Log for #openttd on 18th August 2020:
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06:28:06  <andythenorth> yo
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07:41:38  <TrueBrain> so, what was next on my list of todo .. hmm
07:44:57  <andythenorth> MMORG
07:45:06  <andythenorth> read forums
07:45:08  <andythenorth> join reddit
07:45:22  <TrueBrain> I rather be productive :)
07:45:50  <andythenorth> you point out my errors? :P
07:48:42  <_dp_> What's the best way to count number of wagons with certain cargo type in the consist?
07:48:52  <_dp_> basically like count_veh_id but for refits
08:01:31  <TrueBrain> hmm ... MasterServer has the same complexity issue as BaNaNaS: I have an OpenTTD-client serving server, an updater, an API, and a web frontend
08:02:01  <TrueBrain> the first three need some centralized database, so they can read the data
08:02:11  <TrueBrain> but this time a GitHub repository won't work :P Information is too dynamic :)
08:03:48  <andythenorth> _dp_ use the var for it?
08:03:55  <andythenorth> maybe there isn't one
08:04:27  <_dp_> andythenorth, there is var to query each wagon but that doesn't sound very efficient
08:04:47  <andythenorth> write your own vars :P
08:05:04  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what was a good (free) tool to crawl a website for dead links?
08:05:23  <andythenorth> _dp_ that checks up to 127 vehicles forward, reading a var
08:05:37  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I use Integrity on the mac, that doesn't help _you_ though
08:05:45  <TrueBrain> nope :(
08:06:13  <andythenorth> sorry
08:06:31  <TrueBrain> no worries :)
08:06:57  <andythenorth> there are loads of free ones given by SEO companies
08:09:50  <TrueBrain> w3c has a website that does it for you too, funny
08:10:33  <andythenorth> we run this on a jenkins job, super useful (paid though)
08:10:55  <andythenorth> I also use this as well
08:11:16  <andythenorth> we have 4-5 validators running, creates good overlap
08:11:46  <andythenorth> all validators have some odd choices, spurious warnings etc
08:13:16  <TrueBrain> well, mostly, I am about to index FlySpray, and make a static copy out of it. So a validator afterwards telling me how I did would be nice :D
08:14:40  <andythenorth> we pay for them, time (and quality) versus money, no brainer
08:14:51  <andythenorth> I would say same for openttd, but eh, I'm not budget person :)
08:15:05  <andythenorth> I think we should spend money on things that make contributing more fun
08:15:12  <TrueBrain> the price is not worth the running only once :)
08:15:21  <andythenorth> +1
08:16:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, that looks like it just queries every wagon
08:16:28  <andythenorth> it does
08:16:38  <andythenorth> * every wagon in the chain
08:16:45  <_dp_> also I need it in properties callback so no var 61
08:16:46  <andythenorth> every time graphics runs
08:16:53  <andythenorth> ouch
08:16:57  <andythenorth> well
08:17:03  <andythenorth> server side patch then :)
08:17:43  <_dp_> well, if I could I'd gladly do it
08:17:52  <_dp_> but how do I pass value from server to newgrf?
08:17:54  <LordArtoo> TrueBrain: grepping the server logs for 404 works well :p
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08:18:00  <andythenorth> fork the newgrf spec
08:18:14  <_dp_> that's client patch :P
08:18:17  <TrueBrain> LordArtoo: does require someone accessing all the files first ;)
08:18:26  <LordAro> wget --spider
08:19:00  <LordAro> -r --spider, even
08:19:01  <TrueBrain> LordAro: for sure, but .. I was more hoping for a simpler solution
08:20:18  <_dp_> to bad bitmask_vehicle_info ore just OR'ed, can't quite do a good counter like that :(
08:24:28  <LordAro> TrueBrain: can't get a lot simpler than a single command, what sort of simplicity are you looking for?
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08:25:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, something with a hammer and everything is a nail :)
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08:25:28  <TrueBrain> but the docker image of seems to do the job :)
08:27:11  <TrueBrain> funny, we have broken links because we don't have a testing version up :) (on the main webpage)
08:30:53  <TrueBrain> okay, so what to index from FlySpray ..
08:31:02  <TrueBrain> the listings etc is not that useful .. so I guess only the issues themself
08:34:05  <andythenorth> we're archiving history?
08:34:17  * andythenorth assumes we don't want to just delete FS?
08:38:06  <TrueBrain> exactly
08:38:17  <TrueBrain> lot of old GitHub issues still link to FS
08:38:52  <TrueBrain> small effort to make it static and put it on an S3 bucket :)
08:40:26  <_dp_> what int type does nml use, int32?
