Log for #openttd on 12th May 2020:
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00:10:15  *** TooTallTyler has joined #openttd
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01:02:21  <supermop_Home> well i forgot to eat dinner
01:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that might be a problem at 3AM :p
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02:04:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #140: 0.5.1 - animated forest tiles from OpenGFX+ Industries disappear
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02:45:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #141: Fix #140: non-advanced sprite layouts don't have flags
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05:00:02  <TooTallTyler> My town set decreases how much mail is produced by towns (houses produce nearly none, commercial is slightly increased) so I'd like to try increasing mail delivery payments to compensate. Does anyone know A: Mail's default price factor, and B: If I only define the price factor, will the cargo inherit its other properties from the base game cargo, or do I have to define the entire cargo?
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07:39:22  <andythenorth> o/
07:41:42  <planetmaker> o/
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07:49:01  <Samu> hi
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08:20:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry
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08:23:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry
08:24:15  <LordAro> i'm not going to merge them though :p
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08:55:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry
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09:06:49  <_dp_> LordAro, btw,
09:07:46  <LordAro> mm, i do recall reading something similar before, now that i think about it
09:10:05  <_dp_> LordAro, well, the whole STL is not templated for no reason ;)
09:11:34  <_dp_> and rust even dropped polymorphism in favor of templates xD
09:12:22  <_dp_> they're done much better in rust though
09:13:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] hpiirai opened issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile”
09:13:56  <Heiki> (yes, that was me)
09:15:29  <LordAro> Heiki: well that's problematic
09:16:02  <LordAro>
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10:07:42  <Yoshi> Hello, long time not heared ;)
10:09:18  <Yoshi> After the Bananas Upgrade... What is the current way of reporting copyright infringing content? Mail to
10:09:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches
10:12:41  <LordAro> Yoshi: if that was the way before, it's the way now too
10:12:46  <LordAro> that bit hasn't changed
10:13:06  <Yoshi> I'm not sure if it was the way before :D
10:13:16  <LordAro> neither am i :p
10:13:19  <LordAro> TrueBrain: ^ ?
10:13:21  <Yoshi> There is no embedded "report" function on bananas
10:13:56  <Yoshi> on, there is an listed at the contact form
10:16:02  <TrueBrain> Yup, mail to abuse. And we should indeed add it on the site too, good suggestion :)
10:16:32  <Yoshi> Who receives this email? :D
10:16:37  <TrueBrain> I hope abuse still routes the mail correctly, but it should :D (sorry, we don't have that many reports)
10:16:45  <TrueBrain> I for one
10:17:06  <Yoshi> The I'll just send a quick mail and stay here :)
10:17:18  <TrueBrain> But the point of these aliases is that enough people get it so it is processed :)
10:17:21  <TrueBrain> Sure!
10:20:11  <TrueBrain> Bah, cannot login to the server to check who is attached to the abuse alias :p feel free to CC me too; just to be sure :)
10:28:08  <Yoshi> Sent :)
10:30:21  <Yoshi> And sent again to you :D
10:31:20  <TrueBrain> Cheers. Most likely greylisted, so it might take a bit to reach me, but I will pick it up tonight. And sorry you had to use it ....
10:33:56  <Yoshi> I wonder why I didn't use it earlier... The three entries are from 2015 :think:
10:34:21  <Yoshi> Seems like I am absent for way too long time
10:34:53  <TrueBrain> Ghehe
10:35:39  <Yoshi> Transport Fever took over 99% of my free time on computer :D
10:41:35  <TrueBrain> Priorities! :p
10:41:57  <TrueBrain> Received the email. Will process it later today!
10:42:14  <Yoshi> Thank you :)
10:42:40  <Yoshi> If there are any remarks or questions, just respond to the mail
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11:01:44  <mcbanhas> Hello
11:04:08  <mcbanhas> So for the altered texts, I wanted o submit all capitalization changes first. Should I create a new PR or modify PR #7870?
11:07:54  <planetmaker> hi
11:07:59  <planetmaker>
11:07:59  <planetmaker>
11:07:59  <planetmaker>
11:08:11  <planetmaker> ^^ I received the e-mail and checked the validity of Yoshi's claim
11:09:08  <planetmaker> Yoshi, same question here, as you're around: are you ok with disabling the newgrf for all versions and removing it from the accessible list - but keeping it for people with a savegame which requires it?
11:10:02  <Yoshi> Hi planetmaker :)
11:10:08  <planetmaker> That stops distribution - except in cases where an existing savegame would be broken. I'd like to kindly ask you to allow continued distribution in that case
11:10:32  <Yoshi> What happens, if a new server has it in the list?
11:10:45  <Yoshi> Will clients still be able to download it?
11:10:58  <planetmaker> If a server's savegame would use it, yes, then the clients would be allowed to download it, too.
11:11:28  <planetmaker> that's technically "a savegame needs it"
11:11:36  <Yoshi> As far as I understand, Brianum was or is a server, thus, that was the only purpose of these entries.
11:11:55  <planetmaker> oh, ok
11:12:16  <LordAro> mcbanhas: probably ultimately cleaner if you make a new PR
11:12:31  <planetmaker> let me see... whether I can find the account
11:12:32  <LordAro> reuse is good, but we're not limited by numbers :)
11:15:05  <Yoshi> All three vehicles are included in the DACH 0.3.2, seems like whoever runs or runned that server jus extracted it and reduced the cost property
11:16:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker I wondered about replying to this, but not sure what to say?
11:16:35  <planetmaker> I'm not sure what to reply myself tbh...
11:16:48  <planetmaker> I'd like to suggest that people a working github solution
11:18:02  <andythenorth> coop infra is on life support?
11:18:10  <andythenorth> maybe we just say the facts and move on
11:18:12  <andythenorth> transparency
11:18:33  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, can I hand out the e-mail of the account who uploaded the NewGRFs in question?
11:18:43  <planetmaker> So that the two can sort it out themselves, ideally?
