Log for #openttd on 26th June 2020:
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01:15:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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02:28:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
02:34:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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03:02:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
03:03:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
03:40:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
03:48:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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05:33:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly
05:59:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot
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06:09:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot
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06:36:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot
06:40:08  <arikover> hello.
06:41:33  <andythenorth> moin
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10:09:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly
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10:41:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly
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12:18:05  <supermop_Home> hi
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16:02:53  <andythenorth_> supermop_Home quite sharp with the consist
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16:27:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] duckfullstop opened pull request #8238: Update documentation to acknowledge integer type mismatch in certain admin packets
16:27:37  <duckfullstop> ^ as discussed a week or two ago in this channel
16:51:24  <b_jonas> can you tell me what the settings in new world generation mean, especially "Terrain type", "Variety distribution" and "Smoothness"? I haven't seen docs for these, and there don't seem to be tooltips
16:52:22  <b_jonas> I'm trying to generate a nice starting map, with a combination of fiddling with options and startscumming, which I think is worth the time since I'll ideally spend real world days playing on the same map
16:53:52  <nielsm> terrain type: maximum height generated
16:55:03  <nielsm> variety distribution: amount of areas that are flat as opposed to high (makes flat areas in mountainous maps)
16:56:20  <nielsm> smoothness (somewhat) controls how jagged the map can be, lower smoothness can lead to more small bumps
16:57:23  <b_jonas> nielsm: thanks
16:58:03  <nielsm> the effect of smoothness can be difficult to see due to the way ottd terrain works
16:59:14  <b_jonas> ah yes, smoothness definitely seems to affect the edges of the continent at the oceans on each of the four map edges
17:00:18  <b_jonas> what I don't like about these generated terrains is that it puts so many transmitters on the hills. it's probably because I lowered the density of towns and industries so there's space to put those transmitters, but that's rather annoying
17:00:28  <b_jonas> I'd be happy with mountains if they weren't so full of transmitters
17:00:47  <b_jonas> is there some way to change that, short of magic bulldozering them?
17:00:58  <b_jonas> or, I guess, using the scenario editor
17:01:07  <nielsm> nope
17:01:26  <b_jonas> pity
17:02:22  <b_jonas> I'll try the scenario editor then
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17:03:04  <b_jonas> but wait, there's a "Maximum map height" option too, besides the "Terrain type". how do those differ?
17:03:33  <nielsm> I'm not actually sure how they interact
17:06:33  <b_jonas> can I somehow generate a world with the normal world generator and edit it with the scenario editor?
17:07:08  <b_jonas> the scenario editor has some of the tools from that, like the heighmap generator including rivers, random trees, random towns, random industries etc, but not the whole thing together
17:07:24  <nielsm> nope, we talked a bit about that the other day
17:07:33  <nielsm> how the editor is lacking those tools
17:07:41  <b_jonas> I'm not saying that I'm missing the random transmitter placement specifically, mind you
17:08:36  <nielsm> I'm planning to make some improvement to the trees tool, hopefully I can get some code working tonight or sunday
17:08:54  <andythenorth_> maybe landscape generation in stages?
17:09:01  <andythenorth_> map, then features?
17:09:36  <b_jonas> is there a newgrf that turns off the animation of the sea? I know the "Full animation" option in the settings menu turns it off, so that's a good workaround until that. the animation is distracting when I zoom far out, because then it just looks like the water is flashing
17:10:35  <b_jonas> also, while I'm not sure I actually want this, is there a newgrf for temperate climate that makes Steel plants require both iron ore and coal, Locomotion style?
17:12:16  <b_jonas> in the scenario editor, how do I create rough land tiles (dark green)? there's a tool to create rock tiles, but I don't see a rough land one
17:13:01  <b_jonas> ok never mind, I probably can't use the scenario editor for this
17:13:16  <b_jonas> I'll just generate a map and magic bulldozer the transmitters
17:13:26  <b_jonas> well, most of them
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17:41:42  <b_jonas> ok, I removed most transmitters and lighthouses with the magic bulldozer, I'll try to play the map this way
17:43:47  <b_jonas> thank you for the help andythenorth_ and nielsm
17:50:12  <FLHerne> duckfullstop: Question: why are the reddit server maps so incredibly huge?
