Log for #openttd on 30th June 2020:
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00:45:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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02:43:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
02:49:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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03:49:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
03:54:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
04:23:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8244: Fix #8216: Don't show floating text on autoreplace if cost is 0
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04:32:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8238: Update documentation to acknowledge integer type mismatch in certain admin packets
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06:16:54  <andythenorth>
06:16:58  <andythenorth> only 
06:20:37  * andythenorth has registered
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06:38:52  <andythenorth> such excite
06:39:09  <LordAro> \o/
06:47:08  <andythenorth> the other end is awaiting DNS propogation
06:47:42  <LordAro> andythenorth: it works!
06:48:05  <andythenorth> I get a gandi parking page
06:48:16  <LordAro> probably cached somewhere
06:48:20  <andythenorth> yup
06:51:41  <andythenorth> the AWS instructions for setting up a http site are pretty good
06:51:56  <andythenorth> I'll do the cloudfront bollocks next to get https
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07:28:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:41:13  <andythenorth> hmm looks like a long default TTL
07:44:37  <andythenorth> remote website testing services see it working
07:44:49  <andythenorth> looks like Virgin have cached DNS results
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08:18:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen
08:31:27  <andythenorth> I suspect the next 72 hours are going to be mostly me moaning about TTL
08:31:52  <LordAro> F
08:32:03  <LordAro> i'd be surprised if it was more than 48
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08:43:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8188: CMake mac tweaks
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09:01:27  <andythenorth> you're right, the default was 48hrs
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09:46:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
09:59:46  <andythenorth> hurrah my Virgin DNS refreshed
09:59:47  <andythenorth>
10:03:44  <andythenorth>
10:17:03  <planetmaker> hey ho :) sounds... excellent :)
10:25:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker I did wonder if we could somehow how keep bundles alive, I do like it
10:26:02  <andythenorth> but ultimately I could solve this by clicking on some buttons, so I did :P
10:26:13  <andythenorth> bundles was much appreciated
10:27:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, we can keep it alive. I have no plans to shut that down
10:29:03  <planetmaker> I simply currently miss time to maintain much of the services or do much else. However the server will remain available and bundles is not much more than a file dump with a http server attached anyway
10:30:17  <planetmaker> and if s/o or somewhat needs ssh there... I shall happily install a root key for you or another trusted person so that it can be reasonably used should I be temporarily not available
10:30:38  <planetmaker> (and there's always ^spike^ who has root on everything there, too
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12:18:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen
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13:20:49  <andythenorth>
13:21:00  <andythenorth> will I automate uploading these with GH actions?
13:21:09  <andythenorth> or just do it manually only on tagged versions?
13:26:09  <LordAro> why not automate uploading these with GH actions only on tagged versions? :p
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13:33:49  <andythenorth> supermop_Home o/
13:34:00  <andythenorth> LordAro yes that could be done
13:34:12  <andythenorth> that automation XKCD would apply, how often do I tag?
13:34:27  <andythenorth> bundles did it for 100+ projects, definitely worth it
13:34:31  <andythenorth> I have....5 or so
13:35:01  <andythenorth> I am not averse to learning GH Actions though
13:36:34  <LordAro> andythenorth: if you're doing GH actions anyway, it's not a lot more effort on top
13:36:56  <andythenorth> I'm only doing it to get the docs publishing tbh
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13:37:35  <andythenorth> if I do it manually, I'll probably brown bag at some point
14:13:35  <supermop_Home> hi andythenorth
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14:26:51  <supermop_Home> i ended up buying neither a train nor a box of Japanese records
14:27:01  <supermop_Home> instead i bough yet another coffee scale
15:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> a coffee scale is where you rate it from 1 to 10? :p
15:31:48  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause maybe i will use imperial and rate it out of 12
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15:53:09  <andythenorth> oof
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15:54:02  <andythenorth> supermop_Home FLHerne shall I ruin my nice tech tree, and add random British engines with no gameplay rationale? :P
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16:26:17  <arikover> What sort of engines?
