Log for #openttd on 6th June 2020:
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00:19:08  <Speeder_> can newgrf customize what information shows up when you query an industry?
00:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it can show additional info, but not hide any
00:42:22  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, can you point me to the docs about that? I tried finding but failed
00:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> my brain wants to call it CB23 but i'm not sure if that is the correct one... something about extra newgrf text callback
00:43:25  <glx>
00:44:15  <glx> CB23 is for vehicles
00:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> right, that makes sense
00:45:41  <glx> extra_text_industry and extra_text_fund in nml
00:47:43  <glx> CB37 CB38/15C too
00:49:26  <glx> cargo_subtype_display is CB37, extra_text_industry is CB3A and extra_text_fund is CB38
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02:38:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8192: Change: Always generate API files at build time
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02:50:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8192: Change: Always generate API files at build time
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04:29:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz dismissed a review for pull request #8184: Cleanup: More code comment and doxygen fixes.
04:29:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8184: Cleanup: More code comment and doxygen fixes.
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04:36:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8184: Cleanup: More code comment and doxygen fixes.
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04:40:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
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04:50:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
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05:54:57  <andythenorth> moin
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06:47:41  <andythenorth> 28,448 checks of var 61 per vehicle -> 254 checks
06:47:49  <andythenorth> super optimised now, right? :P
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07:52:03  <Samu> hi
07:52:43  <Samu> what are these .log and .tlog files?
07:53:13  <Samu> actually, 1327 files
07:54:02  <Samu> [img][/img]
07:54:08  <Samu> can i discard them?
07:55:59  <Samu> it's everything in objs folder
07:57:57  <LordAro> yes
07:58:47  <Samu> there is no visual studio file now? i'm slightly confused
08:04:55  <Samu> rip openttd
08:05:14  <LordAro> correct, the build system has been replaced with cmake
08:05:33  <LordAro> (which will then generate the visual studio projects)
08:05:42  <LordAro> presumably you'll need to install it
08:09:11  <nielsm> if you have visual studio 2019 you don't need to install anything extra
08:09:17  <nielsm> you just use Open Folder (I think it's called)
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08:12:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8185: Cleanup: StationCargoList::AreMergable doxygen comment references Veh…
08:13:32  <Samu> ah, i see
08:14:54  <Samu> building cmake project
08:15:09  <Samu> i think i got it
08:15:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8184: Cleanup: More code comment and doxygen fixes.
08:17:25  <Samu> do i have to configure CMake? Get started with CMake, Open the CMake Settings Editor
08:19:43  <Samu> openttd is built without zlib support? hmm things are different
08:20:54  <nielsm> I remember having some trouble getting cmake and vcpkg to detect things correctly at first
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09:35:53  <andythenorth> I wish this was a newgrf lib, not a GS
09:36:11  <andythenorth> it's useless as a GS, assuming you want to use an actual GS
09:36:12  <andythenorth> which I do
09:39:22  <andythenorth> it also doesn't work :(
09:41:27  <andythenorth> well it does, but date cheat is an unfair test of it :)
09:47:43  <andythenorth> maybe I do it in newgrf
09:48:03  <andythenorth> action D read the parameters from a newgrf lib
09:51:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8185: Cleanup: StationCargoList::AreMergable doxygen comment references Veh…
10:07:37  <FLHerne> Speeder_: > any newgrf adds more landmarks?
10:08:09  <FLHerne> You mean like radio masts and lighthouses? , see count_per_map256
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10:12:15  <andythenorth> hmm
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10:12:29  * andythenorth consider removing progression from grfs
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10:26:28  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You keep saying that, it's still a bad idea :p
10:26:50  <andythenorth> hmm
10:26:56  <andythenorth> should I switch to JGRPP?
10:27:03  <andythenorth> I'd have to re-engineer FIRS
10:27:11  <andythenorth> but if JGRPP is default now...
10:27:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: see FLHerne's last
10:27:50  <andythenorth> pikka has locked progression in UKRS3
10:28:33  <FLHerne> andythenorth: (a) it isn't, (b) why does that require FIRS changes?
10:28:57  <andythenorth> daylength breaks industry production
10:29:09  <FLHerne> Oh, that
10:29:12  <andythenorth> because daylength can never work
10:29:48  <andythenorth> I think this Technology Advancement script does everything I (maybe other people too) want
10:29:49  <andythenorth>
10:29:56  <andythenorth> but it's a GS so no dice eh
10:30:27  <nielsm> assuming the "production: X units of cargo per month" means that it should produce that in a month of calendar time is misinterpreting the game mechanics
10:30:52  <nielsm> the industry production has always been producing X units per 256 ticks
10:31:05  <nielsm> regardless of the period of calendar time those ticks are presented as
10:31:12  <andythenorth> how many parameters do I need for a newgrf to scale intro dates?
