Log for #openttd on 30th May 2020:
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01:10:08  <supermop_Home> yo Pikka
01:10:22  <supermop_Home> hows it there?
01:13:13  <Pikka> hallo
01:13:19  <Pikka> not bad :)
01:13:27  <Pikka> you?
01:16:13  <supermop_Home> well i'm in what seems to be the comically bad place to be for the past 3 months
01:16:27  <supermop_Home> but fine
01:16:43  <supermop_Home> 20% pay cut but at least i still have a job
01:17:42  <supermop_Home> i haven't heard much about any differences between various aus states actually
01:23:01  <Pikka> fun times, eh? :)
01:23:03  <Pikka> bbl
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02:28:44  <supermop_Home> whooooooooa
02:28:46  <supermop_Home>
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03:57:54  <Speeder_> is there any obvious disvantage to having complex industries set?
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06:38:26  <LordAro> Speeder_: you ask a lot of questions
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07:35:29  <andythenorth> o.
07:35:57  <Wolf01> /ᐠ.ꞈ.ᐟ\
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09:04:30  * andythenorth considers eveil
09:06:08  * andythenorth recants
09:06:35  <andythenorth> single-process graphics generation is much faster under pypy than py3.8
09:07:00  <andythenorth> but using a process pool with 16 workers, pypy is slower than py3.8
09:07:08  <andythenorth> guess there's substantial overhead
09:14:14  <Wolf01> Use both?
09:28:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: PyPy is a JIT, that's why it's fast
09:29:17  <FLHerne> That means there's compilation overhead whenever a bit of code runs for the first time, and also it gets a bit faster as it runs
09:29:37  <andythenorth> Wolf01 that was my evil idea, it would make a horrible makefile though, and it's not actually faster in this case :P
09:29:47  <FLHerne> So, yes, creating lots of short-lived processes that import all the same code is a pretty bad idea for it
09:29:54  <andythenorth> just about the worst
09:30:18  <andythenorth> my guess is that's why the chameleon templating is slower too
09:31:01  <andythenorth> chameleon doesn't spawn processes, but it has its own template pre-compilation step that seems to interact badly with pypy
09:35:03  * andythenorth won't be investigating that one further, it's <1s to template in most cases :P 
09:41:20  * andythenorth wonders if ships should get navigation lights
09:41:30  <andythenorth> I'll forget to swap the red and green when I flip sprites :P
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09:52:05  <andythenorth> seems having just 3 ship sizes was a nice idea
09:52:06  <andythenorth>
09:52:12  <andythenorth> but 6 are better for gameplay :P
09:56:54  <andythenorth> about vehicles that process cargo as they travel?
09:57:13  <andythenorth> train collects 'unsorted mail' and delivers 'sorted mail' :P
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14:20:36  <supermop_Home> hi
14:22:08  <Yexo> Hello
14:22:17  <supermop_Home> hows it going
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14:47:38  <supermop_Home> hi andythenorth
14:53:53  <andythenorth> hi
15:09:40  <supermop_Home> i stayed up late last night looking at import Daihatsu kei trucks
15:11:55  <andythenorth>
15:12:40  <supermop_Home>
15:12:58  <supermop_Home> cheddar valley enough for 8 tiles of containers?
15:13:14  <supermop_Home> using Grids now for 6.5 and they seem fine
15:13:25  <supermop_Home> might electrify though
15:20:39  <supermop_Home> maybe it's boring if all the freight is too fast
15:29:56  <Speeder_> hello
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16:23:07  <andythenorth> new var, like 40, 41 but taking a list of IDs as a parameter?
16:23:17  * andythenorth wants to some things with MU trains
16:23:27  <andythenorth>
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17:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a way of giving a list of things as parameter
17:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can find some limited use of prop25/var42 (user bits)
17:29:21  <andythenorth> wondered about that, but there's no sensible way to recursively check a property in a consist
17:29:52  <andythenorth> list of IDs could have been in storages (limited length of list?)
17:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a callback for setting prop25?
17:30:03  <andythenorth> not afaik
17:30:06  * andythenorth looks
17:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> might be problematic
17:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> feedback loops like that are desync hazards
17:31:01  <andythenorth> looks like cb 36 can set it
17:31:08  <andythenorth> but has the warnings about loops
17:32:21  <andythenorth> action 0 prop: additional set of IDs to match in var var 40, 41
17:32:21  <andythenorth> ?
17:32:43  <andythenorth> bit crude, but might work, also static so marginally simpler?
17:32:54  <andythenorth> i.e. cacheable etc
17:33:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Single-ID prop for 'ID in prop41' ?
17:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well an idea for using prop25 would be that you group your vehicles so all bits except one are set.
17:34:18  <FLHerne> *var
17:34:26  <FLHerne> If unset, var41 matches only itself, otherwise any vehicles with the same ID set
17:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so when you OR over all vehicles in var42, if that bit is set, a "wrong" vehicle is in there
17:34:51  <andythenorth> equivalence groups FLHerne ?
17:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how you would then count those, but... details :p
17:35:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause only a small detail :)
17:35:46  <andythenorth> and it needs to count consecutively also :)
17:35:52  <andythenorth> trivial details
17:35:56  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, I think
17:36:18  <andythenorth> FLHerne so like prop 25, but useful? o_O
17:37:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not really, except mechanically?
