Log for #openttd on 2nd August 2020:
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07:13:14  <andythenorth> o/
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08:31:17  <andythenorth> hmm
08:31:23  <andythenorth> company colour per vehicle? o_O
08:31:26  <andythenorth> how many bits is that?
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08:58:19  * andythenorth wonders what happens if -ve HP is set for an engine
08:58:23  <andythenorth> 'overflow' :D
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09:14:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: LordAro: do you want to do an interview with ?
09:15:06  <andythenorth> subject is? o_O
09:15:11  <frosch123> they call themself "UK Youth Arts Magazine"
09:17:26  <andythenorth> sort of tempting, but I can't be arsed :)
09:17:37  <andythenorth> I am desperately avoiding all obligations these days :)
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10:01:10  <TrueBrain> you can also sponsor an online radio station if you like!
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10:19:14  * andythenorth painting trains :P
10:19:16  <andythenorth> too busy :P
10:20:14  <frosch123> the interviewer studied music. you could convice them to switch to a different field of arts
10:21:36  <andythenorth> they should interview nielsm about midi players
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10:39:06  <andythenorth> frosch123 this probably would work btw :P
10:39:15  <andythenorth> for multiple cases I thought of
10:39:27  <andythenorth> it wouldn't solve Eddi's problem
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10:42:05  <frosch123> how to we make eddi do that interview?
10:42:13  <andythenorth> eddi on a podcast?
10:42:40  <frosch123> he can talk about his internet 80% of the time
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10:48:57  <andythenorth> how many kittens will I kill if I ship a GS depending on a FIRS version :P
10:49:19  * andythenorth just hates pressing 'newgame' until the right random cargos are chosen in all the current GS
10:56:59  <TrueBrain> funny .... my 2GB WSL2 sometimes hit the memory limit while compiling rust applications
10:57:00  <TrueBrain> unexpected
10:57:17  <andythenorth> get MOAR
10:57:31  <andythenorth> there is a fly here, I have been trying to kill it since yesterday
10:57:37  <andythenorth> the buzzing triggers me a little bit
10:58:22  <TrueBrain> ah, the rust-language-server is consuming 1.5GB .. like it is nothing
10:59:27  <TrueBrain> that moment you search for it, and it turns out to be a bug from 2018 ..
11:12:22  <andythenorth> possibly I am a bug from 1978
11:12:45  <andythenorth> committed in 1977 probably, but didn't manifest in production until 1978
11:13:06  <TrueBrain> that is one disgusting way to think about child birth :P
11:14:17  <andythenorth> seems quite a natural model to me :P
11:14:40  <andythenorth> I have been involved in child birth, more than once even
11:15:03  <TrueBrain> you consider that bugs too? :P
11:15:12  <andythenorth> too early to tell
11:15:20  <andythenorth> I can tell you that the maintainers have made mistakes
11:26:28  <andythenorth> straw poll, how many times will you cursor up in shell to avoid retyping a command? :P
11:30:38  <debdog> ctrl-r
11:34:04  <frosch123> problem is that cursor-up works different in bash and in windows shell
11:36:42  <andythenorth> occasionally I do git reset --hard by accident due to my laziness for typing :)
11:36:49  <andythenorth> those are sad moments :D
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11:49:00  <andythenorth> so do we have any square glyph?
11:49:16  <andythenorth> I might put company colour hints into buy menu extra text
11:56:05  <andythenorth> we have a little train maybe
11:57:28  <andythenorth> oh company colours don't map 1:1 string code colours :D nvm
11:57:33  <frosch123> textcolours do not match company colours
11:57:35  <andythenorth> idea probably looked bad anyway
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12:33:05  <TrueBrain> Rust language is funny, but a lot of things are completely different from most other languages ..
12:33:10  <TrueBrain> when are we going to port OpenTTD to Rust? :P
12:35:25  <andythenorth> after we've ported it to WASM?
12:36:32  <_dp_> not it, first embed wasm, port all mods to rust, then the rest of the game :p
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12:39:49  <TrueBrain> massif is a nice tool, never used it before, but .. that gives nice insight in memory usage of an application
12:41:29  <andythenorth> 'Rust has been the "most loved programming language" in the Stack Overflow Developer Survey every year since 2016'
12:43:29  <TrueBrain> "love" might not be the right word ...
