Log for #openttd on 11th June 2020:
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01:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system
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03:03:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry
03:22:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
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06:24:14  <arikover> moin
06:26:53  <supermop_Home> yo
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06:50:28  <andythenorth> o/
06:59:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
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08:05:39  <Timberwolf> That industry terraforming cost thing could get a bit interesting if you take method:prospecting into account.
08:25:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system
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08:55:47  <andythenorth> oof
08:56:02  <andythenorth> Horse needs *even more* box van wagons
08:56:08  <andythenorth> Steeltown has lots of cargos for them
08:56:19  <andythenorth> I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo
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09:40:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
09:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wasteful
09:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> one wagon to rule them all
09:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause> everything is containers
09:43:49  <andythenorth> I've already provided that option :P
09:47:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
09:57:59  <Timberwolf> At some point I need to move Road Vehicles to using sprite composition so I can handle all these cargos without lumping everyone with a 200MB grf download.
10:06:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
10:23:54  <arikover> andythenorth: "Horse needs *even more* box van wagons" "I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo" <-- You mean specific box vans for specific Steeltown cargos? Would they look totally different depending on the cargo?
10:24:08  <andythenorth> no
10:24:13  <andythenorth> I tried that, it's weird :)
10:24:49  <andythenorth> more like vs
10:26:13  <arikover> Are there other van types besides "normal box" and "sliding wall"?
10:26:42  <andythenorth> there's a curtain side
10:27:03  <andythenorth> there's also 'roof + sides slide'
10:27:17  <andythenorth>
10:27:24  <andythenorth> I didn't do roof + sides slide
10:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> historically, there's different liveries for company-owned wagons
10:27:36  <andythenorth> yes
10:27:47  <andythenorth> so one option is just a colour variant
10:28:11  <andythenorth> vs
10:28:16  <andythenorth> as example
10:31:17  <FLHerne> arikover: There are vans where the body slides longitudinally on springs
10:31:29  <FLHerne> To reduce impact forces when shunting
10:31:39  <FLHerne> for fragile cargos
10:31:47  <FLHerne> And banana vans, with steam heating
10:32:10  <andythenorth> could do shockvans
10:32:18  <FLHerne> And of course now there are refrigerated vans
10:32:18  <andythenorth> also sliding roof + doors
10:32:24  <andythenorth> fridge is in
10:32:27  <Eddi|zuHause> a predecessor for modern refrigerated cars were "fish wagons" which had an ice storage
10:32:43  <andythenorth> also 'holdall'
10:33:22  <FLHerne> And conflats, which look like old vans but are really containers on flat wagons
10:33:24  <FLHerne>
10:34:18  <andythenorth> conflats could be done as earlier gen intermodal
10:34:27  <andythenorth> currently it makes some fixed assumptions about ISO containers
10:34:32  <andythenorth> but that could be changed
10:36:31  <andythenorth> also the current vans switch from 33% width doors to 100% width doors
10:36:40  <andythenorth> but that could be split into two tech tree branches
10:38:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system
10:40:28  * andythenorth could graft on horse forever
10:45:18  <arikover> Woa. So many vans.
10:45:22  <andythenorth> auto-parts wagon?
10:45:25  <arikover> andythenorth: So would they be random variations of the same vehicle (ID), or totally different vehicles?
10:45:31  <andythenorth> different ID
10:45:39  <andythenorth> random is 1CC / 2CC already
10:46:04  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You could just make them more random :p
10:46:28  <andythenorth> the implementation is less interesting than figuring out what changes in the sprite :)
10:46:29  <arikover> I like random.
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11:03:28  <andythenorth> need more steel wagons too
11:04:06  <andythenorth> there are 7 iron / steel cargos in Steeltown
11:04:50  <FLHerne> Well, there's no shortage of those
11:06:06  <andythenorth>
11:06:42  <andythenorth> currently there's a plate wagon, a flat wagon, and a coil carrier
11:09:53  <andythenorth> oh there's the torpedo car also
11:19:40  <andythenorth> maybe wire rod wagon
11:41:55  <andythenorth> maybe I should finish FIRS 4 and leave Horse alone :P
11:42:03  <andythenorth> or Unsinkable Sam
11:42:07  <andythenorth> or CHIPS
11:42:20  <andythenorth> or I could do NRT Road Hog
11:45:50  <FLHerne> Finally ordered a new computer
11:46:24  <FLHerne> Now I'll have fewer excuses to feel unproductive :-/
11:47:16  <andythenorth> one excuse is always enough
11:47:54  <FLHerne> Yeah, but "my laptop is slower than a dead snail" is a pretty good excuse
11:48:13  <FLHerne> It's 10x slower than whatever your FIRS build-time numbers are from
11:49:15  <FLHerne> Building Qt is a "leave it overnight" job, which makes it very easy not to bother upgrading my apps :p
11:49:44  <arikover> andythenorth: Maybe you could make a poll on the forums "What should I do next? 1.FIRS4 2.UnsinkableSam 3.CHIPS 4. NRT RoadHog"
11:50:43  <andythenorth> my new laptop is slower than my old one :P
11:50:48  <andythenorth> for certain limited cases
11:53:52  <arikover> A propos ordering new computers: does anyone here know a good place to order computer with Linux-Compatible hardware?