17:38:14  <andythenorth> this idea makes me think of ducktyping for some reason
17:38:21  <andythenorth> are you a duck? 'quack'
17:38:42  <andythenorth> for the purposes of this entire train, are you a duck? 'quack'
17:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, at least, if you're sure that there is no "wrong" vehicle in the chain, you can just count the whole chain
17:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and if there is a "wrong" vehicle you can fall back to "ah well, i tried" default mode
17:40:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you can only have 8 such clusters in the whole GRF, though
17:41:48  <andythenorth> hmm
17:41:59  <andythenorth> this is the second time this var has come up :)
17:42:03  <Speeder_> I am getting really annoyed with graphviz
17:42:24  <andythenorth> first time was really fancy passenger trains, (dining cars etc), but with mixed coach IDs
17:42:39  <andythenorth> now the idea is fancy railcars, again with mixed vehicle IDs
17:42:48  <andythenorth> Speeder_ graphviz is a wild beast
17:43:05  <Speeder_> it doesn't support some really simple things
17:43:13  <Speeder_> like telling it a cluster is ALWAYS on the end
17:43:16  <andythenorth> it is both very complex, and very rudimentary
17:43:24  <Speeder_> it puts the thing everywhere it wants, except where I want.
17:43:36  <andythenorth> yes, it has no useful way to weight some nodes to one end of the graph
17:43:38  <andythenorth> or not in dot
17:44:12  <andythenorth> the design of FIRS is honestly mostly now dictated by how Graphviz renders on my mac, and whether it looks nice
17:44:24  <andythenorth> and for lolz, the linux version of dot layout renders differently :D
17:45:25  <andythenorth> hmm so where is var 40, 41 in src then?
17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:47:03  <andythenorth> can't see it in vehicle_cmd or ground_vehicle
17:48:24  <Speeder_> andythenorth, I am on windows... so I assume it looks even  weirder
17:48:33  <Speeder_> oh by the way, also it CRASHES some versions of graphviz outright
17:49:05  <Speeder_> I had to download several versions of graphviz until I found one that would not segfault when loading firs dot files
17:49:06  <Speeder_> O.o
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18:06:58  <andythenorth> hmm, cargo subtype can't persist over autoreplace
18:07:25  * andythenorth had an alternative idea about MU trains using subtypes
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18:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably in newgrf_something.cpp
18:38:02  <andythenorth> I could just search for 0x40
18:40:13  <andythenorth> NCVV_POSITION_CONSIST_LENGTH and NCVV_POSITION_SAME_ID_LENGTH look plausible
18:40:49  <andythenorth> yup cached as expected
18:41:27  <andythenorth>
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18:42:07  <andythenorth> PositionHelper() maybe
18:42:24  <andythenorth>
18:43:29  <andythenorth> so extend that to look at [something] and give it a new number
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18:48:21  <andythenorth> looking at other vars
18:49:11  <andythenorth> it could take 'number of other IDs as a parameter' and then have a defined range of temp. registers that can be stuffed with IDs (maybe up to 32?)
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19:44:30  <supermop_Home> well it didn't blow up
19:48:29  <dwfreed> yet
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20:05:17  <LordAro> seems unlikely to blow up at this point
20:08:24  <andythenorth> supermop_Home how's the game going? o_O
20:15:28  <supermop_Home> scheduling a bunch of trains to pass through a flat junction
20:16:27  <supermop_Home> upgraded to flanders and cascaded all the grids and cheddar vallies
20:20:06  <andythenorth> I think railcar trailers are off the agenda :)
20:20:41  <andythenorth> would need a newgrf spec extension; might do 25% run cost discount for all but first vehicle
20:20:54  <andythenorth> still leaves them over-powered :P
20:40:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7662: Station sets using ground tile numbers using incorrect tiles for maglev and monorail
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21:02:55  <supermop_Home> whoa
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21:03:11  <supermop_Home> you can ctrl click a vehicle to stop or start it?
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21:05:56  <FLHerne> yes
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21:16:20  <andythenorth> not as mind blowing as auto-signal though :P
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21:18:31  <supermop_Home> I've been using that for years tho
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21:41:57  <supermop_Home> 3 track termini are not actually that much more useful than 2 track
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21:43:27  <andythenorth> depends how often the junction blocks
21:43:50  <supermop_Home> also with any kind of flat station throat it seems pretty much impossible to clear it any faster than about 6 days
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21:44:51  <supermop_Home> 10 day headway seems to be the practical minimum for a regular end of line station
21:46:41  <supermop_Home> so 2 platforms works fine, have each train lay up for like 12 days, to let the following one plenty of time to clear the throat
21:46:42  <supermop_Home> and rarely does a train need more than 12 days to load
21:47:18  <Yexo> That depends on which train newgrfs you use
21:47:33  <supermop_Home> so you don't need 3 platforms for it to wait skip a slot
21:47:36  <Yexo> Also wider stations can be nice to act as a buffer in case there isn't always enough cargo to fill up trains immediately
21:48:14  <supermop_Home> Yexo ususally if i timetable trains i get rid of the full load orders
21:48:43  <Yexo> I basically never use timetables
21:48:52  <supermop_Home> if a freight train waits until the next one is in the station to load, you always get decent service
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21:52:33  <supermop_Home> 3 track station are nice if one train is hopelessly behind on schedule and needs to pass a train in front
21:59:46  <andythenorth> I tried timetabling something once
21:59:49  <andythenorth> ships
22:00:11  <andythenorth> I use that 'wait at station for n days' thing, but I never use timetables
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22:34:23  <supermop_Home> i honestly can't imaging playing the game without it
22:34:35  <supermop_Home> everything just becomes messy piles
22:42:38  <supermop_Home> i think i need to build another blast furnace
22:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i timetable every road route
22:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but interacting train routes are painful to set up right
22:48:58  <supermop_Home> hmm this train has a 'non-stop via' order, but a 'stay for 1 day' time on it
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23:25:59  <Speeder_> noone ever made "pharmeceutics" a cargo item?
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