16:33:49  <andythenorth> stuff like this
16:34:08  <andythenorth> only of interest to people recreating British railways in OpenTTD
16:34:14  <andythenorth> minimal gameplay value
16:34:31  <andythenorth> overlaps existing engines, but with moderately worse stats in all areas
16:40:58  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Parameter?
16:41:16  <FLHerne> Or just another roster...
16:41:28  <andythenorth> I have a Joker parameter
16:41:38  <andythenorth> turns on the 08, snowplough etc
16:42:17  <andythenorth> they'd go in the bit of the tech tree that says "Lolz: Silly trains that don't have any gameplay purpose but look nice."
16:42:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think adding more variety to the normal roster is probably better value-for-time?
16:42:43  <andythenorth> or I could do the European or US rosters :P
16:42:45  <FLHerne> Things like the three identical generations of Shoebox
16:43:25  <FLHerne> And the freight kettles still look somewhat unloved
16:44:05  <andythenorth> they're a bit non-descript
16:44:18  <FLHerne> Maybe a 60 instead of the 59, so they aren't identical at TTD scale?
16:45:04  <andythenorth> the 60 is the Vanguard, but it's a never-built class 38
16:45:08  <andythenorth> could be a 58
16:45:17  <andythenorth> that was one of the others I was considering
16:46:02  <andythenorth> it's all very realistic to have endless class 73, 37 and 59/66
16:46:08  <andythenorth> but a bit samey
16:46:13  <FLHerne> Yes
16:46:17  <FLHerne> 58 would be good
16:46:20  <andythenorth> if only we had daylength :P
16:46:22  <FLHerne> Distinctive
16:46:33  <andythenorth> I could do 20 year generations not 30
16:46:43  <andythenorth> anyway, daylength is solved in GS
16:46:48  <andythenorth> so I could redesign for that
16:49:26  <arikover> andythenorth: I find the Grub/Gronk quite useful for small shunting (factory to freight station)
16:49:40  <andythenorth> I use it for little novelty lines
16:52:58  <arikover> The Grub is also nice for early tram-like service (low density passenger), or as a low-cost metro.
16:53:40  * andythenorth looking up never-built british engines
16:54:22  <andythenorth> I did have a class 70, but I removed it, they're ugly
16:54:37  <nielsm> so should we add a feature for "scripting properties" on newgrf items?
16:54:39  <andythenorth> and I wanted to use more sheds
16:54:44  <andythenorth> nielsm explain more? :)
16:55:10  <nielsm> let things add a list of arbitrary fourcc-named properties that scripts can query
16:55:41  <nielsm> to allow newgrf to better explain themselves to scripts how they're "supposed" to be used
16:56:09  <nielsm> like have a "GENR" property where engines with the same value are logically "same generation"
16:57:03  <andythenorth> that sounds dangerously close to the arbitrary props I wanted  for var 61 :)
16:57:04  <nielsm> or a FRTP and PASP set of properties that indicate how preferred they are supposed to be for freight and passengers
16:57:54  <andythenorth> unless it's hidden to newgrf, I would abuse it :)
16:58:00  <nielsm> or ALTG for "alternative groups", a generation/tech tree GS could allow a player to pick one of several alternatives to get
16:58:09  <andythenorth> 'equivalent to'
16:59:30  <nielsm> either way, just a generic way to let newgrf specify stuff that can be queried later, but otherwise has no effect in the base game
17:00:00  <andythenorth> you think the user bits might be a poor solution to that? :P
17:00:21  <nielsm> ?
17:00:43  <andythenorth> newgrf trains have a prop with arbitrary bits
17:00:49  <andythenorth> can be used in certain queries
17:00:53  <andythenorth> afaik, it's mostly useless
17:01:54  <andythenorth> prop 25 User-defined bit mask to set when checking veh. var. 42
17:01:57  <andythenorth>
17:02:10  <andythenorth> can obviously be used outside var 42, but is of very limited value
17:02:48  <andythenorth> there's a certain kind of person who can envisage how to combine bitmask values in a way that's actually productive there
17:02:53  <andythenorth> and then there's the rest of us
17:04:26  <andythenorth> anyway, has anyone tried the daylength GS yet?
