Log for #openttd on 16th August 2020:
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03:49:11  <Gustavo6046> I want my buses to just roam around (no specific orders) and load/unload at the stations they will come across.
03:49:13  <Gustavo6046> How do?
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07:22:48  <andythenorth> seems Train Whack already existed
07:23:00  * andythenorth has ordered a copy
07:23:06  <andythenorth> looks like it's only boring mode
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10:04:39  <_dp_> wtf was I debugging yesterday till 5am, can't even repro now xD
10:05:12  <_dp_> well, my save comparator can now parse VEHS so that's a plus I guess :/
10:15:37  <b_jonas> _dp_: yeah, that's most of my output at work too, better debugging tools, not fixes for the problems that they found
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10:23:11  * andythenorth had ideas
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10:23:21  <andythenorth> I can use the flip status of a vehicle as configuration
10:23:24  <andythenorth> it's bits
10:23:35  <andythenorth> so 0000 would be livery 1
10:23:56  <b_jonas> can you also use the coupled wagons as configuration?
10:23:57  <andythenorth> 1000 would be livery 2 (reversed bits, user expects to start at front of train)
10:24:06  <andythenorth> 0100 would be livery 2
10:24:09  <andythenorth> etc
10:24:13  <nielsm> you mean flip bit of first, second, third etc. vehicle in the train as bits to select livery of entire train?
10:24:18  <andythenorth> yes
10:24:24  <andythenorth> totally sane, right?
10:24:36  <andythenorth> how many values can I encode in 4 bits?
10:24:41  <nielsm> 16
10:24:50  <andythenorth> that's enough
10:24:55  <andythenorth> I only want to draw 2 in most cases :P
10:25:21  * andythenorth wonders about a better way :P
10:26:17  <nielsm> steamers with tender built as separate wagon and tender chosen determines graphics and performance in some way too, and works as second bit to select livery by flip
10:26:32  <andythenorth> I'm sure V already has all this in NUTS
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10:28:46  * _dp_ actually wanted a flipped Doombringer yesterday
10:28:53  <_dp_> doesn't flip :(
10:29:23  <andythenorth> flipped articulated vehicles should be a thing :)
10:30:36  <andythenorth> ho
10:30:51  * andythenorth proposes a newgrf flag that redefines ctrl-click behaviour
10:30:58  <andythenorth> if 0, flip is flip
10:31:27  <andythenorth> if 1 ctrl-click sets a bit on vehicle (lead vehicle of articulated consist), and newgrf can choose what to do
10:32:12  <_dp_>
10:32:40  <andythenorth> you wanted one for the back also?
10:33:04  <_dp_> yep
10:33:21  <andythenorth> it's not like newgrf couldn't do it
10:33:27  <andythenorth> I already have to manually handle flip anyway
10:33:39  <andythenorth> because openttd does it wrong
10:33:51  <_dp_> mostly because I just wanted two engines without wagons and before I realized it turns last wagon into a head visually
10:34:24  <andythenorth> maybe I should make a JGR feature request :)
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11:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the main thing that's blocking flipping articulated vehicles is that in order to flip the whole vehicle, the parts need to change order, and that does all kind of weird stuff to functions that traverse the vehicles in the chain
11:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that some people want flip to actually do what it says
11:02:10  <andythenorth> yes
11:02:59  <andythenorth> apart from "it's work" and "it fragments the existing grf base" what stops it being delegated to newgrf
11:03:12  <andythenorth> given that newgrfs can't support flip without handling it themselves anyway
11:03:49  <andythenorth> I can forsee some bad things happening if var 0x61 is being used extensively
11:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you need different parts of the code to traverse the vehicle in different orders
11:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> because vehicles are now both the 3rd part in the articulated chain, and the 1st part in the vehicle chain
11:06:03  <andythenorth> yes
11:06:27  <andythenorth> I can see the problem
11:06:54  <andythenorth> container vehicles :P
11:07:21  <andythenorth> the IDs and properties of units inside an articulated consist should not be the concern of neighbouring vehicles
11:07:32  <andythenorth> but that's not going to change :)
11:08:22  <andythenorth> anyway, I have made a totally rational way to control liveries
