Log for #openttd on 6th May 2020:
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01:54:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #8116: Old patchpack savegame versions will soon overlap
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03:27:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue
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03:52:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue
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08:52:43  <_dp_> good morning...
08:53:04  <LordAro> :(
08:53:22  <LordAro> guess we should release 1.10.2, huh?
08:53:51  <_dp_> I don't think it will help
08:54:23  <_dp_> As far as I understand that vehicle desync that's not it
08:54:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8113: Codechange: Use a dynamic copyright year
08:54:46  <LordAro> well we need another set of debug save files then
08:54:57  <LordAro> (assuming it's not whatever changes you've made, of course)
08:55:41  <_dp_> it's similar to reddit logs, players get desynced immediately after joining
08:56:32  <LordAro> have you tried reproducing with the server save? you make it sound like it'd be easy to reproduce..
08:57:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8111: Fix: reset roadtype/streetcartype info for non-road bridges
09:02:40  <_dp_> LordAro, ehm, what save? at's also pretty random as it more or less worked for a month and then this happened
09:03:03  <_dp_> and ofc it all happened when I was alseep and server already restarted on schedule :/
09:03:17  <LordAro> _dp_: as in, the save that the server was running
09:09:36  <_dp_> I only have this save
09:09:52  <_dp_> it's one minute before sabi desyncs but that may've been vehicle desync
09:11:05  <_dp_> instadesyncs start like 2 hours later
09:14:25  <LordAro> really need a proper reproducer to do anything about it
09:14:29  <_dp_> also not everyone desyncs, some players are fine while some can't connect
09:14:35  <LordAro> until then, it could just be a broken client and/or server
09:16:56  <_dp_> I'll try to at least save command log next time
09:18:25  <_dp_> also chris should be able to tell how it is from player pov once he wakes up
09:18:46  <_dp_> coz afaik so far there are 0 reports from players somehow, even on reddit %)
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10:52:40  <Samu> random graph about priority queues
10:53:29  <Samu> that legend didn't fit :(
10:54:41  <Samu> priority queue 2 hasn't finished yet
10:54:52  <Samu> will ruin the graph once it finishes anyway
10:57:55  <Samu> those numbers are ticks
10:59:09  <Samu> ticks needed to road pathfind from the center of 9 towns to the center of the others, looping all towns
10:59:18  <Yexo> To me this looks like an argument *against* a native priority queue. A gain of about 20% over an optimized squirrel implementation isn't very much, and the more C++ objects there are the more difficult fixing things like #6322 will become
10:59:18  <Samu> english :(
10:59:43  <Samu> 6322? let me look
10:59:58  <Yexo> tracking memory used by squirrel/AI
11:00:41  <Yexo> Samu: have you experimented with the estimate function yet? If not, try returning 1.2 times whatever the estimate function returns by default.
11:01:13  <Yexo> The pathfinder will find paths much quicker, but it will find slightly less optimal paths (up to 1.2 times the cost)
11:05:06  <Samu> im using an estimate of 1
11:05:11  <Samu> multiplier
11:05:23  <Samu> the original road pathfinder doesn't have this estimate, so it's 1
11:06:07  <Samu> i experimented it on my canal pathfinder, it's great! it's like magic
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11:09:46  <Samu> PR#8091 is the real winner
11:10:38  <Samu> the AIList Sorted List based ones look like they perform identical to it, but in reality, it devours memory :(
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11:22:31  <Samu> they* devour
11:24:24  <Samu> terron priority queue is surprisingly better than I expected
11:24:36  <Samu> i have to investigate its workings better
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12:09:10  <Samu> priority queue 2 result finished! lel
12:09:15  <andythenorth> someone ask peter if it's lunch pls
12:09:18  <andythenorth> I am hungry
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12:17:26  <planetmaker> is it... lunch?
12:20:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: yes
12:48:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
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12:52:21  <mcbanhas> hello
12:52:44  <mcbanhas> can I get some feedback on this? I'm almost finishing it.
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13:04:24  <Samu> i can gain a little few more ticks by using _count
13:04:36  <Samu> 12780 in the graph becomes 12768
13:05:13  <Samu> let me veirfy
13:07:00  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: > If referring to the player, always try to use sentence structures that address players as "you". < doesn't seem relevant under "Bias-free communication"
13:08:32  <FLHerne> Some of the other suggestions don't apply to any texts that exist in OpenTTD, but future-proofing can't hurt...
13:08:56  <mcbanhas> I gotta rephrase that. I'm referring to the issues with he-she pronounds. The M$ MoS describes it a bit better:
13:09:04  <mcbanhas> Yeah, I'm future proofing it, pretty much
13:09:28  <mcbanhas> Mainly because at some point, I would like to propose and write an in-game manual.