11:55:29  <frosch123> desktop or notebook?
11:56:15  <arikover> desktop (and maybe notebook)
11:57:06  <frosch123> <- i never go around to order there, but they have favourable reviews on heise and stuff
11:57:24  <frosch123> they run their own debian or ubuntu derivate
11:58:49  <frosch123>
12:01:21  <arikover> thank you!
12:02:00  <andythenorth> eh I could split up flat and bolster wagon
12:02:02  <andythenorth> hmm
12:16:39  <FLHerne> arikover: I just bought a lot of bits to put together, which is probably the cheapest option
12:16:56  <FLHerne> For somewhat high-end computers, anyway
12:42:51  <andythenorth> how much are computers now?
12:43:42  <FLHerne> Well, it depends :p
12:44:20  <andythenorth> mine is about £2/day
12:44:39  <FLHerne> A Pi 4 is a perfectly adequate desktop, and that's maybe £60 with a case and charger
12:44:49  <FLHerne> I just spent about £750 on parts for mine
12:44:50  <andythenorth> it's not bad when compared to e.g. Photoshop, which is £0.50/day
12:45:00  <FLHerne> Which I expect to last probably five years or so
12:45:10  <andythenorth> how much did you sell the old parts for?
12:45:59  <FLHerne> Thoroughly obsolete, so they'll stay on the shelf in case I need them
12:46:12  <FLHerne> I might have got £50 or something
12:46:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: i arrived at something like 0.40€/day
12:47:22  <andythenorth> we value computers in interesting ways
12:47:27  <frosch123> mainboard, cpu, ram are approaching 10 years
12:47:45  <andythenorth> I use mine for ~16 hours/day almost every day
12:48:16  <frosch123> oh, i also got lucky with the displays
12:48:18  <andythenorth> I have a transit van that will cost me £2500 / year just on purchase price, excluding tax, insurance, diesel
12:48:27  <frosch123> others broke way earlier
12:48:29  <andythenorth> the van is used average 2 hours most weeks
12:49:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: how much on coffee? :p
12:49:05  <andythenorth> just diesel costs almost as much as the computer :P
12:49:14  <andythenorth> coffee, £0.35 per pod, 5-6 pods a day
12:49:15  <FLHerne> That sounds like hiring a van might be easier
12:49:26  <FLHerne> *cheaper
12:49:34  <andythenorth> hiring is all good until you have a sick kid etc
12:49:54  <andythenorth> I didn't own a proper vehicle until I was 40 years old
12:51:45  <supermop_Home> andythenorth ditch the pods? coffee $ can go pretty far on even very fancy coffee
12:52:12  <andythenorth> when I buy ground coffee in bags, I use too much
12:52:22  <supermop_Home> buy whole beans!
12:52:23  <andythenorth> even with a small cafetiere
12:52:26  <supermop_Home> also a scale
12:52:53  <supermop_Home> acaia one has served me well over 5 years, no issues
12:53:09  <andythenorth> there was a lifecycle analysis of coffee pods vs grounds
12:53:26  <andythenorth> if the pods are actually recycled, they're the most ethical solution currently
12:53:45  <andythenorth> you can get precise dose beans machines though
12:53:49  <andythenorth> we have one at work
12:54:22  <supermop_Home> i feel like that assumes the user is using their beans in a deliberatelt imprecise manner?
12:54:51  <andythenorth> most of us do
12:54:57  <andythenorth> precise dose beans machines ftw
12:55:07  <andythenorth> the one at work annoys me though
12:55:22  <supermop_Home> also the benefit of ground a few seconds before brewing does make a big difference vs ground a few months before
12:55:25  <andythenorth> whenever I want to use it, it's either out of water, beans, or it's full, or it's got a temporary fault
12:56:32  <supermop_Home> electric pour-over kettle, decent grinder, and a scale is probably cheaper and less bulky than that machine?
12:57:03  <andythenorth> all of that at 7am
12:57:07  <andythenorth> I could not do :)
12:57:28  <andythenorth> also, being candid about it, I can afford the pods :P
12:58:22  * Timberwolf goes for the hand grinder and Moka Express option.