11:08:37  <andythenorth> Horse has random 1cc/2cc livery for cargo wagons
11:08:45  <andythenorth> which can be reversed by flipping the vehicle
11:08:53  <andythenorth> but there have been a few feature requests to disable that
11:09:09  <andythenorth> which I ignored because it could be avoided using the company colour settings for wagons
11:09:19  <andythenorth> (set 1cc and 2cc same for wagons only)
11:09:24  <andythenorth> but that doesn't work with groups
11:09:31  <andythenorth> so
11:09:45  <andythenorth> flipping the second vehicle in same-id chain toggles random on or off
11:10:03  <andythenorth> if random is off, flipping the first vehicle determines 1cc or 2cc for the whole id chain
11:10:28  <andythenorth>
11:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like complete nonsense :)
11:11:02  <andythenorth> trying to control train appearance in a spec that is borderline hostile to it
11:11:06  <andythenorth> is a good meta-game
11:11:40  <andythenorth> if starting a model train simulator from scratch, blank paper, 'control appearance' would probably be near top of spec
11:11:48  <andythenorth> but we are where we are
11:12:47  <andythenorth> I could just add 1CC and 2CC variants to the purchase menu and be done with it?
11:13:00  <andythenorth> it wouldn't bloat grf much, it's a sprite recolour, so just a few extra lines and an ID
11:13:31  <andythenorth> "Open Wagon (Small) 1CC", "Open Wagon (Small) 2CC", "Open Wagon (Small) Random"
11:13:35  <andythenorth> etc
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11:41:38  <andythenorth> hmm
11:41:59  <andythenorth> is there a var somewhere for 'company colour is being applied to this vehicle by a group'?
11:42:19  <andythenorth> vehicles without livery from group should continue to randomise 1cc/2cc
11:42:25  <andythenorth> vehicles in groups should not
11:42:42  <andythenorth> maybe I should allow/prevent randomisation based on tasteful colour combos :P
11:46:33  <andythenorth> ha ha genius idea
11:46:36  <andythenorth> 2 kinds of caboose
11:46:51  <andythenorth> attaching a random-colours caboose in the consist causes random colour swap
11:46:56  <andythenorth> otherwise all the same
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12:33:08  <b_jonas> why would you want random colors in first place? do you want more rainbow slugs?
12:33:35  <b_jonas> I prefer my trains to just have group colors
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13:30:43  <andythenorth> you don't want wagons to sometimes have an alternative colour?
13:32:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd prospect the vast majority does not want random
13:32:29  <nielsm> depends on the type of wagon, in general I think it makes more sense that wagons purchased/built at the same time should look the same
13:32:35  <andythenorth> non-random is definitely tidier
13:32:44  <nielsm> but then OTTD doesn't have wagons moving between trains
13:32:55  <andythenorth> it's quite a nuanced situation
13:33:01  <nielsm> since that's really how mixed-looking trains happen irl
13:33:15  <andythenorth> without groups in use, I set wagon colours to e.g. blue, dark blue, or pink, red
13:33:22  <andythenorth> and then the randomisation is small
13:33:40  <andythenorth> but with groups I usually have e.g. red-white, mauve-orange etc
13:33:45  <andythenorth> and the wagons look horrible
13:35:04  <frosch123> i love random
13:35:11  <frosch123> more variety for less work
13:35:23  <nielsm> actually one thing you can do is have old cargo wagons at the end (and possibly regular intervals in long trains) have brakeman huts
13:35:29  <nielsm>
13:35:46  <andythenorth> frosch123 hurrah, a vote for random :)
13:36:12  <andythenorth> I could randomise to nearby company colour, instead of 1cc / 2cc
13:36:17  <andythenorth> might look less bad
13:37:11  <nielsm> containers can definitely be different each time they are loaded though
13:37:27  <andythenorth> yeah that's done already in Horse
13:38:13  <andythenorth> the number of side-channels I'm using to try and let player influence livery :P
13:38:26  <andythenorth> because I hate the spec implementation of liveries
13:41:35  <nielsm> how about instead of grouping in the purchase window there is a before-purchase callback that enumerates a list of variants available for purchase, and variants are shown in a separate list after choosing the wagpm
13:42:04  <nielsm> and each variant has a byte id that just becomes another variable
13:42:49  <andythenorth> does that differ much from current implementation?
