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00:16:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJtdg 00:42:32 <CornsMcGowan[m]> @_oftc_jewo_GRFS:matrix.org: vcpkg, you need to checkout an older tag 00:43:11 <glx> CornsMcGowan[m]: only for non cmake 00:43:44 <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0 00:43:53 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh its v453000 :0 00:58:31 *** gelignite has quit IRC 00:58:39 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the usual size of network commands? (in bytes) 01:05:03 *** mindlesstux6662 has quit IRC 01:06:11 *** mindlesstux6662 has joined #openttd 02:21:22 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:47:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also, i remember there being a document that explains the different between files like uh 02:47:25 <CornsMcGowan[m]> viewport.h, viewport.cpp, viewport_type.h and viewport_func.h 02:47:30 <CornsMcGowan[m]> does anybody know where it is? 02:47:49 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh theres no viewport.h 03:01:25 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:04:57 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a really old and outdated set of wikipages called "dev black book" or something 03:13:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0 03:14:29 <CornsMcGowan[m]> https://wiki.openttd.org/Development got redirected here 03:14:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook 03:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, outdated 03:19:38 <CornsMcGowan[m]> fair enough 03:19:55 *** glx has quit IRC 03:21:13 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 04:25:19 *** Gustavo6046 is now known as Guest2702 04:25:23 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 04:26:15 *** Guest2702 has quit IRC 04:47:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] HotelCalifornia commented on issue #8201: Consider upgrading CMake to latest release https://git.io/JfMP8 05:02:50 <CornsMcGowan[m]> any way i can control a loop within OnRealtimeTick() to only execute for a fixed amount of time (say 1millisecond) 05:03:18 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i don't know what timing functions i should use 05:12:18 *** b_jonas has quit IRC 05:37:26 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:43:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 06:01:56 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:34:29 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 06:47:10 *** cHawk- has joined #openttd 06:53:13 *** cHawk has quit IRC 07:27:42 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:32:39 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i guess i should use whatever the framerate window uses 07:42:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on issue #8201: Consider upgrading CMake to latest release https://git.io/JfMP8 07:47:52 <nielsm> CornsMcGowan[m]: yes, use the <chrono> header https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/chrono 07:48:14 <nielsm> remember to stick to the C++11 things if you intend to get merged into master 07:49:16 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:49:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on issue #8200: Consider upgrading to C++17 https://git.io/JfMiD 07:56:33 *** keoz has joined #openttd 08:10:55 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 08:39:04 *** Laedek has quit IRC 08:42:58 *** nielsm has quit IRC 09:02:21 <CornsMcGowan[m]> tyvm 09:10:16 <CornsMcGowan[m]> wait what new C++17 features are there 09:10:19 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i should google this 09:36:08 *** arikover has joined #openttd 09:55:11 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 09:55:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 10:02:05 *** tokai has quit IRC 10:06:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> should i be worried about the performance of selecting large areas (eg demolish, landscape or tree tools) in debug build? 10:27:17 <planetmaker> oh how lovely. Someone complaining that we don't distribute sources for the newgrfs under GPL. Told him to check our TOS - and to ask authors of the NewGRFs for source. 10:41:33 *** gelignite has quit IRC 10:43:15 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:49:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 11:01:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 11:08:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 11:12:09 <andythenorth_> planetmaker presumably trooper? 11:12:29 <andythenorth_> if so, it's already had quite enough discussion 11:26:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 11:32:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, dunno... Mikhail A 11:32:28 <andythenorth_> about CZ set? 11:32:40 <planetmaker> no. Going the very broad general way 11:32:47 <andythenorth_> hmm dunno then 11:32:53 <planetmaker> "you distribute stuff under GPL, thus you must distribute its sources" 11:33:14 <andythenorth_> I don't want to say person A is person B if is B is someone else 11:33:23 <andythenorth_> but all this was covered on Monday 11:33:50 <andythenorth_> it's what you said already, we don't 'distribute' in the way GPL means 11:34:04 <andythenorth_> we're just plumbing / pipes / media 11:34:36 <andythenorth_> there was some blah blah around it here and in forums relating to CZ set, Pikka seems to have deleted it from forums though 11:35:28 <andythenorth_> 'nothing to see, move on' :) 11:36:05 <planetmaker> he :) 11:36:38 <planetmaker> well, that guy replied already. And seems to not have understood my answer, that we have a special license as by our TOS, thus GPL requirements do not apply for us... 11:37:23 <andythenorth_> logs from Monday will show TB explaining it 11:37:39 <andythenorth_> or you could leave it alone and get on with life :) 11:38:08 <planetmaker> I shall not reply further :) 11:38:19 <planetmaker> things which needed saying have been said :) 11:39:39 <planetmaker> @logs 11:39:39 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd 11:39:51 <SpComb> yeah, you have a separate license to distribute via the bananas tos, so the GPL isn't really relevant 11:42:11 <SpComb> did the uploader re-upload it with a different license? 