13:09:39  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The screenshot for "Descriptive texts" violates its own guideline re. ending in a period ;-)
13:10:52  <mcbanhas> Last sentence of tooltips are an exception. You can see it on the formatting tooltips section.
13:11:03  <mcbanhas> Although I should reword that, thanks.
13:11:07  <FLHerne> (also, I don't think the text is optimal, but that's a different thing)
13:11:20  <FLHerne> Ok, then I think that's a mistake
13:11:28  <Samu> confirmed
13:11:30  <FLHerne> At least for longer tooltips
13:11:40  <mcbanhas> What do you mean?
13:11:45  <mcbanhas> Not ending in a period?
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13:11:53  <FLHerne> Yes
13:12:01  <supermop_Home> yo
13:12:40  <mcbanhas> Most tooltips in game have that. The last sentence almost never ends in a period, so I just made a rule out of it.
13:12:49  <FLHerne> Specifically, that with multiple sentences the preceding ones have periods, but not the last one
13:13:10  <mcbanhas> It's easily fixable though.
13:13:34  <FLHerne> I think ignoring periods for single-sentence tooltips is fine, and maybe better
13:14:11  <FLHerne> But having periods on some but not all sentences in a text is definitely wrong
13:14:30  <mcbanhas> That's not a bad idea, because then we could distinguish between title-only tooltips and description only tooltips.
13:15:03  <mcbanhas> Well, it's not wrong if you make a rule out of it XD
13:15:23  <FLHerne> It's wrong in that I find it disconcerting to read :P
13:16:08  <mcbanhas> It's totally fixable though. Although I will have to redo most tooltips screenshot examples all over ahaha
13:16:12  <FLHerne> Pedantically, "FAQ" is an initialism and not an acronym. No-one cares though.
13:17:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients
13:17:52  <FLHerne> Why is BaNaNaS called that? It's a terrible name :-/
13:18:29  <mcbanhas> It's not up to me to question that. xD
13:18:55  <FLHerne> "Base graphics/sound And Newgrfs And Noais And Scenarios."
13:19:06  <FLHerne> Even the explanation has bizarre and inconsistent casing
13:19:16  <FLHerne> (both within itself, and with the acronym)
13:20:20  <FLHerne> I disagree with the "Extended Generic Road Vehicle and Tram Set or eGRVTS is a newgrf vehicle set by Zephyris."
13:20:30  <FLHerne> No-one calls it that
13:20:51  <mcbanhas> call it what?
13:20:55  <FLHerne> I doubt a majority of users even know the full name
13:21:05  <mcbanhas> it's just a dummy example man
13:21:09  <FLHerne> "Extended Generic Road Vehicle and Tram Set"
13:21:31  <mcbanhas> I took that one from the wiki actually:
13:22:15  <mcbanhas>
13:22:18  <FLHerne> Ok, but I think the principle is wrong
13:22:32  <FLHerne> Yes, I know what it is
13:22:53  <mcbanhas> It's an example, if you can think of a better one, let me know
13:23:21  <FLHerne> Making a sentence twice as long, and including a full name that no-one actually uses, isn't worth it just to avoid a lowercase first letter
13:23:54  <FLHerne> To be fair, I see someone called the wiki article that
13:25:02  <FLHerne> "...on the link down below." <- redundant, just "below"?
13:25:33  <FLHerne> There's an inconsistency between examples
13:25:36  <FLHerne> > The Dash is a diesel multiple unit (DMU) available since 1984
13:25:47  <FLHerne> > The EMU (electric multiple unit) is a type of train
13:26:11  <FLHerne> Should the acronym or the spelled-out version go first?
13:26:24  <mcbanhas> Yeah, I forgot to fix that one, thanks
13:26:27  <FLHerne> Possibly there should be a rule for that, it's a fairly common case
13:26:41  <FLHerne> (unless there is one and I've not got to it)
13:26:50  <FLHerne> I prefer the first one, incidentally
13:28:16  <Samu> how much code magic is in this sentence? return !_count-- ? null : _queue.pop()[0];
13:28:27  <FLHerne> Samu: Too much
13:28:55  <Samu> but it's faster
13:29:15  <glx> speed would be the same with parenthesis
13:29:40  <Samu> my main issue is what if :count becomes -1
13:29:56  <Samu> next time it checks, it tries to _queue.pop() instead :|
13:29:59  <glx> !(-1) is false
13:30:09  <Samu> yes, that's bad
13:30:22  <FLHerne> Samu: Why not just reverse it?
