Log for #openttd on 17th July 2020:
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01:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> ... no?
01:25:28  <Gadg8eer> So... I found out something that may have been overlooked in implementing NRT.
01:27:45  <Gadg8eer> powered_roadtype_list (and NFO equivalent) has outbound compatibility but not inbound compatibility. Which means that I was able to make the Utility Roadtype Set compatible with all other roadtype sets, but only Ufiby can make URaTT compatible with other roadtype sets, and only Andrew350 can make RaTT compatible with other roadtype sets.
01:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're requiring backchanneling to every sentence, you've made a poor choice in communication medium
01:28:22  <Gadg8eer> Backchanneling?
01:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that's when you talk to someone and they say "yes", "hm", "ok", "and then?"
01:29:22  <Gadg8eer> Sorry, I just don't have my PC connected to IRC at all times.
01:29:42  <Gadg8eer> So I say something and then miss the response.
01:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i'm saying. most likely there won't be any response...
01:31:38  <Gadg8eer> Anyway, like I said, NRT is only "outbound compatible". If someone wants vehicles for ROAD to run on a roadtype they created, they have to contact the creators of every NewGRF that replaces ROAD via NRT and then hope the creator will accomodate them.
01:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds backwards
01:32:41  <Gadg8eer> It is, but I tested it. It's totally true.
01:33:59  <Gadg8eer> Okay, maybe "totally" was a bad choice of words. I tested it, it's completely true.
01:35:38  <Gadg8eer> I can provide source code for you to compare against other roadtypes' source if you want.
01:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help you with that, but the original railtype specs were never designed with multiple track sets loaded at the same time in mind
01:36:14  <Gadg8eer> Yes, but railtypes have inbound compatibility.
01:37:14  <Gadg8eer> You can add the RAIL railtype to TEST's "compatible_railtype_list" and all trains for RAIL will work on TEST.
01:37:51  <Gadg8eer> Otherwise it would be impossible to have mixed-guage railtypes.
01:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be different for roads?
01:38:04  <Gadg8eer> I'm not sure.
01:38:18  <Gadg8eer> All I know is I tested it and I'm telling the truth.
01:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's never a convincing sentence by itself
01:39:21  <Gadg8eer> Try using RaTT or URaTT with Utility Roadtype Set and Utility Truck Set.
01:39:22  <b_jonas> there are road types besides the two basic ones too now?
01:39:46  <b_jonas> I knew that openttd now supports more than four rail types in a game, but not about the road types
01:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: i'm not going to try anything.
01:40:38  <Gadg8eer> Sorry, forgot to say eGRVTS2. Use the NRT version of eGRVTS2 and the Utility Truck Set with the Utility Roadtype Set and either URaTT or RaTT. Or don't, but I'm telling you it's true.
01:41:12  <Gadg8eer> It might be that "powered_railtype_list" is outbound and "compatible_railtype_list" is inbound, but only "powered_roadtype_list" exists for NRT.
01:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is nonsense
01:42:18  <Gadg8eer> And yes, there are now more roadtypes. There's like six original NRT roadsets and 5 "trimmed down" roadsets I made because there's only room for 64 roadtypes.
01:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "powered" is for vehicles that drive by themselves (engines), and "compatible" is for vehicles being dragged along (wagons)
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01:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> since all road vehicles are engines, "compatible" is meaningless and omitted
01:43:01  <Gadg8eer> Look, I'm not trying to lie about this. If you want, I can record a video that shows what's happening.
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01:43:41  <Gadg8eer> I'm serious. Compatibility for NRT is outbound.
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01:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: you should probably write a ticket. and find out whether the spec is wrong, or the implementation
01:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: and make a minimal testcase
01:46:16  <Gadg8eer> The wiki actually backs me up.
01:46:57  <Gadg8eer> That's the spec, right?
01:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no, NFO is the "master" spec
01:48:17  <Gadg8eer> The NML spec says it works the way I described. The game works as described when tested.
01:48:35  <Gadg8eer> And every NRT GRF is coded in NML.
01:49:43  <Gadg8eer> I understand if the NFO spec is more important, but I've never really dealt with NFO so please explain further.
01:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: the question is what you want us to do: change the specs to match your expectations, or change the implementation to match the specs
01:52:11  <Gadg8eer> The implementation already matches the specs. My expectations are that I shouldn't have to pester someone in order to have my NewGRFs compatible with theirs.
01:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if the implementation matches the specs, this means you need a really convincing argument (and i'm not the person you need to convince)
01:53:58  <Gadg8eer> Look, for just a moment, can you put aside the infallability of the OpenTTD Devs and assume they overlooked the fact that the NewGRF that replaces ROAD is the one which gives the NewGRF's creator power over other NRT NewGRFs?
01:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i said everything that i can say.
01:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> take it or leave it
01:55:11  <Gadg8eer> What is wrong with you?! I told you, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental, NRT has outbound compatibility.
01:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, look. i'm saying this just once over: 1) write a ticket, 2) make a minimal test case, 3) have a good argument
01:56:27  <Gadg8eer> Alright, fair enough.
