Log for #openttd on 29th October 2020:
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11:54:37  <TrueBrain> funny .. I think the repository frosch123 created is marged to use LFS, but is not really using it
11:54:54  <TrueBrain> mainly as we would have hit the bandwidth limits by now already, easily .. and I don't have git-lfs installed and I have the files :P
11:55:32  <TrueBrain> well, maybe it is better to not use LFS :P
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12:58:48  <TrueBrain> <- I made a red thing in the navigation :P
13:11:06  <andythenorth> nice :)
13:12:32  <andythenorth> 'very nice'
13:16:38  <TrueBrain> maybe it motivates people to fix shit :D
13:22:46  <LordAro> nice
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13:53:11  <supermop_Home> well andy I found a pretty good American Cornish yarg analog
13:53:32  <supermop_Home> well, from vermont
13:59:03  <andythenorth> pretty rad
13:59:23  <supermop_Home> its hay wrapped instead of nettle wrapped though
13:59:38  <supermop_Home> don't really have nettles on the east coast for some reason
14:00:08  <supermop_Home> and slightly firmer, but flavor profile is there
14:01:01  <andythenorth> I am told that nettles are fairly uniquely British
14:01:05  <andythenorth> dunno how true that is
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14:52:02  <supermop_Home> Wikipedia would suggest no?
15:05:31  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Is it no longer possible to download grfs directly from the bananas wobsite?
15:05:48  <FLHerne> (or only for some grfs, for some reason?)
15:05:52  <TrueBrain> it is not; well, it hasn't for a few months now :)
15:07:14  <FLHerne> Is that a deliberate policy, or not-implemented-and-who-cares?
15:07:42  <TrueBrain>
15:07:55  <FLHerne> Ok
15:07:56  <TrueBrain> someone claimed to made a patch for it .. but .. it was only words on IRC
15:08:15  <TrueBrain> I am a bit disappointed that in your spectrum it is either: policy <-> we don't care :P
15:08:20  <TrueBrain> there are things in between there :)
15:09:05  <FLHerne> Well, the 'few months' indicates a fairly low bound on the level of caring ;-)
15:09:15  <TrueBrain> clearly the community doesn't care, indeed :)
15:09:25  <TrueBrain> you are only the second person to notice and ask about it :P
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15:10:13  <TrueBrain> we should use one of these "what-feature-to-work-on-next" pages :D
15:10:22  <TrueBrain> (as it is of course a matter of priority, more than anything else)
15:11:06  <FLHerne> Yes
15:11:25  <FLHerne> I only noticed because it breaks most of the links on this wiki page :p
15:11:46  <FLHerne> I don't know if a new scheme would fix them anyway
15:12:05  <TrueBrain> yeah .. people were never suppose to link to those files directly to start with ..meh
15:12:11  <FLHerne> Since it would presumably use sensible names rather than whatever-the-author-uploaded...
15:12:30  <TrueBrain> what do you mean, sorry?
15:14:31  <FLHerne> I mean, the old links are like `bananas/newgrf/JapanSet_Landscape-3.1.tar.gz`, where the last part is I think just whatever the grf author uploaded it as?