11:20:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes... I feel struggling to keep it properly running and maintained. It's better to move on. It's ... no-one properly taking care of... I'm still missing time. Was much more fun when it was a group of people
11:20:26  <andythenorth> :)
11:20:38  <andythenorth> maybe we just put that
11:20:46  <planetmaker> I don't mind at all to have the server running. But I don't have time to maintain all services
11:22:26  <planetmaker> Yoshi, may I hand out your e-mail to the account who uploaded the NewGRFs. With a time of like ... 3 days to respond to you so that you two can sort it out that either he updates or disables NewGRFs?
11:23:04  <planetmaker> And I'm sure you two can talk it out in German even ;)
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11:25:19  <Yoshi> You may send him as contact mail
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11:27:19  <planetmaker> ok. Thank you. 3 days is ok, and when he doesn't reply, please tell us again. We don't want your stand in that way... jsut have a good community where people can tal to eachother
11:27:36  <Samu> - the station is a buoy, the tile owner is water, the station->owner is none. This is intended behaviour for buoys, but why does it only crash in debug build?
11:28:55  <Samu> or will it also crash in release build?
11:29:17  <Yoshi> Planetmaker: Yes, indeed talking to sort things out is better :) Part of my everyday "job" over at the Transport Fever community too...
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11:38:12  <planetmaker> Hi,
11:38:12  <planetmaker> it was brought to our attention that three of your NewGRFs are violating
11:38:12  <planetmaker> copyright:
11:38:12  <planetmaker>
11:38:12  <planetmaker>
11:38:13  <planetmaker>
11:38:15  <planetmaker> The Graphics are originally part of the DACH set and licensed under GPL
11:38:17  <planetmaker> v2 - thus you are required to honour that license. CC-BY-SA is not a
11:38:19  <planetmaker> compatible license.
11:38:23  <planetmaker> Please contact the author of the DACH set
11:38:25  <planetmaker>
11:38:27  <planetmaker> immediately so that you can find a resolution to the issue.
11:38:29  <planetmaker> If we don't hear back within 3 days (that is till 15th May 2020) from
11:38:31  <planetmaker> the DACH set author, we will have to disable your NewGRFs unconditionally.
11:38:33  <planetmaker> Best regards,
11:38:35  <planetmaker> ^^^ that's what I sent him now
11:39:39  <LordAro> planetmaker: we tell people off for far fewer lines, y'know
11:39:49  <planetmaker> yes, I know
11:39:54  <planetmaker> rightfully :P
11:40:56  <Yoshi> sounds good :)
11:43:16  <Yoshi> Regarding the Talk is better than hard Judgement... Austrian Set by PNDA was such a case too. He took graphics from DACH Set without asking, but finally he sorted things out and even got more from me ^^
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11:46:06  <planetmaker> it most often is ignorance rather than malevolence
11:46:22  <Yoshi> indeed
11:46:27  <LordAro> good ol' hanlon
11:46:50  <Yoshi> but sadly, sometimes ignorance turnes over to malevolence, when the original author claims
11:47:52  <planetmaker> well. First thing I checked was: which NewGRF is older :) Then I checked graphics ingame for similarity... well. This case identical :)
11:48:24  <Yoshi> clear case :D
11:48:44  <planetmaker> this one very much so. I wish it always was that easy :)
11:49:31  <planetmaker> but ofc... it also was easy as I knew somewhat the DACH set
11:49:37  <Yoshi> ^^
11:50:00  <Yoshi> In german OpenTTD community, it nowadays seems to be as known as the DBSet ^^
11:50:37  <planetmaker> I'm not surprised. It's the difference between vapourware and something real :)
11:55:05  <Yoshi> I still need a 48hour day... then I could continue with all the old projects :D
11:55:21  <planetmaker> tell me about it :)
11:58:18  <Yoshi> Number One Item on my wishlist is the time reverser of Hermione
11:58:21  <Yoshi> ^^
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12:10:31  <supermop_Home_> hello
12:15:21  <Samu> I'm intrigued why does the save in #8142 load in 1.10.1
12:16:00  <Samu> should go through the same tests
12:16:04  <Samu> should fail
12:17:45  <LordAro> Samu: the fix in #8134 will be (or was going to be) in 1.10.2, it's not been released yet
12:17:53  <LordAro> so it's not going through the same tests
12:17:59  <LordAro> clearly the fix is wrong, or missing some edgecase
12:18:31  <Samu> what fix, where is it
12:18:38  <Samu> ah 8134
12:18:43  <Samu> nvm i fail
12:19:48  <LordAro> Samu: though please do investigate exactly what's happened
12:20:01  <Samu> it's about a buoy
12:20:20  <Samu> buoy has a tile owner OWNER_WATER
12:20:26  <LordAro> ah
12:20:31  <Samu> and the station->owner has OWNER_NONE
12:20:41  <Samu> mismatch
12:20:43  <LordAro> indeed
12:20:47  <LordAro> put it in the issue, please :)
12:20:54  <Samu> but all buoys are like that
12:21:11  <Samu> well, almost all
12:21:13  <LordAro> indeed, a missed edgecase in the fix
12:22:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile”
12:25:06  <Samu> reminds me of my Build on Competitor canal
12:25:25  <Samu> i had made changes to buoy owner
12:25:28  <Samu> there
12:27:28  <Samu>
12:27:31  <Samu> ya, i see
12:27:40  <Samu> exactly that where it crashes
12:29:17  <Samu> erm... not crash, i mean errors
12:29:25  <LordAro> yes
12:29:33  <LordAro> we all knew that
12:29:45  <Samu> sorry, I'm typically slow
12:29:50  <LordAro> that message was only added recently :p
12:29:57  <LordAro> no need to restate it
12:38:49  <andythenorth> planetmaker FWIW
12:40:08  <LordAro> andythenorth: copying the majority of what OGFX does should be enough for most people
12:40:23  <LordAro> possibly also with what nml does for adding files to the GH release
12:40:27  <andythenorth> if there are no python deps
12:40:34  <andythenorth> and it's just nmlc + a makefile
12:40:41  <LordAro> indeed
12:40:41  <andythenorth> seems vanilla?
