Log for #openttd on 14th October 2020:
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06:32:48  <Afdal> My fail-safe high-speed track merges seem to be broken lately and I can't figure out why
06:32:55  <Afdal> Fix #7159: Waiting time at red one-way signals was too short
06:33:05  <Afdal> Is it possible that this is what caused this?
06:33:52  <Afdal> Animation for context:
06:35:05  <Afdal> This track construction used to ensure that merging trains never slowed down by "unlocking" the two-way entry signal just after a train enter the path to merge with the main track
06:35:37  <Afdal> it travels just enough tiles to clear the exit signal behind it
06:36:17  <Afdal> but now the two-way entry signal doesn't seem to be responding as fast as usual or something, and it's causing trains to slow down as they approach it
06:41:30  <Afdal> My glorious, beautiful high-speed networks are no longer high-speed ;_;
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06:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i've got no clue what's going on in the picture, but "wait time at red signal" is before the train gives up and reverses, that's got nothing to do with your problem
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06:59:13  <Afdal> hmmm
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06:59:40  <Afdal> isn't that animated for you?
07:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it is. which is part of the problem
07:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> likely what's happening is that you got into an "evil mode". if one train ever stops, then this will ripple down forever, until you stop all trains and get a fresh start
07:02:14  <Afdal> No that's definitely not what's happening here
07:02:36  <Afdal> That's a high-speed merge that normally only allows a train to enter the main track at full speed
07:03:07  <Afdal> but the merging train is being forced to brake very briefly in rare circumstances where it didn't
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07:05:00  <Afdal> I thought I was going crazy because those are the same old designs I've always used
07:05:11  <Afdal> but I think something about the game itself might have changed here
07:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like the train merging in from the stop slows down at the curve
07:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> s/stop/top/
07:06:58  <Afdal> yeah, and it shouldn't, because that little piece of track with an exit signal is designed to "unlock" the two-way entry signal in the event that another train shows up just as the merging train has entered the merge
07:07:38  <Afdal> in effect the train entering the merge clears the exit signal and ensures the two-way entry signal stays green
07:08:17  <Afdal> but it's like the entry signal is slower than it used to be now, just slow enough to read red very briefly as the merging train enters and causing it to brake
07:08:54  <Afdal> is there like
07:09:04  <Afdal> a bypass to make old game versions read new version saves
07:09:22  <Afdal> so I can test this out
07:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how this was meant to work, but the entry signal (which can't be seen in the picture) seems to be red, because the exit signal is blocked by the "tail" of the same train, and the other exit signal is red because another train approaches from the straight
07:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so the train from the side approaches a red signal, and makes an emergency stop 1 tile ahead of the red signal
07:11:33  <Afdal> bah this is really hard to convey with words without a diagram
07:11:55  <Afdal> check out the last entry here:
07:12:25  <Afdal>
07:12:27  <Afdal> that specifically
07:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not going to read that
07:13:09  <Afdal> >.>
07:13:29  <Afdal> there's an image so you don't have to <.<
07:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that image explains nothing
07:14:13  <Afdal> ~_~
07:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like one of those clickbait thumbnails on youtube
07:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> where they took a random image and put arrows and circles in to make it seem like something conspiracy-y is going on
07:15:03  <Afdal> lol
07:15:26  <Afdal> I guess the caption is important too
07:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's very possible the emergency brake thing has been changed since this picture was taken
07:16:38  <Afdal> Could it be that trains brake earlier before red signals than they used to?
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07:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how that ever meant to achieve the thing it says it tries to achieve
07:19:28  <Afdal> then I have failed at making that article readable -_-
07:19:52  <Afdal> maybe it's time for a rewrite
07:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem i've always had with the coop stuff. it's always written in a way that assumes it's the only correct way to play the game. "do this. no exlpanation, as all other things are wrong."
07:21:46  <Afdal> lol I don't even play on openttdcoop servers much :)
07:23:16  <Afdal> But isn't it nice when your trains don't need to brake?  Imagine a whole network where trains never have to brake ;y
07:23:29  <Afdal> whooosh
07:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i'd much rather have timetables to achieve that
07:24:29  * Afdal doesn't see how you can achieve that with timetables
07:24:33  <Afdal> Tell me more...
07:24:45  <Afdal> oh I guess with a low-density network timetables could do that
07:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the current way timetables are implemented you can manage that on a larger network
07:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried doing that on a maglev line i once built which had one single merge in it. (two lines A-B and A-C merging)
07:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and then i still had to halve the number of trains, or it would break occasionally
07:27:18  <Afdal> Yeah I like to -pack- my networks with trains.  A super dense network that never slows down is a beautiful thing
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07:41:36  <LordAro> but you also like to play with breakdowns turned on? you are a very unusual player :)
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07:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone here is an "unusual" player
07:42:44  <LordAro> true dat
07:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a list of 10 things that players "usually" do, every person you ever meet will violate at least one of those things
07:44:02  <Afdal> :3
08:03:04  <Afdal> well, I think I've figured it out
08:03:14  <Afdal> Looks like it might be a newGRF bug
08:03:52  <Afdal> this train set author might have made their trains ever so slightly larger than full-tile increments
08:04:07  <Afdal> because I can't reproduce this with base train engines
08:05:10  <Afdal> if the trains were a bit longer than they should be, that would be triggering this too
08:07:31  <LordAro> that would show up in the depot if that were the case
08:07:45  <LordAro> trains can only be made in 1/8 increments
08:08:33  <LordAro> so if they're 9/8, that would show up in the length indicator of the train
08:08:40  <Afdal> You sure?
