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00:06:16 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 00:09:52 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 00:17:13 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 00:17:52 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 00:24:59 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 00:25:57 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:26:45 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 01:05:12 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:25:41 <FLHerne> grfcodec does some truly INSANE things with va_lists 01:26:13 <FLHerne> There are call stacks five or so functions deep, passing the damn things around 01:27:07 <FLHerne> (in the process of reimplementing the stdlib in incredibly broken parody) 01:27:54 <FLHerne> Look at this https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/blob/master/src/sanity_defines.h#L73 and where it's used https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/blob/master/src/strings.cpp#L397 01:28:07 <FLHerne> We're going to summon Cthulu by accident with this stuff 01:28:33 <FLHerne> (also, my compiler hates it) 01:31:49 <FLHerne> Oh god, myvsprintf recurses 01:53:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] FLHerne commented on pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JTQqL 02:00:57 *** azubieta has left #openttd 02:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that's when you try to do "clever" things but vastly overestimate your cleverness 02:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (which is pretty much all the time) 02:14:22 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 02:16:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] glx22 commented on pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JTQY7 02:40:05 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 02:41:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #166: WIP: handle labels more readably https://git.io/JTQ39 03:36:06 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 03:44:55 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 03:54:09 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:57:34 *** debdog has quit IRC 04:12:40 *** glx has quit IRC 05:28:00 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:13:03 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 08:21:27 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 08:21:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 08:40:22 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 08:45:18 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:45:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #166: WIP: handle labels more readably https://git.io/JTQ1x 08:51:56 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:05:52 *** longtomjr has joined #openttd 09:06:04 <Wolf01> Back to restoring tanks which andy destroyed 09:11:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:19:52 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 09:21:04 <andythenorth> yo 09:23:26 <longtomjr> o/ 09:23:43 <longtomjr> Did you figure something out with the freighters yesterday? 09:44:51 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 09:45:52 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's ridiculous that "firs" is on that list, given how out-dated that page is. maybe we should redirect to andy's docs instead :p 09:48:51 <TrueBrain> pfff, means he should update the wiki :P 09:50:18 <frosch123> i like that "cheats" is top-8. but what is special about "maglev" to make it top-11? 09:50:31 <longtomjr> it is fast? 09:51:05 * andythenorth figured out there's lots of drawing to do :P 09:51:35 <longtomjr> Hehe, but are you going ahead with the existing design for the 2 large freighers? 09:51:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: when was firs 0.9 ? 09:51:42 <andythenorth> oof 09:52:24 <frosch123> because that top-30 wiki page starts with it being outdated, because firs 0.9 changed some things :) 09:52:53 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1063858#p1063858 09:53:16 <frosch123> coop bundles start with 1.3 09:53:18 <andythenorth> I think I wrote that note https://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS 09:53:28 <andythenorth> yes was me 09:54:02 <frosch123> nice that it was translated into polish this year :) 09:56:29 <andythenorth> it's a great world 09:57:20 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think it's not worth installing any redirects :) 09:57:41 <TrueBrain> :) 09:59:54 <frosch123> bad tb, you broke the image on the firs page :p 10:00:07 <TrueBrain> how? 10:01:08 <TrueBrain> pretty sure it was always broken 10:01:13 <TrueBrain> |screenshot= 10:01:21 <TrueBrain> don't blame me for the incompetent of others :P 10:01:40 <frosch123> never mind. i jumped the gun :) 10:01:50 <TrueBrain> :D 10:02:28 <TrueBrain> still possible I broke the template btw :P 10:13:16 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 10:14:37 <andythenorth> hmm 10:14:40 <andythenorth> tanker ships 10:32:36 <TrueBrain> that moment that you move a lot of code around, and it all starts to make a lot more sense ... :D 11:15:54 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 11:18:25 <andythenorth> \o/ 11:21:59 <andythenorth> oof 11:22:10 <andythenorth> so grfs can provide a url to their website 11:22:14 <andythenorth> but urls break 11:22:17 <andythenorth> hmm 11:23:00 <frosch123> ask google, maybe they install a redirect on their dns 11:27:23 <andythenorth> I did consider just letting them break 11:27:30 <andythenorth> as that's the least effort 11:27:48 <andythenorth> in fact, it's already implemented 11:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> two questions at that point: 1) how often does it break? and 2) is there a non-broken replacement easily available? 11:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (where "easily available" would be "latest version on bananas") 11:34:10 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:34:27 <andythenorth> 1) unknown, depends on coop bundles 2) yes 11:34:40 <andythenorth> except in cases like HEQS, FISH, Squid, which are unmaintained 11:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> by "break" do you mean "currently unavailable" or "moved permanently"? 11:40:34 <andythenorth> "unsupported" 11:41:05 <andythenorth> my inclination is to file this under not-a-problem 11:41:12 <andythenorth> "things fall apart", it's natural 11:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to agree 11:42:21 <andythenorth> that just leaves the slightly odd case of what to insert for dev releases 11:42:31 <andythenorth> for which the docs might not be published 11:42:35 * andythenorth wavey hands 11:42:50 <andythenorth> [the docs are no longer published by CI on every commit] 11:42:53 <andythenorth> manual process now 11:52:54 *** nielsm has quit IRC 12:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes no sense. it's either a dev version or a release 12:30:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] Predmann opened issue #72: [pl_PL] Translator access request https://git.io/JTQhK 12:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say that is a non-issue, only archive docs for release versions. dev version docs stay on "latest" 12:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever "latest" happens to be 12:48:45 <andythenorth> not sure how to reliably calculate "latest" 12:48:54 <andythenorth> probably not a hard problem, but eh 12:49:57 <andythenorth> the script to generate index pages is pretty crude https://github.com/andythenorth/grf.farm/blob/master/src/build_dist.py#L23 12:50:24 <andythenorth> maybe python parse module can do it 13:06:53 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:06:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:27:24 <andythenorth> maybe I just conditionally drop the action 14 for url, if current rev is not a tag 13:27:42 <andythenorth> all public releases get a tag 13:27:49 <andythenorth> all tags get docs 13:30:53 <andythenorth> "git name-rev --name-only --tags HEAD" might be my friend 13:31:01 * andythenorth copies from Stack Overflow 13:31:39 <andythenorth> hmm comments say that fails in branches 13:34:28 * andythenorth will leave this to competent people 13:34:33 <andythenorth> pixels to draw here 13:49:03 <TrueBrain> w00p, namespaces are not modular units .. and we can simply add new ones if we like to add new features to our wiki :) :D 13:49:41 <TrueBrain> not = now, nasty typo 13:55:52 <frosch123> the reverse transformation of fragments is ambiguous, but well, i got something 13:56:38 <frosch123> slugify lower-cases everything? 13:57:18 <TrueBrain> slugify use python-slugify 13:57:20 <TrueBrain> :P 13:57:27 <TrueBrain> don't try it yourself pretty please :) 13:57:38 <frosch123> no, i am just reading the diff 13:58:05 <TrueBrain> ah, sorry, misunderstood what you said there :) 13:58:09 <TrueBrain> and yes, slugs should be lowercase 13:58:18 <TrueBrain> you can see around <hN> how the slug should look 14:02:17 <TrueBrain> hmm .. someone uploaded a scenario as an image .. 14:02:20 <TrueBrain> what are we going to do with that? 14:02:41 <frosch123> they just changed the extensio to .png? or what 14:02:53 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 14:02:55 <frosch123> tell me, i just add it to the perma trash list :) 14:02:57 <TrueBrain> nope, a scn 14:03:10 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Scenario:Fractal_Landscape <- "Download this scenario" 14:03:21 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Index.php/Image:Fractal_Landscape.scn <- IT IS PRETTY! 14:03:30 <TrueBrain> it is really stupid 14:03:44 <frosch123> it's alreasy in the trash list 14:03:59 <TrueBrain> Page/en/Community/Scenarios/Fractal Landscape.mediawiki 14:04:09 <TrueBrain> is the new link 14:05:34 <frosch123> yes, but the download is trashed 14:05:40 <TrueBrain> so ... we are going to remove the link? 14:06:01 <frosch123> we can also trash the whole page? 14:06:02 <TrueBrain> or remove the page? As without the download, the page is not useful either 14:06:09 <TrueBrain> I think that is the only sane thing to do tbh 14:06:13 <frosch123> ok, i'll remove the page then :) 14:06:18 <TrueBrain> cheers 14:07:39 <frosch123> i pushed the slugify result 14:08:10 <frosch123> well, now i did :) 14:10:05 *** Progman has quit IRC 14:11:58 <TrueBrain> and I fixed a lot more {{SERVER}} and others 14:12:02 <TrueBrain> so when-ever you feel like it, please bash the API again for a while :D 14:12:33 <TrueBrain> - --><sup><tt>[[#note-{{{name|}}}-1|[1]]]</tt></sup></span><!-- 14:12:33 <TrueBrain> + --><sup><tt>[[#note-name-1|[1]]]</tt></sup></span><!-- 14:12:37 <TrueBrain> found an issue with your latest push :) 14:12:55 <frosch123> wtf. template inside fragment? :p 14:13:00 <frosch123> who does that? 14:13:10 <TrueBrain> you really asking that? :P 14:13:30 <TrueBrain> I would just skip slugify if {{{ is found in hash, tbh 14:13:35 <frosch123> well, we won't fix that anyway. so this is not more broken than before 14:14:39 <frosch123> but okay, added the same { check as for other things 14:14:48 <TrueBrain> and it works btw :D 14:14:54 <TrueBrain> the new hashes point to the right places 14:15:31 <frosch123> i also did some magic bytes:fromhex and decode("utf-8") :p 14:15:38 <frosch123> not sure whether it matters anywhere 14:15:54 <TrueBrain> urllib can decode it too for you :P 14:16:01 <TrueBrain> it is best effort ... :) 14:16:13 <frosch123> it's not percent encoded 14:16:22 <frosch123> it's dot encoded or something 14:16:29 <TrueBrain> owh, they used that silly encoding .. they replaced % with . 14:16:41 <TrueBrain> but reversing that is .. euhm .. yeah, what-ever 14:16:47 <frosch123> yes, but they did not escape ".", so it becomes ambiguous 14:17:05 <frosch123> ".C5" can mean two things 14:17:24 <TrueBrain> slugs are not meant to be reversed :P 14:17:29 <TrueBrain> but their slug is .. extra special :D 14:18:19 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/TrueWiki/pull/14 <- today I did a lot, but it didn't change anything :D 14:18:47 <frosch123> i see, adding some zerg 14:19:07 <frosch123> advancing to lair tech 14:19:12 <TrueBrain> :D 14:21:08 <TrueBrain> okay, what next ... I have a bunch of TODOs to fix 14:21:19 <TrueBrain> File namespace to implement .. 