17:04:53  <andythenorth> I did look at it, but it (a) confused me (b) is incompatible with any reloading of newgrfs
17:05:05  <andythenorth> and I only have time to play games to test newgrfs
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17:05:49  <andythenorth> potentially it solves daylength, but it has had crickets response on forums
17:05:50  <andythenorth>
17:06:14  <andythenorth> shows the difference between 'what players say they care about' and 'what they actually care about'
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17:11:36  <andythenorth> quak?
17:12:26  <frosch123> ?
17:12:36  <andythenorth> considered it
17:12:57  <andythenorth> I had to restrain myself, buying domains on AWS would be very easy :P
17:13:05  <arikover> andythenorth: daylength GS? Are we talking about the same daylength feature included in JGR Patchpack?
17:13:12  <andythenorth> no
17:13:19  <andythenorth> the daylength GS I linked in forums
17:15:29  <arikover> I fail to understand why you call it Daylength GS. It's called tech advance, right?
17:15:44  <nielsm> yes it changes the speed tech gets introduced at
17:15:51  <nielsm> relative to the speed things move around the map
17:16:19  <andythenorth> it's an implementation of daylength
17:16:27  <arikover> But it does not change production rate of industries, right?
17:16:33  <nielsm> of course not
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17:17:15  <nielsm> if you change the production per tick of industries you change the balance between elements of the economy
17:18:24  <andythenorth> afaict, there is a small cohort who want daylength because it reduces industry and town production
17:18:34  <andythenorth> but those people could write a newgrf already
17:18:49  <andythenorth> I suspect what they see as a feature, is to other people a bug
17:19:04  <nielsm> firs already allows you to change the base production rate of primaries, right?
17:19:12  <andythenorth> not in parameters
17:19:16  <andythenorth> but it could be done
17:19:25  <andythenorth> we talked about me adding a production scaling param
17:19:43  <andythenorth> afaict, there was also a small cohort who want daylength to make travel times realistic
17:19:43  <arikover> Well I tried daylength because you can basically service an industry with fewer vehicles.
17:19:47  <andythenorth> but those people are weird
17:20:08  <andythenorth> arikover good, so I didn't imagine that case :)
17:20:37  <nielsm> have anyone made a half scale train set? :)
17:20:53  <andythenorth> so lower production rates, or bigger vehicles would both solve your desire arikover ?
17:20:55  <nielsm> everything is half size, except capacities and power
17:21:05  <nielsm> so you can have twice as long trains in the same number of tiles
17:21:06  <andythenorth> chibi chibi
17:21:32  <andythenorth> quite tempting
17:21:42  <nielsm> you could probably even just take the original scale sprites and put into the 2x scale graphics instead
17:21:44  <arikover> andythenorth: Well I guess. I also like time passing slower.
17:22:01  <nielsm> the annoying part would be making new rail and station graphics :P
17:22:09  <andythenorth> nielsm there's a capacity parameter for Iron Horse :P
17:22:14  <andythenorth> achieves same result, but not visually
17:22:52  <nielsm> part of my thought was that you should be able to send longer trains around without the trains being 4x the size of the industries on the map
17:23:11  <andythenorth> it has appeal
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17:24:52  <andythenorth> nielsm changing the Horse capacity parameter gives 4/8 vehicles with 30 tonnes capacity
17:24:59  <andythenorth> for 1960
17:25:06  <andythenorth> varies a bit by date
17:25:16  <andythenorth> 1.5* the default value
17:25:56  <arikover> andythenorth: I'm not a big fan of Daylength, mind you.
17:26:04  <andythenorth> hmm 1.33* the default, I checked the code
17:26:08  <nielsm> yeah you can do that, it just makes some rather chubby-looking trains :P
17:26:12  <andythenorth> arikover why not?
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17:26:16  <dP> nielsm, do sets of people who want realism and who can do content even intersect?
17:26:43  <andythenorth> dP me and pikka?
17:27:08  <arikover> andythenorth: I like it, but I'm not a hardcore fan.
17:27:56  <andythenorth> any particular things about it?
