Log for #openttd on 19th August 2020:
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03:18:03  <Gustavo6046> My trains break the whole time
03:18:12  <Gustavo6046> And just as I say that, they magically stop doing so.
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06:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i never play with breakdowns
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07:45:38  <andythenorth> yo
07:46:07  <Wolf01> o/
07:48:04  * andythenorth forsees many Horse parameters
07:48:12  <andythenorth> bad idea :)
07:53:13  <TrueBrain> as long as you make a clear ingame window to configure that, it is fine :P
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08:02:37  <TrueBrain> and the default reply from AWS .. they need to talk to the service team if I am allowed more certificates .. while I requested the default value .. you would think that is okay .. why else would it be default :P
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08:29:41  <andythenorth> maybe a parameter for how many parameters
08:29:44  <andythenorth> TrueBrain that sounds lolz
08:30:01  <Wolf01> andythenorth: and parameters with parameters
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08:46:16  <TrueBrain> did you know Microprose is back? They closed in, what, 2003?
08:46:21  <TrueBrain> they reopened in May
08:47:06  <Wolf01> Are they chinese now?
08:47:16  <TrueBrain> no, not even that
08:47:38  <TrueBrain>
08:47:40  <TrueBrain> I -think-
08:47:50  <TrueBrain> (always difficult to know if someone setup a smokescreen or not)
08:49:42  <TrueBrain> I mention this as we have an email of the CEO if we can talk; very hard to validate if it is a legit request :)
08:49:55  <Wolf01> I think I need to register to see that content
08:50:22  <TrueBrain> it worked in an incognito window for me :P
08:50:55  <Wolf01> Still doesn't work :P
08:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it says May 2018 there
08:51:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup; but in every publication it is mentioned that May 2020 is the month they got back in action
08:51:54  <TrueBrain> guess they were on it for 2 years already behind the screens or what-ever .. I dunno
08:51:58  <TrueBrain> this can also all be fake, for all I know
08:52:34  <LordAro> TrueBrain: mm, we (devs) have already discussed it
08:52:43  <LordAro> but you weren't there for that discussion :p
08:52:55  <TrueBrain> not your worst loss :)
08:53:03  <TrueBrain> I am just surprised Microprose exists again
08:53:19  <LordAro> mm
08:53:31  <TrueBrain> and kinda curious what he has to say :P
08:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it surely can't be "we bought the rights to transport tycoon"
08:54:28  <TrueBrain> LordAro: so what was the outcome of the (devs)? :)
08:54:36  <LordAro> "ask him what he wants"
08:54:39  <LordAro> essentially :p
08:54:59  <TrueBrain> cool; who was going to take care of that, out of curiosity?
08:55:30  <LordAro> possibly pm
08:55:52  <TrueBrain> lol .. the infamous: "someone was" :)
08:55:55  <LordAro> there wasn't a "i'm going to do this" message at any point, looking back
08:56:27  <TrueBrain> so everyone is assuming someone else is? :D :D
08:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm glad that we're such a highly organized project :)
08:56:45  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: this is normal in ANY meeting
08:57:07  <TrueBrain> if you don't exit a meeting with setting who is taking what actions, things fall through the cracks in any organisation :)
08:57:16  <TrueBrain> not saying that is the case here btw
08:57:20  <TrueBrain> just what is pretty common :)
08:57:50  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, at least there was no reply from info@ as of yet, but that doesn't say there wasn't a reply from a dev-only mail ofc :)
08:59:28  * andythenorth clicked the linkedin link
08:59:37  <andythenorth> then had all the linkedin shit to attend to
08:59:41  <andythenorth> forgot to read his page
09:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i ALWAYS open random links in private browsing mode
09:00:48  <andythenorth>
09:01:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i set "firefox -private-window" as my standard browser
09:01:48  <andythenorth> "We have in motion a couple of classics that many MicroProse fans are asking for daily. "
09:02:46  <TrueBrain> w00p, AWS ACM limit is increased
09:02:54  <Wolf01> they missed TTDlx
09:03:17  <andythenorth> yeah we should talk to them
09:03:52  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: psst, we are the remaster :)
09:04:02  <andythenorth> TrueBrain you going to email him, or want me to?
09:04:16  <TrueBrain> neither; LordAro just told us they got it covered :)
09:04:20  <TrueBrain> no need to stick our nose in everything :)
09:04:36  <Wolf01> TB: no, we are the open alternative, like OpenRA and the Red alert remaster ;)
09:04:38  <andythenorth> did NML get released?
09:04:47  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: fair point :)
09:05:28  <Wolf01> *red alert -> c&c
09:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i haven't even heard of most of these games before
09:18:34  <andythenorth> wow I just had a very weird idea
09:18:39  <andythenorth> we could all do a video call!
09:18:42  <andythenorth> let's not :P
09:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even have a webcam
09:20:53  <Wolf01> Me too, and this seem to make my boss uncomfortable :D
09:21:45  <TrueBrain> how ... do you not ... have a webcam with all this covid stuff going on?
09:23:10  <LordAro> i'm not sure i want to learn what you all look like :p
09:23:18  <LordAro> it'd ruin the mystery of it
09:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> there do exist photos of some of us
09:23:55  <Wolf01> Not of me :P
09:24:22  <Wolf01> Maybe yes but I'm not tagged so nobody couldn't find me
09:24:57  <Wolf01> *remove a negation somewhere
09:25:42  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you never been to a meetup? That is such a shame ..
09:26:27  <LordAro> never did get to 30k commits
09:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> we'll never know when r30k happens
09:26:44  <TrueBrain> we should bribe pm to do one at his place again :)
09:26:49  <LordAro> and moving to git only dropped the commit count :p
09:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> not convinced it's the right time for a party :)
09:27:09  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: github does display number of commits
09:27:20  <LordAro> not entirely sure if that's per branch or something else though
09:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yes, but there were skipped revisions that github doesn't know about
09:28:01  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: fair point, so .. virtual party! WEBCAMS! :D
09:28:36  <Wolf01> Best I can do is to put my avatar :P
09:32:42  <andythenorth> I always turn the camera off on video calls now
09:32:49  <andythenorth> saves battery
09:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you're supposed to put tape over the webcam
09:34:00  <Wolf01> That will crack the screen, remember that he use Apple ;)
09:34:53  <LordAro> regardless, i'm not actually opposed to the idea
09:35:47  <Wolf01> I'm not able to talk in English IRL, so...