12:58:39  <frosch123> i have hand grinder and french press
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12:59:18  <supermop_Home> i used hario hand grinder whole time i was in australia
12:59:22  <frosch123> so many methods of brewing coffee
12:59:24  <Timberwolf> I like using coffee making as an enforced break of 5 minutes, though, especially being wfh.
13:00:22  <supermop_Home> because at that time i felt there was no adequate affordable electric burr grinder, and i didn't want to pay for a 220v/50hz electric that i knew i would only use for a couple years
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13:01:25  <supermop_Home> the Bodum burr grinder was cheap enough ( and stylish enough) in the US to overlook its shortcomings, but in autralia it's real cost was almost double
13:02:21  <supermop_Home> when my US bodum grinder broke, i bought a Baratza Encore and it has been amazing
13:02:58  * andythenorth has pony wishes
13:03:18  <supermop_Home> well exceeded expectations for price and service, so much that i wish i'd bought the more expensive model as i know it'd be money well spent
13:03:22  <andythenorth> 1. hp / ton calculation displayed for vehicles (preferably based on capacity, not current load)
13:03:49  <andythenorth> 2. pop-open extended info window for vehicles (1 simple text region fed by a text cb)
13:04:13  <supermop_Home> andythenorth my pony wish is a Mahlkonig EK43 (short) and a LaMarzocco GS3 or Linea Mini
13:05:01  <andythenorth> coffee newgrf
13:06:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: if the unit wouldn't be so silly, i would prefer a "time till max speed on flat track at full load" stat in vehicle details
13:06:35  <frosch123> but "5 days" sounds so stupid :p
13:07:19  <Timberwolf> I had a hire car from a garage once where that would have sounded about right.
13:07:54  <andythenorth> frosch123 acceleration time
13:08:06  <andythenorth> it's exactly equivalent to 0-60mph figure used to sell cars
13:08:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- games used to have that kind of chart
13:08:31  <andythenorth> yes
13:08:38  <andythenorth> the best ones, you could change the gear ratios
13:08:40  <supermop_Home> frosch123 we could just name that as a new unit that means (openTTD units speed / openTTD Days)
13:08:53  <arikover> andythenorth: I also liked RRTy2's table MaxSpeed(NrOfCars,Grade)
13:09:13  <supermop_Home> "this train has 43 kiloFrosches"
13:09:16  <andythenorth> so real life railways have 2 metrics afaict
13:09:46  <andythenorth> drag freight has 'ruling grade', i.e what's the steepest grade this train will actually keep moving over
13:10:00  <andythenorth> but usually seems to be expressed as HP/ton, and there is a required HP/ton for any route
13:10:25  <andythenorth> the other key metric seems to be around how fast a train will regain line speed after stopping
13:10:35  <andythenorth> this is important for pax trains with frequent stops
13:11:24  <andythenorth> we don't can't probably shouldn't simulate the second metric
13:11:41  <andythenorth> acceleration rate requires some value for torque, which we don't have in the physics
13:12:41  <andythenorth> the gameplay benefit is negligible, but in theory high-speed trains often accelerate relatively slowly compared to e.g. commuter trains
13:18:34  <supermop_Home> it certainly shows up in game at times, as i find one ends up having to make absurd tight headways on commuter/local lines often
13:19:07  <supermop_Home> in that case its more about 'how fast can this 5 tile train clear this 5 tile station'
13:21:38  <supermop_Home> if the dwell time is 4-6 days (frequent with horse) and the headway 10 days (also often needed to keep up with demand) there is a real risk that many trains will just barely clear that bit of station when the next arrives
13:22:14  <supermop_Home> and 10 days is not even particularly frequent...
13:30:27  <andythenorth> I work around it by making the EMUs relatively high powered
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13:39:14  <supermop_Home> yeah - i use mus for most everything
13:39:26  <supermop_Home> though so do train operators
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13:44:06  <supermop_Home> belts as tramway?
13:44:12  <supermop_Home> belts as pipe?
13:51:27  <andythenorth> belts as belts? :P
13:51:36  <andythenorth> I have low confidence that we could introduce a new transport type :D
13:52:21  <andythenorth> although it would be the most lolz change we could make to ottd now
13:53:26  <supermop_Home> especially as it mostly just replicates the effect of a large station spread
13:53:47  <glx> andythenorth: belts as a road type ;)
13:54:12  <supermop_Home> with the one unique use of 'gradually distribute a large bulk delivery overtime'
13:54:24  <supermop_Home> basically doing the work of an industry for it
13:55:42  <supermop_Home> the other prototypical case of get this raw material from the its awkward location down to the port /station isn't really a proble
13:55:58  <supermop_Home> but i still dream of log flumes
13:57:42  <supermop_Home> "New Log Available"
13:58:07  <supermop_Home> "Would you like a year's exclusive use of this log to test it?"