17:50:39  <duckfullstop> FLHerne: it's to try to encourage people to spread out a bit and not get on other people's toes (we have regular issues with intentional blocking)
17:51:03  <FLHerne> Yeah, but then no-one interacts and there's no point in it being multiplayer :p
17:51:15  <duckfullstop> they were made hugerer with the last infra move, S2's map in particular may be downsized soon
17:51:24  <duckfullstop> yeah, it's a fine balance
17:51:39  <FLHerne> Especially with the number of industries
17:51:59  <duckfullstop> I did screw with the settings recently, there's definitely more tweaks to come
17:52:11  <FLHerne> I mean, literally 98% of these are never going to be used by anyone
17:52:17  <FLHerne> (on S2)
17:52:31  <duckfullstop> actually, let me tweak the staging config quickly
17:52:35  <duckfullstop> thanks for reminding me to do that
17:53:42  <duckfullstop> I've dropped the map size on S2 but S1 needs more thought
17:54:06  <duckfullstop> the problem is when you have so many clients (not to brag), the potential for abuse is so much higher
17:54:44  <duckfullstop> I've noticed an uptick in the last 4-5 months of people causing issues by intentionally blocking, then again map size won't stop abuse by those who wish to abuse
17:54:57  <duckfullstop> fairly sure lockdown's given the trolls way more free time
17:55:34  <FLHerne> duckfullstop: S2 is just bananas atm
17:56:06  <duckfullstop> might also experiment with switching firs out for ecs, that's tbd though
17:56:15  <FLHerne> Alternate or something?
17:56:31  <FLHerne> I wouldn't mind playing with ECS more, it seems underused
17:57:01  <duckfullstop> maybe, alternating requires my new tooling to be a bit more complete
17:57:23  <duckfullstop> I don't have the time to manually twist the config regularly, laziness requires automation :V
17:58:32  <FLHerne> FWIW, the huge maps and excess industries really do put me off
17:59:35  <FLHerne> It just feels futile trying to build a network when I'll never be able to build a comprehensive network even in a small area
18:11:23  <b_jonas> as for excess industries, I wish I could pay an industry to close faster if nobody services it (eg. pay a large sum every month to guarantee that it will decrease its production if it doesn't get any service)
18:11:35  <b_jonas> sometimes a few industries really get in the way
18:11:39  <b_jonas> block paths
18:12:22  <frosch123> b_jonas: no idea whether someone mentioned it already, but you can generate a normal map, save it, rename the save from .sav to .scn, and load it in scenario editor
18:14:20  <nielsm> time to try if this explodes!
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18:33:15  <b_jonas> frosch123: ah thanks, that might be useful
18:34:47  <b_jonas> I might try that the next time, now I'm already playing this map, and at the phase where I try to figure out how to use signals correctly
18:36:50  <b_jonas> especially path signals for the early game where some of my tracks are two-way and some are one-way and they have to merge somehow
18:44:34  <andythenorth_> duckfullstop you need a better FIRS :P
18:44:45  <andythenorth_> I haven't released a v4 preview yet
18:45:22  <andythenorth_> not sure Steeltown is suited to casual server play though
18:48:13  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: something is following you ... it looks like a _
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18:51:53  <andythenorth_> oh god
18:51:58  <andythenorth_> now you have given me the fear
18:52:10  <andythenorth_> it's like the white rabbit when you're on drugs
18:52:15  <andythenorth_> stuck behind your legs
18:52:21  <andythenorth_> wherever you turn, it's behind you
18:52:56  <frosch123> you mean like when there is always a ghost truelight behind you?
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18:55:10  <TrueBrain> wait what where OMG NO RUN RUN RUN
18:55:23  <TrueBrain> (it is that I am too lazy to find out how to leave the channel .. but otherwise I would have :P)
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18:56:13  <frosch123> you have a bot for that. try @kick truebrain_ii
18:56:25  <TrueBrain> BUT I DONT WANT TO :(
18:56:29  <TrueBrain> wait, my alter ego is still here?