09:36:00  <TrueBrain> you can type, that is fine :)
09:36:17  <Wolf01> Then every day is a party for me :D
09:36:25  <TrueBrain> you can freely laugh at the english produced by most people :)
09:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> most of us aren't native english speakers
09:38:55  <andythenorth> not even sure I am
09:39:07  <Timberwolf> At least you have the excuse.
09:39:38  * Timberwolf has a habit of forgetting the actual word for something and going through a similar process to the creation of some of the stranger German compound nouns, but in English.
09:39:40  <andythenorth> my typed English here is consistently worse than e.g. Eddi|zuHause
09:39:54  <andythenorth> I make more mistakes, more typos, and say things that make less sense
09:40:21  <TrueBrain> but I doubt that is related to your English as such :P
09:40:25  <TrueBrain> (this is too easy, I am sorry)
09:41:00  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I make more mistakes, more typos, and say things that make less sense <- the Italian I talk isn't even Italian
09:41:00  <TrueBrain> I need a new spinning disk to store a backup of the old OpenTTD infra
09:41:02  <TrueBrain> lolz
09:43:18  <Wolf01> what a shit... luckily I'm going for the HTC one
09:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> my typed English here is consistently worse than e.g. Eddi|zuHause  <-- well, i've been around the internet a few times, and it's been very consistent that the native english speakers type the worst english
09:45:37  <LordAro> u fkin wot m8
09:46:51  <andythenorth> ikr lolz y
09:47:00  <andythenorth> u ok hun?
09:47:20  <Timberwolf> I wonder if this is a similar phenomenon to minicab drivers having a worse standard of driving than the average driver?
09:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but on the last party i met Belugas, and he was very surprised how bad my spoken english was. i have a really thick accent
09:50:47  <Wolf01> You would be sursprised on my accent too, like on th phonems, also I tend to confuse hard c/g with soft c/g as in Italian they are the opposite of English
09:52:36  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it was fun to have Belugas over :D
09:52:38  <andythenorth> see this is what I hang out here for
09:52:39  <andythenorth> shed chat
09:53:09  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: as it turns out, nobody really cares :P It is about understanding each other more than speaking correctly
09:53:21  <Wolf01> Yeah
09:53:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there were people on that party that didn't speak any english at all
09:53:35  <andythenorth>
09:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> why can't it be women's sheds?
09:54:12  <andythenorth> it can
09:54:18  <TrueBrain> in Dutch we have a saying: "met handen en voeten praten", meaning that with your hands and feet you can always make yourself known
09:54:25  <andythenorth> it's not exclusively gendered
09:54:41  <andythenorth> but there's gendered behaviour that men are less good at making social connections without a shared interest
09:55:01  <andythenorth> I see this with parents at my kids school all the time
09:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> gender studies majors would have a field day on that topic
09:55:38  <andythenorth> there is a pretty wide field they can study
09:55:43  <andythenorth> throw a rock, hit an issue
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10:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm very conflicted about gender studies. part of me screams "it's not a real science", part of me says "but clearly something needs to be done" and part of me says "they're not picking the right battles"
10:14:46  <andythenorth> people need to be kept busy
10:14:50  <andythenorth> otherwise they'd change stuff
10:16:27  <Eddi|zuHause> a recent newspaper column called it "anger snobs". and picked an example where the author walked past a couple in a mall, one of whom didn't wear a mask, and the other wore it incorrectly. he would then direct his anger at the person who wears the mask incorrectly, wheras the person with no mask would be the bigger problem
10:17:21  <andythenorth> I fall into that fallacy
10:17:38  <andythenorth> people wearing bike helmets wrong
10:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's also why the people on the left always fight each other, about who isn't left enough.
10:18:46  <andythenorth> also a trigger :P
10:18:56  <andythenorth> one of the reasons I quit FB
10:26:52  <andythenorth> hmm nobody fights from the centre
10:27:02  <andythenorth> in tank doctrine that makes sense, you fight from a flank
10:27:16  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> otherwise they'd change stuff <- that's the philosophy behind factorio, you go into combat or construction or else you'll end up restructuring the entire factory
10:27:26  <andythenorth> because getting shot on two sides is at least twice as bad as getting shot from one side
10:27:38  <andythenorth> possibly more than twice, because tank armour is oriented to the front
10:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> my observation is politicians on the right tend to claim they are in the "center"
10:28:32  <andythenorth> whereas on the left being in the center is ideological impurity?
10:28:59  <andythenorth> my tank doctrine is currently to drive to the middle of the map and fight from there
10:29:03  <andythenorth> but I am mostly driving this
10:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> they always say the english are the masters of understatement, and then the germans call their biggest tank "maus"... :p
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10:31:38  <andythenorth> americans are masters of marketing, but all their tanks have confusing numeric designations
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10:57:52  <TrueBrain> right, so the AWS ACM limit was the reason .. I can provision certificates again \o/
10:57:53  <TrueBrain> w00p
10:58:01  <TrueBrain> happy educated guesses can be right :)
11:03:00  <TrueBrain> right, dev-space .. guess we can all just migrate that to gist and/or github .. let see who has been using it lately ..
11:06:01  <TrueBrain> very limited activity .. mostly images
11:06:23  <TrueBrain> newer devs even never got a space, I see :)
11:08:23  <TrueBrain> seems there are some HTML files that are still popular
11:13:01  <TrueBrain> hihi, uploading to AWS with 27 MB/s .. yes, MB .. :)
11:15:39  * andythenorth jealous
11:16:17  <TrueBrain>
11:16:22  <TrueBrain> can anyone spot any issue?