13:42:51  <andythenorth> :)
13:43:24  <nielsm> in UI it does, perhaps?
13:43:24  <andythenorth> the UI might be less clunky :)
13:44:34  <andythenorth> can I repaint a vehicle after it is purchased?
13:45:04  <nielsm> actually have three cbs, one for enumerating the available variant ids, one for querying variant names by id, and one for selecting actual variant id from selected variant id (and other variables) at purchase time
13:46:02  <nielsm> aaaaaa big bird poop in my hair
13:46:13  <nielsm> and running down the back of my head
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13:48:23  <andythenorth> oof
14:01:27  <andythenorth> lateral approach
14:01:38  <andythenorth> rule-based company colour
14:02:22  <andythenorth> choose a colour, or open a rules UI
14:02:47  <andythenorth> 'if wagon use colour x  | random choice from [options]
14:02:53  <andythenorth> if engine... etc
14:03:44  <andythenorth> this would (1) work with groups as well as non-groups
14:04:02  <andythenorth> (2) we could replace the current colours UI, which has some of the weirdest design I've ever seen for making choices
14:04:31  <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I want alternative colors, that's when I assigne different colors to different train groups
14:04:58  <b_jonas> I woulnd't like random, because that would make it harder to distinguish different train groups by different colors
14:05:30  <b_jonas> nielsm has a point that in reality trains are often multicolored, but this isn't reality, I want to see my trains
14:05:41  <b_jonas> and I can have different trains running on the same line, or just close to each other
14:06:35  <nielsm> something like "prototype looks different from main production run" can also be cool
14:07:20  <nielsm> if you can get the actual introduction date and compare to the purchase date
14:07:33  <b_jonas> currently I color every train that carries only engineering supplies or farming supplies or chemicals or clay to blue. that's not perfect, because then I often redistribute the engineering supplies by adding one or two flat wagon to the back of the mining trains, and those wagons aren't blue, but since the iron/scrap/coal goes to hoppers and the eng supplies goes to flat wagons with cars on them, it's
14:07:39  <b_jonas> still obvious enough which trains have eng supply wagons
14:08:03  <b_jonas> but more importantly, I have five different mines on the north mining line, and distinguish the trains serving them with four different colors
14:08:15  <b_jonas> the south train line is similar, though that currently only has two mines
14:08:21  <Timberwolf> nielsm: I think `built_during_preview` does that?
14:08:32  <b_jonas> this will get even more important when I finally extend the north train line, there are a lot of currently unused mines there
14:09:03  <Timberwolf> I've been tempted to have an alternative DP1 sprite for Deltics built during the preview window, although I'm also tempted not to end up in combinatorial switch hell.