12:43:35  <TrueBrain> love&hate, might be the better description :P
12:43:45  <_dp_> it's an awesome language but a mindfuck to learn
12:44:10  <TrueBrain> ^^
12:44:25  <TrueBrain> their way of dealing with pointers is .. a-typical
12:44:32  <TrueBrain> and everyone describing it, fails kinda bad :P
12:46:08  <_dp_> but it fixes memory issues at compilation instead of debugging :p
12:46:39  <TrueBrain> it is very often completely unclear if your memory is being copied or not
12:47:32  <_dp_> in rust it rarely copies anything iirc
12:47:51  <TrueBrain> for example, I have a Box<Node>, where Node is a struct. I want to put it on a list, and I want to examine it .. it is such a mindfuck that if you put it on the list, you can no longer examine it, unless you put a reference on the list
12:48:04  <TrueBrain> in C it is much more obvious when you put the pointer on a list, or the object
12:49:01  <TrueBrain> especially as the error is something about "lifetime" :P (it takes a bit of time to understand what the hell it is talking about)
12:49:52  <TrueBrain> and "match" is just REALLY weird to see in a language :)
12:49:57  <TrueBrain> like, seriously, it is weird
12:50:02  <TrueBrain> useful, nevertheless, but weird
12:58:18  <_dp_> in c it's just implicit
12:58:28  <_dp_> lifetime ends where you put free()
12:58:55  <_dp_> and if you don't, well, those gigs of ram ain't there for nothing :p
13:02:09  <TrueBrain> yup
13:02:17  <TrueBrain> and lifetime in Rust is a bit weird at first
13:02:19  <TrueBrain> "after last use"
13:02:28  <TrueBrain> which  .. feels ... weird if you come from C
13:02:45  <TrueBrain> which also gives a ton of choices
13:03:21  <TrueBrain> take the cli argument I have .. do I give it to the subfunction, or do I keep ownership .. it changes when the argument is free'd .. which is a weird way of thinking about it
13:03:41  <TrueBrain> (if I keep ownership, it is free'd after the subfunction; if I give it to the subfunction, it is free'd after last us in the subfunction)
13:06:24  <_dp_> well, my rust knowledge stops about where I more or less figured how lifetimes work but have no idea how to design a program like that xD
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13:06:35  <_dp_> there is like a book on how to make linked list in rust :/
13:06:49  <TrueBrain> I am figuring it out as I go ... pretty sure the code sucks balls :P
13:08:16  <_dp_> at some point I felt like you end up making a storage anyway and now instead of pointers you have indexes which are pretty much the same thing anyway
13:08:29  <_dp_> though openttd does that in c++ as well :p
13:08:59  <TrueBrain> the main thing I currently like about Rust, is that you cannot cheat between types
13:09:30  <TrueBrain> most things are very explicit, or obvious to the reader
13:09:54  <TrueBrain> I also noticed you very quickly learn to avoid using Option<>, as it sucks balls :P
13:09:58  <_dp_> sometimes I fell like they're too explicit
13:10:11  <_dp_> end up with a lot of usize-u64 conversions and such
13:10:15  <TrueBrain> I miss a few pythonic thingies, like default kwargs :P
13:10:31  <TrueBrain> ugh, yeah, the conversions are everywhere if you are not careful
13:10:52  <TrueBrain> Ok(self.read_u8(address)? as u16 + ((self.read_u8(address + 1)? as u16) << 8))
13:10:57  <TrueBrain> one of my favorites so far
13:11:19  <_dp_> also half of the libs use f32, other half f64, whichever you chose you're stuck with billion conversions
13:11:25  <TrueBrain> and questionmarks EVERYWHERE :P
13:12:09  <frosch123> does porting ottd gui to qt move it closer to rust or to wasm, or more far away?
13:12:30  <TrueBrain> Rust has binding with ... EVERYTHING
13:12:58  <TrueBrain> but I believe gtk is the "most common" for rust
13:13:23  <_dp_> because qt is c++ and nothing binds well with that :p
13:13:37  <TrueBrain> fair point :)
13:14:18  <TrueBrain> I am very curious about the Rust bindings with Python .. from what I read, you can execute Python code pretty decent from Rust, so I will venture in that domain :P
13:14:44  <_dp_> why would you want to though?
13:15:06  <_dp_> other way around makes more sense to me tbh
13:15:13  <_dp_> I think I even tried that at some point
13:15:32  <TrueBrain> it is because of the project I am working on, that it make sense .. normally I would fully agree with you
13:15:37  <TrueBrain> for now I have this syntax:
13:15:37  <TrueBrain>
13:15:43  <TrueBrain> that is not .. really .. human readable
13:15:58  <TrueBrain> so I think I will convert it to Python, making it more readable :)
13:16:34  <andythenorth> @seen FLHerne
13:16:35  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: FLHerne was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, 26 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true
13:16:45  <TrueBrain> famous last words? :D
13:17:28  <andythenorth> "I'm just going to press this button"
13:17:52  <frosch123> "the door bell rang"
13:18:42  <TrueBrain> I was refering to the "I'm not sure that's true"
13:22:59  <andythenorth> I know :)
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14:29:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8288: Fix: sprite preview in sprite aligner is too small with scaled UI
14:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a game like "don't press this button"?
14:37:25  <andythenorth> probably many
14:37:44  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ you playing Horse?
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15:03:26  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: global thermonuclear war. the only winning move is not to play.
15:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: doesn't really work for this...
15:05:31  <andythenorth> GS?
15:05:47  <andythenorth> did we do buttons for GS yet?
15:05:58  <andythenorth> Nuke mode seems like it would be something GS *can* do
15:06:20  <_dp_> exept it won't destroy anything :P
15:09:35  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth yes
15:10:08  <supermop_Home_> but i am distracted try to get a suburban DMU line set up so i only have one RFD train going
15:10:28  <andythenorth> want a new version?  It's probably savegame safe
15:10:33  <andythenorth> few of the sprites are finished
15:12:07  <andythenorth>
15:15:48  <supermop_Home_> yay
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15:55:50  <andythenorth> 'deliver cargo x to every town on the map' as a GS goal?
15:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds boring...
16:03:30  <andythenorth> might be fun once
16:03:44  <andythenorth> I doubt it has replayability
16:04:39  <_dp_> may work for subgoal like engine unlock or smth
16:05:03  <andythenorth> I think it tends towards an RV network
16:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there's really 3 basic ways for a GS to operate: 1) provide short-term goals for quick games, 2) provide a progression of short-term goals for long games, or 3) provide some kind of narrative thread to play along
16:05:35  <_dp_> yeah, probably, just road it all across and broadcast rvs...
16:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> like, you could start with only primary industries on a map, and give the player some transportation goals to spawn a secondary industry
16:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and when that secondary industry is sufficiently supplied, it spawns another industry further down the chain
16:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
16:10:26  <andythenorth> 3) is not possible currently
16:10:34  <andythenorth> 2) is Busy Bee
16:10:49  <andythenorth> you missed the straightforward long-play cargo goals
16:11:00  <andythenorth> 4) provide linear goals that take a long time
16:11:30  <b_jonas> I just like the sandbox aspect, I don't want goals, except maybe easy goals for a tutorial
16:11:42  <b_jonas> I want to build networks where I choose the goals
16:12:02  * andythenorth wonders what order of complexity calculating industry chains is from scratch
16:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree
16:12:46  <andythenorth> for 3)?
16:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: both on your judgement of 3) and your proposed 4)
16:13:05  <andythenorth> 4) is empirical not proposed
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16:13:18  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal both meet 4)
16:13:26  <andythenorth> how much have you played GS eddi :)
16:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just an overextended case of 1)
16:13:59  <andythenorth> well if it's just semantics about long vs short
16:14:14  <andythenorth> but a silicon valley game does not qualify as 'short' IMHO
16:14:27  <andythenorth> and it has a back story, but there's no narrative development
16:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> there's "short stories" that are 300 pages long... doesn't make them "long stories"
16:14:47  <andythenorth> ok, so SV has a single narrative step
16:15:00  <andythenorth> there's no stages, no progression, no new plot developments
16:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
16:15:17  <andythenorth> ok I accept those terms
16:15:21  <andythenorth> how to do 3?
16:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 3) is probably better suited for scenarios... like this idea of US westward expansion
16:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the transport fever scenarios fall in this category
16:18:25  <andythenorth> those I think are out of scope
16:18:31  <andythenorth> as GS is blind to the game content
16:18:47  <andythenorth> it's very hard to do a story with anonymous characters
16:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> tropico works a bit along those lines
16:19:19  <andythenorth> I think stuff that can be done is things like 'You have one city, grow it by 5k for a new train'
16:19:33  <andythenorth> I suspect this explains why nearly all GS are city builders
16:19:45  <andythenorth> GS is blind to the actual economy, and newgrf can't control cities
16:19:58  <andythenorth> so each finds a niche?
16:20:14  <_dp_> I though of doing server that starts with "you have a horse and 1000$ debt"
16:20:20  <andythenorth> nice opening line
16:20:22  <andythenorth> 'go north'
16:20:42  <andythenorth> 'There is a sad-looking dwarf here.  On the ground is a spoon'
16:20:54  <b_jonas> a horse and 1000$ of debt can work as the opening for a game, but I'm not sure it works for openttd
16:20:55  <andythenorth> [verb] [noun]
16:21:04  <b_jonas> look spoon
16:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you've bean eaten by a grue
16:21:20  <andythenorth> 'The spoon is an illusion.  You fall into another world."
16:21:52  <andythenorth> "Time progressed while you weren't looking.  The grue is now a bleen."
16:22:07  <_dp_> it doesn't work in openttd because min for max loan is 200k $ :p
16:22:24  <_dp_> so you suddenly have a horse, two jets and 200k loan :p
16:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: solution to that is to make a horse cost 100k :p
16:23:30  <andythenorth> "The Horse ate k"
16:23:44  <andythenorth> "Do you 1) shoot the Horse 2) eat the remaining k?"
16:24:00  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, then jet cost will overflow money :p
16:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a missing feature for GS: control the inflation factor(s)
16:24:15  <andythenorth> "Fix the Game GS"
16:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> also, fractional currency display factors
16:24:46  <andythenorth> GS can fix that? :o
16:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:25:02  <andythenorth> GS could model currency devaluations :P
16:25:14  <andythenorth> and newgrf could specify which currency a train is priced in
16:25:23  <andythenorth> you could choose to import from NARS or USSR set
16:25:25  <_dp_> for starters it would be nice to count fractional money
16:25:30  <andythenorth> depending on exchange rates
16:25:37  <_dp_> instead of getting paiment +- 10% :p
16:25:44  <andythenorth> also OpenTTD models train choices all wrong for Europe
16:25:54  <andythenorth> they're modelled as commercial or efficiency choices
16:26:04  <andythenorth> instead of choices about which factories are where voters live
16:26:22  <andythenorth> the political economy in OpenTTD is frankly weak :P
16:27:20  <b_jonas> newgrf can already control a lot of the prices, fi not all
16:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is something that you can base your narrative around :)
16:29:41  <andythenorth> I do have ideas for narrative
16:29:52  <andythenorth> but they are tied to specific FIRS
16:30:21  * andythenorth wonders if we can calculate industry chains
16:30:27  <andythenorth> with some rules for limit of a 'chain'
16:30:29  <b_jonas> for anrrative you could do something as simple as transporting stuff around until a secondary industry can manufacture rails to get better railway tracks, and the tertiary industry can manufacture vehicles to get better trains and trucks
16:31:03  <andythenorth> yes
16:31:10  <andythenorth> it's just not currently viable
16:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the only reasonable way you can bunlde FIRS with a specific GS is if you make a scenario. (but FIRS should still work fine without the GS)
16:32:02  <andythenorth> what if we could genericise the narrative?
16:32:19  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: well sure, this is an optional thing, not something you should play with every FIRS game
16:33:05  <andythenorth> I need to identify 'keystone' industries
16:33:19  <andythenorth> so that GS can offer to build part of a new chain for you
16:33:29  <andythenorth> or demand service for it
16:33:53  <andythenorth> "There are coal and iron ore mines at Fuddlebridge, we are building a steel mill nearby"
16:33:54  <andythenorth> type thing
16:34:21  <andythenorth> If the newgrf is known, the GS author can just script that.
16:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a thing that openttd is missing is that mines tend to be in poorly accessible areas, and industries need to be in well-accessible areas
16:34:33  <andythenorth> If the newgrf isn't known, maybe we can do it by inspection?
16:34:58  <andythenorth> Can we model the cargo graph?
16:35:10  <andythenorth> I'd suggest a keystone industry might have a lot of edges leading into or out of it
16:35:20  <andythenorth> whereas something like fish -> fishing harbour really doesn't
16:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that idea fails for the "old style" sets which have max 3 input lines
16:35:41  <andythenorth> I'd be out of my depth building these kind of structures
16:35:42  <_dp_> I just realized ... horse is a off-road rv
16:35:45  <_dp_> not possible :(
16:35:46  <b_jonas> not that this only works in FIRS, you could have better vehicles in vanilla temperate once you transport enough steel to factories
16:35:58  <andythenorth> _dp_ NRT, do 'trails' or 'packhorse routes'
16:36:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, those are still roads
16:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: "off road" would be something like ships, just on land
16:36:35  <andythenorth> frosch123 once patched hovercraft to travel on any tile
16:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that seems troublesome to implement on multiple levels
16:36:45  <andythenorth> but it crashed when it encountered a house
16:36:55  <_dp_> I actually though of using horse as ingame character and it would be megastupid to have player laying trains ahead of himself xD
16:37:03  <_dp_> *trails
16:37:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause picking trivial cases
16:37:24  <andythenorth> the Port and Blast Furnace might be considered keystone industries
16:37:35  <andythenorth> GS building either on an empty map (or empty region) would develop game
16:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, i'd say the glass works and metal workshop industries would be better candidates
16:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> as they're further down the chains
16:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but identifying "chains" is troublesome if you have loops
16:39:02  <andythenorth> but then who builds the steel mill?