10:31:18  <andythenorth> 1 for scale factor
10:31:35  <andythenorth> do I also need a start date, or can I just assume 1860, and do maths if it's a 1960 game start
10:32:13  <nielsm> a start date would be fine I think, but don't make it "real start" but rather make it a point somewhere in the middle
10:32:22  <nielsm> like "diesel transition year"
10:32:35  <nielsm> the year where diesel overtakes steam
10:32:55  <andythenorth> oddly enough, that's 1950, which is very TTD
10:32:55  <nielsm> so steam engines scale backwards from that and diesel scale forward
10:32:57  <nielsm> more or less
10:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: for as long as daylength patches have existed, there has been disagreement whether industry production should be scaled or not
10:33:25  <FLHerne> nielsm: Tell that to the developer of the current daylength patch
10:33:42  <andythenorth> Horse covers 1860-2050
10:33:48  <nielsm> my argument against scaling industry production is that it assumes the game has a scale
10:33:50  <andythenorth> call it 2060, and pin to 1960 as epoch?
10:33:57  <nielsm> because it also implies there is a natural scale to distance in the game
10:34:04  <andythenorth> I am bored of setting the date back
10:34:08  <andythenorth> I keep losing my savegames that way
10:34:24  <andythenorth> I attempt to reload newest, and it's not
10:34:43  <nielsm> the game is balanced around being able to transport X amount of cargo Y distance in tiles over T ticks
10:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the game has many scales, and if you tune one (length of a day in ticks) you have to tune others as well
10:35:00  <andythenorth> I could just be less bad at computering
10:35:01  <nielsm> if you change the amount of cargo produced per tick you break that balance
10:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and calling the game "balanced" is even more of a stretch than assuming a scale
10:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ultimately it comes down to the fact that different people want different things out of a daylength patch, and some of these things would benefit from scaling industry production, others would not
10:38:19  <andythenorth> I don't want a daylength patch
10:38:23  <andythenorth> I want to freeze time
10:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, a daylength patch which misses this switch is incomplete
10:40:26  <andythenorth> my preference is to solve this in newgrf
10:40:33  <andythenorth> ~everything is best solved in newgrf
10:40:42  <andythenorth> I just don't know what the implementation should be yet
10:40:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements
10:40:54  <nielsm> but you can't send a signal to a newgrf that you want to start or stop the pace of invention
10:41:02  <nielsm> you can only configure it before game start
10:41:15  <andythenorth> I have reload_newgrfs
10:41:25  <andythenorth> and I can change params on a running game
10:41:54  <andythenorth> I was thinking of making a utility newgrf
10:42:04  <andythenorth> which sets a couple of parameters
10:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and the way you should talk about "balance" is: a game is "balanced" if it arrives at an equilibrium, and "unbalanced" if it has exploits that scale towards infinity. it is perfectly valid for a switch like daylength or industry production to come to a different equilibrium
10:42:17  <andythenorth> or how about newgrf control of global state?
10:42:32  <andythenorth> 'advance calendar date' could be a newgrf callback
10:43:59  <andythenorth> ha
10:44:17  <andythenorth> someone had the idea of fake month names
10:44:37  <andythenorth> just specify 'how many months per calendar year' newgrf
10:44:43  <andythenorth> and set up fake names, like a town name grf
10:45:05  <andythenorth> probably works
10:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> can we just ban andy already? :p
10:47:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #8001: Ship finds path but reports it is lost
10:49:01  <andythenorth> so how do we get an outcome, not an implementation?
10:49:25  <andythenorth> the obsession with daylength confuses outcome and implementation
10:49:57  <andythenorth> I just want to tinker with a train network for 60 game years before all the trains get replaced, not 30
10:50:13  <andythenorth> seeing as I control the trains, the RVs the ships, the industries and the stations, it seems within reach
10:50:32  <andythenorth> I only don't control planes (AV9) and towns
10:53:08  <LordAro> i feel like a proper "sandbox" mode would go a long way to solve this
10:53:14  <LordAro> no money & no expiry
10:53:51  <LordAro> remap from 1950 to year 1
10:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> we need to acknowledge that the game hs many scales, and if possible identify and isolate these scales, so each one can be tweaked independently without offsetting too much of the balance
10:56:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause seems fair
10:56:17  <andythenorth> but also what LordAro said
10:56:22  <andythenorth> full sandbox
10:56:44  <andythenorth> preferably with an option for progression, but via explicit research
10:56:57  <LordAro> that's not full sandbox :p
10:57:03  <LordAro> you can't have both
10:57:06  <andythenorth> what eddi said, many scales
10:57:15  <andythenorth> tech tree is a dimension
10:57:31  <andythenorth> full sandbox is one end of the multi-dimensional matrix :P
10:57:42  <andythenorth> everything else is somewhere in the hyperspace
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12:06:36  <andythenorth> hmm
12:06:43  <andythenorth> Iron Horse tar isn't bananas compatible
12:06:49  <andythenorth> always a new bit of housekeeping :)
12:24:51  <EER> Finally got my old mac to compile OpenTTD, and it works perfectly fine (after changing some minor code to fix a compiler issue).
