Log for #openttd on 10th May 2020:
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00:02:53  <mcbanhas> Ok, thanks for the tip
00:19:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
00:20:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
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01:05:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Andrew350 opened issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches
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03:03:12  <TooTallTyler> Hello everyone. I'm having trouble with NML and have been directed here. I'm trying to create an error message if my house set is loaded on Sub-Arctic climate, since it doesn't have any snow sprites. I can only get the message to appear when I set the level to FATAL -- nothing happens at lower settings. I'd still like it to load, but warn players that the climate is not supported. What am I doing wrong?
03:03:32  <TooTallTyler> Here is the code, which appears immediately after the grf block:
03:03:33  <TooTallTyler> if (climate == CLIMATE_ARCTIC)
03:03:33  <TooTallTyler> {error(FATAL, string(ERROR_REQUIRE_TEMPERATE));}
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03:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> TooTallTyler: lower level error messages get displayed in the NewGRF window, not as a red box
03:40:40  <TooTallTyler> Thanks. Is there any way to show the player a pop-up error while still loading the NewGRF?
03:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
03:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "missing snow sprites" would qualify as a "warning" level severity in my view
03:49:58  <TooTallTyler> Agreed. Thanks.
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04:00:15  <TooTallTyler> Does anyone know a better way to check for the presence of a nearby house class than a cascade of switch blocks? Some type of loop maybe? "nearest_house_matching_criterion" would be ideal if we could define a different class or ID, but it's limited to the same as the item making the check. Here's what I've got for low-density houses to keep them from building near office buildings (class 2):
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_8, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,-1)){258: return 0;return 1;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_7, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,1)) {258: return 0;office_space_8;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_6, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,0)) {258: return 0;office_space_7;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_5, nearby_tile_house_class(1,-1))	{258: return 0;office_space_6;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_4, nearby_tile_house_class(1,1))	{258: return 0;office_space_5;}
04:00:23  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_3, nearby_tile_house_class(1,0))	{258: return 0;office_space_4;}
04:00:24  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_2, nearby_tile_house_class(0,-1))	{258: return 0;office_space_3;}
04:00:26  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_1, nearby_tile_house_class(0,1))	{258: return 0;office_space_2;}
04:00:53  <TooTallTyler> Super ugly, and I want to expand the radius but the code starts to get ridiculous
04:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause> please never paste so many lines into a chat, use a pastebin
04:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g.
04:02:32  <TooTallTyler> Will do. I'm new to IRC and coding in general.
04:06:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8132: Crash on loading savegame from #4524 (station related)
04:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't really help you with houses. in general, NewGRFs have no concept of "loops", but the game occasionally uses a concept called "circular tile loop" (where "circle" means "square", on account of using max-distance instead of euclidean)
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04:14:46  <TooTallTyler> I think that's what nearest_house_matching criterion uses, since I define a radius. But it appears to let me search for only houses which match this house's ID, building_class, or GRFID -- unlike nearby_tile_house_class which lets me define a different class.
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06:26:12  <andythenorth> o/
06:26:28  <andythenorth> ENotEnoughSleep
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07:00:31  <Samu> hello
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07:47:05  <andythenorth> so Better Living Through Chemistry
07:47:41  <andythenorth> do I do the existing fill-the-oceans-with-plastic-from-crude-oil-sources-but-life-is-good
07:48:15  <andythenorth> or the emerging-we-really-have-not-scaled-it-yet-recycling-and-bio-plastics-but-life-could-be-better
07:48:17  <andythenorth> ?
07:48:18  <andythenorth>
08:07:59  <nielsm> make two parameters to the grf, "peak oil year" and "recycling transition period in years"
08:09:40  <nielsm> to control when recycling centers begin being built, when new oil extraction industries stop being built, and the output curves of extraction industries
08:09:57  <nielsm> and something with use of fossil fuels as well
08:10:28  <nielsm> that would probably function best as a separate grf, not integrated in FIRS
08:12:44  <andythenorth> parameters exist at one level of depth only currently :)
08:12:59  <andythenorth> so parameters for a specific economy would be clunky in the UI
08:13:16  <nielsm> that's why it would be best as a separate GRF
08:13:17  <andythenorth> and parametric parameters is probably A Bad Idea :)
08:13:42  <andythenorth> 2 economies: Better Living Through Chemistry, Even Better Living Through Chemistry :P
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08:15:07  <nielsm> could have one of them only allow extraction to be built during worldgen and use the "production only decreases" rule (or have a limited supply)
08:15:41  <nielsm> hm that could be interesting :D have a limited supply of raw material, which needs to be recycled for any industry to function at all
08:16:07  <andythenorth> o_O
08:16:15  <nielsm> any cargo deleted is just industry potential lost forever
08:16:20  <nielsm> hardcore mode
08:16:56  <andythenorth> move it in and out of town storage :P
08:17:09  <andythenorth> so towns have a fixed weight / volume of cargo in play
08:17:25  <andythenorth> which can be extracted by the industries in the town area
08:17:33  <nielsm> something like that
08:17:51  <nielsm> teach players to not sell trains with cargo on board
08:18:00  <nielsm> nor let those station ratings drop
08:22:48  <andythenorth> hmm
08:22:56  <andythenorth> arbitrary newgrf regions :|
08:23:04  <andythenorth> that was an idea we haven't pursued :)
08:24:42  <andythenorth> define regions, with circular cargo amounts in them
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08:28:33  <nielsm> maybe stick to simple regions defined by a capital city and the region of a tile is just defined by the nearest capital
08:30:52  <nielsm> add a context for newgrf variables that is "region" rather than "town"
08:36:02  <andythenorth> could work
08:36:33  <andythenorth> I would like industry storage on whole-map, regions, and per town
08:37:00  <andythenorth> and utility monthly cb that runs over each once every n ticks
08:37:08  <andythenorth> monthly / n ticks
08:37:12  <andythenorth> :P
08:40:08  <nielsm> make global storage a hashtable, possibly indexed two levels, by four character codes
08:40:26  <nielsm> and let it be shared between newgrfs (and potentially also GS)
08:41:14  <nielsm> or have a private and a public global storage
08:41:43  <andythenorth> pandemic: global oil production falls :P
08:42:07  <andythenorth> 1000t plastic delivered to town, fishing grounds production falls 10%
08:43:02  <andythenorth> maybe I should just write a GS that is generated by the FIRS compile
08:43:10  <andythenorth> and teach it to reverse engineer which industry is which
08:43:28  <andythenorth> and automate uploading both to Bananas at once
08:43:46  <andythenorth> can GS depend on specific versions of specific grf?
08:44:06  <nielsm> GS can't check for GRFs at all, iirc
08:44:20  <nielsm> apart from indirect stuff like whether a specific cargo label exists
08:44:27  <nielsm> or specific industry exists
08:48:59  <andythenorth> maybe I could put a key industry in, that doesn't build, but GS can find
08:49:13  <andythenorth> with 16 cargos in and 16 out, how many UUIDs can I generate?
08:51:29  <andythenorth> oh also how many combinations of label? :)
08:51:35  <andythenorth> quite a lot of UUIDs?
08:51:49  <andythenorth> so I could force GS to depend on a very specific FIRS industry
08:51:59  <nielsm> I don't think there's really a requirement that labels are printable characters
08:52:09  <nielsm> or valid UTF8 or anythiung
08:52:13  <nielsm> so 2^32 labels
08:52:43  <andythenorth> it will appear in cargo flow etc though
08:52:51  <andythenorth> so it needs to be actually a valid cargo :)
08:53:32  <andythenorth> still lots
08:54:12  <andythenorth> probably enough that I could semver
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09:20:01  <andythenorth> hmm
09:20:10  <andythenorth> plastics industry has start date issue :P
09:20:36  <andythenorth> hydrocarbon-derived plastics are really 1950s onwards :P
09:21:21  <andythenorth> "Rule 1"?
09:23:28  <nielsm> transport fever (2) doesn't really pay attention to that at all
09:23:39  <nielsm> you can build oil->plastics industry in 1850
09:23:54  <andythenorth> Steeltown has electric arc furnace with no date restriction
09:24:02  <andythenorth> Rule 1
09:24:29  <nielsm> just put it in the readme, "if you want realism don't start the game before 1950"
09:25:00  <andythenorth> I did try restricting some industries, but it's one extra level of frustration :)
09:25:07  <andythenorth> it doesn't make a pleasing game
09:27:02  <nielsm> many players don't pay attention to the year anyway, just keep building for thousands of years
09:28:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7623: Support for macOS Catalina.
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10:29:29  <mcbanhas> Good afternoon
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12:20:28  <andythenorth> well
12:20:29  <andythenorth>
12:22:09  <Wolf01> o/
12:22:30  <Wolf01> andythenorth, how is going there?
12:25:12  <Wolf01> Hmm, is Russia trying to reach USA and battle for the first position? Is this a sort of a pity race?
12:28:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01 is going acceptably
12:29:34  <andythenorth> I am confused about lunch though
12:29:43  <andythenorth> somebody un-quit peter pls
12:30:16  <Wolf01> You have my permission to get lunch
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12:42:55  <_dp_> Wolf01, if you mean covid russia just does a lot of testing, on deaths (and so actual infection spread) it's way behind
12:43:50  <mcbanhas> frosch123, can you tell me again what was the problem with adding a period by the end of certain message prompts? I'm not sure I quite understood it how can that lead to inconsistencies with mods.
12:46:29  <Samu> @ports
12:46:29  <DorpsGek> Samu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:59:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
12:59:57  <Samu> hummm
13:00:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
13:01:12  <FLHerne> blathijs: Can you test if ^ solves your problem?
13:03:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version
13:05:30  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The text in prompts can be provided by a NewGRF
13:05:55  <nielsm> can it really? where?
13:06:06  <FLHerne> For example, "Can't build here... This text is from a grf"
13:06:12  <FLHerne> I think?
13:06:14  <nielsm> oh right
13:07:11  <mcbanhas> Do we have any examples where that is happening right now?