14:09:11  <nielsm> Timberwolf that sounds like it yes
14:09:21  <b_jonas> so I color the scrapyard trains yellow, coal to gray or brown, and the mining trains chosen from red, pink, orange, and whatever the other pink color is
14:09:34  <b_jonas> but these aren't fixed, I just use whatever works for my network
14:09:53  <b_jonas> my previous network had mostly oil and goods trains, so I had colors for different oil destinations
14:11:24  <b_jonas> I'm not saying that this helps the invisible workers that switch the track swithes for the trains, it helps me
14:11:31  <b_jonas> the real trains might be different color, this is for my interface
14:13:02  <b_jonas> although the maglev tracks are probably computer-controlled, there are no invisible workers pulling switches between two 4000 km/h vacuum trains
14:13:46  <b_jonas> the steam trains in the 1960s of the game may be switched manually
14:22:36  <andythenorth> Timberwolf switch livery depending on CC choice :P
14:23:52  <andythenorth> oof this randomisation based on flip state of 2nd wagon in ID chain :|
14:23:55  <andythenorth> it's nearly brilliant
14:24:01  <andythenorth> and also very odd
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14:52:00  <b_jonas> well now Sundwood will find out that it doesn't matter that they're the fourth largest city on the world map without passenger trains, they'll probably NEVER get connected to my vactrain network because they pissed me off way back when I tried to connect that scrapyard. you'll see how your NIMBY council decisions affect you now, when the other big cities will get vactrains
14:52:18  <b_jonas> they even have a hotel, won't sway me
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14:52:21  <b_jonas> map is full of hotels
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15:17:45  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Random forever
15:23:28  <andythenorth> maybe it does need a parameter
15:26:00  <andythenorth> for something like Schenker livery, it's not good on the wagons
15:28:35  <andythenorth> this has no group, so the engines and wagons have different colours
15:28:38  <andythenorth>
15:28:41  <andythenorth> much nicer imho
15:30:44  * andythenorth options
15:30:49  <andythenorth> * don't use groups?
15:31:06  <andythenorth> * do engine liveries with only 1CC, and use the 2CC only for wagons?
15:31:12  <andythenorth> * add a 3rd CC?
15:31:28  <andythenorth> * use recolour sprites to remap wagon colours to my choices, not players?
15:32:26  <andythenorth> * do 'realistic' coloured wagons only?
15:33:43  <nielsm> flat and box wagons tend to be mostly brown (maybe from wear and grime) while tankers have a bit of visible variation
15:36:52  <andythenorth> this 'problem' is of my own making
15:37:04  <andythenorth> the Horse wagon colours were designed against old livery UI
15:37:10  <andythenorth> then I campaigned for group liveries :)
15:38:07  <andythenorth> and group liveries cannot split the colours by vehicle type
15:38:19  <nielsm> make wagons only use the 1cc but have the 2cc select what kind of random variations show
15:39:26  <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I mentioned that, I can't color the one or two engineering station flat wagon to blue
15:39:39  <b_jonas> but they luckily look different enough even in the same color
15:40:01  <nielsm> maybe the group liveries should have a flag to control whether they apply to everything, only locos, or only wagons
15:40:12  <nielsm> (and then figure out how it determines what's a loco and what's not)
15:41:02  <andythenorth> game already knows that for buy menu sort order
15:41:09  <andythenorth> and for current liveries actually
15:42:25  <b_jonas> the game knows what's an engine because if you buy a lone engine then it counts as a train, if you buy a lone wagon it isn't a train
15:46:36  <andythenorth> there are shenanigans though
15:46:42  <andythenorth> is it an engine or a railcar?
15:46:47  <andythenorth> or an electric engine?
15:46:55  <andythenorth> is it a passenger coach or a freight wagon?
15:47:04  <andythenorth> the current livery UI has all the extra crap in it
15:51:40  <andythenorth> hmm, what if we just replaced it all?
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17:25:16  <andythenorth> hmm
17:25:25  <andythenorth> Horse depot sprites should maybe have text overlays
17:25:38  <andythenorth> 'ctrl-click this vehicle to change colour'
17:25:53  <andythenorth> can we increase size of depot sprites for trains?
17:25:59  <andythenorth> I need to write quite detailed instructions per vehicle
17:26:32  <andythenorth> about 400px high per train will be enough, at 2x zoom
17:26:54  <andythenorth> currently they are about 30px high at 2x zoom
17:31:50  <andythenorth>
17:33:34  <frosch123> i think we need a new term for BAD FEATURE. the old one is not sufficient
17:34:12  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
17:34:13  <andythenorth> ?