14:21:38 <TrueBrain> git commit + push 14:21:49 <TrueBrain> but otherwise I think we are getting feature-complete here ... I should make a list of things we need to do or something 14:24:17 <TrueBrain> owh, yes, caching of metadata .. and invalidating .. 14:24:17 <TrueBrain> that really has to be resolved :P 14:40:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] manu-alonso opened issue #73: [gl_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JT73G 15:25:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 15:32:28 <frosch123> damn, i hit a limit of wikitextparser :) 15:33:17 <frosch123> [[Image:Terminus.png|center|none|frame|Einfache Kopfbahnhöfe: der linke benutzt [[Signale/De#Blocksignale|Blocksignale]] <- when i fix the center|none i invalidate the link in the caption 15:37:09 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: BaNaNaS doesn't compress downloads at all, does it? 15:37:17 <frosch123> let's add more parse/unparse :) 15:37:31 <frosch123> FLHerne: there should be http gz compression 15:37:39 <FLHerne> lzma or zstd compression of code-heavy grfs (e.g. FIRS) is pretty good 15:37:42 <frosch123> or some other kind of gz compression 15:38:03 <FLHerne> Only knocks about 25% off zBase though 15:38:10 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: how do you arrive at that conclusion? 15:38:15 <TrueBrain> (that it does not compress?) 15:38:33 <TrueBrain> frosch123: lol .. yeah, links in links took me a while to get right .. 15:38:37 <glx> compressed zBase is still huge anyway 15:38:42 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: That I've never heard anyone mention compression, nor seen the code for it :p 15:39:00 <FLHerne> That doesn't make me at all confident, hence the question... 15:39:01 <TrueBrain> empirical evidence! :D 15:40:23 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: https://github.com/OpenTTD/bananas-api/blob/master/bananas_api/new_upload/session_publish.py#L67 15:40:47 <TrueBrain> all files are stored and transmitted compressed 15:40:52 <TrueBrain> has been since day 1 btw :) 15:41:37 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/network/network_content.cpp#L523 to match the other end 15:41:51 <TrueBrain> not sure about the "not seen the code for it".. sounds more like: never looked at the code :P :P :D 15:44:44 <TrueBrain> introduced in https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/3a13b75e37b5642de3c1e89cf6ab3bf860b76375 :) Funny :) 15:44:55 <TrueBrain> 11 years ago, damnnnnn 15:45:00 <TrueBrain> and I guess it is a compliment to the implementation that you never heard anyone mention it :) 15:45:03 <TrueBrain> as sturdy as a rock :P 15:45:37 <FLHerne> Okay, okay, you can stop beating me over the head with it now :p 15:45:37 <frosch123> best IT is the IT you never hear about :) 15:45:41 <FLHerne> And what frosch123 said 15:46:09 <TrueBrain> haha, sorry FLHerne , wasn't meant like that :) 15:46:09 <TrueBrain> I had to look it up too if it really was .. I assumed it was 15:46:17 <FLHerne> (the bad part is where it works so well that everyone forgets about it, and *then* it breaks for some reason...) 15:46:45 <TrueBrain> one could wonder if there are better compressions than gzip 15:46:47 <FLHerne> Modern compression algorithms do seem to improve on gzip somewhat 15:46:49 <FLHerne> ^^ 15:46:51 <TrueBrain> but .. don't think it will matter too much 15:46:59 <glx> ha that looks like tar extraction of music packs 15:47:09 <TrueBrain> we used to do gzip -9, but it turned out it was only wasting CPU 15:47:48 <FLHerne> FIRS is 4.8M uncompressed, 772K with gzip, 584K with zstd 15:47:48 <TrueBrain> @calc 772 / 4800 15:47:48 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.160833333333 15:47:54 <TrueBrain> @calc 584 / 4800 15:47:54 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.121666666667 15:48:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 15:48:09 <frosch123> didn't rb code some dynamic compression rate when sending savegames to joining players, that balances cpu time with how long it takes to send stuff? 15:48:15 <FLHerne> zBase is 313M (!) uncompressed, 274M with gzip, 223M with zstd 15:48:36 <glx> but old clients know gz only 15:48:36 <FLHerne> Doesn't compress nearly so well, I guess because it's mostly images... 15:48:49 <TrueBrain> main issue with a compression like zstd: not many tools support it yet .. and do they have a stable API by now? 15:48:50 <FLHerne> Yeah, but most people are on the latest client 15:49:14 <FLHerne> And the web download links don't even work, as discussed the other day :p 15:49:14 <glx> depends on distrib 15:49:24 <TrueBrain> the API was in flux for years .. which was rather annoying 15:49:46 <TrueBrain> anyway, FLHerne , the way forward would be: add zstd support in OpenTTD (also for savegames pretty please :P); which requires finding a decent library with the right license, I guess 15:50:04 <TrueBrain> after that, we can change BaNaNaS to store both formats 15:50:14 <TrueBrain> after that, a small change to the protocol to make it "zstd-aware" 15:50:20 <FLHerne> glx: You need current one for multiplayer and recent grf features, I think most non-very-casual players get the current version one way or another 15:50:47 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is and always has been backwards compatible :) 15:50:53 <TrueBrain> it is not a lot of work to do that 15:51:03 <frosch123> did anyone report that the "download nightly" link on the wiki sidebar does not work? :p 15:51:52 * FLHerne puts it on the list of things that shouldn't be much work ;-) 15:51:52 <TrueBrain> adding it to OpenTTD client is the most work, honestly 15:51:52 <TrueBrain> owh, the content-protocol doesnt have a version number 15:51:52 <TrueBrain> that is silly 15:52:28 <TrueBrain> so it will have to be a new packet 15:52:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: when ottd downloads via http, it sets the supported compression in the header? 15:52:29 <TrueBrain> but that really is minor effort 15:52:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: the file being sent is a .tar.gz 15:52:56 <TrueBrain> so I hope it doesn't set compression headers 15:52:56 <TrueBrain> it really shouldn't :P 15:53:11 <TrueBrain> (as gzipping a gzip is not really a good use of CPU) 15:54:02 <TrueBrain> well, not having a version number for the content-protocol is a bit of a boo-boo .. we should have known by then that it will come in handy some day 15:54:02 <TrueBrain> owh well .. 15:55:12 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: It could be worse 15:55:36 <FLHerne> .deb packages contain a file that must contain only the number 9 15:55:46 <TrueBrain> for HTTP it is a matter of adding a query-string, for the TCP protocol it is adding a version number and changing the packet type .. together with adding support in bananas-api and bananas-server, it is like 2 or 3 days work 15:55:52 <FLHerne> For some reason, this number can't be either changed or removed 15:56:40 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:57:02 <FLHerne> Ok 15:57:27 <TrueBrain> ugh, the Python modules still vendor zstd .. but at least their API seems to have stabilized 15:57:28 <FLHerne> But right now I'm trying to make NML string code slightly less stupid :p 15:57:33 <TrueBrain> I worked with zstd ... 4 years ago? 15:57:36 <TrueBrain> it was a nightmare :P 15:58:01 <TrueBrain> zstd headers were custom per tool .. which was another issue ... just a minor issue :P lol .. 15:58:03 <FLHerne> It seems fairly stable now, some distros are using it for package compression 15:58:08 <TrueBrain> good 15:58:15 <TrueBrain> as it really was better in compression and CPU usage 15:58:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:59:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: only host/user-agent is set, so pfew, it doesn't add extra overhead there :) 15:59:11 <TrueBrain> not really surprising, given OpenTTD doesn't use a http library 15:59:18 <TrueBrain> it is lovely .. "custom" :D 15:59:39 <TrueBrain> I was somewhat surprised it worked with the HTTP the AWS ALB spits out :P 16:00:02 <FLHerne> How about configurable content servers? Then the simuscape people can have their own... 16:00:14 <TrueBrain> what do you mean? 16:00:22 <TrueBrain> what you wrote could mean almost anything :P 16:01:32 <FLHerne> How about making it possible to add custom content-server URLs in the client, so people who don't like BaNaNaS for strange reasons can still have ingame-downloadable content? 16:01:54 <FLHerne> If they set up their own server instance 16:01:56 <TrueBrain> ah :D Sorry, I rather ask than guess and misunderstand :P 16:02:13 <FLHerne> The sticking point is probably that they wouldn't... 16:02:16 <TrueBrain> well, people can run their own content-servers; if they want people to use it, they can cook their own client :) 16:02:55 <frosch123> seriously... what is wrong with the polish translator? 16:02:59 <TrueBrain> it is one of the reasons I wanted to rewrite bananas and have it decoupled, so it could be on GitHub 16:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think allowing people to host their own content servers is dangerous 16:03:06 <frosch123> they translated a "talk" page... 16:03:34 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: for example, I can see CityMania or Reddit to host their own, with their own client 16:03:38 <FLHerne> Perhaps they're a confused robot 16:03:40 <TrueBrain> so it has the downloads they use on their servers 16:04:15 <TrueBrain> but supporting a custom URL .. not sure anyone would ever use that, honestly :) 16:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: at best that leads to a more fractured community 16:04:50 <TrueBrain> I am more afraid for the license violations it leads to 16:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:05:49 <TrueBrain> anyway, I don't see simubla having the infra to run these kind of things honestly :) 16:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> imho it would be better if we maintain a curated list of download servers, and if they want to be on that list they have to assure us that they respect licenses 16:06:12 <FLHerne> frosch123: When you said Action8 might not work with Unicode, did you mean the grfid, or were you thinking of something else? 16:06:26 <FLHerne> (because I can't find documentation of 'something else') 16:06:35 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: easier: official OpenTTD uses official infra, which we maintain 16:06:41 <frosch123> FLHerne: that was a wip comment. it works :) 16:06:43 <TrueBrain> if you want to use another content server, bake your own client :) 16:07:17 <FLHerne> frosch123: Ok, thanks :-) 16:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the two immediate uses of that would be a) a mirror of the coop grf pack with all the old grfs of people who won't upload to bananas, and b) a bananas-with-experimental-grfs 16:07:17 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: anyway, so the wishlist for content-service is: HTTPS support and zstd :D 16:07:32 <TrueBrain> I prefer HTTPS being done before zstd, if I can put any priority in there :) 16:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> all the coop grfs are technically distributable, but they clash with the bananas requirement of being the author to upload them 16:08:42 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just let the old stuff die 16:08:52 <FLHerne> Change the BaNaNaS policy? 