11:16:26  <TrueBrain> it should be a static page :)
11:16:33  <TrueBrain> all links should work etc
11:17:20  * andythenorth clicks random stuff
11:17:25  <andythenorth> not a very viable testing strategy :)
11:17:40  <andythenorth> contains a link to
11:17:43  <andythenorth> which Chrome hates
11:17:53  <TrueBrain> lol, indeed
11:18:03  <TrueBrain> does work
11:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's called "fuzzing" :p
11:18:06  <TrueBrain> I will fix that
11:18:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause well we should automate it :P
11:18:40  <andythenorth> I can't see anything, do you want to me run the link validator over it?
11:20:07  <TrueBrain> you can't really, but I can, and will :)
11:20:13  <TrueBrain> just wanted a second opinion if this looks right :)
11:20:13  <andythenorth> nothing configured at the root?
11:20:32  <TrueBrain> no; I will fix it redirects to GitHub
11:21:13  <andythenorth> your trello will be empty soon
11:21:16  <andythenorth> time for MMORG openttd
11:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> MMOPENTTDRG?
11:22:12  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: sadly, that is a long way away :(
11:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just cobble something up in RPGMaker, like everyone else does? :p
11:22:50  <TrueBrain> FlySpray link fixed
11:22:58  * Eddi|zuHause has no clue what he's talking about
11:23:09  <TrueBrain> neither do I, so it is fine
11:23:22  <andythenorth> we should upgrade to a more recent FlySpray
11:25:57  <TrueBrain> how about ... no?
11:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the point was to get rid of flyspray, and only keep this static backup with next to no maintenance effort
11:27:38  <TrueBrain> you are correct, and andythenorth  was being a troll :)
11:36:21  <TrueBrain> right, ordered a new disk, so I can make backups of OpenTTD VMs, and destroy the VM online :)
11:36:42  <TrueBrain> means I can clean up shit tomorrow :)
11:43:38  <TrueBrain> wow, this link checker is taking for ever .. 3 links per second .. it has over 6000 links to validate :P
11:43:39  <TrueBrain> lol
11:51:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably just a rate limit?
11:52:59  <TrueBrain> no, it is written in Python ..
11:53:08  <TrueBrain> pretty sure there is the issue :)
11:55:57  <_dp_> what are you doing with those links for language to matter, pagerank? :p
11:56:22  <TrueBrain> checking .. for valid links? Hence the: link checker? :)
11:57:27  <TrueBrain> and the tool is written in Python, not the static website it is crawling :P
11:58:39  <_dp_> well, none of that sound like a cpu-bound task :p
11:58:54  <TrueBrain> you would think it is not
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12:12:46  <supermop_Home> hi
12:24:19  <TrueBrain> yeah, turns out it takes Python 3 seconds to analyze the HTML files .. very odd, this link checker
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12:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like you're doing something wrong
12:25:33  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is the easy way out .. blame the user ;)
12:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> like firing up a separate python instance for every link
12:25:59  <TrueBrain> I have no clue what this tool does, but efficient it is not
12:26:21  <TrueBrain> but I am happy you consider me the developer of this tool, or what-ever ;)
12:26:26  <TrueBrain> (I am not, to be clear)
12:26:48  <TrueBrain> morning glx :) Today I finally got to migrating away .. as we talked about MONTHS ago, this also means your mailbox there is gone :(
12:27:00  <TrueBrain> if this is an issue, let me know :) (but I assumed it still wasn't :P)
12:27:05  <glx> ah that's why it timed out
12:27:07  <TrueBrain> (and we talk about opendune here, not openttd :D)
12:27:24  <TrueBrain> I know I said months ago I was going to do it ... I failed in that task :P
12:27:39  <glx> well opendune email is linked to github, as is openttd email
12:27:45  <glx> so not a big loss
12:28:02  <TrueBrain> :) If it is ever any issue, just let me know
12:28:20  <TrueBrain> the dev-space there is the biggest loss .. people were still downloading the scenario-pack I had on there :P
12:28:34  <TrueBrain> but .. it is time to cleanup stuff that isn't maintained for 5+ years :D
12:29:12  <glx> I think I had some pdb on my dev space, but not sure
12:29:31  <TrueBrain> I can always fetch the files; but there were no new files in months there
12:29:48  <glx> yeah was for old opendune versions
12:30:48  <TrueBrain> well, we didn't do anything with them last time we talked about it .. guess it is fine :D
12:31:00  <TrueBrain> no, but seriously, let me know if it is not; no data is lost, I just changed the DNS
12:34:12  <TrueBrain> still cannot believe we managed to do OpenDUNE at all :) Ghehe
12:34:21  <TrueBrain> and, well, finish it :)
12:35:16  <glx> there's still activity on it
12:35:32  <TrueBrain> 3 commits this year
12:35:34  <TrueBrain> not really :P
12:43:02  <TrueBrain> weird, the linkchecker doesn't become faster with more threads .. so it is hitting some non-IO limit ..
12:43:16  <TrueBrain> seems it is just having a hard time with the HTML files or something
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13:18:16  <TrueBrain> wow, it even found a broken link, w00p .. this was not for nothing :D
13:25:30  <milek7> what that w00p means?
13:25:43  <LordAro> same as w00t
13:27:04  <milek7> doesn't really help :P
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13:57:46  <TrueBrain>
13:57:50  <TrueBrain> google is difficult ;)
14:00:32  <TrueBrain> and as you can read LordAro , it is not the same as w00t .. only kinda :)
14:09:34  <LordAro> i do apologise
14:09:48  <TrueBrain> <3
14:10:29  <LordAro> :p
14:39:36  <TrueBrain> right, found ~70 bad links .. fixed them all I think .. lets check again :)
14:42:42  <TrueBrain> owh boy, I kinda failed it seems ... still 45 broken :) Lol
14:44:15  <TrueBrain> lol, seems to be a bug in the linkchecker .. %2B is not working correctly :) How cute
14:44:36  <TrueBrain> it changes %2B in a +, which it is, but doesn't urlencode it before requesting the file .. and a + is a space :D
14:44:38  <TrueBrain> fun :)
14:46:40  <LordAro> lol
14:54:22  <nielsm> urlencoding is too hard
14:54:50  <nielsm> whoever decided that in the query string spaces should be represented by + must have been smoking something
15:01:13  <TrueBrain> + or %20, that is the worst part :P
15:01:26  <TrueBrain> so many ways to encode
15:03:25  <_dp_> "Bridges are currently not implemented in NML."