08:56:22  <_dp_> looks like I broke nmlc xD
08:56:50  <andythenorth> congrats :)
08:56:52  <andythenorth> elite
08:58:25  <LordAro> well done
08:59:02  <TrueBrain> YOU WIN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Congratulations :)
09:03:12  <_dp_> looks like having 256 cases in one switch was one case too much xD
09:04:20  <andythenorth> 255 :)
09:04:39  <andythenorth> you can chain for more cases :P
09:05:04  <_dp_> I just combined some into ranges
09:05:11  <andythenorth> cheating :P
09:05:14  <andythenorth> far too sensible
09:05:29  <andythenorth> nml points are only awarded for doing things you shouldn't
09:05:43  <_dp_> do switches use lookup btw?
09:05:59  <andythenorth> [shrug emoji]
09:06:28  <andythenorth> it's not leet unless you're running 50k checks of variables, per vehicle, on every graphics paint
09:06:31  <_dp_> I think I get enough points as it is :p
09:06:47  <andythenorth> switch_doombringer_speed is quite nice
09:07:06  <andythenorth> this is a nice try, but far too readable
09:07:06  <andythenorth> [STORE_TEMP(LOAD_TEMP(0) * 50 + 200, 0)]
09:08:19  <_dp_> yeah, I didn't quite get to use python to turn this into unreadable mess yet :p
09:09:02  <andythenorth> this one is better
09:09:14  <andythenorth> I didn't even do that, it was possibly frosch :)
09:11:45  <_dp_> now, an interesting question is if that switch is faster than just adding 8 bits...
09:11:49  <_dp_> (hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 0) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 1) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 2) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 3) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 4) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 5) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 6) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 7)) * 50 + 200
09:13:36  <_dp_> it int was 64 bit I could just do (x * 0x200040008001 & 0x111111111111111) % 0xf
09:13:40  <_dp_> but I guess it isn't?
09:15:19  <andythenorth> 'faster' is pretty unknown afaik
09:15:57  <andythenorth> somebody with a detailed interest in profiling could be really fun to have around :)
09:15:57  <TrueBrain> so many dead links op flyspray .. so sad ...
09:17:16  <_dp_> well, I spent some time writing that damn switch so it better be faster xD
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09:19:34  <_dp_> oh, it can handle 256 cases, it just was 257 with default
09:19:37  <_dp_> perfection xD
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09:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that's in the "i hope you get paid by the line" category :p
09:27:56  <TrueBrain> by Matrix
09:27:57  <TrueBrain> bye
09:29:30  <_dp_> yeah... and now I'm spending even more time to figure out if switches are more effecient :/
09:29:41  <andythenorth> user more procedures :P
09:29:53  <andythenorth> how are you testing if the switches are efficient? :)
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09:30:11  <_dp_> I'm just reading the code...
09:30:21  <_dp_> though I did find some newgrf profiler there...
09:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i mean something like :)
09:32:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is using a generator cheating?
09:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
09:32:45  <andythenorth>
09:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i knew about the rats in vietnam thing
09:42:43  <TrueBrain> we have a bug-ticket that points to nasatv ... now I am curious :)
09:42:59  <TrueBrain>
09:42:59  <TrueBrain> lol
09:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds... fun :p
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09:51:33  <TrueBrain> they are bbbaaccccckkkk
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09:55:40  <TrueBrain> 640 outside links on the bug-tracker; most f them no longer work :P
09:58:02  <andythenorth> my validators tend to ruin my Mondays
09:58:07  <andythenorth> due to the rate of link-rot
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10:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you could make the president-approach and "test less"
10:09:05  <TrueBrain> we are not all idiots Eddi|zuHause
10:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> are we really? p
10:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
10:14:41  <TrueBrain> w00p, I have a static version of a task, including all the css, images, javascript, and possibly uploaded files
10:14:43  <TrueBrain> sweet :)
10:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno why youtube would suggest me a video about the cobra effect...
10:16:59  <andythenorth> omg, it's almost like the internet tracks you
10:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ... particularly, one i watched probably like 5 years ago
10:25:21  <_dp_> hm... if I disable all anti-tracking stuff will it make youtube to suggest something actually interesting?
10:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i do all my stuff in private browsing mode, and only watch the stuff i'm subscribed to in regular browsing mode. seems to help it along, but i wouldn't call it "good"
10:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> means the only method of tracking they should have is IP and maybe browser version/os
10:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i also tried wiping the youtube history. that turned out to be a bad idea
10:34:41  <_dp_> I don't even care that much, just using adblock and vpn yet youtube seems quite clueless
10:34:48  <_dp_> mb I just watched it whole already :/
10:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because that means now all the suggestions are filled with videos i watched just prior to the wipe, because they're related to videos i just watched
10:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's even though i cliked to keep the watched video list
10:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> turns out that's not what youtube uses to determine what videos you watched
10:37:37  <Timberwolf> YouTube for me has a similar problem to Spotify, in that I watch something relatively niche and it immediately tries to direct me to something popular with a weakly connected theme, rather than something strongly connected thematically.
10:38:47  <Timberwolf> e.g. if I watch someone tearing down and rebuilding the engine on an old Volvo, I am far more likely to get "watch this influencer drive a Lamborghini Aventador!" than "watch this guy rebuild a Cortina gearbox in his shed"
10:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, youtube had, at least for a while, a problem that this popularity rating was based on "engagement", and that meant "controversial", so you weren't noticing that the videos you watched were getting more extremistic
10:39:50  <Timberwolf> Oh yes, that.
10:40:49  <Timberwolf> I have a feeling that's still there, either that or the UI is bad because I like watching very uncontroversial videos and it's a constant pain to find them.
10:42:14  <Timberwolf> "You probably don't want to watch videos about arcane technical details of Space Quest that you actually subscribed to, so we'll hide them and give you 'why Call of Duty sucks' instead"
10:55:58  <andythenorth> I actually prefer YT learning about me
10:56:21  <andythenorth> then again it tries to surprise me out of my bubbgle
10:56:28  <andythenorth> bubbgle?  bubble
10:56:50  <andythenorth> so now and then it shows me some low-grade racist hysteria, or paranoid conspiracy stuff
10:56:59  <andythenorth> or scams
11:00:18  <TrueBrain> how is that outside your bubble?
11:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I actually prefer YT learning about me <-- maybe, but it doesn't seem to be learning the correct things
11:01:00  <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's my fault for watching a load of freeman-on-the-land videos 5 years ago :D
11:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> like "if i watched episode 1 through 8 of a series, don't show me episode 10. show me episode 9"
11:01:06  <andythenorth> YT ruined
11:12:17  <TrueBrain> I heavily underestimated how much data is on flyspray ...
11:12:23  <TrueBrain> over 2GB of data already, and I am not done yet :P
11:12:45  <LordAro> somewhat surprising
11:12:57  <LordAro> images, i guess?
11:12:57  <TrueBrain> lot of crashdumps
11:13:01  <TrueBrain> and even bmps :P
11:13:02  <LordAro> ah yes
11:13:39  <TrueBrain> biggest task so far is only 30MB
11:14:32  <TrueBrain> many savegames and crashdumps in that task
11:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no giant screenshots? :p
11:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> a giant screenshot of a 256^2 map should be around 25MB
11:17:25  <TrueBrain> none so far; only 7MB savegames :P
11:17:30  <TrueBrain> possibly the upload limit is 10MB btw :)
11:23:55  <TrueBrain> owh, no, an upload of 15MB .. another savegame :P
11:25:56  <TrueBrain> total of 4.2GB of data :) Lolz
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16:01:41  <_dp_> great, I just made a server that crashes clients :/
16:02:06  <_dp_> day of silly achievements
16:03:16  <TrueBrain>  Is it that kind of day :(
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16:16:52  <Timberwolf> Something weird: normally when I generate my set (using `nml -c`) the output GRF is ~28MB. However, if I re-render all the sprites the first couple of compiles the output will be 21MB, after which NML will regenerate every file in .nmlcache and it's back to 28MB.
16:17:29  <Timberwolf> Nothing seems obviously broken with the 21MB version, I wonder what it's doing :/
16:21:41  <andythenorth> oof I feel bad about this
16:21:47  <andythenorth> I should really do something to ban the translators
16:22:23  <andythenorth> it's just wasted work
16:22:47  <andythenorth> Timberwolf that does sound....odd
16:25:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, why not just release another update for firs 3 with it?
16:28:06  <_dp_> ERROR: Game Load Failed?(undefined string)
16:28:11  <_dp_> very helpful :p
16:48:34  <TrueBrain> it is not sure it failed? That is awesome :)
16:49:39  <_dp_> and I can't even find where this message comes from
16:49:49  <_dp_> I grepped everything I could thing of
16:50:36  <TrueBrain> :(
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16:54:57  <nielsm> going to look at a way to have "dynamic" translations for newgrfs
16:55:10  <nielsm> again
16:55:20  <TrueBrain> :D That sounds like a borat :)
16:55:33  <nielsm> TrueBrain you'd have to support it in bananas!