16:08:59 <TrueBrain> I like that being part of the policy honestly :) 16:09:09 <TrueBrain> it avoids so many silly arguments 16:09:09 <FLHerne> frosch123: Then you get the occasional person with ancient savegames they can't find the grf for 16:09:13 <TrueBrain> "Are you the author? No? Byeeeeeeeeee" 16:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a perfectly fine policy for a "anyone can upload" server 16:10:22 <FLHerne> "You must be the creator, unless the creator has been inactive for at least five years" would avoid most conflicts 16:10:31 <TrueBrain> does it? :D 16:10:45 <FLHerne> Also, looking at the various FIRS clones, "the creator" can mean changing a handful of properties and the name :p 16:10:56 <TrueBrain> so many people misunderstand licenses or used the wrong one from their intent 16:11:11 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Yeah, but if they've been inactive for years they'll never notice anyway 16:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: nobody would be helped by that policy. the reason it is there is that it's easy to check for us 16:11:19 <TrueBrain> it is a nightmare if anyone can upload anything, because they -think- the license allows it 16:11:48 <FLHerne> So no complaints 16:11:57 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: well .. I am not sure about that :P 16:11:57 <TrueBrain> I suspect some people to come back from the death just to stab a bit more :P 16:11:57 <TrueBrain> anyway, it is a subjective term 16:12:02 <TrueBrain> and those are annoying in execution 16:12:06 <TrueBrain> the current terms are objective 16:12:07 <TrueBrain> you are either the author or not 16:12:24 <TrueBrain> it avoids burning developers out doing stupid shit like license conflicts :D 16:12:55 <TrueBrain> we had sufficient of those in 2009 honestly :P 16:12:55 <TrueBrain> And I am still annoyed by them :D 16:14:22 <TrueBrain> I couldn't believe then, and I still can believe now, how much a very small group was absolutely against their work being distributed 16:14:49 <TrueBrain> like .. we build this game for free for anyone to play, and your addition to it, should be heavily guarded and restricted in distribution .. 16:14:58 <TrueBrain> but that is me personally failing to understand :P 16:15:07 <FLHerne> On license technicalities, does bananas keep a copy of the source of GPL grfs? 16:15:14 <TrueBrain> it doesn't have to, so no 16:15:19 <FLHerne> If not, what happens if the original source host disappears? 16:15:32 <TrueBrain> we are not the license owner; we have no quarrel in that 16:16:26 <FLHerne> I don't see how that works 16:16:52 <FLHerne> Unless the uploader gives BaNaNaS a separate non-GPL license to distribute 16:17:05 <TrueBrain> they give us an explicit permission to distribute their work 16:17:07 <FLHerne> Which they might not be able to, if it's based on any code from another grf 16:17:25 <TrueBrain> (hence again that we want the author to upload the file; they can give us a license to distribute) 16:17:44 <andythenorth> did I miss something? :P 16:17:44 <TrueBrain> and from that point on, it doesn't really matter what the license is 16:17:54 <TrueBrain> it can be a commercial license, a CC-0, or anything in between 16:17:55 <FLHerne> But that means that if grf A is under GPL by someone else 16:18:16 <FLHerne> and I use code from that in my own grf B, under GPL terms 16:18:42 <FLHerne> I then can't upload B to bananas, because it would infringe the author of A's rights 16:19:06 <TrueBrain> very strictly seen, but let's please not make this world more complicated than it has to be, and these kind of questions always (and always) lead to there: 16:19:28 <TrueBrain> author of grf A can argue that the author of grf B did not have the permission to license it to us for distribution, and requests removal 16:19:35 <TrueBrain> we will always and always process these kind of requests 16:19:40 <TrueBrain> just ... nobody in his right mind does that 16:19:50 <TrueBrain> so it is more a hypothetical :) 16:20:08 <TrueBrain> we, as BaNaNaS redistribution platform, request that the author can give us a distribution license 16:20:08 <FLHerne> There's strong evidence that not all grf authors are in their right mind, so I'm not sure it's hypothetical :-/ 16:20:15 <TrueBrain> if he does, and is not allowed to, that is a problem between the license owners 16:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we already established that nobody involved is in his right mind in the first place :p 16:20:39 <TrueBrain> it is a hypothetical, as nobody ever made any fuzz about this left or right 16:20:51 <TrueBrain> all issues we had so far, are from other problems 16:20:59 <andythenorth> does anyone but me actually have a lawyer? o_O 16:21:10 * andythenorth back to pixels 16:21:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: well, 11 years of people shitting over the licenses of BaNaNaS makes you read up on a lot of it :P 16:21:46 <FLHerne> I get to listen to my brother complaining about accounting technicalities a lot... 16:22:09 <frosch123> if bananas was agpl licensed, would that make all content distributed by it also agpl? :) 16:22:12 <TrueBrain> but anyway, left or right: we have done our due indigents to receive the proper license to distribute. Anyone who disagrees someone else gave us the license, can email us at info@openttd.org :) 16:22:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no :) 16:22:18 <andythenorth> frosch123 'no' 16:22:22 <frosch123> aw :( 16:22:51 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: basically, this is what all distribution platforms do; otherwise you cannot distribute anything in this world 16:22:58 <TrueBrain> as people will fake their permission, sooner or later 16:23:20 <TrueBrain> we do our best with the information provided; if someone provides other information, we will investigate 16:23:28 <andythenorth> frosch123 did you think expanding buy menu padding for ships was viable? 16:23:39 <andythenorth> or shall I just put more blue around the sprite (with python) 16:23:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought michi fixed it all 16:24:04 <andythenorth> not in 1.10.2 16:24:09 <andythenorth> maybe I missed something 16:24:18 <andythenorth> I stopped reading github notifications a few months ago 16:24:45 <frosch123> oh, i refering to a change that was 1.4 or 1.5 :p 16:25:45 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: what makes GPL difficult in those regards: if grf A from your scenario is published on BaNaNaS, it is difficult to argue grf B cannot be published there 16:26:17 <TrueBrain> one could argue that by the extend of the fact grf A is already under the distribution license, grf B has to be too 16:26:33 * andythenorth reads commits 16:26:52 <andythenorth> GPL is almost irrelevant 16:26:59 <TrueBrain> but when it comes to these details of licensing, country-of-origin kicks in 16:27:41 <andythenorth> no author of GPL program A can restrict what author of GPL program B (derived from program A) does 16:27:49 <TrueBrain> in general, I rather talk in the intent of a license .. what did the author wanted to achieve with it 16:27:51 <andythenorth> it's inherent to GPL 16:28:16 * andythenorth reading commits still 16:28:37 <andythenorth> did PRs outnumber issues yet? 16:28:43 <TrueBrain> CC tried to fix this, by having very clear rules of license .. but .. people found typos and mistakes in the text :P 16:28:43 * andythenorth stopped reading any of this stuff 16:29:12 <TrueBrain> (not really typos .. but typos in the intent) 16:30:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: well, sort of .. the author of program B has to show the source upon request ;) 16:30:13 <andythenorth> yes, granted that 16:30:19 <frosch123> shall i derail again? we had a dicussion whether playing a CC-ND licensed scenario cannot be played because the savegame is a derivate of the scenario :) 16:30:45 * andythenorth will go back to Horse 16:30:45 <andythenorth> too much of my life spent on licensing debates :) 16:30:45 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I would love to be able to pay a court to get a verdict on these things, really 16:30:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: trains more fun than ships? 16:30:49 <andythenorth> all fun has been exhausted 16:31:01 <andythenorth> trains faster to make than ships 16:31:01 <TrueBrain> as it is a really interesting case to debate about 16:31:01 <TrueBrain> and I am really curious what a judge rules there 16:31:04 <andythenorth> I made an engine in 20 minutes this morning 16:32:04 <andythenorth> fundamentally ships are less interesting than trains :P 16:32:04 <TrueBrain> I wonder mostly what the author would mean by licensing a scenario CC-ND 16:32:04 <andythenorth> they're all just big floating boxes 16:32:22 <TrueBrain> what does he want to prevent .. someone making a derivative of the scenario? 16:32:49 <TrueBrain> which brings us to, I guess, the most forgotten thing in debates about license: someone has to sue first .. so it fully depends on the original author an his intentions :) 16:32:49 <andythenorth> anyone want to provide some python that can figure out if current git rev has an annotated tag? 16:33:00 <andythenorth> true / false would be enough 16:33:16 <frosch123> TrueBrain: they probably want to prevent someone uploading a "better scenario" 16:33:26 <TrueBrain> so they will never sue for savegames :P 16:33:36 <frosch123> i love forks of X that are named "better X" :) 16:33:36 <andythenorth> Better FIRS 16:33:39 <andythenorth> Better Horse 16:33:42 <TrueBrain> but what is fun ... Scenario under CC-ND .. savegames under ???, someone finds an old savegame, makes it into a scenario .. now what? 16:33:56 <TrueBrain> he didn't know the original work was under a license 16:34:19 <TrueBrain> so should we license all our savegames created from a scenario? 16:34:19 <TrueBrain> or just all savegames? :D 16:34:25 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i am sure ottd is at fault. it should have properly inscribed the scenario origin into the savegame, and prevent conversion 16:34:48 <frosch123> ottd does not have enough drm featurs 16:34:48 <TrueBrain> and this is why I love living in The Netherlands .. "common sense" kicks in somewhere there 16:35:23 <TrueBrain> well, yeah, DRM is the result of people wanting to protect what they perceive as theirs no matter what 16:35:38 <glx> "common" is not common for some people ;) 16:35:38 <TrueBrain> (no judgement on if they are correct in that perception, btw) 16:35:55 <TrueBrain> glx: in The Netherlands they mostly find a nice way to balance that issue 16:36:01 <TrueBrain> to weed out the weirdos with their .. "special" world view :P 16:37:16 <TrueBrain> I think in the end, and I hope we do that right, with OpenTTD we try to be a good boy, while not over-complicating the world 16:37:40 <TrueBrain> yes, you can debate every single upload on BaNaNaS .. but in the end, 99% of the uploads are there because the author intended it to be there 16:37:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we only have that https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__307.html 16:38:00 <frosch123> also, yay, hobby lawyer talk :) 16:38:08 <glx> indeed there is not so many banned content on openttd 16:38:18 <glx> so it basically works 16:38:21 <TrueBrain> very few disputes, and we try to mediate as much as we can 16:38:31 <TrueBrain> sure you can find issues and loopholes ... 16:38:31 <TrueBrain> but are they really relevant? 16:38:41 <TrueBrain> as soon as someone sues ... we are all out of here 16:38:44 <TrueBrain> like ... I guess you won? 16:39:22 <TrueBrain> We did our best, we did our research, we tried to be good .. is the rest really relevant? 16:39:55 <TrueBrain> for the same reason we never send anyone an email (like ever) for any announcement, "because we have your email, and you never did an opt-out" or what-ever :P 16:39:55 <TrueBrain> we don't want to be "that guy" .. 