17:28:01  <dP> andythenorth, you want realism? o_O
17:28:12  <andythenorth> I've been told I'm obsessed with it
17:28:54  <nielsm> it looks to me more like you focus on gameplay progression with a sprinkle of belivability
17:29:07  <andythenorth> mostly I focus on drawing trains I like
17:29:09  <nielsm> +e, somewhere
17:29:15  <andythenorth> everything else is post-hoc rationalisation
17:29:16  <andythenorth> ret-con
17:29:35  <andythenorth> some of the trains I like drawing are fake
17:29:37  <andythenorth> some are real
17:33:47  <supermop_Home> what i want is probably not 'daylength'
17:34:08  <supermop_Home> also i don't find new trains come to quickly
17:34:23  <andythenorth> I find that it takes 30 game years to replace all the old trains
17:34:28  <supermop_Home> maybe if i played on huge maps i would,
17:34:31  <andythenorth> then new ones appear
17:34:54  <nielsm> well you should do like with mobile phones, only buy every second gen
17:35:26  <supermop_Home> but on maps similar to original size, i have no problem, or i even find myself waiting for new trains
17:35:55  <supermop_Home> my problem is probably somewhat related to production, but not uiformly
17:36:42  <andythenorth> I find early game, the Horse trains are nerfed
17:36:47  <andythenorth> so I want new ones sooner
17:36:57  <andythenorth> but after 1930, progression is much too fast
17:37:36  <nielsm> more different early trains
17:37:46  <nielsm> early steam engine development was wild and experimental
17:37:53  <andythenorth> I played some original OTTD baseset recently, the train progression is borderline bizarre
17:38:06  <andythenorth> there's no concept of roles, only more or less useless engines
17:38:09  <andythenorth> then 'bigger'
17:38:09  <supermop_Home> it's more that i often reach headway capacity of a line
17:38:22  <andythenorth> +1
17:38:37  <andythenorth> I have ideas for that in NARS Horse
17:38:45  <andythenorth> but I never chose a route to go
17:38:59  <andythenorth> if we accept short trains (unrealistic for US, but eh)
17:39:05  <supermop_Home> and can't fit in a mix of local and express, or freight
17:39:06  <andythenorth> then capacity could increase severely
17:39:23  <andythenorth> 40t could become 80t
17:39:34  <andythenorth> I also considered requiring a new railtype for the heavier trains
17:39:43  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon did something along those lines
17:40:13  <nielsm> heavy rail and high speed rail be separate?
17:40:43  <nielsm> heavy rail is limited to 160 km/h while high speed can't carry heavy freight due to axle load
17:41:06  <supermop_Home> for industries, idk if i actually consistently find production too high or too low
17:41:39  <dP> btw, speaking of old trains, it would be awesome to have a sane way of upgrading the rail type
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17:42:06  <dP> simplest solution would be an option to let old trains run on new rails, kinda like it is with elrail
17:42:08  <supermop_Home> sometimes its like, it only really makes sense to serve this once every 90 days, and that's sort of odd to plan around
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17:42:12  <andythenorth> supermop_Home are you specifically thinking of Steeltown?
17:42:18  <supermop_Home> yeah
17:42:22  <andythenorth> production ramps up horribly as new cargo flows come on stream
17:42:32  <supermop_Home> once everything is gung ho
17:42:35  <andythenorth> once you have 4 inputs the output grows fast
17:42:40  <andythenorth> and then down the chain
17:42:43  <supermop_Home> the production is huge
17:42:50  <supermop_Home> but its very deterministic
17:42:55  <andythenorth> but it tends to stabilise, unless you keep adding mines
17:43:10  <supermop_Home> and you are free to carry only like 60% if you want
17:43:27  <andythenorth> tempting as it is, I probably won't optimise vehicle progression for Steeltown
17:43:30  <andythenorth> it would be good though
17:43:57  <andythenorth> if I write a God Mode GS
17:44:03  <andythenorth> it could control both FIRS and the vehicles
17:44:06  <supermop_Home> in steel town i often find i really need ensp to make a raw material service make sense
17:44:18  <supermop_Home> but at gung ho its too much
17:44:23  <andythenorth> you can tone it down
17:44:26  <supermop_Home> so i have the gh level set lower
17:44:37  <andythenorth> 200% not 300% is more relaxing
17:45:24  <supermop_Home> i like steel town as it seems to work best for a modern urban economy
17:45:51  <supermop_Home> but quickly takes all capacity, so you need a duplicate passenger network
17:45:54  <andythenorth> yes
17:45:57  <andythenorth> realism!