13:07:28  <nielsm> I think some ECS industries may be doing that
13:07:44  <nielsm> they can have some very particular construction requirements
13:09:32  <mcbanhas> Hmm, if it's just a couple of mods, then it's a very minor trade off. But if you know of any other examples, I'd like to see.
13:09:54  <FLHerne> FIRS industries have misc. requirements too
13:10:23  <FLHerne> But yes, it's not something that people see much
13:10:46  <mcbanhas> FIRS is in active development, we can just tell the guys to add a period at the end xD
13:10:56  <frosch123> mcbanhas: <- currently green and pink text are consistent. pink people cared a lot about making it look good with the pre-existing green. changing green makes pink look bad
13:12:02  <frosch123> mind that the different text colours in the description of ottd and newgrf settings is a bug in ottd :)
13:12:09  <frosch123> not the fault of the addons
13:12:09  <mcbanhas> Hahaha that's hilarious, their  vehicle list cmds are compatible with my changes
13:12:20  <mcbanhas> but not with the original game
13:12:57  <mcbanhas> All original TTD text in vehicle list is using title capitalization, but their mod is using sentence.
13:14:26  <mcbanhas> And this is also an example of how mods aren't necessarily consistent with current OpenTTD text.
13:14:34  <frosch123> mcbanhas: i would claim that title/sentence capitalisation is only noticed by trained eyes
13:14:55  <FLHerne> Really bad idea: {PERIOD_IF_MISSING} tag :P
13:15:15  <FLHerne> Replaced by "." if the previous character wasn't "."
13:15:34  <nielsm> or ? or !
13:15:38  <mcbanhas> I would claim a period could go just as unnoticed, perhaps even less
13:15:40  <FLHerne> (or was alphanumeric, because ?. would look silly)
13:15:41  <frosch123> FLHerne: don't patronise add-on authors. they really don't like that
13:15:42  <FLHerne> ^
13:15:50  <mcbanhas> The point is, it's already inconsistent.
13:16:05  <mcbanhas> Because mods aren't following any rules.
13:16:07  <FLHerne> frosch123: It would be to solve compatibility with existing grfs
13:16:30  <FLHerne> Maybe _IF_ABSENT would upset them less
13:17:42  <mcbanhas> But tbh I was considered relaxing the rule for periods because of "Vehicle is getting old" messages
13:18:51  <mcbanhas>
13:18:58  <mcbanhas> I'm not sure if a period would go well here
13:21:59  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think I proposed "period if more than one sentence" before
13:22:28  <FLHerne> The problem without trailing periods is when there's one in the middle of the string
13:23:04  <mcbanhas> That's not a bad idea
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13:24:06  <mcbanhas> It would solve woes regarding the use of periods and everybody would get a slice of the cake.
13:24:37  <nielsm> yeah
13:24:44  <nielsm> if there's more than one sentence, always a trailing period
13:25:07  <nielsm> if only one sentence, trailing period is optional but recommended if other strings in same context end with period
13:25:52  <mcbanhas> That settles the matter then, I'll write it in.
13:26:36  <FLHerne> I guess the risk is it just ends up looking inconsistent
13:26:56  <FLHerne> But I think it should be ok
13:32:30  <mcbanhas> I think so too.
13:34:03  <mcbanhas> I'm gonna word it the following way "paragraphs consisting of more than one sentence will always end in a period"
13:34:25  <mcbanhas> *period or an end-of-sentence mark
13:34:39  <FLHerne> or other end-of
13:35:49  <mcbanhas> yes
13:50:23  <LordAro> TrueBrain: mild reminder poke regarding 20.04 compilefarm/OTTD PRs
13:51:09  <michi_cc> Did somebody fix ICU layout for Linux yet?
13:52:00  <glx> no
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13:52:29  <LordAro> it's basically just dead code at this point
14:01:18  <trainathon> LordAro, if it is dead code is it dnot a good idea to remove the code?
14:01:58  <LordAro> basically dead code
14:02:11  <LordAro> that provides useful functionality that hasn't been replaced by anything
14:03:43  <trainathon> ok, that i interpret that wrong
14:04:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: pretty sure others can approve those PRs too :P
14:04:34  <TrueBrain> I am surprised glx hasn't approved them yet :P
14:04:46  <glx> hmm ?
14:04:51  <glx> oh
14:09:57  <mcbanhas> Little controversial change. I'd like to change "Game Options"  to just "Options"
14:10:48  <mcbanhas> Because "Settings" is just that, not "Game Settings"
14:12:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError()
14:13:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] glx22 approved pull request #43: Add: Ubuntu focal image
14:15:11  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I agree, but it's still not clear why/how "Options" and "Settings" are different
14:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbananas we spent years renaming away from "patch settings"
14:15:44  <FLHerne> Of course, I don't think anyone knows that...
14:15:55  <frosch123> mcbanhas: good look explaining people where to find settings if you call them "options" and "settings"
14:16:06  <_dp_> finally an ubuntu update that fixes more than it breaks xD
14:16:09  <frosch123> at least "game options" has a word in front to make it distinct
14:16:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases
14:28:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
14:29:06  <mcbanhas> some more funny English :D
14:30:20  <mcbanhas> "Unmark all contents for download" perhaps?
14:31:50  <FLHerne> That is funny :D
14:31:58  <FLHerne> But "Unmark...for" is weird
14:33:39  <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
14:33:46  <FLHerne> Yes
14:33:53  <LordAro> it's a tooltip, so no issues with length
14:34:05  <FLHerne> I think s/Mark/Select/ everywhere
14:34:17  <FLHerne> Using two different verbs for the same action is confusing
14:34:18  <LordAro> or probably unselect, for consistency with the button
14:34:37  <FLHerne> No, make it Deselect and change the button :P
14:34:47  <LordAro> or that :p
14:35:05  <mcbanhas> The button is "unselect all"
14:35:10  <FLHerne> [15:34][9999][flh ~/]$ isword unselect   -> 'unselect' is not a word!
14:36:27  <mcbanhas> I'd rather use unmark because of this
14:36:29  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:36:29  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
14:36:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Change all instances of "Mark" to "Select", and all uses of "Unmark" or "Unselect" to "Deselect"
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14:37:08  <FLHerne> That's exactly the wrong reasoning IMO
14:37:14  <mcbanhas> Mark/Unmark is a simpler word than select/deselect
14:37:25  <FLHerne> It really isn't
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14:38:08  <FLHerne> In the context of computers, "Select" is the definitive word for that action
14:39:08  <mcbanhas> That's the point. Computer language sounds a bit too mechanical to always use select this, select that
14:39:26  <FLHerne> "Mark" is less clear on its own, and much less clear when "select" is also used to describe the same action
14:39:45  <FLHerne> Seriously, no
14:39:52  <FLHerne> "Select that" is what it does
14:40:49  <FLHerne> Everyone instantly, intuitively knows what "select" in a list does, probably without even reading the word properly
14:41:25  <FLHerne> I see "mark", and suddenly I have to figure out what "marking" does
14:41:36  <FLHerne> Only to find out that it just meant "select" anyway
14:41:39  <LordAro> agreed
14:41:56  <LordAro> mcbanhas: you wanted some native English speakers opinion on this before, maybe you should listen :)
14:42:07  <FLHerne> I mean, I know what "mark" means *in general*
14:42:46  <FLHerne> But in the specific context of a list, "select" has the deeper meaning "choose a set of items to perform an action on"
14:42:48  <mcbanhas> Yeah, but most package managers I'm familiar with use the term "Mark"
14:42:54  <FLHerne> Which "mark" doesn't
14:43:00  <mcbanhas> Here's muon
14:43:01  <mcbanhas>
14:43:07  <mcbanhas> Here's synaptic
14:43:08  <FLHerne> Most Linux package managers are written by weird technical people
14:43:22  <mcbanhas>
14:43:29  <FLHerne> (as was the OTTD content downloader)
14:43:51  <mcbanhas> Well alright
14:43:52  <FLHerne> It has exactly the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve
14:43:54  <LordAro> "Mark for removal/purge" reads better in that context, imo
14:44:43  <mcbanhas> That's sort of the thing. Marking implies making a list of stuff to apply later
14:45:01  <FLHerne> Which is the problem
14:45:02  <mcbanhas> selecting implies picking one more frequently than picking multiple
14:45:26  <mcbanhas> But the thing is that you can select multiple packages in bananas
14:45:27  <FLHerne> "Mark" implies the wrong sort of 'later', IMO
14:46:21  <FLHerne> "select" is used almost universally for multiple items too
14:46:38  <LordAro> yes, you don't mark from a list
14:46:41  <LordAro> you select from a list
14:46:43  <FLHerne> I mark emails as read, or store bookmarks
14:46:54  <FLHerne> To mark something is at least semi-persistent
14:47:56  <FLHerne> beyond just a modal step in the middle of an action
14:48:38  <mcbanhas> so how do we redo "Mark all content to be not downloaded" again?
14:49:02  <FLHerne> <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
14:49:05  <FLHerne> ^agreed
14:49:28  <LordAro> (Or Unselect)
14:49:45  <FLHerne> No, "unselect" isn't a word and we should get rid of it :P
14:52:23  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:52:29  <LordAro> i'm thinking of the translator workload again
14:52:48  <LordAro> lots of changes all at once will mean that changes get missed
14:53:19  <mcbanhas> LordAro, I think I can submit all of the isolated capitalization changes first actually
14:53:42  <mcbanhas> So the rewrites can then be handled separately
14:53:53  <LordAro> :)
14:54:51  <mcbanhas> I mean those rewrites will have capitalization changes of their own, but then it will be much easier
14:55:09  <mcbanhas> and I will leave all punctuation changes to the very last end
14:55:53  <FLHerne> LordAro: I suggested to make the translator ignore the relevant megachanges altogether, do you think that would be sane/feasible?