15:14:56  <TrueBrain> no; it is the name of the BaNaNaS entry + the version entered there
15:15:08  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS always repacks everything users upload, to sanitize stuff .. like the tar name
15:15:16  <TrueBrain> the current BaNaNaS still does exactly the same
15:15:33  <FLHerne> Whereas the new system puts more information into the filenames, so it wouldn't be the same unless explicitly trying to be
15:15:35  <TrueBrain> (in other words, 0 chance on name collisions :D)
15:15:36  <FLHerne> Hm, ok
15:16:06  <TrueBrain> the new URLs are a bit more clever, as it contains the md5sum too
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15:16:18  <TrueBrain> but that is merely an implementation detail :D
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15:16:55  <TrueBrain> (in reality, the names are stored in AWS S3 as <md5sum>.tar.gz, and a Lambda@Edge rewrites the URLs to match <md5sum>/<anything>.tar.gz to <md5sum>.tar.gz)
15:17:06  <TrueBrain> s/match/rewrite/
15:17:15  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, that word can be left out completely
15:17:17  <TrueBrain> what-ever :P
15:17:22  <TrueBrain> you get what I mean I hope :)
15:17:47  <TrueBrain> but anyway, these URLs always have been a bit problemetic; in the old BaNaNaS, these URLs only existed as long as it was the latest upload of that GRFID
15:17:58  <TrueBrain> upload a newer version, and the link becomes invalid
15:18:23  <TrueBrain> I hope in the new BaNaNaS we can have an URL pointing to first, which might redirect you to the CDN, or return you a nicer error telling youwhat is going on
15:18:43  <TrueBrain> but it first requires demand to become anywhere near the list of "to implement in 2021" :P
15:18:50  <TrueBrain> I had more requests to re-add download statistics, for example
15:19:36  <FLHerne> Yep, makes sense
15:19:58  <FLHerne> Although I feel like those were self-perpetuating :p
15:20:00  <TrueBrain> so I would say, on that Wiki page, the links should be changed to the BaNaNaS URL (the non-download)
15:20:07  <TrueBrain> how do you mean?
15:20:21  <FLHerne> People sorted by 'most downloaded' and downloaded them
15:20:36  <FLHerne> On the basis that those must be the best ones, right?
15:20:39  <TrueBrain> yeah, I never liked the way we implemented the old system
15:20:49  <TrueBrain> I was planning to do it a bit differently this time around
15:20:54  <FLHerne> (and not just the oldest)
15:20:59  <TrueBrain> and only show the last 90 days or something, and "downloads per day" or what-ever
15:21:03  <TrueBrain> still allows for this behaviour
15:21:06  <TrueBrain> but should weaken it a bit
15:21:37  <TrueBrain> and also track per entry, not per version
15:21:46  <TrueBrain> to avoid being punished for uploading a new version
15:22:45  <FLHerne> I like that idea
15:23:27  <TrueBrain> it still isn't perfect, but it should help
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15:49:07  <TrueBrain> right ... lot of bookkeeping more, but TrueWiki can now (locally) track metadata with a cache
15:49:16  <TrueBrain> if a Page changes, it knows what to invalidate and what to rebuild
15:49:18  <TrueBrain> instead of everything
15:49:28  <TrueBrain> means it no longer takes 90+ seconds EVERY startup :P
15:50:16  <TrueBrain> it does how-ever consume a bit more memory .. and I might have made a mistake :P
15:50:40  <TrueBrain> I would rather have made scanning for metadata faster, but .. I have no clue how atm ... it is CPU-bound, but not in Python-land ..
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15:56:55  <TrueBrain> haha, no, this invalidation approach does not work :P To easy to make the metadata-cache to become inconsistent
15:56:57  <TrueBrain> bah ...
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17:20:18  <milek7_>
17:20:24  <milek7_> another wiki moving to git, it seems
17:36:45  <TrueBrain> GitHub even. And that is because it is just a good idea :D
17:51:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:51:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:33:06  <andythenorth> yo
18:39:06  <supermop_Home> yo
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19:58:15  <TrueBrain> frosch123: am I right to conclude that you have in fact not used Git LFS for the wiki-data repo? :D
19:58:54  <frosch123> no
19:59:09  <frosch123> i see it in action
19:59:27  <frosch123> what makes you think so?
19:59:34  <TrueBrain> two things that surprised me: 1), the quota is 1GB per month ... it should be 300MB, and I downloaded it at least 4 times already
19:59:40  <TrueBrain> 2) I do not have Git LFS installed, and I have the files :P
20:00:14  <frosch123> what size is your .git folder?
20:00:25  <frosch123> mine is 448 mb
20:00:35  <TrueBrain> 567M    ./.git
20:00:47  <TrueBrain> difference is most likely a GC run
20:01:05  <TrueBrain> there are no attributes on the files after a git clone
20:01:32  <TrueBrain> <- what does this say for you at Git LFS Data?