12:25:16  <EER> 1.10.2 however still crashes, but I just tried the latest nightly, and it appears that works fine :)
12:25:38  <EER> 20200604-master-gcdd2892c49-macosx
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12:32:12  <EER> now trying to build from branch release/1.10, if that does crash, I'm satisfied that either a code change or the buildchain change has solved it
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12:38:10  <FLHerne> Well that's weird
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12:43:01  <Timberwolf> Does NML/NewGRF have a value for "don't draw anything for this vehicle", or do I need to have a spriteset that is a 1x1 transparent sprite if I want to have a "vehicle" that doesn't have any graphics?
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12:44:28  * Timberwolf is pondering fixing some glitches with trailers being >8 units in length by adding an extra invisible articulated part on the end.
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13:19:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8192: Change: Always generate API files at build time
13:27:44  <glx> wow silly, I finally found why compile fails on linux CI
13:28:42  <glx> wrong file is included
13:29:57  <EER> is that different on CI vs local?
13:31:05  <glx> locally I'm not on linux, and I don't have SDL2 headers
13:32:14  <EER> ah, I'm using WSL but didn't have any issues compiling the current master branch
13:32:28  <glx> master builds fine
13:32:36  <glx> the issue is in my PR
13:32:43  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: You could try just not defining the graphics callback
13:32:54  <FLHerne> But you might get some default sprite, idk
13:33:14  <Timberwolf> Indeed, I got a nice SH 8P for my troubles when I tried that :)
13:33:49  <EER> Also, on mac, I have tried compiling 1.10.2 and 1.10.0, no problems starting those builds. The release build 1.10.2 did not work, but latest nightly build does, so for now I can only assume that the mac os x (<10.13) crash is resolved in the latest nightly.
13:33:56  <Timberwolf> 1x1 transparant sprite seems to work well enough, it feels a bit hacky but then I guess the whole "your vehicle is longer than 8 units" idea is a bit hacky.
13:34:25  <EER> glx: ah that explains :)
13:34:47  <glx> hmm latest nightly ?
13:35:07  <EER> 20200604-master-gcdd2892c49-macosx <- works on mac os x 10.11.6
13:36:45  <EER> I haven't tested other nightlies so far, combing through the archives was a bit much for me at this point :)
13:37:17  <andythenorth> Timberwolf transparent sprite is accepted solution
13:38:06  <andythenorth> I think if you just do 'graphics: return;' you might get the right outcome, but I don't know if it's wise
13:38:18  <Timberwolf> Cheers.
13:38:32  <andythenorth> explicit transparent sprite safest
13:39:23  <glx> EER: should work too then, but not
13:39:44  <glx> hmm or maybe not
13:39:49  <EER> glx: I'll try those and get back to you :)
13:40:37  <glx> if they both fail it will be a very useful info btw :)
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13:41:11  <EER> I was hoping I could contribute a fix, but new information is a good second ;)
13:43:15  <andythenorth> final version of code to replace var 41 :)
13:43:24  <andythenorth> called once, passing up to 16 vehicle IDs
13:43:43  <andythenorth> stores into 3 registers, which can then be used like vars elsewhere
13:44:11  <andythenorth> procedures FTW :D
13:44:20  <andythenorth> so many things now possible without destroying compile time
13:48:05  <EER> glx: both start up. I re-downloaded 1.10.2 again just to verify that I am not entirely crazy, or that something has changed on my machine allowing it to start, and that (luckily) still fails.
13:49:29  <glx> ok that's really weird
13:50:44  <EER> Are both nightly and release versions built on the same server? Perhaps it's an optimization setting?
13:51:07  <glx> it's the exact same build system
13:52:21  <EER> I'm going to try some nightlies with one week intervals, starting from april 1st as that's the release of 1.10
13:56:56  <glx> I can see 2 commits in src/os/macosx from april 10th not included in release
14:00:40  <glx> and some from april 12th and may 21 in src/video/
14:07:23  <andythenorth> is it time for next nml release?
14:07:31  <EER> I just tried a bunch of versions, interestingly: 1.10.0 works, 1.10.1 crashes. So I tried some nightlies in between, all worked: 31/03, 07/04, 08/04, 10/04, 12/04 and 26/04
14:08:26  <EER> right now I'm compiling the version that was released as 1.10.1, I doubt that will crash, but if it's something in the code rather than build environment hopefully it's reproducible
14:08:43  <glx> but 1.10.0 is supposed to fail
14:08:55  <EER> then perhaps I am having a different crash issue than the one reported
14:10:16  <EER> Stacktrace:
14:10:16  <EER>  [00] openttd              0x00000001098499c8 (SelectCompanyLiveryWindow::GroupN                                                                                                        ameSorter(Group const* const&, Group const* const&) + 68168)
14:10:37  <glx> yeah looks like the 1.10.0 crash
14:10:54  <glx> (and it's useless corrupted stack)
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14:13:42  <EER> I could attach lldb to the crashing process? I tried before but because it didn't have symbols I didn't really look into that any further.