11:45:33 <LordAro> definitely sounds like trooper 11:53:35 <SpComb> the uploader might be breaking something by attaching a GPL license to something that they are not the sole author of, and the other authors clearly didn't intend it to be under the GPL. If I was one of those other authors, I would certainly complain that my works are being improperly distributed 11:54:39 <planetmaker> yes... if. like https://github.com/Brianum/OpenTTD :P 11:54:54 <planetmaker> which were actually banned from bananannas 11:55:27 <planetmaker> I couldn't be arsed to file a DMCA to github about it, though 11:55:56 <andythenorth_> TB was quite clear, we get a complaint, we take it down 11:56:01 <andythenorth_> no complaint, no action 11:56:06 <planetmaker> sure thing 11:56:10 <andythenorth_> complaint = from copyright owner 11:56:14 <planetmaker> but a valid complaint...^^^ 11:56:31 <andythenorth_> has to be valid yes +1 11:56:48 <planetmaker> that has always been our position. And it's the only one you can take as content distributor as we are in this case 11:57:29 <planetmaker> especially as we ask the uploader to ensure that s/he is allowed to upload what is being uploaded... so... yes 11:58:46 <SpComb> downloading something with a GPL license attached doesn't really give you any special rights. If you don't have the source, then you cannot comply with the license and benefit from being able to redistribute. Whoever distributed it to you may be breaking the original author's copyright, unless they are the copyright holders or have a separate license to distribute 11:59:58 <dP> there can be some notification on bananas or something if invalid license was used though 12:00:18 <dP> just so someone else who uses that seemingly gpled content doesn't get complaints out of the blue 12:00:18 <planetmaker> strictly speaking, that's problematic for any set which is developed by more than one person. It would need permission by each contributor 12:00:54 <planetmaker> however, those who use this license in OpenTTD context mean to use it in the way it is being used... 12:01:20 <planetmaker> @dP, what makes the license invalid and how do you tell? 12:02:06 <planetmaker> seems totally impractical. You basically... ask for an upload filter and manual review of each upload. Which basically means the service ceases to exist. 12:02:16 <dP> planetmaker, well, author of said grf admitting he used the wrong license should be enough to tell :p 12:02:21 <planetmaker> Luckily we are not there yet 12:03:48 <andythenorth_> if we *know* the license is invalid we would ideally take it down, as we shouldn't be distributing poisoned GPL things, it makes a mess for people who reuse 12:03:54 <andythenorth_> but our ToS don't say that 12:03:55 <andythenorth_> so eh 12:03:59 <andythenorth_> it is what it is 13:34:12 <supermop_Home> yo 13:35:03 <andythenorth_> yo 14:01:08 *** Speeder has joined #openttd 14:06:20 *** Speeder_ has quit IRC 14:09:08 *** Speeder has quit IRC 14:10:17 *** k-man has quit IRC 14:10:50 *** Borg has joined #openttd 14:25:03 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:25:16 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:42:25 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 14:52:15 *** gelignite has quit IRC 15:09:20 <TrueBrain> <planetmaker> andythenorth_, dunno... Mikhail A <- without reading most of the rest of the conversation, yes, that is trooper; see the forum for that evidence :) 15:09:25 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:09:56 <andythenorth_> pikka has deleted it from the forum 15:10:05 <planetmaker> yep 15:10:07 <TrueBrain> ah; well, then believe me with my blue eyes :) 15:10:11 <TrueBrain> which I do not have :P 15:10:13 <andythenorth_> I believe you :) 15:10:15 <andythenorth_> all of it 15:10:17 <planetmaker> but from what remains,that's still conclusive 15:10:44 <planetmaker> however *I* do have a copyright case for relasing the source of the CZTR :P 15:11:03 <TrueBrain> go for it :P 15:11:11 <TrueBrain> you want me to reply on his mail btw? 15:11:25 <planetmaker> whose / which? 15:11:31 <TrueBrain> trooper, info@ 15:11:38 <planetmaker> not to his 2nd 15:11:53 <planetmaker> I replied to the first. The 2nd proves he didn't read/understand my 1st 15:11:55 <TrueBrain> your reply on the first was nice btw :) 15:12:11 <TrueBrain> yeah, so we can reply to him: we told you this on IRC too already, you misunderstand licensing 15:12:19 <TrueBrain> but we can also just not reply :) all the same to me! 15:13:09 <TrueBrain> I love how he things licenses stack :) The dual-license concept is completely lost on him :) 15:13:36 <TrueBrain> but good to see he still hasn't took our advise to heart: learn to communicate in a polite way 15:14:57 <TrueBrain> "your opinion on how licenses work is not relevant; please contact the original author to figure this out" :D 15:15:39 <andythenorth_> so much words :) 15:15:46 <andythenorth_> did anyone sort out my IAM identities yet? 15:15:52 <andythenorth_> what? Only I can do that? 15:15:54 <andythenorth_> outrage 15:16:45 <TrueBrain> it just saddens me that people can get in this mode of "harm was done to me, so now everything has to burn with me" :( This is an Open Source game, run for free .. give it some slack .. meh 15:17:23 <andythenorth_> don't be sad Truebrain! 