17:46:29  <supermop_Home> personally idk if i am particularly interested in a north American horse
17:47:03  <supermop_Home> except perhaps as a 'what could have been' if they hadn't abandoned passenger service
17:47:17  <andythenorth>
17:47:25  <andythenorth> " During World War II 15% of America's steel making capacity crossed over the Hot Metal Bridge, up to 180 tons per hour."
17:47:35  <supermop_Home> the north American railroad i am most interested in is the subway....
17:47:55  <andythenorth> ha
17:48:05  <andythenorth> there's a newgrf for NA subways no?
17:48:17  <supermop_Home> idk?
17:48:52  <andythenorth>
17:49:05  <supermop_Home> not that i need it to be exactly prototypical
17:49:43  <supermop_Home> not a fan of the art style
17:50:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen
17:50:12  <supermop_Home> a horse style, genericized, foster-ized set would be nice
17:50:59  <supermop_Home> i don't need to choose between the Alstom, Bombardier, and Kawasaki equivalents for which 2010s train i'm going to buy
17:52:43  <supermop_Home> Iron Rat
17:54:29  <supermop_Home> andythenorth i still think a japan horse has a lot of potential
17:54:58  <andythenorth> it might yes
17:55:04  <andythenorth> bo-bo-bo
17:55:08  <supermop_Home> for the 1067mm vs SG difference, high volume commuter, niche freight
17:55:17  <andythenorth> monorail!
17:55:20  <supermop_Home> yeah
17:55:46  <supermop_Home> instead of Rail ELRL NG Metro
17:56:25  <supermop_Home> split the difference between metro and SG emu, and add monorail as the 'weird' gauge
17:56:46  <supermop_Home> NG ELNG ELRL Mono
17:57:01  <supermop_Home> for japan termite
17:58:13  <supermop_Home> idk if the old mockup list i made would still hold balanced vs current IH
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18:15:09  <supermop_Home> "Due to the imbalance of ironmaking and steelmaking facilities at the two plants, rail shipments of molten iron "hot metal" were sent from Campbell to Brier Hill from 1937 until 1979. "
18:16:36  <supermop_Home> "The company abruptly closed its Campbell Works and furloughed 5,000 workers on September 19, 1977,"
18:16:55  <supermop_Home> where did the molten iron com from those last 2 years?
18:19:38  <andythenorth> maybe they kept a stockpile
18:19:47  <andythenorth> in giant vacuum flasks
18:21:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
18:21:19  <frosch123> i think the vacuum is not important if the flask is large enough
18:22:01  <supermop_Home> maybe it took 2 years for the furnace to cool down
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18:56:47  <andythenorth> non-linear gaps between generations?
18:58:21  <nielsm> what might be interesting also: lots of different engines made available, but production of them stops early if nobody builds them
19:00:27  <nielsm> but somthing like from 1850 to 1920 a new steam engine design comes every 5 to 10 years, some of them very specialized
19:00:44  <nielsm> and then things settle down into more clear roles and slower development
19:04:18  <nielsm> and some of those early designs get obsoleted fast so you may not use all of them, depending on when you're building new routes versus expanding existing
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19:27:50  <frosch123> hmm, there are some NOT_REACHED in the script api
19:28:13  <frosch123> i guess ais can force crash ottd :p
19:28:24  <LordAro> :<
19:28:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/…
19:37:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/…
19:57:23  <Corns[m]> how can i tell which game settings can be changed during multiplayer?
19:57:47  <Corns[m]> e.g. yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol can be changed but not airspeed factor
19:58:55  *** Corns[m] is now known as CornsMcGowan[m]
19:59:58  <andythenorth> so anyone fancy writing a GS? :P
20:00:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/…
20:00:29  <andythenorth> oh this happened :P
20:00:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker frosch123 :P
20:01:40  <CornsMcGowan[m]> inb4 bananas moves domain
20:01:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/…
20:03:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: i am just exploring writing a new gs
20:04:16  <frosch123> finally got a good idea
20:05:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: as new dictator over grf hosting, will you review them for quality?