16:39:06  <andythenorth> player funding?
16:40:01  <andythenorth> the problem I have genericising is that I already have strong opinions on which industries are keystone
16:40:12  <andythenorth> for obvious reason of having designed the chains :P
16:40:38  <andythenorth> here, paper mill, and chemicals work, and the two 'ports'
16:40:49  <andythenorth> chemicals work / chemical plant /s
16:40:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think a "generic" GS will have enough problems telling apart primary from secondary industries
16:41:07  <andythenorth> doesn't it just count inputs?
16:41:17  <andythenorth> primaries have no input, except in newgrf
16:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the "except" part is what we're talking about...
16:41:58  <andythenorth> I'm sure nogo has the lifetype somewhere
16:42:00  * andythenorth looks
16:42:25  <andythenorth>
16:42:51  <b_jonas> primary industries are the ones that produce output right away, without having to deliver stuff to them
16:42:53  <andythenorth> hmm, even the docs have the caveats :P
16:42:59  <andythenorth> ("Usually" means that advanced NewGRF industry concepts might not fit the "raw"/"processing" classification, so it's up to the interpretation of the NewGRF author.)
16:43:05  <andythenorth> "Industries might be neither raw nor processing. This is usually the case for industries which produce nothing (e.g. power plants), but also for weird industries like temperate banks and tropic lumber mills."
16:43:50  <_dp_> lol, even humans have troubles identifying primaries sometimes :p
16:43:58  <_dp_> and I don't mean newbies
16:44:24  <_dp_> just applying classical mp rule "competition only on primaries" to firs or yeti is already a puzzle :p
16:45:54  <andythenorth> I'm curious here which is the bigger evil
16:46:08  <andythenorth> trying to analyse industry chains reliably, with no guidance
16:46:16  <andythenorth> or trying to maintain a GS against a newgrf
16:46:31  <andythenorth> one involves a lot more code, which I will almost certainly get wrong
16:47:01  <_dp_> you know my answer :p
16:47:09  <_dp_> I maintain newgrfs against a server xD
16:47:11  <andythenorth> patched Servers FTW!
16:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say you'd have a better time hardcoding as many newgrf economies into the GS as you can find, and trying to find a signature to identify them in the game
16:47:48  <andythenorth> oh I was just going to have them key on industrylist and cargolist
16:47:54  <andythenorth> two keys should be enough
16:48:06  <andythenorth> probably high...what's the term...entropy?
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16:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that there's a newgrf author out there who erratically revamps his newgrfs every few months
16:48:37  <andythenorth> well I was just going to dump all the FIRS tagged versions in
16:49:01  <andythenorth> it's not hard to publish manifest.json or something from the FIRS compile
16:49:19  <andythenorth> and then ingest that for a GS compile
16:49:47  <andythenorth> I disavow trying to actually generate the GS directly from FIRS, I think that's a minor disaster
16:50:50  <glx> GS can see the relation between industries, probably not the full view but enough to decide a direction
16:51:16  <andythenorth> I don't really want to have to build a tree in sq
16:51:29  <andythenorth> I suspect my programming skills are nowhere near good enough for Squirrel
16:51:43  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: remember that high entropy means more chaos, more distributed .. pretty sure that is not what you meant :D
16:51:51  <TrueBrain> (I had to be cheeky, I am sorry :P)
16:52:06  <andythenorth> I find the definition of entropy weird anyway
16:52:11  <TrueBrain> it is :)
16:52:19  <andythenorth> heat death of universe isn't maximum chaos, it's maximum uniformity
16:52:29  <andythenorth> planets and gas clouds and crap are chaos
16:52:41  <andythenorth> we have a weird idea of what 'order' is
16:52:50  <TrueBrain> well, you are not wrong with what you say
16:52:54  <glx> GSIndustryType can get enough info to make links
16:53:01  <TrueBrain> heat death is highest entropy, which is far from chaos :P
16:53:13  <andythenorth> hmm glx
16:53:16  <TrueBrain> gas clouds have a pretty low entropy ;)
16:53:22  <TrueBrain> they shouldn't be there
16:53:23  <andythenorth> eh wait, we already have the industry chains
16:53:32  <andythenorth> alberth put them in the gui
16:53:43  <andythenorth> does that actually have a tree, or is just drawn with magic?
16:54:06  <andythenorth> it only does a limited part of the tree at once, so it might just be next / previous
16:54:21  <glx> I think it's just static analysis based on inputs/outputs
16:54:25  <_dp_> tree is just an array of parents anyway :p
16:54:36  <andythenorth> easy to say, hard for me to write in squirrel :P
16:54:56  <TrueBrain> isn't there an LLVM backend for squirrel? :P
16:54:58  * andythenorth looks for python to squirrel transpiler
16:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting horror visions again...
16:56:20  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: funny enough, I have code for that :P It was just not very welcoming ;)
16:57:06  <andythenorth> I remember TrueBrain had a design for changing the openttd mod framework
16:57:15  <andythenorth> there was some spec and stuff
16:59:38  <TrueBrain> vscode regex replace is pretty good .. feels a bit odd, to be able to do these things from a GUI instead of with sed, but it works fine :)
17:03:57  <_dp_> I kinda started on "spec" of sorts as well
17:12:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how about a GS release strategy using multiple GS? :P  e.g. "FIRS Steeltown"
17:12:50  <andythenorth> probably highly spammy
17:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no. just no.