14:16:23  <glx> I fail to see how 1.10.0 works for you while 1.10.1 fails, the changelog between 1.10.0 and 1.10.1 is so short and contains nothing related
14:19:41  <EER> Just retried, and 1.10 just works ... My only guess would be "something changed in the build environment", but even that doesn't make sense since nightlies continue to work.
14:21:40  <glx> but 1.10.0 fails on 10.2.8 and all nigthlies since #8023
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14:22:07  <EER> I am running on Mac OS 10.11.6, so that might be another difference with the reporters
14:25:26  <glx> build env changed in #8028 but nigthlies built between this change and #8023 works on 10.12.8
14:25:43  <glx> and they start to fail with #8023
14:28:42  <Speeder_> FLHerne, I meant stuff like parks, capsule hotel "office" building, etc...
14:29:32  <EER> Perhaps I have something dev-related installed that allows these versions to run?
14:31:19  <EER> my home-compiled 1.10.1 also works btw, there is one change I did, which was necessary to workaround an issue with clang:
14:31:20  <EER>
14:32:09  <EER> I really doubt that this would make the difference between a working and crashing setup, especially since the nightlies work on my mac.
14:33:52  <glx> yeah it seems specific to 10.12
15:13:05  <FLHerne> Speeder_: You can use HOUSE_FLAG_PROTECTED to prevent a building being replaced
15:14:15  <FLHerne> Speeder_: If you want to ensure there's only one, set HOUSE_FLAG_CHURCH or HOUSE_FLAG_STADIUM (only one of each can exist per town)
15:14:54  <FLHerne> Speeder_: Or set building_class and check for it in construction_check
15:15:13  <FLHerne> (or just check by id)
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15:55:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8193: Fix: MacOS bundle creation
15:55:56  <Speeder_> FLHerne, thus, I am asking if any newgrf add more landmarks like that ;)
15:56:12  <Speeder_> the "improved town layouts" one use existing ones, don't add any
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16:03:05  <FLHerne> I think it's UK Town Set that has some very nice churches
16:10:18  <FLHerne> Speeder_: These ones
16:10:33  <FLHerne> Actually, I think they might be Swedish
16:10:46  <Speeder_> those look quite good
16:17:07  <FLHerne> Agh, or are they TaI?
16:17:15  <FLHerne> Too many town grfs :p
16:18:38  <andythenorth> oh that's interesting
16:18:48  <andythenorth> nmlc with #155 fails on FIRS
16:19:41  <glx> how ?
16:19:53  <andythenorth> I'm getting a repro
16:20:31  <glx> nielsm: when you tried clang in VS did it warn a lot ?
16:20:58  <nielsm> yeah
16:21:34  <andythenorth>
16:22:05  <andythenorth> doesn't happen with nml master, just 155
16:22:32  <glx> andythenorth: you know this is almost useless without -s
16:22:59  <andythenorth> hangon I'll re-paste
16:23:50  <andythenorth> hmm it's hung when it should be printing stacktrace
16:24:19  <glx> but looking at the line I have an idea of what the error is
16:24:25  <glx> just not why
16:24:53  <andythenorth> wow I think nml has crashed my mac
16:25:03  <andythenorth> got a runaway kernel process using 1000% of CPU now
16:25:15  <andythenorth> quite rare
16:26:39  <glx> nielsm: I guess I need to build all libs with clang too
16:27:57  <andythenorth> updated
16:31:20  <nielsm> glx yeah I remember having some big issues making vcpkg use clang for build
16:31:21  <EER> glx: found the cause of the crash on my mac (but not a solution). It may or may not be the same as others have reported. When stepping through the release version with the debugger I saw that the crash is accompanied by the message "EXC_BAD_INSTRUCTION", the instruction that fails is `PINSRQ` which appears to be an SSE4 instruction and my processor does not support SSE4 yet.
16:31:55  <glx> oh
16:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so messed up SSE4 detection?
16:32:56  <glx> detection is done on build
16:33:04  <nielsm> more like the compiler might just be emitting SSE4 opcodes for float stuff
16:33:18  <EER> yeah, that explains why my own builds of the same code always work
16:34:02  <EER> and I suppose the nightly builds are not optimized so perhaps don't contain these instructions? If that's the case, then my crash is definitely not the same as the mac 10.12 users are having.
16:34:02  <glx> and detection is used only for blitters, we don't set any SSE flags for the rest of the source
16:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> then why would that be solved by upgrading to 10.13?
16:34:49  <EER> Eddi, I don't think it's the same issue. I was hoping, but it looks like my mac is just too old to have the same problem. May be something 10.12 specific
16:37:25  <glx> andythenorth: FIRS master is enough to test ?