12:40:55  <andythenorth> I did get Azure building FIRS and publishing it to S3
12:40:55  <LordAro> someone should make a friendly OTTD GH action :)
12:41:03  <andythenorth> but Azure is a lot of clicking buttons :(
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13:01:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given.
13:03:39  <FLHerne> Oops
13:03:44  <LordAro> FLHerne: also, is not None
13:03:49  <LordAro> s/not//
13:03:59  <FLHerne> LordAro: Yes, I know
13:04:21  <FLHerne> The 'and not sources' was a last-minute thought, and I clearly wasn't paying attention ;P
13:05:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given.
13:06:42  <Samu> _dp_ don't forget headquarter
13:06:52  <Samu> at #8140
13:06:56  <FLHerne> Oh now what
13:07:45  <_dp_> Samu, what about headquarters?
13:07:59  <Samu> they produce pass and mail
13:08:04  <_dp_> Samu, and?
13:09:27  <Samu> im not sure, does it handle HQs?
13:09:49  <_dp_> Samu, yeah, why shouldn't it?
13:10:54  <Samu> ok then
13:13:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different
13:13:29  <glx> stupid buoys
13:16:05  <Samu> glx have a look at my big PR #7937, it handles buoy owners
13:16:39  <LordAro> glx: waypoints aren't affected, are they?
13:16:53  <glx> waypoints have a real owner
13:17:27  <glx> buoys have none and the tile can be water owned or any player
13:17:53  <Samu>
13:18:01  <LordAro> FLHerne: ah, no f-strings in python3.5
13:18:03  <LordAro> sorry :p
13:18:41  <LordAro> though all the other versions have issues as well
13:18:41  <FLHerne> LordAro: We should just merge already :P
13:18:54  <LordAro> FLHerne: 3.5 still supported for a few more months :p
13:19:02  <FLHerne> I know, fixing it all
13:19:16  <Xaroth> I was summoned
13:20:15  <Xaroth> 3.5 is end of support; end of life in about 4 months iirc
13:21:01  <Xaroth> 3.6 is end of support and EOL end of next year, but it's also still used by some LTS distros
13:21:25  <Xaroth> so going beyond 3.6 is a bit meh atm
13:21:29  <LordAro> mm
13:21:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different
13:22:09  <LordAro> _dp_: good thing you made us wait for 1.10.2, otherwise we would've missed ^
13:22:32  <glx> and nice someone tried a nightly
13:23:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different
13:23:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile”
13:26:39  <_dp_> yeah, worked out nicely xD
13:26:42  <Samu> i would rather change buoys
13:26:57  <Samu> j/k
13:26:58  <glx> and introduce new bugs ?
13:27:10  <glx> not for an easy backportable fix
13:27:13  <Samu> introduce canal owners
13:27:51  <Samu> now I got to unfix your fix on my PR :)
13:27:56  <Samu> heh
13:28:12  <FLHerne> Xaroth: Only need 3.6 for the f-strings
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13:31:01  <Samu> _dp_, just tested headquarters, it still works, it uses the ForAllStationsAroundTiles
13:32:02  <mcbanhas> Anyone can tell me why I'm getting this error msg:
13:32:10  <mcbanhas> jvitorino@jvitorino-X550DP:~/openttd$ git checkout upstream -b <textupdate>
13:32:10  <mcbanhas> bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
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13:33:16  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: < and > are special characters to bash
13:33:19  <Yexo> If that's literally what you tried: The '<' and '>' symbols trigger text redirects, that's not what you want
13:33:46  <mcbanhas> yep that fixed it
13:33:54  <mcbanhas> thanks
13:34:13  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: `command > filename` means "write the output to that file"
13:34:33  <FLHerne> So it sees the >, and it's expecting a filename to follow
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13:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you really want the <> there, put it in single quotes: '<blah>'
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13:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but you shouldn't want the <> there, really
13:42:06  <Samu> IsSaveGameVersionUntil is conflicting with many of my PRs :( I wonder now if i place my code past the until or before the until
13:43:20  <glx> I'd say after as I guess you have a savegame upgrade
13:43:47  <Samu> ok, thx
13:44:13  <glx> it's logical to apply new fixes after others
13:45:18  <glx> unless the fixes are needed before other checks
13:48:57  <Samu> there should be a pull --force in github desktop. There is but once i make a change in visual studio, it's gone
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13:52:55  <Samu> there is no IsSaveGameVersionAfter function :(
13:53:23  <nielsm> that's just the negation of IsSavegameVersionBefore
13:53:35  <Samu> ah, that may work, gonna try
13:53:43  <glx> or negation of until
13:54:02  <glx> depending on wanted starting point
13:54:34  <glx> before is <, until is <=
13:55:34  <dwfreed> negation of < is >=, and negation of <= is >
13:56:10  <Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL)) && bst->owner != GetTileOwner(t)) SlErrorCorrupt("Wrong owner for station tile");
13:56:17  <Samu> testing
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13:57:29  <Samu> nop, failed
13:57:31  <Samu> im dumb
13:59:18  <Samu> 0x10 means... ONWER_NONE if I recall
13:59:22  <LordAro> Samu: that looks very much like the wrong solution
14:00:52  <Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || !IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL)) works
14:01:20  <dwfreed> which is different than what you had before
14:06:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
14:07:25  <Samu> there it is
14:09:20  <LordAro> Samu: please stop needlessly linking everything
14:09:23  <LordAro> it's literally right there
14:22:52  <glx> I don't think it's an issue to always skip the check when it's a buoy
14:23:48  <glx> they are not multitile anyway
14:24:21  <glx> the main reason for this check was multi tile and multi modal stations
14:24:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given.
14:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || !IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL))  <-- i'd probably de-morgan this to !(buoy && savegame)
14:38:38  <Samu> ok
14:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> my intuition tells me to use as few ! as possible in complicated logic
14:40:31  <dwfreed> especially since it's easy to miss
14:44:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
14:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if you're in saveload code you should probably emphasise the savegame version, so you might want to put that check first
14:46:40  <Samu> oh snap, ok
14:52:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
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14:55:24  <Samu> I'm not sure what to do with 8047
14:55:31  <Samu> let it go
15:04:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 opened pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
15:05:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
15:05:14  <mcbanhas> hold on to your butts
15:06:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
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15:07:41  <mcbanhas> Ok, I think that went well by the looks of it. LMK if you guys catch anything out of the line
15:07:53  <mcbanhas> It's the first time I'm doing a PR on my own
15:09:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI
15:10:35  <mcbanhas> Hmm some check appear to be failing. Any idea what's causing this?