15:17:28 <andythenorth_> it's only cartoon tanks! 15:17:31 <andythenorth_> oh wait, wrong game 15:34:02 <andythenorth_> lol the problems we have 15:34:08 <andythenorth_> and the problems in Blitz 15:34:12 <andythenorth_> are so different 15:34:22 <andythenorth_> a 5-min MMORG tank game, made in Belarus 15:34:41 *** k-man has joined #openttd 15:34:51 <andythenorth_> played by children, pepe teenagers, and russian gopniks 15:34:55 <andythenorth_> and men who've been in the army 15:35:03 <andythenorth_> and men who would never ever survive the army, but wish they were hard 15:35:15 <andythenorth_> and then worst of all, people like me 15:35:50 <andythenorth_> they banned most of the user chat recently, which is both great, and takes some of the fun away 15:36:38 <SpComb> cyka blyat 15:36:45 <andythenorth_> cyka 15:36:56 <andythenorth_> noob 15:36:57 <andythenorth_> bot 15:37:03 <andythenorth_> kid 15:37:12 <andythenorth_> lol the people who think 'kid' is this major diss 15:37:24 <andythenorth_> that's how you know they're 13 15:43:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> not major but i guess its somewhat disrespectful 15:44:58 <andythenorth_> well they also say stuff like "I hope you and all your family die" 15:45:11 <andythenorth_> so ya know, as that goes 'kid' is no drama 15:45:27 <andythenorth_> I never know whether the pepe ones are really alt-right, or just out to trigger the libs 15:45:37 <andythenorth_> I bet they don't quite know either 15:45:46 <LordAro> there's a certain amount of thoughtfulness, they did think of your family as well 15:49:18 <CornsMcGowan[m]> pepe faces get used by everybody nowadays 15:49:29 <CornsMcGowan[m]> regardless of political leaning 16:08:03 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:19:28 <CornsMcGowan[m]> what do i use to print to debug? 16:24:27 <LordAro> DEBUG(), funnily enough 16:34:40 <dP> I usually just fprintf(stderr,...) 16:34:50 <LordAro> (so do i) 16:35:40 <dP> works without includes, always know how to use, easy to grep when done 16:38:07 <dP> though for server I have some nice functions with fmt stuff so I don't have to deal with % formatting shit 16:54:42 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 16:54:47 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:02:02 *** Flygon has quit IRC 17:03:43 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:11:08 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:17:37 <dP> crazy idea of the day: make in-game advisor that suggests good money-making options 17:19:59 <frosch123> are you referring to subsidies or to busy bee gs? 17:20:15 <dP> frosch123, god no 17:21:07 <dP> well, I guess subsidies could be an alternative if they actually suggested anything good 17:21:45 <dP> though advisor could work in mp while subsides don't really go well there 17:23:09 <andythenorth_> crazy idea of the day: draw the missing industries for FIRS v4 17:23:11 <andythenorth_> oof :) 17:23:15 * andythenorth_ should do stuff 17:23:18 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:23:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:24:00 *** sadger has joined #openttd 17:24:13 <andythenorth_> also beer? 17:27:59 <Borg> dP: crazy idea indeed... ;) in vanilla OpenTTD making money is damn easy... 17:28:17 <Borg> anyway... 2017... Monorail 17:28:37 <dP> Borg, in any openttd it's easy, but idea is to help new players so they can actually play instead of struggling to survive 17:28:42 <Borg> operating profit... between +330000$ and +87000 yearly... 17:29:09 <Borg> dP: come on.. its a part of a game... 17:29:17 <Borg> few failures.. and boom... you got it.. 17:29:28 <Borg> also there are shitload of game tutorials 17:29:43 <dP> Borg, idk, to me it seems 90% of players newer get past that part 17:30:04 <Borg> really? if they do.. its good they gone ;) 17:30:27 <Borg> but. of coz.. go do it :) if you feel its fine... 17:30:47 <Borg> I strugle.. to make game harder and more interesting.. 17:31:14 <dP> who said I'm going to do it? it's just a crazy idea :p 17:31:27 <Borg> 2 new GS things got my atention for a while :) auto loan + tax 17:31:36 * dP working on 1mil CB server right now 17:31:48 <Borg> CB server? 17:31:56 <Borg> aaa city builder 17:32:08 <Borg> CB = callback server? I was like wtf 17:32:09 <Borg> ;D 17:32:27 <dP> Borg, yeah, you can check it out if you want, it's running on citymania test server 17:32:38 <Borg> I like city builder GS scripts.. kinda nice.. too bad games end so quick ;) 17:32:44 <dP> Borg, only 3 people managed to finish it so far iirc 17:32:55 <Borg> whats goal and limitations? 17:33:02 <Borg> im kinda.. sandbox player... really.. 17:33:07 <Borg> love loooong games.. 17:33:14 <Borg> for me.. game really start after 2001 :D 17:33:19 <Borg> but I usualy start at 1960 17:34:19 <dP> ehm, "sandbox" and "make game harder" are like polar opposites :p 17:34:38 <Borg> ok.. maybe not harder.. but more.. interesting and chalenging.. 17:34:59 <dP> and best score for 1 mil is 9 hours currrently so it's not exactly a short game xD 17:35:11 <dP> though I guess it's doable in like 4 by a good team 17:35:40 <Borg> oh... well.. :) maybe I will take a look. when I will get bored w/ BSPI 17:35:49 <Borg> but I run server for months.... (single game) 17:36:07 <Borg> last game I ended in 2700 or so.. 17:37:29 <nielsm> transport fever 2 released a major update that looks like it has added extensive game scripting support (lua based), so you can add custom behaviour there now 17:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked in a while, but are there curved stations meanwhile (again)? 