16:55:43  <TrueBrain> I have to do absolutely nothing! :D
16:55:55  <TrueBrain> (so happy with my time off :P)
16:56:01  <nielsm> like newgrfs being packed with additional translation files that can update without the id or compat of the newgrf updating at all
16:56:26  <_dp_> newgrf could use more "dynamic" in general
16:56:38  <TrueBrain> that could be pretty difficult .. but integrate it with eints, and you do have a nice platform :)
16:56:47  * _dp_ just butchered NUTS for sprites because it's not possible to just change properties in other grf
16:57:07  <_dp_> or, rather, callbacks, not properties
17:01:17  <_dp_> also, great idea of switching everything to wasm probably covers that as well
17:01:44  <_dp_> make dynamic translations and stuff with wasm -> put newgrf runner under wasm -> profit :p
17:02:04  <nielsm> I guess searching the newgrf for action 4, 8 and 14, and then giving replacements for the strings in them, by sprite id and string index
17:02:17  <nielsm> and something to make sure the "patching" matches the exact grf file
17:03:07  <TrueBrain> I was surprised to see WASM could be implemented with and without JIT :P
17:04:05  <nielsm> WASM is more or less a serialised parse tree of a structured language
17:04:18  <TrueBrain> bit like the clang IR
17:04:23  <TrueBrain> was how I read it at least
17:05:19  <TrueBrain> "Failed to create resource. Cannot request more certificates in this account. Contact Customer Service for details."
17:05:21  <TrueBrain> well, that is new
17:05:40  <TrueBrain> we have 20
17:05:41  <TrueBrain> lol
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17:14:57  <TrueBrain> one of the downsides of AWS .. there are random limits with very non-descriptive errors .. well, requested if they could increase that limit .. what-ever limit that is :D
17:19:32  <_dp_> cloudy errors :p
17:28:34  <TrueBrain> well, what is a bit idiotic in this case, that certificates are region-based .. I raised the limit in one, but I now hit the limit in another .. and the location of certificates is sometimes forced by the AWS service to be here or there :P
17:28:42  <TrueBrain> owh well .. support tickets go quick enough most of the time
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17:31:32  <SpComb> AWS ACM limits?
17:32:17  <TrueBrain> most likely
17:32:24  <TrueBrain> at least, my educated guess :P
17:32:50  <SpComb> default quota for number of ACM certificates is 1000, but may be lower for new accounts
17:33:16  <TrueBrain> yup ..
17:33:20  <TrueBrain> which doesn't help for the confusion
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17:33:25  <TrueBrain> but we had this in one region, which they fixed
17:33:30  <TrueBrain> and now I think I have it in another region
17:33:37  <TrueBrain> I was hoping they would just change it all to "default"
17:33:49  <TrueBrain> but in the world of AWS, "default" rarely is "default"
17:33:56  <TrueBrain> as calling OpenTTD's account "new" is stretching it :)
17:34:40  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: For (Send download URL via API), is this for a new web route?
17:35:51  <TrueBrain> doubtful; sounds more appropriate to augment an existing endpoint
17:36:30  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: The urls are not stored in the database. They are available upon request from the web api?
17:37:03  <TrueBrain> the ticket is about adding it to the API, so no (but I am sure I did not understand the question, as that was an open door)
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17:44:43  <andythenorth> so Warcraft 1 has a thing like station walking
17:45:02  <andythenorth> buildings can only build near other buildings
17:45:17  <andythenorth> but you can start construction of 1, then another, then cancel the 1st
17:45:34  <nielsm> heh
17:45:37  <andythenorth> cheap way to increase defensive perimeter
17:45:53  <andythenorth> it's not a bad game
17:46:04  <TrueBrain> lol; why are you playing W1?
17:46:06  <nielsm> like chains of sandbags in C&C1 or silos in RA
17:46:29  <TrueBrain> the sandbags trick, I remember that :)
17:48:02  <andythenorth> 'my liege'
17:48:09  <andythenorth> I just really like W1
17:48:14  <andythenorth> the sound design is good
17:48:17  <andythenorth> the colour palette is good
17:48:38  <andythenorth> the unit pathfinding is crap, you have to work around it too much
17:48:41  <andythenorth> and the unit control is crap
17:50:44  <andythenorth> anyway, I think we should make Train Painter
17:50:48  <andythenorth> inside ottd
17:51:06  <TrueBrain> go for it :)
17:51:11  <andythenorth> probably as a view on a group of trains
17:51:21  <andythenorth> TrueBrain ok I volunteer to be chief project manager!
17:51:28  <andythenorth> and ideation expert
17:51:31  <andythenorth> and motivation coach
17:51:32  <TrueBrain> now recruit some minions to do the work!