15:11:16  <TrueBrain> <planetmaker> TrueBrain, can I hand out the e-mail of the account who uploaded the NewGRFs in question? <- no, that is never okay. You can only reach out to the email address asking if he is okay with it ;)
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15:12:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7822: Fix #7670: Cache the origin tile to prevent recurring calls to the road pathfinder when a vehicle is blocked by another
15:15:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
15:16:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting
15:18:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save.
15:18:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
15:18:52  <TrueBrain> Welcome DorpsGek_III , the spammer! Pfft ..
15:20:47  <Samu> it was IsSaveGameVersionUntil's fault
15:24:14  <LordAro> mcbanhas: the checks should tell you what's wrong ;)
15:24:31  <mcbanhas> Yeah i can understand one of them, but not the others
15:26:13  <LordAro> mcbanhas: because you've not kept your local copy up to date, so have ended up reverting some changes
15:26:20  <LordAro> which have caused the knock on error in all the other languages
15:26:25  <LordAro> james103 has pointed it out
15:26:39  <mcbanhas> That's one I figured out, but what about the other failed checks?
15:26:51  <LordAro> which others?
15:26:51  <glx> missing string
15:27:06  <glx> all checks failed on missing INR string
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15:43:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman opened pull request #8145: Fix: sdl2-config would always be detected as present
15:45:55  <blathijs> I'm looking at packaging OpenTTD 1.10 (a bit late, w00ps) and noticed that there is an SDL2 video driver. How stable and complete is that? Ready to be used by default on Debian, or better to stick for SDL1.2 for a bit more?
15:46:11  <LordAro> blathijs: perfectly stable and complete as far as we're aware
15:47:07  <blathijs> Ok, sounds good. Let's see if I can get it to compile, then :-P
15:47:50  <nielsm> just be aware that you can only use either SDL1 or SDL2 :)
15:48:28  <glx> and if both are found SDL1 is disabled IIRC
15:49:41  <nielsm> I suppose we should formally deprecate the SDL1 driver some time soon and remove it when the SDL2 driver is found to be stable
15:51:10  <LordAro> mm
15:51:32  <nielsm> maybe with cmake change so you only get SDL1 if you actively request it
15:51:39  <LordAro> though there was someone that wanted to keep it a few weeks back
15:51:43  <LordAro> was it the amiga port?
15:51:53  <nielsm> maybe something like that
15:52:09  <nielsm> can't they use allegro instead?
15:52:38  <nielsm> though allegro is barely maintained at all, nobody really uses it?
15:55:43  <mcbanhas> question, after I do commit --amend to replace a file, do I have to do commit --all afterwards?
15:55:51  <mcbanhas> Or will that just create a new commit?
15:56:05  <nielsm> commit creates a new commit unless you use --amend
15:56:31  <mcbanhas> But after I've done --amend it now tells me there are still unstaged changes
15:56:42  <nielsm> you can combine them
15:56:49  <nielsm> git commit -a --amend
16:02:20  <_dp_> lol, was curious how to check which sdl a I using, now I know that if switching to fullscreen kills X server that's sdl1 xD
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16:06:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman opened pull request #42: Fix: [Makefile] make sure installed filenames are as OpenTTD expects
16:07:50  <mcbanhas> im getting this error now
16:08:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #141: Fix #140: non-advanced sprite layouts don't have flags
16:08:23  <nielsm> you need to git push --force
16:08:28  <mcbanhas> aha
16:08:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
16:10:58  <blathijs> mcbanhas: I recommend --force-with-lease, which refuses to force if someone else pushed to the same branch since you last did, which is a bit safer.
16:11:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
16:12:59  <blathijs> Ok, SDL2 seems to work fine, nice :-)
16:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <mcbanhas> But after I've done --amend it now tells me there are still unstaged changes <-- you should "git add" before "git commit"
16:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> although i tend to go "git commit -a" unless i have some fancy mixed stuff
16:25:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
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16:30:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
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16:41:59  <andythenorth> oof only 26 cargos here
16:42:21  <andythenorth> but FIRS implementation is 52 cargos already :P
16:55:37  <mcbanhas> Do you guys actually play with THAT level of complexity?
16:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no. andy is just working on a pipe dream
16:57:01  <andythenorth> well played Eddi|zuHause
16:57:08  <andythenorth> you should do standup :)
16:57:27  <andythenorth> mcbanhas this works pretty well to play
16:57:45  <andythenorth> I am pushing for 64 cargos with the chemical economy
16:57:53  <andythenorth> it's an experiment in flow
16:59:19  <mcbanhas> curious to how much research you put into the inner workings of industry in general
17:00:52  <andythenorth> I find it really interesting
17:01:04  <andythenorth> it's like a puzzle
17:01:24  <andythenorth> especially chemistry where there are different processes around the world
17:01:32  <andythenorth> and there are multiple names for the same chemical
17:02:09  <andythenorth> and output can also be feedstocks to their own production process
17:02:14  <mcbanhas> I wonder how does one get into a specific business like
17:02:32  <mcbanhas> "ok i'm gonna invest on a polymer factory!"
17:02:46  <andythenorth> interesting isn't it
17:02:55  <andythenorth> also the amount of plastic we consume
17:02:57  <andythenorth> and where it comes from
17:03:01  <andythenorth> and what the alternatives are
17:03:15  <mcbanhas> The answer is usually oil
17:05:06  <mcbanhas> Almost everything we use these days has some form of oil derivate. Alternatives would simply disrupt the highly convenient chain of derivates you illustrated so well.
17:06:02  <mcbanhas> A few days ago I learned that even the majority of modern hydrogen production is achieved through natural gas.