08:08:49  <Afdal> there isn't a way to deceive that?
08:09:02  <LordAro> positive.
08:10:05  <Afdal> Well I don't know how else to explain this then
08:10:19  <Afdal> what about uh
08:10:46  <Afdal> if someone checked the train set trait for double-headed train
08:10:53  <Afdal> but didn't do something else they should have done
08:10:57  <Afdal> to correspond to that
08:11:10  <LordAro> i think you're grasping at nothing
08:11:31  <LordAro> reproduce this on a blank map, to eliminate all other variables
08:11:38  <LordAro> currently you're blaming everything except yourself
08:11:40  <Afdal> yeah I have
08:11:55  <Afdal> I made a test save and have been fiddling around with it
08:12:16  <Afdal> I'm comparing newgrf versions here and this seems to coincide with a change made to engine length
08:12:21  <Afdal> for this train set
08:13:48  <Afdal> but not length directly
08:14:11  <Afdal> the newgrf used to always display one-tile engines as two half-tile engines, and then some clever change was made to display multi-engine trains as still having a single engine, visually
08:14:21  <Afdal> This bug coincides with that change
08:15:26  <LordAro> that does sound a bit odd
08:16:07  <LordAro> i'm not sure if there's any "implicit" spacing between  engines/wagons
08:17:22  <Afdal> Is there a way to download older versions of newgrfs off Bananas
08:17:37  <Afdal> I have the luxury of still having tons of old versions of this particular train set on my hard drive
08:17:45  <Afdal> but there's a few I'm missing that would be useful to test
08:17:53  <LordAro> there is not
08:18:02  <Afdal> dang
08:18:06  <LordAro> (unless you have a scenario that requires it)
08:18:15  <LordAro> (but obviously you have to have that version to create the scenario in the first place)
08:21:58  <Afdal> -Maglev freight engines are no longer dual-headed and have an articulated wagon instead. Power halved to compensate.
08:22:10  <Afdal> This sounds like a change that could have inadvertently affected train length
08:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a newgrf change?
08:44:05  <Afdal> yeah
08:44:51  <Afdal> if I could just get some transitional versions for this newgrf I could really narrow down the cause of this
08:45:04  <Afdal> but that sounds like the most likely suspect
08:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you should just check out the repo and do some bisecting, then
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08:46:09  <TrueBrain> <- holy crap, that is a long title :)
08:46:35  <Afdal> repo?
08:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: the place where the source code lives and all changes are recorded
08:47:47  <Afdal> Oh for my newgrf?
08:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
08:47:53  <Afdal> I've been checkin that out
08:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so long as that repo is public, you can recreate all intermediate versions for your tests
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08:51:33  <Afdal> All right, I better get some sleep.  Whew, what a rabbit hole
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09:03:42  <TrueBrain> RecursionError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in comparison
09:03:42  <TrueBrain> oh-oh
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09:11:15  <Afdal> Yeah, it's almost like there's an extra invisible half tile of engine at the front of the train
09:11:32  <Afdal> that explains it perfectly
09:11:52  <Afdal> okay, sleep time
09:19:46  <TrueBrain> Poor frosch, I am spamming his mailbox :)
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09:19:57  <TrueBrain> okay, all en wiki pages parse now, as do fr, nl and pl. There are some things that needs patching up in the export, but overall, it seems this wikitextparser library does what it should be doing :)
09:20:09  <TrueBrain> for frosch to take a look at; hopefully he can fix those :)
09:20:13  <TrueBrain> but our wiki is very dirty :P
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10:23:57  <rptr_> hey. i compiled the game intending to work on it a bit, but only the nightgfx set is working. i also have the game installed with opengfx,but can't select it in the menu. what do?
10:39:52  <LordAro> rptr_: something weird to do with searchpaths probably. where is opengfx installed, and where is nightgfx installed?
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11:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: how did you install it?
11:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: if you downloaded a zip file, you need to unpack it
11:02:04  <Eddi|zuHause> if it is a tar file, you don't need to unpack it
11:10:00  <andythenorth> is it naptime?
11:10:11  <TrueBrain> depends; do you want lunch?
11:10:27  <andythenorth> oooo
11:10:31  <andythenorth> that is a good idea
11:10:35  * andythenorth hadn't thought of it
11:10:59  <TrueBrain> right, that is it, I am out of here. I had my one good idea, it is over now. Ciao all!
