Log for #openttd on 6th July 2020:
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03:36:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Moth-Tolias commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder
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06:33:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder
06:52:15  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hello
06:52:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> could somebody unstale please
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09:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just push to it to unstale?
09:18:25  <andythenorth> this auto body plant is awesome
09:18:34  <andythenorth> I can very definitely use that as inspiration
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10:29:58  <Timberwolf> Fancy working in the Longbridge Conveyor Bridge? ;)
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11:03:23  <andythenorth> Timberwolf how *do* you sprite so fast also?
11:03:41  <andythenorth> for Iron Horse 2 I was getting 2 trains done per calendar day (averaged)
11:03:48  <andythenorth> they're 8bpp and mostly copy-paste :P
11:05:48  <Timberwolf> Cheating.
11:06:00  <andythenorth> voxels?
11:06:07  <Timberwolf> I build everything in MagicaVoxel, then I have a bunch of stuff which renders them to sprites.
11:06:33  <Timberwolf> It does have some quality issues and the 8bpp 1x stuff is definitely way worse than hand-drawn.
11:06:37  <andythenorth> makes sense
11:06:46  <andythenorth> the 2x stuff looks great though
11:06:54  <Timberwolf> Thanks :)
11:07:03  <andythenorth> at 8bpp, I'm not really drawing the train, I'm drawing an impression of the train
11:07:14  <andythenorth> 1x / 8bpp /s
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11:07:27  <Timberwolf> I have been wondering how many outputs I'd need to correct manually to train a neural net to do it.
11:08:16  <andythenorth> from source images?
11:08:28  <Timberwolf> Not quite that ambitious :)
11:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there's some fun AI research papers on which subset of images you need to show to a human to tell the AI they're good/bad
11:08:57  <andythenorth> afaik, we're pretty good now at getting 3D shapes from photos?
11:09:03  <Timberwolf> Just taking the voxel renderer output and correcting things like company colours bleeding into the wrong place, etc.
11:09:07  <andythenorth> I don't know that for a fact mind :P
11:09:26  <andythenorth> you should teach it the common artefacts of a train gestalt
11:09:31  <andythenorth> windows, wheels, doors etc
11:09:32  <andythenorth> :P
11:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the point of the exercise is to find "dead end" AI behaviours where they think they figured it out, but it's some pathologic case that happens to be true for only a small subset of the problem
11:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> say, if you wan to train an AI to flip a pancake in a pan. and you divide that into the first problem of "just balance the pan so the pancake stays off the floor as long as possible. the AI might decide that the optimal strategy is to fling it as high as possible, as that maximises the time it takes to hit the floor
11:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if you take sporadic screenshots of the AI doing its thing, and ask a human to judge whether the thing looks good or not, you can catch such "wrong" paths
11:36:53  <CornsMcGowan[m]> Eddi|zuHause: ive been pushing commits but it still has stale tag
11:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like the tag has any real meaning anyway
11:38:21  <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: it's a tag
11:38:26  <LordAro> there's nothing automatic about it
11:40:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> andythenorth: Yeah photogrammetry works really well nowadays, but needs much higher resolutions than x1 sprites
11:40:50  <CornsMcGowan[m]> LordAro: ah i see
11:44:25  <CornsMcGowan[m]> re: bridges over bridges, is there any value that corresponds to the height of the upper part of the bridge? eg viaducts are short, girder is taller, suspension bridge is very tall
11:44:55  <LordAro> nope
11:45:02  <CornsMcGowan[m]> heck
11:45:34  <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to bake some in i guess
12:09:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP)
12:32:20  <andythenorth> lol
12:32:23  <andythenorth> that happened then :)
12:33:13  <LordAro> :D
12:35:04  <andythenorth> so good
12:35:08  <andythenorth> haven't tried it in game
12:41:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP)
12:42:51  <andythenorth> can approve? o_O
12:47:21  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the go with reviving closed PRs?
12:47:34  <CornsMcGowan[m]> e.g. i'm interested in this feature being pushed to trunk
12:48:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> if aqueducts are indeed similar to tunnels then i think they should exhibit the same terraforming behaviours
12:48:15  <andythenorth> depends if it was closed as rejected, or closed due to the draining away of interest
12:48:24  <andythenorth> PRs for the second case can be re-opened
12:48:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]> closed from lack of interest it seems
12:48:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah okay
12:48:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i will put my case forwards
12:48:35  <andythenorth> but it might well be cleaner to do do another new PR
12:49:03  <andythenorth> yeah I'd be prepared to re-open that one
12:49:30  <andythenorth> but if your solution isn't as per the original title, you might just want a new one
12:50:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts
12:55:23  <andythenorth> ok I can't actually re-open it, button is disabled in GH
12:55:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh lmao
12:55:33  <andythenorth> probably because the underlying branch has changed
12:56:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts
12:56:09  <CornsMcGowan[m]> seems to be just a single commit
13:05:03  <CornsMcGowan[m]> last time i asked lordaro to reopen a PR, i needed to push a new commit to it first
13:05:07  <CornsMcGowan[m]> that might be what's needed
13:05:19  <LordAro> you needed to push the *original* commit to it
13:05:28  <LordAro> if a branch has been force pushed to, it can't be reopened
13:05:40  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh?
13:05:40  <LordAro> (as far as github is concerned it's a new branch)
13:05:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i see
13:08:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man
13:08:57  <CornsMcGowan[m]> samuxarick PR'ed like a billion features/changes/fixes
13:09:54  <andythenorth> yes
13:09:59  <andythenorth> quite a lot got closed
13:10:27  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah i don't see a single one accepted
13:10:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> unlucky :c
13:10:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Still hoping for someone to approve #150, then we can release without known bugs :p
13:12:17  <CornsMcGowan[m]> actually i have no way of telling if the branch PR was accepted
13:13:22  <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: samu is quite good at finding issues, not so good at fixing them
13:13:36  <LordAro> not in the "correct" way, anyway
13:13:47  <LordAro> tends to miss the bigger picture
13:13:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh?
13:14:21  <FLHerne> ISTR one or two of those did get merged, and turned out to cause regressions...
13:14:46  <LordAro> there's been a few
13:15:02  <LordAro> merged
13:25:12  <milek7> @seen Samu
13:25:12  <DorpsGek> milek7: Samu was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Samu> '.gitignore'
13:25:37  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats a regression in this context
13:25:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh nvm just googled it
13:25:48  <LordAro> other bugs
13:26:03  <CornsMcGowan[m]> so its a bug fix that causes more bugs
13:26:11  <LordAro> usually
13:26:13  <CornsMcGowan[m]> or bugs caused by the introduction of a bug fix
13:26:21  <LordAro> yeah
13:26:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see
13:26:30  <LordAro> (we also have the regression AI tests)
13:26:44  <LordAro> which try to test for other unforeseen changes)
13:27:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> spooky
13:29:23  <andythenorth> "#1 cause of software bugs is software changes"
13:29:31  * andythenorth abuses a google SRE statistic a bit
13:29:52  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm
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13:34:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to find that one line that enables bridges over bridges
13:36:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also: have underground canals ever been considered?
13:37:03  <andythenorth> yes
13:37:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
13:37:13  <CornsMcGowan[m]> rejected
13:37:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ?
13:37:15  <andythenorth> you mean tunnels?
13:37:16  <andythenorth>
13:37:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah tunnels
13:37:25  <CornsMcGowan[m]> had a brainfart :p
13:37:33  <andythenorth> visual clipping issue with most ships
13:37:40  <LordAro> can't make it work without horrendous clip-
13:37:41  <andythenorth> but then again
13:37:50  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i see
13:37:54  <andythenorth> tyler has just done a canal boats grf
13:37:58  <andythenorth> not sure if it's NRT or not
13:38:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh the little tiny boats
13:38:11  <andythenorth> might be roads
13:38:27  <andythenorth>
13:39:09  <andythenorth> hmm
13:39:21  <andythenorth> if boats are done as road vehicles, they can be articulated
13:39:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> boats as road vehicles...