17:14:39  <andythenorth> and yet on a basic level, it's all just elements and compounds
17:14:46  <andythenorth> other sources are possible
17:14:51  <andythenorth> or alternative processes
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17:18:58  <mcbanhas> andythenorth, you have any idea how many oil people would be pissed off over that possibility?
17:19:36  <andythenorth> I think the geo-political aspects of the fossil fuel lobby are a Known Thing
17:20:02  <andythenorth> whilst they have managed to capture control of multiple democracies and pseudo-democracies
17:20:14  <andythenorth> they are becoming less investable by capital markets
17:23:12  <mcbanhas> Because of the pandemic you think? Personally I think oil will go back to booming after this is over.
17:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: crude oil from various places have subtle differences in composition, which needs careful tweaking of the refinement process, so oil refineries are very reluctant to switching
17:29:09  <andythenorth> yes, it's a long term slow moving process
17:29:38  <andythenorth> but coal power generation is already un-investable in most developed economies even without carbon tax
17:29:45  <andythenorth> and gas generation is following
17:29:54  <andythenorth> the next thing will be petrochemical feedstocks
17:30:28  <andythenorth> assuming 30 year timelines
17:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they've been debating over here for the past 10 years over opening a new coal power plant that is already built (and which is supposed to supercede 3 existing ones)
17:31:22  <andythenorth> plastic consumer goods have big 2 issues: source of hydrocarbons, and destination of waste plastic
17:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> ... while at the same time debating over how quickly we can get out of coal power completely
17:31:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are you in the brown coal region?
17:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:32:01  <andythenorth> remarkable place
17:32:21  <andythenorth> we built round one of civilisation by digging up all that coal and burning it
17:32:30  <andythenorth> we built round two with all the oil
17:33:06  <andythenorth> where I grew up, you could pretty much see (or at least hear) a coal train any hour of the day
17:33:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we're now on the case of: can we build round 3 with neither of those, or is it gonna collapse in on itself?
17:33:28  <andythenorth> yes
17:33:32  <andythenorth> coal train line went past my house, my school, my next school, and the school after that
17:33:48  <andythenorth> could see 7 deep mines (coal) from one window of my house
17:33:54  <mcbanhas> I don't think coal is un-investable at all. China, for example, is still building new coal power stations due to the west's increased demand for electronics. Coal plants are cheap and quick to build.
17:34:18  <andythenorth> yes, this is the problem with supposed achievement of low-carbon economy in countries like UK
17:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: your information might be 5 years outdated
17:34:31  <andythenorth> we have simply outsourced steel and other high pollution industries to china
17:34:54  <andythenorth> India is mandating 100% EVs by 2030(?), but is digging up all of Queensland to burn as fuel for it
17:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> china is one of the leading drivers of dropping the price of solar panels, large swaths of the german solar industry have been bankrupted by that
17:37:53  <andythenorth> I was looking for an appropriate (non campaigning) source on fossil fuel divestment
17:37:55  <andythenorth> found one
17:38:11  <andythenorth> the actuaries will say it's a bad risk
17:38:25  <andythenorth> if you've ever met an actuary, they are pretty low emotion
17:39:35  <andythenorth>
17:40:01  <andythenorth> if you're uninsurable with mainstream insurance markets
17:40:07  <andythenorth> you're going to fail due diligence
17:40:20  <andythenorth> which means mainstream institutional investors (pension funds) won't invest
17:40:54  <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, two years at best
17:41:04  <andythenorth> this is a very big change from current *today* situation where fossil fuel investments are the major contributor of dividends to pension funds
17:41:11  <milek7> doesn't germany recently increased fossil enery share due to phasing out nuclear?
17:41:27  <mcbanhas> milek7, I heard the same.
17:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat-ish, but the complete nuclear shutdown hasn't happened yet. only the really old ones which should have been decommissioned by that point anyways
17:42:52  <andythenorth>
17:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> nuclear is a very controversial subject on that matter anyway
17:43:19  <mcbanhas> andythenorth, you mean stuff like 401ks?
17:43:46  <andythenorth> 401ks are pensions from large providers like Fidelity?
17:43:53  <andythenorth> index funds, mutual funds etc?
17:43:58  <andythenorth> not self-invested?
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17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> as you can see on those charts, the expansion of renewables easily trumps the loss of nuclear power. the main argument people were having was: "we could get out of coal earlier if we kept nuclear around longer"
17:46:46  <andythenorth> if we did the CCS we could keep burning the coal
17:46:49  <andythenorth> but CCS is unproven eh
17:46:53  <andythenorth> or is it?
17:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we're a few decades out from deploying CCS on an industrial scale
17:47:47  <andythenorth> it's unclear what it's for
17:47:51  <andythenorth> preserving oil industry wealth?
17:47:57  <andythenorth> declining coal mining jobs?
17:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and that doesn't solve the "we're still running out of oil" problem
17:48:23  <andythenorth> don't we have lots of it, just not economically accessible?
17:48:40  <andythenorth> if only we could somehow unfreeze all the methane hydrate from the bottom of the ocean :P
17:48:46  <andythenorth> so much hydrocarbon resource
17:49:00  <andythenorth> maybe by warming the oceans 4 degrees
17:49:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so as far as i can tell, germany's plan for now is: "hope there isn't a peak-renewables", "use natural gas as backup", "get out of the other stuff in a timely manner, without being too hasty"
17:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> where some powers want the latter to be quicker
17:50:38  <andythenorth> we have this small issue with things like Haber Bosch fertiliser
17:50:52  <andythenorth> which is 100% dependent on gas / naphtha currently
17:51:04  <andythenorth> and somewhat needed to...feed us
17:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a semi-strong argument at the second part, where it's "but you're making us too dependent on russia for gas deliveries"
17:52:43  <milek7> what does exactly installed solar capacity mean? it depends on season, doesn't it?
17:52:52  <milek7> average?
17:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> which recently escalated as orange-hair-dude intervened on an already almost-finished gas pipeline
17:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: installed capacity is just the covered area multiplied with an assumed efficiency value
17:54:32  <andythenorth> there will be a retrospective factual measure for any period
17:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there's actually 2 efficiency values: a) in case of direct solar input, how much power are you getting out, and b) how large of a fraction of time is actually full solar input
17:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the "installed capacity" is only concerned with a)
17:56:39  <andythenorth> anyway TL;DR
17:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so a) is mostly about what angle the sun is shining at it (averaged out over days/seasons), and b) is about how cloudy it is
17:56:55  <andythenorth> * change electricity supplier to 100% renewable, preferably gas supplier also
17:57:05  <andythenorth> * change pension fund if you have one, to divestment from fossil fuel
17:57:12  * andythenorth has done 1, not 2
17:57:24  <andythenorth> my pension provider was very proud that they have divested from tobacco recently
17:57:28  <andythenorth> and are therefore ethical
17:57:40  <andythenorth> so many wrongs
17:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> they should have done that 30 years ago...
17:58:29  <andythenorth> I think they probably did
17:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and 10 years ago they should have switched to ethical mining
17:58:36  <andythenorth> but they are still talking about it now
17:58:39  <andythenorth> as ethical behaviour
17:58:50  <andythenorth> suggests a gap of other examples :P
17:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and "ethical mining" not as in "we don't buy anything from Congo", but as in "we choose carefully who in Congo we buy from"
18:00:25  <andythenorth> :)
18:01:10  <_dp_> "we pay a share to some scammers in congo with good pr" :p
18:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i like this figure: "Share of renewable power generation: Norway: 106.8%" :p
18:03:24  <milek7> change gas supplier to what? renewable gas? such thing exists?
18:03:34  <andythenorth> yes
18:03:37  <andythenorth> I was surprised
18:03:43  <andythenorth> it's currently very minority
18:03:55  <andythenorth> biogas from crops or compost recycling
18:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: first thought would be bio-gas from human waste decomposition
18:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like, side product from water treatment
18:04:45  <andythenorth> that currently tends to be used directly on site for power generation
18:04:50  <andythenorth> but could be fed to the gas grid
18:05:01  <andythenorth> same from pig / cow farms
18:05:15  <andythenorth> manure digestion biogas
18:05:31  <milek7> it still generates co2 from combustion, so what is adventage of this?
18:05:39  <mcbanhas> If only solving the climate crisis was all about telling individual to change pension funds and power providers...
18:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: it's stuff that would have been released anyway
18:07:16  <andythenorth> the exact timeline is a question
18:07:35  <andythenorth> how long does methane from cow manure take to release vs. capturing it and burning it
18:07:40  <andythenorth> what's the rate of emission?
18:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: no, it's not about telling every individual to change habits, it's about putting levers on the right places
18:08:33  <mcbanhas> That sounds like fancy rewording
18:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: you're not diverting a river by going out and telling each water atom to change direction
18:09:18  <mcbanhas> That's sort of what I'm saying, yeah
18:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you're doing that by either making a few subtle changes so it gets harder to go one direction and easier to go in another direction
18:09:44  <andythenorth> not everyone has to change pension fund or power provider
18:09:46  <andythenorth> only 'enough'
18:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> psychology of herd movement is very tricky subject
18:10:28  <andythenorth> the UK has more capital to spend on renewable installation than our spatial planning regime will allow to be built
18:11:16  <mcbanhas> andythenorth, I still think that's wishful thinking. I don't believe you can simply fix problems that are caused by the way the economy itself is structured, which affects the way communities are organized, and the amounts of consumption. These are also to a large extent political problems that can only be fixed through serious political intervention.
18:11:43  <andythenorth> either / or thinking is quite a common fallacy
18:12:11  <andythenorth> it's quite a common self-inflicted brake on groups trying to be progressive
18:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem germany has currently with renewable energy production is that the majority production sites are not where the majority of power consumtion is, and they've been delaying the construction of essential power distribuition lines
18:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: that is not a new problem, it has at any time in history been discussed whether you can change enough by reform, or if you need an actual revolution
18:13:43  <andythenorth> there is probably an aphorism somewhere
18:13:51  <mcbanhas> the problem is that right now we are running out of time now.
18:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> where often the revolution wasn't actually solving anything, but ended up right back where it started
18:15:27  <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, that's cynicism at best and denying human and social advancements from political action at worst
18:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd dispute both of those claims, but it would be too elaborate for a simple irc discussion
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18:21:22  <andythenorth> revolution has a very poor track record afaict
18:21:30  <andythenorth> it tends to replace one elite with another
18:21:36  <andythenorth> and people die along the way
18:21:47  <andythenorth> not all revolutions are bloody
18:22:36  <andythenorth> but the existence of "The Bloodless Revolution" as a historical event suggests the common outcome
18:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> revolution has two main problems: 1) it creates reactionary forces that want "the old way" back (that is usually romanticised and never actually existed), and 2) it inherits all the problems of "the old way", and gets blamed for not solving them quickly enough
18:23:27  <andythenorth> also I think we've had revolutions
18:23:36  <andythenorth> Trump, Brexit, 5 Star etc
18:23:45  <andythenorth> alleged revolutions against ruling elites
18:24:05  <andythenorth> seizing of power by the people etc
18:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i
18:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd classify the trump/brexit camp actually in the "reactionary" part
18:24:42  <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, agreed
18:24:53  <mcbanhas> Even stuff like 5 star, etc
18:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> because the revolution was already on the way before they got into power
18:25:56  <andythenorth> I'd agree
18:26:11  <andythenorth> alleged revolutions
18:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 star is a bit trickier, because i would rather argue that they're of the 2nd camp. they were seeing the anti-berlusconi movement, and didn't get results quickly enough
18:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> same way as the ukrainian dude, where it was like "we've seen multiple back and forth revolutions"
18:27:19  <andythenorth> progress comes from capitalism
18:27:25  <andythenorth> almost entirely
18:27:30  <andythenorth> which is unfortunate
18:28:09  <mcbanhas> 5 star/brexit is more about "we want some of the nice things we used to have" over actually enacting real change
18:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> capitalism has undoubtedly created previously unimaginable momentum
18:29:07  <andythenorth> it's unfortunate because it concentrates unbelievable wealth and power in the hands of very few
18:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but the question we are facing right now is: are we actually in control of that momentum?
