Log for #openttd on 24th May 2020:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:12:29  *** adikt has quit IRC
00:25:05  *** Progman has quit IRC
01:17:12  *** adikt has joined #openttd
01:22:34  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
01:35:29  *** gnu_jj has quit IRC
01:43:16  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
02:02:09  *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd
02:27:25  *** tokai has joined #openttd
02:27:25  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
02:31:28  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
02:34:22  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
02:45:20  <Speeder> I can't f igure how to make my msys2 install pillow :(
02:45:32  <Speeder> whenever I tyr it complains there is no libjpeg
02:45:36  <Speeder> but I installed all the ones I could find
02:53:51  *** D-HUND has joined #openttd
02:54:31  <Speeder> msys2 is just nuts
02:57:21  *** debdog has quit IRC
03:05:49  *** glx has quit IRC
03:22:44  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
03:31:30  <Speeder> D:
03:31:35  <Speeder> why building FIRS is so hard?
03:31:40  <Speeder> old nml doesn't run
03:31:44  <Speeder> new nml refuses to compile it
03:40:02  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
03:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, $someone once told me i shouldn't bother making nml backwards compatible when i attempted to do so
03:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "maintaining two branches is easy" they claimed
04:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there are probably 3 viable paths here: 1) roll back to an older system (probably just python) version to make nml run, 2) backport the commits that made nml run on the newer system/python to the 0.4 branch, or 3) revert the offending removal-commits from firs master
04:41:47  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
05:30:05  <Speeder> what was first version of nml that supports 16 outputs?
05:31:08  <Speeder> to make firs compile I ended making a franken toolchain with lots of mixed versions of old stuff until nml ran, and even then had to edit some py files on nml itself because it was using stuff that was removed from python
05:31:13  <Speeder> because I couldn't downgrade python
05:31:38  <Speeder> I sadly can't just use newer firs because they removed the stuff I want to actually use
05:33:49  *** keoz has joined #openttd
06:22:53  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
06:22:53  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
06:29:43  *** tokai has quit IRC
06:30:08  <Speeder> so grpahviz was crashing
06:30:23  <Speeder> so I download a new version, compiled with MSVC instead of mingw
06:30:30  <Speeder> copied all its bin files, pasted on mingw folder
06:30:33  <Speeder> now it works fine
06:30:34  <Speeder> :D
06:30:38  <Speeder> frankentools for the win
06:35:33  *** Progman has joined #openttd
07:04:11  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
07:30:21  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
07:35:02  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
08:01:25  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:12:52  <andythenorth> yo
08:14:45  <andythenorth> hmm
08:14:58  <andythenorth> the nml backwards compatibility approach
08:15:13  <andythenorth> does leave older graphs dead
08:15:21  <andythenorth> graphs? grfs :P
08:46:23  <Wolf01> o/
08:53:04  *** aRen22___ has joined #openttd
08:53:34  * aRen22___ slaps aRen22___ around a bit with a large fishbot
08:56:36  <aRen22___> !?
08:57:14  *** aRen22___ has left #openttd
09:04:26  <Wolf01> I think it happened something I couldn't understand :/
09:11:51  *** keoz has quit IRC
09:32:24  *** Samu has joined #openttd
09:32:32  <Samu> hi
09:43:24  *** keoz has joined #openttd
09:55:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, I think it's a mistake at this point
09:55:36  <andythenorth> I'm 50:50
09:55:41  <FLHerne> There's too much nml code to go around breaking it
09:55:56  <FLHerne> Maybe a 1-2 [feature] release deprecation cycle?
09:56:06  <andythenorth> if the docs were versioned it would make sense
09:56:16  <andythenorth> but we don't actually simplify it for authors
09:57:10  * andythenorth words, more coffee
09:57:36  <andythenorth> the intent of aggressively moving forward would be great, but we have to do all of that, not just some of it
09:58:52  <andythenorth> oof, there are too many FIRS forks on old versions of FIRS
09:59:09  <andythenorth> and FIRS is aggressive about moving forward, so they're stuck on the old version
09:59:27  <andythenorth> and they have no route forward because they're no develolopers like me
10:03:53  <andythenorth> hmm I really need more coffee
10:08:52  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
10:09:05  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
10:13:28  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
10:13:45  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
10:21:31  <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on?
10:22:22  <michi_cc> I can't imagine that any of the properties would pose a problem there.
10:25:47  <TrueBrain> fun random fact: the top 10 BaNaNaS objects (in terms of bandwidth) are good for only 45% of the traffic
10:26:42  <nielsm> michi_cc: I'm quite sure I had it working at one point
10:27:03  <nielsm> and then was told that NML syntax is not supposed to be backwards compatible and only keep the latest and greatest
10:27:52  <andythenorth> historically, AIUI, nml moved forward with removing syntax
10:28:13  <andythenorth> but I suspect that was due to a combination of 'mistakes were made' in nml
10:28:27  <andythenorth> and cleaning up weird parts of the newgrf spec that nobody should be using
10:29:24  <andythenorth> that's quite different to now
10:29:56  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
10:30:01  <michi_cc> Well, either nml should stay backwards-compatible, or the old (0.4) branch needs to get maintanance, too.
10:30:01  <andythenorth> there are all these FIRS forks made by people who will (1) struggle to upgrade the nml (2) struggle to maintain an old python environment
10:30:09  <andythenorth> oof :|
10:30:24  <andythenorth> its the problem of producing development tools for non developers
10:30:34  * andythenorth coffee :)
10:30:50  <andythenorth> I don't want to talk myself into an accidental sadness quit :)
10:33:39  <andythenorth> nielsm probably not hard to revert the removals?
10:33:53  <FLHerne> michi_cc: 0.5.0 actually had the original Produce block code, just unused
10:34:23  <andythenorth> the problem I see, maintaining the old syntax wins nobody anything, it just feels nicer
10:34:25  <FLHerne> It got removed in 0.5.1
10:34:44  <andythenorth> the grfs using the old syntax are dead either way
10:34:49  <FLHerne> Incidentally, I really don't love the new syntax, it's pretty ugly :-/
10:35:09  <andythenorth> deferring the issue that the authors aren't capable of updating doesn't make the grfs less dead
10:36:39  <andythenorth> my point would be much better explained by an xkcd :)
10:36:45  <andythenorth> is there an appropriate one?
10:36:51  <michi_cc> That assumes everybody wants to have 16-in-16-out cargoes, doesn't it?
10:37:21  <andythenorth> they will
10:37:25  <andythenorth> it's just a matter of time
10:38:02  <andythenorth> but I think they'll want mixed syntax
10:38:09  <andythenorth> they'll have 30 industries on the old syntax
10:38:21  <andythenorth> and 1 new one on the new syntax
10:38:28  <andythenorth> all with unique hand-crafted nml
10:38:46  <andythenorth> oof
10:40:06  * andythenorth should never be the nml maintainer
10:51:41  <andythenorth> nml 0.6?  Put the old syntax back? :)
10:53:48  <FLHerne> I don't know if it's worth trying to change that in retrospect
10:54:16  <FLHerne> Are there any NML industry grfs that *aren't* FIRS or a direct fork of it?
10:57:49  <FLHerne> I mean, I'd be +1, but I probably can't be bothered to do it myself :p
10:58:48  *** cHawk- has quit IRC
10:59:06  <andythenorth> I don't know what ECS is now
10:59:09  <andythenorth> BSPI is nfo
11:00:01  <andythenorth> (counting all the Auz Ind as one) I can name 5 FIRS forks
11:00:07  <andythenorth> there's probably more
11:04:27  <andythenorth> is it possible to have two different .exe files on windows?
