Log for #openttd on 21st June 2020:
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06:14:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar
06:15:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar
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06:39:56  <andythenorth> o/
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07:20:14  <nielsm> hm, that long post written on AIs yesterday makes me think, maybe it would be okay to add a setting to (individual) AI players to allow them to cheat
07:21:44  <nielsm> e.g. so those decoration road vehicles ones can just give themselves money, or allow an AI to get around local authority restrictions
07:22:17  <nielsm> allow AI authors to use the classic "can't make it smart so just give it an unfair advantage" trick
07:22:57  <andythenorth> maybe :)
07:23:09  <andythenorth> aren't they supposed to write a GS for decoration vehicles?
07:23:28  <nielsm> yeah that's been my argument previously too
07:23:32  <nielsm> "but I want to use another GS as well!"
07:23:51  <andythenorth> [repeat for every 'but use GS' case]
07:24:18  <LordAro> nielsm: wasn't "the original AI cheats" a huge reason for getting rid of it in the first place?
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07:24:30  <LordAro> personally i don't really think the decoration AIs should exist
07:24:51  <LordAro> (i've not seen the post)
07:25:05  <nielsm>
07:25:27  <andythenorth> maybe we should give AIs access to the GS API?
07:25:32  <andythenorth> then they could cheat as deity
07:25:38  <andythenorth> and do GS things
07:25:58  <nielsm> I'd want the player to give permission to an AI to cheat
07:26:09  <nielsm> i.e. a checkbox next to the starting date offset setting
07:26:30  <andythenorth> potato / potato for me
07:26:39  <andythenorth> I think the interesting thing is giving them unlimited powers
07:27:00  <LordAro> hmm
07:27:21  <LordAro> good thoughts in that post
07:27:37  <LordAro> i'd be perfectly happy with bundling an AI (SimpleAI?) with OTTD though
07:28:16  <nielsm> two challenges with bundling an AI: suddenly it's our job to maintain it
07:28:22  <andythenorth> failure demand
07:28:28  <nielsm> and someone will definitely come screaming "unfair competition"
07:28:41  <LordAro> sure, but in a way that's easier to do when it's bundled
07:28:49  <LordAro> there's plenty of AIs on bananas that just don't work
07:29:06  <andythenorth> so we've got some kind of curated list?
07:29:15  <LordAro> even AroAI has still has a potential crash if you have the right set of GRFs, iirc :)
07:30:22  <LordAro> nielsm: SimpleAI is the only AI i'm aware of that doesn't just go "all out" when trying to build stuff
07:30:23  <nielsm> it should perhaps also be easier to make an AI not crash, somehow
07:30:30  <LordAro> and it mimics the original
07:30:59  <LordAro> automatically restart the AI (as if reloading the game) on crash, perhaps?
07:31:09  <andythenorth> also, co-operative multi-tasking for GS? o_O
07:31:12  <LordAro> things would no doubt get stuck in a loop though
07:31:13  <andythenorth> 1980s comes to say hi
07:32:24  <andythenorth> what is the actual blocker to running n GS in one game?
07:32:52  <nielsm> just implementing it I think
07:33:14  <LordAro> also all existing GSes would fall apart if there were competing ones?
07:33:22  <LordAro> i don't see the benefit?
07:33:27  <nielsm> though the GS API allows lots of things that make me nervous of the question "but what if two scripts tried doing this at the same time?"
07:33:48  <andythenorth> well they wouldn't
07:33:55  <andythenorth> they would have an execution order
07:33:57  <andythenorth> :P
07:34:00  <nielsm> "almost at the same time"
07:34:02  <andythenorth> 'solved'
07:34:23  <andythenorth> what if 2 newgrfs both provide cargos?
07:34:29  <andythenorth> that tends to break
07:34:31  <LordAro> what would be the benefit of having 2 GS at once?
07:34:34  <nielsm> there may be some problems with goals and storybook
07:34:51  <andythenorth> LordAro because the content API evolution is pretty much dead now
07:35:06  <andythenorth> ~everything is diverted to 'do it in GS'
07:35:07  <LordAro> (i also ask what the benefit of having 2 (separate) industry GRFs at once is, tbh)
07:35:09  <andythenorth> but GS is useless
07:35:20  <andythenorth> daylength -> 'fixed in GS'
07:35:25  <andythenorth> economy -> 'fixed in GS'
07:35:33  <nielsm> the issue is players/server admins that want feature X from one GS and feature Y from another GS, and don't have the programming skills to manually smash them together
07:35:33  <andythenorth> town growth -> 'fixed in GS'
07:35:48  <andythenorth> but when I proposed merging all the GS I got told that's stupid
07:35:56  <LordAro> i'm not sure anyone has claimed that daylength is fixed by GS
07:36:12  <andythenorth> there's a GS now that does most of what most daylength users want
07:36:26  <andythenorth> spec was extended recently for it
07:37:00  <andythenorth> but if we gave AIs access to GS API, problem automatically solved?