20:03:25  <frosch123> hmm, 0
20:03:52  <TrueBrain> this might not be a bad thing .. it seems if we use Git LFS, we will have to buy some data packs for GitHub
20:03:54  <frosch123> everything on that page says 0
20:04:07  <TrueBrain> yeah, if you have only public repos, most things will be 0
20:04:15  <TrueBrain> from what I understand, Git LFS is not one of them
20:04:21  <TrueBrain> but this is what I was researching
20:04:33  <TrueBrain> when I found out my git-lfs on WSL2 is in fact a Windows binary :P (and cannot be executed)
20:04:52  <TrueBrain> so I tried to find out how I was cloning the files .. to find out they were without LFS markers
20:05:08  <TrueBrain> it is still very unclear to me how this all works exactly tbh :P Hence the question :D
20:05:29  <TrueBrain> 420M Oct 24 23:28 pack-98f6ef7f21d57767b67b72eb4040fc5a69753ac3.pack
20:05:42  <TrueBrain> looking at the size, I receives the files via a git pack .. which I assume means not via LFS :P
20:05:49  <TrueBrain> but again .. not sure that is a bad thing :)
20:06:18  <TrueBrain> git repos can become up to 1GB before GitHub starts to be less friendly, and at 5GB they start to ask you to fix it, from what I understand
20:06:25  <TrueBrain> (without LFS)
20:06:35  <TrueBrain> not sure how big git becomes if you import the history
20:06:54  <TrueBrain> but honestly, we can just prune the history of File/** every year or so, and nobody would ever notice
20:07:04  <frosch123> it's not much more
20:07:14  <frosch123> the images have no deep history
20:07:36  <TrueBrain> so maybe we should just not use LFS :) Well, we cannot have files of 100+MB, but ... I assume we don't want those anyway :D
20:07:52  <TrueBrain> in other news:  <- check out the badge on View Source :D
20:08:09  <frosch123> already saw :) quite nice
20:08:34  <TrueBrain> I am mostly battling the start-up times atm .. not sure what to do with it
20:08:44  <TrueBrain> so I guess I am going to leave it alone for a bit, and first make the "edit" part
20:11:17  <frosch123> TrueBrain: my initial goal with git lfs was to make git log faster
20:11:28  <TrueBrain> that is a good idea indeed
20:11:39  <TrueBrain> I was considering using the GitHub API for it :P
20:11:40  <frosch123> the first repo that contained the complete history took 20 seconds or longer to show the history of a file
20:11:53  <frosch123> somehow git has to uncompress all diffs to figure out whether a file is involved
20:12:12  <frosch123> i assumed that would be faster with lfs
20:12:57  <TrueBrain> never worked with LFS; no clue tbh :)
20:13:10  <TrueBrain> from what I read, the files committed to the git itself are 130 bytes or so
20:13:18  <TrueBrain> so yeah, I can imagine it would make git operations quicker :)
20:13:40  <TrueBrain> I wonder how GitHub does it tbh
20:14:05  <frosch123> they have their own index :)
20:14:10  <frosch123> (i bet)
20:15:05  <TrueBrain> not a terrible thing for us :)
20:16:13  <TrueBrain> anyway, I think I did everything for the view part we should have for a v1
20:16:22  <TrueBrain> well, with the exception of caching headers
20:16:46  <frosch123> do we have something to show folders?
20:17:02  <TrueBrain> did you still want that? Didn't we say Categories should be doing that?
20:17:08  <TrueBrain> (I am fine with both, btw, honest question)
20:17:31  <frosch123> last idea was some Folder: category
20:17:33  <TrueBrain> we can make a /Folder/en/Manual page for example
20:17:55  <TrueBrain> and list there folders / files in a similar way as Categories do
20:18:06  <TrueBrain> hmm .. would be /Folder/Page/en/Manual, I guess
20:18:17  <TrueBrain> as having /Folder/Category/ would also be needed, I guess
20:18:25  <frosch123> <- let's say i am here. how to i get back to "manual"?
20:18:38  <TrueBrain> that is currently fully up to that page
20:18:50  <TrueBrain> in this case of course pressing Manual in the navigation bar there
20:18:55  <TrueBrain> so this page it is relative simple
20:19:09  <frosch123> so, maybe the header could show the path, where you can click upwards, and some "show list of files in current directory"
20:19:20  <TrueBrain> okay, so we talk about two different things here
20:19:27  <TrueBrain> you want a breadcrumb, I am guessing?