16:40:33 <glx> opt-out is illegal here anyway IIRC 16:40:33 <TrueBrain> sssstttt 16:40:34 <TrueBrain> :P 16:40:45 <TrueBrain> but we did that before GDPR already ;) 16:41:18 <frosch123> aw... i thought we could use them for the ottd-monthly-subscription 16:41:18 <glx> yeah because it was the right thing to do from the begining 16:41:18 <andythenorth> also law isn't 0 and 1 16:41:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "<andythenorth> no author of GPL program A can restrict what author of GPL program B (derived from program A) does" <- except that B must remain under the GPL 16:41:34 <FLHerne> And BaNaNaS uploads technically aren't 16:41:48 <TrueBrain> I think FLHerne has some reading up to do :) 16:41:48 <andythenorth> yes, being under the GPL is entailed by "GPL program B" ;) 16:41:48 <andythenorth> clue is in the name :) 16:42:03 <FLHerne> s/remain under/not be distributed except under the terms of/ 16:42:03 * andythenorth back to pixels 16:42:24 <glx> BaNaNaS can't know it's a derivative work anyway 16:42:36 <TrueBrain> in the end, everyone things they know the law of licensing ... but AGPL hasn't seen any court yet 16:42:42 <TrueBrain> nobody even knows it is a valid license, as a random example 16:42:44 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Right, but BaNaNaS demands a separate, non-GPL-compliant license from the author of B 16:42:53 <andythenorth> yes 16:42:56 <andythenorth> which they can grant 16:43:05 <andythenorth> I get the point 16:43:16 <andythenorth> but distribution isn't modification 16:43:17 <TrueBrain> things? thinks .. lol .. 16:43:42 <glx> and if A complains with simple proof, B is removed from BaNaNaS 16:43:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: They can only grant it with the permission of A's author 16:44:08 <andythenorth> because they're not the author of the whole program? 16:44:08 <andythenorth> arguable 16:44:26 <andythenorth> so you think our bananas license is wrong? 16:44:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because the BaNaNaS upload license allows unlimited redistribution without the source being provided 16:44:53 <andythenorth> doesn't matter 16:45:05 <FLHerne> Which isn't GPL-compatible, so it conflicts with the license of the code taken from A 16:45:25 <andythenorth> no 16:45:25 <TrueBrain> common misconception of GPL 16:45:30 <andythenorth> this is all covered in GPL FAQs, if you dig enough 16:45:33 <glx> A must provide source if asked, not BaNaNaS 16:46:02 <andythenorth> distribution is not modification 16:46:02 <andythenorth> I don't think that is a controversial assertion 16:48:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, but I don't see how that applies to the GPL 16:48:36 <FLHerne> "You may convey a covered work in object code form under the terms of sections 4 and 5, provided that you also convey the machine-readable Corresponding Source under the terms of this License" 16:48:45 <andythenorth> or an offer 16:49:06 <FLHerne> Where 'convey' means "any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies." 16:49:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sure, but bananas doesn't make such an offer 16:49:50 <FLHerne> Unless I've badly misread the GPL, there's no exception from a source offer for distributing unmodified binaries 16:49:54 <andythenorth> you've misread the GPL 16:50:04 <andythenorth> we're not the authors 16:50:27 <FLHerne> "we're" being the bananas operators? 16:50:42 <FLHerne> No, you're distributors 16:51:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] SeveralCircles opened issue #74: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JT7zg 16:51:27 <andythenorth> you're probably right 16:51:31 <FLHerne> GPL doesn't say "if you're the author of a modified version you must provide source" 16:51:31 <andythenorth> on balanace 16:51:47 <FLHerne> It says "if you distribute the binary version, you must provide source" 16:51:49 <frosch123> TrueBrain: pushed new stuff 16:51:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: \o/ 16:52:03 <andythenorth> oh TrueBrain you did allow this in the end :) https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/4b4b0001 16:52:09 <andythenorth> not sure if it offends me or not 16:52:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: somewhat .. how it is presented in-game, it is less .. like that 16:52:28 <TrueBrain> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/4b4b0001/2020-10-04T16:22:16+00:00 16:52:35 <TrueBrain> I am still waiting for someone to complain about that 16:52:39 <TrueBrain> would love to change both 16:53:59 <andythenorth> I suspect that all the grfs I've released are GPL violations 16:54:11 <andythenorth> oh dear 16:54:25 <frosch123> sue yourself! 16:54:27 <TrueBrain> "art should not be released under GPL licenses" 16:54:40 <andythenorth> nah it's not that 16:54:42 <glx> but there's code in newgrf 16:54:51 <glx> ;) 16:54:56 <andythenorth> there's no written offer to provide source, valid for 3 years, cost-controlled 16:55:00 <andythenorth> required by GPL 16:55:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: have you checked whether you use any trademarked colours in your sprites? 16:55:13 <andythenorth> ouch the lolz 16:55:27 <andythenorth> but seriously, none of my grfs have that written offer 16:55:53 <andythenorth> nor do I have any copyright agreement with contributors 16:55:53 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: relicense to v3, and done 16:55:53 <glx> there's probably a link to your github somewhere 16:55:53 <andythenorth> invalid 16:56:12 <TrueBrain> okay, more correct: request your contributors to agree with a relicense to v3 :P 16:56:47 <glx> (and good luck to the mental health of the people wanting to read it ;) ) 16:57:14 <andythenorth> oh maybe 3C applies 16:57:44 <andythenorth> " Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)" 16:57:55 <andythenorth> I suspect the GPL could have a bus driven through it TBH 16:58:15 <andythenorth> I've done a lot of commercial law in the last 20 years, and the GPL v2 looks quite naive now 16:58:21 <TrueBrain> haha, yes :) 16:58:24 <TrueBrain> but .. 1991? :P 16:58:24 <andythenorth> yup 16:58:28 <andythenorth> time and context 16:58:46 <TrueBrain> I still love that AGPL is a direct reaction of people violating the intend of the license. 16:59:38 <TrueBrain> like I said yesterday ... when is the Star-Trek era beginning? That we can all stop with this non-sense of "mine" and "yours"? 17:00:02 * andythenorth signs up to that newsletter 17:00:35 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:00:46 <andythenorth> so if Github goes down tomorrow, any GPL offer I make is invalid 17:00:46 <andythenorth> lol 17:00:57 <TrueBrain> GPLv2, yes 17:00:59 <andythenorth> gotta love side effects 17:01:16 <TrueBrain> well, not perse btw 17:01:16 <TrueBrain> but the offer-part kicks in for sure 17:01:29 <TrueBrain> it is like .... if you want to be annoying, you can be annoying ;) 17:01:43 <andythenorth> so does anyone have wording for written offer for source? 17:02:04 <TrueBrain> I like how v3 found out it was an oopsie to say 3 years in v2 :P 17:02:13 <andythenorth> oh OpenTTD violates GPL also? 17:03:06 <TrueBrain> relicensing OpenTTD will be interesting :D 17:03:14 <andythenorth> I see no written offer to provide source in any docs 17:03:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the GitHub link is kinda implying that :P 17:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't ever give a written order with a download 17:04:05 <andythenorth> not valid 17:04:05 <TrueBrain> and, also, it is given to you at download 17:04:09 <TrueBrain> so the "offer" part is not required ;) 17:04:17 <TrueBrain> the source and binary are distributed next to each other 17:05:03 <andythenorth> and if it's in your ports tree? 17:05:03 <andythenorth> they need to provide the offer there? 17:05:10 <andythenorth> their problem 17:05:10 <TrueBrain> deb vs deb-src, ofc 17:05:25 <andythenorth> ok so Bananas does need to make the written offer 17:05:26 <andythenorth> that's a fucker 17:05:54 <andythenorth> was I drawing trains? 17:06:27 <TrueBrain> frosch123: all {{SERVER, localurl and fullurl are gone \o/ 17:06:28 <TrueBrain> w00p 17:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, ships 17:06:49 <frosch123> yep, not at 11k issues :) 17:06:49 <frosch123> *now 17:06:49 <TrueBrain> just a few wiki.openttd.org references left 17:07:17 <TrueBrain> removing the "edit" thingy didn't work for all files, it seems 17:07:20 <TrueBrain> ah ... translations .. 17:07:33 <TrueBrain> [<span class="plainlinks">[http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Template:Barre_de_progression_du_traqueur_32bpp/Fr&action=edit edit]</span>] 17:07:33 <TrueBrain> would you be so kind frosch123 ? :D 17:07:41 <andythenorth> how would we enforce the written offer? 17:07:50 <andythenorth> boring boring 17:07:56 <andythenorth> we don't mandate there has to be a readme etc 17:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> let me reiterate: there is no way to provide a written offer with a download 17:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "written offer" implies being in physical form 17:09:35 <TrueBrain> that was how they meant it to be read in v2, yes :P 17:09:35 <andythenorth> ok well 3A is also out 17:09:36 <TrueBrain> in a different world :D 17:09:36 <andythenorth> "Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;" 17:09:36 <frosch123> TrueBrain: pushed 17:09:36 <andythenorth> we're not going to distribute source with grfs 17:09:55 <TrueBrain> frosch123: [<span class="plainlinks">[http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Template:Barre de progression du traqueur 32bpp/Fr&action=edit edit]</span>] :( 17:09:55 <TrueBrain> spaces ... underscores ... 17:10:00 <TrueBrain> maybe just regex the URL away 17:10:18 <andythenorth> but 3C requires 3B anyway 17:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the only remotely practical way is to require GPL grfs to come with a link to the source 17:10:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you were talking about OpenTTD, right? :) 17:10:34 <andythenorth> back to grfs 17:10:54 <andythenorth> in the absence of source, the author must have complied with B, a written offer 17:10:54 <andythenorth> they have no choice 17:11:06 <andythenorth> author can't fall back on C, only distributors can use C 17:11:15 <TrueBrain> for BaNaNaS the license is irrelevant .. you can like that or not, but at upload you give us a license to distribute 17:11:26 <andythenorth> I thought that 17:11:31 <TrueBrain> so it becomes either dual-licensed with GPL, or the author is in violation of his own license 17:11:44 <andythenorth> but we're distributing GPL artefacts 17:11:45 <andythenorth> we can't wavey hands a dual license 17:12:15 <andythenorth> v2 FAQS are really clear 17:12:15 <TrueBrain> you can dual-license GPL just fine :) 17:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if there ever is a complaint about GPL violation, the grf is removed from bananas 17:12:15 <andythenorth> only your own contributions 17:12:15 <TrueBrain> it might not be valid in court .. but is that our problem? 17:12:22 <andythenorth> you can't dual-licenses 3rd party GPL code 17:12:50 <TrueBrain> what I do agree with, and what we talked about before: we should be more clear what the license means for uploads 17:12:50 <TrueBrain> as people are just clicking what-ever 17:12:50 <andythenorth> so we need authors to provide a written offer 17:12:50 <andythenorth> and we have to convey that written offer 17:12:50 <andythenorth> what a fucker 17:12:50 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we, do not 17:13:16 <TrueBrain> we ask if you are the author 17:13:16 <TrueBrain> if you use code of which you are not the author .. it becomes out of our scope 17:13:16 <TrueBrain> we cannot defend the world against license violations 17:13:16 <TrueBrain> as that would mean we cannot operate 17:13:16 <andythenorth> the GPL disagrees 17:13:18 <TrueBrain> there is a balance 17:13:29 <TrueBrain> again, you are pointing the wrong finger :) 17:13:47 <andythenorth> well I just read the FAQs 17:13:47 <TrueBrain> basically, in a very bold statements: I don't care under what you license your shit 17:13:47 <TrueBrain> if you upload to BaNaNaS, you license us to distribute 17:13:47 <TrueBrain> if that license is valid or not .. that is not OUR problem 17:13:48 <TrueBrain> but YOUR problem 17:14:03 <TrueBrain> as "Custom" licenses would otherwise be impossible 17:14:17 <andythenorth> I want to agree 17:14:17 <andythenorth> and draw a train 17:14:19 <andythenorth> bu FLHerne is correct 17:14:35 <TrueBrain> so if GPL doesn't allow dual-licensing ... 