13:30:42  <FLHerne> `return _count-- ? _queue.pop()[0] : null
13:30:44  <FLHerne> `
13:31:03  <glx> same problem with -1 ;)
13:31:13  <glx> but easier to read :)
13:31:44  <FLHerne> _count-- > 0?
13:31:51  <FLHerne> I guess it could overflow, eventually
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13:33:39  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: There's also an inconsistency in the tooltip examples
13:33:57  <mcbanhas> Yes?
13:34:17  <FLHerne> "Clear all objects" vs "Place%bs%b a railway bridge"
13:34:28  <FLHerne> Nope, my formatting is broken
13:34:43  <FLHerne> But anyway, pick a tense
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13:35:48  <mcbanhas> I had that one noted already, but thanks.
13:36:05  <FLHerne> "Clear ...", "Place ..." probably better?
13:36:18  <mcbanhas> I set a rule for that I think
13:36:31  <mcbanhas> Check the writing section for tooltips.
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13:37:05  <mcbanhas> But yeah, preferably third person minus pronoun
13:37:17  <mcbanhas> So clears
13:38:53  <FLHerne> I hadn't got to that yet ;-)
13:38:59  <FLHerne> (still haven't)
13:40:08  <FLHerne> "March the 3rd" is a can of worms about date formatting :P
13:40:47  <mcbanhas> It's the current formatting
13:40:56  <mcbanhas> Well technically is 3rd of March
13:41:12  <mcbanhas> so I'll amend that example
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13:41:35  <LordAro> i don't think it should have "of" or "the" in it
13:41:40  <mcbanhas> It doesn't
13:41:46  <mcbanhas> I'll fix the example
13:42:07  <FLHerne> In-game date is just "3rd Mar 2020"
13:42:26  <mcbanhas> Yes
13:42:36  <FLHerne> Which should probably have a period, given it's an abbreviation...
13:43:07  <FLHerne> I didn't see anything explicitly about preferred spelling
13:43:29  <mcbanhas> It would look a bit jarring though. I would be a good exception.
13:43:40  <mcbanhas> I haven't set rules for abbreviations, tbh, just acronyms
13:43:52  <FLHerne> The MoS itself uses US/Oxford spelling, so I guess that implies it
13:45:23  <mcbanhas> The manual is intended to cover both US/UK variants, sorta like the M$ Style Guide, but I can include a section for regional spelling, yes. :)
13:46:11  <mcbanhas> Although it would be little more than a reference to a couple of major dictionaries.
13:47:23  <glx> US is managed by translators
13:48:24  <mcbanhas> In an ideal world we would have a style guide for EVERY language xD, or least style notes.
13:49:09  <mcbanhas> This is actually a widespread problem in the free software community
13:49:25  <Samu> 12791 ticks, if i get a result lower than this, then _queue.len() ends up being faster overall
13:49:37  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Specifically, in the UK you can have either "recognise" or "recognize", and it looks odd if they're inconsistent
13:49:48  * FLHerne tries to find any examples currently used in-game
13:50:10  <mcbanhas> There are no unifying textual guidelines or manuals of style for Linux
13:50:27  <mcbanhas> It's a mess, someone should do something about it
13:51:36  <mcbanhas> M$ itself only has a general style guide for English, and then style notes for every other language.
13:51:54  <mcbanhas> Which is an elegant solution, although not perfect
13:52:28  <Samu> 12837, wow _queue.len() disappointed
13:52:36  <FLHerne> In-game uses "penalises"
13:53:45  <mcbanhas> I'd frankly prefer using a Z
13:53:57  <FLHerne> I would, too
13:54:08  <LordAro> i'm not sure i would
13:54:10  <LordAro> :p
13:54:31  <FLHerne> That's weird
13:54:43  <FLHerne> Half a stale bread roll just fell down my chimney
13:54:43  <mcbanhas> Tbh, everything is preferable to the current state of in-game text.
13:54:57  <LordAro> penalize is weird
13:55:00  <LordAro> penalise is not
13:55:10  <glx> french translation in windows is sometimes very bad
13:55:23  <FLHerne> I guess a seagull must have dropped its lunch
13:55:27  <glx> and it's worse since win10
13:56:11  <LordAro> FLHerne: or someone is throwing bread at you
13:56:31  <LordAro> purely on the ise vs ize front, english.txt is internally consistent as best as i can tell
13:56:41  <mcbanhas> glx, that's surprising to hear. The French academy goes to great lengths to ensure they don't rely on neologisms and keep all the software lingo up to date. Apparently the translators don't seem to follow then.