17:51:40  <andythenorth> I will also do the ISO 27001 for it
17:51:54  <andythenorth> and I will make sure it is cookie compliant
17:52:56  <TrueBrain> I am happy doesn't do cookies; easy to be compliant :)
17:53:09  <TrueBrain> well, possibly AWS adds a cookie; dunno tbh :P
17:53:38  <andythenorth> around about June this year
17:53:47  <andythenorth> I got to write "No cookies are used on this website"
17:53:50  <andythenorth> for company site
17:53:51  <andythenorth> was good
17:54:11  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, AWS adds sticky cookies, for the LB
17:54:40  <andythenorth> essential
17:54:46  <TrueBrain> yup
17:55:15  <andythenorth> ok so the cookies part is done
17:55:22  <andythenorth> now we just need train painting part
17:55:45  <andythenorth> company colour is stored per vehicle?
17:56:13  <andythenorth> let me put it another way, sometimes individual vehicles show wrong CC, after reload_newgrfs
17:56:19  <andythenorth> so I assume it's cached per vehicle
17:56:28  * andythenorth didn't read any like...code
17:57:10  <andythenorth> I call this method 'learning the spec by observing bug behaviour in unsupported edge cases'
17:59:49  <TrueBrain> strictly seen I can disable the cookies, as it really is only to keep connections sticky
18:00:07  <TrueBrain> downside of disabling them, is that people can hit different versions when it is rolling over to a new version :P
18:00:14  <TrueBrain> so yeah, essential cookie :)
18:01:01  <TrueBrain> and I also observed AWS is doing something with the certificate manager .. I have not seen the code, I did observe the edge cases  :D
18:03:34  <andythenorth> hmm I read rationalwiki for a bit earlier today
18:03:44  <andythenorth> and now YT is showing me conspiracy ads
18:03:46  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: Would this work?: /package/{content_type}/{unique_id}/download_url
18:03:53  <andythenorth> CONSPIRACY!!!
18:04:05  <TrueBrain> openttdguest: no; no new endpoint. It is a piece of metadata, so it should be added to an existing
18:04:42  <TrueBrain> if you look at the API specs (see swaggerhub link), that would make no sense, to make a new endpoint
18:06:18  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: I see. Have '/package/{content_type}/{unique_id}' add the url to the returned dict?
18:07:19  <frosch123> openttdguest: did you read the last comment in that issue?
18:08:09  <TrueBrain> openttdguest: if I would be to make a guess, but I have not really looked into this yet, it should be part of
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18:12:52  <openttdguest> frosch123: I read it now. I wrote the code to get the download url already.
18:27:43  <TrueBrain> curious how exactly, but I guess we will see with a PR :)
18:42:44  <TrueBrain> hmm .. MS Flight Sim already leaked? How does that work with the highres textures? :P
18:44:42  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: Well I might have to make is async
18:45:06  <TrueBrain> now I am a bit scared of what you did :) Maybe show your current progress to us?
18:56:17  <andythenorth> frosch123 Train Painter? o_O
19:00:42  <andythenorth> :o
19:00:44  * andythenorth has an idea
19:01:22  <frosch123> new dlc for tw?
19:01:55  <andythenorth> sort of
19:02:18  <andythenorth> web client for repainting trains
19:02:24  <andythenorth> with a connection to your running game
19:02:30  <andythenorth> OpenTTD + Train Manager
19:03:21  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
19:04:23  <_dp_> lol, that's sort of thing I would do
19:04:30  <_dp_> if I even cared about repainting them :p
19:04:54  <_dp_> you can make tw in newgrf though I just realized
19:05:03  <_dp_> in fact I almost did that today with nuts sprites
19:05:25  <andythenorth> yes
19:05:29  <andythenorth> maybe we should
19:05:36  <andythenorth> it's been a big success on the web
19:05:36  <TrueBrain>  andythenorth: generate grfs on the fly? :D
19:05:52  <andythenorth> web success => move it to OpenTTD
19:06:09  <frosch123> were can i put down bets that the 3rd add-on format for ottd will be html+js ?
19:07:01  <_dp_> I'd take html
19:07:08  <_dp_> especially with flexbox ;)
19:07:37  <andythenorth> <div><train id><switch><var>
19:08:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: do trains support <i> or <em>?