14:56:03  <mcbanhas> Ok so before we had
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Click on a line to see the details{}Click on the checkbox to select it for downloading
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                  :{BLACK}Select all
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                          :{BLACK}Mark all content to be downloaded
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
14:56:08  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                :{BLACK}Unselect all
14:56:10  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                        :{BLACK}Mark all content to be not downloaded
14:56:15  <mcbanhas> now we have
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Click on a package to see the details. Check the box to select it for download
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                  :{BLACK}Select all
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                          :{BLACK}Select all content to be downloaded
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:56:27  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Select all upgrades for existing content to be downloaded
14:56:30  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                :{BLACK}Deselect all
14:56:32  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                        :{BLACK}Deselect all content previously selected for download
14:56:35  <mcbanhas> Pardon the spam
14:56:36  <FLHerne> Since there are no actual semantic changes intended, there shouldn't be a need to force retranslations
14:56:40  <LordAro> you must use a pastebin for this
14:56:41  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Please don't do that
14:56:53  <mcbanhas> sorry I'll use pastebin next time
14:56:57  <LordAro> anything more than 3 lines is just irritating
14:57:54  <mcbanhas> It's been a while since I used IRC frequently. I forgot flooding was a think
14:57:57  <mcbanhas> *thing
14:58:11  <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
14:58:21  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: And please don't use, it's bad for reasons :P is good
14:58:43  <Markk> FLHerne: Why is it bad?
14:58:47  <glx> we used to use ottdcoop pastebin but it's broken
14:59:02  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Most clients have a setting to prevent accidentally pasting too much
14:59:39  <mcbanhas>
15:00:34  <LordAro> yeah, STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP definitely still awkward
15:00:45  <FLHerne> Markk: requires (ed?) JS, big nasty ads
15:01:06  <FLHerne> tracking cookies, social media tracking crap, just no
15:01:29  <Markk> FLHerne: Aha, okey. Nothing I've noticed, but I'm blocking third party cookies and have an adblocker.
15:01:46  <Markk> But sure, probably valid reason.s
15:02:16  <mcbanhas> what about just "select all package upgrades for download"?
15:02:33  <mcbanhas> or "all content upgrades"
15:02:41  <FLHerne> Nothing else uses 'package'
15:03:17  <LordAro> "content item", perhaps?
15:03:40  <LordAro> oh, not in the upgrade tooltip
15:03:41  <FLHerne> Oh, one of the tooltips does
15:04:09  <mcbanhas> I changed "line" to package on the first one
15:04:11  <FLHerne> LordAro: Everything else just says "select all content to ...",
15:04:14  <FLHerne> I think that's ok
15:05:26  <FLHerne> "Select all upgrades to previously-downloaded content" ?
15:05:46  <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
15:06:04  <FLHerne> Hm
15:06:08  <mcbanhas> Those are all very long and complex
15:06:15  <FLHerne> Yours is nicer, but I still think s/for/to/
15:07:05  <mcbanhas> "Select all content upgrades for download" keep it short and sweet
15:07:11  <FLHerne> Oh, did you change updates->upgrades?
15:07:30  <FLHerne> I think that's worse
15:07:38  <FLHerne> No, you didn't
15:07:48  <FLHerne> Presumably someone did, given the string names :P
15:07:56  <mcbanhas> Although I'd prefer "Select all package upgrades for download" because I want to keep it consistent with STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP
15:08:20  <mcbanhas> I can change upgrades to updates
15:08:22  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Introducing the term "package" isn't helpful IMO
15:08:39  <FLHerne> There's too much random jargon already
15:08:56  <FLHerne> (yes, it's familiar to Linux users, but no-one else)
15:09:10  <mcbanhas> Items then
15:09:28  <FLHerne> Yeah
15:12:07  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I do like "Select all content updates for download"
15:12:13  <FLHerne> It's clear and to the point
15:12:21  <mcbanhas>
15:13:08  <mcbanhas> what's STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP for?
15:13:14  <mcbanhas> can't find the button for that
15:13:35  <LordAro> when joining a MP game, you get the option to download all missing GRFs
15:13:37  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I like it
15:14:09  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: STR_MATRIX_TOOLTIP should have a period? Multiple sentences ;-)
15:15:02  <mcbanhas> I'm leaving punctuation for a final commit
15:15:12  <FLHerne> Ok :-)
15:15:13  <mcbanhas> Bc I haven't done it yet
15:15:26  <mcbanhas> and it's easy to do once all rewrites are approved
15:16:41  <mcbanhas> To be perfectly honest, I think we should eventually remove a lot of the tooltips. Many are highly redundant.
15:16:44  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Hm, you have "to be downloaded" vs "for download"
15:17:03  <mcbanhas> I assume it's a lot of work though, bc I think they're tied to specific menu code
15:17:03  <FLHerne> Just use "for download" in select-all
15:17:07  <FLHerne> too
15:17:27  <LordAro> mcbanhas: you're quite welcome to do so :p
15:17:52  <mcbanhas> LordAro, I would, if it was a matter of just eliminating strings. turns out it's not.
15:18:09  <LordAro> well it is
15:18:15  <LordAro> just involves a very minor amount of code changes
15:18:24  <LordAro> which is basically just finding the code and removing it
15:19:22  <mcbanhas> I'll open an issue ticket in the future then.
15:19:26  <mcbanhas> But first this.
15:19:45  <LordAro> mm
15:20:53  <FLHerne> LordAro: It might be better to improve the tooltip code so it just does nothing if the string is empty
15:21:08  <FLHerne> That way it doesn't potentially break other translations
15:21:35  <Yexo> FLHerne: Then we have english language strings that are empty but do have a translations
15:21:39  <Yexo> That feels wrong
15:21:56  <FLHerne> English is a fairly compact language, I can imagine there being cases where the meaning would fit in a sane English button text but not some other language
15:22:09  <LordAro> yeah, the language code would have to be completely rewritten for that to work
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15:22:44  <Yexo> If there are cases like that we could consider it, but that doesn't solve the issue of "I think these tooltips are redundant and should be removed"
15:22:49  <Yexo> If we remove them, we should do so for all languages
15:22:54  <LordAro> ^
15:22:57  <mcbanhas> Pretty much
15:23:08  <mcbanhas> That would also make translation less tedious
15:23:13  <mcbanhas> less lines, quicker job
15:23:23  <mcbanhas> *fewer lines
15:23:40  <FLHerne> Yexo: I mean, the tooltip could be redundant in English but not other languages, depending on exactly what the button text says
15:26:04  <Yexo> If we find such cases we can solve that, for now I'd assume those don't exists to make everyones live easier
15:26:55  <mcbanhas> That's more of a matter of selecting only purely redundant ones like "Game Options: Diplay game options"
15:27:49  <mcbanhas> We could rewrite redundancies to actually include useful info
15:28:10  <mcbanhas> But ah well, I'm getting ahea of myself
15:29:14  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: A tooltip that actually explained why "Game Options" are distinct from "Settings" would be helpful and non-redundant there
15:29:46  <mcbanhas> Got a suggestion? I can type it in right now
15:29:57  <FLHerne> Nope, no-one knows :P
15:30:09  <LordAro> there would have to be an actual distinction first :p
15:30:23  <LordAro> other than TTD-ish settings & OTTD settings
15:30:34  <FLHerne> "Because there was always a second settings page, and unspecified hypothetical people would complain if they were merged"
15:31:30  <mcbanhas> Well I think the main distinction is that settings are advanced customization options
15:32:02  <FLHerne> The settings already have a basic/advanced/expert selector though
15:32:05  <mcbanhas> and they apply specifically to game mechanics, etc
15:32:24  <mcbanhas> Options include base level stuff like application language, graphics, resolution
15:32:24  <nielsm> town names is the most odd one out in Game Options
15:32:30  <nielsm> since that affects worldgen
15:32:41  <mcbanhas> How so?
15:32:44  <FLHerne> Oh, I forgot the really daft thing that there's a "Game settings" category in Settings
15:33:14  <FLHerne> Which is, of course, completely different from the "Game options"
15:33:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Town names really ought to be in the World Generation dialog
15:33:42  <frosch123> FLHerne: "settings" contains all ottd settings (not add-ons), "game options" contains those that were to difficult to add to "settings" due to very custom layout or logic
15:34:19  <FLHerne> frosch123: Aah, the traditional Unix implementation-driven UI :D
15:34:47  <frosch123> FLHerne: we got already rid of new settings and difficulty settings
15:35:01  <frosch123> removing game options is on the agenda for 10 years, it's just very hard
15:35:10  <FLHerne> frosch123: True, I remember when it was worse
15:35:12  <frosch123> *news settings
15:35:23  <FLHerne> The new Settings page is really nice
15:36:02  <mcbanhas> What about "Customize advanced gameplay features" for the settings tooltip?
15:36:24  <Yexo> "Transparency options" is yet another one
15:36:35  <LordAro> mcbanhas: just leave it as is for now
15:36:40  <mcbanhas> And for options "Change basic game parameters"
15:37:22  <mcbanhas> ok will do
15:38:01  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Sorry, my fault
15:50:06  <FLHerne> glx: What do you think about ?
15:50:26  <glx> simpler than my try :)
15:50:26  <FLHerne> I think we should merge that, or yours, or neither, and release 0.5.1 imminently?
15:50:29  <mcbanhas> Any idea where can I find STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_CLIENTS_CAPTION_TOOLTIP   :{BLACK}Clients online / clients max{}Companies online / companies max
15:50:48  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Multiplayer server list?
15:50:55  <mcbanhas> cant see it
15:51:06  <mcbanhas> oh wait found it!
15:51:16  <mcbanhas> it's a tooltip for one of the separators
15:51:18  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's the tooltip of the "Clients" header in the table
15:52:07  <FLHerne> Oh, I should finish poking the industry example
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16:02:14  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED                              :{BLACK}Advertised
16:02:14  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Choose between an advertised (internet) and a not advertised (Local Area Network, LAN) game
16:02:28  <mcbanhas> This is a very weird formulation for a dropdown menu IMO
16:03:31  <mcbanhas> why not pick Connection type instead?