20:19:56  <TrueBrain> how I read you, it splits up in 2 feature requests: navigation through the folders, and listing content of folders
20:20:12  <TrueBrain> the navigation part should be solved by the navigation panes, I think
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20:20:20  <TrueBrain> not sure there needs more bloating on the page for that
20:20:29  <TrueBrain> sure, we need to revise the navigation panes, as some are terrible
20:20:30  <frosch123> <- yes, two features, the "go folder up" is present on that other wiki
20:21:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i was hoping we could get some automatic categories :)
20:21:14  <frosch123> so people do not just dump pages somewhere
20:21:20  <TrueBrain> well, that is the listing part I guess
20:21:28  <TrueBrain> that wiki you show, also has the same information in 2 places
20:21:32  <TrueBrain> breadcrumbs, and navigation pane
20:21:35  <TrueBrain> not sure that is really useful
20:21:42  <TrueBrain> but okay, that is more a minor thing
20:21:47  <TrueBrain> listing what is in a folder sounds like a sane thing
20:21:56  <frosch123> no idea what breadcrumbs are
20:22:11  <TrueBrain> and we can either do that with a new namespace Folder, or with "auto" categories like /Category/Manual, or what-ever
20:22:24  <TrueBrain>
20:22:40  <TrueBrain> basically that thing on the top left in the wiki you linked :)
20:23:04  <frosch123> yeah, i want that :)
20:23:13  <TrueBrain> but why, if we have a navigation pane that does that too?
20:23:16  <frosch123> i want it NOAW
20:23:20  <TrueBrain> :D
20:23:37  <TrueBrain> for example, it will look terrible on
20:23:42  <frosch123> currently it's not even possible to get to the main page :p
20:23:52  <TrueBrain> yes, it is .. hit the logo :)
20:24:02  <TrueBrain> (holds true for ALL our sites btw, that run on AWS)
20:24:18  <frosch123> you mean the text next to the logo?
20:24:23  <TrueBrain> oops, yes
20:24:24  <TrueBrain> :P
20:24:28  <TrueBrain> tomato tomato
20:24:36  <TrueBrain> but okay, I can add a breadcrumb so we can see if it works
20:24:53  <TrueBrain> what I personally would like, is to automate that navigation pane .. but I think we concluded that would be difficult :D
20:24:57  <frosch123> why would it look terrible?
20:25:14  <frosch123> it could even go into the tab line in the header
20:25:16  <TrueBrain> that specific page would have a "level up" that goes to
20:25:19  <TrueBrain> so you go from "3" to "1"
20:25:23  <TrueBrain> it is a terrible UI flow
20:25:36  <TrueBrain> but that happens with the way tabs are added in our wiki :)
20:25:45  <frosch123> Main Page | Manual | Tutorial | Trains | hfill | View Source | View History | Login
20:26:01  <TrueBrain> it is not about the location; it is about the UX :)
20:26:07  <TrueBrain> but we just add it, and debate it then :P
20:26:23  <TrueBrain> pretty sure what-ever we pick, some pages will need restructuring to become sane
20:26:29  <frosch123> 3 to 1 ?