20:05:53  <supermop_Home> ugh i always start in 1990 like a year before the 135 freight wagons come
20:06:09  <dP> andythenorth,
20:06:09  <CornsMcGowan[m]> "this new industry turns people into-"
20:06:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]>  * "this new industry turns passengers into-"
20:07:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: why does the hotel accept pax twice?
20:08:43  <dP> I don't want to write GS but I may do a server :p
20:08:54  * dP just hopes I won't have to fork firs
20:09:19  <andythenorth> dP thanks for 404 report :)
20:09:24  <andythenorth> I know cause, will fix
20:15:53  <andythenorth> frosch123 accepts and produces I guess
20:15:57  <andythenorth> that needs fixed
20:19:51  <andythenorth> frosch123 the idea is a secret? :)
20:21:00  <frosch123> sure
20:22:19  <frosch123> but you know, that i focus on weird track setups
20:22:35  <frosch123> it won't be a busybee
20:23:00  <frosch123> and definitely no city builder
20:23:35  <frosch123> also no military content
20:23:45  <andythenorth> is it this?
20:23:47  <andythenorth> :P
20:23:51  <frosch123> can i make more obvious statements?
20:24:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: i certainly have to consider infinite score exploits
20:24:45  <andythenorth>
20:25:41  <frosch123> i won't write docs. gh releases are good enough
20:25:43  <andythenorth> once TrueBrain has registered our stichting we could get our own TLDs?
20:25:47  <andythenorth> .grf
20:25:47  <frosch123> probably same for george
20:25:48  <andythenorth> .gs
20:25:52  <andythenorth> .fail
20:26:24  <frosch123> .andy
20:28:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: .gs is a valid country tld
20:28:11  <andythenorth> o_O
20:30:05  <frosch123> though my browser does not trust the certificate of their *offical* issuer
20:30:25  <frosch123> how many people live on the sandwich islands?
20:30:40  <frosch123> 30...
20:30:48  <frosch123> 30 people have their own tld?
20:34:36  <andythenorth> nice
20:34:55  <andythenorth> .nice
20:35:43  <andythenorth> my worlds never look like this
20:36:06  <supermop_Home> the question is rather, why do 30 people live on the south sandwich islands
20:36:42  <frosch123> supermop_Home: apparently there is a research laboratory
20:37:12  <supermop_Home> less 'live there' and more 'have to be there for work' i guess
20:38:30  <andythenorth> hmm did we ever find out why windowshading the train window increases fps?
20:38:32  * andythenorth looks
20:41:14  <andythenorth>
20:41:57  <andythenorth> oh video is on devzone, so no longer works
20:42:49  <andythenorth> nvm
20:54:08  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man
20:54:17  <CornsMcGowan[m]> pathfinding for two or more simultaneous rails is tricky
20:54:49  <frosch123> is that the reason monorail was invented?
20:54:53  <CornsMcGowan[m]> how does choo choo do it with just the A* library?