16:03:40  <mcbanhas> So Local/Internet as options
16:04:12  <mcbanhas> and then the tooltip explains, play a local game, or advertise it on the internet
16:04:37  <mcbanhas> Although tbh it's self explanatory, everyoe knows what connection type is this days
16:04:55  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Because that's not technically accurate ;-)
16:05:17  <FLHerne> You can join a non-advertised game over the internet, assuming port-forwarding etc.
16:05:26  <FLHerne> It just doesn't appear in the server list
16:11:29  <_dp_> FLHerne, but confusing af :p
16:11:48  <_dp_> I've seen ppl think there aren't any mp servers because of that
16:12:06  <_dp_> also it defaults to lan
16:13:38  <LordAro> _dp_: that was changed for 1.10 i believe
16:14:50  <_dp_> LordAro, wow, looks like it indeed
16:15:14  <_dp_> I though it's impossible because of security whatever thing :p
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16:15:56  <FLHerne> LordAro: 1.9.2 it seems
16:16:50  <LordAro> well then, even earlier
16:16:56  <LordAro> _dp_ has no excuse at all
16:17:38  <_dp_> LordAro, it was like that for 15 years or smth :p
16:18:19  <_dp_> well, I guess it was ok for first 10-ish when it was called lan/internet xD
16:23:02  <_dp_> oh wow, first tech GS it seems
16:23:43  <_dp_>
16:25:25  <andythenorth> hurrah
16:25:28  <andythenorth> how does it work?
16:25:37  <_dp_> idk
16:25:49  <_dp_> but I probably know one bug :p
16:26:17  <andythenorth> hmm, I'll need to merge it with Busy Bee
16:26:55  <_dp_> would be if someone can check whether availability stays with ccmpany id after reset as I think it is
16:27:02  <_dp_> coz idk when I'll get to it myself
16:28:01  * andythenorth wonders when ultimate GS will be made
16:28:07  <andythenorth> all the current GS combined
16:29:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's already made by btpro for the most part
16:29:17  <andythenorth> o_O
16:30:19  <_dp_> at least afaik they run same gs on all servers
16:30:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
16:34:05  * _dp_ never been so happy getting a desync
16:34:30  <Yexo> do you know what action caused it?
16:34:40  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, on most game lobby menus I recall, "Internet" always tends to mean a game listed on a master server
16:34:40  <_dp_> looking into it right now
16:35:06  <mcbanhas> Even if we don't use this specific nomenclature, this menu is quite confusing
16:35:38  <mcbanhas> I'm gonna leave the strings as is and file an issue
16:36:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
16:38:21  <nielsm> I agree that changing the server browser to "game type: internet/local" will be an improvement over "advertised: yes/no"
16:38:41  <nielsm> the create server menu should probably then be "advertise internet game: yes/no" though
16:39:12  <_dp_> Yexo, desync seems to be quite consistent you can try joining citymania test server yourself
16:42:03  <_dp_> cmd log looks like this (client 153):
16:42:22  <_dp_> only client action: 4055150     153     255     COMPANY_CTRL (80)   0   153     0
16:42:40  <_dp_> and ppl on the server stay connected
16:45:24  <Yexo> that command doesn't matter, the gamestate is already problematic (but synced to existing clients)
16:45:40  <Yexo> at this point just joining leads to a desync
16:47:30  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADD_SERVER                              :{BLACK}Add server
16:47:31  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADD_SERVER_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Adds a server to the list which will always be checked for running games
16:47:46  <Yexo> Which means there is some state on the server that doesn't make it into the savegame but is still relevant for the gameloop
16:47:47  <mcbanhas> this is basically "Add to favourites" right?
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16:48:22  <Yexo> mcbanhas: Not really, it'll ask you for an IP address
16:48:51  <_dp_> Yexo, sometimes it fails with (wrong company in DoCommand) msg instead of desync, mb related
16:48:58  <Yexo> Which then afterwards will always list the feature even without querying the server master list
16:49:27  <mcbanhas> Yexo, if I have a server selected it autofills the field with it
16:49:58  <mcbanhas> No wait, my bad
16:50:31  <mcbanhas> aww man these are some weird ass options
16:52:15  <_dp_> hmmmmm I have a client connected, I can try to get 2 saves...
16:52:54  <glx> ah I found the error in #8132 savegame, it seems 2 stations from different companies have the same index
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16:57:26  <Yexo> _dp_: I saw an "unnamed" company just a minute ago, now it's gone. Was that removed?
16:57:43  <LordAro> glx: mildly impressive
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16:57:52  <LordAro> close as "corrupt save" ?
16:58:07  <glx> well it should not crash openttd
16:58:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
16:59:02  <FLHerne> I'll add a comment
17:02:47  <LordAro> glx: ideally yes, but there's many bits of the saveload code that aren't set up to deal with errors like that
17:03:07  <LordAro> the proper solution is probably to replace many asserts with exceptions
17:03:11  <LordAro> but that's a big job
17:04:17  <_dp_> Yexo, unnamed is there atm
17:04:39  <_dp_> I managed to pause it and get saves from both sides
17:04:41  <Yexo> Now I see 2 unnamed
17:04:50  <_dp_> is there something to compare saves?
17:05:03  <Yexo> docs/desync*.md has something like that
17:05:22  <_dp_> hm, yeah, 2 unamed in lobby
17:05:27  <_dp_> but only 1 on the server...
17:06:06  <_dp_> ah, nvm, 2 on the server, I'm blind
17:06:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
17:14:39  <_dp_> FWIF here are desync saves:
17:14:51  <_dp_> server is patched though but shouldn't matter
17:15:22  <_dp_> as I'm pretty sure some non-patched clients stayed in sync just fine
17:17:00  <_dp_> when paused it connects but instantly desyncs when unpaused
17:17:06  <_dp_> which is I guess expected
17:18:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
17:19:37  <_dp_> though now that I think of it those saves are probably identical
17:20:33  <Yexo> Can you verify that -cmserver.sav as made on the patched server, -cmclient.sav was made on a patched client, -vanilla.sav was made non non-patched client and -vanilla-netsave.sav was made on desync by a non-patched client?
17:21:30  <_dp_> Yexo, yes, unless I accidentally named them incorrectly
17:23:12  <_dp_> patched ones to some stuff in newgrf storage that should be the only difference and doesn't matter as there a non grfs
17:28:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
17:38:08  <Yexo> _dp_: there is an inconsistency in persistenstorage information between the -cmserver and -cmclient saves
17:38:49  <_dp_> Yexo, that's probably fine, whatever is stored there should not affect the game state anyway
17:41:03  <Yexo> There are also several differences in vehicle information
17:41:37  <_dp_> Yexo, oh, that's interesting...
17:41:52  <_dp_> but how? if it just sends the same save to a client
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17:42:48  <_dp_> oh, players could probably change something even if paused...
17:42:50  <Yexo> Was that from a client that was freshly connected during the pause?
17:43:20  <_dp_> Yexo, yes, as freshly as I could
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17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:47:44  <_dp_> Yexo, this should be the command log while paused
17:53:56  <Yexo> -netsave is very different. Maybe that one is created one (or a few) ticks later when the desync is actually noticed?
17:55:02  <_dp_> Yexo, yeah, ofc
17:55:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load
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17:56:25  <_dp_> I'm thinking what can I do to actually pinpoint that desync better
17:56:48  <_dp_> those saves are useless as far as I understand as it basically sends the same save over the network
17:56:56  <_dp_> thing that desyncs it is not in the save
17:57:46  <_dp_> if only I could somehow make a save at the same frame it desyncs...
17:58:03  <Yexo> If only we could detect in which frame it desyncs :p
17:58:30  <Yexo> Thing is: the actual desync might have happened hours earlier, impossible to tell without knowing what it is
17:58:51  <_dp_> well, yeah, but at least we'll know where the diff is
17:59:05  <glx> and impossible to add a cache check not knowing what is different
17:59:34  <Yexo> The diff between -cmserver and -vanilla is fairly small
18:00:23  <Yexo> 2 single bytes different in CITY chunk, several differences in AIPL but we can ignore that, and minor differences in the persistent storage
18:02:03  <_dp_> I have command log for some time before the first desync but it's huge
18:02:14  <_dp_> there is like 20 min window where it could've happened
18:02:38  <_dp_> and I don't have log for the whole 20min
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18:03:32  <Yexo> If we had a savegame from before those 20 minutes and the whole commandlog since the savegame we could use that
18:03:38  <Yexo> How much data would it be to keep more logs?
18:03:41  <Yexo> Is that feasible?
18:04:33  <_dp_> hm, actually I have 18 mins of log... but no savegame
18:06:02  <_dp_> Yexo, hard to tell... doesn't use much memory atm so I guess I can increase the log size
18:06:07  <_dp_> or just write it to the file
18:06:38  <_dp_> that desync is quite rare though so who knows how long will it be before it happens again
18:14:44  <Yexo> If I'm reading the diffs of the savegame dumps correctly the diffs for towns is in Town::cargo_accepted
18:14:59  <_dp_> ok, there is a good chance that whatever caused the desync is here:
18:15:11  <_dp_> there are less than 2000 frames missing from last known sync
18:16:42  <Yexo> It unfortunately doesn't work that way: a good sync just means that no difference was detected yet
18:16:42  <_dp_> cleaned from server spam:
18:16:47  <Yexo> It might have been present already
18:17:22  <_dp_> Yexo, well yeah, but client connected just fine and later everyone just instantly desynced
18:18:17  <Yexo> In this case a good client connect is a good indication the problem hasn't happened yet, fair enough
18:19:42  <frosch123> _dp_: the faster a desync happens after the join, the less likely it is caused by commands
18:20:09  <frosch123> the desync rather happens because the state changes during the save-load cycle.
18:24:10  <_dp_> frosch123, I'm not sure what you mean here but I suspect desync is caused by some caches that aren't in the save
18:24:44  <_dp_> so whoever was connected has one cache and loading save gives another
18:25:28  <frosch123> yes, that is one option, and this was the case with the docktile problem
18:25:46  <frosch123> another option is that loading the save does not initialise everything
18:26:06  <frosch123> variables could be uninitialised and contain whatever was present before
18:26:38  <frosch123> that kind of issue would also differ between compilers and os, maybe some zero-initialise more than others
18:26:50  <FLHerne> makes me a bit suspicious just because it depends on client settings
18:27:22  <FLHerne> But I don't think it can change the state in a relevant way?