17:38:20 <Borg> dP: whats server name? 17:38:47 <dP> Borg, well, it's hard to stay focused more than few hours so for competitive game 9 hours is already very long 17:38:48 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: the new scripting probably allows you to generate curved stations dynamically too 17:38:59 <dP> Borg, citymania test 17:39:06 <nielsm> but I haven't looked in detail on it either yet 17:39:13 <Borg> dP: true.. thats why I prefer to play sandbox.. I play openttd to relax.. not to compete.. 17:39:22 <Borg> or.. soft compete.. :) if anything 17:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole station module system looked good on paper, but when playing it wasn't quite right... 17:39:37 <Borg> oh. I need to update openttd... or rather side install 17:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> especially the road stations 17:40:34 <dP> Borg, yeah, a lot of people play like that, pretending to compete but not really :) 17:40:35 <nielsm> yeah the trf2 road stations are annoying to build and the modules don't always do what I expect them to... and the modular stations cause huge updates across the entire map it seems, building a single module freezes the game for far too long 17:42:22 <Wolf01> Bah, again want to do nothing... I'm like worried about getting bored, so I get bored 17:44:33 <dP> oh, another crazy idea I forgot: allow several currencies/resources 17:44:40 <dP> kinda like mashinky 17:45:37 <dP> only for GS I guess 17:45:47 <dP> one example can be energy "coin" 17:46:05 <dP> produced on power plant, used for... something xD 17:46:22 <dP> like, electric trains running cost 17:47:10 <dP> or to make road and rail pieces a limited resource 17:47:29 <dP> or research points... 17:47:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> which of steady clock or high resolution clock should i use? framerate window uses high res but several websites suggest steady clock 17:48:05 <Borg> doh dP .... whats going on there? 17:48:08 <CornsMcGowan[m]> although i dont need much accuracy (loop for 2ms) 17:48:10 <Borg> I see gazylions of industries.... 17:48:46 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], if you're still doing those planner tools you probably better not use any 17:49:07 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], ah, for cutting of pathfinding though... nvm 17:49:30 <nielsm> CornsMcGowan[m]: I think on most implementations high res and steady are the same 17:49:43 <dP> Borg, ehm, stuff xD there is some info in the story book 17:49:44 <CornsMcGowan[m]> mm yeah to only calculate for a certain period per realtime tick 17:49:51 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see 17:49:55 <nielsm> but if you want to measure 2 ms you should use one that has at least microsecond precision 17:50:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> guess i'll follow the precedent set in the codebase (highres) 17:50:59 <Borg> dP: timeout? 17:51:39 <Borg> dP: too dense to my taste.. 17:51:46 <Borg> too many cities.. and industries.. 17:52:08 <dP> Borg, yeah, my vpn is lagging 17:52:15 <dP> Borg, you need a lot of stuff for 1 mil 17:52:18 <Borg> why the hell you play over vpn? ;) 17:52:43 <Borg> dP: I wonder how it would mix w/ BSPI.. :D 17:52:47 <dP> Borg, also makes picking spots a bit more interesting than just sorting industry list by production 17:53:55 <dP> Borg, i do everything over vpn, also it's usually not that bad 17:54:05 <dP> Borg, I've no idea what BSPI does 17:54:47 <Borg> dP: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84735 17:56:50 <dP> Borg, it's hard to understand gameplay implications by just reading 17:57:14 <Borg> yeah.. I read game mechanics... interesting stuff 17:58:16 <Borg> dP: in minial settings.. BSPI should not change much... except it have stockpiling industries... 17:58:39 <nielsm> BSPI forces you to complete the cargo chains since otherwise the stockpiles overflow and you don't get paid for delivery 17:58:46 <Borg> yep.. 17:58:57 <Borg> hence you need to grow ciiities 17:59:12 <Borg> at least to the point they accept goods.. 17:59:38 <Borg> also.. full complete is not that necessary.. you can provide minimal amounts.. and they will vanish at minimum 4% production ;) 17:59:44 <Borg> small profits.. but at begining it will do 17:59:44 <dP> well, usually stuff with its own agenda doesn't mix well with goal games unless they're specifically designed for it 17:59:49 <dP> like cargodist for example 18:00:09 <Borg> yeah.. quite possible.. 18:01:50 <nielsm> BSPI would pair well with a GS that ensures every town with a secondary industry also has a power plant, at the minimum 18:01:54 <dP> I'd like to make some newgrf servers but probably not very soon 18:02:10 <nielsm> and in general something that controls where the secondary industries are placed perhaps 18:02:11 <dP> as imo they should look and feel very different from vanilla and that's a lot of work xD 18:02:38 <dP> nielsm, that's easy 18:02:39 <Borg> nielsm: why? :) 18:02:59 <Borg> nielsm: I fixed it differently.. first.. my GS preseed industries... 18:03:16 <Borg> then.. for 20 years. rebuilds them... after that.. player need to found them constantly.. 18:03:36 <Borg> also... w/ autoloan.. you can build your own powerstation.. if you really need it.. costly.. but.. may pay off 18:03:54 <Borg> auto loan can have limit up to 25M gbp 18:03:59 <Borg> so plenty of money.. 