16:37:51  <glx> well v4
16:39:58  <glx> of course deps are still broken, so manual make clean required
16:43:58  <andythenorth> glx v4
16:44:19  * andythenorth finds all the bugs :)
16:44:57  <EER> Just verified and my mac does not support an upgrade to 10.12, if it was my own mac I would happily try to upgrade anyway, but since I "borrowed" it from the office, I'd like to not accidentally brick it. So that concludes my mac saga for this week :)
16:46:02  <glx> andythenorth: crash confirmed :)
16:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: if deps are wrong, make -B :)
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16:53:08  <nielsm> glx: so should we fix things to make clang-cl compile cleanly?
16:53:48  <glx> maybe one day :)
16:54:07  <glx> but for now it doesn't even link for me ;)
16:55:11  <glx> I tried mingw64 targets too, but a fix in our cmake files is needed
16:56:09  <glx> mingw64 works fine from command line, but not from VS because some assumptions are made
16:56:26  <FLHerne> EER: It's not as if your crash *isn't* worth fixing
16:57:50  <EER> FLHerne: I agree, but it's quite certainly not the crash that other people are having :(
16:58:10  <FLHerne> Yeah :-/
17:00:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8076: Odd Cursor Glitch When Moving Through Windows and Game
17:05:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8100: Empty game runs too slow on Windows
17:05:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 closed issue #8100: Empty game runs too slow on Windows
17:06:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes opened issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac
17:09:19  <nielsm> microsoft: "fopen() is deprecated because it's unsafe, use fopen_s() instead (which is not part of any defined standard)"
17:10:42  <nielsm> also microsoft: "do not use stricmp(), it is not a function defined in any standard, instead use _stricmp() which is an allowed name for it"
17:10:46  <glx> hmm I think we silence those in stdafx
17:11:00  <nielsm> yeah for some reason when building with clang those are ignored
17:11:26  <glx> probably no MSC_VER
17:11:41  <nielsm> nope, clang-cl does defined _MSC_VER
17:11:45  <nielsm> and also __clang__
17:12:19  <glx> different pragma ?
17:12:20  <nielsm> oh, managed to shut it up
17:13:36  <nielsm> also the abort build button does not work for some reason
17:14:01  <glx> I usually use ctrl-break
17:15:34  <nielsm> yeah that does nothing
17:20:02  <glx> if I could merge #8193 before nightly it would be nice
17:21:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8193: Fix: MacOS bundle creation
17:23:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8193: Fix: MacOS bundle creation
17:27:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #8195: Fix: Silence some warnings when building with clang-cl on VS 2019
17:39:11  <nielsm> I need to update my local commit checker scripts... they complain about the exact opposite thing with preprocessor indentation
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17:43:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8195: Fix: Silence some warnings when building with clang-cl on VS 2019
17:43:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #155: Add: Support for parameters in switches
17:43:30  <glx> andythenorth: should be ok now
17:50:52  <andythenorth> glx confirmed working, thanks :D
17:51:13  <glx> was again a stupid error I made :)
17:51:27  <glx> it failed for PARENT
17:54:11  <andythenorth> happy to help test :D
17:54:26  <andythenorth> if we built grfs on github actions
17:54:39  <andythenorth> and we built nmlc on github actions (oh wait...we do)
17:54:46  <andythenorth> we could build the grfs with a build of nmlc :P
17:55:29  <andythenorth> probably need a gate so it doesn't try to build grfs with nml head that are known to fail already in nml release (due to broken grf)
18:00:17  <andythenorth> or I can just build them locally :)
18:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> if we built grfs on github actions <-- if i moved CETS to github, would you set that up? :p
18:05:21  <andythenorth> I'd try to avoid it :)
18:05:33  <andythenorth> I am quite happy just making newgrfs at the moment
18:05:47  <andythenorth> I did a lot of tooling stuff this last year or so
18:05:57  <andythenorth> also, probably better at making grfs :P
18:06:11  <andythenorth> I did set up FIRS on Azure Pipelines
18:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> build on push hasn't worked for years, in part because it failed to get eddi-nml
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18:57:53  <milek7> SDL autoconfig is broken
18:58:00  <milek7> is it known issue?
18:58:22  <nielsm> is it on the issue tracker?
18:58:29  <LordAro> i thought it was fixed
18:59:23  <milek7> -- SDL2 found -- -DWITH_SDL2 --   --
18:59:27  <milek7> /home/milek7/OpenTTD/src/os/unix/unix.cpp:28:10: fatal error: SDL.h: Nie ma takiego pliku ani katalogu
19:00:26  <LordAro> sounds like something weird with your system
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19:04:29  <milek7> $ pkg-config --cflags sdl2
19:04:29  <milek7> -I/usr/include/SDL2 -D_REENTRANT
19:04:42  <milek7> seems fine
19:04:47  <glx> that's not what use cmake
19:05:07  <glx> cmake use a cmake script provided by sdl2
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19:14:33  <milek7> target_link_libraries(openttd SDL2::SDL2)
19:14:43  <milek7> it needs that
19:15:08  <glx> target is created by the sdl2 script
19:16:16  <milek7>
19:16:59  <milek7> seems related
19:17:41  <glx> it's probably a bug in the distrib
19:18:24  <glx> because cmake uses sdl2-config.cmake generated from when sdl2 is built and installed
19:23:06  <milek7> there's no sdl2-config.cmake, but there is SDL2Targets.cmake
19:23:07  <milek7>
19:26:32  <Speeder_> al lcargos use same unit, and other units are just display effects?