11:04:39  <andythenorth> just wondering how much of a problem it is to have 2 nml
11:11:16  <nielsm> if you like to have both on path you can just rename one, like nml4.exe and nml5.exe
11:14:00  <andythenorth> ok so the biggest problem is people who depend on package managers?
11:14:08  * andythenorth has so many nmls :P
11:49:35  *** glx has joined #openttd
11:49:35  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
11:58:45  *** Borg has joined #openttd
13:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on? <-- i had a crude patch trying to unify the old and the new grammar, but i don't remember if there was anything needed for the internals. i think it was just about having both the old and new code to keep around
13:16:00  <nielsm> yea I'm pretty sure the hard part is making sure the grammar is unambiguous
13:16:49  <nielsm> also unrelated, the big update to derail valley is great, very much recommend if you like driving trains
13:18:12  <andythenorth> Speeder hmm
13:18:21  <andythenorth> oops unintended highlight :D
13:44:21  <glx> I think it should be possible to reintroduce removed industry vars, with a deprecated warning when they are used
13:45:36  <Speeder> glx, I would like that O.O
13:46:06  <Speeder> just woke up :D I liked that talk
13:46:32  <glx> as I don't see openttd removing support for old variables because old grf exist
13:47:37  <Speeder> the way nml works now, in my point of view, just make creating newgrfs a pain, any new newgrf author will likely want to fork whatever he is using
13:47:41  <Speeder> most newgrfs are old
13:48:21  <Speeder> so at best, a community of old nml authors will eventually show up
13:48:38  <Speeder> at worst, they don't show up at all, and you end with openttd content being made mostly by andy and noone else
13:49:01  <glx> for some nml features it can be hard to maintain both old and new syntax, but for variables it's quite easy
13:52:46  <andythenorth> and props
13:53:16  <glx> anything valid in newgrf spec should be valid in nml
13:53:38  <andythenorth> glx that just leads to people using crap parts of the API
13:53:50  <andythenorth> there are parts of the newgrf API that are borderline broken
13:54:01  <andythenorth> and it would be very confusing to authors
13:54:16  <andythenorth> Speeder out of interest, why can't you just use an older nml exe?
13:54:17  <glx> but variables and props should be ok
13:54:31  <andythenorth> yes
13:54:41  <andythenorth> it's still a false economy, because the older grfs are dead
13:54:52  <andythenorth> so maintaining support is weird
13:55:23  <glx> but authors could convert to new syntax more easily if old syntax still compiles
13:55:25  <andythenorth> but then again, if you want to do an NRT grf, and you have an older industry grf, nml 0.5 screws you
13:55:41  <andythenorth> and if you only know how to get nml from a package manager as 'latest' you're all out of luck
13:55:42  <Speeder> andythenorth, I am using the 4.5 one now, but I had to hack some of its py files
13:55:45  <glx> for a big grf it can be hard to do all conversion in one pass
13:55:47  <Speeder> because it uses stuff python removed
13:55:53  <Speeder> like "clock"
13:56:05  <andythenorth> yeah this is the problem
13:56:10  <andythenorth> I have all the pythons
13:56:12  <andythenorth> and all the nmls
13:56:35  <andythenorth> most people will just be dependent on a package manager, and no ability to install what they need
13:56:51  <andythenorth> the problem isn't nml, the problem is python is crap
13:56:58  <Speeder> since I wanted just to do a 'quick job' and I am on windows I tried to use package managers yes
13:57:03  <Speeder> ended with a mess somehow
13:57:04  <Speeder> msys2 is nuts
13:57:23  <glx> on windows there's the standalone exe
13:57:41  <Speeder> I have now 3 or 4 copies of libpng and pillow still refused to install on msys
13:57:42  <glx> at least I know it works for 0.5+
13:57:54  <Speeder> meanwhile my other python code I am using python 2.7 on windows
13:58:08  <Speeder> didn't want to risk installing python 3 on windows breaking python 2
13:58:32  <Speeder> glx, FIRS need Make
13:58:34  <glx> in msys many pip packages must be installed via pacman
13:58:37  <Speeder> so... no pure windows toolchain for that one
13:58:54  <Speeder> glx, I installed them with pacman, didn't work
13:59:00  <Speeder> python wouldn't detect them
13:59:10  <Speeder> installing pillow with pacman made python say it has no pillow
13:59:18  <Speeder> I ended finding some fugly hack on stackoverflow
13:59:25  <Speeder> interestingly even using "pip" didn't work
13:59:29  <Speeder> I had to use python -m pip
13:59:32  <Speeder> THEN it worked
13:59:42  <andythenorth> these days, I just install the python binaries, and virtualenv every project
13:59:56  <andythenorth> I used to fuck around with package manager python, but that's a disaster
14:00:06  <andythenorth> and for a while I built all the pythons myself, but also a disaster
14:00:54  <Speeder> the line to install pip:  python -m pip install --global-option=build_ext --global-option="-ldl" pillow==5.4
14:01:15  <Speeder> not using 'ldl' sometimes would crash the linker, wtf
14:02:23  <glx> pacboy -S python-pillow just works
14:03:23  <glx> and I see it in pip list
14:04:00  <glx> I think you also need pacboy -S python-pip
14:07:20  <Speeder> I did that, didn't work when I tried "make" on FIRS
14:07:37  <Speeder> dunno if it was because I was using mingw64 environment and should have used msys2 one or something
14:07:55  <glx> you never have to use msys2 env
14:08:24  <glx> and FIRS makefile is not the best ;)
14:08:51  <glx> I think andythenorth hardcodes stuff for his system in it
14:10:08  <FLHerne> Speeder: nmlc.exe has the Pillow/PLY deps and some interpreter version compiled in, it should just work
14:10:47  <glx> yes the standalone version contains full python and required libs
14:11:32  <FLHerne> regardless of anything else you have installed
14:12:04  <Speeder> ah I see
14:12:21  <Speeder> anyway, frankentools are working now... I will leave them alone for now :P
14:12:47  <glx> it's just slower because it needs to unpack in tmp every time
14:16:11  *** gelignite has quit IRC
14:18:43  <Speeder> any way to make stuff depend on powerplant being powered?
14:18:56  <Speeder> or to do that I would need to tinker with a "script" ?
14:22:50  <FLHerne> BSPI does it, but I have no idea how
14:23:18  <FLHerne> Borg must know
14:24:33  <nielsm> the powerplant sets some data on the town
14:24:38  <nielsm> and the other industries read that data off the town
14:26:37  <andythenorth> it's an interesting approach
14:29:17  <andythenorth> glx feel free to rewrite the FIRS makefile btw
14:29:24  <andythenorth> you'd be the 4th person to supply one
14:29:47  <andythenorth>
14:30:03  <andythenorth> strictly speaking, I should move the install target to Makefile.local
14:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the Makefile should have the default one, and Makefile.local can be used to override it
14:39:13  <nielsm> TrueBrain: looks like some kind of issue with bananas/opengfx download
14:40:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause but what is the default?