18:28:27  <Yexo> That changes _viewport_sign_kdtree only, which is hopeuflly only used in the GUI, not as gamestate
18:28:54  <FLHerne> Hm
18:28:59  <_dp_> and even if it does it should've just desynced everyone with differentt setting
18:29:29  <frosch123> sign positions also depend on font size :)
18:32:03  <Yexo> Town::cargo_accepted_total and Town::stations_near are marked as NOSAVE. If we moved them to TownCache instead the desync check code would verify them
18:32:23  <Yexo> Before trying that, any reasons that won't work?
18:34:27  <Yexo> _dp_: do you have a link to the patched that are applied to the server?
18:35:24  <_dp_> Yexo, I have repo that I can give you access to, but that's a lot of code
18:35:47  <_dp_> I wonder if I can somehow make it run one frame at a time without restarting the server
18:37:15  <Yexo> Enough for me for today. I think we should add cache checking to the town variables I mentioned earlier, but if the server is that heavily modified I also don't want to invest much more time in this
18:42:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #125: Change: Build examples in regression testing
18:42:52  <_dp_> "To compare savegame more semantically, there exist some ugly hackish tools at:"
18:43:13  <nielsm> maybe we should add that, a way to single-step games (unpause for a single tick)
18:43:15  <_dp_> lol, I guess I have some ugly hackish tools of my own for that xD
18:43:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
18:43:34  <_dp_> nielsm, yeah, would help
18:43:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #125: Change: Build examples in regression testing
18:43:46  <_dp_> though I probably can pull it off with admin port right now
18:44:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs.
18:44:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version
18:44:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed issue #112: overwrites nml/
18:44:35  <FLHerne> "FLHerne closed pull request #115"
18:44:41  <LordAro> FLHerne: yes
18:44:43  <FLHerne> That's odd, I didn't
18:44:53  <LordAro> i added it to the PR text
18:44:58  <LordAro> so GH would do it automatically
18:45:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
18:45:10  <FLHerne> Oh, ok
18:45:49  <andythenorth> nml release? o_O
18:45:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Almost
18:46:09  * LordAro looks at the nml release process section of the readme
18:46:28  * andythenorth hopes it's accurate
18:46:41  <andythenorth> sooner we unblock authors, sooner they find the next bug :)
18:47:06  <FLHerne> LordAro: I'd like to get #133 in, just editing some stupid produce behaviour
18:47:19  <FLHerne> Having a wrong example for the major new feature is silly
18:47:22  <TrueBrain> in case you guys haven't seen, nightlies failed today: The remote file either doesn't exist, is unauthorized, or is forbidden for url ''. Exception calling "GetResponse" with "0" argument(s): "The remote name could not be resolved: ''" <- during Windows vcpkg operations
18:48:30  <LordAro> well that's exciting
18:48:47  <LordAro> FLHerne: yeah, i've got to write the changelog first
18:48:55  <LordAro> i'm not going to release immediately
18:49:29  <LordAro> TrueBrain: looks like it's still there
18:49:32  <LordAro> random failure, perhaps?
18:49:45  <TrueBrain> doubtful, both win32 and win64 failed
18:50:13  <TrueBrain> the DNS server is badly responding to AAAA requests
18:50:20  <TrueBrain> as in ... really badly
18:50:43  <TrueBrain> ah, no
18:50:46  <TrueBrain> also A records
18:50:50  <TrueBrain> the primary NS is down
18:50:54  <LordAro> that won't help
18:51:11  <TrueBrain> there are no glue-records :D
18:51:13  <TrueBrain> that is just silly
18:51:16  <LordAro> what is it used for anyway? windows has zip capabilities built in, doesn't it?
18:52:02  <TrueBrain> yeah, the DNS has no glue-records, so it fails to resolve NS servers .. but it does sometimes work, so it is a bit odd
18:52:04  <milek7> under some powershell magic incantation, maybe it has
18:52:06  <TrueBrain> but someone screwed up :D
18:52:22  <nielsm> I'm not sure windows has any API to handle InfoZip archives
18:52:31  <nielsm> if that's for format the library is for
18:54:08  <nielsm> oh it's an executable package, but still no windows does not have a commandline zip/unzip tool either
18:54:23  <nielsm> it has a shell extension that's not available in a programmatic way due to licensing
18:54:55  <milek7>
18:55:29  <TrueBrain> owh, wait, it is not vcpkg, that is my bad; it is choco
18:55:45  <TrueBrain> vcpkg also uses, but not for this
18:56:03  <TrueBrain> okay, does resolve it, does not
18:57:17  <FLHerne> NML docs don't say the address range for STORE_TEMP
18:58:02  <TrueBrain> owh well, lets assume it is back operational tomorrow or something :P
18:58:12  <frosch123> FLHerne: 0..255
18:58:45  <frosch123> FLHerne: actually no, there are some write-only things up to 0x10F or so
18:59:05  <FLHerne> frosch123: Isn't it ..127 for user code because nmlc uses the rest?
18:59:07  <FLHerne> Or something
18:59:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro opened pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
18:59:16  <frosch123> FLHerne: oh, true
18:59:25  <FLHerne> ^that's what you said last time I asked, I just grepped my logs
18:59:38  <FLHerne> What's this "write-only stuff"?
18:59:51  <FLHerne> And should nml authors care?
18:59:53  <frosch123> they are additional return values from callbacks
19:00:08  <frosch123> their meaning is described at the callbacks, where they matter
19:00:37  <FLHerne> So if I just do STORE_TEMP(whatever, 0) it won't blow up unless there's an explicit mention?
19:00:39  <frosch123> <- that uses 0x100 for example
19:01:18  <FLHerne> I think this needs more docs :P
19:01:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] LordAro pushed 1 commits to master
19:01:37  <DorpsGek_III>   - Add: Ubuntu focal amd64 image (by LordAro)
19:01:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] LordAro merged pull request #43: Add: Ubuntu focal image
19:01:51  <frosch123> FLHerne: it's possible that nml's "return string(...)" inserts STORE_TEMP for 0x10x automagically
19:01:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases
19:02:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError()
19:02:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError()
19:03:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load
19:03:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load
19:03:37  <LordAro> oh, i approved it twice
19:03:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load
19:03:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8132: Crash on loading savegame from #4524 (station related)
19:03:59  <frosch123> LordAro: you also merged it twice :)
19:04:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases
19:04:42  <frosch123> hmm, no, it can't read
19:04:48  <frosch123> nor write
19:07:09  <LordAro> :p
19:07:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04
19:07:52  <Samu> I joined a citimanya server, instant desync
19:08:09  <LordAro> frosch123: can you give final ok on #8130 ?
19:09:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
19:10:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
19:10:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8119: Desync related to diagonal track next to dock end
19:10:18  <LordAro> ta
19:11:23  <LordAro> anyone got any thoughts on #8046 or #7945 ?
19:11:36  <LordAro> 7947*
19:11:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04
19:12:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04
19:13:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04
19:13:20  <TrueBrain> Surprised that the order is "sorted" .. what has the world become :p
19:13:44  <LordAro> probably some weirdness that the old site depended on :p
19:13:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain approved pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04
19:13:57  <_dp_> LordAro, dunno if related but terraforming water cost estimation is wrong in general
19:14:21  <LordAro> wouldn't surprise me
19:14:22  <TrueBrain> No, it was sorted when we moved to Jekyll :)
19:14:33  <LordAro> (reminder that we can't fix issues if we don't know they exist)
19:16:01  <milek7> why 'get your server at..' spam ends up on top of the list on default sorting?
19:16:54  <Samu> I wonder why too
19:17:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:17:20  <andythenorth> cost issues are so dull :)
19:17:29  <andythenorth> we have interesting things like actual desyncs :)
19:17:35  * andythenorth back to tanks
19:20:36  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, btw I'm gonna keep two types of tense on description text. 2nd and 3rd person present. There's no point in keeping just one tense for everything. Most actions are better described via 2nd person ("Click on an item to...") whereas others are better described by 3rd person ("Clears all objects..."). I've crossed checked with other games, and they appear to use this interchangeably. Keeping a more relaxed rule would be
19:20:36  <mcbanhas> better in the long term and would mean less strings to fix.
19:23:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7945: Building docks does not account the cost of clearing the sloped tile
19:24:50  <LordAro> oh no, warning when compiling latin.txt
19:24:53  <Yexo> Meh, #7945 has code attached to it but no actual PR :(
19:24:59  <LordAro> STR_ABOUT_COPYRIGHT_OPENTTD                                     :{BLACK}OpenTTD {COPYRIGHT} MMII-MMXIX Manus OpenTTD
19:25:07  <LordAro> Yexo: 7947
19:25:13  <mcbanhas> rofl
19:25:22  <LordAro> GH is bad at repeated force-pushes
19:25:32  <mcbanhas> who maintains the latin translation?
19:25:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock
19:25:46  <frosch123> LordAro: eints will remove the translation next time
19:25:54  <Yexo> LordAro: Ah, thanks :)
19:26:22  <frosch123> mcbanhas: one of the two super*, i always mix them up
19:26:22  <LordAro> frosch123: ah, it must have done already in master
19:26:31  <LordAro> supercheese, according to logs
19:27:07  <frosch123> yeah, good that i did not say supermop :)
19:28:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:31:02  <andythenorth> propene or propylene?
19:31:10  <andythenorth> or methyl ethylene :P
19:31:15  <andythenorth> chemicals are confusing
19:31:41  * LordAro acquires beer so that he may be better able to do OTTD release prep
19:32:01  <andythenorth> GL
19:32:36  <TrueBrain> Hmm .. beer .. now there is an idea
19:33:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:33:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:34:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: <- do you remember how finished that is?