19:08:18  <andythenorth> well
19:08:36  <andythenorth> when somebody has won the semantic war, we'll be able to tell you
19:08:40  <andythenorth> if anybody is left alive
19:08:52  <andythenorth> italics are now supposed to be back in <i> again
19:08:59  <andythenorth> very orwellian
19:09:29  <frosch123> maybe bananas can enforce strict xhtml
19:09:35  <andythenorth> html5 is a master class in retcon
19:09:42  <andythenorth> <i> is now idiomatic
19:09:48  <andythenorth> "Historically, these have been presented using italicized type, which is the original source of the <i> naming of this element."
19:10:01  <andythenorth> <em> should now only be used for actual emphasis
19:10:06  <andythenorth> the time I spent converting those :(
19:10:11  <andythenorth> to please some total fuckwits
19:10:20  <andythenorth> could have been spent making train whack
19:10:59  <andythenorth> oh from the <i> page on MDN
19:11:03  <andythenorth> "pp><i class="latin">Musa</i> is one of two or three genera in the family <i class="latin">Musaceae</i>; it includes bananas and plantains.</p>"
19:11:06  <andythenorth> how topical :)
19:12:12  <frosch123> did rubidium write that?
19:12:33  <andythenorth> 'probably'
19:12:36  <andythenorth> 'not'
19:13:21  <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: make a program that takes train grf and makes TW out of it
19:15:10  <andythenorth> yes, but what software can read a newgrf? o_O
19:15:18  <frosch123> imagine the drama if there was a tool that would create train screenshots from any grf with braking vans in the wrong position
19:15:26  <andythenorth> that would be rad
19:15:56  <andythenorth> I am considering using brakevans to modify train properties
19:16:23  <frosch123> V wanted to make a trainset, where the wagons define the properties of the train
19:16:33  <andythenorth> I thought he did in NUTS? :P
19:16:38  <andythenorth> oh that was emotional trains
19:16:47  <frosch123> like how many power, how fast, what loading speed, ...
19:16:52  <andythenorth> I think I can do it super realistic
19:17:07  <TrueBrain> What is tw?
19:17:10  <_dp_> frosch123, ehm, that's exactly what I'm doing right now xD
19:17:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, not like nuts. more like: code your own trainset within ottd
19:17:15  <_dp_> even with NUTS sprites...
19:17:28  <andythenorth> JUST USE INVISIBLE VEHICLES
19:17:44  <andythenorth> each vehicle has 1 bit of information available, due to flip
19:17:50  <frosch123> _dp_: V explained it to me with f modules :p
19:17:53  <andythenorth> assuming that cargo subtypes is something only silly people would use
19:18:13  <_dp_> frosch123,
19:18:15  <andythenorth> so 8 vehicles is quite a lot of information potential
19:18:22  <andythenorth> and there can be many types of vehicle
19:18:26  <andythenorth> and many possible orders
19:18:28  <andythenorth> and flip
19:18:38  <andythenorth> orders / combinations /s
19:18:39  <frosch123> _dp_: you added a "speed" cargo? :p
19:18:53  <_dp_> frosch123, yep, speed and power! xD
19:20:08  * andythenorth considers how this might work
19:20:27  <andythenorth> I miss some sort of purpose for it :)
19:20:32  <andythenorth> other than lolz
19:20:43  <andythenorth> so engines are just a 1hp shell?
19:21:34  <_dp_> well, I'm making a train racing minigame so it all has a perfect purpose :p
19:22:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: you pick 1 of 100 engine for the graphics, 1 of 10 wagon for the speed, 1 of 5 wagons for loading speed, and then a generic wagon to define the length of the train
19:22:24  <frosch123> the grf figures out the rest of the graphics
19:23:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: think of it like a fighting game. you need to figure out the correct wagon combos, to get the nice sprites
19:23:58  <_dp_> puzzle, until you figure out the correct order it won't leave the depot :p
19:24:18  <frosch123> maybe you should only have 6 wagons: L, R, U, D, A, B
19:24:27  <andythenorth> are some combinations just horrible to look at?
19:24:38  <frosch123> pick any subset to build a train
19:24:48  <andythenorth> L Punch!
19:24:52  <andythenorth> R Kick!
19:24:57  <frosch123> most will result in dull graphics, but some in nice and powerful ones
19:25:24  <andythenorth> can we combine it with some of numerology woo?
19:25:27  <andythenorth> hidden encodes
19:25:33  <andythenorth> illuminati shit?
19:25:50  <frosch123> yes, encoding the number A0 will make it invisible
19:26:04  <frosch123> but still occupy space
19:26:15  <andythenorth> woo!
19:26:18  <andythenorth> conspiracy
19:26:53  <frosch123> also, is V sober again?
19:27:59  <andythenorth> did I miss something?
19:28:06  <_dp_> hidden code to change day length!
19:28:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: friday was official factorio release
19:28:31  <_dp_> though considering how ineffecient all those chain calculations are it may even be real...