17:12:55  <TrueBrain> and now I really have to learn Rust macros .. this will be fun :D
17:13:28  <andythenorth> hmm
17:13:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: "do X for all towns on map" is a terrible goal. it's repetitive and either X is easy/boring or the whole thing is impossible
17:13:46  <andythenorth> it's quite grindy :)
17:13:55  <andythenorth> reminds me of the original high score table goals
17:13:59  <frosch123> maybe you can sell it in japan
17:14:01  <andythenorth> like the station rating one
17:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the minimum profit is the worst one
17:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> effectively means: can't have road vehicles
17:17:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't inflation solve that?
17:17:14  <_dp_> I wonder if I still have some saves from 1000 rating quest
17:17:22  <_dp_> that whole thing is a huge silly fest
17:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only to a certain point
17:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there's a tipping point where RVs are basically impossible to run at a profit
17:18:03  <frosch123> anyway, didn't we recently discover that the 1000 point win screen of ogfx has water cycle all over the place, and noone reported in 10 years?
17:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> also, transfer credits...
17:18:31  <frosch123> transfer credits are not ttd
17:21:41  <b_jonas> it could be just some number of the towns, not all towns
17:22:19  <b_jonas> like transport at least 8000 passengers a year into any 5 towns
17:23:16  <b_jonas> in my previous game I had a few passenger buses or towns in like half the towns. the only thing I do for every town is build a statue.
17:24:50  <frosch123> "have 'appalling' rating in all towns"
17:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that effectively means "stop all vehicles"
17:25:44  <_dp_> pfft, vehicles
17:25:48  <_dp_> just destroy trees
17:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's generally a poor game design choice to have the goal of the game to be "don't do any of the fun parts"
17:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that doesn't work for large towns
17:26:19  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, then houses :P
17:26:30  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and if you have vehicles running, by the time you get to the last towns, the first ones already recovered
17:26:41  <_dp_> spam stations
17:26:57  <_dp_> also why would you have any vehicles with a goal like that? xD
17:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: to earn money to destroy all the trees? :p
17:28:48  <_dp_> depends on map size I guess
17:28:56  <_dp_> you can already destroy a lot with just a loan
17:29:14  <_dp_> but if not that's just 2 stations for a moneyline :p
17:29:32  <_dp_> add 2 more unused and your rating's gone :p
17:29:36  <b_jonas> luckily the train list lets you stop all your trains with a single click, same with trucks
17:29:51  <b_jonas> or order them onto depot
17:30:23  <b_jonas> there's no button to order a group of vehicles into depot and sell though
17:30:42  <andythenorth> can GS do that?
17:31:12  <_dp_> surprisingly yes
17:32:13  <_dp_> hm, that actually gave me an idea to do that as a server feature xD
17:32:30  <_dp_> not that useful though so probably not gonna happen
17:33:49  <frosch123> today seems to be the day of weird mails
17:34:15  <andythenorth> another? :)
17:34:19  <frosch123> now the r/openttd-associated discord channel asks whether they can represent ottd officially, whatever that means
17:34:29  <andythenorth> 'no'
17:34:35  <frosch123> yep :)
17:34:38  <andythenorth> can we just set up an auto-reply?
17:34:43  <TrueBrain> good question, what does "official" mean in this context :)
17:34:59  <andythenorth> what is official
17:35:07  <TrueBrain> that ranges from "making decisions" to "having the verified logo" (if that is  thing on Discord)
17:35:09  <_dp_> just a word :p
17:35:36  <frosch123> i'll tell them that is a wiki page, that everyone can edit
17:36:53  <TrueBrain> and when did humblebundle become spammy?
17:36:57  <frosch123> oh, it's already listed there
17:37:02  <TrueBrain> they are not really "humble" anymore
17:37:37  <frosch123> wasn't their anti-creditcard-fraud algorithm their notable thing?
17:38:26  <_dp_> password recovery link on wiki is broken :(
17:38:47  <frosch123> oh yeah, that page does no longer exist :)
17:38:52  <TrueBrain> did it ever exist? :D
17:39:09  <_dp_> do wiki accounts even work still?
17:39:09  <frosch123> i wonder whether new website, or new bananas broke it
17:39:31  <frosch123> _dp_: yes, some polish guys have been translating for the past 2 months
17:39:35  <TrueBrain> it is amazing how few questions you get about "password change" if it simply doesn't work
17:39:52  <TrueBrain> hasn't work since 2007
17:39:53  <frosch123> they have a lot of time since they translate the most ridiculous sites
17:40:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it did work.
17:40:27  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that would be amazing, as that should really never have worked :P
17:40:40  <frosch123> not password change, but password recovery
17:40:48  <_dp_> weird thing is... I've no idea how my password manager managed to "forget" my password ...
17:40:50  <TrueBrain> neither should work :P
17:41:05  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I wouldn't know how recovery could work, without change :)
17:41:18  <TrueBrain> but mediawiki should not have rights to modify the password in LDAP
17:41:22  <TrueBrain> if so, that would be a bug :P
17:41:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, mediawiki linked to
17:41:48  <frosch123> it was not the wiki password/recovery site
17:42:04  <TrueBrain> ah, okay :) Fine :)
17:42:07  <frosch123> password recovery went through django
17:43:53  <frosch123> at btpro and reddit still hating each other?
17:44:20  <frosch123> btpro moving the reddit link from "social networks" to "gamers / servers" was the funniest change on the wiki ever
17:44:39  <frosch123> esp. considering google+ is still listed
17:45:49  <frosch123> wow, the atom/rss links link to something, no idea what though
17:46:38  <_dp_> You have made too many recent login attempts. Please wait before trying again :(
17:47:46  <TrueBrain> in other news, mostly for frosch123 : in 2 weeks I have finally time again to work on the Team thingy on GitHub, and I hope we can migrate some more services to AWS
17:48:19  <TrueBrain> also means we really have to think what to do with the wiki :)
17:49:55  <frosch123> did anyone try the git-based wikis?