11:11:05  <andythenorth> happy day
11:11:11  <andythenorth> also my office is my kitchen
11:11:17  <andythenorth> so I don't have to go far
11:11:23  <TrueBrain> sounds like a terrible idea :P
11:18:11  <rptr_> i installed openttd + opengfx with apt-get. then i downloaded the source from git and also built that in another dir
11:18:21  <rptr_> so that i can play both the release and from master branch
11:18:56  <rptr_> (Eddi|zuHause)
11:19:03  <LordAro> i think apt-installed version has different search paths
11:19:24  <LordAro> so you'll probably need to download opengfx again (via ingame content should be fine)
11:19:28  <rptr_> ah ok. that's fine
11:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> probably /usr/share vs. /usr/local/share
11:19:43  <LordAro> search paths are often confusing
11:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably do some symlinking to help this, or building the source with various configure options that i can't explain to you
11:20:18  <rptr_> thanks. found
11:20:29  <rptr_> also the introduction screen is just an empty ocean :D
11:20:45  <rptr_> yeah i am sure there is an option for that. oh well
11:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's when it can't find the title savegame
11:33:04  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "configure options" what is this configure of which you speak? :p
11:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
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11:44:35  <andythenorth> hmm was it lunch?
11:44:37  * andythenorth forgot
11:45:33  <LordAro> too late
11:45:35  <LordAro> try again tomorrow
11:47:03  <TrueBrain> now go take a nap instead
11:49:39  <andythenorth> oof
11:49:59  <andythenorth> I think I'm actually going to spend 10 mins trying to address the weird hiring inequality in the tech industry
11:50:02  <andythenorth> but eh
11:51:11  <andythenorth> I'm also going to eat mac + cheese
11:51:17  <andythenorth> which peter used to tell me was impossible
11:51:24  <andythenorth> as it's a non-existent food type
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12:29:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which inequality? the one where fewer women are hired, or the one where fewer women apply?
12:29:58  <andythenorth> the one where employers can't find anyone to hire
12:30:05  <andythenorth> but people trying to get into the industry can't find any jobs
12:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oh that
12:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there's this "minimum 3 years work experience" thing, where nobody can get any work experience
12:35:11  <TrueBrain> and this is why every sane company should invest in "juniors" or "trainees"
12:35:24  <TrueBrain> I have seen the best people grow in a few months because they were given a chance
12:35:41  <TrueBrain> for some reason, those not in the industry are a lot more motivated :D
12:42:59  <andythenorth> we used to entirely run the business on new entrants
12:43:15  <andythenorth> but then we hit a point where we couldn't sustain the mess any more, it would have sunk us
12:43:26  <andythenorth> so we banned all trainee, placement, intern, graduate jobs
12:43:36  <andythenorth> now I might have to fix that
12:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there might be some middle ground :)
12:44:03  <andythenorth> it's so dull sorting out all their crap though
12:44:17  <TrueBrain> there has to be a balance, yes
12:44:25  <TrueBrain> not "all" nor "none"
12:44:33  <andythenorth> previously we've had to do stuff like find them a flat (we had one living in the office)
12:44:35  <TrueBrain> like 1/4th .. or something :P
12:44:39  <andythenorth> restructure their debts
12:44:50  <andythenorth> sort out their toxic house share situation
12:45:03  <andythenorth> help them with banking
12:45:05  <andythenorth> all that jazz
12:45:18  <andythenorth> it's very like parenting
12:45:36  <andythenorth> teach them to turn up when needed etc
12:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> can you teach me? :p
12:48:30  <andythenorth> as I am a bad teacher
12:48:37  <andythenorth> and you are probably a bad pupil
12:48:42  <andythenorth> I do not rate our chances highly
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13:10:58  <TrueBrain> meh; to render wiki pages you have to inspect all images on the page
13:11:01  <TrueBrain> that is expensive :P
13:11:27  <andythenorth> oof
13:19:24  <TrueBrain> owh, I think I can avoid it .. pfew :D
13:19:29  <TrueBrain> it is just mediawiki being weird
13:33:23  <Timberwolf> I find this really hard, even at the "entrant" level you're already fighting several years of inequality between "my parents bought me a computer and were happy with me messing about on it all day" vs. "I had to go to the library for computer access and my parents told me computers weren't for my gender/ethnicity/whatever"
13:34:36  * Timberwolf found with juniors you could get very far as long as you had at least one "team parent" they worked closely with.
13:35:25  <TrueBrain> coaching is key; but that holds for any position, even MDs :)
13:35:31  <andythenorth> pfff
13:35:38  <andythenorth> I don't have coaching
13:35:42  <TrueBrain> it shows :P
13:35:43  <andythenorth> I have shareholders :|
13:35:44  <TrueBrain> >:D
13:35:50  <TrueBrain> this was too easy :P
13:36:24  <TrueBrain> any job is 10 times harder if nobody is helping you out; but mind you, this doesn't have to be someone in the company
13:36:34  <andythenorth> I did have coaching once, we disagreed
13:36:53  <TrueBrain> coaching is a loaded term; someone with who you can talk shit over and can guide you to possible solutions :)
13:37:10  <Timberwolf> I think a big part is not trying to over-control it. We used to go with the approach of, "here is the problem, this is where you can go to find information, these are the people you can ask for help".