13:39:37  <andythenorth> WWAY
13:39:42  <andythenorth> it's an NRT grf
13:39:51  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wowee
13:40:02  <andythenorth> there's also WETrail for ships as trains
13:40:38  <andythenorth> using the canal cheat, they can be routed 'across' water
13:40:51  <andythenorth> cheat / hax /s
13:42:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> canal cheat :o
13:43:53  <andythenorth> I guess it's not really a cheat, just an artefact
13:44:15  <CornsMcGowan[m]> are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid
13:56:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> <CornsMcGowan[m] "time to find that one line that "> found it
13:56:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> lets see how glitchy this looks
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14:00:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> nvm failed an assert when i tried to build
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14:30:38  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh so some info about bridges is stored in the map data
14:30:58  <CornsMcGowan[m]> but is designed such that only one bridge can exist per tile
14:32:33  <LordAro> you're saying the system wasn't designed for more than one bridge?
14:32:35  <LordAro> i am SHOCKED
14:32:41  <CornsMcGowan[m]> lmao
14:32:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> the game was rigged from the start
14:33:59  <CornsMcGowan[m]> how are tunnels stored, then
14:34:15  <LordAro> much the same, i belive
14:34:23  <LordAro> they're both fairly magic about it
14:35:31  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i wonder if tunnels over tunnels were permitted in TTD
14:36:11  <LordAro> they're permitted in OTTD, if you turn the cheat on
14:36:28  <LordAro> hmm, i guess not the same then
14:37:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i just mean like, at different height (z?) levels
14:38:19  <LordAro> good question
14:39:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> tunnel_map.h shows tunnels are stored in m5, m6, m8 i think
14:39:46  <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes
14:40:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> FLHerne: re: tunnels over tunels in TTD?
14:40:26  <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes
14:40:45  <FLHerne> Sorry, didn't scroll all the way down - re > are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid?
14:40:52  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah sweet
14:41:05  <FLHerne> (which is why the ship pathfinder is so damn slow)
14:41:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man
14:42:00  <CornsMcGowan[m]> now i want to see the YAPF code
14:42:12  <LordAro> there be dragons
14:42:12  <CornsMcGowan[m]> but the paths are cached now right
14:42:25  <LordAro> yeah
14:42:33  <LordAro> (those come with a different set of problems, of course)
14:45:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see
14:46:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> okay i'm not focused enough to decipher yapf_ship.cpp
14:46:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> even though i've implemented A* before
14:47:58  <LordAro> it's ok, A* isn't in there
14:48:12  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wait
14:48:13  <LordAro> i guarantee it's like no other A* you've seen before
14:48:19  <CornsMcGowan[m]> it's non-heuristic?
14:48:55  <LordAro> i imagine ships probably use manhatten distance
14:49:58  <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true
14:50:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh shouldn't they use DistanceMax instead
14:52:12  <LordAro> (disclaimer: i know very little about YAPF, other than it uses A* internally *somewhere*, and that it's template hell)
14:52:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
14:52:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ive heard of C++ templates before
14:52:47  <CornsMcGowan[m]> never learnt about them
14:54:21  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also yeah it uses a heuristic, tries to get as close as possible to the uh
14:55:38  <CornsMcGowan[m]> imo its needlessly accurate
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14:59:47  <trooper> hi
15:00:22  <trooper> is it ok not to release sources with grf under GPLv2?
15:00:40  <andythenorth> on request, or distributed with the grf?
15:01:17  <andythenorth> FSF has FAQs about this
15:01:23  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh do you mean release grf as GPLv2 and then withhold the source?
15:02:04  <trooper> yes
15:02:11  <trooper> I asked for sources on the forum
15:02:31  <trooper> but people there say that it is ok not to release them
15:02:53  <LordAro> you don't technically have to actively release them, but you must provide them when requested
15:03:14  <andythenorth> the FAQs are all here
15:03:16  <andythenorth> search 'source'
15:03:26  <andythenorth> it's mostly clear
15:03:31  <andythenorth> there is one ambiguity
15:03:35  <trooper>
15:03:44  <andythenorth> all of the examples are about modifications to GPL licensed works
15:03:50  <nielsm> basically you have to at least include instructions on how to obtain the source and ensure anyone who wants the source can get it
15:04:01  <andythenorth> I didn't find anything about original authors being obliged to provide sources
15:04:05  <andythenorth> I'm sure that's covered somewhere
15:04:09  <trooper> can I ask them to provide sources of the set?
15:04:14  <andythenorth> you can and you did
15:04:57  <trooper> all the licencing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
15:05:03  <trooper> all the licensing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
15:06:19  <LordAro> well that's a full blown license dispute now
15:06:28  <nielsm> if they claim to be releasing the work under GPLv2 but refuse to give you the complete sources then they are not honouring their own license
15:06:57  <nielsm> they basically offered you the usage rights under false pretense
15:07:01  <andythenorth> oh there was more argument in the thread?
15:07:03  <andythenorth> I missed that
15:07:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: i just kept scrolling
15:07:30  <LordAro> dunno if there's anything previous
15:07:31  <trooper> check the last page
15:07:32  <andythenorth> I read it this morning, it has changed :P
15:08:14  <LordAro> i don't know if an author can retroactively change the license of something
15:08:16  <LordAro> i would guess not
15:08:21  <trooper> I'm just new to the community, I started my server about a week ago
15:08:50  <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly, they've invalidly licensed as GPL v2
15:08:55  <trooper> I never thought that it is legal not to release the sources covered by GPL
15:09:16  <trooper> I don't know
15:09:26  <trooper> they just don't provide sources by request
15:09:31  <andythenorth> if it was a valid GPL v2 license they would need to provide the sources
15:09:38  <andythenorth> but the GPL v2 is invalid
15:09:48  <andythenorth> as they don't have copyright permissions to apply GPL v2
15:09:58  <andythenorth> GPL is based on copyright, even though it's copyleft
15:10:00  <trooper> so do you mean that all licensing on banana is a bullshit?
15:10:08  <andythenorth> that is a big claim to be honest
15:10:17  <andythenorth> I don't understand how you escalate to that statement
15:10:25  <trooper> wait
15:10:31  <trooper> I just asked for a source
15:10:42  <trooper> I don't want to use it just examine
15:11:01  <nielsm> if they claim the GRF is GPLv2 licensed then you are in your right to demand the sources
15:11:07  <trooper> banana site says the set is licensed under GPLv2
15:11:17  <andythenorth> their license sounds like it's illegal
15:11:26  <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them
15:11:30  <andythenorth> that's not how it works
15:11:30  <trooper> community says that I can't ask for the sources
15:11:43  <trooper> I mean on that forum
15:11:44  <trooper> not here
15:11:46  <andythenorth> don't confuse 'community' with one dude in a thread
15:11:53  <andythenorth> that's such a fallacy
15:12:03  <trooper> ya ok
15:12:05  <andythenorth> dude / dudette / whatever / person
15:12:10  <nielsm> <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them  <-- but let's not consider whether reverse-engineering a commercial product is stealing sources
15:12:30  <andythenorth> 'apparently it's ok in Germany' or something nielsm
15:12:40  <andythenorth> but anyway, distractions :P
15:12:52  <andythenorth> it looks to me like CZ set have made a silly mistake
15:13:53  <trooper> lol I just wanted to translate the road set and I don't wont to dig into nfo....
15:14:17  <nielsm> are you turning this into an X/Y problem now? :)
15:14:33  <nielsm> if you want to translate then start out by offering that instead of asking for sources
15:15:35  <trooper> I don't want to wait for them to release a new version I'll do a hot fix in a new grw and send them a patch
15:15:43  <trooper> that is a usual way for opensource
15:16:13  <trooper> I did that for xUSSR set
15:17:19  <trooper> like this
15:17:47  <trooper> not sure why they refuse to provide nml
15:18:54  <glx> you can always use grfcodec to get NFO from GRF, but it's harder to read
15:19:31  <trooper> yep I did that and yes it is harder to read and I can't send them a patch
15:36:26  <Timberwolf> I'm never quite sure what you class as "source code" for a grf. In theory could you comply just by providing NML/NFO and PNG files?
15:37:43  <nielsm> if the development of the art involves 3D models that get rendered, and are not manually edited after rendering, then the 3D models would be the source
15:38:57  <nielsm> but GPL is very focused on software source code and is difficult to apply to other things
15:39:24  <Timberwolf> I think if you got as far as court you'd end up with a lot of arguining about 'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.'
