Log for #openttd on 15th June 2020:
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07:10:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8220: Add: A video driver that shows what areas of the screen are dirty.
07:10:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz closed pull request #8220: Add: A video driver that shows what areas of the screen are dirty.
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07:41:58  <Samu> hi
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11:52:33  <andythenorth> yo
11:53:00  <andythenorth> nice
12:01:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
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12:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> we need a selective load/unload specific cargos transport-fever-style
12:07:30  <andythenorth> or JGR
12:07:41  <andythenorth> the JGR implementation has known issues, but the concept is there
12:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically every feature in patchpacks, ever
12:08:07  <andythenorth> +1
12:08:13  <b_jonas> I got confused because when I built a square-fenced girder concrete railway bridge the bridge type selection claimed a high max speed but the query tool then said speed limit 160 km/h, but it turns out that normal railway tracks also have speed limit 160 km/h, possibly because of this train newgrf.
12:08:17  <andythenorth> if 'refit to fixed cargo' could take a list
12:08:24  <andythenorth> then that would be a viable solution
12:08:35  <andythenorth> 'refit to any of these cargos: [list]'
12:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: there is track newgrfs, which can set speed limits
12:08:44  <andythenorth> other options may exist
12:10:02  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: that still wouldn't really let you do shot two-way feeder services transfer the same cargo in the right direction (valuables or passengers), right?
12:10:18  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but this speed limit is fine, it will match the non-electric trains
12:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: cargodist covers transfres
12:11:35  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, how does that work? I might want to set up a short valuables feeder truck because in one of my towns the bank is in an awkward place, and valuables are low enough volume that it might be worth
12:12:22  <b_jonas> not that it's too important, I have to figure out how to make a decent network or loop for passengers and oils on this map first
12:12:54  <b_jonas> I might try to eventually make a big one-way loop all around the continent
12:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you go into settings, and set the matching cargo to be either "symmetric" or "asymmetric" instead of "manual"
12:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and then give all the vehicles normal orders (instead of transfer)
12:14:25  <b_jonas> counterclockwise, feeding the oil from the south to the oil refinery on the east, and the oil from the east and north to the oil refinery on the west, so the oil tankers and goods vans don't run empty as much and I still get long transportation
12:14:50  <b_jonas> and transfer passengers and mail among at least three of the four major cities at the same time
12:15:11  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I'll look at that, thanks
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12:17:08  <b_jonas> I should set up some temporary service for the refinery in the west though, to avoid it closing. I could pay for a new one, but it'd be nicer not to have to.
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12:19:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
12:23:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
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12:33:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
12:35:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
12:40:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter
12:43:34  * andythenorth considers un-grouping Supplies cargos
12:44:03  <andythenorth> i.e. instead of Engineering Supplies: Explosives, Pipe, Parts, Vehicles, Tools, etc
12:44:14  <andythenorth> I think it would be bad though, game is a game, needs game mechanics
12:49:42  <FLHerne> In a way it would be easier to manage
12:50:36  <FLHerne> More cargos means fewer accepting industries per cargo, which makes keeping cdist in line simpler
13:05:00  <supermop_Home> andythenorth i'm sure it'll be fun either way
13:07:50  <andythenorth> it means more routes into industries
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13:11:24  <_dp_> so, is it a hunt season for globals?
13:11:31  <_dp_> I know one to remove as well xD
13:16:27  <LordAro> _dp_: it's always hunt season for globaLS
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13:31:50  <FLHerne> andythenorth_: How many supply variants would one industry require?
13:32:02  <FLHerne> And would it need all of them for maximum production, or any-of?
13:37:12  <andythenorth_> [unknown]
13:37:23  <andythenorth_> workers to industries might be a more interesting mechanic
13:37:23  <supermop_Home> any two?
13:37:34  <andythenorth_> it would probably work exactly like ports
13:37:42  <andythenorth_> supply n tonnes per 90 days
13:37:44  <andythenorth_> of any cargo
13:37:51  <andythenorth_> but ports are really hard to explain
13:38:52  <supermop_Home> workers are kind of weird
13:39:40  <FLHerne> I think workers for production would just be annoying
13:40:00  <supermop_Home> espescially if an industry is right near a town
13:40:13  <FLHerne> It would be nice if most industries produced and accepted a smallish number of passengers, just for 'realism'
13:40:23  <supermop_Home> like they can walk their own damn selves to work
13:40:32  <andythenorth_> I was thinking of measuring distance to town
13:40:36  <andythenorth_> but again, hard to explain
13:40:47  <supermop_Home> i think that's ok
13:41:49  <supermop_Home> when i play steeltown, i always end up with one quadrant with essentially no towns, and some tertiary or secondary industries in the middle of nowhere
13:42:51  <FLHerne> That's one thing that really bugs me in OTTD
13:43:11  <FLHerne> Both towns and industries are placed pretty much randomly
13:43:20  <supermop_Home> like this foundry is some kind of mountaintop hermitage...