13:37:18  <TrueBrain> something a manager told me a few years ago .. what-ever you do, always make sure you can call someone up and say: help!
13:37:49  <andythenorth> I think we'd need to screen candidates for expectations
13:38:03  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: it is a difficult line to walk .. not enough helping, and they spend days of doing the complete wrong thing .. too much helping, and they never learn
13:38:03  <Timberwolf> That got much better results than the sort of "you are internship level A, you can work on these training exercises until you reach level B, where we will give you some simple pre-approved tasks and instructions how you should solve them"
13:38:06  <andythenorth> the reality of product engineering is that the time is spent like this:
13:38:09  <TrueBrain> it is like a toddler :)
13:38:12  <andythenorth> 30% making the build work
13:38:18  <andythenorth> 30% answering infosec questions
13:38:27  <andythenorth> 30% in essential meetings with the rest of the company
13:38:38  <andythenorth> 3% writing code
13:38:44  <TrueBrain> you want people that are 90% efficient? That ... is a hard goal to reach :P
13:39:01  <TrueBrain> how about: 20% talking shit with your coworkers? :D
13:39:14  <andythenorth> I normalised the scale
13:39:17  <TrueBrain> :D
13:39:38  <andythenorth> _some_ new entrants expect more like 100% writing glamorous code and being thanked for it by the whole company
13:39:49  <andythenorth> or maybe I just got burnt by the last couple I tried to train
13:40:00  <andythenorth> probably had another 20 that were humble and diligent
13:40:18  <Timberwolf> Heh. Definitely encountered some of those.
13:41:06  <TrueBrain> like it is pretty common in this world, a few think they are the best and everyone should bow to them .. just check Idols or whatever .. it is parents failing to teach children that failure is a normal part of life
13:41:30  <TrueBrain> "my child is the best" attitude
13:41:35  <TrueBrain> they can just fuck the right off :D
13:41:41  <TrueBrain> divas ..
13:41:51  <Timberwolf> "I've been in your broadband comparison company 3 weeks and I've decided I want to rewrite the entire product search"
13:42:36  <TrueBrain> in a Physics class, 3rd year university, a 1st year dropped by, to tell the teacher we got it wrong: gravity doesn't pull, it pushes us down
13:42:56  <TrueBrain> doing these kind of things ... rarely ... end well ... for you .....
13:43:17  <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D)
13:43:55  <Timberwolf> In that case we used to use "how do you deal with the problem that sometimes you can get two or three Sky addons for a much lower price by randomly adding Movies to the bundle, even if the customer doesn't want Movies?"
13:44:22  <Timberwolf> The people who should actually be trusted to rewrite search already have an answer :)
13:46:18  <Timberwolf> The ones who say, "that's not possible, you can't make it cheaper by adding things" you... find some way to redirect their energy.
13:46:38  <TrueBrain> :D
13:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D) <-- it kinda does both, hence you get an oblong shape from tidal forces
13:47:33  <TrueBrain> it is no force, so it cannot push nor pull :D
13:47:50  <TrueBrain> IT WAS A TRICK! :P
13:47:56  <Timberwolf> aand I realise I've just described the, "I've been playing your OpenTTD game three weeks and have the following pull request to deal with fundamental issues in the game's economic model" situation.
13:47:57  <andythenorth> isn't gravity just the effect of bending a linear surface?
13:48:03  * andythenorth did philosophy not physics
13:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: of course, gravity is a lie. it's all dipoles!
13:48:21  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is the more popular theory, yes, anyway, sort of, what-ever :P
13:48:37  <andythenorth> the weird thing is
13:48:37  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: yup :D We have plenty of those :P
13:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: more like "let's rewrite this in <random hype language>"
13:49:03  <andythenorth> if you try the thing where you draw a straight line on curved sheet of paper
13:49:03  <TrueBrain> gravity is our failure of only thinking in 3 dimensions :P
13:49:05  <andythenorth> it's mad
13:49:27  <andythenorth> best philosophy lecture we had
13:49:39  <andythenorth> large biscuit tin, pencil, tape, sheet of A4 paper
13:49:47  <TrueBrain> but given we have a 50/50 odd we live in a simulation, nothing is relevant anyway :P
13:49:53  <andythenorth> voila, gravity
13:50:01  <Timberwolf> I did drinking and trying to fix my piece of junk car.
13:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: now you're talking like someone arguing whether it's centrifugal force or centripetal force
13:50:11  <andythenorth> Timberwolf in that order?
13:50:51  <TrueBrain> I was wondering how you would drink a piece of junk car .. :D
13:50:52  <Timberwolf> No, although the latter may have worked better if I had.
13:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's a very narrow band of drinkage that would let you repair cars better
13:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's easy to overshoot
13:52:32  <Timberwolf> It used to like those comedy clown car sort of breakdowns, too.
13:53:01  <Timberwolf> Like one day I left the house and the first turn I came to the passenger door swung open.
13:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that means either you have a very weird door lock, or you take turns very weirdly
13:56:47  <andythenorth> hmm diagonal bridges anyone?
13:56:51  * andythenorth thinks not
13:56:55  <Timberwolf> It was a cold day, and what had happened was water had got into the mechanism and then iced up, so when you opened the door the spring that'd close the catch didn't move.
13:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is this where i come up with a better, more fexible, system, that is utterly unimplementable?
13:57:53  <andythenorth> that's an empirical question
13:58:50  <andythenorth> diagonal tunnels would be rather simpler
13:58:56  <andythenorth> no newgrf spec :P
13:59:29  <andythenorth> but they wouldn't work, because the entrances would span 2 tiles
13:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel heads have a newgrf spec
13:59:50  <andythenorth> that also then
14:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> which is mostly a "we don't implement any of that"
14:00:35  <andythenorth> maybe I should patch stations to have bigger catchment
14:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i did that once
14:00:50  <andythenorth> the diagonals is just one solution to constrained space
14:00:54  <andythenorth> there are others
14:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but cargodist and distant-join makes that mostly obsolete
14:03:54  <andythenorth> I need to fit another 7 train stations in here
14:04:30  * andythenorth does not play tidy coop style
14:07:55  <TrueBrain> I wonder how fast I hit the connection limit, but: <- it is far from perfect, but it is rendering fine and fast :)
14:08:29  <TrueBrain> well, "fast" .. images are not being served via nginx :P
14:09:27  <andythenorth> shall I stress test it :P
14:09:46  <andythenorth> nice logo btw
14:09:51  <andythenorth> we should make it bigger though
14:10:07  <glx> yeah it's very small :)
14:10:27  <TrueBrain> :D
14:10:47  <TrueBrain> mediawiki is full of crap, I can promise you :) How it handles images .. is one of them :P
14:11:08  <TrueBrain> <- very happy with that page
14:11:15  <TrueBrain> as Gollum failed to render that < 5s
14:11:38  <TrueBrain> <- and here images are looking fine :)
14:11:49  <TrueBrain> that NewGRF page has almost everything .. weird lists, images in weird ways, etc
14:11:54  <TrueBrain> is a nice page to test with
14:12:08  <TrueBrain> btw, tables don't work .. at all :P They just disappear :)
14:12:53  <TrueBrain> but, this is a nice proof-of-concept, that we can write our own wiki-frontend .. it is < 400 lines of code
14:14:00  <glx> missing image in the "warning" block on coding style page
14:14:29  <TrueBrain> yeah, the export is not 100%
14:14:39  <TrueBrain> frosch has a huge list of stuff to fix for me :)
14:14:41  <TrueBrain> :D
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14:14:55  <glx> and the commit hook section looks weird
14:15:07  <glx> other than that it's quite good
14:15:20  <TrueBrain> yeah, "space" at the start of the line should be <pre> blocks, but .. that is difficult
14:15:28  <TrueBrain> there are also missing <p>s everywhere
14:17:05  <TrueBrain> I like the gollum way of rendering a wiki much more than mediawiki
14:17:13  <TrueBrain> full-width is just annoying these days :P
14:17:24  <TrueBrain> how things have changed :D
14:18:22  <TrueBrain> "Authors of commits since 2004 are listed on GitHub None " <- I like these bugs .. "None"? :D
14:19:37  <TrueBrain> hmm, ngrok is bouncing via US .. lets see if I can fix that ..
14:20:10  <TrueBrain>
14:20:21  <TrueBrain> a lot faster :D
14:22:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8308: Feature: Add cargo filter support to vehicle list.
14:23:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements
14:24:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window.
14:25:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8307: Feature: Show group name as part of the default vehicle name.
14:26:54  <TrueBrain> the pages currently render 3 times faster than mediawiki .. lol
14:30:37  <TrueBrain> lol, and with 33MB of RAM
14:30:38  <TrueBrain> haha
14:30:39  <TrueBrain> funny
14:32:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window.
14:34:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] lpenap opened issue #54: [es_ES] Translator access request
14:34:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] lpenap opened issue #55: [es_MX] Translator access request
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15:15:52  <TrueBrain> our wiki is such a good test-case for this library :) The biggest nonsense ... and for 99% it does what it should do .. but it is very good at finding the 1% :D
15:17:41  <TrueBrain> how many lists just skip the first level,for example .. it is funny :)
15:19:36  <glx> mediawiki syntax is so weird, it's easy to write bad thing properly rendered in mediawiki itself, but wrong everywhere else
15:20:48  <glx> and it's probably worse if people used integrated wysiwyg
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17:11:52  <TrueBrain> sorry frosch123 for the massive issue :P It was easier that way :)
17:14:14  <frosch123> i think i'll create a list of what old page got mapped to which new page, and which got trashed.