19:31:59  * andythenorth designs Train Painter
19:32:21  <andythenorth> I think we need a paint brush, and a paint bucket
19:32:31  <andythenorth> paint brush paints vehicles one at a time with CC
19:32:38  <andythenorth> paint bucket fills right from vehicle you click on
19:32:53  <andythenorth> also super paint bucket, paints all trains in group
19:33:37  <andythenorth> the history of proposed vehicle modifying stuff is a history of menu driven design
19:33:46  <andythenorth> but we don't build the train tracks with a menu
19:35:26  <andythenorth> OpenTTD 2, including Train Painter!
19:35:37  <andythenorth> all my ideas for vehicle variants were menu drien
19:35:42  <andythenorth> drien?  Driven
19:35:52  <andythenorth> cargo subtypes is menu driven
19:35:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: can you also drag&drop different engines into the train?
19:35:59  <andythenorth> groups and autoreplace menu driven
19:36:03  <andythenorth> frosch123 :o
19:36:07  <andythenorth> that's Train Painter 2
19:36:13  <andythenorth> or even Train Painter ^ 2
19:36:34  <andythenorth> new wheels!
19:36:37  <andythenorth> a spoiler!
19:36:39  <andythenorth> body kit
19:36:41  <andythenorth> vinyls
19:37:37  <frosch123> better steering
19:37:51  <andythenorth> better speakers
19:38:05  <andythenorth> trams also need steering
19:38:21  <frosch123> oh boy. speakers are the scariest thing in new trains
19:38:57  <frosch123> when you are used to inaudible announcements, and suddenly it is as clear as your smartphone
19:39:10  * andythenorth hasn't been outside for a while
19:39:23  <andythenorth> and outside encompasses 'inside' when it refers to trains
19:40:08  <andythenorth> I think all this is great!
19:40:17  <andythenorth> but I was just envisaging applying company colour per vehicle :P
19:40:20  <andythenorth> and maybe
19:40:41  <andythenorth> allowing alternative newgrf defined sprites per vehicle, using maybe a format for specifying alternative spritesets
19:40:52  <andythenorth> no vars, no newgrf action 2 chain for it
19:41:07  <andythenorth> just openttd understands that a vehicle has n spriteset choices, and player picks 1
19:41:29  <andythenorth> like 'skins' :P
19:46:20  <frosch123> do you also want to hand-pick the cargo that is loaded at stations? drag the caterpillar on the 3rd flatbed car. put the containers on the others, in your favorite order
19:48:22  <andythenorth> passengers in the coaches
19:48:51  <andythenorth> frosch123 also a dice tool
19:48:59  <andythenorth> so you can just drag it over trains for random
19:49:06  <frosch123> good idea. every passenger has a bio, and you can either put singles next to each other. or political enemies
19:49:15  <andythenorth> love stories!
19:49:27  <andythenorth> this would significantly improve passenger cdist
19:50:09  <TrueBrain> Policital enemies.. love stories .. riiigggghhhhttt
19:50:40  <frosch123> you can also seat js and haskell programmers next to each other
19:51:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, my point is. i don't consider ottd a game where you design individual trains
19:51:42  <andythenorth> oh :o
19:51:46  <andythenorth> you hide it so well :)
19:51:50  <frosch123> :p
19:52:16  <andythenorth> I should have stopped at company colour :P
19:52:43  <frosch123> [21:39] * andythenorth hasn't been outside for a while <- maybe that's where it went wrong?
19:52:51  <andythenorth> I would agree
19:52:58  <andythenorth> but I think it went wrong before then
19:56:34  <andythenorth> most of my trains actually look like
19:56:58  <andythenorth> designing very individual trains is not a goal :P
19:57:04  <andythenorth> I can draw them if I want that
20:00:00  <andythenorth> :o maybe there's a var to read the player-defined company colours?