20:54:58  <CornsMcGowan[m]> HAHA
20:55:41  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i implemented a tool similar to factorio's railplanner, only works for one track at the moment
20:57:13  <CornsMcGowan[m]>
20:57:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i'm thinking about adding an option to build two simultaneous tracks but the problem becomes much more complicated
21:01:04  <nielsm> cheap approach: treat the map as 2x2 tile cells and pathfind between those
21:01:19  <nielsm> at least I think that can work
21:01:46  <frosch123> CornsMcGowan[m]: <- there is a scientific paper on that problem
21:01:51  <frosch123> though i did not read it
21:01:55  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oo
21:02:06  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i've been reading through this guy's papers
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21:02:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> he's been publishing a lot of multi-agent pathfinding papers, mostly for amazon robotic warehouse stuff it seems
21:02:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i'll read the trAIns paper ty :)
21:03:08  <frosch123> multi-agent stuff usually is about pathfinding with limited knowledge
21:04:27  <nielsm> superficially multi-agent sounds like pathfinding in an environment where agents need to get around independently on potentially intersecting routes, with limited or no cooperation
21:04:30  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh? i thought the domain space would be 100% known (in at least the robot warehouse scenario)
21:05:39  <nielsm> yeah the issue is that if you want them to have 100% knowledge of every agent's paths you'd get lots of downtime with synchronisation and maybe pointless waiting, and instead it might be better to take a best guess even if it might conflict with someone else
21:08:02  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm i see
21:08:09  <nielsm> another possible approach for parallel rail tracks: have higher cost for tiles that don't have similar sloped (or flat) land next by, so you for the most part find a route for one track that will have space for the second next by
21:08:39  <nielsm> then build the second track in segments along the first track, and if a segment can't build next by try to find a separate route for that segment
21:08:39  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh this article seems to imply some central computer does the calc and then assigns paths to each agent, rather than each agent running its own algorithm
21:08:44  <nielsm> and you might need some backtracking then
21:10:24  <supermop_Home> andythenorth small ore hoppers are cheaper per ton that medium or large
21:10:45  <supermop_Home> not complaining really as i like the look of the small ones
21:11:31  <CornsMcGowan[m]> that could work
21:11:33  <b_jonas> supermop_Home: don't they also weigh more or longer?
21:11:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> sounds like a lot of backtracking though
21:11:45  <b_jonas> because those can metter when you put them on a train
21:11:50  <dP> just give the second track bonus for going along the first one
21:12:02  <nielsm> that's also a possibility
21:12:06  <andythenorth> supermop_Home sounds like a bug, the costs are just done with maths * unit length
21:12:29  <nielsm> and be careful what happens if the second track ends up on the wrong side of the first :P
21:12:49  <supermop_Home> the difference is on the order of -
21:13:26  <supermop_Home> enough you'd only notice if you were just checking to see if you'd be penalized for using the cuter small hoppers...
21:13:56  <andythenorth> it's about 4.4 / ton vs 4.5 / ton?
21:14:12  <andythenorth> just be rounding issues
21:14:24  <supermop_Home> for the 135 kmh generation,
21:14:35  <nielsm> anyway gn
21:14:44  <CornsMcGowan[m]> omg trAIns rolls their own priority queue implementation
21:14:47  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wild
21:14:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> gn :)
21:14:49  <supermop_Home> based on small hopper you'd expect a long hopper to be 1944 quid
21:14:53  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ty for the tips
21:15:02  <supermop_Home> but its 1957
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21:15:48  <andythenorth> yeah rounding issues :)
21:16:00  <supermop_Home> medium you'd expect to be 1458, but its 1464
21:18:16  <CornsMcGowan[m]> smol hopper can navigate tighter turns
21:18:23  <supermop_Home> haha
21:18:27  <CornsMcGowan[m]> or at least penalised less on tight turns
21:18:41  <CornsMcGowan[m]> given curve speed limit is determined by wagon count between turns
21:18:54  <supermop_Home> andy add high speed turn bonus to small ore hoppers?
21:19:05  <supermop_Home> for high speed ore trains?
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21:23:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i believe its not necessary
21:24:00  <CornsMcGowan[m]> or immersive :^) shorter wagons are more unstable IRL i thinkh
21:24:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hence why theres no 150kph variant in iron horse
21:24:41  <supermop_Home> open gangway ore hopper:
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21:25:31  <supermop_Home> one continuous hopper made of 10 hopper segments?
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21:27:20  <andythenorth> I considered the SDT
21:28:53  <supermop_Home> do they use something like this for ballast?