17:14:38  <frosch123> but i don't think setting up redirects for all pages is useful
17:15:13  <frosch123> though if you have some crystal ball that tells the 10 most externally linked wiki pages :p
17:15:16  <TrueBrain> least we can do is a pass to rewrite all links
17:15:34  <TrueBrain> I for sure can give you a list of all entry points to the wiki :)
17:15:46  <TrueBrain> but I don't really care about keeping links intact for now
17:15:53  <TrueBrain> as long as the links on the pages work :)
17:17:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i hope truewiki will forbid creating pages which only differ in case
17:17:32  <glx> worst case you can redirect links to search page
17:17:34  <TrueBrain> hahahaha, I like that name :P
17:17:35  <frosch123> that's the biggest annoiance in migration
17:17:37  <TrueBrain> you silly goose :)
17:17:56  <TrueBrain> I was wondering if we shouldn't just lowercase files on disk, and ignore cases when the page is requested
17:18:13  <frosch123> then you have to store the real title inside the file
17:18:20  <TrueBrain> fair point
17:18:25  <TrueBrain> switching to Markdown you say? :P
17:18:30  <frosch123> funnily gollum had an option for that
17:18:34  <TrueBrain> but no, fixing all the links should not be difficult
17:18:47  <TrueBrain> it is just a massive calculation, but meh
17:19:43  <andythenorth> Markdown!
17:19:49  <TrueBrain> there are so many lists that are invalid lists; those that start at level=2
17:19:50  <andythenorth> not the weird wiki markup? :o
17:20:17  <frosch123>   <- that's by far the funniest case of "pages differ by case"
17:20:26  <frosch123> we have two manual of style!
17:20:44  <TrueBrain> and they are totally different ... lol
17:21:04  <TrueBrain> I like the first more :)
17:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and probably both were introduced by overly enthusiastic indivuals and never officially adopted by anyone?
17:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> *individuals
17:22:48  <frosch123> oh, they are actually different things...
17:22:57  <TrueBrain> I now have a list, that starts at level 1, and jumps to level 3 .. my code to fix these things fails .. hmm
17:22:59  <frosch123> the latter is about the wiki, the former about the game
17:30:41  <TrueBrain> right, solved that ..
17:31:01  <TrueBrain> okay, two "bugs" that I am unsure how to fix ... 1 is when people do <custom> in text .. mediawiki has a whitelist of tags it allows to go through HTML
17:31:06  <TrueBrain> the others it replaces with &lt; etc
17:31:15  <TrueBrain> and the other bug is <pre> block if a line starts with spaces
17:31:26  <TrueBrain> wikitextparser doesn't help with those cases .. hmmm
17:35:38  <TrueBrain> "Unknown WikiLink Main/en/Main talk:Hotkeys"
17:35:47  <TrueBrain> those Talk pages keep popping up :D
17:36:48  <frosch123> i excluded them from the migration by default :)
17:36:57  <TrueBrain> and rightfully
17:37:07  <TrueBrain> I also saw a lot of references to "Archive"
17:37:19  <TrueBrain> but we will flush these things out :)
17:37:47  <TrueBrain> Main:Hotkeys page broke a bit with export too, I see
17:38:39  <TrueBrain> euh, just "Hotkeys" :P
17:39:04  <TrueBrain> {{merge|Hidden features|discuss=Talk:Hotkeys|date=20 September 2018}}
17:39:07  <TrueBrain> like .. wuth?
17:41:38  <TrueBrain> ah, parsing failed because "Main/en/{{NAMESPACE}}"
17:41:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems with {{NAMESPACE}} you shouldn't prefix Main/en .. or just replace {{NAMESPACE}} with Main/en :P
17:42:45  <TrueBrain> I resolve NAMESPACE to Main, making the URL Main/en/Main :D
17:44:05  <TrueBrain> I am honestly not sure that prefixing with Main/en is a good idea btw
17:44:11  <TrueBrain> I guess it is needed to make Gollum happy?
17:44:23  <TrueBrain> but it is quiet a chore for authors to do that
17:44:51  <frosch123> "main" is only a placeholder, it will get worse :)
17:45:12  <TrueBrain> what ... are you planning? :)
17:45:18  <frosch123> anyway, when creating new pages in gollum, it suggested the "current directory" by default
17:45:48  <TrueBrain> yeah, so pages in Main/en/ don't need prefixing with it?
17:45:52  <TrueBrain> sounds good :)
17:48:18  <TrueBrain> ":;Step3: Add trees: place" <- pretty sure they did not intend to make that do what it does .. but it does look pretty
17:48:45  <TrueBrain> (it is a list starting at level 2, containing 2 items, "Step 3" and "Add treees: place ...")
17:49:07  <frosch123> but... step 3 is profit!