20:26:40  <TrueBrain> I already concluded that TrueWiki will be an "opinionated" wiki server :)
20:26:49  <TrueBrain> "3. Trains" -> "1. Starting"
20:26:58  <TrueBrain>
20:27:15  <frosch123> ah, stupid tabs :)
20:27:22  <TrueBrain> exactly :)
20:27:39  <frosch123> well, the tabs are also on the right, we should just delete them :)
20:28:00  <TrueBrain> what I always really like, is at the bottom of Tutorials: go to next step
20:28:04  <TrueBrain> (like we have here)
20:28:10  <TrueBrain> the tabs themself .. I could do without
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20:28:36  <TrueBrain> but okay, breadcrumbs, sure, we add them, debate them
20:28:41  <TrueBrain> but how about listing
20:29:01  <TrueBrain> we can automate it, if we restructure the files even more, but the a-b-c was an issue
20:29:25  <TrueBrain> automate it, as in, generate the navigation panes we see now in yellow
20:29:45  <frosch123> maybe Category:en/Manual/Tutorial is not that bad
20:29:58  <frosch123> add all pages to the category with their folder name by default
20:30:22  <frosch123> then people can still edit the the category page if they want to add some text
20:30:48  <TrueBrain> and just assume nobody wants to make a custom category with that name :D
20:31:02  <frosch123> they should use a better name then
20:31:35  <TrueBrain> currently there are no categories in any folder, so that is good
20:31:43  <TrueBrain> so we can do [[Category:blabla]] for custom categories
20:31:55  <frosch123> they should have languages
20:31:55  <TrueBrain> euh, en/blabla
20:32:17  <TrueBrain> and have the en/NNN/ for listing of folders
20:32:25  <TrueBrain> so you cannot add pages to there manually
20:32:35  <TrueBrain> not sure .. maybe we should just name them Folder/
20:32:41  <TrueBrain> and add them as if they were a category
20:32:57  <TrueBrain> so you link to there with [[:Folder/en/Manual/Tutorial]]
20:33:14  <TrueBrain> but okay, here too .. I will cook something up, and we can tune it after
20:33:22  <TrueBrain> well, not tonight, but tomorrow :P
20:34:32  <frosch123> "Pushing large files to forks of a repository count against the parent repository's bandwidth and storage quotas, rather than the quotas of the fork owner." <- is it just me, or does that make absolutely no sense?
20:34:50  <TrueBrain> I doesn't make any sense
20:34:53  <TrueBrain> it kinda freaked me out, honestly
20:35:59  <FLHerne> frosch123: Because in github's weird implementation, forks are actually part of the parent repo
20:36:10  <FLHerne> That's how you get this sort of fun abuse
20:36:26  <LordAro> which is hilarious
20:36:33  <FLHerne> Yes
20:36:46  <LordAro> and there's nothing they can do about it unless they go munging in the git repo directly
20:36:55  <LordAro> which they'll probably do, tbh
20:38:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: anything else missing from the wiki?
20:38:34  <frosch123> features or content?
20:38:38  <TrueBrain> either
20:38:52  <TrueBrain> For edit I was planning to do the same as bananas-api: edits are stored in the git repo locally first, and push every N minutes to GitHub
20:39:00  <TrueBrain> otherwise, a big textarea, and a "preview" tab
20:39:04  <TrueBrain> bit of Javascript to make that smooth
20:39:11  <frosch123> sounds good :)
20:39:17  <TrueBrain> new pages you make to go to that URL, you get a "file not found", and you can hit Create
20:39:24  <TrueBrain> new folder ... no clue yet
20:39:35  <frosch123> i want to check this weekend, which File or User pages to migrate, if any
20:39:36  <TrueBrain> new files .. some simple HTTP upload form I was thinking
20:39:48  <TrueBrain> sounds good
20:40:21  <frosch123> TrueBrain: most important edit feature: prevent creating pages/uploads that differ in case only :)
20:40:30  <TrueBrain> haha, yes :)
20:40:51  <TrueBrain> which means keeping a lower-case array of all pages, but that is not an issue :)
20:41:04  <TrueBrain> memory is still < 64MB, so we have some room :P
20:41:47  <TrueBrain> the most difficult part for editing will be the invalidation of categories and translations, that it doesn't have to reload 90s every edit :P
20:41:53  <TrueBrain> I failed in that today .. lot of bookkeeping ...
20:42:00  <TrueBrain> I need to find a simpler system there
20:42:41  <frosch123> how long does it take to render all pages?
20:42:53  <TrueBrain> all pages fully, about 9 minutes
20:43:00  <TrueBrain> gathering only the metadata, 90 seconds
20:43:12  <frosch123> is that too long to do at container start?
20:43:19  <TrueBrain> 90s is fine
20:43:20  <TrueBrain> ish
20:43:29  <TrueBrain> I rather have it faster, but it will have to do for now :)
20:43:37  <TrueBrain> container startup has a deadline of 5 minutes, so there is some room
20:43:44  <frosch123> so some local sqlite?