13:43:24  <FLHerne> "why did anyone want a town on top of an isolated mountain"?
13:44:33  <FLHerne> "why is there a factory deep in the woods with no roads leading to it?"
13:44:35  <FLHerne> Yeah, that
13:44:37  <supermop_Home> lets build our blast furnace where it is hardest to get our rawmaterial delivered, and far from any market for our product or workforce
13:46:08  <andythenorth_> I have many thoughts on that
13:46:13  <andythenorth_> I could do things about it
13:46:20  * andythenorth_ currently in a whereby call
13:46:26  <andythenorth_> like Zoom, but without the hassle
13:46:42  <supermop_Home> im in bluejeans
13:47:01  <supermop_Home> watching the bastardization of pieces i designed
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13:52:31  <supermop_Home> "can you guys see my screen now?"
13:52:38  <supermop_Home> "how about now?"
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13:54:13  <supermop_Home> after 30 seconds of presenting.... "hey, we aren't seeing anything on our end"
14:05:37  <andythenorth_> so Steeltown does somewhat try to locate certain industries
14:05:43  <andythenorth_> but it has to be really careful about it
14:06:21  <andythenorth_> constraints risk growing at something like x^n or other maths
14:06:28  <andythenorth_> and rapidly become unsatisfiable
14:06:40  <andythenorth_> also dependency loops emerge which cannot be met
14:07:07  <andythenorth_> there are solutions to this, which would involve providing weights on the map, then locating industries in a defined order
14:07:19  <andythenorth_> e.g. 'iron ore mine regions, coal mine regions'
14:07:35  <andythenorth_> then blast furnaces would locate near those according to a heuristic
14:07:46  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause can probably explain it all better :P
14:08:03  <andythenorth_> mostly though I just play a 256x512 map and play in half of it
14:08:06  <andythenorth_> usually works
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15:51:13  <b_jonas> time to dismantle my old coal trains, because they're in the way of real profitable lines
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17:36:43  <Wolf01> andythenorth_: new lego train
17:47:18  <andythenorth_> oh you beat me :P
17:47:21  <andythenorth_> I was going to tell you
17:47:26  <andythenorth_>
17:50:00  <frosch123> shouldn't it be green?
17:53:17  <andythenorth_> is that "Improved Engine Green"?
17:57:10  <glx> I only know the green one
17:58:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8223:  Fix violation of strict weak ordering in engine and group name sorters
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18:07:59  <andythenorth_> Improved Engine Green
18:08:05  <andythenorth_>
18:16:01  <frosch123> i see
18:35:32  <b_jonas> time to electrify all my railway tracks (I should have done that long ago)
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18:37:08  <b_jonas> good thing OpenTTD lets me do that even on tracks that have a train
18:38:34  <b_jonas> and with one drag-drop for the whole map too
18:39:37  <b_jonas> now I just have to determine which electric locomotive I want to buy
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19:30:29  <FLHerne> Is it documented anywhere in NML what the extra parameters to string() do?
19:31:32  <FLHerne> Or even what string() itself does...
19:32:24  <glx> not really
19:32:28  <FLHerne> string() isn't included in either "Elementary expressions" or "Builtin functions"
19:32:50  <FLHerne> And I can't find any examples of using it with more parameters than the string name
19:33:10  <FLHerne> Or an explicit description of what it does even with just a name, although that's pretty obvious
19:33:14  <glx> I think Eddi|zuHause has some
19:33:27  <frosch123> FLHerne: i think whenever we tried, it was weird
19:33:43  <frosch123> apparently nml can concat strings at compile time
19:34:25  <frosch123> real parameters would be more useful, but iirc they did not work right
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19:35:18  <FLHerne> So, what do they actually do?
19:35:29  <FLHerne> Documenting the weirdness would be better than undocumented weirdness
19:35:47  <frosch123> you know the string-commands, like {NUM} and {WEIGHT}?
19:35:54  <FLHerne> Yes
19:36:32  <frosch123> well, nml inserts them, esp. compile-time constants
19:36:36  <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ patch to make one of the green CC yellow?