15:39:47  <nielsm> yeah
15:44:54  <trooper> at least it is the code they send to nml compiler
15:46:45  <andythenorth> the source is what is reasonably needed to build the project in a sensible workflow
15:46:55  <andythenorth> because GPL doesn't cover art assets, it would be a bunfight about those
15:47:14  <andythenorth> we've discussed it before, and 3D models would seem to be in scope
15:48:01  <andythenorth> but if those 3D models are on an incompatible public license (e.g. Creative Commons), there would be some caveats
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15:53:08  <trooper> they just refuse to provide any source even just sprites + nml
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15:59:03  <andythenorth> I have replied in the thread, this will get resolved
15:59:06  <andythenorth> one way or the other
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16:04:25  <trooper> ya I can't force them to release the sources so they will just disappear for a while...
16:05:48  <nielsm> we should add a way for ottd to load external language files for grf's
16:05:59  <nielsm> somehow
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16:08:47  <b_jonas> 1395 tons of oil? I didn't know oil well production can go so high
16:11:41  <milek7> some people don't subscribe to spirit of opensource
16:11:43  <milek7> there's so much drama and wars generated about who copied what, permissions, etc.. :(
16:11:53  <milek7> (not talking about ottd specifically)
16:13:16  <milek7> trooper: most likely it never was GPL
16:13:24  <milek7> just incorrect annotation
16:15:01  <b_jonas> but the extra zeroes always make it look bigger than it is
16:17:12  <trooper> milek7 hope they will not charge $$$ for using their GRF on my server
16:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> trooper: thing is, if a thing is not legal, doesn't prevent anyone from doing it anyway
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16:22:15  <trooper> ya I know I know I'll just decompile their sources
16:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> like the dude who's in charge of the police in our country, stopped a study about racial profiling because: "there can't be racial profiling because our rules of conduct forbid racial profiling"
16:23:27  <trooper> ya who cares about all these licensing bullshit
16:23:38  <trooper> just take what you can and use
16:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> well, people should care about it, but a bunch of them don't take it as seriously as they should
16:29:13  <andythenorth> nielsm +1 to external files
16:29:28  <andythenorth> I'm not sure I ever want random language translation PRs arriving on my machine again
16:29:38  <andythenorth> it's just one extra thing to be concerned about
16:29:52  <andythenorth> I'd rather see translations provided elsewhere
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16:35:13  <b_jonas> I'm adding second stops in some cities to my vac train lines to collect more passengers
16:41:01  <andythenorth> trooper I can't be arsed with the forum thread, as it will just descend into nitpick madness....
16:41:17  <andythenorth> you can't make a valid GPL claim against an invalid GPL license
16:41:52  <andythenorth> if they 'licensed' illegally, the GPL is not in effect
16:45:40  <trooper> what is in effect then?
16:45:54  <trooper> can I use their GRF on my server?
16:46:00  <andythenorth> it's complete shambles
16:46:01  <trooper> or they will ask me to pay them
16:46:04  <trooper> ?
16:46:19  <trooper> they include GPL with GRF what does this mean?
16:46:32  <andythenorth> in this case, nothing, if what they say is true
16:47:11  <andythenorth> it should not be distributed as GPL if it's not valid GPL
16:47:16  <trooper> what is more true a licence.txt next to grf in a tar archive or "someone" words on the tt-forum?
16:48:21  <andythenorth> I understand the question, but it's not a useful question
16:49:13  <andythenorth> GPL is based on licence.txt being trustworthy
16:49:22  <andythenorth> but it cannot enforce that license.txt is legal
16:49:40  <andythenorth> simply adding license.txt doesn't make a thing valid GPL, that would be woo
16:50:02  <trooper> tey already signed BANANA TOS
16:50:26  <trooper> where they claim that they own all sources
16:50:54  <trooper> are you trying to say that licenses mean nothing and I can just ignore them?
16:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frankly, if they don't have a valid license, bananas should just remove their grf and be done with it
16:51:59  <andythenorth> are you wilfully misunderstanding trooper ?
16:52:05  <andythenorth> or is it lost in translation?
16:52:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I am minded the same way
16:52:44  <andythenorth> I don't know about all the bollocks around not breaking precious savegames
16:52:55  <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
16:52:57  <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
16:53:05  <andythenorth> TrueBrain if a grf claims to be GPL but isn't, is that a bananas takedown y|n? (sorry)
16:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't matter if they couldn't license it gpl in the first place, or violated gpl by not responding to a source code request properly (and thus voiding the GPL)
16:53:33  <andythenorth> if we're distributing illegal content, we can be DMCAed
16:53:34  <andythenorth> that's bad
16:53:47  <andythenorth> it's a pain in the arse and creates admin work
16:53:57  *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:02:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> fixed the jgrpp compile problem
17:02:08  <CornsMcGowan[m]> with newgrf_version being different
17:02:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]> by..hand editing the value in rev.cpp
17:02:59  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
17:05:01  <Borg> b_jonas: smooth economy on?
17:05:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yes
17:08:02  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
17:13:24  <dP> if I understand gpl correctly it's illegal to distribute stuff that has no available sources
17:13:40  <dP> more interesting problem is that it probably applies to half of bananas content xD
17:13:54  <andythenorth> it's not illegal to do that
17:14:06  <dP> andythenorth, "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code"
17:14:25  <andythenorth> yeah, actually I think you're right
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17:15:39  <dP> andythenorth, that's kind of the whole point of copyleft :p
17:20:55  <trooper> ahaha lol
17:21:02  <trooper> I can't beleve my eyes
17:21:06  <b_jonas> Borg: yes, smooth economy changes is on
17:21:41  <trooper> they say  You sound like we are OBLIGED to post our sources like it was MANDATORY. Quick news - we are not.
17:21:42  <andythenorth> dP what does 'has no available' mean to you?
17:21:56  <trooper> GPL Opensource ahahahaaaa muhahahah
17:22:11  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that question is difficult to answer without context; do you perceive it as not being GPL or is it clear that it violated? :)
17:22:40  <trooper> LICENCE.txt is included in tar and can be opened ingame
17:22:58  <dP> andythenorth, well, whatever it means in gpl, it allows to provide it by request iirc but I that even if you find authors for many old grf they could still find those sources xD
17:23:36  <dP> * I doubt
17:24:07  <dP> also bananas kinda have to "make sure" whatever that means :p
17:24:11  <TrueBrain> if you as author no longer have the source of GPL code, there isn't really any issue ;)
17:24:25  <TrueBrain> GPL is about if I take your source, modify it, I have to be able to hand over the source upon request
17:24:30  <andythenorth> dP do we modify the source?
17:24:40  <andythenorth> sorry, the work
17:24:42  <andythenorth> we don't modify
17:24:48  <andythenorth> (as bananas)
17:25:39  <TrueBrain> but andythenorth , why are you bring this up anyway? License discussions often only lead to weird discussions with no end, as everyone is a lawyer ;)
17:26:00  <dP> TrueBrain, well I cited gpl v2 few messages earlier, distributor of binaries have to make sure sources are available.
17:26:16  <TrueBrain> dP: and who can challenge if they don't? :D
17:26:19  <dP> TrueBrain, it may not be a real issue in case of lost source but still a violation of gpl if you ask me :p
17:26:39  <TrueBrain> violation a license the owner of that license doesn't care about, is a bit of a mute argument ;)
17:27:35  <trooper>
17:27:43  <TrueBrain> I wonder what a court will say about it ... "JUDGE! I want that I pay myself 20,000 euro in fines! This is not acceptable that I violated my own license!" :D
17:29:17  <TrueBrain> but as mention, all I saw was andythenorth walk to a firepit, put on some food, a jerrycan of gasoline, lit it, and walked away in silent :)
17:29:55  * Timberwolf is getting lost in the wormhole of autolitigation cases.
17:30:58  <Timberwolf> Looks like they generally get thrown out :)
17:31:18  <trooper> banana and ff-forum is really in a bad situation as they "distribute" illegal content
17:31:56  <dP> TrueBrain, well, what start of this drama is here:
17:32:08  <TrueBrain> trooper: is that a statement, or a question?