19:26:51  <Speeder_> for example, 1oil in the nml code is same as 1 goods or whatever?
19:27:01  <Speeder_> but in game might show as 1000 litres, and 1 goods show as 1 ton?
19:27:29  <glx> milek7: in src/CMakeFiles.list, line 160 add "TARGET SDL2::SDL2" to link_package()
19:29:14  <milek7> it works too
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19:32:52  <nielsm> Speeder_: yes
19:33:31  <Speeder_> another question then: there are any standard for amount of cargo in a generic train wagon?
19:34:19  <nielsm> no, but there are multipliers for how refittable cargos fit in space
19:35:01  <nielsm> e.g. a wagon that can refit between wood, goods, and mail, will hold 2x as many units of goods as units of wood, because goods has a 2x multiplier
19:35:12  <nielsm> and mail iirc. has a 4x multiplier
19:36:20  <FLHerne> Speeder_: The capacities for the default vehicles are on the wiki
19:36:41  <Speeder_> and popular newgrfs are how c lose t o that?
19:37:50  <nielsm> close
19:38:31  <nielsm> most stick to having between 20 and 40 units of cargo per car
19:39:20  <nielsm> some having shorter cars (especially in earlier eras) with less capacity and bigger cars (later on) with more capacity
19:42:27  <frosch123> hmm, creating source packages takes longer than compiling :p
19:43:38  <andythenorth> what nielsm said
19:43:46  <andythenorth> 8/8 wagon is ideally 40
19:44:25  <Speeder_> what is 8/8?
19:44:42  <andythenorth> length of vehicle
19:44:52  <andythenorth> 8/8 = 32px
19:46:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8195: Fix: Silence some warnings when building with clang-cl on VS 2019
19:47:36  <FLHerne> Speeder_: Vehicle lengths are in 16ths of a tile, where the default vehicles are half a tile long
19:48:54  <Speeder_> so 8/8 is half a tile?
19:49:03  <Speeder_> thus you can fit theoretically, 80 cargo per tile?
19:49:13  <andythenorth> yes
19:49:22  <andythenorth> it's roughly what default game does
19:49:27  <Speeder_> I see
19:49:32  <Speeder_> any idea what is the most popular train size?
19:49:54  <Speeder_> I wanna figure out how many cargo you can haul, total, with the default 500 train limit, using typical sized trains.
19:50:18  <andythenorth> pure guessing, but I'd think TL5 or TL6
19:50:35  <andythenorth> spectate on the reddit servers if you want a better sample
19:50:38  <frosch123> ok, "bundle_source" is completely broken. it bundles the "build" directory
19:50:47  <frosch123> s/bundle_source/package_source/
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19:52:08  <_dp_> TL7 ofc, that's the default
19:54:05  <glx> ok an installer is generated for windows nightly, probably not a good idea
19:54:26  <FLHerne> Speeder_: If you're trying to balance stuff, I'd say that FIRS has maybe 30% more production than would be ideal for a 'realistic' game
19:54:53  <FLHerne> And the default industry production can grow to ludicrous levels
19:55:33  <Speeder_> FLHerne, thing is... how much would be ideal for a 'realistic' game?
19:55:56  <FLHerne> Well, it depends :p
19:56:14  <FLHerne> The nice thing about FIRS' supply thing is that you can decide how much you want
19:56:24  <FLHerne> But I find the base production a bit high
19:56:51  <FLHerne> I think ~100t/month total for a primary industry would be ideal for what I want to do
19:57:08  <FLHerne> Of course, everyone plays in different ways, so ymmv
20:02:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8196: Fix: Adjust .gitignore to CMake build system.
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20:33:36  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_
20:34:50  <glx> frosch123: I think I'll add more stuff to your PR if you don't mind
20:36:04  <frosch123> i am currently making "package_source" work, FYI
20:41:26  <andythenorth> this house grf is really nice,%2025-01-1973.png
20:41:44  <andythenorth> 'Improved Town Layouts'
20:42:13  <andythenorth>,%2025-01-1973%231.png
20:44:23  <supermop_Home_> hello
20:45:07  <supermop_Home_> the executive livery freight is nice
20:45:35  <andythenorth> the mountain
20:45:36  <andythenorth> the sky
20:48:28  <supermop_Home_>
20:48:35  <supermop_Home_> now this is a train
20:49:00  <andythenorth> that's wtf
20:49:23  <supermop_Home_> not familiar with the livery on the 2nd locomotive
20:49:49  <glx> hmm should we include a default CMakeSettings.json ?