17:34:26  <frosch123> bad feature is not good enough, we need to go to ludicrous feature
17:35:33  <andythenorth> I am suspending judgement :)
17:41:04  <andythenorth> does nml have an XOR
17:41:19  <andythenorth> I am trying to do it by multiplying returns that are 1 or -1
17:41:24  <andythenorth> but it's not working :P
17:41:39  <frosch123> there should be a ^
17:41:56  <frosch123> blame C for using silly characters
17:42:14  <TrueBrain> Jam ... raspberry.. looonnneeessstttaaaarrrrrr
17:42:33  <TrueBrain> (In reference to the ludicrous feature)
17:42:49  <frosch123> good that you added that :)
17:43:12  <TrueBrain> For those that don't understand the reference: learn some culture
17:54:39  * andythenorth does bad things
17:56:14  <andythenorth> how about a little dice icon for the wagon that randomises crap
17:56:53  <andythenorth> this is a mad interface
17:57:02  <andythenorth> first wagon in ID chain toggle 1cc or 2cc Recolour
17:57:11  <andythenorth> last wagon makes it all same, or random per vehicle
17:57:20  <andythenorth> ctrl-click is the UI
17:59:26  <b_jonas> andythenorth: or just use the refit interface to do things with specific cars other than refitting
17:59:37  <andythenorth> I hate the livery spec
17:59:40  <andythenorth> I won't use it
18:00:02  <b_jonas> refit already has a nice interface to select specific cars, it could also do paint jobs or whatever modifications you want
18:00:30  <b_jonas> don't put little icons over cars, that'll just make the normal things more difficult to do
18:00:48  <b_jonas> especially not little icons that you have to click on
18:00:56  <b_jonas> there's a good reason why they don't have trashcan icons on them already
18:01:28  <b_jonas> plus I want to see what the train looks like in the depot window
18:01:32  <b_jonas> so no overlays
18:02:09  <andythenorth> I think overlays are the future :)
18:10:08  <andythenorth> frosch123 BAD enough?
18:10:15  <andythenorth>
18:15:59  <andythenorth> I probably really shouldn't
18:24:47  <_dp_> ron don don... xD
18:27:03  <andythenorth> so good
18:27:43  <_dp_> live on -: TEST Need For Speed :- server ;)
18:30:56  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> <- and if you click in the middle?
18:31:08  <andythenorth> flips the current colour of the vehicle
18:31:30  <andythenorth> that's current released behaviour
18:32:00  <andythenorth> it's about 50:50 whether I want random for a train or not
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18:41:23  <andythenorth> give me a simple counter for how many times ctrl-click has been used on a vehicle :P
18:42:55  <andythenorth> 4 bits would be enough :P
18:45:26  <_dp_> funnily enough that's probably doable with a patched server :p
18:45:42  <andythenorth> forks are the future?
18:46:10  <_dp_> forks are the present! :p
18:48:29  <andythenorth> hmm this does need vehicle overlay
18:48:33  <andythenorth> pixel dice!
18:48:57  <Wolf01> Yes, that's better
18:50:33  <andythenorth> better than...? :)
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19:12:08  <Wolf01> Better than ctrl+click
19:18:38  <andythenorth> well :)
19:18:44  <andythenorth> everyone seems to hate the ctrl-click
19:18:55  <andythenorth> but every other UI for livery has been rejected out of hand
19:22:24  <b_jonas> what's wrong with the refit dialog?
19:25:54  <nielsm> it's not part of the purchase UI, it's annoying to change just some of the wagons, and it's called refit instead of select variant or something like that
19:29:12  <andythenorth> the livery refit spec was mixed up with cargos for some reason
19:29:24  <andythenorth> so if there are 64 cargos in the game, it's very long menu
19:29:29  <andythenorth> just to choose a livery
19:30:25  <andythenorth> also it's called 'cargo subtypes' in the docs
19:30:39  <andythenorth> but all the realism sets call it 'livery' so we should retcon it
19:30:41  <andythenorth> like html5
19:40:32  <nielsm> "vehicle variants" would encompass both cargo and livery
19:40:58  <nielsm> and moving the button to the depot might also work, maybe
19:45:19  <andythenorth> it was just going to be done on IDs
19:45:24  <andythenorth> and disclosure in buy menu
19:45:29  <andythenorth> but that idea hasn't stuck :)
19:45:51  <andythenorth> we have plenty of IDs
19:46:14  <nielsm> something about the refits available only knowable after purchase?