19:34:24  <frosch123> i kind of want to get eints to git in the next 3/4 weeks
19:34:27  <andythenorth> ha ha the 2 character cargo abbreviations are getting ridiculous in FIRS
19:34:29  <andythenorth> :)
19:34:37  <andythenorth> so many overlapping cargos :P
19:35:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:35:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: what happens if you use more than 2 chars?
19:35:48  <andythenorth> never tried :)
19:35:54  <andythenorth> let's see
19:36:19  <LordAro> ...why did no one ever put OpenGFX on banans?
19:36:21  <LordAro> +a
19:36:36  <LordAro> and why has no one mentioned it?
19:36:56  <LordAro> OpenGFX 0.6.0*
19:37:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
19:37:54  <andythenorth> LordAro 'oops'
19:38:15  <andythenorth> instructions are correct?
19:38:17  <LordAro> can someone who can/knows how to upload to bananas do so?
19:38:47  * andythenorth tries
19:38:57  <LordAro> andythenorth: just step 7 of the release process
19:39:05  <andythenorth> looks like I'm not an author for OpenGFX since the move
19:39:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands
19:39:57  <LordAro> pm & foobar, apparently
19:39:59  <andythenorth> ok it's planetmaker or foobar,
19:40:03  <andythenorth> oh you beat me
19:40:07  <LordAro> barely :p
19:40:14  <andythenorth> frosch123 can probably assign more
19:40:14  <LordAro> finding packages in new-bananas repo is hard
19:40:24  <andythenorth> I don't particularly want to be opengfx maintainer but eh
19:40:48  <TrueBrain> frosch123 : first on my todo list is to fix AWS bill, after that I will finish up that part. I believe it was nearly done, but it has been a while :D
19:41:00  <LordAro> i thought i was going mad - did a content update but still had the "5 missing sprites" warning
19:41:23  <TrueBrain> I have some time next week, so we can have that done before the end of the month if you like
19:41:26  <glx> oh looks like my search&replace magic failed on latin
19:41:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: nice :)
19:41:48  <andythenorth> frosch123 guess what happens if I use 4 chars for cargo prop 0D? o_O
19:41:55  <LordAro> glx: i wouldn't have expected you to be checking for MMXIX :p
19:42:22  <LordAro> shame to lose them really, but i suppose it'll have to be switched to dirty arabic numerals
19:42:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: the station list becomes huge?
19:43:09  <TrueBrain> LordAro : "hard" is an improvement on "not able to", I guess? :p
19:43:11  <andythenorth> somewhat
19:43:12  <frosch123> LordAro: are you asking for a pr to print vehicle cost in latin?
19:43:18  <andythenorth> looks like it's just a convention
19:43:23  <andythenorth> for 2 chars
19:43:41  <frosch123> LordAro: numerals > 1000 are kind of hard, needs special characters, not sure whether unicode has all of them
19:43:50  <frosch123> or rather, which fonts have them
19:44:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, are you using the cargo labels now? so people can learn about BEER?
19:44:30  <andythenorth> o_O
19:44:32  <andythenorth> I could
19:44:35  <andythenorth> but should I?
19:44:43  <frosch123> and JAVA
19:44:44  <LordAro> TrueBrain: true :p
19:44:48  <andythenorth> those abbreviations have always been meh
19:45:05  <andythenorth> "OpenGFX is licensed under the GNU General Pubilc License version 2.0." < if we find a releaser, can we fix that line in description?
19:45:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea what translators would do
19:45:13  <LordAro> frosch123: not at all, but now it's fixed to a "2020" string
19:45:14  <andythenorth> could have been worse, -l is more lolz
19:45:18  <LordAro> andythenorth: i noticed that
19:45:43  <andythenorth> I never ever read those cargo abbreviations ever
19:45:49  <andythenorth> maybe I should just have python guess some
19:46:28  <andythenorth> haha, they don't even show the cargo on tooltip
19:46:33  <andythenorth> they are absolute junk UI
19:46:41  <andythenorth> :D
19:48:56  <LordAro> glx: ah, you missed urdu as well, but that's an unfinished lang so we don't care about it
19:49:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
19:49:06  <LordAro> :{BLACK}OpenTTD {COPYRIGHT} ٢٠٠٢ - ٢٠١٦ OpenTTD ٹیم
19:49:15  <glx> pff
19:54:08  <andythenorth>
19:55:08  <frosch123> a text filter would be more useful :)
19:55:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing
19:55:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #133: Doc: Remove broken code from industry example.
19:55:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #133: Doc: Remove broken code from industry example.
19:56:08  <frosch123> the abbreviations are probably useful in the rows with the station data
19:56:14  <frosch123> but the filter is silly :)
19:56:15  <andythenorth> I could do a dirty protest :P
19:56:19  <andythenorth> and set them all to __
19:56:20  <andythenorth> or XX
19:56:27  <FLHerne> nielsm/andythenorth: Can someone who actually writes industry grfs review #138 ?
19:56:33  <FLHerne> It seems to work, but...
19:57:42  * andythenorth reads
19:57:47  <andythenorth> I can't actually do nml
19:57:52  <andythenorth> I have to constantly refer to the spec
19:58:04  <andythenorth> I can't even write a block without checking syntax
20:00:04  <andythenorth> far as I can tell, cargo_types doesn't need to list output cargos
20:00:04  <andythenorth>
20:00:10  <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't, and seems to work
20:00:31  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I did it without that first, and it didn't work :P
20:00:39  <andythenorth> "All cargo types the industry handles must be mentioned in its cargo_types property even when they are handled by production callbacks."
20:02:18  <glx> the new code seems better than the old one
20:05:28  <FLHerne> I don't think that's hard
20:06:23  <FLHerne> Given that the old one failed to do nothing
20:07:59  <andythenorth> FIRS is wrong, new example is right
20:08:10  <glx> and if I read the doc correctly it should work as intended
20:08:10  <andythenorth> we'll go with 'right'
20:10:08  <mcbanhas> STR_REFIT_SELECT_VEHICLES_TOOLTIP                               :{BLACK}Select the vehicles to refit. Dragging with the mouse allows to select multiple vehicles. Clicking on an empty space will select the whole vehicle. Ctrl+Click will select a vehicle and the following chain
20:10:16  <mcbanhas> Where can I find this string specifically
20:10:22  <mcbanhas> It's not in the train refit menu
20:10:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:11:30  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Depot window, probably
20:11:47  <Samu>
20:12:40  <Samu> refit window for trains?
20:12:44  <mcbanhas> Not as far as I can see
20:13:04  <FLHerne> No
20:13:37  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: What Samu says
20:13:51  <glx> it's in refit window
20:13:55  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Specifically, hovering over the train at the top of the window
20:14:23  <FLHerne> (tbh, I never knew that was there...)
20:14:42  <FLHerne> [being able to select individual vehicles]
20:15:29  <mcbanhas> Man that's a WEIRD af interface
20:16:00  <glx> it's from last century (with additions)
20:17:44  <andythenorth> it's for setting realistic liveries
20:19:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:20:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
20:22:20  <frosch123> FLHerne: <- better?
20:23:06  <FLHerne> LordAro: Hm, I don't think "firms up" is really the right term :-/
20:23:46  <LordAro> FLHerne: please do offer up better suggestions
20:24:00  <FLHerne> And the git thing isn't really Debian-specific
20:24:02  <LordAro> not like i actually understand what i'm doing with nml :p
20:24:19  <FLHerne> Nor especially crucial compared to the various limit fixes
20:24:28  <FLHerne> It's important to about one person :P
20:24:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:24:51  <FLHerne> Hm, although it's not in the changelog at all
20:25:05  <andythenorth> firms up / corrects
20:25:07  <FLHerne> I was about to comment with suggestion
20:25:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 requested changes for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock
20:25:15  * FLHerne reads new push
20:25:17  <LordAro> well we wouldn't be making it so soon without that one person :p
20:25:22  <andythenorth> the 15 was just a fuck up by me
20:25:40  <andythenorth> sooner it's gone, the less bad I feel :)
20:26:23  <FLHerne> LordAro: I don't think that's true
20:27:04  <FLHerne> LordAro: The incorrect param and roadtype limits, and transported_last_month_pct being up to 255 (!) are all pretty critical
20:27:17  <glx> oh there were 2 commits in the PR
20:27:28  <LordAro> no more critical than half the other changes in 0.5.0
20:27:35  <LordAro> and that didn't happen for years :p
20:27:45  <andythenorth> no but having done it, it would be nice to undo the brown bag :)
20:27:52  <LordAro> definitely
20:29:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:30:05  <andythenorth> I could actually compile that example grf and try it in game :P
20:30:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock
20:31:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8135: Prepare for 1.10.2 release
20:32:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:32:52  <FLHerne> LordAro: tbc, I mean that comment as a suggestion for everything down to the ---- below "Other changes"
20:32:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:33:12  <FLHerne> LordAro: (including the Debian bit)
20:33:13  <frosch123> LordAro: do we use the "suggest change" for changelogs?
20:33:29  <LordAro> frosch123: i'll roll it in manually anyway
20:33:37  <LordAro> but by all means
20:33:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:34:44  <FLHerne> frosch123: Sorry, that was my mistake when I suggested that changelog line
20:35:04  <FLHerne> I was thinking of roadtypes, obviously :-/
20:35:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:35:35  <LordAro> existing comments resolved
20:36:53  <FLHerne> LordAro: None of my comments are resolved?
20:37:04  <FLHerne> (nor frosch's one)
20:37:14  <frosch123> save before push?
20:37:27  <FLHerne> git add?
20:37:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:37:39  <LordAro> ahem.
20:37:47  <LordAro> amend before add
20:38:03  *** Foveafoxy has joined #openttd
20:38:21  * frosch123 googles "N.B."
20:38:39  <frosch123> ah, latin again
20:38:40  *** Foveafoxy is now known as Guest24687
20:38:41  <LordAro> it's probably redundant here, tbh
20:38:49  <frosch123> we banned latin from english.txt :)
20:38:56  <LordAro> :D
20:39:18  * frosch123 adds NB to IE and EG
20:39:43  <LordAro> internet explorer
20:39:51  <LordAro> and i have never seen "e.g." capitalised
20:40:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:40:25  <frosch123> me neither :) always e.g. and i.e.