13:58:53  <_dp_> rvs are kind of filling the role of super close range transportation atm, and sometimes ships
13:59:04  <_dp_> belts mb a nice alternative I guess if done right
13:59:33  <nielsm> belts and pipes are basically the same too
13:59:54  <_dp_> nielsm, not if we're talking realism
14:00:21  <supermop_Home> _dp_ there are only a few areas that _need_ belts/pipes, but i think they are attractive as an 'eyecandy that actually has a purpose'
14:01:04  <_dp_> supermop_Home, yeah, just carefult not to make "eyecandy that breaks the game"
14:01:18  <supermop_Home> nielsm i could see a belt as a 'pipetype'
14:02:55  <nielsm> also powerlines
14:03:05  <nielsm> "continuous delivery mode"
14:04:25  <_dp_> it's all nice but how about fixing ships first :p
14:04:27  <supermop_Home> something that has a high per tile cost to build and maintain,
14:04:47  <supermop_Home> but very cheap vehicles
14:05:14  <supermop_Home> _dp_ what is wrong with ships?
14:05:23  <_dp_> they're lost?
14:05:35  <supermop_Home> use bouys?
14:07:09  <supermop_Home> ships with multiple holds would be nice
14:09:08  <_dp_> bouys aren't exactly a good solution for
14:10:18  <nielsm> and it seems YAPF for ships still has some kind of distance limit where it will just go in a straight line towards toe destination, and eventually find itself continually bumping into a corner
14:15:12  <milek7> powerlines/pipe shouldn't have 'vehicles' at all
14:16:55  <supermop_Home> indeed
14:17:12  <_dp_> cargopackets moving by themselves? xD
14:17:51  <supermop_Home> though i'm not sure what powerlines would do
14:18:01  <_dp_> also would probably go well with adding routes to ui instead of shared orders
14:20:32  <supermop_Home> power boosting production or town growth could just be a 'is there an active powerplant within x tiles" or even just 'does the map produce enough power globally'?
14:20:35  <milek7> it should probably build 'network map', and distribute production immediately
14:22:01  <supermop_Home> not entirely convinced that building powerlines makes sense for a transport game, or even that it is fun....
14:22:28  <andythenorth> the unit transport type would move cargo from tile to tile at a rate
14:22:30  <_dp_> it would be a curious addition if electric engines actually consumed energy
14:22:48  <nielsm> powerlines should perhaps be something that exists and you need to build around
14:22:50  <supermop_Home> it might be interesting to be similar to transmitters
14:22:59  <nielsm> (indestructible like transmitters and lighthouses)
14:23:02  <andythenorth> is it like the rivers I always demolish?
14:23:08  <andythenorth> 'indestructible' :D
14:23:15  <andythenorth> these days I always play with magic bulldozer
14:23:21  <andythenorth> sandbox mode: True
14:23:30  <supermop_Home> yeah - as objects or a 'field' for power plants / substations
14:23:55  <milek7> do these ideas slowly turning into simcity? ;d
14:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have a rejection reason "this is not sim city"
14:25:43  <supermop_Home> _dp_ what if vehicles have fuel cost, as a portion of the running costs
14:25:47  <Timberwolf> Powerlines, belts, "biter attack" disaster type... :p
14:26:28  <_dp_> supermop_Home, you mean supplying fuel removes that cost?
14:26:36  <supermop_Home> and over time the 'fuel cost' variable changes differently for steam/diesel/electric
14:27:15  <supermop_Home> and perhaps is further changed by some commodity pricing
14:27:24  <_dp_> supermop_Home, you need an economy for that to work :p
14:28:20  <supermop_Home> _dp_ it could be pretty simple, just "is there an active powerplant?"
14:28:33  <nielsm> just a static/randomized curve of fuel prices for the game
14:28:45  <_dp_> currently running costs don't do anything good imo
14:28:49  <supermop_Home> nielsm yeah
14:29:01  <_dp_> either you play for money and they're irrelevant or you play for fun and they kill you
14:29:48  <supermop_Home> just something like what is cheap in 1890 is expensive in 1980 and vis versa
14:31:05  <supermop_Home> and there is a little bonus if power plants are productive -
14:31:33  <supermop_Home> so that for some games it will make sense to electrify, and for some it will not
14:33:56  <andythenorth> +1 on running costs
14:34:07  <andythenorth> consistently they've had to come down in my vehicle grfs
14:34:29  <andythenorth> the lolz is that FIRS has had to widely space cargo payment rates
14:34:35  <andythenorth> so some Horse trains now make insane profit
14:35:36  <nielsm> also variable cargo payment rates?