13:56:53  <LordAro> ( grep -o "\b[A-Za-z]*i[zs]e[A-Za-z]*\b" src/lang/english.txt | sort )
13:57:03  <FLHerne> They'd have to throw it pretty accurately to get it down my chimney
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13:58:15  <mcbanhas> "Half a stale bread roll just fell down my chimney" <- This is the most British thing I've read in a while xD
13:58:50  <glx> mcbanhas: for some time "update history" in windows update window was translated "mettre à jour l'historique" while it should be "historique des mises à jour"
13:58:54  <FLHerne> LordAro: Except that it has both "authorized" and "unauthorised" :P
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13:59:14  <LordAro> FLHerne: ah right, yes
13:59:25  <LordAro> authorised, imo
13:59:37  <FLHerne> LordAro: Adding `| uniq` to your command helps
14:00:02  * LordAro adds -u out of spite
14:00:43  <mcbanhas> glx, ouch, that's really bad
14:01:23  <FLHerne> LordAro: Oh, handy
14:01:32  <glx> and it was correct before win10 (now it's fixed btw), but it's weird they could mess like that
14:02:33  <mcbanhas> Facebook also messes up translations quite often
14:03:21  <milek7> aliexpress is ridiculously bad ;P
14:03:55  <glx> less surprising :)
14:04:24  * mcbanhas used to work for a Facebook localization contractor
14:05:14  <Samu> 12768 with overflow, or 12791 with code correctness
14:05:40  <glx> I know for most games the translators only receive the strings without context, but for an OS it should be different
14:06:44  <nielsm> hm, MicroProse is back as a game publisher, with some of the original people at the top... I wonder if that will mean anything for the TT copyrights and trademarks
14:06:46  <mcbanhas> Yeah, but localization always takes a low priority in software development
14:07:11  <mcbanhas> What really?
14:07:31  <mcbanhas> Well, Chris Sawyer Games owns TT now I think
14:07:48  <glx> chris sawyer agency handles them yes
14:07:50  <nielsm> ah yeah the 2013 mobile game definitely used the name :)
14:07:57  <nielsm> right
14:08:07  <mcbanhas> X-Com is owned by 2K
14:08:44  <mcbanhas> Microprose possibly still has the rights for all the flight simulators
14:09:32  <mcbanhas> nielsm, can you link me to news about the Microprose return?
14:09:55  <nielsm> just saw the headline on slashdot
14:10:13  <nielsm> (I haven't clicked through to slashdot in don't-know-how-long, just reading headlines via RSS)
14:10:32  <mcbanhas> this is what I found
14:10:41  <Yexo> mcbanhas: you give an example on how to spell out acronyms ("diesel multiple unit (DMU)") but then under "General capitalization rules" swap the order ("The EMU (electric multiple unit) is")
14:10:45  <mcbanhas> They're doing military stuff again. Back to the roots I guess
14:11:13  <mcbanhas> Yexo, that was already noted by FLHerne, but thanks :)
14:14:01  <mcbanhas> This is a very interesting development. They're completely returning to their roots. They probably found out the niche market can pay off, since Paradox has been making a ton of money with 4x stuff.
14:15:06  <mcbanhas> And besides they do have the expertise and a lot of former military personnel in their contacts.
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14:17:35  <milek7> for what reason games still need 'publisher' now?
14:17:49  <Yexo> mcbanhas: under "UI labels": "as little words" should be "as few words" I think
14:18:39  <milek7> it's not like they need to press CDs and ship boxes around the world
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14:19:21  <glx> milek7: to have money to develop
14:19:40  <glx> and handle all the paperwork
14:20:35  <mcbanhas> Yes, exactly wht glx just said
14:21:00  <mcbanhas> Publishers handle certification with online platforms for example
14:21:27  <glx> and now crowdfunding is mainly used to prove there's a demand so a publisher can enter in the loop
14:22:03  <mcbanhas> If you want to publish your game on a console, there's a lot of hoops you gotta jump through. Games need to be thoroughly tested and found to be in compliance with ESRB, PEGI and other rating authorities,
14:22:08  <mcbanhas> Publishers handle all that crap.
14:23:14  <mcbanhas> They also handle producing roles and establish development milestones, coordinate progress, suggest adding/removing features as p/ time constraints and budgets.
14:23:55  <mcbanhas> And playtesting of course. :)
14:24:11  * mcbanhas briefly worked as a producer for a publisher.
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15:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause>  <mcbanhas> There are no unifying textual guidelines or manuals of style for Linux <-- i smell a coming
15:15:22  <mcbanhas> That's why I disagree with the "just fork" mentality
15:16:09  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: self fulfilling prophecy
15:17:06  <milek7> to be honest, I don't find it significant problem
15:17:52  <milek7> I don't even notice half-translated polish/english ui :P
15:18:32  <Samu>
15:18:34  <Samu> interesting
15:22:46  <Samu> you already had your own github thingy apparently
15:22:53  <Samu> under your domain
15:23:03  <Samu> but you moved to github
15:24:27  <LordAro> "your own github thingy"
15:24:30  <LordAro> oh Samu...