14:40:07  <andythenorth> it's platform specific
14:40:12  <TrueBrain> nielsm: kinda disagree; seems he downloads it fine :)
14:40:20  <TrueBrain> seems more like OpenTTD is not picking up on them
14:40:24  <TrueBrain> common cause: openttd.cfg in random place
14:40:36  <TrueBrain> but how do you read a download issue in that thread?
14:40:36  <nielsm> well he gets NightGFX downloaded as the default graphics set
14:40:40  <glx> yup download seems fine
14:40:52  <TrueBrain> that for sure is not possible :D You have to select it :)
14:41:02  <nielsm> it's the second report I see of someone just installing the game and ending up with NightGFX
14:41:16  <andythenorth> call it a feature :)
14:41:18  <TrueBrain> maybe the bootstrap does funky stuff?
14:41:28  <andythenorth> is it the official binary? :P
14:41:40  <glx> nielsm: macos for both ?
14:42:13  <TrueBrain> <- that readme is out-of-date :D
14:42:29  <Borg> everything is in forum of BSPI on tt-forums
14:42:45  <Borg> Town storage per GRF..
14:42:52  <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems someone needs to debug with him a bit; but I don't see how it is an infra issue, so not much I can do to help. This requires a bit of OpenTTD debugging
14:43:14  <TrueBrain> of course if someone uploaded NightGFX under the OpenGFX name, stuff like this can also happen .. not sure hwo uploaded OpenGFX <latest> to BaNaNaS :D
14:43:27  <andythenorth> urgh, USB-C and NVME is so slow
14:43:31  * andythenorth backing up :P
14:44:20  <nielsm> yeah the other case was also mac:
14:44:27  <Speeder> andythenorth, how I add multiple names to an industry? my attempt doesn't compile
14:44:41  <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap of OSX doing?
14:45:43  <Speeder> nevermind, literally typing "make" several times in a row, made it work
14:45:44  <Speeder> O.o
14:46:23  <Speeder> nope, it didn't
14:46:27  <Speeder> it compiles partially
14:47:01  <andythenorth> Speeder what are you trying to do? o_O
14:47:18  <Speeder> andythenorth, repurpose clay pit to be bauxite mine, since it looks similar
14:47:31  <Speeder> so I just added a line that change clay pit name to bauxite mine (I edited the language file too)
14:47:42  <Speeder> but the compiler says I am trying to concatenate a tuple Oo
14:48:01  <Speeder> File "src/", line 117, in get_industry_all_names
14:48:02  <Speeder>     result.append(base_lang_strings.get(name_string, 'NO NAME ' + name_string + ' ' +
14:48:02  <Speeder> TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "tuple") to str
14:48:05  <nielsm> reproduced on windows:
14:48:45  <nielsm>
14:49:03  <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap doing?
14:49:07  <TrueBrain> how does it pick one or the other baseset?
14:49:26  <TrueBrain> (I really have no idea; never looked at that code :P)
14:50:17  <andythenorth> Speeder do you want the clay pit?
14:50:19  <nielsm> _network_content_client.RequestContentList(CONTENT_TYPE_BASE_GRAPHICS);
14:50:34  <Speeder> andythenorth, I just want to reuse claypit, so it outputs bauxite ore
14:50:46  <FLHerne> Speeder: At least one version of FIRS had an actual bauxite mine
14:50:46  <nielsm> I think it just requests the first base graphics set bananas returns
14:50:50  <FLHerne> 1.x?
14:51:01  <TrueBrain> nielsm: lolz .. that would be ... stupid? Silly? Not sure what word I want to use here :D
14:51:20  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
14:51:24  <Speeder> FLHerne, mixing 1.x with 3.x sounds quite nuts
14:51:37  <nielsm>
14:51:43  <nielsm> is what I see from those two functions
14:51:56  <Speeder> still, Brazil is a huge net exporter of Bauxite... and we had two infamous accidents with bauxite mines in the last 4 years, can't just skip it
14:52:30  <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is like ... really silly :D
14:52:36  <TrueBrain> so for years it downloaded just what-ever came first :)
14:52:46  <TrueBrain> most likely also explains why often it was downloading an older OpenGFX
14:52:54  <TrueBrain> so this was chance based :D
14:53:00  <Speeder> (we had two different mines, but belonging to the same company, have their dams break and flood nearby towns with mud... imagine just like the default FIRS clay pit grpahics, where the site of the industry breaks open and all the water and mud slides out and wipes out a town completely out of the face of the earth...)
14:53:07  <andythenorth> Speeder what FIRS version?
14:53:10  <TrueBrain> ideally, it should show a dropdown for you to pick a version, I guess
14:53:14  <Speeder> 3.soemthing I am hacking
14:53:20  <TrueBrain> nielsm: what we can do, is fix this for now in bananas-server
14:53:22  <Speeder> 4 removed the economies I want
14:53:26  <TrueBrain> but possibly this needs attentions in the client too :)
14:53:38  <FLHerne> Speeder: Aren't you making your own economy anyway?
14:53:54  <nielsm> TrueBrain: I suppose that would be the best yes, show a list of all basesets available (and their download size) and ask which one to use, and probably default to OpenGFX explicitly
14:54:09  <Speeder> FLHerne,  yes, but it is heavily basded on Extreme and Hot Country
14:54:21  <TrueBrain> the first tt-forums you showed btw is only part of this story, ofc. For some reason his own downloads are also not showing up
14:54:29  <Speeder> <<< how it looks when a bauxite mine gobbles up a town
14:54:33  <TrueBrain> but yeah, we can fix this in the infra for now :)
14:54:36  <andythenorth> if you just want to change the name, edit
14:54:39  <nielsm> but yeah some hack to make bananas always return opengfx first and maybe with a slight delay before any other sets
14:54:49  <andythenorth> but it's not very sustainable approach to editing FIRS :)
14:55:16  <TrueBrain> the list returned is just that, a list
14:55:19  <TrueBrain> so no need for a delay :)
14:55:22  <Speeder> andythenorth, I added one more line to that file
14:55:26  <nielsm> okay good :P
14:55:27  <TrueBrain> (in the same package are like N contentinfos :) )
14:55:38  <nielsm> I was afraid it was like one packet per item and they could risk being reordered
14:55:40  <Speeder> andythenorth, then did like the steel mill does, changing the name on my economy only, to refer to that line
14:55:49  <Speeder> but it instead complains it is concatenating tuples, everywhere
14:55:54  <TrueBrain> but it shouldn't only put OpenGFX there, also the latest OpenGFX :)
14:55:56  <FLHerne> Speeder: v4 should still have most of the industries you're interested in, though?
14:56:01  <Speeder> FLHerne, no idea
14:56:13  <FLHerne> The 'economy' file is pretty much just a list of the cargos
14:56:13  <andythenorth> Speeder probably a missing ',' or an extra ','
14:56:42  <FLHerne> IMO, forking a version that's already outdated and won't build with current tools is a bad idea long-term
14:56:53  <Speeder> andythenorth, you were right :D
14:56:59  <TrueBrain> a nasty and unexpected "bug" nielsm  :) I will fix it tonight :)
14:57:08  <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd be +1, but the v4 branch contains missing features
14:57:11  <andythenorth> 'contains'
14:57:12  <andythenorth> :P
14:57:42  <andythenorth> industry closure doesn't work, and occasionally openttd reports an industry doing something invalid
14:59:17  <Speeder> how it would do something invalid?