18:29:11  <mcbanhas> capitalism was great at mobilizing productive forces up until the 2nd half of the 20th century.
18:29:32  <andythenorth> without any kind of rationale, like divine birthright
18:29:41  <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, if one agrees with Nick Land, not really :p
18:29:56  <mcbanhas> Capitalism has sort of become a beast of its own.
18:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i don't think i've heard that name before
18:30:08  <andythenorth> bring back Kings!
18:30:15  <andythenorth> divine rulers!
18:30:18  <andythenorth> Popes!
18:30:23  <andythenorth> Czars!
18:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wouldn't rule out the possibility of that happening
18:31:54  <mcbanhas> It's already what's implied in the return of strongmen at the head of western economies
18:32:08  <andythenorth> many people would like it
18:32:16  <andythenorth> they would vote for that!
18:32:19  <mcbanhas> And that's the problem with populism
18:32:24  <andythenorth> elected dictators!
18:32:29  <andythenorth> happy days!
18:32:32  <andythenorth> colour TV for all!
18:32:43  <mcbanhas> People don't really like taking responsibility at the end of the day
18:33:09  <mcbanhas> It's sort of what is implied in representative democracies, division of labor, etc
18:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> anything more advanced than a stone age society needs specialisation of labour, and that includes people who specialize in leadership
18:34:17  <mcbanhas> On one hand you shouldn't be forced to have an opinion on every foreign policy or economic matter. The system should handle that for you, so you can have time to enjoy your life.
18:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the question at that point always is: how do you filter out people that are unfit for their specialisation
18:35:47  <mcbanhas> But on the other representative democracy assumes people and communities will make deliberate rational choices, which is a very outdated belief from classic liberalism
18:36:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause oh that's easy, you just promote them
18:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i forgot the name for that
18:37:01  <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, the same question can put on a different, more recent example: how does one prevent conspiracy theories from running amok during pandemic times?
18:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i think it's too early to tell :)
18:38:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause Peter Principle
18:38:22  <andythenorth> promotion to limit of competence
18:38:37  <andythenorth> so you end up stuck in a position you are not competent to fill
18:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i've seen someone propose that the problem was created by a history of to discredit previous conspiracy theories by injecting more absurd ideas into them. which is a concept that is now clashing by all those marginalised people now cuming together to form one giant wave
18:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that's what i was thinking
18:40:43  <andythenorth> one cannot prevent conspiracy theories running amok
18:40:48  <andythenorth> they are a memetic virus
18:40:59  <andythenorth> highly adapted to give a high R0
18:41:14  <andythenorth> one can counter them
18:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that you can't do something hasn't ever prevented people from trying
18:41:26  <andythenorth> we counter viruses
18:41:29  <andythenorth> we have remedies
18:41:55  <andythenorth> but unless we can vaccinate the human brain, we can't prevent memetic virus transmission
18:42:45  <FLHerne> We could just kill everyone
18:42:50  <andythenorth> Yes!
18:42:50  <FLHerne> That would work
18:42:56  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, ^
18:42:56  <andythenorth> form a political party for that
18:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the best explanation i heard so far was: "conspiracy theories are running amok because all the cancelled flights mean the government couldn't spray enough chemtrails"
18:43:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman opened issue #43: Favors .git version even in release tarball
18:43:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause that's wonderful
18:43:17  <andythenorth> I might have to share that
18:44:19  <mcbanhas> Anyway, who wants to have a look at some strings?
18:48:44  <milek7> election silliness continues there
18:49:07  <milek7> first insisting on 10 may, next haphazardly organized postal voting, then cancelled at last moment by party president, now again express pushing of law through parliament..
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19:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> very little foreign news currently penetrates the wall-of-corona articles
19:24:12  <mcbanhas>
19:24:20  <mcbanhas> folks can you help me improve these?
19:24:31  <glx> oh we had floodings this week end, changed from covid oriented news
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19:25:18  <mcbanhas> I only streamlined the phrasing little a bit. They could use a heavier re-wrte
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19:33:55  <nielsm> "Stays green as long as there is one or more green exit signals from the following section of track."
19:34:13  <nielsm> maybe "from the following signal block." instead
19:35:35  <nielsm> "Behaves in the same way as a block signal but"  <- I think "behaves the same way" (without "in") is okay here? not sure
19:36:39  <nielsm> "This allows you to build large ramifications of pre-signals"  <- I don't think the word "ramifications" is good here, it's certainly not the meaning I usually think of. maybe "cascades"?
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19:39:11  <nielsm> for path signals I'd really want to change the function description entirely: "Allows trains to pass if they can reserve a path to a safe stopping point. Reserved paths can not cross."
19:39:17  <mcbanhas> cascades sounds a bit weird. "Large branches" or maybe even "large networks"?
19:40:03  <nielsm> use the full description for both "normal" and one-way path signals, but add one of "Can be passed from the back" or "Can not be passed from the back"
19:42:41  <nielsm> "This parameter sets the number of tiles inbetween signals"  <- "Sets the number of tiles frome one signal to the next" (starting with "this parameter" is unnecessary)
19:54:25  <FLHerne> The number of tiles when?
19:55:03  <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals when dragging to build more than one"
19:55:07  <FLHerne> Or something
19:55:31  <FLHerne> That wording is bad
19:56:30  <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals built by dragging"
19:56:31  <FLHerne> No
19:57:24  <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals when building more than one"
19:57:39  <FLHerne> ...more than one at a time?
20:02:17  <nielsm> FLHerne I intentionally left out the second half of the sentence because that was fine
20:02:32  <FLHerne> nielsm: Oh, ok
20:03:48  <mcbanhas> Sets the number of tiles between signals when using auto-placement?