17:32:14  <dP> TrueBrain, author of grf licensed under gpl v2 admitted the can't share sources
17:32:30  <TrueBrain> trooper: as be VERY careful, there is a HUGE difference between the license and the right to distribute
17:32:54  <TrueBrain> dP: I will read, but I am not aware the license owner has to show source :)
17:33:26  <TrueBrain> well, you would be in violation of your own license, but meh :)
17:33:34  <trooper> TrueBrain I just asked the source of GPLv2 set to make my translation
17:33:44  <trooper> and it turned into all this shit
17:34:16  <TrueBrain> trooper: that happens :) 90% of the population doesn't understand licenses, and of the remaining 10% too few give a fuck .. which is not a good state, but says a lot about how complex licenses have become :) So that is no real surprise to me, tbh
17:34:20  <TrueBrain> let me read up a bit
17:34:43  <dP> TrueBrain, yes ofc you can't force sources out of them, but main question here is about bananas
17:35:04  <TrueBrain> there you mix up license vs distribution rights :)
17:35:18  <trooper> I don't want to do any harm to bananas or ottd or other devs & authors
17:35:30  <TrueBrain> random quotes, just to give a bit of background:
17:35:36  <TrueBrain> trooper: "The problem is that you can't change the license of the content that was already released under GPLv2" <- an author can always change license
17:35:50  <TrueBrain> he is the copyright owner, he can do what-ever-the-fuck-he-wants, in basic terms :)
17:36:06  <TrueBrain> you do need permission of ALL authors btw
17:36:08  <trooper> TrueBrain to new releases
17:36:32  <dP> TrueBrain, author can change license for a new content, that doesn't make old one magically legal
17:36:38  <trooper> you can't make an free software be not free
17:36:49  <andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free
17:36:53  <TrueBrain> dP: again, it feels like you are conflicted about license vs distribution here :)
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17:37:03  <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpretation of what you say :)
17:37:20  <TrueBrain> trooper: the binary out there will remain to have its license as it; new ones can change
17:37:29  <TrueBrain> this is not bound to "releases" in the sense we normally see releases
17:37:35  <TrueBrain> which makes it a bit .. weird
17:37:36  <dP> TrueBrain, well, mb, since I don't know the difference xD but in my eyes gpl covers distribution as well
17:37:37  <trooper> andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free --- TRUE
17:37:42  <trooper> you need a new release
17:37:49  <TrueBrain> but they can republish their grf again with another license, with no changes what so ever
17:37:59  <andythenorth> the current grf is a copyright violation, according to the thread
17:38:19  <TrueBrain> dP: what I mean is: as long as the original author uploaded the GRF, our ToS gives us permission to redistribute their files
17:38:24  <TrueBrain> this is the right to distribute they grant us
17:38:35  <TrueBrain> this from time to time breaks if people fuck up, and upload content they do not own
17:38:45  <TrueBrain> which is why we pull down files from time to time
17:38:46  <dP> TrueBrain, our tos does, but gpl doesn't
17:39:02  <andythenorth> GPL is actually irrelevant to the bananas question
17:39:11  <TrueBrain> our ToS gives us right to distribute; it superseeds any license, if it even mentions it
17:39:26  <TrueBrain> the other content we pull down, is if content is in clear violation of a license of someone else
17:39:40  <TrueBrain> say, you take a closed-source-DO-NOT-COPY license GRF, repack it, and upload it
17:39:46  <dP> TrueBrain, if I write a tos to give myself rights to sell windows does that make it legal?
17:39:49  <TrueBrain> we will pull that down, as you are clearly in violation of the other's license
17:40:00  <TrueBrain> dP: again, distribution rights
17:40:18  <TrueBrain> the ToS gives us a (limited) distribution license for files uploaded
17:40:28  <nielsm> GPL allows anyone to redistribute the work
17:40:48  <TrueBrain> nielsm: providing source, yes :)
17:40:50  <TrueBrain> :D
17:41:08  <TrueBrain> but what I am trying to say: BaNaNaS has little to do with the license of the uploaded content
17:41:40  <TrueBrain> the only exception being as I mentioned above, if an author challenge his use of his license on other content (which sadly enough happens)
17:41:48  <andythenorth> the only question for bananas: is this a copyright violation?
17:42:01  <TrueBrain> which only the original author can challenge, basically
17:42:04  <andythenorth> nobody has filed a request with us AFAIK
17:42:16  <andythenorth> we have evidence that it *is* a copyright violation
17:42:22  <andythenorth> but we haven't been asked to act
17:42:30  <TrueBrain> of course in most countries you have this concept of willfully distribution of illegal content
17:42:38  *** arikover has quit IRC
17:42:39  <TrueBrain> but this is not illegal content in any sense
17:43:01  <nielsm> well I suppose, for content with a copyleft license bananas ought to require the author to also upload the sources, so bananas can redistribute those as well
17:43:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I even disagree on that; this feels like an overreaction to people who did not understand licenses correctly
17:43:12  <TrueBrain> the best solution is for them to upload a new version with the correct license
17:43:24  <andythenorth> yes
17:43:38  <andythenorth> this is only civil law, and civil law works on the basis of remedies
17:43:40  <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is not the job of a distribution platform; but it would solve people picking wrong licenses
17:43:42  <andythenorth> there is a simple remedy here
17:43:51  <andythenorth> change the license, it was an honest mistake
17:43:58  <TrueBrain> a good addition would be to add to the web-interface a notice with these licenses: the spirit of the license is that you distribute your source code
17:45:02  <trooper> you can't change the license of the released libs
17:45:15  <TrueBrain> people make mistakes; that is part of life
17:45:19  <trooper> just delete them
17:45:28  <TrueBrain> either of two things happen: either they upload a new version with the right license, or they ragequit
17:45:28  <trooper> this is the only possible option
17:45:33  <TrueBrain> not sure if the latter benefits anyone
17:45:43  <TrueBrain> trooper: don't talk in extremes; it is pointless
17:45:49  <TrueBrain> in your opinion, it is the only possible option
17:45:55  <TrueBrain> in reality, there is a lot of grey area
17:46:03  <trooper> I used their sprites in my work
17:46:07  <trooper> what should I do?
17:46:25  <TrueBrain> well, I would debate that as long as you can supply your source, you are fine ;)
17:46:30  <TrueBrain> (as long as you base it on their old work)
17:46:44  <trooper> I need to provide sources
17:46:47  <trooper> of their work
17:46:49  <trooper> but I can't
17:47:02  <milek7> well, you probably can't use it
17:47:04  <andythenorth> you have a wide range of options
17:47:08  <trooper> lol
17:47:13  <andythenorth> you could remove their work from your work
17:47:15  <TrueBrain> milek7: I don't see why not, tbh
17:47:18  <milek7> GPL notice was mistake
17:47:19  <andythenorth> that is a remedy
17:47:29  <TrueBrain> milek7: their mistake; not trooper 's
17:47:33  <andythenorth> you could seek permissions from the original (third party) copyright holders
17:48:04  <milek7> TrueBrain: yep, but I don't think this shields against liability from original authors
17:48:05  <TrueBrain> "As you misunderstood licenses, would you mind if I still use your graphics for my own work"
17:48:07  <andythenorth> (totally unrelated to Bananas) - the CZ set have infringed on third party rights
17:48:19  <milek7> especially that he's now aware of invalid GPL notice
17:48:21  <TrueBrain> milek7: it becomes a bit thin; the issue below this issue is, what is "source"
17:48:36  <TrueBrain> milek7: but he acted in good faith up till now
17:49:19  <TrueBrain> see, in the end, we are not a court, and nobody is going to sue anyone for free OpenTTD gfx .. lets be real
17:49:26  <TrueBrain> so it is about community and working well together
17:49:33  <TrueBrain> shit happens, people make mistakes, bladiebla
17:49:37  <trooper> I agree
17:49:39  <andythenorth> talking to people is the first step
17:49:40  <TrueBrain> so this is about politeness to eachother
17:49:45  <TrueBrain> they fucked up their license, sure
17:49:52  <TrueBrain> they will fix it, fine
17:50:03  <andythenorth> the CZ group may have some personal shame now as they have to talk to their third parties
17:50:03  <TrueBrain> can trooper still use their gfx? Up to them .. but if they are reasonable, they allow you to do fine
17:50:10  <SpComb> the author pretty clearly stated that they just picked GPL v2 at random without actually knowing what it means > I put it in the uploaded GRF cause I have to write there something- I really don't care about this things
17:50:11  <TrueBrain> and your source is just their binary + your modifications
17:50:31  <TrueBrain> SpComb: ironic, as they clearly do care :)
17:50:37  <trooper> my source is sprites from their binary
17:50:44  <TrueBrain> but that is the biggest takeaway: our website needs to change to not put GPL on top, and add a warning what it implies :)
17:51:11  <andythenorth> is it a default choice, or do they have to explicitly pick?