01:56:36  <Gadg8eer> Where can I write a ticket?
01:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> on
02:07:00  <Gadg8eer> Is there a specific section for NRT, or should I just submit the ticket under Issues?
02:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause> probably just submit it
02:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> also remember that conversations on IRC are fleeting, so any important points you brought up here you need to bring up again in the ticket, or they will be lost
02:25:51  <glx> as I understand the specs, is exactly like
02:31:57  <glx> but a flaw in nml implementation is possible
02:36:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gadg8eer opened issue #8275: NRT uses "backwards" roadtype intercompatibility
02:37:10  <Gadg8eer> Whoops. Should I mention it's an issue with NML? Should I submit the issue under NML instead of OpenTTD?
02:37:47  <glx> openttd implementation may be wrong too
02:38:49  <Gadg8eer> Alright, thanks.
02:45:07  <glx> " If you want road vehicles of other road types to be able to run on your road types, you must set the powered road types property for each road type. Setting these properties behaves always incremental, so you only need to the set additional bits for each other road type, you cannot remove poweredness once it is set (by some other grf)."
02:45:59  <glx> so basically you just need to update ROAD definition in your grf
02:58:00  <Gadg8eer> Oh. Well I wish someone had told me that earlier. Thank you!
02:58:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gadg8eer commented on issue #8275: NRT uses "backwards" roadtype intercompatibility, at least in NML
02:59:51  <glx> as often nml doc is less informative than the full spec
03:03:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i still haven't figured out how to make money in tropico...
03:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i've arrived in modern times, and since then i'm only losing money
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03:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's 5 attempts... i think i should quit
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10:08:13  <_dp_> Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that one day my openttd debug output would look like this:
10:08:40  <CornsMcGowan[m]> christ what are you doing
10:09:03  <CornsMcGowan[m]> is this for citymania shenanigans?
10:09:08  <CornsMcGowan[m]> something to do with town spacing is my guess
10:10:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> at when exactly (from/to) does cargo ageing applies?
10:10:30  <CornsMcGowan[m]> disregard that poor grammar
10:10:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also how does it work together with transfer orders?
10:14:45  <argoneus> which troico Eddi|zuHause
10:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 6
10:15:47  <argoneus> im considering getting into it but not sure if i shoud get 6 or 4
10:17:15  <argoneus> i guess ill get 4 considering it's a lot cheaper
10:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, 6 was on a free weekend last week
10:26:51  <LordAro> _dp_: that is a thing
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10:44:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8267: Extend viewport renaming PR to include Squirrel API
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13:22:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8272: Stopped vehicule destination should be red when mouse over
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20:14:27  <supermop_Home_> boring day in this channel I guess
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20:39:40  <Wolf01> Heh...
20:39:55  <Wolf01> Cat is missing
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21:00:59  <_dp_> looking for a better grass color...
21:01:15  <_dp_> default grass doesn't go well with snow :(
21:03:50  <_dp_> probably shouldn't do that on night mode xD
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22:18:33  <GT> So, after 13 years, no 32bpp screenshot ever won the Screenshot of the Month competition. Should we remove it?
22:25:59  <GT> Or are the 32bpp .grfs just too ugly?
22:32:13  <_dp_> I'm not following screenshot competitions but I'm yet to see any good 32bpp combo. What I've seen is either straight up shit or is mixed with 8bpp so also looks meh.
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22:39:32  <GT> Yeah, mixing with 8bpp is ugly, I agree. Perhaps because not everything is available in 32bpp. But take this example: . What part would you cal l straight up shit?
22:40:14  <glx> the buttons ;)
22:41:19  <GT> :-) absolutely true. I think abase tried to do something about it. Not sure if it was better.
22:42:05  <glx> I'm still using original gfx
22:45:41  <GT> Yes, many people do. And it's everybody's personal choice. But 32 bpp in trunk (or master or whatever it is called these days) . But what is it that people don't like about 32bpp exactly?
22:46:30  <glx> I think the main issue with 32bpp is that most grf are still 8bpp only
22:49:07  <GT> Yes, that is quite disappointing. I have not been around for 8 years or so. At that time many tars were available, and Rubidium ever provided a script to convert from pngcodec'ed tars to grf. But very little tars were actually converted since then.
22:49:20  <glx> and I'm used to original GUI, opengfx sprites don't look bad, but I don't like the GUI
22:49:25  <GT> *ever->even
22:51:25  <_dp_> GT, that screenshot is just a mismatched mix imo. toyish buildings with realistic trees and 8bpp landscape
22:55:47  <glx> landscape is definitely 32bpp in the screenshot
22:55:58  <glx> just look at the fields
22:56:37  <_dp_> idk, mb it is 32bpp but looks low res
22:56:53  <_dp_> empty grass doesn't even match grass under rails
22:57:19  <glx> same for the roads
22:58:52  <glx> water looks bad too
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23:06:34  <GT> I agree on most of your remark. Just trying to find the problem spots, so it can be improved. Personally I would add that the rail track are too bland, and that the small houses at the left of the flats of Keningbury are not very nice.
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