19:36:40  <frosch123> it's unclear how much really works
19:37:50  <FLHerne> frosch123: I don't really understand what you mean by that
19:38:11  <FLHerne> Inserts what?
19:38:47  <frosch123> string("foo {NUM} bar", 10) = string("foo 10 bar")
19:39:08  <FLHerne> Hm, ok
19:39:19  <FLHerne> And if it's not constant?
19:39:38  <FLHerne> Does it push values onto the stack?
19:39:56  <frosch123> it should, but iirc it was buggy
19:40:01  <frosch123> or we did not understand it :)
19:40:26  <frosch123> i always reverted to manual pushing
19:40:55  <frosch123> string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN),string(STR_STATION_KILNS)) <- in FIRS you find stuff like that
19:41:07  <frosch123> which is concatenation at compile-time
19:42:02  <frosch123> no idea why FIRS does it like that
19:42:31  <frosch123> there is certainly room for exploration what nml really does :)
19:45:35  <frosch123> FLHerne:
19:46:37  <frosch123> sounds like only constants were implemented
19:49:10  <supermop_Home> Harrogate's changed a bit in the last 20 years it looks
19:51:00  <supermop_Home> street view won't let me go into the bus lot
19:59:56  <argoneus> hi uh
20:00:02  <argoneus> is there any sort of city builder grf that works with firs?
20:00:08  <argoneus> to have to deliver cargos to towns for them to grow
20:00:17  <supermop_Home> most GS will work with it
20:00:29  <argoneus> don't those just use vanilla cargos
20:00:30  <glx> and GS are not grf ;)
20:00:58  <supermop_Home> argoneus no, most can recognize firs cargoes - FIRs is older than GS
20:01:08  <argoneus> oh
20:01:42  <supermop_Home> if a version of the GS is a bit older than the version of firs you use there may be a few odd results,
20:01:43  <glx> GS have less issues than AI with non vanilla cargos and vehicles
20:02:19  <supermop_Home> but generally GS have no problem basing growth off firs cargo
20:02:25  <argoneus> i wish the content downloader told you which date they were released on
20:02:29  <argoneus> and not version: 117
20:02:30  <glx> well the main issues for AIs is the weird construct rules of some vehicle sets
20:02:31  <argoneus> like what is this
20:03:25  <supermop_Home> for some firs economies, a GS might make some choices you wouldn't about what cargoes are important -
20:03:58  <supermop_Home> like, why does my city care how many engineering supplies are delivered? the city isn't a mine
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20:12:07  <argoneus> tfw
20:12:12  <argoneus> downloaded a random gamescript and it crashed
20:18:24  <supermop_Home> appears 5 2 track lines, and 1 3 track line all converge on Leeds from the West, but leaving to the east the throat is like immediately down to a single 2 track line
20:19:37  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: It's mostly a terminus
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20:20:03  <supermop_Home> i don't remember it being so lopsided when i lived there
20:20:19  <supermop_Home> ooh i found a depot where HSTs sleep
20:20:45  <supermop_Home> with a turntable!
20:20:55  <FLHerne> If anything, it used to be more lopsided
20:21:15  <supermop_Home> looks to be a few pacers here too
20:21:37  <supermop_Home> "Neville Hill Depot"
20:22:04  <FLHerne> Before 2002 there were even fewer through platforms
20:22:38  <supermop_Home> all the (disused) junctions and flyovers to the west are just look like something from locomotion, and the east side is like as simple as can be
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20:23:11  <FLHerne> And until the 80s (IIRC?) there were another pair of lines to the west
20:23:25  <FLHerne> On the viaduct that's now disused
20:23:40  <supermop_Home> trying to trace the scars of old lifted lines in the general Harrogate area
20:23:46  <supermop_Home> in google earth
20:24:36  <supermop_Home> i see the pillow factory at pannal is gone...
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20:24:54  <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ what economy do pillow factories go in?
20:25:40  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: is good
20:26:11  <supermop_Home> whoa there is a Coors brewery in Tadcaster? who in Yorkshire is drinking coors?
20:27:00  <supermop_Home> not even in the same conglomerate as sam smiths... doesn't make any sense to be there
20:31:46  <supermop_Home> is this a snowplow?