17:14:35 <andythenorth> the GPL is infectious by design 17:14:51 <TrueBrain> best we can do is advise people not to use GPL (for art, that is always a good idea) 17:15:02 <TrueBrain> but we are back to that we should improve the license selection box :) 17:15:22 <andythenorth> we should ban GPL 17:15:23 <andythenorth> " For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code." 17:15:31 <andythenorth> we have no way to deliver that 17:15:42 <TrueBrain> again, we have nothing to do with the GPL license :) 17:15:52 <TrueBrain> and I know that sounds childish, but it is what is happening 17:16:10 <andythenorth> I don't see how you sustain that argument factually 17:16:11 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Yeah, but it basically prohibits (pedantic) grf authors from taking advantage of the GPL 17:16:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I don't see how it is not? 17:16:44 <andythenorth> We're distributing. 17:16:44 <TrueBrain> they give us a license 17:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the sustain part is basically: "it's fine as long as nobody complains" 17:16:45 <andythenorth> I thought we weren't, we were just providing a platform for authors to distribute. 17:17:01 <andythenorth> but it seems we are 17:17:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS distributes under the terms of a separate license granted by uploaders 17:17:01 <TrueBrain> of course we distribute; that is why we wanted a distribution license andythenorth :) 17:17:18 <TrueBrain> the question you are debating: can you dual license GPL 17:17:18 <FLHerne> The problem is that most GPL uploaders technically can't grant it 17:17:22 <TrueBrain> I dunno .. that is not my problem (in a very childish way) 17:17:30 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: You can dual-license GPL, but only if you wrote all of it 17:17:35 <FLHerne> (or get agreement from the other people) 17:17:39 <TrueBrain> so there you have it 17:17:46 <FLHerne> You can't if it uses someone else's GPL code at all 17:17:46 <TrueBrain> we cannot be the police over licensing 17:17:54 <TrueBrain> that would make any distribution platform non-existent 17:18:00 <FLHerne> Which is the point of GPL 17:18:06 <TrueBrain> we do our best to tell people to make sure they can give us the license 17:18:12 <andythenorth> how silly it all is 17:18:14 <TrueBrain> but in the end, the author is responsible for providing the correct information 17:18:30 <TrueBrain> but again, we can improve by giving better information to the uploader 17:18:39 <TrueBrain> informing him of what choice to make 17:18:54 <andythenorth> strictly I need to request removal of all my grfs on bananas 17:18:54 <andythenorth> and every derivative grf that has been forked from them 17:18:54 <TrueBrain> just email info@openttd.org 17:19:06 <andythenorth> yeah, I'll put it on my to-do list 17:19:33 <andythenorth> near the top, or bottom, do you think? 17:19:33 <TrueBrain> and the law in most countries are pretty clear on this btw 17:19:33 <TrueBrain> as distributor, you need to do your best to ensure the law isn't broken 17:19:44 <TrueBrain> but you cannot be responsible for people not giving the right information to you 17:20:14 <TrueBrain> and in my opinion, we do our best to ensure what we do is legal ... with the exception that would could educate people better on the license part 17:20:29 <andythenorth> well we need to remove GPL from the options 17:20:33 <andythenorth> it's a hole in our argument 17:20:54 <TrueBrain> and to be clear: nowhere I debate the GPL license; I debate that we have our own license 17:20:54 <andythenorth> we can't say 'dual-licensed but you can pick GPL' 17:20:54 <TrueBrain> no; you can distribute under GPL file 17:20:54 <TrueBrain> as long as you are the FULL author of the upload 17:21:03 <andythenorth> no we can't 17:21:11 <TrueBrain> you can dual-license GPL, I was just told? 17:21:15 <andythenorth> you can 17:21:27 <andythenorth> but we are presenting content as GPL-licensed, we should stop that 17:21:36 <andythenorth> we don't comply with GPL 17:21:49 <andythenorth> that angry Russian dude was correct it seems 17:21:50 <TrueBrain> you do know you don't have to tell anyone how often and how you licensed your software, right? 17:21:50 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 17:22:49 <TrueBrain> so I can license something GPL, and have some commercial licenses on the side too 17:22:49 <andythenorth> it's right here in the table 'license' 17:22:49 <andythenorth> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf 17:22:49 <TrueBrain> so I don't see your argument here? 17:22:49 <andythenorth> we don't meet the requirements for distributing GPL v2 17:22:49 <TrueBrain> yes ... the fact that something has a license .. how does that mean other people cannot have different licenses with that? 17:22:49 <andythenorth> if we want to distribute GPL v2 we have to comply with GPL v2 17:22:56 <TrueBrain> again debating the GPL license .. we are not debating the GPL license :) 17:23:19 <TrueBrain> can you dual license with GPL v2? 17:23:19 <andythenorth> yes of course 17:23:37 <TrueBrain> does an uploader give us such license on upload? 17:23:44 <andythenorth> no, they cannot give us a dual license 17:23:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your argument is wrong, I think 17:23:56 <TrueBrain> you ... just said they can? 17:23:56 <andythenorth> they give us the alternate non-GPL license 17:24:07 <andythenorth> we do not comply with GPL v2, we cannot distribute under it 17:24:10 <TrueBrain> I am not trying to comply with GPL 17:24:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The alternate non-GPL license allows bananas to distribute under GPL if it wants to 17:24:15 <TrueBrain> we are not distributing under GPL 17:24:21 <andythenorth> yes we are 17:24:47 <FLHerne> But it doesn't 17:24:47 <andythenorth> it's right here https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf 17:24:47 <TrueBrain> that is a misunderstanding on your part what that "license" means 17:24:48 <TrueBrain> it is NOT the distribution license we got 17:24:50 <TrueBrain> as that is between the author and us 17:25:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS lets clients download grfs unconditionally 17:25:11 <TrueBrain> we can, if you like, add to the page an *, stating: OpenTTD is granted a distribution license by the author 17:25:34 <TrueBrain> does that help? (as it is implied) 17:25:34 <andythenorth> no 17:25:34 <andythenorth> we need to stop distributing GPL v2 content, or comply with GPL v2 17:25:36 <andythenorth> one or the other 17:25:36 <FLHerne> Then *they* can distribute under the terms given in the GPL, but they can't really because they don't have the source 17:25:38 <TrueBrain> we are not trying to comply with GPL v2 :) 17:25:41 <TrueBrain> we are going in circles here :P 17:25:57 <andythenorth> we are distributing GPL v2, we have no choice but to comply :) 17:26:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No? 17:26:09 <andythenorth> it's not an opt-in, only if we feel like it 17:26:09 <TrueBrain> that is only true if dual-licensing doesn't exist :) 17:26:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS gets a license from the uploader to distribute it in any form, regardless of GPL restrictions 17:26:46 <andythenorth> there isn't like a magic condom that makes it GPL v2 when author compiles it, then something else when we distribute it, then GPL v2 again when they download it 17:27:04 <andythenorth> I thought we escaped it because we are only providing the service to authors, but seems not 17:27:06 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The issue is that the uploader can't grant that license in many cases, but that's not BaNaNaS' problem 17:27:17 <andythenorth> FLHerne that's a different issue 17:27:17 <FLHerne> (except perhaps in a 'providing a useful service' way) 17:27:27 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: on that point I btw see what you mean; I really would like a court-ruling on that, but I get that point 17:27:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Then I don't see what yours is 17:27:48 <Wolf01> https://9gag.com/gag/aj9jVzp lol 17:28:07 <andythenorth> I pasted above, straight from GPL v2 17:28:11 <andythenorth> "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code." 17:28:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if what you say is true, you cannot dual-license GPLv2 :) 17:28:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you write code, and release it under GPLv2, that doesn't prevent you from also selling it commercially or giving it to BaNaNaS 17:28:26 <andythenorth> TrueBrain of course you can dual-license it :) 17:28:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You aren't bound by the license because it's your code 17:28:35 <andythenorth> yes 17:28:36 <andythenorth> agreed 17:28:37 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: there is a contradiction in what you say :) 17:28:57 <andythenorth> but we aren't distributing it under an alternative license 17:28:57 <FLHerne> And BaNaNaS isn't bound by the GPL license because you gave it a separate one 17:28:57 <andythenorth> we are distributing it under GPL v2 17:29:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: there you are wrong; we are distributing under the license we hav efrom the author 17:29:26 <TrueBrain> what you mistake it with, is that that license is not transferable to the downloader 17:29:31 <andythenorth> this is so boring, can't we just call it a service to authors? 17:29:40 <TrueBrain> under that argument: I download a game from Epic, they have a download license, so now I do too? 17:29:56 <TrueBrain> a license is between 2 parties, right? 17:30:03 <TrueBrain> the license the author gives to its public, is GPLv2 17:30:09 <TrueBrain> the license they gave us, is: you can distribute this 17:30:25 <TrueBrain> a license doesn't have to be transferable 17:30:29 <andythenorth> we cannot distribute GPL v2 licensed programs without complying with GPL v2 17:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but we can 17:30:41 <andythenorth> it literally means we cannot cause the 1s and 0s to be conveyed 17:30:48 <FLHerne> ...and the license BaNaNaS gives its downloaders in that case is also 'GPL v2', but separately 17:31:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your argument makes no sense 17:31:09 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the AUTHOR cannot give us a license for distrubtion without complying to GPLv2 .. so HE has to take care of source distribution 17:31:13 <TrueBrain> HE has to make sure the link points to the source 17:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we distribute it with the bananas license, additionally, the user gets to redistribute it with gpl 17:31:25 <andythenorth> how many times do you want me to paste the GPL v2 text? 17:31:31 <TrueBrain> and again,I agree we can help this more, by adding something like: you selected GPL, make sure you link to your source! 17:31:40 <andythenorth> yes 17:31:43 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS' distribution isn't covered by the GPL 17:31:51 <andythenorth> FLHerne it is 17:31:53 <FLHerne> It isn't relevant 17:32:08 <andythenorth> the GPL entirely disagrees 17:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it really is not 17:32:12 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what you state makes dual-licensing impossible; proof me wrong? (maybe that helps us understand what you are saying) 17:32:21 <andythenorth> FLHerne we seem to have entirely switched positions, you pointed me to this :P 17:32:33 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS distribution is covered by https://bananas.openttd.org/manager/tos/1.3 17:32:41 <FLHerne> "You grant the OpenTTD team the rights to distribute the last version of your content from a central server. We will assign a globally unique identifier to each upload and everyone can download the content when they know that identifier." 