14:36:03  <andythenorth> that would be a thing
14:36:03  <nielsm> for those it might actually make sense to tie it to total amount transported in the game
14:36:03  <andythenorth> then there could be a supply and demand economy
14:36:03  <_dp_> imo economy in openttd is so broken that I'd rather see more stuff to be removed from it than added
14:36:09  <_dp_> like signal maintenance cost
14:36:11  <_dp_> and inflation
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14:37:37  <andythenorth> there are multiple ways this can all be done
14:37:37  <andythenorth> but it's all blocked by GS
14:37:37  <andythenorth> GS makes it all impossible
14:37:37  <andythenorth> oh I said I'd get kicked if I complained about GS again :)
14:37:37  <nielsm> also to encourage players to spread across multiple cargo types
14:37:46  <andythenorth> oops
14:37:46  <andythenorth> _dp_ can complain about it instead
14:37:46  <andythenorth> maybe I can do it in newgrf already
14:37:46  <andythenorth> _dp_ +1
14:37:56  <andythenorth> all this dumb 'balancing' crap
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14:38:03  <andythenorth> as though it could ever be balanced
14:38:28  <andythenorth> hmm where's the newgrf cb for custom cargo payment
14:39:00  <andythenorth> this is under-used :D
14:39:57  <andythenorth> wonder what else it has in scope
14:40:16  <andythenorth> I wanted to store a price factor in every tile, or station, or town
14:40:37  <andythenorth> I also wanted the grfid and vehicle ID that the cargo was unloaded from
14:42:34  * andythenorth DOES NOT NEED TO DO THIS AT ALL :)
14:42:40  <andythenorth> back to FIRS :P
14:44:44  <_dp_> it can be balanced but for each game mode separately, so totally shouldn't be a core game goal imo
14:45:59  <_dp_> my wishes for core game are 1) stability 2) better ui 3) configurability 4) extensibility xD
14:48:30  <_dp_> eh, could've changed 2) to usability for full-bility combo xD
14:51:42  <andythenorth> my goal is another level of timetabling
14:51:47  <andythenorth> and conditional orders
14:51:59  <andythenorth> maybe programmable signals that refit the trains passing by
14:55:19  <nielsm> multiomodal transport where you move entire containers of stuff
14:55:38  <nielsm> and can follow the same container with same design on a ship, train, and truck
14:56:17  <nielsm> prereq: cargodest
14:57:58  <andythenorth> vehicles-in-vehicles
14:58:03  <andythenorth> peter started a patch for it
14:58:16  <andythenorth> also provides ferries
14:58:17  <nielsm> car ferries!
14:58:19  <nielsm> train ferries!
14:58:19  <andythenorth> can never work :)
14:59:12  <_dp_> zombies! :p
15:03:08  <arikover> Voxel Tycoon has belts:
15:04:44  <nielsm> yeah and simutrans has power lines
15:04:59  <arikover> _dp_: I remember I watched an online OTTD-Game with a "zombie apocalypse" GS running. Really funny!
15:05:00  <nielsm> and both of those are different, but inspired-by games
15:12:17  <supermop_Home> nielsm how about i can follow a pallet from container to container and a box from pallet to pallet
15:12:34  <nielsm> now you're thinking with crates!
15:12:59  <arikover> That's called UPS.
15:13:00  <nielsm> move ur cargo while u move ur cargo
15:13:17  <supermop_Home> put coal in cardboard box -> fedex box to power plant
15:19:53  <arikover> Topic micromanagement: how about train shunting? This fork was funny:
15:20:10  <arikover> Well, a bit too complicated.
15:20:30  <_dp_> arikover, yeah, and I was the one who made it ;)
15:21:12  <arikover> The zombie GS?
15:21:22  <_dp_> wasn't gs but yes
15:21:37  <arikover> Really? What was it then?
15:21:44  <arikover> AI?
15:21:47  <_dp_> server patch
15:22:22  <supermop_Home> shunting was fun
15:22:42  <supermop_Home> certainly made your capacity way lower
15:22:47  <arikover> _dp_: It was really epic!
15:22:57  <supermop_Home> and encouraged you to just use MUs all the time
15:23:32  <supermop_Home> and it was too easy to leave wagons or trains with locomotive at wrong end stranded
15:23:52  <supermop_Home> and the only way to rescue them was to crash a train into them
15:24:48  <milek7> they couldn't drive backwards?
15:24:52  <arikover> supermop_Home: and setting the orders was really boring.
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15:25:32  <supermop_Home> milek7 they could, but you could get them stuck in weird ways
15:25:41  <arikover> milek7: yes they could. It was a nice feature. In fact, this feature alone was nice.