20:33:55  <FLHerne> No
20:35:30  <supermop_Home> ok
20:35:38  <FLHerne> It's
20:35:55  <FLHerne> (you can see those two big roof vents)
20:43:14  <andythenorth_> oh frosch went :P
20:43:41  <andythenorth_> I have no idea how nml strings work either
20:43:52  <andythenorth_> the FIRS ones were inherited, I didn't write nml FIRS
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21:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> Does it push values onto the stack? <-- no, you have to do that manually
21:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and that part is not pretty
21:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i have an example somewhere
21:01:38  <supermop_Home> andy i randomly found the fanhouse from some flickr album you shared the other week
21:02:04  <supermop_Home>
21:02:09  <supermop_Home> shrug
21:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne:
21:04:10  <supermop_Home> nearby is that potash mine... and people are reviewing the mine on google maps?
21:04:41  <FLHerne> "good mine. lots of potash here."
21:04:43  <supermop_Home> like, lets buy potash from here is has 3.8 stars on google?
21:04:47  <FLHerne> 4 stars
21:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: so it doesn't actually work like a stack, but you have to write to registers 0x100 through 0x105 (i think), most parameters consume 16 bit, so you have to bitstuff two of them into one register
21:05:33  <supermop_Home> FLHerne the one 1-star rating didn't leave a review, so no idea what his complaint was
21:06:28  <supermop_Home> new FIRS mechanic: social media rating of industries
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21:12:47  <supermop_Home> bunch of parked oil rigs at redcar
21:13:26  <supermop_Home> looks like they scrap them there
21:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> why do i know the name "redcar"?
21:17:37  <supermop_Home> from google maps it looks like the whole rustbelt compressed into one English town?
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21:33:23  <FLHerne> The steelworks closed a few years ago
21:33:37  <FLHerne> Maybe that's the authentic rust belt experience
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21:41:14  <b_jonas> nice, openttd even lets me replace a bridge live under a train
21:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't always allow that
21:43:21  <b_jonas> yes, ottd interface has improved a lot
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21:47:13  <andythenorth_> supermop_Home I did actually propose industry rating :P
21:47:19  <andythenorth_> of a sort :P
22:01:40  <supermop_Home> ooh i found an old roundhouse on the german - Danish border
22:02:14  <supermop_Home> i am so bored i am taking a rail trip from north England to Norway in google maps
22:02:25  <andythenorth_> ha
22:02:26  <andythenorth_> nice
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22:17:36  <supermop_Home> "Most of the intermediate stations on the line were closed to passengers in September 1930 as the number of excursion and holiday trains going straight through to Scarborough during that period meant that the line was too busy to accommodate local services.
22:18:38  <supermop_Home> what could go wrong? surely people vacationing in Scarborough is a revenue stream that we can rely on forever at the expense of regular passenger service...
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22:23:30  <FLHerne> Well, it was
22:23:47  <FLHerne> Until cheap air travel, which was another 50 years or so
22:23:53  <supermop_Home> surely not all year long?
22:24:41  <supermop_Home> also by the 50s at least some of those people must have been able to just drive from York?
22:25:33  <supermop_Home> its just weird to see a passenger line converted to a holiday line, instead of the other way around
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22:27:00  <supermop_Home> the subway network in Brooklyn is laid out the way it is as nearly all of the lines started out as competing vacation railways to the beach in the mid 19th century
22:27:47  <supermop_Home> that were later converted to elevated as commuter volumes from the outer parts of the borough grew
22:28:03  <supermop_Home> and then finally tied into the subway system
22:48:31  <supermop_Home> hmm according to ebay my old class 08 is worth like 0
22:48:48  <supermop_Home> arguable more as i never ran mine
23:11:40  <b_jonas> I spent some time debugging my railway network because some trains were getting lost. There were a few misidrected signals as I suspected, plus sometimes trains took the wrong route because they wanted to go to a nearby depot for servicing and the nearest one wasn't on the path they should have taken
23:15:38  <supermop_Home> i recommend turning off breakdowns / depot service
23:16:03  <supermop_Home> if you play with any sort or complex network it seriously reduces fun
23:21:04  <FLHerne> ditto
23:22:31  <b_jonas> I'll consider it for the next game
23:23:13  <supermop_Home> you may still want some strategically placed depots for replacing / upgrading trains at the end of their life
23:23:32  <supermop_Home> i usually put them near a terminal station
23:23:52  <b_jonas> sure
23:25:26  <b_jonas> my main problem is that the main line (and some of the sidelines) has two parallel lines in each direction, and if one of them has a misbuild, it's hard to find out, the trains will just go to the other lin
23:27:36  <supermop_Home> hmm
23:29:22  <supermop_Home> the chou line took from 1889 to 1908 to get from Shinjuku to Tokyo, but only from 1889 to 1911 to get from Shinjuku to Nagoya
23:31:50  <supermop_Home> actually it didn't even get to the main Tokyo station til 1919
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