18:04:08 <Borg> but that model is of course fun for sandbox.. 18:04:13 <Borg> not competetive.. 18:05:08 <nielsm> hm, can GS set a company's loan to something wild disregarding the game settings max loan? 18:05:13 <dP> funding stuff isn't an issue in competive 18:05:18 <Borg> nielsm: no.. 18:05:22 <Borg> I do it internally in GS 18:05:25 <dP> even for that 1 mil top players fund a lot 18:05:26 <nielsm> that's silly 18:05:40 <Borg> dont ask me :) 18:06:45 <nielsm> I want to have a subsidy GS where you promise a town to provide a service, get some funds to set up the service (ahead-of-time subsidy), and if you fail to do it then those funds turn into debt 18:07:05 <Borg> hmm douable probably :) 18:08:45 *** b_jonas has joined #openttd 18:09:01 <dP> nielsm, promise a service -> get money -> "local authority refuses to allow this" :p 18:12:29 <dP> also knowing openttd economy best strategy would probably be to get money, spend it elsewhere and pay off the debt xD 18:13:09 <Borg> ;) 18:16:27 <Borg> at one point.. I would like to write some simple city growing script.. for my BSPI games... it will spice games up a bit more... 18:18:24 <dP> hm, I know one reason I'll probably never use bspi on a server... they look vanilla :p 18:19:04 <Borg> they are vanilla... :) I cant do gfx 18:19:22 <dP> Borg, yeah, same 18:19:32 <dP> Borg, I can do whatever mechanics I want, I just need sprites xD 18:19:35 <Borg> BSPI is just logic.. and honestly? I love vanilla gfx.. 18:19:44 <Borg> simple... clear.. 18:20:13 <Borg> I just wanted more complicated logic out there.. for long fun games.. hence BSPI has born.. 18:21:12 <Borg> dP: sprites are not enough :) 18:21:23 <Borg> I tried to improve things... and gfx failed.. miserably ;) 18:22:17 <Borg> NFO can be trickly... 18:22:37 <supermop_Home> do people still buy drobos or other NAS things? 18:23:16 <andythenorth_> I bought one in 2003 18:23:48 <andythenorth_> if I wanted to have the actual files for a lot of HD movies I'd buy one 18:23:51 <andythenorth_> otherwise....why? 18:24:19 <supermop_Home> idk 18:24:29 <andythenorth_> not needed for streaming media 18:24:38 <andythenorth_> useless for backups 18:24:49 <supermop_Home> i do have a fair amount of personal work stuff, psds, rhino models etc, old work samples 18:25:12 <supermop_Home> that i worry about but want to poke around with time to time 18:25:20 <nielsm> yeah creative work is a good use case for NAS 18:25:32 <supermop_Home> would be a bit clunky to have that in cloud 18:25:40 <Borg> for creative work.. best is VFS... 18:25:54 <Borg> but. its just me... 18:26:02 <supermop_Home> usually only access it from one computer, but might occasionally from another 18:26:07 <andythenorth_> if it's purely for archival /recovery backups, they should be on one or more disks in one or more fire safes 18:26:13 <andythenorth_> NAS for backup is nuts 18:26:31 <supermop_Home> nas is maybe the wrong word 18:26:32 <nielsm> NAS for primary storage of stuff that doesn't need to be hot 18:27:05 <nielsm> (stuff that really needs to be hot, like high res video for editing, obviously goes on a local ssd) 18:27:18 <supermop_Home> currently every few years i get worried any buy a new usb external drive, back up most of my stuff, then forget about that drive in a box or drawer 18:27:42 <supermop_Home> what i want is a little box that can do some raid flavor 18:27:46 <Timberwolf> I've pondered one, mainly for FLAC copies of stuff I've got on physical media that's not available on streaming (usually mono versions, things which got remastered badly, things where the licencing situation is [shrug] ) 18:28:14 <supermop_Home> Timberwolf i also have acquired a decent chunk of flac and wavs 18:28:19 <Timberwolf> Currently doing fine with a Pi and a USB HD though. 18:28:23 <supermop_Home> mostly from records 18:29:27 <supermop_Home> i usually would only use mp3s when playing on my phone or computer speakers, but i'd like to keep those larger files accessible for the future 18:29:42 <supermop_Home> likewise for field recordings 18:30:33 <supermop_Home> I've had various 2.5" usb external drives go bad over the years, 18:31:07 <supermop_Home> so currently I've got like a slowly growing and rotating pile of them 18:31:40 <andythenorth_> they're pretty failure prone, especially 2.5" 18:31:50 <supermop_Home> but a raid box with 4-5 bays seems like it would be less of a headache 18:31:53 <andythenorth_> and the enclosures tend to be dirt cheap and prone to failure too 18:32:38 <nielsm> yeah if you want to have a bunch of reliable storage, a synology or qnap NAS bos is a better choice than USB harddrives 18:32:44 <andythenorth_> I bought an nvme enclosure last year 18:32:48 <andythenorth_> USB 3.1 10Gbps 18:32:55 <andythenorth_> it's quite fast as a backup drive 18:33:00 <andythenorth_> it runs hot 18:33:15 <supermop_Home> usb 3 would be fine, the NAS part is less necessary 18:33:15 <andythenorth_> but it would be easy to fit a lot of them into safes / or just hide them 18:33:34 <andythenorth_> using SSD as long-term storage is probably a gamble 18:33:38 <supermop_Home> yeah 18:33:45 <andythenorth_> I don't know the failure rates 18:33:53 <nielsm> def. don't use SSD for storage that will be unplugged for months at a time 18:33:54 <planetmaker> papyrus :) 18:34:13 <supermop_Home> well they will turn to noise if you put them in a safe and forget about them for 2 years 18:34:16 <planetmaker> or stone slabs :P 18:34:24 <nielsm> SSD at modern densities will become difficult to read in 3-6 months and probably unreadable after 12-18 18:34:35 <nielsm> is my random guess 18:34:40 <planetmaker> really, that bad? 18:35:11 <supermop_Home> planetmaker they need regular power 18:35:14 <Borg> nielsm: are you insist that plugged in SSD drive does some kind of refresh? 