15:27:52  <supermop_Home> if a train was leading with a wagon forward and you broke up the train, it was possible to end up with the wagon with no HP as the 'train', and the locomotive as just abandoned wagons with no number or ordersen
15:28:23  <supermop_Home> then the 'train' could never move, nor could another train come to couple to it
15:29:39  <supermop_Home> as arikover says, one of the nicest features was simply running a push-pull train
15:29:58  <arikover> with NARS 2.5 <3
15:30:37  <nielsm> just having reversible trains would be nice
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15:32:39  <arikover> Trains running in reverse were limited in speed (60km/h iirc).
15:33:37  <nielsm> give caboose cars a function (allows a shunting engineer to ride on the back at increased speeds, to instruct the loco driver)
15:34:01  <supermop_Home> the shunting patch worked great for push-pull, and for things like drop off wagons at a mine, run around and pick up some already full cars
15:34:36  <supermop_Home> nielsm you could do that, so song as the caboose, driving van, etc was coded as a locomotive
15:36:00  <supermop_Home> so trains with driving van or rear loco can reverse and proceed at full speed, but a train without has to take the time to move locomotive to the other end of the train
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15:36:32  <supermop_Home> so you had to allow space for head -shunts and sidings at your stations
15:36:39  <supermop_Home> it was very fun to watch
15:38:37  <supermop_Home> but i found i often ended up just building balloon loops or top-and-tailing all my freights to save time and/or space
15:39:33  <arikover> and the order management was really complicated.
15:41:02  <supermop_Home> due to tt's weird scale its actually much more spatially efficient to build a loop for a ro-ro station than the sidings (with junctions and signals) for a simple end of line shunting set-up
15:41:15  <nielsm> the transport model of transport tycoon is totally broken compared to reality and trying to impose shunting on it just causes it to make even less sense
15:41:36  <supermop_Home> indeed - it was just nice to watch the trains moving back and forth
15:42:02  <nielsm> yeah, a station manager simulator/puzzle can be fun
15:42:11  <nielsm> (I just did a bunch of shunting jobs in derail valley myself)
15:42:22  <nielsm> but it's a different game
15:42:43  <nielsm> as is the logistics of making sure the right empty cars are at the right station at the right time
15:43:21  <supermop_Home> also in openttd the relative cost of a locomotive is low compared to tracks, wagons, and the cost of time
15:43:31  <nielsm> I'm sure zachtronics could make a programming game out of it :)
15:44:45  <arikover> supermop_Home: unless you use the daylength patch.
15:45:44  <nielsm> but really, I think 95% of the fun could be had in ottd with two features: trains that can run in reverse, if they have a compatible cab at the back end. and an option to disable magical reversing.
15:46:16  <supermop_Home> nielsm yes, that  fun gem in the patch
15:46:20  <nielsm> and maybe add large depots as a feature, which could double as magical shunting yards
15:46:26  <supermop_Home> and that part worked well
15:47:06  <supermop_Home> really it should have been split out as a separate patch to start with
15:47:23  <arikover> "Train can drive in reverse at low speed unless there is a proper driving cab" and "reversing at stations is possible but takes more time"
15:48:10  <supermop_Home> yes, a time penalty to magic reverse is probably a good idea, incase a single ended train gets lost and stuck at some dead end
15:48:37  <nielsm> hmm, have stations where every second platform is replaced with a shunting track, you would never see anything actually running on those but it would speed up moving the loco to the other end for trains stopped in adjacent tracks
15:49:35  <arikover> supermop_Home: and it rewards the player that uses driving cabs
15:49:43  <supermop_Home> the other thing that the patch wasn't ever able to accomplish was splitting up EMUs at a station
15:49:50  <andythenorth> but not the player that uses railcar trailers :P
15:49:55  <andythenorth> oof
15:49:58  <andythenorth> Horse rekt
15:50:01  * andythenorth deletes it
15:50:16  <supermop_Home> andythenorth just keep the trailers in the middle of consist
15:50:25  <supermop_Home> imagine that they don't have cabs
15:50:34  <arikover> except if railcar trailers can have properties "isDrivingCab: True"
15:50:36  <andythenorth> such lollogians
15:50:38  <supermop_Home> A car vs B car on a subway train
15:51:26  <nielsm> arikover: actually should have flags for "cab at first end, cab at second end"
15:52:25  <supermop_Home> the EMU thing cant really be solved by the patch's approach to shunting - the left behind unit were essentially 'birthed' as a new train with no orders, and no history
15:53:02  <andythenorth> hmm
15:53:08  * andythenorth must design some wagons then
15:53:15  <supermop_Home> rather the patch would have needed 'consists', which can have orders, and which can join together into one train
15:54:09  <supermop_Home> lots of rabbit holes to get lost in - which is why separating out the 'train drives in reverse' part as a separate patch might be more helpful
15:54:28  <arikover> an eyecandy way to make "mine shunting" would be to make the engine invisible while loading.