17:51:13  * andythenorth looks
17:51:19  <TrueBrain> it is empty, you have to pick
17:51:25  <TrueBrain> first being GPL-licenses
17:51:31  <TrueBrain> at least, v1 did
17:51:32  <trooper> ok look if you change their license can I continue to use their sprites from old GRFs?
17:51:34  <TrueBrain> not sure what v1.5 does :P
17:51:45  <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's all fine 'choose a license' is default selected option
17:51:46  <andythenorth> all good
17:51:57  <TrueBrain> trooper: legally, a hard battle to fight either way; but explain to them why you did, and ask if they mind
17:52:11  <trooper> I don't want to bother them
17:52:16  <SpComb> how many GRFs are listed with " choose a license" as their license? :P
17:52:19  <TrueBrain> I think you already did ;) No offense meant :)
17:52:21  <andythenorth> trooper OpenTTD isn't where the decision can be made about that
17:52:38  <andythenorth> it's between CZ team, you, and the third parties whose copyright is infringed
17:52:55  <andythenorth> ideally have a better chat with them
17:53:20  <TrueBrain> be kind, don't be hostile, stay away from extremes, explain the situation, indicate the impact it would have on you if you cannot use them, and go from there
17:53:24  <andythenorth> use more smilies
17:53:29  <andythenorth> :P
17:53:31  <TrueBrain> smilies always help :)
17:53:32  <trooper> what I did wrong in the current chat?
17:53:50  <TrueBrain> and we all understand it is frustrating for both parties, so it is expected that initial replies are a bit cross
17:54:16  <nielsm> trooper: x/y problem. you want to translate, you attack the problem of getting the complete sources.
17:54:22  <dP> TrueBrain, I don't agree with your view on licenses but I like it since it means I can put into grf whatever I want as long as no one complains :p
17:54:29  <nielsm> yes it's a possible solution in some cases, in other cases it'
17:54:40  <nielsm> it's better to approach from a different angle
17:54:50  <TrueBrain> dP: that is literally how licenses work: you can do what ever the fuck you want until someone complains
17:55:00  <SpComb> but TBH shouldn't "No license" be a valid option? Then the uploader just needs to assert that they are the copyright holder / have permission from the copyright holder to upload and give bananas distribution rights, and then end users have... only their default rights? Which is maybe to use and not distribute?
17:55:16  <trooper> nielsm> I don't need complete sources I asked only NML file from the CZTR road set
17:55:30  <TrueBrain> SpComb: I agree that the current way licenses are implemented is weird, and roots back to the complains back in 2007
17:55:34  <trooper> I used NFO to get sprites
17:55:40  <nielsm> SpComb: not really, "no license" means nobody has right to use the content for anything
17:55:54  <nielsm> bananas is not useful for that kind of content
17:56:04  <TrueBrain> "No license" is unlawful, but asking for the license in the first place gives the wrong indication, I think
17:56:20  <andythenorth> there are some jurisdictions in which 'no license' is just not legal
17:56:28  <TrueBrain> as in: the whole of EU
17:56:29  <nielsm> the license at minimum should allow bananas to redistribute the unmodified work, and grant users the right to use the content within openttd and derived games
17:56:29  <TrueBrain> :P
17:56:38  <SpComb> yeah, I'm not sure what your default rights to redistributed content without any license is. It would be dangerous for the ToS to take any stance on that
17:56:58  <nielsm> with no license the default rights are NOTHING
17:57:06  <andythenorth> it's definitional :)
17:57:14  <TrueBrain> the default "no license" could be defined as: only the other has a license, yes :)
17:57:18  <nielsm> if you don't have a license to a work then you are not entitled to do anything with it
17:57:18  <andythenorth> so we all agree on that at least? o_O
17:57:23  <nielsm> neither use, enjoy, or share
17:57:30  <SpComb> I wonder
17:57:43  <andythenorth> I was a big fan of the WTFPL
17:57:46  <TrueBrain> and it starts with the unclarity of the word "license"
17:57:47  <andythenorth> just not safe for my kids
17:57:47  <SpComb> what kind of license does a book come with that allows me to read it?
17:58:05  <andythenorth> SpComb go in the library and photocopy it
17:58:07  <andythenorth> you'll find out
17:58:39  <SpComb> stepping firmly into the realm of bad software copyright analogies :P
17:58:48  <andythenorth> best avoided
17:58:54  <andythenorth> software license is software license
17:58:59  <andythenorth> I would like to see a test case for
17:59:03  <andythenorth> would be interesting
17:59:13  <milek7> actually, I think photocopying books in library is fine? depends on jurdistriction probably
17:59:28  <TrueBrain> milek7: it depends on your intent, in most countries :)
17:59:36  <andythenorth> yes, I just assume SpComb is in UK like me :P
18:02:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP)
18:02:48  <TrueBrain> dP: and just to be clear on the license vs distribution: basically, our ToS adds, on top of your normal license, a specific-for-OpenTTD distribution license. The word license becomes icky here, as it means many things :P But even if you upload a custom license that says: NOBODY CAN TOUCH THIS, we can still bring it to your client, as you gave us a license for it :)
18:03:54  <milek7> trooper: keep in mind that you need to make them feel safe, that you won't download source and run away of it :P
18:03:56  <milek7> probably root of this problem is that content from trainsim community usually is heavily restricted ("all rights reserved, don't redistribute, use only in simulator X, don't modify, don't look at it wrong, contact me for permission to do anything with it")
18:04:31  <TrueBrain> dP: so if you make a ToS that gives you the rights to sell Windows and get Microsoft to sign it, yes, I am pretty sure you can sell Windows :)
18:04:33  <trooper> ya I'll take their sources and create a new game and sell it for 100000$$$$$
18:04:35  <milek7> they might fear that it leaks somewhere and they would lose access to their upstream
18:04:53  <dP> TrueBrain, ah, I think I get what you mean, since it's supposedly the author of grf who uploads it he can grant additional rights.
18:05:03  <TrueBrain> dP: that I tried to say, yes ;)
18:05:06  <TrueBrain> clearly I failed :) :D
18:05:22  <TrueBrain> this is why it is important to us that the original author uploads the content, and why we kick content that is not uploaded by the original author
18:05:39  <TrueBrain> you give us a distribution license for your content
18:05:48  <TrueBrain> (but ONLY distribution license, and even there a very specific one)
18:06:07  <TrueBrain> so license issues are still between who-ever violated them and the owner
18:06:25  <TrueBrain> otherwise BaNaNaS cannot operate; we cannot validate every license like this :)
18:06:47  <TrueBrain> (and every distribution platform works like this btw :P It is the reason YouTube can exist!)
18:09:27  <andythenorth> contract law
18:09:31  * andythenorth making dinner oops
18:10:11  <TrueBrain> well, fun fact, I figured this out when we were asking to get a license for the original gfx of OpenTTD! We assumed Atari had the license, but they only had a distribution license :)
18:10:40  <TrueBrain> meaning they could not give us a license to distribute the original graphics :(
18:11:12  <TrueBrain> they have, however, given some companies the right to use them for specific events etc :)
18:12:30  <andythenorth> are the originals orphaned somewhere legally?