15:24:37  <Yexo> Go even further back and that code was hosted in an svn repo somehwere on
15:25:51  <SpComb> kalliteha version 0.3.3, released in 2017
15:25:57  <SpComb> I can see why
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16:02:49  <FLHerne> is amazing
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16:06:03  <FLHerne> (and wholly incompatible with any reasonable Manual of Style)
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16:25:26  <Wolf01> FLHerne: nice video :D
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16:58:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #35: PR of the day
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17:41:10  <andythenorth> is it beer time?
17:44:12  <arikover> Definitely.
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:33:15  <Wolf01> wtf Apple
18:43:27  <mcbanhas> Does it have anything to do with apple's transition to Metal?
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19:10:29  <Samu> I think I found a way to make my "Native Heap" aka Sorted List to not consume memory,
19:10:40  <Samu> but... it may consume cpu, have to check
19:12:05  <glx> Wolf01: yeah they marked OpenGL deprecated a long time ago
19:12:40  <TrueBrain> "not" consume memory? I call bullshit :D
19:13:50  <Samu> not cpu heavy, i meant
19:14:01  <TrueBrain> and yet it may consume cpu
19:14:03  <Samu> oh, that, yes
19:14:05  <TrueBrain> wow ... inception
19:15:30  <Samu> gonna post the source code soon, just making sure it's working as it should first
19:17:15  <Samu> I have an "enumerator" to generate the item #id, so that i could put it as an item in the AIList
19:17:38  <Samu> the real item itself is stored in a table
19:17:48  <TrueBrain> which is memory-less? :D
19:18:03  <TrueBrain> I have a box, and that compresses ANY movie 10 times better than any known algorithm
19:18:06  <TrueBrain> it is an amazing box
19:18:42  <Samu> this enumerator starts from 0, and each time the insert is called, it is increased by 1
19:18:47  <TrueBrain> ( for who are not getting the reference)
19:19:10  <Samu> it never decreases
19:19:12  <TrueBrain> sometimes Samu , your programming powers impress me; but in reality, please buy a book on algorithms :)
19:20:30  <Samu> random screenshot [img][/img]
19:22:10  <Samu> it's the AI 9, i called the queue SortedList
19:22:34  <Samu> it's not using much memory, and is getting closer to the performance of PR#8091
19:22:53  <TrueBrain> not much? But it wasn't using memory before :( YOU LIED TO ME :'( Jan, go back in your corner, you lied too :(
19:23:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
19:23:09  <Samu> which could mean... PR#8091 could be closed, and not merged
19:23:34  <Samu> still making sure i can use the Exists function
19:23:35  <TrueBrain> but seriously; you are heavily reinventing wheels here. If that is your fun, continue on. But many books are written about this .. picking up one might help you improve even further ;)
19:24:19  <Samu> I don't like books :(
19:24:49  <TrueBrain> I am sure that is mutual; nevertheless, reinventing stuff isn't really a definition of progress ;)
19:25:17  <frosch123> are you discussing using /dev/null as backup?
19:27:15  <frosch123> <- found it
19:29:20  <Wolf01> I prefer the S4
19:30:02  <Wolf01>
19:33:37  <Samu> i got the idea based of Trans AI, of fanioz
19:34:04  <Samu> he used the tile as the ID, but that sounds to me like a bad idea
19:34:56  <Samu> i reworked it, and instead of tile id, i use the enumerator to generate the unique id
19:38:23  <Samu> this way, the queue can be used for several kinds of items, not just a queue that includes a tile
19:38:37  <Wolf01> meh :|
19:39:02  <Samu> he calls it key
19:39:38  <Samu> I dunno what to call it, so i called it _tracker
19:39:52  <Samu> maybe _enumerator would be better
19:40:07  <Samu> or _count
19:40:18  <Samu> but it's a _count that never decreases
19:40:45  <Samu> _enumerator sounds better
19:42:55  <frosch123> well known people :)
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19:58:35  <TrueBrain> you have a commit to fix frosch123  :P
19:59:00  <frosch123> only one?
19:59:11  <TrueBrain> <- I wonder if this will reach him tbh
19:59:13  <TrueBrain> don't know
19:59:44  <TrueBrain> on the other hand, that scenario only existed for a second; we could also just remove it
20:00:13  <frosch123> just implement upgrades for scenarios and heightmaps
20:00:22  <TrueBrain> "just" :D
20:00:30  <frosch123> the "age" is irrelevant, you cannot download scenarios/heightmaps for old savegames anyway
20:00:37  <TrueBrain> but that wont solve this entry ;)
20:01:08  <frosch123> didn't you assign the same unique-id to scenario upgrades in the data migration?