20:40:37  <andythenorth> cargo label for BTX Aromatics? :P
20:40:39  <LordAro> I.E. very occasionally, i think
20:41:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 merged pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout
20:41:14  <andythenorth> FLHerne the cargo example I have read it, I can't see anything wrong, but I am a crap reviewer.  I write my code by trial and error :P
20:42:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: BTX_
20:42:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
20:42:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing
20:46:08  *** Guest24687 has quit IRC
20:47:56  <andythenorth> oof 110 industries in FIRS now
20:48:01  <andythenorth> almost the limit
20:48:11  <Samu> wow
20:48:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I did compile and test it
20:48:25  <FLHerne> Then I did it again, because it didn't work the first time :P
20:48:28  <andythenorth> :D
20:49:04  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What you're missing is an "all of them at once" mode
20:49:25  <FLHerne> (seriously, that might be kind of fun to have; no-one would expect it to be balanced or sane)
20:49:48  <andythenorth> I have a forum PM where someone is releasing a FIRS 3 fork with 'all industries'
20:49:52  <andythenorth> it's not public yet
20:49:55  <andythenorth> but I have seen the cargo flow
20:50:08  <FLHerne> And scenario makers could carefully place them to produce maps that were somewhat sane
20:50:17  <FLHerne> See?
20:50:29  <FLHerne> Everyone's telling you it's a good idea!
20:50:52  <andythenorth> it's a good idea for other people to do it :)
20:51:43  <andythenorth> 255 industries for OpenTTD 1.11 then?
20:51:51  <andythenorth> there was a limitation though
20:52:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing
20:53:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing
20:53:08  <andythenorth> goes it throw out limitation? o_O
20:53:16  <andythenorth> was it max size of callback results?
20:54:20  <frosch123> the limit is from variables like industry_distance
20:56:12  <andythenorth> I might end up assigning IDs per economy manually
20:56:23  <andythenorth> not sure if nml will choke on that
20:56:56  <andythenorth> I'm not sure if it tries to do any magic with IDs
20:57:09  <glx> if you do it via actionD it should work
20:57:15  <glx> I think
20:57:42  <andythenorth> the newgrf spec will allow it
20:57:57  <andythenorth> I'm just not sure what nml does with resolving identifiers, and also switch chains
20:58:12  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
20:58:18  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_FIND_SERVER                             :{BLACK}Find server
20:58:18  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_FIND_SERVER_TOOLTIP                     :{BLACK}Search network for a server
20:58:32  <mcbanhas> This appears to be the same as "Refresh list" on most server browsers
20:58:38  <mcbanhas> not a search tool
20:59:11  <andythenorth> isn't 'Find Server' the button you have to click to make the multiplayer lobby do something?
20:59:17  <andythenorth> I always just hit it until things work
20:59:20  <mcbanhas> Yeah
20:59:27  <andythenorth> no idea what it's supposed to do
20:59:35  <andythenorth> so much of OpenTTD is a mystery to me :)
20:59:39  <mcbanhas> It does the same as "Refresh list"
20:59:46  <mcbanhas> So I'm going to rename it
20:59:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8135: Prepare for 1.10.2 release
21:00:29  <mcbanhas> the actual tool for searching for specific servers is the filter located at the top of the window
21:00:32  <andythenorth> Refresh list of what?
21:02:29  <LordAro> so, 1.10.2 tonight?
21:02:34  <mcbanhas> I could do Refresh server list, but come on
21:02:44  <LordAro> anyone got any opposition?
21:02:54  <mcbanhas> Most games these days just have "Refresh list"
21:03:16  <mcbanhas> or Refresh servers
21:05:22  <LordAro> frosch123: can you do the suitable amount of poking to give andythenorth upload rights to OGFX?
21:06:32  <frosch123> no poking needed, everyone can do that
21:06:40  <frosch123> but i can make a PR :)
21:06:48  <LordAro> yes please :)
21:09:27  <andythenorth> it's no way obvious that it's a list of servers
21:09:34  <andythenorth> not being difficult
21:09:49  <andythenorth> just pointing out that the concepts are murky
21:10:49  <andythenorth> not all multiplayer games involve 'server', some are auto-discovery LAN play, and some use a queue to put you into MMPORG type play
21:11:28  <andythenorth> mcbanhas but this is just tooltip changes? Or did I miss the memo?
21:11:49  <mcbanhas> No, I'm editing text for the whole UI.
21:12:00  <mcbanhas> But I will submit things by batches
21:12:39  * andythenorth clicks 'Refresh server' a lot
21:12:42  <andythenorth> to see what happens
21:13:15  <andythenorth> it's nice that we've provided a 'Cancel' button there
21:13:23  <andythenorth> it prevents a boring consistency with other windows
21:13:29  <andythenorth> we should mix things up more
21:14:00  <andythenorth> 'Check online content' uses 'Close'
21:14:05  <andythenorth> which is nice and varied
21:14:12  <FLHerne> Hm
21:14:14  <andythenorth> I often 'Check online content'
21:14:18  <andythenorth> just to check it's all ok
21:14:23  <andythenorth> Bananas, you ok hun?
21:14:43  <_dp_> LordAro, mb wait with 1.10.2 till tomorrow? I hope I'll hunt that desync today
21:15:09  <frosch123> _dp_: are you sure you can see any desyncs in the dockingtile fog?
21:15:36  <_dp_> there are no docks or ships in this game
21:15:48  <frosch123> LordAro:
21:15:48  <_dp_> and I already found a way to step it 1 frame at a time
21:15:59  <glx> oilrigs are touched too
21:16:13  <_dp_> so just waiting till a player finished his megagame before starting torturing the server xD
21:16:16  <FLHerne> What's the last not-broken release?
21:16:41  <andythenorth> 0
21:17:23  <LordAro> frosch123: ta
21:17:26  <LordAro> andythenorth: gogo ogfx
21:17:42  <glx> and 1.10 had RC versions, but nobody tries them (like nightlies)
21:18:13  <LordAro> FLHerne: if we knew that, finding the problem would be easy :p
21:18:19  <mcbanhas> Hmm that's funny
21:18:22  <LordAro> s/y/ier/
21:18:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8135: Prepare for 1.10.2 release
21:18:54  <andythenorth> I need to find the actual opengfx bundle
21:19:04  <andythenorth> it's not on
21:19:09  <andythenorth> that's source bundle
21:19:13  <mcbanhas> Is the "Not advertised" server seach not supposed to detect a game I host by myself locally?
21:19:23  <LordAro> surely it was put somewhere...
21:19:26  <frosch123> andythenorth:
21:19:36  <mcbanhas> If so, is there a way I can test local server detecting without another computer?
21:19:36  <LordAro> ah yes, of course
21:19:43  <andythenorth> thanks frosch123
21:20:08  <Yexo> mcbanhas: it should work when starting the game twice on the same computer
21:20:12  <Yexo> It did for me a few days ago
21:20:37  <mcbanhas> Yexo, doesn't work for me. Maybe something weird with system config?
21:20:59  <LordAro> you have to actually "Start server", rather than playing single player
21:21:06  <LordAro> or whatever it's called
21:21:12  <andythenorth> do I use 'Update' or 'Upload' in Bananas?
21:21:18  <FLHerne> Works for me with 1.10.1
21:21:25  <LordAro> andythenorth: update, i would presume
21:21:30  <mcbanhas> ah found it now
21:21:33  <mcbanhas> nevermind
21:21:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: "update" is better, but it links to the same currently :)
21:21:53  <glx> frosch123: don't say it ;)
21:21:56  <andythenorth> was someone making a new UI?
21:21:59  <andythenorth> :P
21:22:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
21:24:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
21:25:00  <andythenorth> looks like Bananas won't accept the cdn zip of opengfx
21:25:15  <andythenorth> returns "Expecting at least a single file defining the Content Type." when I hit 'validate'
21:25:33  <andythenorth> FWIW it would never accept bundles tars either
21:25:42  <LordAro> oh no
21:26:01  <frosch123> it probably only understands real zip, and tar.gz, but nor
21:26:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
21:26:16  <FLHerne> LordAro: Sorry, I think that's it now :P
21:26:17  <LordAro> weird
21:26:31  <andythenorth> does it understand multi-grf archives?
21:26:37  <LordAro> FLHerne: is that in addition, or replacement?
21:27:01  <frosch123> LordAro: it's rather common, since ottd understands .tar. so people are supposed to just unzip and put the .tar into the ottd folder
21:27:04  <FLHerne> LordAro: Addition, it was committed just now
21:27:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: the .tar should work
21:27:12  <FLHerne> Well, 30min ago
21:27:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
21:28:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: 1. upload tar, 2. validate, 3.  click "delete" on license.txt
21:28:05  <frosch123> or so
21:28:29  <LordAro> and correct the description text
21:28:45  <frosch123> you can do that later :)
21:28:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne approved pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
21:29:30  <andythenorth> I only see the zip?
21:29:41  <andythenorth> or I use the source tar?
21:29:53  <LordAro> andythenorth: you'll have to repack it
21:30:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: i'll do it :)
21:30:29  <frosch123> three people telling one person what to click never works
21:31:19  <andythenorth> todo: automate publishing :P
21:31:21  <LordAro> no stop clicking there, click here
21:31:46  <andythenorth> I nearly quit forever when coop channel tried to teach me to install nml
21:31:57  <andythenorth> using 3 different operating systems
21:32:42  <FLHerne> frosch123: I'm still confused by the STORE_ docs :P
21:32:45  <andythenorth> grfcodec, simpler times :P
21:32:52  <FLHerne> "0..255 are available for the GRF to use. Note that accessing permanent town registers thrashes the contents of temporary register 0x100."
21:33:01  <FLHerne> ...but 0x100 is 256?!
21:33:28  <FLHerne> Similarly "Addresses 0..127 are available for the GRF to use. Addresses 0x100 and above have special purposes"
21:33:49  <nielsm> 0..255 are freely usable, higher addresses are reserved for special purposes?