18:35:23 <nielsm> yes 18:35:26 <b_jonas> nielsm: why is it that bad? SD cards are readable even if they sit for years. 18:35:42 <planetmaker> interesting... I had actually no idea about that property of ssds... good that my backups are magnetic dr4ives 18:36:03 <supermop_Home> don't SD cards have a bigger charge per bit? less dense? 18:36:07 <nielsm> are those SD cards you think of lower capacity cards from 10 years ago, or high capacity cards from the last few years? 18:36:13 <Borg> planetmaker: well.. after very long time.. magnetics drives can fail too.. but its 20+ years.. 18:36:23 <Borg> I mean.. HDDs.. not tapes. 18:36:31 <supermop_Home> a bit on a ssd may just be a few electrons that can get bored and wander off 18:36:31 <b_jonas> supermop_Home: how can they less dense when you can have 128 gigabytes on a microSD card that's the size of my fingernail? 18:36:34 <nielsm> magnetic storage is more reliable for long term 18:36:40 <planetmaker> of course they can. And will. thermodynamics cannot be beaten 18:37:11 <Borg> everything will fail... I saw holographic storage.. in some kind of special glass.. 18:37:16 <b_jonas> nielsm: low capacity ones, I haven't had high capacity ones years ago 18:37:18 <Borg> it should last eons ;) 18:37:19 <nielsm> the major risk of tape storage is really that the tape sticks to itself in the spool... which can be averted by just respooling it once in a while 18:37:27 <Borg> but we dont need such storage.. for our personal stuff 18:37:37 <b_jonas> obviously everything will fail, I'm just asking about the specific matters of scale 18:37:54 <supermop_Home> i mostly want my stuff not to fail on a 10 year scale 18:38:09 <Borg> supermop_Home: same here. hence.. I still use spinning rust 18:38:11 <planetmaker> I'd like my stuff to not fail in my lifetime :P Preferentially 18:38:19 <supermop_Home> often i go looking for old work from architecture school, every few years 18:38:19 <Borg> distributed... as well 18:38:22 <planetmaker> but 10 years seems fair 18:38:36 <planetmaker> after 10 years you might have connection issues anyhow... 18:38:37 <b_jonas> Borg: does respooling actually help? doesn't it get sticky because water or some other damaging substance gets into it, which you would just accelerate if you got it out of the cupboard and respooled it? 18:38:38 <supermop_Home> it seems each time i look another few things are lost 18:38:59 <Borg> b_jonas: what are you talk about? that glass thingie? 18:39:11 <b_jonas> ah sorry, misping 18:39:18 <b_jonas> nielsm: does respooling actually help? doesn't it get sticky because water or some other damaging substance gets into it, which you would just accelerate if you got it out of the cupboard and respooled it? 18:39:18 <supermop_Home> planetmaker well if it lasts 5 years, and i rememeber to refresh or maintain it every 2 years, i'll be ok 18:39:24 <b_jonas> Borg: magnetic tape storage 18:39:33 <nielsm> anyway yes, flash memory cells store data by being in a non-natural state of kind, and that will slowly normalize if it doesn't get erased and rewritten 18:39:40 <planetmaker> supermop_Home, yes, the point is "if I remember" :) 18:39:59 <supermop_Home> but its pretty easy for me to go 12 months forgetting about one of a handful of drives in shoebox on top of a shelf... 18:40:04 <Borg> b_jonas: tapes last longer that HDDs.. afaik.. less density.. different encoding.. stronger signals.. 18:40:20 <b_jonas> Borg: sure 18:40:26 <planetmaker> nielsm, magnetic tapes somewhat do that, too. Just magnetic order used on discs decays slower 18:40:30 <planetmaker> or so we hope :) 18:40:34 <nielsm> and flash memory used as multilevel (storing 2, 3 or 4 bits per cell) is even more prone to data loss 18:40:38 <supermop_Home> 1 or 2 boxes of dives that will let me know when a drive is going bad, would help a lot 18:40:44 * andythenorth_ read about SSD retention 18:41:06 <andythenorth_> it would be unwise to trust one beyond 2 years unplugged in northern european temperaturs 18:41:14 <andythenorth_> 1 year in southern european temperatures 18:41:22 <andythenorth_> also "don't panic" 18:41:22 <supermop_Home> whether the drives inside are ssd or iron doesn't matter to me if they let me know when they are failing 18:41:25 <Borg> storing data on any storage is one thing.. storing it correctly (right software.. checksums.. validation.. is different) 18:41:42 <supermop_Home> i just want the best box to put the drives in 18:41:49 <nielsm> if you want data to last, rewriting it to new media on the regular is really the only way 18:42:02 <nielsm> and keeping context to understand the data :) 18:42:15 <planetmaker> very much indeed 18:42:43 <supermop_Home> sinology or qnap recommened? 18:43:23 <nielsm> I have a synology but don't take that as a recommendation in particular 18:43:31 <nielsm> it works fine 18:43:49 <nielsm> I'm quite sure QNAP also works fine 18:45:08 <andythenorth_> _most_ things are pretty commodity now 18:45:17 * andythenorth_ gets caught out sometimes when they're not 18:46:44 <supermop_Home> well best buy doesn't have much with 4 holes available for same day pick up here in the city 18:46:58 <supermop_Home> so i might as well order whatever online 18:49:19 <nielsm> beware that synology will probably auto-configure whatever disks you install into it into some RAID-5 or 6 setup for you, make sure the disk configuration is what you want before starting to store data ;) 18:51:17 <nielsm> and keep in mind that math shows that RAID-5 and RAID-6 are not terribly safe for disks larger than 2 TB or so, simply due to reconstruction times when one disk fails likely being longer than the time before the risk another disk fails... or something like that 18:51:44 <nielsm> can't remember the exact argument, but after some particular size it's better to do "something else" 18:52:08 <nielsm> (likely just having multiple backups) 18:52:32 <Borg> or distributed storage ;) 18:52:53 <Borg> always wanted to have such thing.. but for personal usage. its kinda too expensive to have something like MooseFS 18:54:50 <supermop_Home> nielsm nested raid levels? 