18:56:32  <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain_ii
18:56:32  *** TrueBrain_ii was kicked by DorpsGek (TrueBrain)
18:56:35  <TrueBrain> yeah, that helps :)
18:56:36  <TrueBrain> tnx frosch123  :)
18:56:38  <frosch123> :)
18:56:58  <TrueBrain> lol; it crashed Konversation :D Nice :)
18:58:11  <TrueBrain> 22k unread messages on that alter-ego, w00p
18:58:56  <frosch123> reply to the oldest one?
19:00:42  <TrueBrain> making a backup to install update 2004 ..
19:00:52  <TrueBrain> found out how much crap I have on disk
19:01:46  <frosch123> i hope 2004 is not a year
19:02:27  <LordAro> it would've been 2003, but they bumped it to not cause confusion with the server version
19:07:01  <TrueBrain> Windows Update doesn't show the update yet, but I have been told that the Windows 10 setup is going to install it .. lets find out!
19:07:05  <TrueBrain> what could POSSIBLY go wrong :D
19:09:38  <LordAro> shiny
19:21:00  <nielsm>  TREES!
19:21:31  <nielsm> and that's an editor-only tool
19:24:05  <andythenorth_> nice
19:24:13  <andythenorth_> brush painting :)
19:24:17  <LordAro> nice
19:27:12  <nielsm> slight issue with the gui in game mode:
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19:32:51  <frosch123> nielsm: you probably want to look for SZSP_HORIZONTAL
19:35:15  <nielsm> oh
19:35:30  <nielsm> yes that works
19:35:31  <nielsm> ty
19:38:57  <nielsm> now I'm not sure if I should make it do drag paintbrush style, or just keep it to single clicks
19:39:30  <frosch123> shall i link the terraform drama? :p
19:39:32  <LordAro> i'd say that would be better almost entirely
19:39:48  <LordAro> as long as it doesn't repeat if you don't move
19:39:59  <nielsm> will people be angry if I improve the scenario editor tools?
19:40:10  <nielsm> and make them not-annoying to use
19:40:16  <LordAro> <insert Workflow xkcd here>
19:40:18  <frosch123>
19:40:57  <frosch123> nielsm: there was some argument whether dragging should action immediately, or whether it should make a rectangle orthogonal/diagonal
19:41:07  <frosch123> and whether se and in-game should be the same or different
19:41:35  <frosch123> trunk went with making terraform orthogonal on drag, and diagonal on ctrl+drag, in both se/in-game
19:41:45  <frosch123> so, the drag-paint fanboys were unhappy :)
19:42:34  <LordAro> i feel like no one knows about the ctrl+drag feature
19:43:47  <frosch123>  <- would be funny if they didn't know :p
19:46:33  <nielsm> meh, no drag-painting for now, not in the mood to try to understand the VpStartPlaceSizing and family functions enough to add a new mode
19:47:15  <frosch123> yep, i think i tried to refactor them twice, failed twice :)
19:48:26  <nielsm> maybe the solution is not to refactor but to rewrite
19:49:36  <frosch123> i dreamed of having proper highlights when placing industries and other non-rectangular shapes
19:49:49  <andythenorth_> but layouts?
19:49:59  <frosch123> they are decided on the client
19:50:14  <frosch123> even when random
19:50:36  <frosch123> so the highlight could know which one it is going to be
19:50:50  <frosch123> or you could make a scroll-wheel select layout or similar
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19:51:37  <supermop_Home> in SE, it would be nice to select layout
19:52:36  <frosch123> it could also red-highlight the tiles that fail the slope check
19:52:45  <frosch123> instead of just erroring after clicking
19:52:47  <nielsm> hm does the client decide which layout to use? is it game-random or interactive-random?