07:37:23  * andythenorth must eat breakfast :D
07:37:29  <LordAro> that's a rather large oversimplification
07:37:40  <andythenorth> they're the easiest to pick holes in :)
07:37:52  <LordAro> well we already give "AIs" access to the GS API
07:37:59  <LordAro> we call them GameScripts
07:38:27  <LordAro> if you want multiple things to have access to GS API, say that
07:38:34  <LordAro> conflating the two just confuses things
07:39:56  <andythenorth> yes :)
07:40:31  <LordAro> exposing the GS API to the admin port might make things a bit more interesting
07:40:39  <LordAro> no idea how that would work though
07:40:45  <andythenorth> the question 'how could the AI be allowed to cheat' is also really interesting
07:41:02  <LordAro> my answer to that is a flat "no", tbh
07:41:24  <andythenorth> well that shortens the discussion at least
07:41:42  <LordAro> AIs do not get access to anything that (noncheating) human players do
07:41:57  <andythenorth> so....GS servers, via admin port? o_O
07:42:04  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
07:42:13  <LordAro> people have always complained that the adminport is too limited
07:42:28  <andythenorth> it's a radical proposal
07:42:30  <LordAro> i'm not actually sure what it does, tbh
07:42:50  <andythenorth> me neither
07:43:46  <andythenorth> so our imagination won't be limited by reality :P
07:43:51  <LordAro> :D
07:43:52  <nielsm> you can get some basic statistics on the game, and send/receive small json(-ish?) datasets to the running GS
07:44:01  <nielsm> and do rcon
07:44:09  <nielsm> from what I've gathered
07:44:22  <nielsm> but yes "what can adminport do?" is one of those things where the documentation is terrible
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07:44:55  <nielsm> the docs on the wiki basically says "you can send packets to the admin port!"
07:45:04  <nielsm> "and get packets in return!!"
07:45:51  <andythenorth> so in addition to concerns about squirrel execution time, we could also add network latency :D
07:45:56  <andythenorth> how exciting!
07:46:32  <andythenorth> there is something really appealing about having the game controlled by an external process / server
07:46:37  <andythenorth> it's kind of mad
07:47:01  <nielsm> libopenttd that contains the full simulation engine
07:47:14  <nielsm> so you can build an AI that connects as a player
07:47:21  <nielsm> or a GS that connects as admin
07:47:27  <nielsm> and write it in whatever you want
07:48:03  <nielsm> and allow the adminport to accept arbitrary game command packets, as long as they can be executed as deity
07:49:49  <LordAro> yeah, but with no names or anything
07:49:53  <LordAro> just use the enum numbers :p
07:51:23  <andythenorth> quite quite mad
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08:31:10  <FLHerne> LordAro: The benefit of multiple GSs in-game is to allow combining GSs that do orthogonal things
08:31:36  <FLHerne> (and thus allow GSs that do something interesting but limited in scope)
08:32:22  <FLHerne> Right now you can't use a goal script and also a script that builds roads between towns
08:32:44  <FLHerne> So someone made an AI that builds roads between towns instead, but then it runs out of money and people want it to cheat...
08:33:21  <FLHerne> I never really understand the objection
08:33:48  <FLHerne> If it's "players will combine things that conflict horribly and break the game"...we have grfs
08:34:22  <FLHerne> They can already do that
08:34:37  <FLHerne> They can break the GS, too
08:36:48  <andythenorth> it's nice to let different programmes write over the same memory? :)
08:39:41  <nielsm> well not strictly like that, but yeah multiple programs pulling the same objects in different directions
08:39:47  <nielsm> without any chance of cooperations
08:39:53  <nielsm> -s
08:41:17  <andythenorth> but it's 'probably fine' right?
08:42:15  <LordAro> personally i think we should work to limit the ways players can break the game
08:49:26  <andythenorth> probably correct
08:49:32  <andythenorth> where's the sense of adventure though? :)
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08:49:49  <andythenorth> newgrfs used to have to collaborate about vehicle IDs and crap
08:51:06  <Samu> hi
09:20:01  <andythenorth> I write variable names with very poor signal to noise ratio
09:20:08  <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_intermodal_container_cars
09:20:09  <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_vehicle_transporter_cars
09:20:20  <andythenorth> and if I don't, I get confused about what things are
09:20:21  <andythenorth> weird
09:20:42  <andythenorth> the ratio of information to noise there is probably 1:1 or less
09:25:38  * dP just found a class in my old code with methods kv, ks, kd, kl, bd, ed and el xD
09:27:35  <andythenorth> ha
09:27:58  <andythenorth> I don't think everyone reads the way I read
09:28:06  <andythenorth> my brain mostly parses the shape of the word
09:28:14  <andythenorth> I don't need to read the words usually
09:28:20  <LordAro> i don't think that's uncommon
09:28:35  <andythenorth> I have friends who definitely don't work that way
09:28:47  <andythenorth> it's one of the reasons that block caps isn't used on, .e.g road signs though
09:29:04  <LordAro> probably quite a high correlation with those that can "speed read"
09:29:07  <andythenorth> even though in pure legibility tests, some people do better with block caps letters
09:30:30  <dP>
09:30:44  <andythenorth> I can almost scan read that
09:31:12  <andythenorth> that's nearly as fast as reading it not scrambled
09:31:20  * andythenorth saves that link:)
09:32:32  <dP> it's so meme it can be googled with just "can read"
09:33:14  <FLHerne> Some student emailed me a while ago to say he'd found a bug in my code, I'd written `wibbledmean(ltsum)` instead of `wibbledmean(ttsum)`
09:33:32  <FLHerne> I had to reply and say I had no idea what I was thinking when I wrote any of that, sorry :-(
09:34:00  <FLHerne> tbf, I was a teenager and even more clueless than now
09:36:57  <FLHerne>
09:37:38  <FLHerne> #1463112 Cat sitting on keyboard crashes lightdm -> marked as duplicate of 1538615: Cat causes login screen to hang.