17:49:55  <TrueBrain> it heavily confuses wikitextparser :D
17:50:18  <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure that most of what mediawiki renders is due to PHP bugs
17:51:40  <TrueBrain> I do not want to create more bugs .. I already have a few weird ones open, which the author can hopefully fix :D
17:51:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:51:56  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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17:52:57  <frosch123> most of the slovak translation changes are adding ^ ´ to letters
17:53:08  <frosch123> i guess previous translators didn't bother :)
17:53:15  <TrueBrain> :D
17:54:44  <TrueBrain> owh, the ":;Step3: bla" is by specs .. well, sort of
17:54:51  <TrueBrain> it should be: ";Step3: bla"
17:54:53  <TrueBrain> but okay, details
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18:32:56  <TrueBrain> okay, this definition list really needs a fix in wikitextparser .. it seems the regex is mixing up the order .. but I do not really understand :D
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19:01:45  <TrueBrain>
19:01:49  <TrueBrain> HA! They render as they should :D
19:02:37  <TrueBrain> for comparing
19:02:53  <TrueBrain> and yes, the image is still the wrong width, I know :D
19:04:01  <frosch123> where is that magnifier icon from?
19:04:13  <TrueBrain> utf-8
19:04:59  <frosch123> table at the bottom is centered in original, thought left looks better
19:05:42  <TrueBrain> yeah, table support is not fully there
19:05:51  <frosch123> ah, you render all links in blue, even dead ones
19:07:05  <TrueBrain> yeah; it currently only tells me on console the link is dead
19:07:48  <TrueBrain> I miss a lot of stuff currently :)
19:07:53  <TrueBrain> images too
19:07:57  <TrueBrain> but we will figure that out :)
19:08:12  <TrueBrain> in the issue I created are the most important things I found .. the rest are more breadcrumbs :)
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19:08:19  * andythenorth figuring out training programmes
19:08:30  <andythenorth> nobody ever taught me how to make tech
19:08:37  <andythenorth> so I have NFI how to teach others
19:08:41  <andythenorth> but then again...
19:08:47  <TrueBrain> only those we can't, teach :P
19:08:51  <andythenorth> oof
19:08:53  <frosch123> how many? employees or customers?
19:09:02  <andythenorth> paid placement employees
19:09:06  <andythenorth> new entrants to industry
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19:09:36  <andythenorth> I always find this hard, because I learnt everything for myself
19:09:54  <andythenorth> by falling on my face repeatedly
19:10:44  <andythenorth> 'lol there is a debugger in Flash, but I have written my own already'
19:10:47  <andythenorth> oops
19:10:52  <andythenorth> repeat for 10 years
19:14:47  <frosch123> well, to give the most general recommendation: external trainings with trainees from multiple companies are a waste of time / too unspecific. if you can afford it, have in-house training where trainees know about what the other trainees do
19:15:04  <frosch123> but that does not work for fresh employees
19:16:51  <frosch123> well, i guess it depends whether you want people to learn how to do stuff at your place, or whether you want someone to learn how other companies do stuff
19:19:59  <TrueBrain> <- frosch123 : table fixed :)
19:20:14  <TrueBrain> still looks so much better than mediawiki imo :)
19:21:31  <frosch123> i can't say the C word, andy is here :)
19:21:55  <TrueBrain> a hover is not working, and I do not understand why not .. and I don't dare to ask :P
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19:25:56  <frosch123> <- wow, i don't think there is a single unix-specific problem on that page
19:26:02  <TrueBrain> haha :D
19:26:17  <TrueBrain> pretty sure nobody tried UNIX :P
19:29:19  <Heiki> “The game could be slow as you could have a Virus Checker, a firewall, and much other software running in the background.” those nasty UNIX Virus Checkers
19:32:24  <TrueBrain> okay, the fact that the thumbs scale poorly is something that should be fixed in CSS, I just don't know how :)
19:32:31  <TrueBrain> I kinda refuse to open the file to find the width, as mediawiki does :P
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19:40:30  <andythenorth> I want to give people experience so they can get jobs elsewhere
19:40:48  <andythenorth> I kinda know how to train long-term employees
19:41:13  <andythenorth> it's like a work experience thing, paid
19:41:51  <andythenorth> I can't actually employ them, they won't know anything :P
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19:43:10  <frosch123> do you want to train them? or does the government force you to?
19:46:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly opened pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip
19:49:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly updated pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip
19:49:50  *** tokai has quit IRC
19:50:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip
19:51:52  <TrueBrain> that was scary quick :o
19:52:49  <frosch123> in time for a t-shirt or a tree
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20:09:30  <TrueBrain> how to tell in CSS an img should use the width/height of the image?
20:09:48  <LordAro> auto?
20:09:49  <TrueBrain> I now have images rendering as 0x0 :P
20:10:01  <LordAro> 100% ?
20:10:03  <TrueBrain> nope, auto doesn't work
20:10:08  * LordAro does not know css
20:10:14  <TrueBrain> 100% neither
20:10:18  <TrueBrain> so .... why help?
