Log for #openttd on 25th June 2020:
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03:05:08  <supermop_Home> fireworks time
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08:00:59  <andythenorth> yo
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11:35:00  <milek7> I bought 4K displays :D
11:46:30  <andythenorth> wow
11:46:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly
11:46:36  <andythenorth> is is it wicked?
11:48:53  <milek7> everything is tiny now
11:57:19  <andythenorth> I have a 3k laptop screen
11:57:35  <andythenorth> if I set it to native resolution everything is sooooo tiny
12:03:46  <milek7> looks nice..
12:04:13  <milek7> but various dpi settings in various app will be annoying
12:07:32  <Flygon> I can't wait for 4K to be standard.
12:09:02  <andythenorth> on the mac, the move to hidpi (retina) is one of the things that absolutely killed OpenTTD performance
12:09:08  <andythenorth> not sure how it goes for other platforms
12:09:17  <andythenorth> it's just got to push a lot more pixels to the screen
12:12:54  <milek7>
12:12:58  <milek7>
12:14:42  <milek7> slower, but doesn't seem too bad
12:23:21  <milek7> I can't tell why, but something feels wrong
12:23:35  <milek7> pixel-perfect UI doesn't survive scaling very well
12:29:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can you not turn it off?
12:29:35  <andythenorth> hidpi?
12:29:52  <andythenorth> only by buying a different computer
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13:57:40  <milek7> eh, gtk doesn't support fractional scaling
14:06:48  <FLHerne> milek7: It sort of does
14:07:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Most HiDPI things have some form of pixel-doubling mode, either globally or per-application?
14:07:34  <FLHerne> I'm sure Macs used to
14:07:55  <andythenorth> still have to paint the number of pixels in the display
14:08:07  <andythenorth> maybe the display hardware can do that
14:08:18  <andythenorth> just switch on 4 at once
14:08:48  <milek7> 2x scale on gpu shader should be almost free
14:09:04  <andythenorth> mac laptops have absolutely crap gpus
14:09:05  <FLHerne> Yes
14:09:20  <FLHerne> Not that crap
14:10:08  <andythenorth>  Radeon Pro 5500M
14:10:16  <andythenorth> if it's running on mains power
14:10:25  <andythenorth> otherwise some intel integrated thing
14:10:49  <andythenorth> playing games, it's seriously outclassed by my kids ipads
14:11:14  <andythenorth> the 2D graphics performance is also *horrible*
14:11:21  <andythenorth> lots of lag
14:11:30  <milek7> maybe it's just crap drivers
14:11:46  <andythenorth> crap hardware, crap drivers
14:11:49  <andythenorth> buggy OS
14:12:30  <andythenorth> apple world is not what it used to be
14:16:02  <FLHerne> > maybe it's just crap drivers  < yes
14:16:27  <FLHerne> Phoronix has done a few benchmarks of macOS vs Windows vs Linux on the same hardware
14:16:46  <FLHerne> Windows and Linux ~equal, macOS ~20% slower
14:17:20  <FLHerne> Maybe with their own GPUs at some poin it'll be better?
14:17:38  <FLHerne> As you say, their mobile performance is impressive
14:23:08  <andythenorth> in some places the mac is fine
14:23:13  <andythenorth> in other places it's running on fumes
14:23:26  <andythenorth> it used to be a simpler product, and there was a period 2000-2010 when it was rock solid
14:24:02  <andythenorth> I suspect it's constant work to attract and retain very high calibre engineering staff for the mac
14:24:19  <andythenorth> and in places clown shoes appear
14:24:57  <andythenorth> they're not worth the current premium unless you're already invested in the ecosystem
14:25:16  <andythenorth> there was a time when I would unhesitatingly recommend macs to anyone who didn't want to deal with 'actual computer'
14:25:37  <andythenorth> now its more like 'potato / potato', it's all the same
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15:43:56  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: apple was on top of the world when steve jobs came back
15:44:10  <snail_UES_> in 2001 I switched from windows 95 to Mac OS 9.2 and it was like from hell to heaven
15:44:15  <andythenorth> ha
15:44:27  <andythenorth> I switched when it was mac os 8
15:44:30  <andythenorth> and things only got better
15:44:42  <snail_UES_> now OS X is trying to retain windows users, and catalina forces us to abandon 32-bit apps
15:45:10  <andythenorth> it was funny that OS 8 and 9 crashed so much, that (1) restart time was used in the marketing (2) there was an actual 'restart' button
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16:01:47  <FLHerne> System 7 was the greatest
16:01:57  <FLHerne> I still have my install CD for 7.6 somewhere
16:02:41  <FLHerne> I remember downgrading from 9 to 8, because the former sucked
16:06:45  <arikover> I remember the 2nd generation iMac "Snow" was bundled with 9.2 and the first OSX.
16:07:22  <arikover> With some sort of dual boot.