14:59:30  <andythenorth> I didn't look yet
14:59:44  <andythenorth> it's not a consistent warning, so it's either FIRS (likely) or OpenTTD
15:01:27  <andythenorth> Speeder it's probably plausible to migrate to FIRS v4 later
15:01:39  <Speeder> andythenorth, can a CARGO have multiple multiple names?
15:01:48  <andythenorth> yes, but it's unwise
15:01:50  <TrueBrain> purely because OpenGFX was the first entry in the database, this was working fine in the old setup nielsm  :D By accident, basically :P Who ever implemented bootstrap, was rather lazy tbh .. :P
15:01:52  <andythenorth> and there's no benefit
15:02:25  <Speeder> andythenorth, why?
15:02:32  <Speeder> the benefit is that Brazil doesn't have sugar beets
15:02:37  <Speeder> but is a huge producer of sugar cane
15:03:09  <Speeder> but everythign else is same as FIRS already have, so I would like to just rename sugar beets to sugar cane and change the graphics :)
15:06:01  <andythenorth> that's actually the case where I removed support
15:06:11  <andythenorth> sugarcane / sugar beet used to be 1 cargo, 2 names
15:06:15  <andythenorth> it's a headache
15:06:18  <andythenorth> just add sugarcane
15:07:06  <andythenorth> label is SGCN
15:07:36  <andythenorth> it's 1 python file, 3 lang strings, 1 import, and some crap with the icon
15:08:15  <Speeder> ah
15:10:37  <Speeder> oh, it already exists :D
15:10:39  <Speeder> nice
15:11:49  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:12:56  <andythenorth> ping me if you get stuck adding the cargo
15:36:51  <Speeder> is it possible to make on a GRF, have "final" industries have a gameplay effect?
15:36:55  <Speeder> like powerplants affecting  town growth
15:37:00  <Speeder> or builders yard speeding up building?
15:37:19  <Speeder> or needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built
15:37:23  <glx> town growth is controlled by cargos
15:39:14  <FLHerne> "needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built" should be possible in the callback
15:39:50  <FLHerne> Does delivering building supplies already improve town grown in FIRS? I thought so
15:40:45  <andythenorth> nope
15:41:18  <andythenorth> it makes me irrationally sad :)
15:41:22  <andythenorth> like, it's just a game
15:41:49  <andythenorth> but it bothers me more than it should :)
15:43:24  <Borg> Speeder: <- Callback 0x22 should do the trick
15:44:34  <_dp_> it's possible on paper but may not be good enough for a gameplay
15:44:54  <Speeder> well... Brazil has a huge economy around aluminum
15:45:05  <Speeder> and part of it is that we have a lot of power dedicated to that too
15:45:11  <Speeder> although it is the other way around
15:45:21  <Speeder> aluminum companies build factories, THEN they build powerplants
15:45:39  <Speeder> we also have a major cement manufacturer that built several coal powerplants for their own use
15:46:19  <Speeder> I would love if I could put hydro powerplants in t he game but... it probably would make more sense as decoration than an industry :(
15:47:45  <andythenorth> I have tried all this stuff
15:47:48  <andythenorth> OpenTTD can't do it
15:47:54  <andythenorth> and it will never be able to
15:48:20  <Borg> still. a lot has been done... :)
15:48:42  <Borg> I think people should focus more on math on industries.. instead building endless chains..
15:48:43  <Speeder> andythenorth, I thought of doing it with scripts
15:48:46  <Speeder> is that feasible?
15:49:02  <Borg> not sure.. how people play game these days.. but I its boring when its stabilizes fast..
15:49:15  <Speeder> Borg, explain better please :)
15:49:21  <Borg> Speeder: did you look at BSPI?
15:49:44  <Borg> I regred I didnt made it 10 years ago.. oh well.. ;) didnt had so much free time...
15:49:45  <Speeder> never heard of it
15:50:19  <Borg> oh.. long story short... its default OpenTTD industries in stockpiling mode.. but there are extra params..
15:50:39  <Borg> like.. Power Plant produces electrice power.. w/ is needed by secondary industries
15:50:51  <Borg> all primary industries can have reserves with depletes... and industries close
15:51:01  <Borg> secondary industry production depends on stockpiles and ratings.
15:51:11  <Speeder> cool
15:51:19  <_dp_> Speeder, with GS it depends on details, sounds possible for the most part but UI will probably suck
15:51:22  <Borg> primary industries needed valueables in town zones to boost production....
15:51:26  <Borg> and its not all 0/1
15:51:49  <_dp_> Speeder, like you can probably implement energy requirements but where do you show how much energy one has?
15:51:50  <Speeder> _dp_, with GS I am more thinking this: when certain conditions are met, industries get built on their historical locations
15:51:52  <Borg> you need scale everything... because its depeneded on each other..
15:52:11  <andythenorth> Speeder GS is really unpleasant to work with
15:52:18  <_dp_> Speeder, in town window or company goals mb if that fits but if you want power in a region to build industry there is nowhere to show it
15:52:20  <andythenorth> but don't let me put you off :)
15:52:36  <andythenorth> you have to manage savegame state, which is really fricking hard
15:52:41  <Speeder> for aluminum I am thinking this: at a certain date, bauxite mines get built on a certain place... (by the way, does "prospecting only" screw my GS?)
15:52:59  <Borg> why it should screw it?
15:53:00  <Speeder> then when industrial aluminum is supposed to start, GS build powerplants and aluminum factories
15:53:16  <Speeder> Borg, the prospecting only option, affects GS?
15:53:18  <Borg> I play w/ with prosepcting only and custom GS... to handle industries preseed.. and regenerate them only for first 25 years..
15:53:51  <Borg> I dont really understand... what do you mean affects it?
15:53:53  <Speeder> for example: I want to build stuff on specific x, y positions, does prospecting-only option blocks that for the GS?
15:53:59  <Borg> nope
15:54:06  <Borg> its independed settings
15:54:40  <Speeder> ah nice
15:55:16  <Borg> Speeder: from what I hear.. you need to employ both GRF and GS.. for what you want to do
15:55:24  <Speeder> Borg, it is what I am suspecting yes
15:56:05  <Speeder> but well... I already spent 288 hours or so just making the map... this year, that is.
15:56:10  <Speeder> I started this project allt he way back in 2014
15:56:20  <Borg> ugh... :) quite a lot..
15:56:20  <Speeder> I abandoned it back then because height limit was making the map look completely awful
15:56:23  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really poor at anything other than coop style 'MOAR' gameplay
15:56:36  <Borg> Speeder: you sure its worth the effort? :)
15:56:38  <andythenorth> it can't do scripted scenarios etc
15:56:51  <Borg> focus on economy model... but just generate maps.. its more fun imo
15:57:00  <andythenorth> most scripting tends towards goal achievement, which are usually just 'transport moar'
15:57:02  <Borg> whatever good scenerio you will do.. it will get bored after all..
15:57:06  <Speeder> andythenorth, the scripting I Want to do is mostly so I can make the game start in 1700 but still end with historic industries in correct places
15:57:12  * Borg loves RNG..
15:57:35  <andythenorth> Speeder will probably work
15:57:35  <Wolf01> Make a route in less than 12 parsecs?