20:10:20  <TrueBrain> :(
20:10:23  <TrueBrain> I do appreciate it :P
20:10:55  <TrueBrain> <- a bit lower, there is a table with 2 rows, "Path Signal" and "One-way Path Signal". There are images left there
20:11:00  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: please fix!
20:11:13  <frosch123> TrueBrain:
20:11:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: "this is what i would try"
20:11:37  <LordAro> you didn't say what you had tried already :p
20:11:58  <TrueBrain> I was trying the things you mention :D I am willing to try anything :P
20:12:00  <TrueBrain> as this annoys me
20:12:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no joy :(
20:12:27  <andythenorth> frosch123 I want to
20:12:31  <andythenorth> or I want to try
20:12:45  <andythenorth> not even sure why, but eh
20:13:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: how old are they? < 20, < 30, > 50 ?
20:13:43  <andythenorth> dunno, might be from non-traditional route, i.e. not 22 year old comp. sci grads
20:13:56  <andythenorth> might be retraining older, might be 9
20:13:59  <andythenorth> 19 *
20:14:01  <andythenorth> 9 is ambitious
20:14:13  <frosch123> so, inhomogen on all scales :)
20:14:20  <andythenorth> yup
20:14:41  <andythenorth> the trigger is seeing too many people saying the industry is hard to get in to
20:14:49  <andythenorth> yet nobody can hire
20:14:52  <andythenorth> just seems dumb
20:15:16  <frosch123> oh, that's just the imature schooling
20:15:25  <frosch123> there are like 50 types of engineering degrees
20:15:33  <frosch123> yet only 3 software degrees
20:15:45  <andythenorth> tend to agree
20:15:46  <frosch123> 50 is probably an low estimate
20:15:49  <TrueBrain> wikitextparser seems to refuse to parse tables in a list .. I am not against that ...
20:15:57  <andythenorth> 'professional standards' is lolz in software
20:16:00  <andythenorth> compared to medicine
20:16:02  <andythenorth> or even law
20:16:24  <andythenorth> we have a lot of hot air about science and facts, but so much opinion and emotion
20:16:26  <andythenorth> and low standards
20:16:53  <andythenorth> not that I wanted standards :P
20:16:57  <frosch123> anyway, an expert at one company, can be completely useless at another company
20:17:14  <andythenorth> I quit civil engineering because it was so constrained and you have to be chartered etc
20:17:21  <andythenorth> and it was....boring
20:17:29  <frosch123> just like a building construction engineer is useless at a car manufacturer
20:17:48  <andythenorth> unless you want a car factory built?
20:17:51  <andythenorth> :)
20:31:11  <TrueBrain> ugh, I need to insert <p> in the right places .. this will be painful ... I am sure someone else solved this :P
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20:44:22  <andythenorth> auto formatter
20:52:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: <- that [[Image tag is weird
20:52:52  <TrueBrain> owh, wait, Image is a parameter
20:53:01  <TrueBrain> okay, in that case only the conversion goes wrong :)
20:54:29  <TrueBrain> not sure why it becomes "File:en/.{{{", that "." in there
20:56:21  <frosch123> i may keep my page mapping, but rewrite the link-replacement with a real mediawiki parser, instead of my regexes :)
20:56:45  <TrueBrain> can I suggest wikitextparser? :D
20:58:07  <TrueBrain> style="width="100%"; border=1"
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20:58:12  <TrueBrain> this is .... ugh ... that .... no
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21:01:10  <TrueBrain> <- pretty sure my changes didn't improve the page :D
21:01:33  <TrueBrain> fixed it back to the old way, but without error
21:01:43  <TrueBrain> need to get that wiki quota!
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21:07:21  <TrueBrain> mediawiki allows way too much wrong code ...
21:07:24  <TrueBrain> tables are a mess too :)
21:07:30  <TrueBrain> I love my "--check-all" :D
21:08:01  <glx> yeah a page can be full of broken tables and still display fine
21:08:19  <TrueBrain> even has a broken table :P
21:10:28  <TrueBrain> he is consistent in the mistake at least :D
21:11:16  <TrueBrain> the history is going to have pages that simply do not render properly
21:11:36  <TrueBrain> I will make it as minimal as possible the part that doesn't render, but this is just something that is going to happen :D
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21:14:57  <TrueBrain> a very boring history :P
21:18:15  <frosch123> you are fluent in many languages, ru, fr, pl
21:19:30  <frosch123> hmm, the tables you fixed... i think i learned it to do like that :)
21:20:08  <TrueBrain> that was obvious :)
21:20:13  <TrueBrain> you are the only one, so it is okay :D
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21:24:45  <frosch123> night
21:24:47  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:26:58  <TrueBrain> attribute name of a table .. "boarder"
21:26:59  <TrueBrain> :D
21:27:53  <TrueBrain> at least we are sure that never worked :P
21:30:48  <TrueBrain> okay, I am at the M in pages of fixing tables .. enough for tonight :)
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