20:01:27  <frosch123> so, instead of the replaced-by you could also move them to the same unique-id
20:01:45  <frosch123> or that can be postponed till the api supports the upgrades
20:01:56  <frosch123> since then multiple may get migrated
20:02:46  <frosch123> anyway, i would recommend to not look too deeply into individual entires. that way leads to madness :)
20:03:02  <TrueBrain> but still .. this entry needs a resolution ;)
20:03:30  <frosch123> it's one of many
20:03:31  <TrueBrain> (follow the link in the PR to understand why :P)
20:03:47  <TrueBrain>
20:04:04  <TrueBrain> this is not one of many. This is one ;)
20:04:16  <frosch123> well, did you miss the other two guys who renamed have of their chaos grfs to "zzz  ignore"
20:04:26  <TrueBrain> yes, but they are not "new-games"
20:04:50  <TrueBrain> owh, some are .. they also need fixing in that case ;)
20:04:58  <TrueBrain> allowing to rename has this as side-effect
20:05:20  <frosch123> TrueBrain: as said, i would recommend to ignore them
20:05:31  <TrueBrain> I rather start with a cleanup :)
20:05:44  <frosch123> they prefer to abuse the tools they have, you can't win that
20:06:04  <TrueBrain> no, this is not abuse as such; this is not having better tools available and seeing this as only solution
20:06:07  <TrueBrain> which I fully understand
20:06:17  <TrueBrain> we need to deal with it in some matter
20:06:41  <frosch123> sure, but do that by implementing stuff in the api, not by fixing stuff manually :)
20:06:57  <TrueBrain> you don't pay my subscription :P
20:07:06  <TrueBrain> and clearly, I already wrote this PR ;)
20:07:56  <frosch123> well, i expect those PRs will take more time than migrating all authors :)
20:08:24  <TrueBrain> I mostly wonder how we can get in touch with authors .. mainly as the display-name is not migrated
20:08:29  <TrueBrain> that might be a bit challenging
20:09:06  <frosch123> yeah, no idea what to do with the displayname
20:09:46  <frosch123> i don't like to make it freely editable via a user profile. it should rather get updated everytime the package/version in edited/updated/added
20:10:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo merged pull request #8111: Fix: reset roadtype/streetcartype info for non-road bridges
20:12:06  <frosch123> originally i wondered whether we would add other oauth providers. but considering how popular gh is among the current bananas users, it's best to stay with one
20:12:28  <frosch123> i definitely did not expect 95% of people to already have a gh account
20:14:54  <Yexo> or the people without gh account are not asking for a migration (yet)
20:15:08  <frosch123> oh, i missed to mention the fun-fact. the two people who used the "z-ignore" have very similar gh/forum/ottd names, and make similar content... so i conspirated about a split personality :p
20:15:58  <frosch123> Yexo: many scenario/heightmap people were also on gh
20:17:44  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I did the same! I even double-checked if that was the case :D :D :D
20:27:50  <frosch123> hmm, should we host bananas awards? vote for the best ai/vehicle grf/heightmap/... ?
20:28:39  <frosch123> i am searching for a way to emphasise good content, that does not require a lot of moderation
20:29:14  <glx> a simple rating system ?
20:29:47  <frosch123> that's hard to do with our public gh storage
20:30:12  <frosch123> too many commits, too much personal information, too much drama
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20:31:12  <andythenorth> allow personal curators
20:31:15  <andythenorth> move the drama left
20:31:16  <frosch123> the bananas2 draft had a star-rating free for everyone, but it was private
20:31:24  <andythenorth> give people channels
20:31:33  <andythenorth> ratings are a disaster
20:32:50  <frosch123> yes, i do not want a continuous rating number. just a "this was considered good somewhen" badge
20:33:24  <frosch123> send new people to few good entries, let people dive into the mess if they want
20:34:27  <nielsm> also "this item works well with this other item"
20:35:02  <frosch123> that's not useful on bananas, you can't see that after download in the configuration guis
20:35:10  <nielsm> hm
20:35:22  <nielsm> then make that happen!
20:35:47  <nielsm> but sleeptime, gn
20:35:51  <frosch123> the bananas2 draft contained a content-type "newgrf-profile"
20:38:18  <frosch123> <- andythenorth: do you want that for 1M firs downloads?
20:39:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #8117: Memory leak: All incoming admin port packets leaked
20:39:30  <andythenorth> frosch123 we should
20:41:34  <Samu> is anyone into this kind of music? the one that starts at 18:58
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20:46:01  <glx> <-- good idea or not ?