18:57:23 *** sadger has quit IRC 18:57:29 *** sadger has joined #openttd 18:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i had a "disk full" issue with my SSD where i have some games and the steam workshop on... download size was 1.9GB, of which it already downloaded 400MB. so i made space for 3.6GB, and the disk is now full again at 1.4GB out of 1.9GB 19:02:40 <nielsm> supermop_Home, with 1+0 when one disk fails, the next disk failure could either cause total loss or just another degradation, so it's kind of a gamble too 19:04:03 <michi_cc> Inodes full? 19:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unlikely 19:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a particularly big SSD anyway 19:06:05 <frosch123> "df -ih" tells you 19:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> 6% 19:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> used 19:11:15 *** Westie has quit IRC 19:19:02 *** y2kboy23 has quit IRC 19:19:13 *** y2kboy23 has joined #openttd 19:29:42 *** dvim has joined #openttd 19:29:58 *** innocenat_ has joined #openttd 19:47:24 *** blathijs has quit IRC 19:48:10 *** blathijs has joined #openttd 20:00:57 <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm, code works fine on release build but fails assert in debug build 20:01:48 <frosch123> that's because assertions are disabled in release build 20:02:04 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah 20:02:34 <CornsMcGowan[m]> am i using this vector improperly then 20:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> now, i've 8GB free, let's try again :p 20:07:40 <CornsMcGowan[m]> is delete(*myVector.end()) dodgy? 20:07:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh is end() a null element 20:08:31 <nielsm> yes end is one-past-last 20:09:05 <nielsm> so when begin()==end() the container is empty 20:09:22 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah 20:09:32 <CornsMcGowan[m]> how should i call delete() over each element in a vector then :0 20:09:55 <nielsm> if you want to clear the vector then use clear() 20:10:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i see, but its a vector of pointers, i also want to call delete() on each element first 20:10:39 <nielsm> or wait do you have a vector of pointers and you want to delete the pointed-to objects? 20:10:45 <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah 20:10:59 <frosch123> use unique_ptr 20:11:00 <nielsm> make it a vector of std::unique_ptr 20:11:30 <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0 okay 20:11:32 <dP> or just for (auto x : v) delete x; 20:11:48 <frosch123> dP: that's the bad answer 20:12:05 <nielsm> avoid manual memory management when possible 20:12:46 <dP> depends... 20:12:57 <dP> I'd agree if smart pointers in c++ weren't such a mess 20:13:11 <dP> also it's a weird statement in openttd context :p 20:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> now, after it finished the rest of the 1.9GB, i now have 6GB free 20:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess steam workshop works in mysterious ways 20:13:37 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just delete all those "train movies" 20:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: completely unrelated :p 20:21:01 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:22:10 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man im too tired to wrap my head around unique_ptr at the moment 20:23:26 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:24:23 <CornsMcGowan[m]> trying to implement it in the context of A* search, to delete nodes when no longer needed, and im tossing up between a vector of all nodes or using the two sets (openset and closedset) to manage the unique_ptr since a node can only be in one set anyway 20:26:08 <nielsm> you use std::move() to take a unique_ptr value and move it to a different unique_ptr 20:26:16 *** colde has joined #openttd 20:27:01 <nielsm> closedset.push_back(std::move(openset[3])); openset.erase(openset.begin()+3); 20:27:03 <nielsm> iirc 20:27:43 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], why do you even need dynamic allocation for that? 20:27:51 <dP> besides vector ofc 20:33:02 *** blathijs has quit IRC 20:34:35 *** blathijs has joined #openttd 20:36:39 <supermop_Home> well i just bought another whatever external 20:37:04 *** Borg has quit IRC 20:37:07 <supermop_Home> so if my laptop gets destroyed while i'm travelling this weekend at least i'll have that 20:38:25 <supermop_Home> who uses these bare HDD docks? 20:38:59 <nielsm> techs that need to clone disks and such? 20:39:40 <nielsm> or if you use disks for cold-storage backup medium 20:44:54 <andythenorth_> I have a HDD bare dock 20:45:00 <andythenorth_> amongst other things 20:45:18 <supermop_Home> i have a usb to sata cable somewhere 20:45:21 <andythenorth_> I back up to both SSD and spinning disk sporadically 20:45:54 <andythenorth_> recently my most successful backup strategy has been getting one of my slightly older laptops 20:46:13 <andythenorth_> :P 20:53:44 <supermop_Home> raid still is limited by smallest disk, right? 