09:38:02  <FLHerne> Cats are great fuzz testers
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10:33:36  <andythenorth> hmm
10:33:39  <andythenorth> me and python
10:33:52  <andythenorth> I am able to call modules that I haven't explicitly imported
10:33:55  <andythenorth> this is 'interesting'
10:42:08  <andythenorth> if I import a submodule, do I get the module in the namespace as a side effect?
10:42:10  * andythenorth assumes so
10:47:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8228: Fix: Thread unsafe use of NetworkAddress::GetAddressAsString
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10:51:36  * andythenorth leaves the python thing alone, it works, just don't like 'works by accident' :D
10:56:49  * andythenorth hopes this fixes cmake mac build locally
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13:28:25  <andythenorth> the drama in this title is real
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14:22:47  <dP> hm, "openttd train is lost" 25300 results on google, "openttd ship is lost" - 738000 xD
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14:42:22  <b_jonas> heh
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15:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, ships do get lost much easier than trains
15:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and that is despite the fact that there are usually more trains
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15:41:47  <frosch123> yeah, players should care more about their ships
15:42:10  <Wolf01> Buoys, buoys everywhere
15:42:45  <frosch123> losing a ship is like losing 1.8*10^9 €, and noone knows where they are
15:43:04  <Wolf01> Just shut down the transponder
15:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that's MH370, that's a plane... :p
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16:16:57  <FLHerne> I bought 10 onion bagels for 78 pence :D
16:17:42  <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites
16:18:33  <FLHerne> There are community projects to identify and track boats that violate fishing restrictions and so forth
16:19:52  <Wolf01> <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites <- good luck finding a particular ship in the ocean
16:20:26  <FLHerne> Planet Labs etc. have 5m-resolution coverage multiple times a day now
16:20:58  <FLHerne> You never have to find a particular ship from nowhere, you find it within a few hours' sailing of where it was last time
16:21:28  <FLHerne> And the vast majority of ships do have transponders
16:22:58  <FLHerne> So the one you're looking for is something that image-recognition thinks is probably a ship, but doesn't correspond to any known ships
16:23:36  <FLHerne> And a top-down view of empty ocean is pretty favourable on the false-positives front
16:24:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8232: "Huge screenshot" warning incorrect for heightmap / minimap screenshots
16:24:19  <FLHerne> Not many things in the ocean look much like a ship, except maybe some islands, but they don't move so you can just flag them once
16:24:51  <frosch123> what about all that plastic junk?
16:26:10  <FLHerne> Those don't really look like a ship at all?
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19:11:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar
19:12:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar
19:23:52  <frosch123> isn't that a security issue?
19:25:32  <frosch123> ah, it cannot leave the tar
19:27:04  <frosch123> or can it?
19:31:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aruscher commented on issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length
19:39:16  <andythenorth> hmmm
19:39:21  <andythenorth> vehicle transporters
19:39:28  <andythenorth> need randomised trucks / cars
19:39:34  <andythenorth> and need to change by game date
19:43:39  <frosch123> use recolouring
19:44:12  <frosch123> not sure how many pixels are affected by game date
19:44:20  <frosch123> a car is still pretty much a car
19:44:44  <frosch123> unless you want a horse cart transporter
19:45:27  <glx> frosch123: I made sure it can't
19:45:57  <frosch123> glx: nice :)
19:46:04  <frosch123> quite a lot of magic in that function
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20:16:59  <Speeder_> the opengfx+ devs have an irc somewhere?
20:17:03  <Speeder_> or they hang out here?
20:18:19  <frosch123> there has been no activity in probably 5 years
20:18:42  <LordAro> @topic get 3
20:18:42  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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22:02:07  <Speeder_> anyone know what is the  industry newgrf easiest to modify to work with nml5 features?
22:02:18  <Speeder_> (like specific inputs having specific outputs)
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22:11:54  <andythenorth> I doubt there are any yet
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22:26:13  <Speeder_> a
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22:54:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load
22:55:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load
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