20:01:54  <b_jonas> andythenorth: I think someone said that there isn't because the player-defined colors can differ per client and they don't want behavior that has to be in sync to depend on that
20:01:55  * andythenorth looks in 80+
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20:02:28  <andythenorth> oh that is a good point b_jonas
20:02:30  <frosch123> b_jonas: in this case, the var exists, but the var may lie
20:02:44  <andythenorth> I know there's a var for vehicle colour, I'm using it :)
20:02:56  <frosch123> the var will always report the company colors, even is you configured "only show company colours for own vehicles"
20:02:56  <andythenorth> I wondered if there was a var, for e.g. player setting for wagons etc
20:03:17  <andythenorth> I could just remap the group-defined 1cc and 2cc back to player global setting for wagons
20:03:22  <b_jonas> frosch123: so it uses the colors that the owner of the train set? because then it's useful
20:03:34  <frosch123> b_jonas: yes, it does exactly that
20:03:47  <b_jonas> that's good
20:03:59  <andythenorth> var 018 company's colour scheme
20:04:02  <andythenorth> doesn't look useful
20:04:08  <andythenorth> (offset 018, not var)
20:04:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can only read the final color for a vehicle, not the rules that defined it
20:05:13  <andythenorth> maybe I make my own rules, and ban certain colours
20:05:16  <andythenorth> this could be on a parameter
20:05:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you should draw vehicles in color "company_color + 1"
20:05:51  <frosch123> and wait when player report bugs that the dropdowns show the wrong color
20:06:04  <frosch123> then make a hotfix release which changes it into "+2"
20:06:42  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:06:59  <andythenorth> group livery white + blue
20:07:01  <frosch123> ofc you could also just swap green and red
20:07:02  <andythenorth> wagons are white
20:07:05  <frosch123> and tell people they are blind
20:07:06  <andythenorth> and they carry salt :P
20:07:15  <andythenorth> frosch123 that is probably a WCAG violation
20:07:26  <andythenorth> we connect to bananas, so we're a web app
20:07:31  <andythenorth> so we're in scope for WCAG 2.1
20:07:36  <andythenorth> oof
20:07:46  * andythenorth might be creatively lying about that one
20:07:59  <frosch123> do they have rules about <i> and <em>?
20:08:08  <andythenorth> somewhat
20:08:19  <andythenorth> it will be a valid implementation technique
20:08:25  <andythenorth> for conveying meaning semantically
20:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a WCAG?
20:09:29  <b_jonas> what is WCAG?
20:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> World Congress of Abstract Geometry?
20:10:00  * andythenorth clearly lives in a different world of compliance
20:10:01  <andythenorth> swap?
20:10:41  <andythenorth> also train 48, so good
20:11:50  <b_jonas> I don't see how that would work, because (1) I know I'm not color blind at all, I had a shitton of tests for that while I was a child during normal optometrist examinations, (2) I can take a screenshot and ask the computer to tell me what color it is
20:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not sure what you think we should be seeing there
20:13:17  <andythenorth> a bit train?
20:13:20  <andythenorth> big train *
20:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and we've never seen a big train before?
20:14:58  <andythenorth> this one goes to 11
20:24:13  <Wolf01> At least does it work in game or only in depot?
20:35:05  <Wolf01> You should do even the soviet 4-14-4 and forbid even 45° turns, only straight rails :P
20:37:07  <andythenorth> vehicle instigated crashes?
20:37:14  <andythenorth> 'this train has derailed'
20:39:02  <Wolf01> 25% probability of derailment when taking turns
20:39:29  <Wolf01> Make it randomly stop broken down on curves XD
20:39:32  <b_jonas> Wolf01: that should depend on speed, so eg. you can take turns more safely close to a depot where the trains slows down anyway
20:40:11  <andythenorth> invert the tilt factor property :P
20:40:31  <Wolf01> Except that locomotive destroyed the tracks wven at low speed
20:40:37  <b_jonas> also add attacks by indians as disasters if you build on their territory (depending on the year you're in) and animal-related disasters like sheep grazing on the trian
20:40:38  <Wolf01> *even
20:40:41  <andythenorth> TRAIN_FLAG_TILT
20:40:42  <b_jonas> sheep grazing on the tracks
20:40:47  <b_jonas> also collapsing bridges
20:40:47  <frosch123> xussr set has broad gauge, doesn't it?
20:41:02  <andythenorth> there's some kind of debate about that
20:41:08  <andythenorth> railtype labels or something
20:41:22  * andythenorth should draw a train
20:41:27  <andythenorth> I drew one already today
20:41:49  <b_jonas> as for less than 45° turns, we'd need a different system of building tracks, such as the one from Locomotion and Railroad tycoon, for that.
20:42:04  <b_jonas> no sorry
20:42:11  <b_jonas> I mean Locomotion or Roller-coaster tycoon
20:42:28  <b_jonas> the latter even has tilted tracks
20:44:54  <_dp_> merge openttd with openrct! :p
20:46:14  <_dp_> open world automata
20:47:08  <andythenorth> do a factorio clone
20:51:55  <Wolf01> Integrate F into OTTD, so you can create the industries you want without FIRS
20:52:41  * _dp_ never really understood factorio
20:53:09  <Wolf01> I played 20 hours in the last 3 days :P
20:54:18  * _dp_ played 3 hours in last 20 years :p
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