17:50:13  <TrueBrain> pretty sure if you haven't, nobody has .. :D
17:51:58  <_dp_> well, since I can't login... can someone please add cm discord there?
17:52:07  <_dp_> also btpro discord link is dead :p
17:53:59  <TrueBrain> _dp_: frosch123 pointed you to the recovery link :P
17:53:59  <_dp_> novapolis link is kinda weird, there are no servers anymore, just old highscores...
17:55:59  <_dp_> TrueBrain, huh? where?
17:56:02  <frosch123> _dp_: <- it does exist
17:57:18  <_dp_> oh, thx
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18:05:13  <andythenorth> I guess sometime I have to stop talking
18:05:16  <andythenorth> and write a damn GS :)
18:05:20  <andythenorth> oof
18:05:33  <andythenorth> is it some kind of main() loop type thing?
18:06:21  <frosch123> yes, main loop with event polling
18:07:00  <frosch123> not sure whether there are coroutines
18:08:09  <andythenorth> can it read json? :P
18:08:17  <andythenorth> I guess I'll need a code generator
18:08:34  <andythenorth> mad idea, bundle json with a grf, let GS read it :P
18:12:05  <andythenorth> probably a big infosec hole :P
18:13:41  <frosch123> i think you only want that for newgrf -> json -> admin port communication, so firs can phone home and report industry usage
18:16:00  <andythenorth> FIRS Whack
18:16:08  <andythenorth> high score tables
18:16:25  <andythenorth> leaderboard
18:16:31  <frosch123> compose an industry from random tiles of different industries?
18:16:43  <frosch123> or what is firs whack?
18:17:16  <andythenorth> arbitrary production goals or something
18:17:37  <_dp_> random cargo chains :p
18:17:39  <andythenorth> we can use AWS queues as the database
18:17:45  <andythenorth> for 14 days :P
18:18:16  <andythenorth> alternately, if we can have newgrf -> admin port communication, can we actually include a coin miner?
18:18:21  <andythenorth> we could hide it in plain sight
18:18:25  <andythenorth> 'coin mining industry'
18:19:00  <andythenorth> can I do proof of work in a callback? :P
18:19:11  <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of perm. storage now
18:19:28  <andythenorth> and we can use the town as extended storage
18:19:41  <andythenorth> we can even pass results around between different worker threads
18:19:50  <andythenorth> via town
18:26:21  <_dp_> ok, now I can login on but wiki still says invalid password :/
18:26:45  <TrueBrain> they both use the same LDAP, so that is odd
18:27:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- is there also a page for firs?
18:27:48  <andythenorth> there probably should be
18:28:03  <andythenorth> do we get pentested btw?
18:28:07  <andythenorth> should be annual or so
18:28:13  <andythenorth> otherwise we could have big fines
18:32:14  <andythenorth> up to 4% of revenue or so
18:32:42  <_dp_> To help protect against automated edit spam, please type the two words you see in the box below:
18:32:53  <_dp_> what words?
18:33:10  <TrueBrain> lol, when did the captcha stop working? :D
18:33:41  <_dp_> idk, I just noticed it was there xD
18:34:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: sounds good, they pay 4% of your was fees?
18:34:43  <frosch123> *our
18:35:19  <_dp_> though it probably isn't capcha doing since it does give different messages anyway...
18:36:08  <_dp_> unless it's checked last and error message for failing is "invalid password" :p
18:37:56  * andythenorth BBL
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18:38:23  <_dp_> I give up
18:38:30  <_dp_> who can wiki plz add link :)
18:48:47  <TrueBrain> more reasons to migrate the wiki to something else :D
18:49:52  <TrueBrain> _dp_: well, you are not blocked, so that counts as something I guess :P
18:49:58  <TrueBrain> I never understood mediawiki, sadly enough
18:50:26  <TrueBrain> btw, if your username is dp, pretty sure your wiki username is 'dp'
18:50:29  <TrueBrain> if that helps
18:51:07  <TrueBrain> your last edit was in 2005 it seems, lolz
18:51:54  <_dp_> nope, 'dp' doesn't work also
18:52:08  <TrueBrain> you once were able to login, meh, dunno, sorry :P
18:52:25  <_dp_> and I'm pretty sure I haven't been editing it in 2005
18:52:28  <TrueBrain> it is possible you cannot login, as mediawiki doesn't support _ in usernames
18:52:44  <_dp_> I may not have edited it ever actually
18:53:07  <TrueBrain> <- is that a public page?
18:53:22  <TrueBrain> seems it is
18:53:52  <TrueBrain> but this was before the LDAP migration
18:54:02  <_dp_> that probably isn't me
18:54:07  <frosch123> <- better
18:54:18  <_dp_> I'm not sure I even knew of openttd existance in 2005
18:54:18  <TrueBrain> and I remember mediawiki had "some" issues with _, no clue what .. so sorry _dp_  .. :(
18:54:25  <frosch123> if every game server has their own discord, they can be grouped as well
18:54:50  <b_jonas> who would have an underscore in their username?
18:54:55  <b_jonas> :P
18:55:04  <TrueBrain> why have restrictions on usernames like that? :P
18:55:21  <TrueBrain> frosch123: what sorting order did you use? :D
18:55:27  <_dp_> it's usually because of dP not being accepted for some silly reason :p
18:55:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the previous one
18:55:44  <_dp_> so I have _dp_ ldpl odpo oodpoo and lldpll
18:56:00  <TrueBrain> ooooooooooooo
18:59:37  * _dp_ approves ordering by name xD
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19:01:24  <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you want to admin an ottd server?
19:02:01  <TrueBrain> what is the pay?
19:02:09  <_dp_> is that still redding thing?
19:02:11  <frosch123> you have to link to it from the frontpage
19:02:14  <_dp_> *reddit
19:02:23  <frosch123> _dp_: follow up
19:02:52  <frosch123> if we put the link to the server next to tt-forums, we can assist running the server :p
19:02:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: so if we link it on the frontpage, we can administrator it?