20:54:14 <supermop_Home> like if i have 3 4TB drives and one 25 GB drive, it's just going to think its 4 25 GB drives? 20:59:40 <nielsm> with classic hardware raid, yes 21:00:04 <nielsm> with software raid you can typically use the "extra" space on the larger drives for other things 21:01:18 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 21:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking of getting 2 bigger disks, then combining 2 of my smaller disks as one bigger disk (raid0) and then use those virtual bigger disks along the new disks as raid5 21:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's probably TMWFTLB 21:03:01 <supermop_Home> maybe i can re use a few of these 1 TB 2.5" disks i have laying around 21:03:44 <supermop_Home> or if there was some kind of raid usb hub i could just plug them all into 21:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> software raid doesn't care if it's usb or sata or whatever 21:04:23 <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause yeah, probably the time to spend on it is worth more that the cost of just buying 1-2 more big disks 21:06:43 *** sadger has quit IRC 21:08:20 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:11:50 *** m1cr0man has quit IRC 21:25:02 *** m1cr0man has joined #openttd 21:31:53 <supermop_Home> the have a RAID F1 now... 21:32:34 <supermop_Home> which is just raid 5 but it rides one drive into the ground so that it fails before the others.... 21:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds not very intelligent :p 21:42:23 <supermop_Home> i guess the idea is that by favoring use of one drive and having it fail first, at least you likely wont have all your drives failing at the same time 21:42:52 <supermop_Home> just 1 drive fails this year and the other 3 fail at the same time next year? 21:51:15 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:52:50 <SpComb> you just need to build your disk arrays out of different disk models by different manufacturers :P 21:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: but if the drive that fails because of manufacturing deficits isn't the same as the one that is over-used, then you've got two problems 21:53:10 <SpComb> or someone could start selling pre-aged disks for use in raid arrays... 21:53:16 <supermop_Home> haha 21:53:28 <supermop_Home> barrel aged HDD 21:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just replace the drives before they fail 21:53:51 <SpComb> idea being to ensure failures are non-correlated 21:53:57 <supermop_Home> this HDD was aged in sherry casks 21:54:26 <supermop_Home> "... also it is already failed because it is soaked in sherry" 21:54:28 <SpComb> yeah, one approach would be to pre-emptively rotate out disks 21:55:07 <SpComb> I'm sure some people that take their RAID arrays seriously do that 21:55:19 <SpComb> meanwhile, how often do you actually test your backups... 21:55:34 <supermop_Home> on the order of years 21:56:11 <supermop_Home> I've actually only had one hdd failure in a computer i used in the past 20 years 21:56:29 <supermop_Home> and that was some RAID 0 situation 21:56:38 <supermop_Home> in like 2007 21:57:09 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:57:33 <supermop_Home> i've had more issues with an old external hard drive i haven't looked at in a few years having a bunch of corrupt files on it 21:57:46 <supermop_Home> but again like 3 times in 20 years, 21:57:53 <b_jonas> I should pay more attention to situations where a bridge works but a tunnel would work better, to build tunnels. I default to bridges most of the time. 21:58:12 <supermop_Home> and usually there is another old hard drive in the shoebox that might have that file on it 21:58:55 <supermop_Home> but i feel like i should be taking a more careful approach 21:59:42 <SpComb> I have a fancy ZFS setup with all kinds of snapshot replication, but uh never got around to actually implementing some kind of active monitoring 21:59:46 <b_jonas> argh, my service to this station is so good that trains keep coming in and it's never empty, and I want to modify its setup but the trains are in the way 22:00:20 <SpComb> sure you get an email from cron if the replication jobs fail, but if the backup job never runs, then you don't get any email... 22:00:30 <nielsm> manually stop a train so it blocks the track entering the station 22:01:10 <b_jonas> yeah, I'll have to order some trains into depots 22:01:17 <b_jonas> that doesn't often happen 22:01:31 <b_jonas> admittedly I use build while paused 22:02:34 <b_jonas> ideally I'd like a selective area dynamite tool, where I can pick checkboxes for what I want to delete/destroy and what I want to keep 22:04:29 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 22:16:32 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:16:32 <b_jonas> ok, let's see if this works. I have a terminus station at the large oil wells where the triple main lines goes to, and now I converted the entrance to a compact two-bridge shuffler so that one train from each of the three lines can independently enter and exit on a corresponding line 22:16:46 <b_jonas> without blocking each other 22:17:33 <b_jonas> at least that's the theory, I'll see if trains actually behave that way 22:18:13 <b_jonas> it's a compact design, so if this works, I should try something similar in other stations with high traffic 22:24:47 *** b_jonas_ has joined #openttd 22:26:32 *** b_jonas has quit IRC 22:29:09 *** b_jonas_ is now known as b_jonas 23:13:37 *** keoz has quit IRC 23:38:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 23:39:25 <b_jonas> is the largest town building in the default grf 2x2 sized?