18:12:35  * andythenorth has always wondered about just buying them
18:13:36  <milek7> probably not orphaned
18:13:38  <milek7>
18:13:49  <TrueBrain> trooper: word of the wise, you are still not reading what the author of the grf is asking you. You ask for something, but you don't listen to him. He is asking why you want to use it for. Start a dialog, which is more than asking for things. Explain what you want to do with it, what great thing you are building on top of their work, make them happy and proud to be part of that. It is more likely people want to help you if you position yourself
18:13:49  <TrueBrain> that way :)
18:14:20  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: for over 15 years I don't know of any legal way to buy TT(D) except for ebay / .. in the original box
18:14:23  <andythenorth> milek7 they're not the original art assets though
18:15:03  <TrueBrain> there have been online places you can "buy" TT(D), which never has found to be legal
18:16:41  <trooper> TrueBrain> it is useless just a waste of the time
18:16:57  <trooper> ottd community is ruined
18:17:01  <milek7> 31X Ltd was formed by Chris Sawyer in 2010 to develop TRANSPORT TYCOON for the new generation of social and mobile platforms. [..] In 2010, Chris had the opportunity of reverting the MicroProse license and decided that this would be the perfect time to re-design and master his classic game for mobiles and tablets so that it could be enjoyed both by its huge number of fans and a new generation of players.
18:17:11  <andythenorth> again, you escalate from 0-100 in no time trooper
18:17:17  <andythenorth> please, try not to :)
18:17:39  <TrueBrain> it seems he keeps forgetting the words "to me" and "in my opinion" :D
18:17:56  <trooper> it is not me who released something under GPLv2 and refusing to provide sources
18:18:14  <andythenorth> trooper ever in your life have you made a mistake?
18:18:19  <andythenorth> if not, I send you gold medal
18:18:22  <andythenorth> literal gold
18:18:25  <milek7> don't assume bad faith, it was never GPL, just wrong annotation
18:18:26  <andythenorth> pls give me your address
18:18:56  <nielsm> trooper: who is violating whose license?
18:18:57  <TrueBrain> milek7: yeah, we also have a very strong letter from the lawyer of CS :D
18:19:14  <TrueBrain> also a nice letter of the music artist of TT(D)
18:20:04  <trooper> nielsm> I just don't want to steal their work
18:20:10  <trooper> and lie like they do
18:20:21  <trooper> so I'm asking for sources according to GPL
18:20:22  <andythenorth> also V4530000 made friends with the original graphics artist
18:20:27  <andythenorth> who supports is
18:20:29  <andythenorth> us *
18:20:30  <trooper> I can decompile NFO and use it
18:20:35  <trooper> but I don't do this
18:20:43  <trooper> I respect the other authors rights
18:20:47  <andythenorth> you can't ask for sources under the GPL as I explained
18:20:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: his letter was like: I wouldn't mind, but I don't hold the license, so sorrrrrryyyyyyyy
18:20:51  <TrueBrain> (paraphrased)
18:20:51  <andythenorth> the GPL does not apply
18:21:09  <andythenorth> but that is between you and CZ and their third parties
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18:21:29  <nielsm> trooper: try asking this question instead: I would like to help you by making translations of your project. Will you let me have access to your project so I can keep up with your work and keep the translations up-to-date?
18:21:36  <nielsm> wording is important
18:21:45  <nielsm> this isn't about law or semantics, it's about human relations
18:21:48  <nielsm> first and foremost
18:21:53  <trooper>
18:22:42  <trooper> ok nm I'll decompile, wasting to much time on this bullshit
18:22:45  <andythenorth> trooper you're confused about what bananas is
18:23:47  <trooper> what all these licenses on banana mean?
18:23:54  <trooper> all of them are bullshit
18:23:55  <milek7> TrueBrain: >and every distribution platform works like this btw :P
18:23:59  <milek7> though that might change with that silly directive digital single market article 17, no?
18:24:13  <TrueBrain> milek7: you talk about that weird country called "USA"?
18:24:23  <milek7> no, EU
18:24:25  <dP> are there any working irc logs? i've no idea where i got disconnected %)
18:24:42  <TrueBrain> milek7: ah :) Don't know :) I know the US was trying to get that part kinda different :P
18:24:46  <andythenorth> trooper again 0-100
18:24:48  <nielsm> dP:
18:24:58  <andythenorth> you go from 'one grf has wrong license' to 'all of bananas is bullshit'
18:25:01  <andythenorth> please stop
18:25:06  <TrueBrain> milek7: linky? Curious now :)
18:25:07  <andythenorth> you'll probably just get kicked
18:25:08  <dP> nielsm, yeah, I used that but it stops few hours ago
18:25:13  <milek7>
18:25:24  <nielsm> dP: it's fully updated for me
18:25:31  <milek7> non-commercial are excepted, but still, I don't like it
18:25:39  <TrueBrain> milek7: ah, that bull
18:25:45  <milek7> These conditions are an implementation of "effective and proportionate measures", as claimed by service providers, to "prevent the availability of specific [unlicensed] works identified by rightsholders", acting "expeditiously" to remove them, and demonstrating that "best efforts" have been made to prevent their future availability.
18:26:40  <trooper> Ok i'll take their sources recompile and put on bananas under my name including sprites
18:26:45  <TrueBrain> well, we do "best effort" too :)
18:26:56  <andythenorth> trooper then you'll probably get removed for copyright violation
18:27:20  <trooper> thy can't provide copyright
18:27:41  <andythenorth> CZ team has violated copyright
18:27:43  <nielsm> trooper: send a nicely worded question in private message to the people authoring the CZ set, it's useless asking anyone here about it
18:27:46  <andythenorth> you doing it too doesn't help the case
18:27:48  <andythenorth> just talk to them
18:28:00  <dP> nielsm, weird, to me it just stops randomly mid-page
18:28:08  <TrueBrain> dP: hard reload?
18:28:13  <andythenorth> nobody at OpenTTD has any remedy except to advise you to talk
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18:28:55  <TrueBrain> dP: but in all fairness, it stops midsenttence here too :)
18:29:06  <TrueBrain> hard reload did fix it :o
18:29:11  <TrueBrain> page was empty too for a few tries
18:29:12  <dP> TrueBrain, hm, ctrl-shift-r doesn't do it, but opening through tor does %)
18:29:14  <TrueBrain> I blame my IPv6 :)
18:30:19  <trooper> andythenorth> I tried, but now I don't want to talk to them, I'll use compiled NFO, I just want to see a reasonable reaction from community on GPL violation
18:30:32  <andythenorth> it's not a GPL violation
18:30:34  <trooper> anyway thank you
18:30:36  <andythenorth> it's a copyright violation
18:30:39  <nielsm> trooper: THEY are voilating THEIR OWN license?
18:30:47  <nielsm> that's not possible
18:30:48  <TrueBrain> lets play the game: guess the age of trooper ; I am voting for 12
18:30:48  <trooper> nielsm> yes
18:30:52  <nielsm> they are the copyright holders
18:30:58  <nielsm> they can do whatever they want
18:31:03  <nielsm> they hold the original rights
18:31:08  <andythenorth> no they don't
18:31:16  <trooper> ok bye bye thank you for help
18:31:18  <andythenorth> they've licensed some stuff from 3rd parties
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18:31:36  <TrueBrain> if he hadn't left, it wouldn't be long before he was forcefully left ..
18:32:01  <TrueBrain> well, that was not an english sentence, but what-ever
18:33:17  <andythenorth> it probably was
18:33:22  <dP> TrueBrain, ok, so to continue, doesn't bananas gives users rights to request source code by distributing gpl content? what allowes it to immediately violate them?
18:33:24  <andythenorth> most things sentences are English
18:33:40  <TrueBrain> dP: that license is between owner and user
18:33:56  <TrueBrain> it is not for the distribution platform to supply that stream of information
18:34:00  <TrueBrain> it is to mediate between btw
18:34:08  <andythenorth> two meanings of 'distribute' ?
18:34:14  <andythenorth> we are just a conduit in this case
18:34:20  <andythenorth> we haven't modified the work
18:34:33  <andythenorth> we aren't causing a modified version to be transmitted to others
18:34:44  <andythenorth> we are just the post office (to use terrible analogy)
18:34:52  <TrueBrain> dP: we do have due diligence, so that is why I asked if they are asked to upload a new version with the correct license, btw
18:35:41  <TrueBrain> what to me is interesting to figure out, is if anyone else but the copyright holder can complain about a license infringement
18:36:01  <dP> TrueBrain, hm, doesn't sound very convincing ... what's the license between user and bananas then?