20:50:11  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ 'dutch' - nominally dedicated to civil engineering trains
20:50:19  <andythenorth> supposedly on reduced maintenance
20:50:41  <andythenorth> looks quite cool on most engines, not all
20:51:01  <andythenorth> train collecting obsession continues, this just arrived:
20:51:34  <supermop_Home_> i'd like to get something N scale large logo
20:51:43  <supermop_Home_> never got super into 37s
20:51:54  <supermop_Home_> but i do find them very british looking
20:52:18  <andythenorth> also this, so crisp
20:52:27  <supermop_Home_> to my mind i always think of large logo on 47s
20:52:39  <andythenorth> I am trying to limit purchases
20:52:43  <andythenorth> due to space in my house :P
20:53:00  <supermop_Home_> i had that problem with sneakers a couple months ago
20:53:11  <supermop_Home_> danger of wife getting a job at nike
20:53:55  <andythenorth> oof, I have a pre-montreal waffle obsession
20:53:58  <andythenorth> so many colourways
20:54:54  <supermop_Home_> the incongruity of the 'old fashioned' nose of a 37 etc with the supergraphic boldness of Large Logo is a nice wabi-sabi
20:55:18  <andythenorth> the black roof is best
20:55:25  <andythenorth> and the split box front
20:55:40  <supermop_Home_> well now that everyone is getting into 90s air maxes suddenly its like a new colorway ever fortnight that feels needed
20:56:39  <supermop_Home_> i could go for some large logo Cortezs
20:56:44  <andythenorth> I have stopped buying trainers as I have stopped wearing shoes :P
20:56:58  <supermop_Home_> i was a bit slow on that andy
20:57:12  <supermop_Home_> the first month of lockdown i still bought a couple
20:57:41  <supermop_Home_> then had to come to terms with the fact that i am not wearing any
20:58:09  <supermop_Home_> and not wearing any out as i no longer spend the weekends walking 8-12 miles around the island
20:58:25  <andythenorth> I am not making scenic model railways (it's an oval on bare wood)
20:58:31  <andythenorth> but if I did, I'd make this
20:58:46  <supermop_Home_> maybe railfreight Air Max 90s
20:59:13  <supermop_Home_> i don't have room for an oval
20:59:37  <supermop_Home_> i just have two tracks and some switches, about 4 feet long at my parents
20:59:45  <andythenorth> railfreight trainers
20:59:49  <andythenorth> the crossover needs to happen
20:59:58  <andythenorth> meanwhile, these clouds
21:00:12  <supermop_Home_> with a 225, 158, and 08 on them
21:00:41  <supermop_Home_> here i could manage maybe a platform or fiddle yard on one vitsoe shelf at most
21:00:49  <supermop_Home_> 91 cm
21:02:02  <supermop_Home_> maybe a pair of GNER AM97s
21:06:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's nice compared to the base game, but all a bit bland
21:06:53  <FLHerne> Pikka's TaI is much nicer :-)
21:07:12  <andythenorth> I like the monotony of the suburbs :)
21:07:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Also, TaI proves that you *can* control town growth rate/style in NewGRF :-)
21:07:42  <andythenorth> I do normally use TaI
21:07:55  <FLHerne> Even if it's in a rather roundabout way
21:08:02  <supermop_Home_> i do like improved town layouts
21:08:04  <andythenorth> well that's the question eh :P
21:08:18  <andythenorth> do I change FIRS to include a house set
21:08:23  <andythenorth> _probably_ not
21:08:31  <FLHerne> No, FIRS is way too big already
21:08:53  <FLHerne> TBH, I'd seriously suggest distributing FIRS as separate grfs
21:08:59  <FLHerne> per economy
21:09:01  <andythenorth> nah, that's just confusing
21:09:10  <andythenorth> I've considered it, but it wins nothing
21:09:13  <nielsm> no seriously do that
21:09:13  <FLHerne> My suspicion is that a *lot* of the player base don't know about parameters
21:09:33  <nielsm> you will make the compiled GRF simpler and the user interface simpler
21:09:41  <andythenorth> it would be trivial to compile 5 grfs
21:09:44  <andythenorth> or whatever
21:09:44  <nielsm> and possibly win performance by being able to simplify the callbacks
21:09:54  <FLHerne> Also, you could have 'FIRS Core' and then sector-specific addons like ECS, and I really like that model
21:10:05  <andythenorth> I'd just write the same grf 5 times, with a hard-coded economy parameter
21:10:30  <FLHerne> In theory, nmlc should be able to optimize that out
21:10:31  <andythenorth> there's no other benefit to splitting them, they're not recombinable
21:10:35  <FLHerne> (it can't yet)
21:10:57  <andythenorth> when originally developed 'not being confusing separate grfs' was a much requested FIRS attribute
21:11:13  <andythenorth> I'm potato / potato about it currently
21:11:37  <FLHerne> Hm, and I /still/ need to bake a cake before tomorrow :-/
21:11:41  <andythenorth> more likely is splitting up Horse when I do a US version
21:11:48  <andythenorth> Horse is still so sloooooow to compile
21:11:50  * FLHerne should stop procrastinating, and find a whisk :p
21:12:37  <andythenorth> maybe I should redesign FIRS
21:12:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8196: Fix: Adjust .gitignore to CMake build system.