17:32:50 <andythenorth> Yes 17:32:52 <FLHerne> "You grant the OpenTTD team to distribute your latest content via our website." 17:32:54 <FLHerne> etc 17:33:03 <TrueBrain> it is a very custom and specific license :P 17:33:06 <LordAro> oh heavens, this is still going on 17:33:06 <andythenorth> how many of you use Bananas for upload? 17:33:19 <andythenorth> when uploading, one has to choose a license 17:33:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The chosen license is the one given to downloaders by BaNaNaS 17:33:38 <TrueBrain> mind you, this is the license you grant our downloaders 17:33:41 <andythenorth> one of the options is GPL v2 17:33:51 <FLHerne> Not the one used by BaNaNaS for distribution 17:34:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] LordAro updated pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JTHDW 17:34:09 <andythenorth> it's GPL v2 program, the GPL v2 applies 17:34:19 <andythenorth> this is so simple, I am not sure how to make it simpler 17:34:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: lets pick another example: you download a Game. Steam, for example, has a distribution license, right? But the license of the game is DONOTDISTRUBTE 17:34:24 <TrueBrain> so how does that work? 17:35:00 <andythenorth> presumably a contract between rights holder and Steam, which permits that specific distribution 17:35:05 <TrueBrain> and again, nobody is debating the author has to comply with GPLv2 .. so he has to make sure he has a link to the source there 17:35:22 <andythenorth> it's all very silly 17:35:22 <TrueBrain> but .. by your own logic: how can they put a more strict license on the website? 17:35:24 <TrueBrain> as clearly it cannot be that strict, as I can download it? 17:35:33 <andythenorth> for the Steam case? 17:35:45 <TrueBrain> yes 17:35:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Right, and this is analogous to the terms of service between the rights-holder and BaNaNaS 17:35:46 <andythenorth> the rights hold licenses the distributor 17:35:58 <andythenorth> rights holder * 17:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that any different from bananas? 17:36:18 <FLHerne> You can upload a grf to BaNaNaS with a "do not distribute ever for any reason" custom license 17:36:45 <TrueBrain> that would be way more strict than GPLv2 :P 17:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you as uploader agree to be the rights holder, and you agree to the bananas license that is in the TOS 17:36:45 <FLHerne> It doesn't prevent BaNaNaS from distributing it, because you agreed to the ToS when you uploaded 17:36:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause the hypothetical Steam license is not GPL v2 17:36:51 <andythenorth> GPL v2 is viral by design 17:36:51 <TrueBrain> so GPLv2 is magic? It overrules other licenses? 17:37:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's only viral if you didn't write the original code 17:37:05 <TrueBrain> so, I come back to my counter-argument: by your statement, dual licensing GPLv2 is impossible 17:37:23 <andythenorth> no it's viral for any distribution 17:37:23 <frosch123> FLHerne: i think pikka uses that license 17:37:23 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you're the sole rights-holder, you can do whatever the hell you like with it 17:37:27 <TrueBrain> it either cannot be dual licensed, or what we do is valid 17:37:27 <FLHerne> It's your code 17:37:44 <TrueBrain> I can see your point andythenorth , but that means it cannot be dual licensed 17:37:44 <TrueBrain> if that is true, you are absolutely right 17:37:44 <andythenorth> before I re-read the FAQs, I was 100% convinced that distributing e.g. like Github binaries or whatever didn't touch the GPL v2 17:37:50 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: It's 100% not true 17:38:05 <andythenorth> FLHerne please 17:38:05 <andythenorth> ""For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code."" 17:38:21 <andythenorth> what's not clear in the GPL v2 there? 17:38:22 <TrueBrain> this is the part I am missing in andythenorth's argument .. he says it can be dual licensed, but you cannot violate GPLv2 no matter what 17:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that virality is backwards. gpl says you cannot forbid anyone to redistribute it, you still can add additional distribution ways 17:38:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nothing, but the author isn't bound by their own license 17:38:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: And they can nominate anyone else to not be bound by their own license either 17:38:57 <andythenorth> anyway law operates on remedies 17:39:02 <andythenorth> so a remedy is to remove the GPL v2 option from Bananas upload form 17:39:06 <TrueBrain> anyway, although it is a nice academic approach to this all, I think we can all agree we can help authors a bit more, by pointing out what they should and shouldn't be doing 17:39:14 <TrueBrain> and we can simply add: you selected GPLv2, please also provide a link to your source 17:39:14 <andythenorth> another remedy is to require an offer for the source 17:39:31 <TrueBrain> as it is the intend of the license 17:39:32 <andythenorth> I really thought this was different 17:39:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you say "I put this in the public domain and you can use it for any reason, but you can also use it under GPLv2", no-one is bound by that 17:39:50 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, we still do :P And your arguments are not seen as valid ;) So maybe some dinner might help there :) 17:40:16 <milek7_> but GPL text only applies when it is distributed under GPL, so if you use different license that you got, you don't need to look at GPL at all 17:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, if you select gpl, it should require you to provide a link to source 17:40:31 <andythenorth> I thought we were just providing an information society service, and the author was the distributor 17:40:31 <TrueBrain> in general, we should tell a bit more what those licenses mean 17:40:31 <andythenorth> but as we have a 'distribution license' 17:40:31 <andythenorth> that doesn't hold up 17:40:31 <TrueBrain> yeah, that setup won't work andythenorth 17:40:35 <TrueBrain> we are distributing 17:40:46 <TrueBrain> we are storing 17:40:46 <TrueBrain> we NEED a distribution license to operate 17:41:07 <TrueBrain> but again, in your reasoning, I can make a custom license that also won't work 17:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: with a clarification that it should be a link to the static version that you upload, not a moving development target 17:41:07 <TrueBrain> so there is a crack in your logic andythenorth :) 17:41:20 <andythenorth> I think that 'we need to be a distributor' could be argued differently, but I'm not super interested in trying to prove it :P 17:41:44 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The alternative would be to make BaNaNaS a big pile of redirect links to other people's websites 17:42:12 <FLHerne> Which would have interesting security problems 17:42:12 <FLHerne> And break the available-forever promise 17:42:15 <andythenorth> it's the available-forever that makes us a distributor 17:42:23 <TrueBrain> from what you say andythenorth , you deduce that because it is GPLv2, that license is the only license that also holds for us as distribution provider .. I argue: we are given another license that does allow to "break" GPLv2, by the copyright holder 17:42:23 <TrueBrain> this is, as far as I am aware, fully allowed 17:42:43 <FLHerne> Yeah 17:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree 17:42:52 <FLHerne> The issue is *only* when the uploader isn't the sole copyright holder 17:42:59 <andythenorth> no that's moot for us 17:43:01 <TrueBrain> but, the argument FLHerne started: are most authors aware they have to own EVERYTHING 17:43:11 <andythenorth> I wasn't 17:43:18 <TrueBrain> it is our duty to inform them of such, in my opinion 17:43:26 <andythenorth> I have been relying entirely on GPL v2 17:43:34 <TrueBrain> but we are not by law 17:43:35 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: It would be slightly better to fix it, really :-) 17:43:59 <FLHerne> Not legally, but from the perspective of being a convenient distribution platform 17:44:04 <TrueBrain> but reworking the license dropdown has been on my wishlist for a while now 17:44:21 <TrueBrain> as having the GPLv2 as first entry ... not the best move we made 17:44:54 <FLHerne> If the upload thingy required a source tarball for GPL uploads, it would be good 17:44:55 <andythenorth> it would in some cases be huge 17:44:55 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: GPLv2 is great for grf code 17:44:55 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: but you didn't explain to us why the GPLv2 license would win over our custom license? 17:44:55 <andythenorth> and would be a nice vector for malware 17:44:55 <FLHerne> Also, there's so much already under it 17:45:15 <FLHerne> Using a different license by default would divide the ecosystem 17:45:19 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: source tarballs, hmm .. I rather have the authors made aware they should link it 17:45:28 <TrueBrain> as ingame you cannot download the source tarball 17:45:28 <TrueBrain> so it should be in their README etc 17:45:28 <andythenorth> FLHerne strictly most of those licenses are probably invalid 17:45:31 <andythenorth> so it's likely moot 17:45:53 <andythenorth> all of my GPL v2 licenses are invalid I _think_ 17:45:53 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: If the author is the sole rights-holder, they don't need to link it 17:45:53 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: problem currently is that people picked GPLv2 because it was the top pick 17:45:53 <TrueBrain> we need some UX to avoid that 17:45:57 <milek7_> maybe to simplify things, it would make sense to remove license selection from bananas altogether? they can provide appropriate gpl/whatever license in archive itself 17:47:10 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: It renders GPLv2 pointless if they don't, but that's not a legal issue 17:47:10 <andythenorth> milek7_ that's an interesting idea 17:47:10 <TrueBrain> milek7_: yes, that works too; it just means a lot of people will distribute WITHOUT license .. which is worse 17:47:10 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: If the author *isn't* the sole rights-holder, which is true for most GPLv2 projects because code-sharing is the whole point... 17:47:10 <andythenorth> TrueBrain not sure how to show that GPL v2 'wins over' 17:47:14 <TrueBrain> hence making the link mandatory is correct for 90% of the cases FLHerne :) 17:47:14 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Then it doesn't matter whether the author distributes it, because they can't agree to the current BaNaNaS TOS in that case 17:47:18 <andythenorth> are we distributing single or dual-licensed? 