18:36:18  <TrueBrain> as far as I am aware, none :P
18:36:25  <andythenorth> dP try it this way
18:36:33  <andythenorth> how does bananas make us an author?
18:36:39  <TrueBrain> do you sign a license anywhere when you download content? :)
18:37:11  <andythenorth> GPL is very simple
18:37:17  * andythenorth spent a lot of time on it :P
18:37:24  <TrueBrain> owh boy, here it comes :)
18:37:42  <dP> TrueBrain, well, there is tos usually
18:37:45  <andythenorth> I had such fun with it :P
18:37:51  <dP> TrueBrain, even on bananas, there is just not a word about users xD
18:38:01  <TrueBrain> there is no user ToS, no
18:38:03  <TrueBrain> just the: behave
18:38:32  <TrueBrain> but this is mainly the point: BaNaNaS has no legal right in this whole license story
18:38:47  <TrueBrain> we pick the binary as is, and give it to someone else, as a middleman
18:38:51  <andythenorth> bananas is not an author
18:39:00  <andythenorth> GPL is about author rights
18:39:04  <TrueBrain> again, we have to make sure we are doing "best effort" to prevent illegal crap
18:39:13  <TrueBrain> so if someone uploads a movie, we have to take actions, of course
18:39:22  <TrueBrain> we have to listen to DMCA requests, and all that
18:40:16  <nielsm> as I understand it, bananas distributes content to end-users on behalf of the uploaders, it's the uploader that must have the right to grant a license to download and use the content to the end-user
18:40:24  <TrueBrain> which brings to two interesting points: 1) can a copyright owner violate his own license? (I think he cannot) 2) even if he would, do we need to take action on it before the owner asks us?
18:41:06  <TrueBrain> but why I agree'd with SpComb earlier that our license question is a weird one, as most of these license we mention are more about how to deal with contribution and attribution
18:41:07  <Borg> b_jonas: then production can be up to 2048 afair
18:41:14  <TrueBrain> which, from our platform point of view, is a weird question
18:41:26  <TrueBrain> it is more for the end-user that wants to modify it, redistribute it, etc
18:41:47  <TrueBrain> so possibly we are asking the question about "license" in the wrong light
18:42:00  <Wolf01> Wtf still talking about licenses?
18:42:04  <TrueBrain> we don't ask it for BaNaNaS, as a distribution platform, but to help others that want to do anything with it
18:42:14  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah, but it got a bit mature conversation; at least, I think so :)
18:42:34  <Wolf01> I hope so
18:44:23  <andythenorth> one way to think about it, 'GPL' or other license fact is metadata for a bananas content
18:44:39  <andythenorth> it's not the license we are applying to it
18:44:54  <andythenorth> it's the license the author has told us they are using
18:45:11  <TrueBrain> I guess dP's point is, how far are we responsible that it should be correct
18:45:18  <TrueBrain> till what extend are we a partner in that
18:45:20  <andythenorth> [dunno]
18:45:33  <andythenorth> depends on jurisdiction and all that bollocks
18:45:47  <TrueBrain> there is also the common-sense factor there
18:45:53  <TrueBrain> the Dutch approach: eerlijk en billijk
18:45:57  * andythenorth translates
18:46:13  <andythenorth> oic
18:46:43  <TrueBrain> but given this situation: they just made an honest mistake; as long as the copyright owner doesn't send us a request to takedown, I don't see an ethical reason we should take action (ethical being the important word here); of course I would love to know if any of you disagree on that :)
18:47:02  <andythenorth> FWIW I would have taken the CZ set down as a copyright violation, they've self-evidenced that they have done it wrong.  But I'd probably regret it.
18:47:42  <TrueBrain> what is the benefit of that course of action?
18:47:43  <Wolf01> I agree, it's the author problem to check if his stuff is used elsewhere, not the platform system/owners
18:48:00  <dP> tbh, I'm just curious how it works, not rly trying to make any point xD
18:48:24  <TrueBrain> dP: yeah, so am I :) Just making sure we are on the same page here :D
18:48:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have nothing.  It just seems 'correct', but also too hasty.
18:48:47  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: :D
18:48:56  <andythenorth> I have no shame about being wrong :P
18:48:58  <andythenorth> happens a lot
18:49:00  <TrueBrain> dP: I guess the fact you see laws being changed around this, showing it is not an easy answer
18:49:23  <TrueBrain> but the reason distribution platforms can exist atm, is that they have very little liability
18:49:33  <TrueBrain> very low risk
18:50:00  <TrueBrain> Do I get a complain? Does it "sound" correct? Pull the content. If not, send a request for proof. Done
18:51:09  <andythenorth> oh that's why I would have pulled it, ToS violation
18:51:17  <andythenorth> but it isn't quite, on the current wording
18:51:19  <andythenorth> so fuck that :)
18:51:48  <andythenorth> "You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)." is nicely broad :)
18:52:02  <TrueBrain> saved us in the early days
18:52:13  <TrueBrain> a handful of authors REALLY did not like BaNaNaS
18:52:17  <TrueBrain> "omg, people can download my content", vibe
18:52:27  <TrueBrain> or, what I suspect: "omg, I am not getting ad revenue" :D
18:52:38  <TrueBrain> did I say that out loud? Hmm .. maybe I shouldn't have :P
18:52:45  <andythenorth> oh dear
18:52:46  <Wolf01> I wonder who they were... (no I don't, I know who they were)
18:52:53  <andythenorth> now you are saying your thoughts TrueBrain
18:52:59  <andythenorth> where does this lead us?
18:54:02  <milek7> from what I have seen, 'omg, people can download my content' mindset is still big in trainsim communities
18:54:11  <Wolf01> Btw, break, did anybody purchase stardock utilities on steam? Do they need steam active to run or they are just distributed and kept updated with steam?
18:54:34  <TrueBrain> milek7: sounds horrible
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18:55:14  <Wolf01> I was totally happy when I found some people downloaded my first scenario on Trainz a new era
18:55:55  <TrueBrain> one of the things I dislike about certain Minecraft plugins .. you HAVE to download them from their site, FULL of ads
18:56:10  <TrueBrain> which reminds me .. back to kappa mode
18:56:27  <Wolf01> Ads? Which ads?
18:56:28  <milek7> etc.? :D
18:56:35  <TrueBrain> that bull, yes
18:57:47  <dP> I get minecraft but ads in openttd, seriosly? xD
18:58:10  <dP> as much as I want to somehow monetize my work around openttd I realize my best shot is probably donations xD
18:58:31  <TrueBrain> ^^
18:58:38  <TrueBrain> still considering adding cloud save for a fee :P
18:59:21  <nielsm> let authors add a "support the author" URL to their bananas uploads
18:59:32  <nielsm> which could link to patreon or whatever
18:59:39  <TrueBrain> so many things BaNaNaS could use
18:59:54  <TrueBrain> but, the code is all there now, for anyone to pickup :)
19:00:03  <TrueBrain> the database is schemeless, so no issue upgrading!
19:01:06  <TrueBrain> typing .. hard .. schemaless
19:01:33  <dP> TrueBrain, oh, what db does it use?
19:01:39  <TrueBrain> GitHub!
19:01:40  <TrueBrain> :D
19:01:45  <dP> ah, lol
19:01:50  <TrueBrain>
19:02:05  <andythenorth> sometimes I wish I could inject a little perspective, but I am not king, not even for a day
19:02:17  <andythenorth> elsewhere in forums, we have this
19:02:27  <andythenorth> and a bit of trainsim license drama seems like blah blah
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19:03:55  <TrueBrain> how sweet to crosspost that of that dude :)
19:04:02  <TrueBrain> otherwise: how horrible
19:04:57  <andythenorth> perspective eh
19:05:03  <andythenorth> kept me awake the other night after I read it
19:05:48  <andythenorth> already too many friends gone that way, and I'm only a bit over 40
19:05:59  * andythenorth must to play Tanks
19:06:17  <TrueBrain> and remind me not to be friends with you :P :P :P (sorry, I just had to :D)
19:06:17  <TrueBrain> <3
19:07:08  <andythenorth> TrueBrains are gonna TrueBrain
19:07:22  <TrueBrain> nah, even I noticed it was in poor taste :(
19:08:57  <andythenorth> oof :)
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19:21:53  <nielsm> TrueBrain: looks like I'll have to have my bananas account migrated too
19:22:14  <TrueBrain> make a PR :D
19:22:17  <TrueBrain> :P
19:24:11  <frosch123> nielsm: is your username obvious?