15:57:51  * andythenorth just rambling now
15:58:09  <andythenorth> but the ultimate OpenTTD games are played with YETI, NUTS and PURR
15:58:11  <Wolf01> Without terraforming
15:58:16  <andythenorth> that's what OpenTTD is good at
15:58:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, "FASTER" style also works if done right ;)
15:58:37  <Borg> andythenorth: yeah.. too bad I dont see BSPI servers yet ;)
15:58:38  <andythenorth> variant of MOAR :P
15:58:59  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really crippled as a simulator where things change over time
15:59:06  <andythenorth> it's so bad, we should almost remove time evolution
15:59:11  <andythenorth> which would solve a lot of problems
15:59:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is crippled as a simulator period xD
15:59:25  <Speeder> seriously, for this project, stuff I learned so far: Python, GIS in general, QGIS, where to find official government maps of stuff, where to find non-official maps, a lot about my country geography that I never knew, tinkered a little with a .nuts script, learned a lot of weird functions for libre office calc...
16:00:12  <Borg> Speeder: if this gives you a fun... then go ahead... thats whats matter...
16:00:13  <andythenorth> _dp_ too true :)
16:00:27  <andythenorth> I am playing a game at the moment, it's good
16:00:32  <Borg> dont try to do something for community tho.. you can be seriosly disappointed..
16:00:38  <andythenorth> I was using pause mode a lot
16:00:48  <andythenorth> I wish the trains and industries would continue running in pause mode
16:00:50  <andythenorth> it would be much better
16:00:54  <Borg> lool?
16:01:03  <Speeder> the python thing I am not sure if I am just crazy genius or idiotically dumb... but basically I concluded that I was too lazy to fight installing a toolchain for C (my favourite language) just to process my GIS data... python 2.7 was already installed, so I went with: "well, learning python must be easier than installing C toolchain on windows"
16:01:09  <Borg> andythenorth: no comment ;P
16:01:10  <andythenorth> pause the game, but all industries and vehicles keep running
16:01:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: date cheat
16:02:18  <FLHerne> (auto-date-cheat would be nice)
16:02:24  <Speeder> Borg, I am making project mostly to myself, and to learn things, get out of my rusty spot
16:02:39  <Speeder> although I even went to college to learn gamedev, my current "day" profession is marketing
16:02:47  <Speeder> and my game making skills were getting too rusty for my taste
16:03:23  <Speeder> I was missing all this mucking around in toolchains, coding, researching, etc...
16:04:14  <Borg> thats ok then... :) I prefer to play games instead... but if I dont like sth.. I will mod it..
16:04:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the problem with unpausing it?
16:04:19  <Borg> but then.. m000ar gaming :)
16:04:21  <_dp_> especially in a singleplayeyr
16:04:43  <Borg> I b0rked a lot of games... :D
16:07:48  <andythenorth> FLHerne yes like the date cheat, but built in :P
16:08:46  <Speeder> where I get information on what the industries paremeters does?
16:08:53  <Speeder> so I can get the balance right, at least in theoretical math
16:09:12  <andythenorth> which parameters?
16:13:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ did you ever come up with a solution for newgrf vs. GS vs. game economy? :P
16:13:33  <andythenorth> we both hate it, I have NFI what would be better
16:14:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, yes and no
16:14:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, what I do lately is techically no newgrf, no GS and no economy xD
16:14:46  <_dp_> but it's ok xD
16:14:57  <Speeder> andythenorth, I mean: production multiplier, cost rate, what is "clustering", etc...
16:15:51  <_dp_> though I guess you can call it economy as money actually matters
16:16:08  <_dp_> it's just that you can spend a lot of money to save a bit of time
16:18:08  <andythenorth> I never figured out what the problem I have is :P
16:18:21  <andythenorth> but it's so weird that town growth has *nothing* to do with cargo
16:18:28  <andythenorth> and is only based on 'have 5 stations'
16:18:37  <Speeder> ???
16:18:39  <Speeder> explain that Oo
16:18:48  <andythenorth> town growth has nothing to do with cargo
16:19:26  <andythenorth> currently the game mechanic is something like this:
16:19:36  <andythenorth> - transport cargo from industries to make money
16:19:54  <andythenorth> - picking up this cargo will cause nearby towns to grow and block your routes
16:20:03  <andythenorth> it's such a weird game
16:20:10  <andythenorth> fortunately town growth can be turned off
16:20:38  <andythenorth> town growth reminds me of the brownouts and traffic in original simcity
16:20:45  <_dp_> that's not quite how it works but whatever, default growths makes no sense
16:21:23  <andythenorth> it's like getting penalised for success
16:21:30  <andythenorth> towns just spam the map
16:21:46  <_dp_> but there are GS to make it better
16:21:52  <andythenorth> GS is a joke :)
16:22:09  <andythenorth> I tried making one, it's way too hard for me
16:22:09  <_dp_> for a timed goal citybuilder is pretty much the best there is
16:22:13  <andythenorth> I'm not a good enough developer
16:22:22  <andythenorth> have to deal with saveload and all that crap
16:24:03  <_dp_> yeah, it's bad...
16:24:08  <andythenorth> I think the reason we have so few GS is that only proper programmers can write them
16:24:13  <andythenorth> whereas any idiot can write a newgrf :)
16:24:23  <_dp_> not that doing it in C++ like me is much better but at least there are more possibilities
16:25:52  <_dp_> andythenorth, in my opinion it's the opposite, proper programmers don't want to deal with that shit :p
16:28:40  <Speeder> andythenorth, your economies have themes, what was the idea with the original "extreme" one?
16:28:48  <andythenorth> there wasn't one
16:28:52  <andythenorth> that's why I deleted it
16:29:02  <andythenorth> it was mostly a copy of Railroad Tycoon 3
16:29:45  <Speeder> ah I see
16:29:54  <Speeder> well, it is being a good base for my brazil economy :D
16:30:02  <Borg> andythenorth: I agree that GS is hard... I know C very well.. but I had problems with GS...
16:30:06  <Speeder> I thought I would only expand it but just removed grain
16:30:10  <Borg> but once you pass certain point.. it goes easier..
16:30:17  <andythenorth> dealing with state is always hard
16:30:27  <Speeder> grain was using slots I needed for other things... and Brazil doesn't produce grain. (grain requires cold climates)
16:30:30  <andythenorth> newgrf doesn't have to manage state at all
16:30:54  <Borg> andythenorth: nah.. its not about state..
16:31:05  <Borg> I had very serious problem between Instance and Class.. on GS
16:31:16  <Borg> but once I got it... it went smooth
16:31:50  <_dp_> extreme idea is MOAR industries :p
16:31:51  <Borg> and in GRF you can have states as well ;P
16:32:13  <andythenorth> yes but OpenTTD manages it for you
16:32:20  <andythenorth> much easier
16:33:30  <Speeder> FIRS have some hard-on for fruit or something
16:33:42  <Speeder> whenever I look at my graph it has tons of arrows around fruit
16:33:45  <Speeder> :P
16:33:47  *** Flygon has quit IRC
16:34:46  <andythenorth> oof, I have lost interest in my OpenTTD game
16:35:20  <Speeder> andythenorth, you have left any other leftover industries or cargo in FIRS3 ?
16:35:29  <andythenorth> leftover?
16:35:34  <Speeder> like sugarcane
16:35:48  <Speeder> stuff that has graphics and maybe some code but is not in use in any economy
16:35:58  <andythenorth> look in the __init__ files for cargos and industries
16:36:05  <andythenorth> see if anything is commented out
16:36:58  <Speeder> andythenorth, sugarcane wasn't commented out, I had to add it back in
16:37:20  <Speeder> I found some industry named only "factory"
16:37:25  <Speeder> that is seemly not enabled in any economy
16:37:54  <andythenorth> I mostly delete unused things
16:42:14  <andythenorth> house grfs can control town growth, right?