21:33:56  <nielsm> as I understand it
21:33:59  <FLHerne> I guess the second one isn't necessarily conflicting
21:34:22  <FLHerne> In the first case, there's no reason to care about 0x100 being thrashed if it can't be used directly?
21:34:34  <Yexo> FLHerne: Going from memory: 0..255 are read+writeable from newgrf. 0x100+ is write-only, used for special purposes. NML-specific: nmlc reserves 128..255 for internal usage, leaving 0..127 to you as user
21:35:42  <Yexo> 0x100+ most likely have documented usage in a few callbacks. In those callbacks you need to use STORE_TEMP to set the value. If you use permanent town registers in the same callback chain, you'll overwrite the value you set earlier, thus leading to unexpected results
21:36:08  <frosch123> LordAro:
21:36:18  <LordAro> :)
21:36:53  <andythenorth> \o/
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21:40:19  <mcbanhas> nice
21:40:19  <mcbanhas> no changelog?
21:41:43  <mcbanhas> I see it now, nvm
21:42:10  <mcbanhas> One question, why doesn't OpenGFX feature the little haystacks on farms?
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21:45:19  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: They're seasonal, I think?
21:45:35  <mcbanhas> seasonal?
21:46:19  <FLHerne> They appear and disappear depending on (IIRC) the time of year
21:46:41  <FLHerne> Maybe it's random, don't quote me on that
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21:48:46  <mcbanhas> I never get them. In retrospect they appear just fine in NightGFX
21:50:16  <FLHerne> LordAro, glx: Time for the nml release? :D
21:55:19  <FLHerne> Meh
21:55:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #137: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.1
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21:57:07  <LordAro> and release!
21:57:55  <glx> let's see if all the automatic upload works here too :)
21:58:04  <FLHerne> That's weird
21:58:56  <FLHerne> The tarballs still have the various dotfiles, and :-/
21:59:17  <LordAro> :/
21:59:28  <LordAro> is the manifest file actually used?
21:59:49  <FLHerne> Hm, but correct
21:59:52  <LordAro> isn't it only used by pyinstaller, actually?
22:00:05  <FLHerne> It worked for me when I tested with ` sdist`
22:00:30  * FLHerne looks at the release actions
22:00:37  <glx> are you sure you got the right file ?
22:01:43  <glx> I see only in the bundle
22:02:09  <FLHerne> Ok, no, we're good :D
22:02:44  <FLHerne> When I looked there were just the "Source code (.zip/tar.gz)" entries
22:02:52  <FLHerne> I guess the real bundle hadn't built yet
22:03:09  <FLHerne> nml-0.5.1.tar.gz is correct
22:04:05  * FLHerne stops panicking and puts the kettle on
22:04:18  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:05:40  <FLHerne> The pypi entry says "2 - Pre-Alpha"
22:05:51  <FLHerne> I guess it's still 0.x
22:06:02  <LordAro> that's defined in
22:08:13  <mcbanhas> Sorry to divert your attention to this matter again, but how do you think STR_ERROR_BRIDGEHEADS_NOT_SAME_HEIGHT should be handled based on the following:
22:10:21  <LordAro> there's not really anything wrong with it
22:10:28  <LordAro> other than being a bit technical, perhaps
22:10:35  <LordAro> but "bridge head" is a perfectly valid term
22:10:50  <mcbanhas> Well some strings refer to bridge start and end
22:11:05  <LordAro> true
22:11:14  <mcbanhas> other says just "ends"
22:11:15  <LordAro> well, 1 other
22:11:29  <LordAro> "start and end" is correct, as it's referring to when you're drawing a line
22:11:40  <mcbanhas> simpler too
22:12:06  <FLHerne> "ends" would be ok, too
22:12:10  <LordAro> mm
22:12:15  <FLHerne> But not "end tiles" like andy suggested earlier
22:12:29  <mcbanhas> ok ends it is
22:12:30  <LordAro> ("bridge ends" rather than "ends of bridge", imo)
22:12:36  <FLHerne> Because bridgeheads can be ramps, so the end *tiles* might be at different levels :P
22:12:57  <FLHerne> Hm, am I subconsciously arguing in favour of that as one word?
22:13:06  <FLHerne> My fingers seem to think that's the right spelling
22:13:24  <LordAro> "bridgehead or bridge-head", says wikipedia
22:13:29  <LordAro> so probaly
22:13:35  <FLHerne> For consistency with the other one:
22:13:45  <FLHerne> "Start and end must be at the same level" ?
22:14:03  <LordAro> idk, i think i prefer bridgehead to be honest
22:14:09  <FLHerne> "Start and end must be in line" is an existing one and reads ok to me
22:14:42  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:14:59  <FLHerne> "Can't start and end in the same spot" -> "Can't start and end on the same tile"  ?
22:15:18  <LordAro> mm
22:15:31  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i notice website#157 is still waiting for you
22:15:38  <LordAro> though you did say "no earlier than"
22:15:44  <FLHerne> And "Bridge would end out of the map" -> "Bridge would end outside the map"
22:16:03  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, going back to that tunnel string from yesterday, do you think "Tunnel openings" is a good alternative to "tunnel entrances"? I dunno why but "entrance" spelled in the plural sounds a bit weird to me.
22:16:24  <LordAro> entrances are entrancing
22:16:33  *** Yexo has quit IRC
22:17:43  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Not really
22:18:07  <FLHerne> I wouldn't mind it, but I think 'entrances' is better
22:18:20  <mcbanhas> STR_RAIL_TOOLBAR_TOOLTIP_BUILD_RAILROAD_TUNNEL                  :{BLACK}Build railway tunnel:{}Underground passage for rail vehicles. Tunnel entrances can only be placed on sloped land at the same height level. A preview will be displayed if a path is possible. Shift+Click shows estimated cost without purchase
22:18:24  <andythenorth> portals!
22:18:33  <mcbanhas> porticuli
22:18:57  <mcbanhas> also "shown" over "displayed" I think
22:19:02  <FLHerne> Yeah, "portals" could work
22:19:26  <mcbanhas> nah I always associate portals with magic and summoning
22:19:43  *** Yexo has joined #openttd
22:19:43  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
22:19:45  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Possibly just delete "Underground passage for rail vehicles." ?
22:19:53  <FLHerne> Everyone knows what a tunnel is for
22:20:03  <FLHerne> And the tooltip is quite long anyway
22:20:14  *** matt21347 has quit IRC
22:20:27  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I like the little description tbh. I was trying to make sure all building tools would have one.
22:21:02  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I do like the way it reads, just question if it actually helps the user ;-)
22:21:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #157: Include final URL
22:21:36  <mcbanhas> Doesn't add anything necessary, no. But I think it's a nice touch.
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22:26:34  <andythenorth> it's a bit tautological, but eh, let's not die in a ditch over it
22:26:40  *** Foveafoxy is now known as Guest24693
22:26:48  <andythenorth> not sure we need to provide additional definitions for common words
22:27:01  * LordAro paints andythenorth's bikeshed blue
22:27:11  <andythenorth> how is the nuclear pile coming along?
22:27:25  <andythenorth> we still shipping bugs in prod?
22:28:20  <LordAro> yes
22:28:30  <andythenorth> probably fine
22:28:31  <LordAro> _dp_ wanted me to hold off on 1.10.2 release
22:28:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: nml 0.5.1 is out, and fixes all the bugs anyone's reported recently
22:28:39  <andythenorth> :o
22:28:42  <andythenorth> good
22:28:45  <andythenorth> thanks :)
22:28:47  <LordAro> see if he can get anywhere with desync debugging overnight
22:29:05  <FLHerne> And a few that no-one reported recently, but glx and I found while doing silly things :P
22:29:08  <andythenorth> so how do I represent natural gas in the game?
22:29:15  <andythenorth> methanol plant that produces like a primary?
22:29:41  <FLHerne> Pipelines? :p
22:29:46  <FLHerne> Pipelines as roadtypes?
22:29:52  <andythenorth> gas wells that don't produce, but the methanol plant counts neighbouring gas wells?
22:30:01  <andythenorth> PIPE grf does kinda work
22:30:03  <andythenorth> sorta
22:30:24  <FLHerne> Apparently there's an industry set with a map-wide electricity counter?
22:30:35  <FLHerne> Someone mentioned it on Reddit, but I forget which
22:31:48  <andythenorth> driving HEQS
22:31:55  <FLHerne> BSPI
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22:42:01  <mcbanhas> Oh BSPI is lovely
22:42:21  <mcbanhas> It's basicaly vanilla+ with a nice feedback loop to it
22:45:33  <mcbanhas> If it ever gets expanded to all biomes it's something I'd like to see integrated as an advanced setting in OpenTTD
22:49:13  <FLHerne> That won't happen
22:49:44  <FLHerne> Even things like rotatable and climate-aware airports are grf-only
22:50:15  <FLHerne> (personally I think that's a bit silly, but the argument comes around every year or so, and seems fairly settled)
22:50:31  <andythenorth> hmm 52 chemical cargos
22:50:37  <andythenorth> maybe I delete some stuff
22:50:39  * andythenorth also bedtime
22:50:42  <FLHerne> If you can do it in a grf, the base game doesn't get it
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22:51:39  <mcbanhas> Wasn't cargodist a NewGRF before?
22:51:48  <FLHerne> No
22:52:02  <mcbanhas> TTDpatch?
22:52:06  <FLHerne> Also no
22:52:27  <FLHerne> It was a standalone patch for a long time before it was merged
22:52:42  <FLHerne> (and YACD existed before that)
22:54:37  <mcbanhas> I think passenger and mail cargodist are the best things ever
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23:02:07  <glx> <FLHerne> If you can do it in a grf, the base game doesn't get it <-- for most things it's mostly because if it's in basegame all base grf must do it in the exact same way, while a newgrf is independant of base grf
23:11:12  * FLHerne sleeps
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23:55:28  <mcbanhas_> Anyone here uses Gnome Meld for handling track changes?
23:58:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BastianInuk commented on issue #8038: Fullscreen mode in MacOSX is almost unusable

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