15:54:41  <supermop_Home> that is easier to define the goals of, and to plan for what siuations might arise
15:55:46  <arikover> ...and the when loading is complete *poof* the engine pops up. Meh.
15:56:36  <nielsm> yeah first thing would be to look at how actual production timetables (?) are made
15:57:12  <nielsm> it takes a bit getting used to, but SimSig can (obviously) do all the shunting stuff with splitting and merging trains, and having trains with and without power
15:57:30  <nielsm> it's just an entirely different thing too
16:05:02  <andythenorth> auto-parts wagon?
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16:33:42  <supermop_Home> no Z scale Narita Express that i can fine
16:33:50  <supermop_Home> find
16:34:36  <supermop_Home> i wonder.. how insane would trying to be a Z scale monorail be...
16:34:42  <supermop_Home> gah
16:34:44  <supermop_Home> build
16:35:04  <supermop_Home> being a z scale monorail probably would be more insane
16:38:08  <supermop_Home> i imagine you'd essentially put a T scale engine inside the bodyshell
16:49:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option
16:51:50  <andythenorth> oh
16:52:04  <andythenorth> what if *all* construction costs included the cost of clearing the land :P
16:59:17  <nielsm> actually, stuff like farmland, rough land, ...
16:59:31  <nielsm> or maybe just make the cost of clearing grass zero
17:00:36  <Speeder_> is it possible using GS to define production of a single industry?
17:00:52  <Speeder_> for example define that a certain industry should have 10x or 100x default production
17:06:01  <_dp_> Speeder_, no
17:11:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs
17:14:19  <andythenorth> Speeder_ top tip, if you're question starts 'it is possible using GS..."
17:14:30  <andythenorth> and the end is "[anything to do with newgrf]"
17:14:31  <andythenorth> then no
17:15:26  <frosch123> Speeder_: gs are mostly about adding some type of scoring. little about changing the mechanics
17:15:46  <andythenorth> they can't change the game economy
17:16:23  <_dp_> in a hacky way they can
17:16:52  <andythenorth> eh? :)
17:16:53  <_dp_> like there is shared road payment gs that works sometimes
17:16:58  <andythenorth> can't change cargo payment
17:17:02  <andythenorth> can't change industry production
17:17:13  <andythenorth> can't reliably build types of industry
17:17:16  <andythenorth> can't close industry
17:17:23  <milek7> you could calculate cargo payment yourself and extra money to the player, no? :D
17:17:24  <andythenorth> can't control town growth
17:17:28  <_dp_> can close (dynamite)
17:17:28  <andythenorth> can't build houses
17:17:41  <andythenorth> ha is there a magic bulldozer option? :D
17:17:43  <_dp_> can build houses, just not in exact location :p
17:17:44  <milek7> s/extra/pay extra/
17:17:50  <andythenorth> can't control cdist
17:18:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, since recently deity can destroy industries
17:18:07  <andythenorth> awesome :)
17:18:10  <andythenorth> that's lolz
17:19:37  <andythenorth> I'm kinda just complaining for effect
17:19:56  <andythenorth> TL;DR GS is great for Silicon Valley or NCG or town growth scripts
17:20:17  <andythenorth> if I could actually write GS I'd like it more
17:21:34  <andythenorth> I do have like 25 commits on Busy Bee GS
17:21:53  <andythenorth> but most of those were followed by something like "Fix: (andy broke stuff) - Alberth"
17:25:40  <andythenorth> I would like to fork Silicon Valley though :P
17:27:21  <andythenorth> hmm can GS enumerate the active newgrfs?
17:27:22  * andythenorth looks
17:27:43  <andythenorth> nope
17:27:58  <andythenorth> could I use a non-buildable industry as a key?
17:28:25  <andythenorth> 16 in, 16 out cargos, I could encode that 'this is FIRS, version x.y.z, economy foo'
17:29:21  <andythenorth> maybe just the available industry types is enough of a unique fingerprint?
17:30:47  <_dp_> it usually uses cargo labels
17:31:14  <_dp_> and wasn't it like a design decision to hide newgrf info?
17:31:21  <_dp_> a stupid one if you ask me though
17:31:40  <andythenorth> I don't think there were any design decisions for GS?
17:32:01  <andythenorth> as I understand it, it was just an extension of NoAI?
17:32:16  <_dp_> well, design stars alignment :p
17:32:42  <andythenorth> if it had waited to figure out newgrf compatibility it would never be done
17:32:53  <andythenorth> as nobody here has ever proposed any workable solution to that
17:32:56  <andythenorth> :)
17:34:05  <andythenorth> what shall I call my GS?
17:34:26  <andythenorth> should it be one GS per FIRS economy, or just one GS, and some auto-detection crap?