20:46:58  <Samu> Station* st ?
20:46:58  <LordAro> glx: might as well
20:47:07  <LordAro> good catch Samu :p
20:47:15  <glx> stupid msvc :)
20:47:32  <frosch123> moving stuff into afterload.cpp is always good
20:47:45  <frosch123> conversions in other files are the biggest headache
20:48:19  <Samu> that was my PR :(
20:48:27  <Samu> I already deleted it
20:48:29  <glx> it was good
20:48:30  <Samu> branch
20:48:42  <glx> just now we have an improved way
20:50:17  <glx> Samu: and the unconditionnal fix was my idea ;)
20:50:29  <Samu> ah yes
20:50:43  <Samu> but I deleted the branch
20:50:48  <Samu> once it got merge
20:51:22  <frosch123> why is it related to SLV_ENDING_YEAR, and not SLV_MULTITILE_DOCKS ?
20:51:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing
20:52:29  <glx> because the bug touched all savegames between both version
20:52:44  <Yexo> Nice. I was already wondering why there are so many AfterLoad* functions called unconditionally
20:52:52  <frosch123> glx: ok, can you add a comment then :)
20:54:05  <frosch123> Yexo: looks like people stopped adding stuff to InitializeWindowsAndCaches
20:54:35  <frosch123> it used to be the last and only call for stuff that is not stored and needs recomputing
20:54:56  <Samu> 10689
21:04:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing
21:05:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing
21:06:25  <glx> I wonder if some desyncs are multitile related
21:06:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing
21:07:45  <frosch123> glx: it would explain desyncs shortly after join
21:09:01  <frosch123> glx: if you have the suspicion that something is still broken, one could add recomputation of the dock areas to CheckCaches()
21:10:43  <LordAro> how would multitiles cause desyncs?
21:11:39  <glx> incorrect update in some functions causing different ship pathfinding result
21:11:39  <frosch123> the area is update incrementally during commands. but recomputed from scratch when loading a savegame
21:11:52  <frosch123> so, if the incremental updates are wrong, the new joining client desyncs
21:13:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing
21:15:07  <Yexo> I don't see how 'RemoveDockingTile' does any removing. Am I missing something or is that function name wrong/misleading?
21:15:33  <Samu> UnflagDockingTile
21:15:38  <Samu> better name
21:17:38  <frosch123> i think a "docking tile" is a tile adjacent to a station tile, where the ship will stop
21:17:58  <Yexo> Yes, that seems to match how I understand the code now
21:18:01  <frosch123> so RemoveDockingTile is called for tiles which are no longer water
21:18:22  <Yexo> That is one tricky thing to keep correct, very easy to miss a case there
21:19:44  <frosch123> yes, sounds like adding some validation to CheckCaches would be a good thing
21:22:22  <Samu> which one is gonna be faster? _sorter.RemoveItem(ret); VERSUS _sorter.RemoveTop(1);
21:23:45  <frosch123> yep, IsPossibleDockingTile is missing MP_TREES at least
21:24:11  <frosch123> hmm, no, those tiles are not traversible
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21:28:39  <Yexo> Ships can dock from within the lower part of a lock to a dock to the side
21:28:43  <Yexo> Not sure if that's intended
21:29:14  <glx> hmm there's no easy way to compare 2 TileArea
21:29:16  <frosch123> isn't GetTileTrackStatus checking for that?
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21:29:38  <Yexo> frosch123: It doesn't get any direction
21:29:52  <Yexo> So it can't check that
21:30:29  <frosch123> oh, ok, in that case it also applies to ship depots :)
21:30:49  <glx> and the docking status of the tile on map must be checked too
21:31:01  <frosch123> and docks below aqueducts :)
21:31:59  <Yexo> a dock below an aqueduct is not allowed
21:32:47  <frosch123> too bad :) so only dock next to aqueduct
21:33:03  <frosch123> quite sure some pp enabled bridges over stations
21:33:55  <frosch123> ah, no docking against the slope part, so master is save
21:34:15  <Yexo> "slope part" = sides of the dock?
21:34:39  <frosch123> the tile on shore
21:34:51  <Yexo> Ah
21:35:07  <frosch123> IsValidDockingDirectionForDock is actually quite picky
21:35:17  <frosch123> only two tiles per dock
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21:38:57  <frosch123> hmm IsValidDockingDirectionForDock is only used in some places
21:39:16  <frosch123> doesn't UpdateStationDockingTiles just ignore htose restrictions? and adds all tiles?