19:25:20  <frosch123> one gs?
19:25:42  <nielsm> yeah just this one
19:25:57  <andythenorth> the lack of responses to this disappoints me :(
19:26:13  <nielsm> I can't quite figure out how to get the user id to put in the authors file
19:26:20  <supermop_Home> andythenorth hard to know where to start
19:26:26  <andythenorth>
19:26:45  <supermop_Home> i read the post this morning
19:26:55  <supermop_Home> but then i had to do work...
19:27:29  <frosch123> nielsm:
19:27:38  <andythenorth> probably won't work for me :)  I have to play with 'full animation' off
19:27:55  <andythenorth> no palette cycles
19:28:23  <frosch123> nielsm: <- you use
19:29:33  <frosch123> it creates a threadpool to make a single request, it must be good :)
19:30:05  <andythenorth> did I write it?
19:31:45  <dP> I never really understood the point of conveyor belts in openttd, especially fake ones
19:31:56  <supermop_Home> what about real ones?
19:32:01  <frosch123> V would be happy
19:32:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: will you now do wetroads to ship logs downstream?
19:32:45  <dP> supermop_Home, depends, I can imagine few usecases
19:33:28  <dP> well, I guess they look cool so eyecandy is always a usecase xD
19:33:48  <andythenorth> frosch123 I might dream of it
19:34:01  <andythenorth> reality is I need to draw this
19:34:12  <supermop_Home> frosch123 I've been meaning to make a log flume for ages
19:34:12  <andythenorth> and I probably have lots of newgrf spec admin I never finished :|
19:34:27  <andythenorth> like when we release nml 0.5.3 I have to fix the wiki back to how it was
19:34:36  <andythenorth> when are we releasing 0.5.3?
19:34:38  <andythenorth> the user is angry
19:34:53  <andythenorth> dP do you never use PIPE.grf?
19:34:58  <andythenorth> it's great
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19:41:04  <dP> andythenorth, no, I have it downloaded apparently but no idea how it even works
19:42:23  <andythenorth> it's weird but good
19:44:11  <andythenorth> I use it like this on long routes
19:44:17  <dP> well, my pump doesn't even want to leave the depot
19:44:23  <andythenorth> sometimes I just do lolz with it
19:44:25  <dP> and it is very weird to even write that xD
19:44:35  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: WHERE ARE YOUR PRETTY LINKS?!
19:44:39  <andythenorth>
19:44:44  <andythenorth> TrueBrain yair yair
19:44:55  <andythenorth> TBH I am just amazed I can upload to S3 so easily
19:45:01  <andythenorth> just drop files in the browser window
19:45:05  <andythenorth> magical
19:45:07  <TrueBrain> you amaze me every day
19:45:50  <supermop_Home> pipe could benefit from custom depot and tunnel sprites
19:46:24  <milek7> pipe is roadtype?
19:46:30  <supermop_Home> railtype
19:46:50  <milek7> crashing fluids, then? :P
19:47:08  <supermop_Home> but would be nice if reimplemented in nrt
19:48:26  <andythenorth> it needs done in NRT
19:48:34  * andythenorth might do it in Road Hog
19:48:44  <andythenorth> but I don't know how to animate or draw it :P
19:48:45  <andythenorth> so eh
19:50:20  <dP> is there any grf that implements clouds and birds as aircrafts?
19:50:27  <dP> that I could actually use xD
19:50:58  <nielsm> heliports skinned as large trees that breed birds?
19:51:08  <andythenorth> there's an object with seagulls :P
19:51:11  <dP> nielsm, yes, and mountains for cloudss
19:51:33  <nielsm> but really, GS-controlled disaster vehicles
19:51:45  <nielsm> which could also not cause disaster but just delight
19:51:54  <dP> nielsm, or that, yes
19:53:03  <dP> nielsm, but disasters are just an idea when aircrafts can be done already :p
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21:02:46  <b_jonas> I should now have a triple mainline going all the way to the largest oil refinery (which now produces 1500 tons per month), branching also to a double line to the city that takes all my goods, plus 3+2+4 oil refineries
21:03:32  <b_jonas> plus an all-vactrain passenger line among seven cities
21:04:18  <b_jonas> at least I hope it's triple all the way, I still have to look a bit more to find errors
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21:13:14  <supermop_Home> i find that triple lines barely give you enough of a capacity increase over a regular doubled line without a lot of timetabling or luck
21:15:14  <supermop_Home> 3 tracks doesn't really give 1.5x the capacity of two tracks, but takes 1.5 times the space. 4 tracks takes twice the space but gives pretty much twice the capacity
21:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking he meant 3 lines in each direction
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21:20:59  <supermop_Home> well that certainly is a lot
21:21:38  <Borg> yeah... a lot too lot ;)
21:21:57  <Borg> if I have huge capacity hub.. I spread it.... try to handle 10-12k goods production from 2x factory..
21:22:11  <Borg> single station? nada...  you need to split it...
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21:23:02  <Borg> but :) I bet its fun to maintain such tracks...
21:23:20  <Borg> I do a lot of getto junctions. so... triple tracks would be too much to me..
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21:25:40  <b_jonas> oopsie, I had a train stuck in an inaccessible depots
21:26:01  <b_jonas> yes, 3 in each directions
21:26:13  <b_jonas> the hub is a roro station that I built on the weekend
21:26:33  <b_jonas> and the mainline is quite long which means junctions don't come together too much
21:26:53  <Borg> bigger map I assume?
21:26:55  <b_jonas> and the oil rigs are grouped, except for that one huge one, so the trains serve multiple smaller ones together
21:27:00  <b_jonas> it's an 512x512 map
21:27:12  <Borg> oh.. medium.. I usualy play 256x256 when I play alone..
21:27:28  <Borg> 128x128 too smalish ;) but I might try this one... one day
21:27:38  <b_jonas> the refinery is on the north, the large oil station is in the east
21:28:33  <b_jonas> the distance between the two is approximately 430
21:29:03  <b_jonas> no, more like 440
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21:39:18  <supermop_Home>
21:39:24  <supermop_Home> this needs yellow on it
21:41:16  <andythenorth> photoshop
21:43:34  <Speeder_> what cargos I can't change IDs again?
21:43:44  <Speeder_> I remember if you change IDs of some cargos the game breaks down
21:45:32  <andythenorth>
21:47:01  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i always assuming i'm talking to a load of 12 year olds
21:47:08  <LordAro> seems i missed quite the fun
21:49:39  <andythenorth> 'fun'
21:59:59  <dP> crazy idea of the day: make a fully automated livestream that switches between servers and comments what's happening there with a synthesized voice
22:00:27  <andythenorth> would it troll?
22:01:08  <dP> sure xd
22:02:04  <Speeder_> opengrf+ nlm is confusing me a lot
22:02:17  <dP> "this player only builds 90 degrees turns, I suspect he's also a robot"
22:03:11  <Speeder_> it has this line I have no idea how it works: type_name: 0x0010; unit_name: 0x0010 + 0x20; units_of_cargo: 0x0010 + 0x40; items_of_cargo: 0x0010 + 0x60; type_abbreviation: 0x0010 + 0x80;
22:03:27  <Speeder_> wasn't these supposed to be strings?
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22:09:27  <dP> sometimes I think it would be better if there was no "new company" button when joining server
22:10:20  <dP> a lot of players seem to use it instead of spectating
22:11:52  <dP> also complicates messaging them as, for example, I show server welcome message on join and basic gameplay info on company creation
22:12:01  <dP> when it's the same it's too much info at once
22:13:41  <dP> it's almost to a point that you can instantly see if player is experienced by the way he joins servers
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