19:03:04  <TrueBrain> so more burden .... so where is the gain?
19:03:11  <_dp_> imo having reddit as official server is even weirder than the discord :p
19:03:39  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the gain is that more people discover their server, or something
19:03:57  <frosch123> it's the day of weird mails
19:04:25  <frosch123> _dp_: i only know reddit for posting firs screenshots
19:04:36  <frosch123> and asking "what's the best newgrf" questions
19:04:39  <frosch123> about 3 times a day or so
19:04:59  <_dp_> yep, about the same
19:05:24  <b_jonas> frosch123: I do both of those straight on this irc channel
19:05:33  <_dp_> btw, now that I started to pay attention it seems like the only tree grf in existance is "stolen trees" :p
19:05:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I miss the incentive, so no tnx :P
19:06:16  <_dp_> they even have a freaking arctic variation %)
19:06:39  <_dp_> that probably share no pixels with original but is still "stolen"
19:07:33  <frosch123> _dp_: what about cztr trees, japanese trees, ogfx+ trees?
19:07:52  <_dp_> they're like 10% of screenshots :p
19:08:08  <frosch123> "stolen" does not refer to original graphics
19:08:28  <_dp_> I think I know the story
19:08:43  <frosch123> "stolen" means that someone took initiative to turn vapour ware into real stuff
19:08:46  <frosch123> or so
19:08:46  <_dp_> all I care is that they can't be put on bananas
19:10:10  <_dp_> though I don't need them for what I do anyway
19:10:20  <_dp_> so I'm just sad there are so few tree grfs
19:11:14  <_dp_> and landscape ones in general actually
19:11:27  <_dp_> but there are more trains that anyone can count in a lifetime :p
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19:24:59  <_dp_> oh, and I think I saw some trees from original graphics on bananas somewhere...
19:26:15  <frosch123> quite sure many people include baseset sprites into their graphics
19:26:36  <frosch123> which look out of place when using a different baseset
19:30:01  <_dp_> that's an interesting point actually I haven't considered
19:30:13  <_dp_> guess I'll leave no sprite unturned :p
19:31:46  <_dp_> that's kinda silly though
19:32:01  <_dp_> so to make landscape look good for everyone you must redefine all baseset sprites?
19:33:21  <frosch123> depends what you are doing, for features with spritelayouts you can just reference the baseset sprite in the layout
19:33:41  <_dp_> well, so far I changed ground color...
19:34:04  <_dp_> don't think I can reference abase for that :p
19:34:36  <frosch123> you can draw the abase sprite first, and then add your alpha layer above it
19:35:04  <_dp_> alpha layer? I'm doing 8bit
19:35:19  <_dp_> also don't think you can do a proper tint with just alpha :p
19:35:20  <frosch123> you started mentioning abase
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19:35:34  <_dp_> well, yeah, I recolored opengfx
19:35:50  <_dp_> so for opengfx everything is fine, but abase is messed up ofc
19:36:15  <frosch123> for 8bpp, quite sure people made ground tiles by adding dithered stuff on top
19:38:51  <_dp_> well, whatever, point is I can never make sprites look well with all base sets
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19:39:14  <_dp_> just by the virtue of some being 8bpp and some 32bpp ez
19:41:27  <_dp_>
19:42:33  <_dp_> though abase is whatever, real lolz is nightgfx
19:42:42  <_dp_>
19:44:16  <_dp_> like how it my grf... I don't even ... begin with %)
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19:57:16  <_dp_> can I just add opengfx to a game somehow? xD
20:00:17  <glx> probably with a huge newgrf full of action A
20:01:22  <_dp_> there is bunch of opengfx+ stuff but I'm not sure that pullze even assembles :/
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20:13:08  <_dp_> crazy idea of the day goes to reddit discord
20:13:13  <_dp_> openttd br xD
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21:44:39  <Timberwolf> Some of the reddit stuff I find just weird.
21:45:26  <FLHerne> No,, really?
21:45:27  <Timberwolf> Like there seems a surprisingly common theme of, "I can't possibly play the game until someone tells me the optimal combinations of settings/newgrfs/whatever, what if I don't enjoy it?"
21:46:45  <supermop_Home_> i feel like i would not enjoy it if told the optimal combination
21:47:17  <supermop_Home_> looking at old posts of people min-maxing Sim City was heartbreaking for me
21:47:54  <Timberwolf> The optimal combination is Gwyd's "Big Train" and a GRF which disables all other vehicles.
21:48:02  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I don't think tt-forums was any different :)
21:48:12  <andythenorth> just reddit foregrounds it more due to format :)
21:50:34  <Timberwolf> Quite possibly, I've often pondered that Reddit shows up a lot of things that would be in the "new to x? start here" thread in a traditional forum.
21:58:35  <_dp_> judging by the likes reddit exists for nice screenshots and stupid memes :/
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22:32:57  <b_jonas> what the heck? how did I just crash a train? I wasn't editing the tracks or signals there
22:33:03  <b_jonas> can you crash a train by just reversing it?
22:33:48  <b_jonas> it was stuck in some strange state partway out of the depot, stopped but not at a signal, so I tried to reverse it
22:33:57  <b_jonas> and bang, a train crash
22:35:50  <b_jonas> and apparently the other train it crashed with is still inside the depot, with a red cross next to it indicating that it's stopped
22:37:08  <_dp_> you shouldn't be able to but I think there is indeed some bug involving depots
22:37:35  <_dp_> if you can figure out how to reliably reproduce it it would be awesome
22:38:28  <b_jonas> sadly I don't think I can reproduce it, I'm in the middle of replacing many trains and saved before that, so I can't reproduce the operations
22:39:02  <b_jonas> does it help if I send a save afterwards or something?