19:48:25  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> everyone seems to hate the ctrl-click <- that's because hides features
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19:50:22  <andythenorth> but when I draw a GUI for it, it's rejected :)
19:50:25  <andythenorth> for getting in the way
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19:54:24  <andythenorth> I didn't see the problem :P
19:54:42  <Wolf01> That hides the vehicles :P
19:55:57  <Wolf01> We should raise the rows by some pixels and make space for options which are shown only if vehicles supports them
19:59:18  <andythenorth> that was rejected earlier :)
19:59:21  <andythenorth> I asked for 400 pixels
19:59:31  <andythenorth>
20:00:07  <glx> that's just silly ;)
20:00:24  <Wolf01> I was writing the same thing
20:02:28  <glx> maybe use the "dropdown" thing, but in vehicle window, there's a tab with each element on different lines
20:03:08  <glx> depot window is not the ideal place I think
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20:03:58  <andythenorth> it's weird that we accept modifiers all over the place
20:04:05  <andythenorth> ctrl-drag, shift-click
20:04:09  <andythenorth> even ctrl-click in depot etc
20:04:11  <nielsm> reimagine the entire purchasing and assembling trains UI
20:04:12  <andythenorth> and in operating systems
20:04:25  <andythenorth> but we think this one specific use of ctrl-click is too wrong?
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20:04:45  <andythenorth> why is it ctrl-click to flip the vehicle obviously correct?
20:04:59  <andythenorth> nielsm templates :P
20:06:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, it is wrong
20:06:38  <frosch123> the depot is mainly a train list, and for moving stuff between trains
20:06:47  <frosch123> it's not for designing indivudal trains
20:07:12  <frosch123> i guess the template-based train patch added a separate gui for desiging consists
20:07:34  <glx> for me vehicle variant should be an option of buy window, and in vehicle details window, it has nothing to do in depot window
20:08:48  <andythenorth> frosch123
20:08:49  <andythenorth> ?
20:09:00  <frosch123> the ctrl+click for reversing trains should be removed imo :)
20:09:30  <glx> yeah reversing is usually broken ;)
20:09:55  <andythenorth> ctrl-click should increment a counter :P
20:10:04  <andythenorth> anyway, the variants-in-buy-menu
20:10:10  <andythenorth> is not very representative
20:10:14  <andythenorth> due to group livery setting
20:10:25  <andythenorth> or other newgrf bollocks
20:11:05  <andythenorth> some kind of 'configure my train' window?
20:15:48  <andythenorth> the 'more random is better' that frosch123 likes is kind of the opposite of 'perfectly configure my train'
20:15:54  <andythenorth> not sure a configure UI helps there
20:17:11  <andythenorth> so maybe layered approach
20:17:55  <frosch123> yes, i am pretty much a "i build many trains, i do not design them one-by-one"-player
20:18:01  <andythenorth> proposal 1) OpenTTD (not newgrf) gains a 'random company colour per vehicle from range' option (probably tied to group, not individual trains?)
20:18:48  <andythenorth> proposal 2) something something variants, that can be chosen either (A) before purchase or (B) changed after purchase (more fun for player)
20:19:19  <andythenorth> I see no reason why newgrf should be able to forbid (1) even though some authors might disagree
20:22:21  <andythenorth> I do think it might need to have rules for different vehicles though, e.g. wagons vs. engines
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20:25:52  <glx> for a passenger train I think all wagons should use the same livery, but for a cargo train a different livery per wagon looks better
20:26:49  <andythenorth> rework of current CC livery UI then :)
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20:36:27  <Wolf01> <glx> for a passenger train I think all wagons should use the same livery, but for a cargo train a different livery per wagon looks better <- even on passenger trains there should be different graffitis
20:36:36  <glx> haha
20:37:06  <glx> yeah but a common color scheme for the graffiti background
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20:43:34  * _dp_ time to crack some NUTS
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21:45:34  <andythenorth> btw nml procedures have been so useful thanks :)
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