16:43:10  <nielsm> not directly, I don't think
16:43:33  <nielsm> I think houses can reject being built by callback but that's it
16:44:17  <andythenorth> that would work
16:44:33  <andythenorth> so FIRS could patch all the baseset houses, so they won't build
16:46:22  <nielsm> and there's also a callback for "protecting" a town building from destruction/replacement (except by direct player action)
16:46:33  <andythenorth> Borg how does BSPI control towns?
16:46:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry
16:47:02  <nielsm> very appropriate report
16:49:11  <Speeder> I really wish I could use more than 2 outputs now D:
16:49:30  <andythenorth> oh we removed the train length markers from depot? :(
16:49:32  <andythenorth> that's sad
16:49:43  <andythenorth> I didn't see the commit for that
16:51:12  * andythenorth bisects
16:52:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility
16:53:02  <glx> it can compile FIRS master
16:53:22  <Speeder> it bothers me graphcs won't match production but I think I will need to make mixed farm produce 2 plant items
16:53:23  <Speeder> :/
16:53:39  <andythenorth> depot train length markers are present in 1.10.0 release
16:55:02  <andythenorth> interesting, they're missing on a specific savegame
16:55:59  <FLHerne> glx: Nice
16:56:39  <FLHerne> Some kind of deprecation warning might be wanted unless we want to support it indefinitely
16:56:53  <glx> oh it warns a lot :)
16:57:15  <Borg> andythenorth: BSPI does not control towns at all..
16:57:20  <FLHerne> Oh, I see it
16:57:25  <Borg> if you mean.. growth rate..
16:57:31  <andythenorth> yes
16:57:44  <andythenorth> so towns don't require power to grow?
16:57:50  <Borg> nope..
16:58:13  <Borg> I tought I could add paracitic power usage by towns.. but that would complicate whole math again..
16:58:36  <FLHerne> Maybe too much warning, even :p
16:58:41  <andythenorth> so they deplete the amount in register?
16:58:53  * andythenorth has an idea
16:59:05  <andythenorth> what if towns were re-implemented as industries?
16:59:22  <Borg> hmm
16:59:23  <andythenorth> oh there's no 'None' option for towns
16:59:28  <andythenorth> that's annoying
16:59:40  <Borg> or... maybe add some kind of production callback to towns itself too? ;)
16:59:46  <andythenorth> that's been ruled out
16:59:49  <andythenorth> towns are GS or nothing
17:00:42  <andythenorth> hmm, I might abandon FIRS, I'm kinda fed up with it
17:01:07  <Borg> Im a industry guy.. reallly... I never really grow towns except for goods dumps..
17:01:29  <Borg> but. in BSPI I added that thingie w/ valueables.. when you really need to grown towns.. so bank productions scale...
17:01:40  <Borg> I hate doing it... but I do it :) I wish I had PAX coop players
17:01:49  <andythenorth> I did that with junk yard in FIRS
17:01:53  <andythenorth> depends on town popn.
17:02:05  <andythenorth> I did it to give an incentive to grow town
17:02:14  <Borg> yep.. and it works very well
17:02:14  <andythenorth> but actually, growing towns is dumb as F
17:02:26  <andythenorth> they're so stupid
17:02:31  <Borg> im really happy w/ BSPI... v2.00 have just minor thing added (or major... )
17:02:41  <Borg> Organic Industries have fertility..
17:02:47  <Borg> so they can disappear too...
17:03:03  <Borg> andythenorth: well... I agree... GS script could solve it... but im too lazy to do it
17:03:17  <Borg> if someone competent could provide city builder GS scripts... would be nice
17:03:39  <Borg> they made them pretty nice... you start w/ pasangers.. and if city growns certain point.. you need to provide goods...
17:03:45  <Borg> and also... this is not 0/1
17:04:08  <Borg> its like in BSPI... ith math... bigger city -> moar passangers and goods you need to provide to for growth.. thats cool
17:04:25  <Borg> all my games I run w/ both GRF + GS..
17:04:32  <Borg> so I have no problem to split functionality...
17:04:40  * andythenorth tries BSPI
17:04:45  <Borg> andythenorth: wanna 2.00?
17:04:48  <Borg> not yet released
17:05:00  <andythenorth> does it change a lot?
17:05:15  <andythenorth> I really don't want to go the GS route
17:05:18  <Speeder> andythenorth, you made iron horseĀ²
17:05:20  <Speeder> ?
17:05:22  <Borg> some minor tweaks + Param1, bit3: organics have fertility
17:05:26  <andythenorth> Speeder yes
17:05:30  <andythenorth> not alone
17:05:32  <Borg> andythenorth: you dont need GS at all for BSPI
17:05:47  <Borg> I use GS only for industries preseed (I play w/ prospecting only) and to limit towns growth to 20k
17:05:53  <Borg> because I dont want them to take over the world :D
17:05:55  <andythenorth> I have NFI how I would merge GS together
17:05:58  <Speeder> andythenorth, what is the reason it removes maglev?
17:06:13  <Speeder> (not complaining, I isntalled it because one guy said it was good idea because it removes maglev, but I don't understood why)
17:06:22  <andythenorth> I saw that reddit post
17:06:31  <andythenorth> I would file that under 'people on reddit say odd things'
17:06:45  <andythenorth> it removes maglev because by convention, vehicle grfs remove the default vehicles
17:06:55  <Speeder> basically, I found an old reddit post where someone recommended a server that is specialized in 1700s gameplay
17:07:09  <andythenorth> Borg got a link? or forum DM
17:07:09  <Speeder> the webpage was down ,but I found a early version of it on
17:07:27  <Speeder> the guy recommends using FIRS and Iron Horse (not even 2, I think it didn't existed back then)
17:07:39  <Speeder> and said he likes Iron Horse because it removes default maglev, and then he install other maglev
17:07:45  <andythenorth> [emoji]
17:08:23  <Borg> andythenorth: <- BSPI v1.00
17:08:43  <andythenorth> I got 1.01 off bananas :)
17:08:46  <Borg> if you want 2.00 let me know.. I will give you temp url... I played a game w/ it and it works great.. but I want it 100% bug gree :D
17:08:49  <Borg> yeah..
17:08:56  <Borg> I reupload v2.00 when it will be flawless
17:09:26  <Borg> andythenorth: read the forum.. because it have some Param1 bits for extra stuff
17:09:33  <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 8
17:09:37  <Borg> no wait
17:09:39  <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 7
17:09:40  <Borg> I mean :D
17:09:55  <Borg> but in forum its all info..
17:09:59  <andythenorth> bitmasks :)
17:10:08  <Borg> yep
17:10:40  <Borg> also..
17:10:46  <Borg> disable smooth_economy
17:10:58  <Borg> people raported weird things when smooth economy is enabled
17:11:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters
17:11:11  <andythenorth> smooth economy :|
17:11:21  <Borg> I hate it :D
17:11:38  <Borg> smooth economy makes changes boring..
17:12:33  <andythenorth> so industry will only produce if power station in same town is supplied?
17:12:36  <Borg> but I implements industry production changes.. both monthly and random..
17:12:46  <Borg> andythenorth: yes.. and as I said.. its math..
17:12:56  <andythenorth> how are you forcing every town to have a power station?