22:39:25  <_dp_> nope
22:39:32  <b_jonas> it's not that I mind this train crash much, I have a ton of money
22:39:34  <b_jonas> in game
22:39:54  <b_jonas> (time to build a vacuum train network after this probably)
22:40:43  <_dp_> ideal would be save immediately before reverse
22:42:47  <b_jonas> yeah, I know
22:43:21  <b_jonas> although it looked like the glitch started a bit earlier
22:43:23  <FLHerne> b_jonas: If something is stuck in a strange state, save before trying to fix it :p
22:43:38  <b_jonas> yeah
22:43:43  <b_jonas> I should have thought of it earlier
22:44:31  <b_jonas> but trains and signals are weird, I don't always recognize what's only my misunderstanding and what isn't
22:46:45  <glx> yes you can
22:48:00  <b_jonas> does it help to reload after I make the save like that? or does it hurt more because if reloading fixes the glitched state then I've lost more info?
22:48:12  <b_jonas> I guess I shouldn't reload. stupid question.
22:48:18  <b_jonas> not initially at least
22:49:50  <glx> usually reversed train will crash in a train waiting at a signal
22:57:38  <b_jonas> I'm using path signals in case it matters
22:57:46  <b_jonas> so I think the depot has a path signal too
22:58:09  <Timberwolf> What happens to `curv_info_prev_cur` when the previous vehicle disappears in a depot? It looks like it gets clobbered to something other than 0, but I'm not sure what.
22:58:54  <Timberwolf> (I'm actually using `curv_info_prev_next` with `vehicle_curv_info`, but it seems to be the disappearance of the previous vehicle that causes weird stuff to happen)
22:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: i'm not sure, but here is "vehiclr_is_hidden" that should indicate "in depot/tunnel"
22:59:45  <Timberwolf> Actually, might be `other_veh_z_offset` that's causing my issue.
22:59:48  <b_jonas> now I'll have to wait and see how the steel and goods network works, now that I've separated them to give them even more capacity
22:59:53  <b_jonas> and fine tune them
23:00:13  <Timberwolf> Now I think about it, that sounds more like something that might get a bit weird if the first vehicle has disappeared.
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23:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
23:10:10  <Timberwolf> I don't know the inner mechanics, but I have two checks for "should I display 3 sprites or 1 long sprite" in Trains - one is "is this vehicle in a curve" and the other is "is the z-index relative to adjacent vehicles != 0". One of those is not returning the expected result when driving in to a depot, and I have a hunch it's because the first vehicle is hidden and therefore it's not really valid to ask
23:10:16  <Timberwolf> it about curvature or z-index.
23:10:44  <Timberwolf> I suspect just checking whether the front vehicle is hidden is the sensible option.
23:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought i used the hidden flag in CETS, but i can't find any evidence of it
23:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose what held me off was that i needed two more types of slice sprites, which included the front or back half of the vehicle
23:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, is your code public somewhere?
23:14:51  <Timberwolf> Yes, that's how I solved it. Depending on situation I display the vehicles either as [front, middle, back] or as one long middle vehicle.
23:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> "you" solved that... right :)
23:15:24  <Timberwolf> If you wish to gaze upon horror and question man's hubris,
23:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what CETS did
23:15:40  <b_jonas> you're making extra-long articulated trains?
23:15:52  <Timberwolf> Heh. I took your suggestion, but I created it independently. Might be interesting to see how similar they are.
23:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, it would additionally need a "front+middle" or "middle+back" sprite
23:16:24  <Timberwolf> is the relevant template.
23:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i would link you my code, but seems devzone is out of order
23:19:26  <Timberwolf> I was wrong, it does seem to be curvature info that's the problem. But yay, I'm at a point I can fix the depot issue now.
23:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- this is my piece of code
23:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's much older than nml's support for the "other_veh_*" variables
23:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so it queries var[0x62] directly
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23:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> this will be replicated with "SLICE" being -1, 0 and 1. and i constantly forget which one is front and back
23:22:31  <Timberwolf> I remember looking at this, I never realised what `slice_group` referred to until now.
23:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> those are the separated front/middle/back sprites, instead of the full vehicle
23:26:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "other_veh_z_offset(-1) +  other_veh_z_offset(-2)" this looks fishy, missing abs()?
23:30:45  <Timberwolf> It's not supposed to be a straight addition but I am pondering whether that's correct - I only do hill climbing/descending sprites based on the difference between front and middle vehicle for lengths > 4, I did work this out with a sheet of paper but now I have doubt over whether that is correct or just happens to work in the scenarios I tried.
23:31:47  <Timberwolf> Fixed my depot problem, at least.
23:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> "switch_{{.}}_height_front" where you only query one offset looks wrong as well
23:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably be both
23:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't judge whether your offsets are correct, since i've never worked with these nml variables before
23:33:45  <Timberwolf> That one is deliberate, I use both for short vehicles but with long ones I found they stay in the "climbing" state too far forward if you include the rearmost vehicle.
23:35:10  <Timberwolf> If one of the vehicle sections is L1 then it gets unreliable and you have to use both, but at that point the vehicle is short enough it doesn't matter so much if it stays "climbing" for a few pixels more.
23:35:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see this working properly if both front and back aren't in sync when deciding whether to draw full or partial sprites... suddenly parts will disappear, or be drawn double
23:41:48  <Timberwolf> There's one situation where it draws double, which is the "hill crest" situation, but it's not noticeable for anyone who isn't carefully moving trains forward with the sprite aligner open.
23:42:26  <Timberwolf> If you find a track configuration which results in a noticeable artifact, that would be very useful :) - means I will have missed something from my sheet of paper.
23:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: what about an opposite crest? i.e. \/ (valley) instead of /\ (hill)?
23:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (or am i misunderstanding what a "crest" is?)
23:55:30  <Timberwolf> "crest" here is /-. But you're right about the abs(..), I went back to my initial workings out and it should be that, I just want to know "Is either the front or mid unit different".
23:55:46  <Timberwolf> Also I think checking the state of the rear unit will prevent that overdraw.
23:56:12  <Timberwolf> /\ and \/ work fine, need to check with sprite aligner to see it's not overdrawing anything.
23:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> in all 4 directions?
23:57:51  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i'm missing something, but your way seems incomplete
23:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried anything, though

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