20:04:33  <mcbanhas> I dunno, I feel we must first decide what exactly to call the drag-to-autobuild function
20:05:08  <mcbanhas> Like I called it signal auto-placement on the other two lines below, but I don't think it's good enough
20:05:35  <mcbanhas> Maybe actually calling it "Drag-to-build" wouldn't be a bad idea
20:14:48  <TrueBrain> frosch123 : CC'd you as we should improve that error flow I guess :D
20:20:04  <nielsm> mcbanhas the problem with writing "between signals" is that it's not signals
20:20:17  <nielsm> when you set it to 1 you build signals every tile, with 2 it builds every other tile, and so on
20:20:38  <nielsm> uh the problem is that it's not *distance*
20:20:45  <mcbanhas> that's a good point
20:20:52  <nielsm> or... damn I think I should maybe sleep
20:21:10  <mcbanhas> then we can use the word interval
20:21:29  <nielsm> tile-frequency!
20:21:37  <nielsm> (that's a terrible term)
20:21:56  <nielsm> Tile-frequency of drag-construcuted signals
20:22:08  <nielsm> terse and obtuse <3
20:23:46  <nielsm> anyway, gn
20:24:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7896: Feature: Push-buttons on storybook pages
20:31:10  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, any more ideas?
20:31:40  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I'm not looking right now, trying to improve nml tests
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21:03:34  <andythenorth> I wanted a coal tar distillery
21:03:43  <andythenorth> as a source of paracetamol
21:04:03  <andythenorth> but I suspect I have a cargo quantity impedance mismatch
21:07:30  <milek7> cities needing paracetamol to grow?
21:10:14  <andythenorth> yes
21:10:25  <andythenorth> we probably don't ship trainloads of it though
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21:13:21  <andythenorth> 150k tons per year
21:13:27  <andythenorth> hmm
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21:52:18  <Speeder> hello
21:52:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini commented on pull request #157: Include final URL
21:52:42  <Speeder> so, I remembered that in 2014 I was messing with heightmaps, and stopped due to height limit being low
21:52:50  <Speeder> 2015 seemly got the height limit increased
21:53:01  <Speeder> so I decided to muck around with heightmap again, maybe release the one I was working on back then
21:53:49  <Speeder> my question is: if I got it right, each pixel of a heightmap is a CORNER, not a  tile?
21:57:17  <Yexo> Yes. The four corners of a tile can have different heights, so there is no such ting as "single height of a tile"
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22:00:18  <Speeder> so my 4096x4096 file for example I should load it on a 1024x1024 map?
22:02:18  <Yexo> No, corners of neighbouring tiles are the same, so while a single tile has 4 corners, in total there are as many corners as tiles on the map (modulo some extra at one border)
22:03:43  <Yexo> To put it differently: internally OpenTTD stores the height of the northern corner as "tile height". The height of the other corners can be gotten from neighbor tiles
22:06:34  <Speeder> ah I see
22:06:55  <Speeder> also anyone made a patch or something that lets you define on the heightmap file or another kind of file, where rivers are?
22:17:24  <Yexo> No idea, sorry
22:18:49  <milek7>
22:24:23  <Speeder> I found that but no idea how to get the patch :(
22:31:39  <mcbanhas> guys where can I find the bitmap for the tiny font? It doesn't seem to be in OpenGFX/sprites/png/gui/
22:32:45  <Yexo>
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22:45:11  <mcbanhas> Yexo, that's the newspaper font
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22:46:11  <Yexo> mcbanhas: there are actually 3 fonts in that file: regular, small and newspaper
22:46:22  <mcbanhas> oooh
22:46:25  <Yexo> contains the offsets
22:50:06  <mcbanhas> I found a compatible charset we can use to expand font to japanese
22:50:24  <mcbanhas> *this font
22:50:43  <mcbanhas> and corresponding charsets for the larger fonts too
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23:12:22  <glx> mcbanhas: easier to set a font in cfg :)
23:12:45  <mcbanhas> Yeah but it's not as nice
23:13:25  <mcbanhas> I mean this pixel font is also available in ttf, so it could be used both ways
23:13:35  <glx> and real font is resizable
23:15:01  <mcbanhas> btw, why isnt anti aliasing enabled for fonts by default?
23:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's the biggest worry we should have concerning fonts
23:31:42  <mcbanhas> what is the biggest wory concerning fonts then?
23:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> probably would be a better idea to ditch the sprite font entirely, and include a full TTF font suitible for all supportedlanguages
23:32:49  <mcbanhas> There is no such thing right now
23:33:29  <mcbanhas> Fonts that support extended latin + greek + cyrillic + hebrew + asian languages are rare
23:33:36  <mcbanhas> and usually not suited for video games
23:35:04  <mcbanhas> Much less one that resembles the classic ttd font
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23:36:28  <mcbanhas> Like, we can do that already for the newspaper font, because it's based on Liberation Serif
23:36:58  <mcbanhas> Which does have unicode support for the most part
23:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the bigges concern with fonts, however, would be an ingame gui to set them up
23:37:40  <mcbanhas> I don't think we need a gui for that
23:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we certainly do
23:38:53  <mcbanhas> I think first and foremost we need good fonts with enough character coverage that means it doesn't change to a system font every other language
23:39:38  <mcbanhas> I do understand what you're saying though, given how the UI scales on hi res
23:40:55  <mcbanhas> But before we even consider that, we need fonts that do the job
23:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> as you said, it's unrealistic that we find a font that fits all those criteria, which makes it even more important to make the setting more accessible to the players
23:43:33  <mcbanhas> Well that's why first and foremost I wanted to expand the pixel font into something workable
23:44:17  <mcbanhas> Because pixel fonts can still be turned into .ttfs
23:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it's pretty much impossible to extend the pixel font for things like arabic, which rely on all sorts of character connections and transformations
23:44:49  <mcbanhas> Lol, says who
23:45:39  <mcbanhas>
23:46:02  <mcbanhas> and yes, it includes ligatures
23:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but we can't have ligatures, because we can have only one sprite per character
23:47:33  <mcbanhas> what most arabic fonts do is that they have characters for every possible ligature
23:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but then you have to implement a system that translates character combinations to ligature-characters
23:48:47  <mcbanhas> That is correct, yes
23:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody is going to do that
23:49:17  <glx> on windows and macos we rely on the OS to do that for us
23:49:31  <mcbanhas> what about linux?
23:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
23:50:01  <Eddi|zuHause> on linux we use a library
23:50:01  <glx> there's ICU, with all its issues
23:51:44  <glx>

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