21:40:50  <Yexo> It calls CheckForDockingTile for all tiles, but CheckForDockingTile does contain the check
21:43:44  <frosch123> hmm, luckily freeform edges are enabled by default. otherwise i think it could leave the map on the north border
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21:45:57  <Yexo> Remind me, is north top-right or top-left?
21:46:10  <frosch123> luaduck: _dp_: do people use ships on your servers, or are they banned as uncool?
21:46:20  <frosch123> Yexo: both :)
21:46:32  <Yexo> :p
21:46:40  <frosch123> both NW and NE have no MP_VOID when freeform is disabled
21:47:03  <Yexo> Where would that be a problem?
21:47:24  <frosch123> UpdateStationDockingTiles starts from a valid tile, and calls CheckForDockingTile for all neighbouring water tiles
21:47:35  <frosch123> CheckForDockingTile checks all neighbouring tiles again
21:47:59  <frosch123> so CheckForDockingTile can jump by distance 2 from the station, when the tile in between is MP_WATER
21:48:08  <frosch123> which is the case for non-freeform
21:48:15  <Yexo> I see
21:48:45  <_dp_> frosch123, for the most part they're allowed but limited to like 25 per company
21:49:03  <_dp_> frosch123, but if you're looking for desync it happened on server with no ships at all
21:49:25  <frosch123> ok, that's what i wanted to know :)
21:51:16  <_dp_> for desync I suspect some company id or client id shenanigans
21:51:32  <_dp_> only something like that can explain all the weirdness afaict
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21:52:48  <Yexo> I think I found a ship-related desync none-the-less
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21:53:08  <Yexo> Building half-rail tiles next to a dock
21:54:25  <Yexo> CmdBuildSingleRail correctly keeps the docking-tile status intact, but I don't think CmdBuildRailroadTrack does
21:55:11  <Yexo> After building a diagonal rail (multiple in one click) that goes past the end of the dock, a ship refuses to dock there. Saving/loading the game resolves that, the ship can dock again
21:55:56  <luaduck> frosch123: quite often actually
21:56:14  <luaduck> often enough that we had to introduce a minimum buoys rule
21:56:26  <luaduck> to stop the pathfinder nomming the entire CPU
21:59:38  <andythenorth> is bedtime?
22:00:59  <Yexo> Tested locally, I can immediately trigger a desync with such a savegame
22:01:04  <Yexo> Becomes impossible to join the server
22:01:33  <frosch123> nice :)
22:04:06  * andythenorth tests bed :)
22:04:12  <andythenorth> bye
22:04:16  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:06:32  <frosch123> Yexo: ah, it only calls SetDockingTile, but it never notifies the station
22:07:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo opened issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end
22:07:48  <Yexo> Too late to fix now
22:07:53  <Yexo> As in, soon time for bed
22:09:16  <glx> <-- untested
22:09:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end
22:09:51  <Yexo> There is another inconsistency related to docks and halftiles: after building the dock I can create a half-tile at the end by raising the land, but if the half-tile already exists I can't build the dock
22:10:14  <Yexo> Which also means there are situations where if you buildoze an existing dock you can't rebuild it without extra terraforming
22:10:24  <frosch123> yes, that's an old issue
22:10:58  <frosch123> it was like that in ttd, since ships headed to the tile  in line with the dock
22:11:12  <frosch123> but apparently IsValidDockingDirectionForDock now does the opposite
22:11:21  <frosch123> so the builddock check should be changed as well
22:13:11  <Yexo> Is that a quick fix? Otherwise I'll create another issue to not forget
22:13:30  <frosch123> please make an issue, it's also bed time for me :)
22:14:03  <frosch123> night
22:14:05  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:14:10  <Yexo> glx: looks reasonable
22:14:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
22:14:40  <Yexo> Have you tested it on the scenario from Does it catch that?
22:15:32  <glx> getting the file
22:16:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo opened issue #8121: Cannot rebuild just buildozed dock
22:24:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
22:26:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
22:26:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end
22:28:01  <Yexo> LordAro: see above: <_dp_> frosch123, but if you're looking for desync it happened on server with no ships at all
22:31:20  <LordAro> ah
22:31:40  <LordAro> though that could be the other desync :p
22:31:50  <Yexo> Yes, absolutely
22:34:55  <_dp_> even on reddit not all new clients desync, some connect just fine
22:42:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
22:42:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
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23:04:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
23:04:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
23:05:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
23:14:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check
23:35:03  <LordAro> glx: worth adding #8120 to the backport list, do you think?
23:35:14  <glx> I did
23:35:19  <LordAro> :)
23:35:20  <glx> 2 minutes ago :)
23:51:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8122: Fix #8117: Memory leak in admin port
23:52:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8122: Fix #8117: Memory leak in admin port

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