17:13:02  <Borg> I dont :)
17:13:09  <andythenorth> oh
17:13:11  <Borg> player should build it
17:13:15  <andythenorth> yes I see on the map
17:13:59  <Borg> hence.. thats why I use GS as well.. (not published yet)
17:14:02  <andythenorth> oh lol all the coal mines on the map closed at once
17:14:06  <Borg> LOL?
17:14:09  <andythenorth> I guess I changed a setting
17:14:25  <Borg> ahh.. applied setting on running game?
17:14:27  <andythenorth> yes
17:14:30  <andythenorth> bad things happen
17:14:32  <Borg> :)
17:14:51  <Borg> andythenorth: if you have 1.8.0 openttd
17:14:52  <nielsm> I should finish up that GS industry control PR
17:14:56  <Borg> you can jump in to my server... :)
17:15:15  <Borg> so you can take a look.. but. playing alone slowly is fun too
17:15:17  <andythenorth> can't run 1.8.0, it's 32 bit :)
17:15:21  <andythenorth> I will try locally
17:15:42  <andythenorth> nielsm others might, but I don't think I'd ever write a GS to try and fix FIRS
17:16:10  <andythenorth> there are too many roadbumps to make it worth it
17:16:28  <nielsm> FIRS doesn't have as much of that problem with industries closing before anyone begins servicing them
17:16:54  <nielsm> don't default settings in FIRS basically make industries never close?
17:16:57  <andythenorth> yup
17:17:20  <andythenorth> newgrf closure doesn't work :)
17:17:28  <Borg> huh?
17:17:31  <Borg> works...
17:17:35  <Borg> I use it in BSPI
17:17:39  <Borg> at least for primaries
17:17:43  <nielsm> because that's the main problem I invented that PR for, allowing scenarios to have pre-built industries that stay put until a player begins servicing each
17:18:27  <Speeder> oooh, found lots of cool removed stuff on git, I will see if I can restore them reverting-cherry-picking somehow
17:18:31  <nielsm> anyway imma play some more derail valley
17:18:37  * andythenorth should play Blitz
17:19:25  <Borg> andythenorth: one Power Station can supply 2-4 industries (layout depended)
17:19:39  <Borg> I mean... 100% prod for Power Station and Industries in same time
17:19:51  <Borg> but.. of course.. U can have twice the industries running at 50% each
17:20:13  <Borg> in BSPI.. there is much more micro to play..
17:20:26  <andythenorth> primary production growth is the classic % transported?
17:20:37  <Borg> yep.. at least 75%+ to up..
17:20:45  <Borg> if <50% it start to drop
17:20:59  <Borg> also.. stockpiles must be sufficient.. around 250 units per 4%
17:21:08  <Borg> 24 bands..
17:21:53  <Borg> dont worry... cargo ratio calculation is affected :) works well..
17:22:00  <Borg> I mean modified
17:23:01  <andythenorth> oops I supplied a power station with no secondaries in the town
17:23:05  * andythenorth failed
17:23:24  <andythenorth> Borg what size maps do you play normally?
17:25:10  <Borg> small maps... 256x256 or 512x512
17:25:15  <Borg> I like it tight ;)
17:25:25  <andythenorth> makes sense
17:26:12  <Borg> yeah... its hard to grow network too large w/ extractive stuff.. becuse industries runs out of resources and close
17:26:24  <Borg> and you need to reprospect them.. so.. its always something to do.. to adjust
17:26:38  <Borg> my current server game is 2500 year.. and still going..
17:26:47  <Borg> map is very very growded now. because I dont close old stations..
17:27:01  <Borg> because sometimes... industry spawn just right close to it.. so I can reuse it right away :)
17:27:23  <Borg> and if not very close.. I do transfer stations using normal rails...
17:28:17  <Borg> anyway.. bbl :) if you have questions.. shot.. I will answer them later..
17:32:23  <Speeder> andythenorth, I see why you are removing stuff from firs... your IDs are full
17:33:09  <andythenorth> not yet
17:33:10  <andythenorth> but soon
17:33:25  <Speeder> andythenorth, FIRS3 are full, no vacant IDs for sprites
17:33:33  <Speeder> meaning I can't just restore the old ones you deleted
17:34:18  <andythenorth> you're getting an nml warning?
17:34:53  <Speeder> no, I mean I opened the file, and tile_numeric_ids has all IDs in use, it seems
17:35:00  <Speeder> unless you skipped lines
17:35:33  <andythenorth>
17:35:42  <andythenorth> there are 100 or so vacant
17:36:03  <Speeder> ah, I can go "backwards" ?
17:36:08  <andythenorth> yes
17:36:12  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
17:36:16  <Speeder> I thought those ids couldn't overlap with the industry_numeric_ids ones
17:36:21  <andythenorth> original FIRS was trying to not conflict with default industry tiles
17:36:24  <andythenorth> I don't know why
17:36:37  <Speeder> you didn't made original FIRS?
17:36:45  <andythenorth> I didn't write much of the code
17:36:50  <Speeder> ah
17:56:26  *** iSoSyS has quit IRC
18:20:02  *** keoz has quit IRC
18:51:31  *** Borg has quit IRC
18:51:35  <Speeder> andythenorth, so what is "output ratio" and what is "prod multiplier" ?
18:53:23  * andythenorth looks
18:53:43  <andythenorth> looks like prod_multiplier is for primaries
18:54:00  <andythenorth> it's the amount of cargo they produce 7 or 8 times a month or so
18:54:32  <andythenorth> looks like processed_cargos_and_output_ratios is for secondaries
18:54:48  <andythenorth> it's the required cargos, and how much they produce per 8 units delivered
18:56:07  *** plastic has quit IRC
19:10:39  <andythenorth> when attempting to place industries, could OpenTTD test whether it can terraform the location?
19:10:51  <andythenorth> or does that have performance problems?
19:13:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I guess combined with tile-placement callbacks you'd have a mess
19:13:30  <FLHerne> How does it know *how* to terraform the location?
19:14:54  <andythenorth> extended industry layout specification, encodes permitted tile height relative to the north tile
19:15:08  <andythenorth> slopes are already somewhat known, but require running the cb :(
19:15:24  <andythenorth> alternately, take a copy of the whole map, and try terraforming n times to see if it works :P
19:15:36  <andythenorth> the objective is larger industries
19:17:12  <andythenorth> but eh, the bigger the industry, the slower the terraforming check?  something(n)
19:20:17  <FLHerne> glx: Sorry, I think I was wrong :-/
19:20:49  <glx> for identifiers ?
19:22:02  <FLHerne> Yeah
19:22:57  <FLHerne> I didn't properly understand the effect of the `return` in pre_process(), it made more sense the way you had it :-(
19:23:08  <glx> haha
19:23:13  <glx> I can easily revert
19:23:21  <FLHerne> Maybe a comment in parse_actionD though
19:33:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters
19:39:48  <andythenorth> I never noticed the stereo on the sound effects before :)
19:40:58  <Speeder> how industry GRF authors test if economy is working right?
19:41:06  <Speeder> ie: check if there is no over or underproduction
19:41:16  <glx> they play
19:42:08  <andythenorth> they play, endlessly
19:42:19  <andythenorth> and sometimes they break their savegame, and have to start again :P
19:57:44  <Speeder> just stumbled on this... is it outdated?