17:47:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: do you understand the flaw in your argument you give us? GPLv2 wins, but you can dual license .. that makes little sense 17:47:45 <andythenorth> well are we distributing single or dual? 17:48:01 <TrueBrain> we supply the download under the license the author requested 17:48:01 <TrueBrain> WE do not distribute license 17:48:05 <TrueBrain> WE DO NOT distribute any license 17:48:19 <TrueBrain> just to repeat that part :P 17:48:19 <TrueBrain> we CANNOT distribute a license, as we are not any copyright holder 17:48:33 <TrueBrain> copyright holders have licenses 17:48:33 <andythenorth> I paste again 17:48:33 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS distributes under a single license, its TOS 17:48:33 <andythenorth> it's not my argument, it's FSF 17:48:44 <TrueBrain> you can paste all you want, but you fail to explain to me how dual licensing can work in the world you describe :) 17:49:13 <andythenorth> FLHerne ok so the text about GPL v2 is just an honest mistake and needs removed 17:49:13 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS *grants to its downloaders* a single license, the GPLv2 17:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we are distributing with bananas license, every downloader gets gpl license 17:49:13 <andythenorth> no this is just a weird linguistic coin trick 17:49:13 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The TOS permits that 17:49:27 <TrueBrain> we are distributing UNDER the BaNaNaS license 17:49:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No 17:49:27 <milek7_> bananas distributes on bananas distribution license, license field is basically author declaration about the contents 17:49:27 <TrueBrain> to be more clear and correct :) 17:49:27 <andythenorth> "watch my glove watch my glove, don't watch the coin" 17:49:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Licenses aren't attached to the code, they're attached to the code and two parties 17:49:53 <andythenorth> wat? 17:50:08 <TrueBrain> licenses are between parties, ofc 17:50:08 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Author -> BaNaNaS is TOS 17:50:08 <TrueBrain> for GPL, between the author and the rest of the world :P 17:50:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Author -> directly to users is GPLv2, or whatever else the author feels like 17:50:48 <andythenorth> ok so which bits of this are just made up? 17:50:48 <andythenorth> "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code." 17:50:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: okay, other example: I buy a CD in the store 17:50:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS -> downloaders is whatever the author selected 17:50:51 <andythenorth> it's not metaphors TrueBrain :) 17:50:51 <TrueBrain> the CD doesn't allow me to copy the music and distribute it, right? 17:50:51 <andythenorth> it's not that I don't understand 17:51:08 <andythenorth> it's that you're all wrong 17:51:09 <TrueBrain> and you FAIL to tell us why 17:51:09 <TrueBrain> so I am trying to help you there :) 17:51:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nothing, except that it's irrelevant 17:51:11 <andythenorth> are we distributing any GPL v2 content? 17:51:19 <TrueBrain> repeating yourself rarely helps in making your argument :) 17:51:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's no such thing as "GPL v2 content" 17:51:26 <andythenorth> GPL v2 programs 17:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bananas is still not distribution VIA the gpl 17:51:54 <TrueBrain> we have nothing to do with the GPL license, basically 17:51:54 <TrueBrain> how else do distribution platforms exist? 17:51:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I thought that, because I thought the author conveys the program to the recipient via bananas 17:52:10 <andythenorth> but we have a ToS that says we are a distributor 17:52:30 <andythenorth> and that's where you are all trying to do the coin trick 17:52:31 <andythenorth> are we a distributor or not? 17:52:31 <FLHerne> Yes 17:52:48 <andythenorth> and do we distribute any GPL v2 programs? 17:52:48 <andythenorth> any? 17:53:00 <TrueBrain> if you own a GPLv2 program, can you license it to someone else under another license? 17:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, bananas is a distributor. yes, bananas distributes GPL content, no, bananas is NOT relying on gpl to distribute the GPL content 17:53:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause that isn't a possible state 17:53:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It is 17:53:52 <TrueBrain> so dual-licensing is impossible andythenorth , is what you are saying? Sorry, I keep coming back to that, and you are not addressing that :P 17:53:52 <andythenorth> no dual-licensing is entirely possible 17:53:55 <TrueBrain> so how does that work? 17:53:57 <TrueBrain> like, ever, with GPLv2? 17:54:01 <andythenorth> what is not possible is distributing GPL v2 programs without complying with GPL v2 17:54:16 <TrueBrain> so dual-licensing of GPLv2 can only be done if they are compatible? 17:54:35 <andythenorth> dunno 17:54:36 <TrueBrain> that is what you imply 17:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what else do you think dual-licensing si? 17:54:42 <milek7_> I sort of understand andy 17:54:46 <milek7_> technically, file distributed from bananas IS NOT gpl licensed 17:54:58 <andythenorth> well why does it ship with the GPL v2 license then? 17:55:09 <TrueBrain> because you can ship different licenses? 17:55:10 <milek7_> but there's separate author declaration (between author and user, not bananas) that he shared that under GPL 17:55:50 <TrueBrain> I can have different license with you, than with milek7_ , than with FLHerne 17:55:50 <andythenorth> I wish I was wrong 17:55:50 <TrueBrain> and you can all see the license 17:55:50 <andythenorth> then I could draw a train 17:55:51 <TrueBrain> no andythenorth , you are not stating you know the truth 17:55:51 <TrueBrain> NONE of us are lawyers 17:55:51 <TrueBrain> MOST of this is uncontested in court 17:56:09 <TrueBrain> your interpretation is that this is not possible 17:56:12 <TrueBrain> don't mistake understanding for facts, please :) 17:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bananas distributes under the bananas license, and just happens to pass on the gpl licence between author and downloader 17:56:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause that would be a convenient coin trick if we could pull it off 17:57:03 <andythenorth> but unfortunately the GPL v2 anticipates that case and doesn't permit it 17:57:22 <andythenorth> if we were not a distributor, all would be fine 17:57:34 <TrueBrain> you keep saying you cannot license software with 2 licenses :P 17:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if bananas were passing on using the gpl, the licenses would be author-bananas and bananas-downloader, using the bananas license you now have author-bananas and author-downloader 17:58:09 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you can license it with 2 17:58:15 <andythenorth> but you don't get to just break one of them 17:58:34 <TrueBrain> and I would argue, they can 17:58:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: http://www.flherne.uk/files/licensedoodle.png 17:58:34 <TrueBrain> and here is in essence where we diverged 17:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody is breaking anything 17:58:46 <TrueBrain> you claim you have to comply with both licenses 17:58:46 <FLHerne> (I have literally zero artistic talent) 17:58:50 <TrueBrain> I claim you have to comply with either one 17:59:17 <TrueBrain> you say it is AND, I say it is XOR 17:59:17 <andythenorth> the GPL v2 is designed to prevent this pick-and-choose type affair 17:59:17 <TrueBrain> well, OR, but XOR sounds better :D 17:59:22 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: by USERS, yes 17:59:33 <TrueBrain> not by the copyright holder 17:59:36 <TrueBrain> who-ever uses the GPL software, he HAS to follow GPL 17:59:37 <TrueBrain> everyone agrees there 17:59:54 <andythenorth> and whoever distributes 17:59:54 <TrueBrain> but the copyright holder has freedom 17:59:54 <TrueBrain> the copyright holder can do what-ever-the-fuck-he-wants 17:59:55 <andythenorth> yes 18:00:26 <TrueBrain> including allowing us to distribute it :P 18:00:36 <andythenorth> yes 18:00:57 <andythenorth> including allowing us to distribute it to end users as GPL v2 18:00:57 <TrueBrain> so the only thing that -might- be invalid, is the author giving us this license, and say: but distribute it under GPLv2 18:00:57 <FLHerne> yes 18:01:11 <TrueBrain> but, that is really not our problem 18:01:37 <FLHerne> That bit's fine, it's just misleading to users 18:01:38 <andythenorth> oh I see 18:01:38 <andythenorth> ok 18:01:38 * andythenorth words 18:01:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Was my utterly terrible diagram any help? :D 18:02:14 <TrueBrain> I like that drawing FLHerne :) It sums it up nicely 18:02:14 <andythenorth> sort of 18:02:28 <andythenorth> so the relationship between the author and us is irrelevant for GPL v2 yes/no? 18:02:28 <andythenorth> because of ToS? 18:02:28 <FLHerne> yes 18:02:28 <TrueBrain> owh boy, spam incoming .... ( DorpsGek_III this time) 18:02:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot opened pull request #76: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7rd 18:02:51 <andythenorth> and when the user downloads from us, what license do they get? (assuming the program is GPL v2) 18:03:10 <TrueBrain> they are granted the binary under GPLv2 license 18:03:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot opened pull request #14: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oT 18:03:36 <andythenorth> ok so we are distributor of GPL v2 programs yes/no? 18:03:36 <TrueBrain> misleading question 18:03:48 <TrueBrain> from our perspective, the license is our TOS 18:03:53 <andythenorth> the license to the end user? 18:03:56 <TrueBrain> that is how we perceive the content 18:04:09 <milek7_> I think that's what's andy getting at? https://i.imgur.com/7EdhcLQ.png 18:04:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #48: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oc 18:04:37 <andythenorth> TrueBrain the ToS has no clauses that apply to end-user downloading? 18:04:57 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: E_DID_NOT_PARSE, can you be more specific? 18:05:13 <andythenorth> how does our Bananas ToS apply to end users who download a GPL v2 program from us? 18:05:22 <TrueBrain> the TOS is between authors and us 18:05:27 <andythenorth> right 18:05:27 <TrueBrain> not between us and end-users 18:05:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #36: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oV 18:05:36 <andythenorth> so what's the license between us and end-users who have downloaded? 18:05:49 <TrueBrain> what-ever the author asked us it to be 18:05:58 <andythenorth> ok 18:06:09 <andythenorth> and sometimes that license is GPL v2? 18:06:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #38: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oH 18:06:28 <TrueBrain> you can try to lure us again and again in the same question: from our perspective, we use our TOS to distribute 18:06:29 <TrueBrain> not GPLv2 18:06:49 <TrueBrain> one can debate if that is allowed or not, but that would be a problem of the author, not of us as platform 18:07:01 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not helping you fix all those pyup PRs :p 18:07:04 <andythenorth> so we aren't distributing any GPL v2 programs? 18:07:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: > and sometimes that license is GPL v2? <-- yes 18:07:11 <TrueBrain> LordAro: FINNNNEEEEEE :P 18:07:20 <andythenorth> did anyone draw my train yet 18:07:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: And in that case, the end users being granted the license are bound by GPLv2 18:07:42 <TrueBrain> no, because what you are saying also means: if you license under GPLv2, any other license you provide has to be compatible 18:07:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: BaNaNaS isn't, because it's granting the license 18:08:19 <andythenorth> FLHerne that would be a sustainable argument I think 18:08:31 <andythenorth> so that would just leave the question, why does Bananas violate the GPL v2? 