21:29:02  <andythenorth> yes
21:29:37  <andythenorth> oh right by my house :P
21:33:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> your poor house
21:33:51  <CornsMcGowan[m]> must be shaking itself to bits over time lmao
21:34:35  <supermop_Home> andy lovely
21:34:48  <supermop_Home> the railfreight guards van in there is 100
21:34:55  <andythenorth> I have a OO version of that engine
21:35:03  <andythenorth> it is nuts, I just found it has opening cab doors
21:35:13  <andythenorth> this is not my childhood version :P
21:35:19  <supermop_Home> was looking for railfreight sectors N 47s the other day
21:35:36  <supermop_Home> couldn't find much for sale
21:35:46  <andythenorth> think my brother had one 20 years ago :P
21:35:50  <andythenorth> doesn't help much
21:36:16  <andythenorth> I now have 4 foot by 6 foot of train set
21:36:26  <andythenorth> and 10 foot by 10 foot by 3 foot of stored trains
21:36:30  <andythenorth> oof
21:36:44  <andythenorth> many boxes
21:37:51  <andythenorth> it was nice to have packages arrive during lockdown
21:37:57  <andythenorth> but enough
21:38:52  <supermop_Home> 300 cubic feet of trains is a lot?
21:40:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> damn omg
21:40:18  <CornsMcGowan[m]> do u have any layouts we can see
21:40:26  <andythenorth> it's just an oval
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21:40:39  <andythenorth> 2 tracks
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21:45:26  <supermop_Home> last night i had the insane idea to try to use Z track to model 1067mm gauge at N scale
21:46:41  <supermop_Home> and T to model some <2' gauge
21:47:18  <andythenorth> that probably has a name?
21:48:01  <andythenorth> Nn3
21:49:30  <supermop_Home> unfortunately t is too small to model 1067 at Z scall
21:49:32  <supermop_Home> scale
21:50:07  <supermop_Home> and i am not crazy enough yet to scratch build 4.85mm track
21:50:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen
21:50:39  <supermop_Home> N and Z track does look super broad under Japanese body shells
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21:52:13  <supermop_Home> model this with the nursery railway:
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21:56:05  <andythenorth> o_O
21:56:09  <andythenorth> oof I should sleep
21:56:13  <andythenorth> tomorrow appears soon
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22:12:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i forgot: whats the length of diagonal rail vs orthogonal rails?
22:12:52  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i remember somewhere mentioning the subunit counts for them being not quite 1:sqrt(2)
22:15:24  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], 128 vs 196 iirc
22:16:00  <dP> *192
22:16:32  <CornsMcGowan[m]> tyty :)
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22:19:44  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], just checked, in subunits it's 192 for diagonal piece and 256 for orthogonal
22:20:06  <CornsMcGowan[m]> o sweet
22:20:20  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i initially thought 192 orthogonal and 128 diagonal
22:22:35  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], nah, that was from profit calculator, it uses different units
22:22:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ohh
22:23:10  <CornsMcGowan[m]> cm profit calc is a blessing
22:30:51  <b_jonas> this is strange, it's as if control-clicking the location button of a train window to follow the train on the main view doesn't work when I'm zoomed out to 50%. it shows the location of the train once but doesn't keep following.
22:33:58  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], or mb it is 128 and 192, it's confusing as fuck in openttd code
22:34:13  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], profit calc uses const tile_len = this.is_diagonal ? 128 : 192;
22:34:24  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], I assume I understood why when I wrote that xD
22:37:39  <CornsMcGowan[m]> dP: hecc that is indeed confusing
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22:40:37  <dP> like wtf, there is UpdateSpeed that returns distance and GetAdvanceDistance that returns speed
22:40:54  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ????
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23:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, obviously GetAdvanceDistance would get the Distance that should be Advanced...
23:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause> given a time unit of 1 tick, that conversion can be a noop
23:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> (although it's probably more like 1/n tick, as the function will get called n times per tick)
23:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> (where n varies by vehicle type)
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23:37:19  <dP> Eddi|zuHause, actually I was wrong, it returns logical track length
23:37:51  <dP> Eddi|zuHause, so it is distance but not advance
23:38:17  <dP> Eddi|zuHause, but yeah, with 1 tick time frame speed is distance and distance is speed %)
23:41:22  <Eddi|zuHause> dP: there's a field of physics where they just set the speed of light (and some other constants) to 1 and do away with all the units, then E=m and some other simplifications happen
23:47:04  <dP> I finally remembered why it was 128:192, because 1 diagonal piece is 8 subtile steps, so it's 256 * 8 : 192 * 16

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