16:28:10  <andythenorth> I remember getting the OS X beta CD
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17:03:44  <supermop_Home> whatever ran on my dad's SE/30 was the greatest
17:09:40  <andythenorth> let's play tanks
17:09:43  * andythenorth plays tanks
17:13:41  <FLHerne> You should draw tanks for OTTD
17:13:53  <FLHerne> There are so many kinds of well wagon
17:14:13  <FLHerne> And military trains have all kinds of weird formations
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17:45:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:52  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:21:15  <supermop_Home> yayoi kusama air maxes but only for sale in japan :(
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19:37:52  <andythenorth> FLHerne reddit requested that
19:38:07  <andythenorth> can't be military themed though eh
19:42:12  <milek7> why?
19:43:33  <andythenorth>
19:45:39  <FLHerne> I think so long as the base game has that "fighter jet blows up a refinery" disaster it's hard to defend that as a real policy :p
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19:47:36  <milek7> I don't think these objectives are binding to newgrf content?
19:48:02  <milek7> anyway, hard to argue that tanks are unsuitable for children
19:48:05  <milek7> too many tank toys
19:49:31  <andythenorth> well I've stuck to the rule :)
19:49:42  <andythenorth> even though military themes don't bother me
19:49:48  <andythenorth> quite fascinated by war and stuff
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22:52:13  <Speeder_> what reddit requested?
22:52:26  <Speeder_> honestly I don't understand why there is no military stuff in openttd
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22:53:00  <Speeder_> the reasoning I see on that page is literally, dangerous, according to some research.
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23:09:18  <supermop_Home> Speeder_part of it is the spirit of the game
23:10:09  <supermop_Home> part of it, is that there is no way to do any war related gameplay, so military transport is pretty meaningless
23:11:12  <supermop_Home> and at the level of abstraction that Openttd gameplay is at, materiel would really just be mostly 'Goods' or equivalent
23:12:09  <supermop_Home> so it kind of takes of the air of trying to force martial themes into a space where they are kind of alien
23:13:07  <Speeder_> what I was referring too is the "ages" thing
23:13:22  <Speeder_> the spirit of the game is avoid war themes to make it fit all ages
23:13:27  <supermop_Home> yeah
23:13:31  <supermop_Home> that's part of it
23:13:40  <Speeder_> problem is... there are strong suspicions this is why wars are cyclic
23:14:26  <Speeder_> adults, that didn't saw war personally, know it is bad because the generation that did saw war tells them, but they don't tell their own kids, kinda like OpenTTD spirit document.
23:15:09  <Speeder_> when the veterans all are dead, the kids that were raised not knowing about war, think war is good idea to make changes.
23:15:13  <Speeder_> and then start a real war.
23:15:14  <supermop_Home> personally i find the need to cram military stuff into an abstract world that has no war or even nations, is more disturbing that military stuff in a game about war
23:15:16  <Speeder_> and cycle repeats.
23:16:11  <supermop_Home> Speeder_ most of the people who decide to make war at the national level were certainly alive for at least one previous war
23:16:47  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I am not talking about USA style of attacking random countries far away
23:16:57  <Speeder_> I am talking about major wars, civil wars, etc...
23:17:42  <Speeder_> anyway what I just said is the theory in a field named "cliodynamics"
23:18:24  <Speeder_> for example in USA internal violence spikes every 50 years or so. with one of those peaks being the civil war.
23:18:47  <supermop_Home> i'm not sure what civil war was started in a country that had no living memory of violent conflict
23:22:34  <supermop_Home> also i do not need to have been in a war to know that i do not prefer force of arms as means of enacting policy
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23:24:07  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, how I explain it... when there is mounting unrest, people that lived through a civil war feel inclined to fix the situation harder without conflict, but people that didn't see a civil war might feel tempted to use violence, for example with riots or political assassination.
23:24:12  <Speeder_> then things escalate from there.
23:24:53  <supermop_Home> also most people in my grandparents generation who fought in the war did not really talk about it until very late in life - long after their children or even grandchildren were adults
23:25:41  <supermop_Home> i was already in my mid 20s by the time my grandpa was ready to talk about his time in the Philippines
23:25:53  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, you think if there was unrest and young people were calling for war, the silent veterans wouldn't tell them to cut the crap?
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23:26:29  <supermop_Home> i don't know, I've never lived somewhere where young people have called for war
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23:26:39  <supermop_Home> only where old people have called for war
23:27:45  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I assume you live in a somewhat advanced country.
23:27:52  <supermop_Home> and of my peers who did go to war, some have become more conservative, and some more liberal after.
23:27:54  <Speeder_> in economic sens,e that is.
23:27:59  <supermop_Home> not exactly
23:28:33  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, where are you from, if  you don't mind me asking?
23:29:03  <supermop_Home> though none of my acquaintances who did go to war thought it was a good idea after they came home (not counting the one who didn't come home)
23:30:00  <supermop_Home> a place that has been to war in each of the past 8 decades
23:30:22  <supermop_Home> im going to go grab some ice cream
23:58:16  <Speeder_> nearby_station_name my nml doesn't compile because of that
23:58:20  <Speeder_> why nearby_station_name is not valid?
23:58:32  <Speeder_> nevermind
23:58:44  <Speeder_> it was missing ;

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