15:03:39  <_dp_> So do I have to nfo if I want to change bridge speeds? :(
15:03:40  <TrueBrain> so how do you get to the other side?
15:04:02  <Wolf01> Drain the canal
15:05:16  <TrueBrain> I am happy we are so helpful :)
15:06:22  <Wolf01> Why for the glory of satan all the movies I want to see are in mandarin?
15:08:28  <TrueBrain> okay, copying the static version of to production now .. means I can flip the DNS switch, sit back, and relax :)
15:08:37  <glx> _dp_:
15:08:49  <glx> (untested by me)
15:09:34  <_dp_> oh, cool
15:09:36  <glx> but I guess basic stuff should work
15:11:26  <_dp_> though I think I'll just try to change bridge types first :p
15:11:42  <_dp_> since 4-tile bridges do go up to 600kmh
15:11:59  <TrueBrain> okay, within the hour should be static :) (depending on your DNS cache) :D
15:12:12  <TrueBrain> means I can play the game: DIE PHP DIE DIE DIE
15:12:16  <TrueBrain> I like that game
15:12:39  <Wolf01> Yeah after 2 years it's time to let it die
15:12:42  <Wolf01> *25
15:13:45  <TrueBrain> most the PHP .. 4. ... what version was running on that VM ..
15:14:35  <TrueBrain> owh, shocking, PHP 5.4 is running there
15:14:37  <TrueBrain> that is not too bad
15:14:53  <TrueBrain> "(built: Feb 19 2015 18:54:29)" :)
15:16:17  <Wolf01> I would like to create some docker containers for development, but I don't even know where to start :D (also I'm really lazy)
15:16:38  <TrueBrain> start by looking into how others did it :)
15:16:42  <TrueBrain> depends on what you want to do ;)
15:28:56  <Wolf01> Meh, needs a restart... not going to do that today
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16:41:36  <TrueBrain> yo frosch123 !
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16:49:28  <frosch123> hoi
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17:02:07  <andythenorth_> might do a parameter for wagon colours
17:02:24  <andythenorth_> so that for predictable bad colours, they're replaced to tasteful ones
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17:04:01  <TrueBrain> I think I almost started a spamwar on GitHub ... bot was replying to itself :D
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17:10:32  <TrueBrain> (closing failed because DorpsGek has no permissions in my repo) <- well, at least the existing code still works .. did some minor tweaks
17:10:35  <TrueBrain> now adding the real functionality :)
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17:29:59  <TrueBrain> my mailbox is exploding with all this testing, lol
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17:49:00  <TrueBrain> right, I am about to make a Team for every translation .. let's see if that works :)
17:50:29  <TrueBrain> I always forget how many language OpenTTD natively supports .. its insane :P
17:55:41  <glx> including unfinished ?
17:58:42  <TrueBrain> yes
17:58:49  <TrueBrain> you have to be able to translate them after all :)
17:59:14  <TrueBrain> okay, it works :D
17:59:20  <TrueBrain> w00p
17:59:39  <TrueBrain> <- anyone wants to try?
18:01:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain updated pull request #2: Add: initial workflow to automate requested access for translators
18:03:17  <TrueBrain> mostly, is it n00b friendly
18:03:21  <TrueBrain> is the question :)
18:03:45  <frosch123> no, that's impossible
18:05:33  <TrueBrain> that is .. harsh
18:06:38  <_dp_> so... train racing, anyone? xD
18:06:43  <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ ford mode?
18:06:58  <TrueBrain> _dp_: you are crazy :)
18:07:10  <_dp_> xD
18:08:19  <_dp_> and it is live on citymania test2 server ;)
18:08:25  <andythenorth_> I have a Ford group in my current game supermop_Home
18:08:26  <TrueBrain> I created a new PAT for DorpsGek, btw (as a FYI)
18:08:30  <andythenorth_> it's Blue though :P
18:08:50  <supermop_Home> Subaru mode
18:09:06  <andythenorth_> hmm
18:09:21  <andythenorth_> how many company colours are there?
18:09:26  <andythenorth_> 16 I guess
18:09:29  <TrueBrain> so I assign "write" permissions to "team" changes, and it refuses saying I do not have enough permissions .. ugh ..
18:09:30  <supermop_Home> you have have it in any color you want, so long as its Blue Pearlescent
18:09:42  <TrueBrain> "You must be an organization owner or team maintainer to add a team membership."
18:09:52  <supermop_Home> or sage green with tan I guess
18:09:56  <TrueBrain> but I have "Read and write org and team membership, read and write org projects"
18:09:58  <TrueBrain> I hate RBACs :(
18:10:07  <andythenorth_> 'deep impact blue' supermop_Home :P
18:10:12  <andythenorth_> my Transit is blue
18:10:23  <supermop_Home> WR Blue Pearl
18:10:37  * andythenorth_ wonders about a livery-cycle byte for vehicles
18:10:46  <andythenorth_> which can be incremented using some kind of tools
18:10:56  <andythenorth_> or whatever people choose to write
18:10:59  <supermop_Home> might have been called WR Blue Mica when I had mine
18:11:06  <andythenorth_> could be extended with some kind of group rules or something
18:11:58  <supermop_Home> the 90s wrx color was different though
18:12:40  <supermop_Home> especially on UK market 22Bs
18:13:10  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I seem unable to give DorpsGek sufficient permissions to add people to Teams ... lol
18:14:21  <TrueBrain> seems he has to be an owner .. we are back to that again :(
18:14:28  <TrueBrain> or a maintainer in every Team .. but that is spammy
18:14:51  <frosch123> maintainer in team "translators" is not enough?
18:15:22  <TrueBrain> nope ..
18:15:25  <TrueBrain> first I tried :)
18:17:16  <TrueBrain> hihi, there is a "request to join" button on Team pages now :)
18:17:44  <TrueBrain> very hidden, ugh
18:18:14  <frosch123> "People with owner or team maintainer permissions can add organization members to teams. People with owner permissions can also invite non-members to join a team and the organization."
18:18:31  <TrueBrain> exactly :)
18:18:33  <frosch123> the problem is the "outside organisation" part
18:18:39  <TrueBrain> it is?
18:18:50  <TrueBrain> in what way?
18:19:11  <frosch123> as team maintainer you can only add people who are already part of the organisation
18:19:20  <TrueBrain> but even that not for child teams, as it turns out
18:19:32  <TrueBrain> as in, DorpsGek cannot invite anyone, and he is maintainer of Translators
18:19:40  <TrueBrain> so I guess DorpsGek needs to become owner again :(
18:20:00  <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ I think you can do things like recolor, so if some one picks pink, you could shift it to better shades of pink?
18:20:36  <andythenorth_> yes
18:21:10  <supermop_Home> "The S209 will be available in World Rally Blue Pearl with dark gray wheels (matte finish) and Crystal White Pearl with gold wheels (matte finish)."
18:21:22  <supermop_Home> i think they got that backwards
18:21:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I guess it makes sense that only owners can add members to an organisation
18:21:55  <TrueBrain> too bad there isn't a role between "Owner" and "Member"
18:22:11  <TrueBrain> as making DorpsGek an "Owner" is a really terrible idea
18:22:36  <TrueBrain> at least, without enabling 2FA
18:22:56  <TrueBrain> what we can do, enable 2FA on it, I use my hardware token for it, I give you a few recovery codes for it?
18:23:12  <TrueBrain> chances anyone else wants access to DorpsGek are very very low
18:27:38  <frosch123> wasn't there some method to generate personal access keys with specific permissions?
18:27:57  <TrueBrain> there is; PATs have minimal amount of permissions
18:29:43  <frosch123> "write:org" applies to the whole organisation also
18:30:01  <frosch123> so no improvement
18:30:46  <TrueBrain> it cannot delete stuff with that permission, can it?
18:31:05  <frosch123> no, but it can kick everyone from the organisation :)
18:31:40  <TrueBrain> via a PAT?
18:31:51  <TrueBrain> I don't understand what GitHub did with their permission system, I really do not :(
18:32:08  <frosch123> "write:org 	Read and write access to organization membership, organization projects, and team membership."
18:32:33  <frosch123> i read that as: you can add and remove anyone to/from the organisation with any role
18:32:43  <frosch123> so you can kick everyone and add kim as only owner
18:33:42  <TrueBrain> I can indeed just remove you
18:33:46  <TrueBrain> why did they do it like this :(
18:40:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: guess we are back to the question: how much effort is automation vs "lets just add the people by hand" :)
18:40:58  <TrueBrain> anyway, protecting the PAT is relative easy; it is only shown once, only stored once, and nowhere else
18:41:15  <TrueBrain> so the PAT should be safe .. if GitHub Actions doesn't screw up (which is unlikely)
18:42:45  <frosch123> i only have access to ottd and coop organisation. so we can use a PAT for my account
18:43:09  <TrueBrain> I enabled 2FA on DorpsGek, so we can use him too
18:43:17  <frosch123> my account is unlikely to get involved with anything else :)
18:43:43  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek is ONLY used by OpenTTD ..not sure what you are getting at here?
18:43:56  <frosch123> ok, 2fa for dorpsgek is also okay
18:44:05  <frosch123> it's your second account then :)
18:44:23  <TrueBrain> I just need a smart way to get recovery codes to you :)
18:59:13  <TrueBrain> meh frosch123 , I still don't like what GitHub did here. But okay :)
19:01:52  <planetmaker> What did they do? I saw that they asked to download recovery codes in an e-mail to info@
19:02:46  <TrueBrain> they didn't do anything, other than having a crappy RBAC :)
19:03:03  <planetmaker> :P k
19:03:26  <TrueBrain> so DorpsGek is now owner, with 2FA enabled
19:04:03  <TrueBrain> and I locked out my yubikey, because I can't remember my password :(
19:05:37  <TrueBrain> okay, frosch123 , this now all works. How far was your eints patch? :D :D :)
19:05:42  <TrueBrain> (and of course someone needs to review my PR)
19:08:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain updated pull request #2: Add: initial workflow to automate requested access for translators
19:09:06  <TrueBrain> made a note in the approval message that you will have to accept the membership invitation
19:09:24  <TrueBrain> I had a guineapig testing it out :)
19:09:44  <TrueBrain> so translators really become part of the organisation .. yeah, I get why it needs these rights .. still annoying :P
19:18:10  *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd
19:19:01  <TrueBrain> frosch123: something completely different, I have been wondering what to do with dev-spaces
19:19:21  <TrueBrain> from what I can tell, most things can be moved to gists / GitHub (as in, under your own user)
19:19:35  <TrueBrain> am I missing anything saying that?
19:19:47  *** mindlesstux6662 has quit IRC
19:20:22  <frosch123> no, it's also my intention to move my stuff, and get the gh console app to use it for paste and stuff
19:21:29  <frosch123> 90% of it are temporary pastes :)
19:21:34  <TrueBrain> yeah
19:21:42  <frosch123> well, and images
19:22:15  <TrueBrain> so I guess the question extends to glx and planetmaker, as you know you two (have) use(d) the dev-space too: is there anything that cannot be moved to gist / github?
19:22:17  <frosch123> anyway, eints is basically ready to run with gh teams on the current vm
19:22:18  <andythenorth_> and the future newgrf spec :P
19:22:27  <TrueBrain> frosch123: really? Cool :D
19:22:29  <frosch123> so we can retire the dreaded translation manager
19:22:35  <TrueBrain> I remember you had a patch, but was not sure you merged that already
19:22:38  <frosch123> however, eints is not yet cloud ready
19:22:45  <frosch123> that's still a lot of work
19:22:47  <TrueBrain> cloud is the next step; one thing at the time :)
19:22:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you reviewed the pr, but i did not amend it, iirc
19:23:21  <TrueBrain> ah; well, that should be easy I guess :)
19:23:31  <TrueBrain> I remember I was being picky; in the end, it doesn't really matter ofc
19:24:01  <frosch123> you mostly complanied that it uses albert-style, and not black-style :)
19:24:12  <TrueBrain> so that is not something you have to fix ;)
19:24:54  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I think Rb has a cronjob on the devspace :P
19:25:11  <frosch123> what does it do? delete spam?
19:25:29  <TrueBrain> has been running since 2011 :P
19:25:41  <TrueBrain> no, it generates a new HTML file every night
19:25:47  <TrueBrain> but it is using an old database :D
19:25:57  <frosch123> newgrf ids from masterserver?
19:26:18  <TrueBrain> owh, it pulls it from the MSU indeed
19:26:19  <TrueBrain> yes
19:26:37  <TrueBrain> how did you guess :P
19:27:02  <TrueBrain> the list is rather long
19:27:30  <frosch123> TrueBrain: <- it's in my bookmark
19:27:36  <TrueBrain> yeah
19:27:42  <frosch123> maybe even in the wiki for "how to find a unique grfid"
19:27:59  <TrueBrain> do we still need that?
19:28:23  <frosch123> oh, and someone complained that their unreleased grf was listed, so we had to link them the forum post where they had posted a preview
19:28:38  <TrueBrain> in 2020, only frosch123, glx, and planetmaker used dev-space (for new files). So that is a good sign. Well, and myself, DorpsGek is running there :)
19:28:45  <TrueBrain> hahahaha :D
19:28:46  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i do not read forums, i only see bananas content, so no idea
19:29:14  <glx> oh I sent a file in 2020 ?
19:29:23  <glx> ah yes maybe, can't remember
19:29:30  <TrueBrain> SimpleAI, it seems :)
19:29:49  <glx> ah right, for someone with a crappy ISP
19:30:18  <TrueBrain> anyway, can we set a date to retire dev-space? Not sure how much time you need frosch123 to clean it out?
19:30:34  <TrueBrain> seems I am the heaviest user ... not sure where to move DorpsGek to :)
19:30:37  <TrueBrain> do we still need it ..
19:30:47  <glx> I just need to check what I have on it :)
19:31:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: dorpsgek is needed for @kick and @topic
19:31:38  <TrueBrain> fair point
19:31:44  <TrueBrain> so I have to figure that out :)
19:31:54  <TrueBrain> can we say .. we disable dev-spaces at the end of next month or something?
19:31:56  <glx> ahah I have a backup of my opendune dev space on it it seems
19:32:05  <frosch123> also, irc logs are a problem
19:32:17  <TrueBrain> "problem", what do you mean?
19:32:31  <frosch123> they are on coop, so often dead
19:32:37  <TrueBrain> ah
19:32:39  <TrueBrain> I can fix that too
19:32:44  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek has ... a long long history of logs :P
19:32:48  <TrueBrain> just nothing ever indexed it
19:33:37  <TrueBrain> AWS ECS container with EFS .. that might just work
19:33:39  <frosch123> also, coops' log viewer is written in php without proper string escaping, so when samu posts code with special characters, he often does code injection, which usually results in the logs no longer rendering
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19:33:53  <TrueBrain> haha, "oops"
19:34:09  <TrueBrain> how "live" do logs need to be??
19:34:14  <TrueBrain> too many questionmarks there
19:34:22  <TrueBrain> can it be delayed with, say, 10 minutes?
19:34:35  <glx> webster is delayed IIRC
19:34:54  <frosch123> 10 minutes should be no problem
19:34:59  <TrueBrain> 60?
19:35:04  <TrueBrain> (trying to get a feeling for how it is used)
19:35:06  <frosch123> how often do you get an answer that fast :p
19:35:32  <andythenorth_> I use it to check my irc client isn't posting lines into a void :P
19:35:36  <frosch123> i use it before joining, because people tend to immediately ask something
19:35:37  <andythenorth_> occasionally it does
19:35:56  <TrueBrain> okay, so near-live is prefered
19:35:58  <andythenorth_> ish
19:36:01  <TrueBrain> fine, that should be possible
19:36:14  <andythenorth_> tbh, using current logs to check my client is working
19:36:21  <andythenorth_> is like going to see with two compasses
19:36:23  <andythenorth_> don't do it
19:36:25  <nielsm> comedy option:
19:36:26  <andythenorth_> take 1 or 3
19:36:27  <TrueBrain> I guess: migrate supybot to a newer version, make sure Seen database is carried over, and allow logs to be rendered in HTML ..
19:36:40  <andythenorth_> I had 2 thermometers on my fish tank for a while
19:36:44  <andythenorth_> lot of fish got dead
19:37:04  <TrueBrain> nielsm: what are we looking at there? (NOT EVEN A README?! :D)
19:37:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: supybot to a newer version? :p i think we had the second last
19:37:29  <andythenorth_> not even license.txt
19:37:30  <andythenorth_> invalid
19:37:31  <nielsm> actually yeah you're looking for a log viewer not a log writer
19:37:33  <andythenorth_> oof
19:37:39  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it has a new name :)
19:37:44  <glx> andythenorth_: 2 dead thermometers ?
19:37:57  <andythenorth_> disagreed by 10 degrees
19:37:58  <TrueBrain> nielsm: it was an honest question, as I couldn't really tell what this was :)
19:38:04  <andythenorth_> but I thought I knew which one was wong
19:38:05  <andythenorth_> wrong *
19:38:12  <glx> oups
19:38:17  <glx> poor fish
19:38:19  <nielsm> but it's just a most basic bot I wrote for another website, it really pairs with a qwebirc client modified so the client can show joining users the recent chat log
19:38:33  <TrueBrain> ah :)
19:38:37  <andythenorth_> at least they weren't cold fish
19:39:47  <TrueBrain> <-the "updated" version of supybot
19:39:51  <nielsm> and one of the requirements was to _not_ retain data, so it writes the log to a redis instance with a lifetime of default 6 hours on each message
19:40:24  <TrueBrain> smart :)
19:40:36  <nielsm> and only users in the channel must be able to read the history (no "spying") so you have to join the channel and send a message to the bot to get a valid link, or have a valid session with the qwebirc instance
19:40:44  <TrueBrain> I wanted to use redis for the masterserver, as it makes things easier .. but it costs 15 dollar a month to run redis on AWS :P
19:46:52  <TrueBrain> okay, updated the trello .. finished 2 cards, and 2 new cards ..
19:47:54  <TrueBrain> the three big ones left are: wiki, eints and MSU
19:48:03  <TrueBrain> eints will be fine, one way or the other
19:48:09  <TrueBrain> MSU is just a lot of work .. but nothing difficult
19:48:12  <TrueBrain> wiki .. ugh .. wiki
19:48:49  <frosch123> wiki seems to converge into running a custom gollum in a docker container, with gh repo
19:49:12  <TrueBrain> hmm .. interesting
19:49:28  <TrueBrain> really curious how that looks like frosch123  :D
19:49:33  <frosch123> actually, is 2GB diskspace for the git-working copy in the docker a problem?
19:49:39  <TrueBrain> I was double-checking if mediawiki can run in AWS, and they have this now:
19:49:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no
19:49:51  <TrueBrain> in general, diskspace is not a problem
19:50:18  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that's only "images", right?
19:50:26  <frosch123> so, not the database
19:50:29  <TrueBrain> and the database needs to go to RDS in that case
19:50:32  <TrueBrain> which is not cheap
19:51:12  <frosch123> anyway, i ruled out github wiki (which uses gollum), since it cannot handle images
19:51:28  <TrueBrain> yeah, I agree there .. still very weird
19:51:28  <frosch123> but if we run our own gollum instance, we can enable/add that just fine
19:51:58  <TrueBrain> that should be fine
19:51:59  <frosch123> oh yeah, and i assume everyone is fine with dropping all "discussion" pages :p
19:52:07  <TrueBrain> \o/ \o/
19:52:29  <TrueBrain> and it stores everything in git? Git LFS for images?
19:53:00  <frosch123> images go into a directory "uploads", and it does a regular git commit
19:53:04  <frosch123> i have no idea how LFS works
19:53:22  <frosch123> but there are hardly revisions for images
19:53:35  <frosch123> and it needs the latest anyway, so i guess there is no advantage
19:54:21  <TrueBrain> if I remember correctly, GitHub doesn't like big repositories with images
19:54:25  <TrueBrain> and suggest to use LFS in those cases
19:54:35  <TrueBrain> I believe you mark a full folder for LFS, but .. never worked with it myself
19:55:40  <TrueBrain> LFS is 1 GB on GitHub, the free part
19:56:09  <frosch123> currently the .git dir is 920 MB, and the HEAD images in the working copy are 428 MB
19:56:30  <TrueBrain> also 1 GB of bandwidth restriction .. that will be an issue
19:56:34  <glx> ok checked my dev space, made a backup just in case, but nothing important left
19:56:42  <TrueBrain> ty glx :)
19:56:44  <TrueBrain> 1 down, 3 to go :)
19:57:28  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what bandwidth restriction? what is limited where?
19:57:48  <TrueBrain>
19:58:51  <TrueBrain> if we don't have revisions for images, it becomes easier btw :)
19:59:26  <TrueBrain> "Additional storage and bandwidth is offered in a single data pack. One data pack costs  per month, and provides a monthly quota of 50 GB for bandwidth and 50 GB for storage."
19:59:28  <TrueBrain> or we do that :P
20:00:05  <frosch123> regular repositories have limits for filesize and pushsize?
20:00:09  <TrueBrain> but we can also make a post-commit hook, that sends the "uploads" folder to an S3 bucket
20:00:31  <frosch123> largest image is 2.8 MB
20:00:45  <TrueBrain> GitHub doesn't have a set limit on normal repositories, as far as I know
20:00:47  <TrueBrain> just .. FUP
20:01:12  <frosch123>
20:02:18  <frosch123> technically we do not reach those limits
20:02:45  <TrueBrain> the checkout is only going to take for ever :P
20:02:49  <TrueBrain> lets see how it goes
20:02:54  <TrueBrain> enough alternatives, so I am not worried
20:03:07  <frosch123> TrueBrain: if the upload folder is not in git, it is no longer versioned. or do you mean S3 only for caching?
20:03:25  <TrueBrain> you mention that most of the images only have 1 revision anyway, right?
20:03:34  <TrueBrain> so we can store them in S3 in that case
20:03:41  <frosch123> yes, but i would like some "restore vandalism" option
20:03:41  <TrueBrain> instead of git
20:03:53  <TrueBrain> yeah, it would require "do not allow to overwrite"
20:04:03  <TrueBrain> can be done in two ways .. either by making gollum not allow that
20:04:09  <TrueBrain> or by doing something smart on the S3
20:04:17  <frosch123> it's the default in gollum, i planned to remove that :p
20:04:20  <TrueBrain> which can either be enable backups on S3, or make a new folder for images that already exist
20:04:46  <TrueBrain> it is not a bad default :)
20:05:13  <TrueBrain> but okay, lets first see if gollum works
20:05:20  <TrueBrain> and if everyone agrees it being the way forward :)
20:05:28  <frosch123> but i would like to avoid people doing "my screenshot v1", "my screenshot v2"
20:05:57  <TrueBrain> pretty sure that happens anyway :P :D
20:07:37  <frosch123> 98k revisions currently, though that will go down if i exclude talk pages and stuff
20:07:46  <TrueBrain> :o
20:07:46  <TrueBrain> lol
20:07:57  <frosch123> also, i learned that there was a tikiwiki on ottd before?
20:08:05  <milek7> maybe I do something wrong
20:08:08  <milek7> but I always had bad experience with LFS
20:08:22  <milek7> honestly, for big files I prefer svn than git lfs
20:08:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I can only remember mediawiki
20:08:56  <frosch123> milek7: as long as you do not prefer perforce
20:09:11  <TrueBrain> frosch123: there used to be a wiki on tt-forums?
20:09:20  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there still is
20:09:30  <TrueBrain> wasnt that tikiwiki?
20:09:32  <frosch123>
20:09:39  <frosch123> TrueBrain: was tikiwki
20:09:49  <TrueBrain> we did have trac once
20:09:52  <TrueBrain> but never for wiki
20:11:14  <orudge> Yes, the TTDPatch wiki was converted to MediaWiki and merged into TT-Wiki
20:11:22  <orudge> the old Locomotion wiki that was on my site (originally Steve's site) was also merged in
20:11:53  <TrueBrain> its an orudge ! :D
20:11:59  <orudge> Could do the same with OpenTTD if desired I guess (or host it on the TT-Forums servers at least, in its current form), if that's easier than migrating it to AWS or whatever :D
20:12:02  <TrueBrain> now I have you here: would you mind enabling 2FA on GitHub? :D
20:12:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: <- that's all i know
20:12:25  <orudge> TrueBrain: on my own account, you mean?
20:12:34  <TrueBrain> orudge: the account that is joined in the OpenTTD organisation, yes
20:13:06  <orudge> oh hey, I've apparently contributed towards the "Arctic Code Vault", nice
20:13:07  <TrueBrain> frosch123: sounds DV was confused :P
20:13:33  <TrueBrain> but, in all honesty, OpenTTD was scattered in 2004
20:13:39  <TrueBrain> with everyone doing all kinds of things
20:14:03  <TrueBrain> took a while before I and MiHaMiX got everything together (not in a single place, but at least in view what there was and who had what where :P)
20:14:16  <TrueBrain> so it wouldn't surprise me :)
20:14:55  <orudge> TrueBrain: 2fa enabled
20:15:00  <TrueBrain> <3 orudge
20:15:28  <TrueBrain> means that now everyone with write access to OpenTTD has 2FA enabled :)
20:15:53  <TrueBrain> hopefully that means we don't fall prey to the "sneaked in a commit" other projects are currently having :)
20:15:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: orudge is no owner
20:16:01  <TrueBrain> no, but he has push rights :)
20:16:21  <frosch123> well, if you count website and nml, there are more people then
20:16:36  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
20:16:40  <TrueBrain> yeah, I know; but having the game itself behind 2FA is kinda nice :)
20:17:26  <TrueBrain> protect your most important assets first, work from there :)
20:17:45  <TrueBrain> you have the concept of "outside collaborators" on GitHub .. but you first need to make them member, part of your org
20:17:50  <TrueBrain> before you can make them "outside"
20:17:54  <TrueBrain> bit wonky if you ask me
20:18:09  <TrueBrain> but outside collabs, can do only what the teams they are in allows them to
20:18:10  <TrueBrain> which is nice
20:19:29  <TrueBrain> now I am curious about tikiwiki .. it does ring a faint bell ..
20:19:41  <TrueBrain> do I have a backup with freenode logs somewhere ..
20:23:08  <frosch123> maybe ottd used the ttdp wiki intiially? :p
20:23:33  <frosch123> anyway, there are multiple commits with that same commit message on that day
20:24:53  <orudge> Looks like there was a wiki referenced here:
20:25:25  <frosch123> that's indeed a tikiwki
20:25:49  <orudge> Looks like never got a hold of it though
20:26:27  <frosch123> well, it had 5 months
20:26:31  <frosch123> at most
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20:27:35  <TrueBrain> I remember somewhere vaguely that DV was testing stuff
20:29:11  <frosch123> i like that the roadmap on the wiki was "out of date" in august 2004 :)
20:31:13  <frosch123> pff, already the oldest wiki pages contained useless stuff like bridge speed limits
20:37:30  <frosch123> <- found it
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20:39:12  <frosch123> hmm, git log is really slow with 98k commits. i wonder whether that renders gollum unusable
20:39:59  <frosch123> maybe i should put the real data into the test docker
20:40:17  <LordAro> TrueBrain: alternative wiki thought - could use dokuwiki - no database, everything is flat files
20:40:34  <frosch123> yes, dokuwiki is the next best after gollum
20:40:57  <frosch123> but i think it cannot render mediawiki out of the box, so probably no templates either
20:41:11  <frosch123> so, migration is kind of impossible :p
20:41:51  <LordAro> well as people keep saying, everything on the wiki is out of date or not useful, so maybe starting from scratch isn't a terrible thing?
20:42:13  <LordAro> if nothing else, the way translations are done on the wiki currently is terrible and should be redone
20:42:32  <frosch123> i can convert the translations via a script just fine
20:42:54  <frosch123> that's at the end of my list though :p
20:43:07  <LordAro> fair enough :p
20:43:50  <frosch123> also, if the data is in git, mass edits are easier in geenral
20:44:20  <frosch123> did i mention that i first tried pywikibot to extract the wikidata, but found it is easier to make the api requests myself? :p
20:45:01  <frosch123> pywikibot is written by windows people in python2. it's insane in what ways it can break
20:45:26  <frosch123> when printing to console, it uses utf-8, but when directing output to file, it switches  to latin-1
20:45:51  <glx> well python2+windows, the best way to break somewhere
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