21:12:52  <andythenorth> the 'deliver cargos to towns' thing really doesn't work at all
21:13:19  <FLHerne> I don't think it really needs to, it's just a nice sink
21:13:19  <Timberwolf> A full rebuild of Road Vehicles and HD when I've changed something in the renderer and thus 0 sprites are cached again...
21:13:22  <andythenorth> and the only effect it could have is growing popn.
21:13:28  <andythenorth> and growing popn. is undesirable
21:13:30  <Timberwolf> That ends up being a "walk away, come back later" job.
21:13:38  <supermop_Home_> has anyone tried to make enamel pins of railfreight sector logos?
21:13:45  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ probably exist
21:13:51  <andythenorth> Timberwolf how long does it take to compile?
21:14:11  <supermop_Home_> i need a boonie or bucket hat, maybe with a nice logo on it
21:14:12  <Timberwolf> On the desktop it's a few minutes, on my old laptop it gets closer to 20.
21:14:15  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: Hm, does your version of nmlc have the C lz77 module functioning?
21:14:24  <Timberwolf> Most of the time is rebuilding the sprite cache.
21:14:25  <FLHerne> The sprite encoder shouldn't be *that* slow
21:14:30  <andythenorth> is it also rendering + compositing the sprites from CGI?
21:14:43  <Timberwolf> Not sure, I have the all-in-one Windows download.
21:14:49  <Timberwolf> That's just the NML times.
21:14:52  <andythenorth> oof
21:15:01  <andythenorth> it's 32bpp extra zoom?
21:15:10  <Timberwolf> GoRender is pretty fast, although I added a bunch of higher-quality options to slow it down again.
21:15:20  <FLHerne> Hm, I committed a patch that would tell you, but it's not in a released version yet...
21:15:24  <Timberwolf> Yeah, the regular one isn't too bad (2x only), HD has the 4x sprites.
21:15:47  <andythenorth> I found that using multi-processing really does make a difference with PIL graphics processing
21:15:57  <andythenorth> generally, processing sprites is very parellelisable
21:16:01  <andythenorth> but nmlc can't do that
21:16:13  <Timberwolf> I don't think I'll do anything else at 4x, the difference using base game graphics is just too much at maximum zoom.
21:16:20  <supermop_Home_> incessant helicopter noise
21:16:26  <andythenorth> Trump!
21:17:45  <Timberwolf> Also when I first did 4x I hadn't figured out a lot of things about a voxel-based workflow, so I was losing a lot of detail at 2x there was no technical reason I couldn't have.
21:18:03  <glx> Timberwolf: what says "nmlc --version" ?
21:18:53  <Timberwolf> 0.5.2 \n Library versions encountered: \n PIL: 7.1.2 \n PLY: 3.11
21:20:17  <glx> ah right the native or not status is not shown in 0.5.2
21:20:31  <FLHerne> Yeah, we need to do 0.5.3 soonish :p
21:21:01  <glx> it should at least include #156
21:21:19  <glx> #155 can wait more testing/breaking by andy
21:22:03  <andythenorth> I'm all out of cases
21:22:08  <andythenorth> but we should ship what we have
21:22:28  <Timberwolf> I think a lot is the fault of the laptop, it desperately needs either an SSD or replacing.
21:22:35  <FLHerne> I feel like perhaps we should make a stable 0.5.x branch before merging the various feature/mass-code-shuffle patches
21:22:38  <andythenorth> we won't find some bugs unless we push releases
21:22:51  <FLHerne> btw I'm sorry I've not looked at 155/6 yet, busy :-/
21:22:59  <andythenorth> does pypi have any convention of rc releases?
21:23:14  <glx> #156 is a fix, #155 is a feature
21:23:33  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
21:24:12  <glx> no need to make a branch
21:24:30  <andythenorth> I'm probably the only newgrf author who's checking out PRs to test things
21:24:31  <glx> I think a branch is needed when compatibility is broken
21:24:45  <andythenorth> we need more exposure :)
21:25:38  <glx> anyway there's already a major change ready to ship, the 0.4 compatibility :)
21:25:52  <FLHerne> Eh, that's basically a fix :p
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21:33:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8197: Fix: CPack source package creation
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22:18:55  <glx> oh I just noticed "new" vcpkg triplets (added 4 months ago) x86-windows-static-md and x64-windows-static-md
22:19:24  <glx> I should try them and see if we can remove the /MD to /MT "hack"
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22:47:13  * andythenorth should go to sleep
22:47:18  <andythenorth> this game is fun though
22:47:25  <andythenorth> but wife wakes up about 5am or 6am
22:47:26  <andythenorth> so eh
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