17:34:57  <frosch123> you also have parameters
17:35:08  <andythenorth> yes
17:35:17  <andythenorth> I think the most important thing is to have a GS name
17:35:19  <frosch123> and i am sure you would use the same firs templating
17:35:25  <andythenorth> then figure out what it actually should do
17:35:35  <andythenorth> Busier Bee?
17:35:38  <andythenorth> Silicon Alley?
17:35:44  <andythenorth> NoCatGoal?
17:35:55  <frosch123> iron goal
17:36:08  <andythenorth> Industry Hog
17:36:28  <frosch123> better gs
17:36:32  <_dp_> if it's for firs it should probably iclude "firs" in name :p
17:36:40  <andythenorth> I considered that
17:36:47  <andythenorth> but it makes FIRS problem even worse
17:36:48  <frosch123> andy's FIRSt gs
17:37:05  <andythenorth> already there are forums and redditors who get FIRS docks or FIRS vehicles or FIRS objects grfs
17:37:11  <andythenorth> reasonable mistake to make
17:37:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: we should rebrand "newgrf" to "firs"
17:37:34  <andythenorth> super!
17:37:57  <andythenorth> FIRS Unsinkable Iron Hog Bee Valley
17:38:05  <andythenorth> ok what should it do?
17:38:40  <frosch123> teach the player how to play firs correctly
17:38:46  <_dp_> FIRS galore
17:38:53  <frosch123> i am sure there is only one way to play it correctly
17:39:08  <andythenorth> apparently you have to setup precise timetables
17:39:15  <andythenorth> so FIRS can only be played with JGR
17:39:21  <andythenorth> otherwise industries don't produce anything
17:39:38  <andythenorth> anyway, if I stop being a FIRS Steeltown, I want to get a little medal for supplying Builders Yard and Vehicle Distributor industries with cargo
17:39:54  <andythenorth> maybe to about 5 of each, depending on map size
17:40:04  <andythenorth> ideally they'd be in the 5 largest towns on the map
17:40:13  <andythenorth> ideally the GS would ensure they exist
17:40:57  <andythenorth> unfortunately, for lolz the Builders Yard requires 4 different cargos :|
17:41:03  <andythenorth> which is horrible to put in a goal string
17:41:56  <andythenorth> "Supply at least 200t each of Cement, Pipe, Rebar, and Steel Sections to each builders yard in Fishytown, Dingville, Hillbottom, Spilsgate and Tinkletown"
17:42:23  <andythenorth> somewhat, it would be nice if an industry could indicate a satisfaction level, -16..16
17:42:47  <andythenorth> so GS can ignore internal details of industries
17:43:10  <andythenorth> but then again, then it can't show the required amounts in the goal
17:43:43  <andythenorth> other economies would have different kinds of goal
17:43:51  <andythenorth> but in all cases, I want a little medal :P
17:49:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace.
17:57:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace.
18:02:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, are you trying to discourage ppl from posting silly bugs by replying with silly comments? :p
18:04:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace.
18:19:34  <andythenorth> not in that case
18:19:40  <andythenorth> although I wouldn't rule it out in future
18:20:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace.
18:22:29  <_dp_> btw, it may be worth to only show thoose income/cost things in full details as I have a suspicion they add significant render time in some cases
18:23:31  <_dp_> mb just income and transfer though
18:23:51  <andythenorth> I swear I can correlate them with fps drops
18:24:10  <andythenorth> I used to have the identical issue in flash games
18:24:22  <andythenorth> rendering moving fonts over moving backgrounds seemed to suck
18:25:54  <_dp_> may not even be as much font rendering as background redraw
18:29:59  <_dp_> train heads redraw a lot in general for some reason
19:03:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option
19:21:26  <glx> ok let's see how to use GNUInstallDirs cmake module
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22:10:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz opened pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
22:13:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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22:20:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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22:26:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
22:28:36  <FLHerne> nielsm: Is that a desired outcome of the commit checker?
22:28:41  <FLHerne> It seems weird to me
22:29:04  <nielsm> yes it's intentional it accepts that syntax and not the other
22:29:38  <nielsm> previously the commit checker actually required preprocessor commands to be indented before the # instead of after the #
22:29:56  <nielsm> but I think the standard actually requires # to be in the first column, or something like that
22:36:59  <FLHerne> nielsm: That only seems to be the case for pre-ANSI C
22:37:20  <FLHerne> Given that OTTD depends on C++11, isn't that a non-issue?
22:40:01  <nielsm> maybe?
22:40:51  <nielsm>
22:41:34  <nielsm> it's late, gn
22:42:27  <FLHerne> goodnight
22:44:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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22:54:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
23:06:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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23:17:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
23:30:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
23:42:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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