19:59:07  <LordAro> Speeder: if you're not sure, the answer is yes
19:59:45  <FLHerne> Speeder: Very
19:59:49  <FLHerne> Speeder: You want
20:01:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: In your experience, is pypy 7.3 dramatically faster than 7.2?
20:01:32  <FLHerne> Or did my laptop suddenly get faster? :p
20:02:29  <andythenorth> FLHerne I don't have comparison numbers
20:02:43  <andythenorth> but FIRS compile is now really really quite fast
20:02:53  <FLHerne> I mean it's, like, twice as fast as pypy was before
20:03:03  <FLHerne> And that was pretty fast compared to CPython :p
20:03:40  <andythenorth> it's a remarkable improvement
20:04:13  <andythenorth> hmm, I should have benchmarked my old laptop and this one against each other
20:04:25  <andythenorth> this one drops 0.6Ghz on the clock speed
20:04:51  <andythenorth> but gains on intel turbo boost (if it uses it, can't tell)
20:05:57  <andythenorth> could we multi-thread the parse step and the pre-processing? :P
20:06:21  <andythenorth> 'probably not'
20:14:16  <andythenorth> ha ha, when drawing FIRS industries, I sometimes use a single-industry compile option
20:14:23  <andythenorth> it's < 3s now for that
20:17:09  <glx> andythenorth:  nmlc warning: "generated/firs.nml", line 293: Named parameter 'market_tree_snow' is not referenced, ignoring. (v4-release-track branch)
20:17:32  <andythenorth> that's interesting
20:17:49  <andythenorth> is that newly discovered from the PR?
20:18:08  <glx> using nml#151 yes
20:19:47  <andythenorth> do we have nml PRs queuing up? :)
20:20:48  <glx> for #151 I hope Eddi|zuHause can test it, but that needs some changes in CETS
20:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not ready to test that yet
20:22:42  <glx> no hurry :)
20:23:05  <glx> anyway this change may break all worklow similar to CETS one
20:23:18  <glx> *workflow
20:25:15  <FLHerne> glx: Ah, I was just trying it out on FIRS
20:38:26  <Speeder> whoa, just noticed biofuel on FIRS is for 2001
20:38:29  <Speeder> will have to change that
20:38:41  <Speeder> brazillians probably easily forget biofuels outside here are uncommon :P
20:39:07  <Speeder> (first biofuel plant in brazil was in 1925, and government heavily funded a lot of them in 1970s because of the petroleum  shock)
20:40:54  <andythenorth> yeah, I might backdate that one day
20:41:19  <andythenorth> there is long history of biofuel, but the FIRS treatment was a bit 2000s USA
20:42:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne approved pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters
20:44:38  <Speeder> andythenorth, how I bump firs version so I don't mix with yours?
20:45:25  <FLHerne> If you're going to distribute it, you should change the grfid (and name)
20:45:32  <andythenorth> +1
20:45:55  <Speeder> when I am going by car to my grandparents home, I pass a ludicrous amounts (like, continuously occupied land in a 300km long stretch of road) of sugar cane plantations, biofuel factories and sugar factories
20:45:58  <Speeder> also they are incredibly smelly
20:46:09  <Speeder> thing is, WHERE is that? O.o
20:50:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters
21:10:21  *** Samu has quit IRC
21:10:26  <FLHerne> Speeder: src/templates/header.pynml
21:11:05  <Speeder> ah :D
21:15:49  <Speeder> prob_in_game is in what scale?
21:15:53  <Speeder> when the game checks that number?
21:20:33  <FLHerne> 0.255, relative
21:21:25  <FLHerne> When placing industries at map creation, and I think also when they appear while playing
21:22:36  *** nielsm has quit IRC
21:24:16  *** Progman has quit IRC
21:26:22  *** Smedles has quit IRC
21:27:16  <Speeder> I was trying to understand if it was percentage or not
21:27:21  <Speeder> but seemly game decides it WILL build an industry
21:27:26  <Speeder> it just doesn't know what one
21:27:28  <Speeder> I got that right?
21:27:48  *** Smedles has joined #openttd
21:27:50  <Speeder> thus the number is just used to "pie-chart" the chance between industries to get built?
21:36:05  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
21:37:41  <FLHerne> Yes
21:42:23  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
21:56:27  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
21:56:39  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:09:11  *** tokai has joined #openttd
22:09:11  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:16:13  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
22:22:04  <Speeder> andythenorth, why FIRS 3 seemly... totally ignores the ratio variables?
22:22:17  <Speeder> it even checks if they are valid and all but never writes that to the nml
22:29:49  <FLHerne> Speeder: Which 'ratio variables' ?
22:30:26  <Speeder> FLHerne, for example: processed_cargos_and_output_ratios=[('BEAN', 6), ('FRUT', 6)],
22:30:35  <Speeder> code elsewhere complains if the sum is not 8
22:30:47  <Speeder> but seemly this never ends in the NML anywhere
22:34:23  <FLHerne> It should get written into the produce() blocks
22:34:38  <FLHerne> See src/templates/produce_secondary.pynml
22:35:46  <FLHerne> (I think, andythenorth would know better)
22:38:34  <FLHerne> Bleh, FIRS' stupidly huge nml file makes my editor sad
22:40:39  <andythenorth> Speeder is that the brewery?
22:40:53  <Speeder> in that one I pasted yes
22:40:55  <Speeder> why?
22:41:17  <andythenorth> brewery isn't combinatorial
22:41:25  <andythenorth> so it doesn't check the sum is 8
22:42:06  <Speeder> no idea what this means
22:42:13  <Speeder> when something is combinatorial?
22:42:26  <andythenorth> examples:
22:42:35  <andythenorth> brewery will give 6 out for every 8 in
22:42:40  <andythenorth> any cargo
22:43:01  <andythenorth> but blast furnace
22:43:24  <andythenorth> will give 3 steel out for 8 iron ore in
22:43:42  <andythenorth> or 2 steel out for 8 coal in
22:43:56  <andythenorth> or 3 steel out for 8 scrap metal in
22:44:05  <Speeder> combined_cargos_boost_prod <<< THIS?
22:44:10  <andythenorth> if both iron and coal are delivered, there will be 5 out
22:44:14  <andythenorth> yes
22:44:27  <andythenorth> if iron ore, coal and scrap metal are delivered, there will be 8 out for 8 in
22:44:43  <Speeder> ah
22:45:12  <andythenorth> there is a 3 month delivery window
22:45:21  <andythenorth> they don't all have to be simultaneous
22:45:22  <Speeder> so combined industries will always produce 8, assuming fully stocked?
22:45:28  <Speeder> and non-combined can produce less than 8?
22:45:43  <andythenorth> probably yes, I haven't read the actual code
22:46:01  <andythenorth> but that check sounds like I enforced 8
22:48:39  <Speeder> so you didn't enforce 8 for non-combined because when fully stocked they won't produce more than 8?
22:49:55  <andythenorth> yes
22:50:30  <Speeder> so the brewery, if you supply 8 of each  item, will produce 6 in total, and consume 4 of each item?
22:53:46  <andythenorth> no
22:54:01  <andythenorth> if you supply 8 of each, it will produce 12 and consume 16
22:54:05  <andythenorth> in total
22:54:55  <Speeder> ah alright
23:14:11  * andythenorth bed
23:14:20  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
23:27:40  <Speeder> what cluster does on FIRS?
23:49:35  *** gelignite has quit IRC

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk