Log for #openttd on 8th September 2020:
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09:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> here we go again?
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10:11:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro approved pull request #2: Add: initial workflow to automate requested access for translators
10:11:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: new feature, livery change when passing under a bridge
10:25:59  <andythenorth> somebody oopsed
10:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of oops?
10:54:21  <andythenorth> looks like they got routed with a high-roof freight car under a low-roof bridge
10:55:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oops
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16:39:01  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I have a lot of US-based Horse plans :D
16:39:08  <andythenorth> take my fake roster, voxelise it :P
16:39:30  <Timberwolf> Heh.
16:39:48  <Timberwolf> If I build enough trains I'll have enough data to build an AI model for it, right?
16:40:02  <andythenorth> generative trains have been talked about
16:40:10  <andythenorth> there are only so many components and patterns
16:40:43  <andythenorth> I did make a lorry/truck generator for an RV set called BANDIT, but I deleted it in a hissy fit
16:41:10  <andythenorth> it took blocks of pixels and composited them in different ways
16:41:11  <Timberwolf> I did have a go with creating something along those lines years ago (LocoGrammar, which I don't think I ever released) but it ended up being more time than just making models the dumb way.
16:41:18  <andythenorth> +1
16:41:29  <andythenorth> Horse composites vehicle chassis, roofs, lights etc
16:41:38  <andythenorth> but they're all quite large components
16:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the minimum number of input trains for an AI to make reasonable guesses? 1 million? 100 million?
16:49:09  <Timberwolf> I wonder what results you'd get using an adversarial technique with one AI generating voxel objects and the other reversing output from GoRender.
16:49:28  <Timberwolf> Would probably only work for things produced using that workflow.
16:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i've no clue what any of those words mean
16:50:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause pretend you do :)
16:51:08  <andythenorth> or not
16:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> is that the opposite of bullshit bingo?
16:51:21  <Timberwolf> You have two competing AIs. One tries to turn pixels into voxel objects. The other is trying to create voxel objects that, when rendered using my toolchain, cause the first AI to give a result that is wrong.
16:51:42  <Timberwolf> It's one of the ways to overcome the "needing millions of data points" problem.
16:51:53  <Timberwolf> Just have an AI fight until no-one wins.
16:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, you mean like global thermal nuclear war?
16:54:55  <Timberwolf> local thermonuclear war :)
16:55:12  <andythenorth> yes, train newgrfs occupy the same part of the venn diagram as global thermonuclear war
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16:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> have you seen that movie?
16:59:58  <andythenorth> TrainWarGames?
17:00:09  <Timberwolf> Yes. Hacking movies started out reasonable and declined in accuracy ever since.
17:00:26  <Timberwolf> Vector of attack: social engineering!
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17:01:30  <LordAro> Timberwolf: Hack the Planet!
17:01:50  <LordAro> only the best hacking movies have a villain who rides around on a skateboard
17:02:22  <Timberwolf> Heh. The '90s ones started to blur into one for me.
17:02:37  <Timberwolf> Was that the one with the yellow 3.5" floppy disk?
17:02:55  <LordAro> i can't say i recall
17:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> are there more than 2 good "hacking" movies?
17:06:47  <andythenorth> are there any?
17:07:02  <andythenorth> was WarGames about Von Neumann?
17:07:09  <andythenorth> hacking was incidental
17:10:35  <LordAro> Hackers is the most 90s movie ever
17:11:02  <LordAro> and i refuse to accept that there is any valid criticism of it
17:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> was tron a hacking movie?
17:21:44  <andythenorth> haven't seen it
17:22:02  <andythenorth> office space is the definitive hacking movie
17:22:08  <andythenorth> whatever LordAro says
17:34:21  <Timberwolf> Damn, it feels good to be a gangster.
17:43:26  <TrueBrain> "[2020-09-08 19:43:15] dbg: [net] [udp] advertising on master server successful (IPv4)"
17:43:28  <TrueBrain> OWH YEAH :D
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18:16:47  <TrueBrain> okay, and the API is working and acting stable ... this is going well .. time to deploy the web
18:19:01  <frosch123> at this point noone is surprised that you are the one deploying THE WEB
18:20:34  <TrueBrain> "Internal Server Error"
18:20:35  <TrueBrain> boooooo
18:26:41  <TrueBrain>
18:26:43  <TrueBrain> look at that!
18:27:02  <TrueBrain> find the bugs pleaseeeeeee
18:27:43  <frosch123> some servers ban players named "player"
18:27:53  <frosch123> should the masterserver ban servers named "unnamed server"?
18:28:29  <TrueBrain> haha :)
18:29:04  <frosch123> ah, clicking on the version filters the list
18:29:13  <TrueBrain> :D
18:29:19  <TrueBrain> and it is a startswith filter
18:29:47  <frosch123> so versions cannot start with "all" :p
18:29:57  <TrueBrain> you reviewed the PR! :P
18:30:24  <TrueBrain> but so you can filter on all jgrpp servers
18:30:50  <frosch123> i did not read the html, for common reasons
18:30:52  <frosch123> :)
18:31:03  <TrueBrain> it is part of the Python! :P
18:31:15  <TrueBrain> but I will fix this, no worries ;)
18:33:38  <frosch123>  could give a more useful message
18:33:56  <frosch123> like "unknown server id"
18:34:50  <TrueBrain> I agree, sounds like a good-first-issue; will make an issue for that :)
18:36:37  <frosch123> oh... there is a duplicate "UTC"
18:36:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain opened issue #4: Unknown server-id gives odd error
18:36:52  <frosch123> only noticed that on the 5th read or so :p
18:38:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain opened pull request #5: Several bugs found while bringing this to production
18:40:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #4: Several bugs found while bringing this to production
18:41:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #4: Several bugs found while bringing this to production
18:41:21  <TrueBrain> fixed, and tnx for spotting :D
18:41:39  <TrueBrain> you can also announce your server if you like, but it is a bit of a pita .. on a different port, so you need to recompile OpenTTD
18:42:02  <TrueBrain> / 4978
18:42:23  <TrueBrain> did not test yet if UTF-8 works correctly .. can I do that easily ..
18:43:22  <frosch123> hmm... looks like about everything includes network/config.h
18:43:36  <TrueBrain> yeah ... :(
18:45:19  <TrueBrain> ugh, so many caches .. takes so long to see new server data on the web :P
18:45:22  <TrueBrain> (max 7 minutes)
18:45:29  <TrueBrain> utf-8 works :)
18:45:30  <TrueBrain> hihihihihi
18:47:39  <TrueBrain> soon I will deploy this to production, without switching the infra over to AWS .. that means people can test this with a simple "hosts" modification
18:47:46  <TrueBrain> might be easier to get some testing done
19:05:23  <frosch123> well... i wonder whether my router got a firmware update... and they removed the port forwarding option :/
19:15:14  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:15:15  <andythenorth> sorry
19:15:33  <andythenorth> I had an external security assessment that put all our staff home routers in scope
19:15:43  <andythenorth> and required them to not have open ports etc
19:16:09  * andythenorth schadenfreude
19:16:36  <andythenorth> hmm is Schadenfreude a uniquely English concept, and we've just stolen a German word?
19:17:22  <frosch123> no, there are about 1 million of yt videos of english people discovering that it is a german word
19:19:02  <andythenorth> we should go and laugh at their misfortune
19:19:07  <andythenorth> perhaps not
19:19:16  <frosch123> anyway, the manual still lists the option
19:19:20  <frosch123> it just does not exist :p
19:19:27  <andythenorth> security
19:19:38  <andythenorth> congrats, you can now get a certificate
19:20:34  <andythenorth> oh no wait, you have to get a VPN as well for the certificate
19:20:49  <andythenorth> and it has to terminate inside your network perimeter
19:20:53  * andythenorth is not quite over this yet
19:22:03  <andythenorth> the concept of a 'trusted network' could only be dreamed up by people who did not live in student accommodation with security-curious house mates
19:23:06  <andythenorth> or a university accommodation block with 300 people on a 10Mbit ethernet LAN to every room
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19:38:32  <Timberwolf> Hah. My cohort, the year before the university had run trials in one of the halls and gone, "we can run this by reserving 20% of our JANET link and doing aggressive QoS rules on ports we know things like Napster use"
19:39:10  <Timberwolf> In between trials and launch, Napster got banned and was replaced by the generation of services that did port-hopping to get around firewall blocks and QoS.
19:39:29  <Timberwolf> You could get Internet in halls if you woke up before 7, or 9 on a weekend.
19:39:54  <andythenorth> that stuff was just starting to happen when I was there, 1997 or so
19:40:33  <andythenorth> probably
19:40:55  <Timberwolf> One of the guys in my year group built a site that crawled every open SMB share it could find in its subnet.
19:41:23  <frosch123> how much did he make with blackmailing?
19:41:33  <andythenorth> lol, and I'm still answering procurement questions about 'security at the perimeter'
19:41:51  <andythenorth> and cable inspections
19:42:28  <Timberwolf> None that I recall :). I think his first naive implementation it routed the downloads via the server, which was of course a desktop PC in his... what do you call the individual unit of a hall of residence?
19:42:35  <Timberwolf> "flat" seems wrong somehow.
19:42:39  <Timberwolf> I guess it's just a room.
19:42:43  <andythenorth> we had flats, 6 rooms
19:42:49  <andythenorth> otherwise corridors
19:43:01  <_dp_> does anyone know how to ssh tunnel openttd server via remote host?
19:43:44  <TrueBrain> okay, automatic delisting after 20 minutes also works \o/ w00p
19:43:45  <andythenorth> with a VPN to an endpoint inside your trusted network perimeter
19:43:48  <TrueBrain> full chain test completed :)
19:44:39  <Timberwolf> We should create something like PCI/DSS for running OpenTTD servers.
19:44:55  <Timberwolf> With levels, so you need a different questionnaire depending on whether you use newgrfs and/or GS.
19:45:24  <andythenorth> and a certification scheme
19:45:37  <andythenorth> oh no wait, the pro move is to certify third party assessors
19:45:52  <andythenorth> charge them for their certification AND take a cut of what they charge
19:46:08  <andythenorth> then ideally get it adopted as a standard by government and privacy regulators
19:46:15  <andythenorth> or insurers
19:47:22  <andythenorth> PCI-DSS oof, that was 10 minutes of my day today, my future contains a questionnaire :(
19:48:09  <andythenorth> we have some card payment processing facility included with our accounting software, so we now have to do a PCI-DSS assessment
19:48:25  <frosch123> i forgot that 1.10.3 does not use cmake :)
19:48:58  <andythenorth> on a totally unrelated point, shall we release something?
19:49:02  <andythenorth> anything
19:49:30  <frosch123> release what? noise? gas?
19:49:31  <Timberwolf> It's not too bad, providing you can get a QSA who will let you provide sensible compensating controls for the requirements which are out of date. (I think they're still on 3, right?)
19:50:14  <andythenorth> I have NFI, I'm hoping the self-assessment questionnaire concludes 'move on, nothing to do'
19:50:49  <andythenorth> giving customers a 'pay here' link to Paypal / Strip / Xero / SAGE whatever it is shouldn't bring us into scope
19:50:51  <andythenorth> I hope
19:51:07  <Timberwolf> I had fewer problems with PCI itself than I did with bosses who would continually repeat, "but do we actually need to do this?" -> yes, it's in several of our supplier contracts.
19:51:32  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I have the inverse of that situation :P
19:51:35  <Timberwolf> That should be simple, it's either A or A-EP depending on how the direction to it works.
19:52:19  <Timberwolf> Both are pretty simple questionnaires IIRC, I think Stripe will even give you a prefilled version to just tick some boxes on.
19:52:41  <andythenorth> hurrah
19:52:43  * andythenorth reads
19:53:20  <Timberwolf> As long as card numbers never enter your network, it's not too bad. At worst a few pages of awkwardly worded "are you managing to avoid being complete idiots?"
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19:54:01  * andythenorth skim read the standard
19:54:12  <andythenorth> A-EP seems a lot of work for 0.6% of our revenue
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19:55:05  <andythenorth> PCI-A looks more promising
19:55:39  <frosch123> _dp_: is your questionas generic as "how to tunnel a port with ssh" or is there something ottd specific?
19:56:18  <Timberwolf> Yeah, I think the web ones which are all front-end you end up with A mostly? The wording is kind of awkward, and I've only ever done PCI at places which already had card data stored (or at least entering the network)
19:56:44  <Timberwolf> So my experience is mostly, "can we avoid D, can we avoid D, can we... no, we can't."
19:57:07  * andythenorth wonders if PCI-DSS can be avoided
19:57:40  * andythenorth looks which particular mafia is enforcing it
19:57:47  <Timberwolf> You can ignore it until you have a breach, providing no suppliers or clients ask for it :)
19:58:40  <_dp_> frosch123, I guess you can call it that, but it doesn't seem that simple as it's udp port
19:58:41  <andythenorth> ha ha the top result on google for UK is the company who fucked up our Cyber Essentials and gave us illegal requirements
19:58:42  <andythenorth> the lol
19:58:50  <_dp_> also tcp also needs tunneling iirc
19:58:54  <_dp_> so far I have
19:59:01  <Timberwolf> Although ISTR if you do have one, you immediately win the strictest possible audit or having Visa/MC refuse to process your payments.
19:59:03  <_dp_> ssh -v -L -R 3979:localhost:3979 -R 4978:localhost:4978 -R 3978:localhost:3978 -L 5978:localhost:5978 -N dp
19:59:24  <_dp_> and two netcat fifos but it's still not working and I've no idea why
20:00:46  <_dp_> ok, I found one more mistake xD
20:01:17  <_dp_> ah, no, nvm
20:01:36  * andythenorth wonders
20:01:50  <andythenorth> can't be that every coffee shape and bagel van has PCI-DSS
20:01:54  <andythenorth> for their card machine
20:02:00  <andythenorth> shape / shop s
20:02:35  <Timberwolf> I think you get away with that on the basis the onus is on the person who supplied you the machine.
20:03:02  <frosch123> _dp_: -R defaults to listing to localhost only, you may need to add a *: in front
20:04:13  <Timberwolf> At least that's how we got round it back when I worked for Priority Pass (someone had to). The individual lounges don't have to certify, but we as the supplier of the card reader did
20:05:40  <andythenorth> every day is a compliance day
20:06:31  <andythenorth> my life for the last 3 years has been 27001 (which I like) Cyber Essentials (which I hate) GDPR (which is lolz) WCAG 2.1 (fine), PECR (total absolute lolz) and now PCI-DSS
20:06:45  * andythenorth only wanted to make Flash games
20:06:47  <Timberwolf> (re Priority Pass, the "you can use your bank card as the access device" was simultaneously the best and worst idea they ever had)
20:06:59  <andythenorth> 'what could go wrong'
20:07:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: you you have a wasm flash emulator?
20:07:25  <andythenorth> sadly not
20:07:25  <Timberwolf> You could have several million customers and no clue who they actually are beyond "they have the right sort of Amex".
20:07:31  <Timberwolf> In theory. :p
20:08:05  <andythenorth> <- mostly the comments at the end
20:08:56  <andythenorth> " It makes me sad to think that the next generation of edgy teens wont have the outlet that we old heads had back then."
20:10:21  <frosch123> what? 114 days left? i thought it was already dead
20:10:24  <Timberwolf> Heh. In the Flash era that was what the people who'd grown up on BBC BASIC were saying :)
20:10:59  <andythenorth> I was about 22 when I started using Flash
20:11:06  <andythenorth> so I'd grown up on BBC BASIC :P
20:11:10  <andythenorth> night and day
20:11:30  <andythenorth> 10 MODE 2
20:11:39  <Timberwolf> GW-BASIC, QBASIC and then the DOS port of gpp (DJGPP) with Allegro for me.
20:12:34  <andythenorth> ho, are paypal merchants supposed to be PCI-DSS?
20:12:36  * andythenorth looks
20:12:58  <andythenorth> survey says: YES
20:13:08  <andythenorth> wow I hope someone told all the Etsy people
20:13:11  <andythenorth> etc
20:14:23  <Timberwolf> We had an Acorn Electron when I was tiny, although I was too young to do anything much with it.
20:14:36  <Timberwolf> Although I swear I was better at Escape From Moonbase Alpha when I was 5 than I am now.
20:16:30  <frosch123> unlikely. kids are terrible at games, they just don't notice
20:16:36  <andythenorth> oof, coop needs to do PCI-DSS
20:16:40  <andythenorth> good job devzone is down
20:17:03  <andythenorth> ah fuck, we have this
20:17:16  <andythenorth> FFS
20:17:50  <andythenorth> do we have a bank?
20:18:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: we only receive money. we do not collect them
20:19:17  <andythenorth> so owen is the merchant?
20:19:40  <andythenorth> I love these mafia schemes like PCI
20:19:41  <frosch123> yes, owen lives on a south sea island with all the ottd money
20:19:52  <andythenorth> it's not actually a law, but someone might be VERY MEAN TO US
20:20:32  <andythenorth> well maybe the new MicroProse can do a PCI-DSS for owen
20:20:39  <andythenorth> as a sponsorship
20:22:59  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: please stop making noise where no noise is needed ;) That you are neck deep in PCI shit .. don't drag OpenTTD into that void :P ktnx :)
20:24:26  <andythenorth> I was waiting for the sensible TrueBrain view
20:24:44  <andythenorth> I had to type quite a lot to get it, usually the service is quicker
20:25:11  <andythenorth> Truebrain-as-a-Service
20:32:22  <andythenorth> meh all these PCI controls are just 27002 so far
20:32:25  * andythenorth having a fun evening
20:32:53  <andythenorth> maybe I should do pixels
20:33:57  <frosch123> maybe try pcie x16. it's a lot faster
20:34:27  * andythenorth googles it
20:35:09  * andythenorth finds new things to do
20:35:18  <andythenorth> can I glue styrene-styrene with cyano?
20:35:29  <andythenorth> I don't have any plastic weld type stuff
20:36:51  <TrueBrain> okay, no more errors on sentry .. guess that is a good thing :)
20:37:24  <TrueBrain> now I just need to configure GitHub to auto-deploy etc .. but that is something for another day
20:37:40  <TrueBrain> owh, and ofc ask pretty please for someone to review my bugs-in-production PRs :D
20:40:35  <Timberwolf> I should do some pixels but I keep stalling at the idea of setting up varaction2s for station boundary fences.
20:40:50  <andythenorth> Timberwolf you are now approaching my level of newgrf complexity :D
20:40:56  <andythenorth> you got there fast, congrats
20:41:06  <Timberwolf> NML helped a lot :)
20:41:20  <andythenorth> first you make progress quick, then suddenly all projects and ideas seem related :D
20:41:49  <Timberwolf> Fences ought not to be that difficult, a few station sets have it (MB's newstats particularly), I'm just not very good with NFO.
20:42:34  <Timberwolf> I mostly cope by turning everything into a Go program, which I can happily fumble about in.
20:43:01  <andythenorth> I never really understood station nfo
20:44:15  <Timberwolf> It's not as well-trodden as the various vehicle options. Like with NML, I was able to build on a lot of stuff other people had done and documented, like Eddi's stuff with oversize vehicles and all the IRC chats about how sprite stacks worked.
20:45:00  <frosch123> you use irc logs as docs? :)
20:45:04  <Timberwolf> But for NFO there's the AuzStations tutorial, some of the forum threads around the CZTR team doing things, and then newgrf specs and hard work.
20:45:13  <Timberwolf> There's a website which aggregates them somewhere.
20:45:31  <Timberwolf> When you search some of the more obscure NML variables they often end up being the 2nd or 3rd result.
20:46:36  <frosch123> Timberwolf: <- there is industrial stations renewal
20:46:39  <Timberwolf> Sometimes they're very useful, especially if it's a discussion with someone whose thought process is similar to mine, and they ask the same questions in the same order.
20:48:12  <Timberwolf> Thanks :)
20:48:25  <frosch123> it even compiles nml-style lang files into nfo
20:50:58  <FLHerne> frosch123: Who doesn't?
20:51:21  <FLHerne> There's a *reason* I have several gigabytes of the thngs
20:51:42  <frosch123> gb of irclogs?
20:51:49  <FLHerne> Yes
20:51:55  <frosch123> it's just text, how do you get gb?
20:52:39  <FLHerne> I did try to write a tool to answer queries from them semi-automatically, but it didn't work :p
20:52:52  <FLHerne> Years of logs of many channels
20:52:54  <frosch123> 1037801  15139532 105137794 oftc_#openttd.log   <- ok, i understand :)
20:53:09  <FLHerne> They'd probably compress pretty well
20:53:50  <FLHerne> Actually, given current I/O vs CPU speed, it might even be faster to grep them compressed...
20:54:34  <frosch123> store them on an pcie ssd?
20:55:32  <FLHerne> I do, but it's a waste of space
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21:48:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour
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