20:44:13  <frosch123> fill at container start, update when revision changes, but only changed files
20:44:20  <TrueBrain> the biggest trouble I ran into, is invalidating the metadata after "git pull"
20:44:35  <TrueBrain> as what files changed :P
20:44:49  <TrueBrain> but I like the idea of using sqlite or something .. depends on the memory footprint tbh
20:44:53  <frosch123> store the revision you index last?
20:45:01  <TrueBrain> and just "git diff" it .. hmm
20:45:09  <frosch123> exactly :)
20:45:29  <TrueBrain> something to think about a bit more
20:45:49  <TrueBrain> I am also still wondering if we shouldn't just prerender all pages to HTML and upload to S3
20:45:55  <TrueBrain> I am still somewhat tempted to just go that route
20:46:12  <frosch123> ok, i think i missed some "/**" in my lfs setup, that's why it did not work
20:46:14  <TrueBrain> but okay, for editing the dynamic part needs to work anyway, so first build, later optimize :)
20:46:39  <frosch123> but given how the lfs quotas work, it's kind of a no-go, which is silly
20:46:47  <TrueBrain> I like how I butchered: "build first, optimize later"
20:46:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: indeed
20:47:09  <TrueBrain> if uploads are ever really an issue, we can always go the BaNaNaS way, and put the uploads only on S3
20:47:17  <TrueBrain> would be a bit of a shame, but .. it is a possibility
20:47:39  <TrueBrain> but given this is 15 years of wiki data ... I think we will be fine
20:49:15  <TrueBrain> frosch123: there is btw 1 user that has some templates on his space
20:49:22  <TrueBrain> not sure if they are  important
20:49:31  <TrueBrain> just remember those, as they took a bit of time to render at first :D
20:50:27  <frosch123> yes, that user is a major annoyance :)
20:52:52  <TrueBrain> :D
20:55:11  <frosch123> hmm, so my transitivity-usage checks still do not work properly
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20:55:30  <frosch123> none of those templates and categories should be present :)
20:59:31  <TrueBrain> which ones, sorry?
21:02:09  <frosch123> those of that one user
21:02:22  <TrueBrain> ah .. I just noticed it when talking to the live API
21:02:31  <TrueBrain> haven't spotted it in your export yet :)
21:04:25  <TrueBrain> 42 {{SERVER}} and 15 {{fullurl: that will no longer work .. I think I am going to fix them on the current wiki already ... if I feel like it, that is
21:04:37  <TrueBrain> it is just silly that you have to know the server-name tbfh ..
21:04:39  <TrueBrain> such an old concept
21:06:09  <frosch123> lol, they use that to create links to "edit this page"?
21:06:15  <frosch123> what a weird idea
21:06:25  <TrueBrain> yeah ... I just noticed that too
21:06:30  <TrueBrain> so I am just going to remove it completely :P
21:07:28  <TrueBrain> 16 places it is used useful, the {{SERVER}}
21:07:36  <TrueBrain> to view a page coming from a variable
21:08:56  <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe I can even remove the "localurl"
21:09:08  <TrueBrain> would be nice .. not having all these weird things people can break stuff with, is a bonus :)
21:12:26  <frosch123> i saw a lot of usages of PAGENAME, which are probably all broken :)
21:13:30  <frosch123> people used it to add [[File:Steel]] to page [[Steel]]. but that does no longer work for File:en/Steel and page en/Manual/Base Set/Cargos/Steel :)
21:14:24  <TrueBrain> Ghehe
21:14:28  <TrueBrain> Lazy people
21:14:38  <TrueBrain> It is kinda clever
21:14:45  <frosch123> hmm, didn't you mention a list of broken links some time ago?
21:14:57  <frosch123> missing images etc
21:15:01  <TrueBrain> I can generate a list, yes
21:15:07  <TrueBrain> Will do so tomorrow
21:15:11  <frosch123> :)
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23:17:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] SupSuper opened issue #70: [pt_PT] Translator access request

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