19:53:01  <frosch123> iirc it is the interactive-random
19:53:15  <frosch123> so the funding client decides the layout
19:53:21  <nielsm> right, yeah then it could definitely be shown
19:54:19  <frosch123>  * - p1 = (bit  8 - 15) - first layout to try  <- ah, not quite correct
19:55:20  <andythenorth_> oh
19:55:33  <andythenorth_> I thought it tried all layouts in a sequence?
19:55:45  <frosch123> still, i think the purpose of those bits were to make the test-run on the client work
19:55:50  <frosch123> so the preview is still valid
19:56:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8234: Trees GUI improvements
19:56:21  <nielsm> there, observe the sausages
19:56:22  <frosch123> andythenorth_: no, it tries them in a randomised order
19:56:31  <andythenorth_> well
19:56:34  <andythenorth_> that's interesting :)
19:57:49  <frosch123> hmm, again slightly off :) it picks a random first layout to try, then tries them in order
19:58:23  <frosch123> so if you have 5 hard layouts, followed by 2 easily placed layouts, the first easily placed one is way more likely that the other
19:58:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8234: Trees GUI improvements
19:59:32  <andythenorth_> related: I can't decide if large layouts would be good or not
19:59:46  <andythenorth_> I removed them from FIRS because they don't get placed
19:59:53  <andythenorth_> I also can't remember if they looked good
20:00:30  <frosch123> there are some kids who play on entirely flat maps
20:00:36  <supermop_Home> they look good, but a map covered in the same huge aluminum mill everywhere is od
20:00:37  <supermop_Home> d
20:01:09  <supermop_Home> sheds, outbuildings, piles of stuff should be fields?
20:01:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8234: Trees GUI improvements
20:05:26  <FLHerne> looks just like a fiddle yard
20:05:29  <supermop_Home> nielsm trees look good
20:06:16  <supermop_Home> off to get beer
20:07:17  <andythenorth_> FLHerne kind of is a 1:1 fiddle yard
20:07:33  <andythenorth_> FIRS quarries used to be huge
20:07:37  <andythenorth_> 9x4
20:07:43  <andythenorth_> and required all flat :P
20:09:21  <andythenorth_> 9x6 fruit plantation
20:10:38  <andythenorth_> a 'big' FIRS industry now is 5x4
20:10:50  <andythenorth_> but most stations I build are 6 or 8 TL
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20:20:22  <andythenorth_> I could maybe push them to 6x5
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20:25:48  <frosch123> ttd industries are quite dense
20:25:56  <frosch123> real ones have a lot of roads on site
20:26:17  <andythenorth_> I did have gapped industries, but I removed them
20:26:25  <andythenorth_> they look odd
20:27:02  <andythenorth_> if I had higher capacity wagons, I could use shorter trains :P
20:27:03  <frosch123> yes, but those were with grass?
20:27:05  <andythenorth_> then it would all be chibi
20:27:12  <andythenorth_> those were gapped with grass yes
20:27:18  <frosch123> what if there were tram tracks and heqs vehicles?
20:27:34  <frosch123> owned by the industry, not player-accessible
20:27:42  <frosch123> all fenced off
20:27:56  <andythenorth_> just as sprites?
20:28:17  <andythenorth_> nielsm has that branch for sub-layouts
20:28:23  <frosch123> yes, essentially: less building, more industry-owned infrastructure tiles
20:28:50  <andythenorth_> I think for really big layout yes it would be better to repeat a smaller layout 2 or 3 times, and have roads
20:29:07  <andythenorth_> I don't know if I like really big layouts
20:29:20  <andythenorth_> also Will They Build? :D
20:30:21  <nielsm> the major issue with sub-layouts is if they fail to build it's difficult to roll back, or you can't figure out whether it would be possible to build
20:31:04  <andythenorth_> I could do a similar thing in the compile, but more pre-baked
20:31:19  * andythenorth_ BBL
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20:45:56  <b_jonas> I have the feeling that this layout will cause problems and I'll have to debug it later
20:56:25  <Speeder_> nml5 with old syntax support is not released as package yet?
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22:27:11  <b_jonas> when a train wants to go to a depot for servicing, does it just find the closest depot, or does it think ahead one step about which one is in the way towards the next station?
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