18:08:36 <andythenorth> and are we remedying it? 18:08:47 <TrueBrain> we are not violating GPLv2 18:08:51 <TrueBrain> authors might 18:08:53 <TrueBrain> we are not 18:09:12 <andythenorth> I admire your sticking to this position 18:09:21 <andythenorth> it is much the better position 18:09:29 <TrueBrain> you do know those remarks are ... well ... mostly used to put people down 18:09:32 <TrueBrain> :P 18:10:02 <TrueBrain> I am surprised however that you would see BaNaNaS working without it being a distribution platform 18:10:14 <andythenorth> in a public logged channel, if we are having a specific plan to not comply with GPL v2, we should stick to our guns about why 18:10:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #21: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7Kn 18:10:34 <TrueBrain> again, we are complying with GPLv2 18:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: whatever text is in the GPL only applies if you use the GPL terms to distribute the GPL'ed program 18:10:37 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I thought it was like a service, e.g. like email etc 18:10:43 <TrueBrain> you keep saying we are not, and I don't like that in public channels :D 18:10:44 <LordAro> TrueBrain: how did you know they were coming, ooi? 18:10:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause please, re-read that sentence 18:10:55 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I see all pushes to all repositories :) 18:11:06 <andythenorth> in what way can you not use the GPL terms to distribute the GPL'ed program? :o 18:11:08 <TrueBrain> DorpsGek_III is a bit more verbose to me :P 18:11:12 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #15: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7KR 18:11:13 <LordAro> aha 18:11:24 <LordAro> so the pushes happen noticably before the PRs are made? 18:11:33 <LordAro> i'd have thought they would be effectively instant 18:11:36 <TrueBrain> I have 41 unread messages in that channel :P 18:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we are using the bananas TOS to distribute the GPL'ed program. 18:11:48 <TrueBrain> no, the bot pushes 1 change per time .. 18:11:58 <LordAro> ah right 18:12:19 * andythenorth might actually draw the train 18:12:27 <TrueBrain> I am surprised that in andythenorth 's world it is impossible that we use another license than the content we publish .. I guess he has issues with that .. and I get what he is coming from there .. but wouldn't that make any distribution platform impossible? 18:12:51 <andythenorth> I am just taking a strictly literal, naive interpretation of GPL v2 text 18:13:09 <TrueBrain> yes, you do, and you keep failing to explain why it would hold for OUR distribution under ANOTHER license 18:13:14 <andythenorth> words like 'distribute' and 'must' do not seem hard to understand 18:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: again, it doesn't matter what the text of the GPL is, as long as bananas doesn't use it to distribute the program 18:13:40 <TrueBrain> what if someone dual-licenses BSD and GPLv2? 18:13:46 <milek7_> https://i.imgur.com/0kzDND0.png 18:13:51 <TrueBrain> we can distribute under BSD, and not under GPLv2? Boom? 18:14:01 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the only cases of "http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=" left are inside comments now 18:14:12 <TrueBrain> frosch123: \o/ \o/ 18:14:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause at what point does the program under bananas ToS become back under GPL v2? 18:14:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you perceive licenses in a funny way :) 18:14:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause can we agree that if the end user receives it under GPL v2, at some point GPL v2 must be applied? 18:14:52 <TrueBrain> you don't receive licenses 18:15:01 <TrueBrain> a copyright holder makes a license between two parties: him and someone on the other end 18:15:28 <andythenorth> you do receive the GPL v2 18:15:34 <andythenorth> it's in the license text 18:15:38 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what if all people uploading under GPLv2 changed their LICENSE file with a header on top: OPENTTD IS ALLOWED TO DISTRIBUTE THIS FREELY WITHOUT SOURCE 18:15:38 <TrueBrain> would that solve your issue? 18:15:55 <andythenorth> no 18:15:55 <TrueBrain> why not? 18:15:55 <TrueBrain> it is in the same license 18:16:05 <TrueBrain> so it is not GPLv2, but GPLv2+something 18:16:14 <andythenorth> oh I see a way 18:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the user doesn't even need to agree to the GPL until he plans to re-distribute it, but that's a different topic 18:16:24 <andythenorth> my way is an alternative stupid coin trick 18:16:45 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 18:16:59 <andythenorth> hmm nvm, doesn't work 18:17:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you didn't explain your "no" 18:17:12 <TrueBrain> and I am going somewhere with this example ;) 18:17:21 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 18:17:23 <TrueBrain> I can write any license text I want, right? So I can simply write: GPLv2, but OpenTTD is exempt 18:17:30 <TrueBrain> that is fine, not? 18:17:34 <andythenorth> sorry, I got lost in a get-out-of-jail idea 18:17:39 <TrueBrain> :P 18:17:47 <TrueBrain> we don't need it, as we already have it, but that is okay :) 18:18:08 <TrueBrain> so if everyone would change their LICENSE file, you would agree it is fine to use it like that, right? 18:18:49 <TrueBrain> (ironically, some distribution platforms have asked this btw; to explicitly except them from the license conditions) 18:18:59 <longtomjr> Legal discussion, what happened? 18:19:17 <TrueBrain> the thing here is the explicit vs the implicit andythenorth .. licenses don't have to be explicit 18:19:38 <TrueBrain> (well, explicit for the public) 18:19:49 <TrueBrain> lol .. wrong way of using explicit :D 18:19:49 <andythenorth> the 'no' is based on "You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License." 18:19:55 <TrueBrain> yes .. we modified the license 18:20:03 <TrueBrain> the license now says: EXCEPT FOR OPENTTD 18:20:03 <TrueBrain> nothing wrong with that, is it? 18:20:23 <TrueBrain> GPLv2 is not some magic thing that cannot be modified .. I am free to alter the text how-ever I want .. it is not GPLv2, sure, but the conditions still apply 18:20:42 <FLHerne> http://www.flherne.uk/files/better_license_doodle.png 18:20:44 <andythenorth> probably fine, but is it the best remedy? 18:20:52 <TrueBrain> no no, I am not trying to remedy anything 18:21:01 <TrueBrain> I am pointing out: you can observe our TOS as being on top of the LICENSE file 18:21:03 <TrueBrain> from our perspective 18:21:38 <TrueBrain> the copyright holder changed the "total" LICENSE file to include that we can distribute it under our TOS 18:21:38 <TrueBrain> so it is not explicit in the LICENSE file 18:21:38 <TrueBrain> although we could do that 18:21:39 <TrueBrain> but it is there nevertheless 18:21:54 <TrueBrain> hence, your argument fails there 18:22:08 <TrueBrain> (as we don't have to announce our distribution license to the end-user, basically) 18:22:11 <andythenorth> oof this fun argument is keeping me away from my intent :P 18:22:17 <andythenorth> which was to release a new Iron Horse on bananas 18:22:23 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 18:22:28 <TrueBrain> so another way to observe this: we get the license from the author with GPLv2 + a big header indicate what is written in our TOS 18:22:29 <andythenorth> which I can't do legally :P 18:22:37 <TrueBrain> before we ship it to the end-user, we stripped our TOS header 18:22:39 <TrueBrain> that is what "legally" is going on 18:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how anyone is actually moving in this discussion 18:23:05 <andythenorth> I moved a bit 18:23:10 <TrueBrain> I would like to think I just approached this in a novel way Eddi|zuHause 18:23:21 <andythenorth> I started from it's "all fine, GPL v2" allows this 18:23:21 <andythenorth> then FLHerne proved I was wrong 18:23:40 <FLHerne> Sorry :-( 18:23:50 <TrueBrain> as I hope I now showed andythenorth that it is fine to work with licenses like that 18:24:10 <andythenorth> I already knew that I was distributing my grfs illegally TBH 18:24:10 <TrueBrain> the point he basically argues with, is if we should show that "combined" LICENSE file or not ;) 18:24:49 <andythenorth> TrueBrain no, the point is whether we can evade being a 'distributor' in the sense GPL v2 intends 18:24:49 <TrueBrain> the thing is .. that would only fuzz the waters for 99% of the public 18:24:49 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no; that is not what we try to do 18:24:57 <TrueBrain> we extended the license with some exceptions 18:25:13 <TrueBrain> so we are not trying to evade anything 18:25:26 <TrueBrain> we legally have the rights to do what we do :) 18:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no way for bananas not to count as a distributor 18:25:36 <TrueBrain> really, absolutely no way :) 18:25:39 <andythenorth> I can't see a way 18:25:45 <TrueBrain> we never intended not to be :P 18:25:53 <TrueBrain> being a distributor helps for a lot of things 18:25:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's no way to evade being a distributor without breaking the intended purposes of Bananas 18:26:02 <andythenorth> the "it's like email" case would never stack up if we want to have rights to keep the content 18:26:06 <TrueBrain> basically .. "comply with any DMCA request, and you can't be sued" 18:26:09 <TrueBrain> a good place to sit :P 18:26:44 <andythenorth> so we're definitely not accidentally a publisher, right? 18:26:58 <andythenorth> being a publisher would be undesirable 18:26:59 <TrueBrain> but you try to argue that because we are a distributor, we have to comply with GPLv2, while we argue: our license is an extension to GPLv2, if you want to look at it from that point :) 18:27:06 <TrueBrain> how would we be a publisher? :D 18:27:25 <andythenorth> not 18:27:25 <TrueBrain> we really are a distribution platform 18:27:36 <TrueBrain> we store and make available for download 18:27:44 <andythenorth> ok so the argument is we extend GPL v2? 18:27:59 <TrueBrain> well, legally we don't do it that way, but it is a fine way to look at it 18:28:00 <TrueBrain> just see our TOS being on top of LICENSE 18:28:15 <TrueBrain> and call it GPLv2+BaNaNaS excempt 18:28:20 <TrueBrain> for all I care :P 18:28:20 <andythenorth> I tend to agree, but I think we're at cross purposes about the problem 18:28:26 <FLHerne> That sounds like a confusing way to describe it, but eh 18:28:27 <andythenorth> shall we stop? 18:28:42 <FLHerne> Sure 18:28:42 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I think it is pretty elegant, as nobody could deny that would be a valid license :) 18:28:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did my revised, slightly-less-shit diagram help? :p 18:28:54 <TrueBrain> mainly as they exist .. "GPLv2 unless you are a nuclear powerplant" 18:29:46 <TrueBrain> if you are a nuclear powerplant: STOP USING OUR SOFTWARE NOW 18:29:47 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: yeah, but people could deny that it describes the actual situation 18:29:47 <TrueBrain> people can deny a lot of things :P 18:29:47 <TrueBrain> fine .. I was trying to stop running the circles we were doing 18:29:52 <FLHerne> Maybe we should just stop 18:29:57 <andythenorth> I would just stop 18:30:10 * FLHerne just stops 18:30:10 <andythenorth> also FLHerne sorry I said you had misread the GPL 18:30:10 <andythenorth> you were correct 18:30:17 <andythenorth> my recollection was all wrong :P 18:30:23 <FLHerne> ok thanks :-) 18:30:26 <milek7_> TrueBrain: I don't think it is realistic to make blanket statement as "X and you can't be sued" 18:30:33 <milek7_> as you can always be sued :P 18:30:42 <TrueBrain> milek7_: everything in context 18:30:45 <milek7_> or things like viacom v. youtube wouldn't happen etc. 18:31:15 <TrueBrain> as if you go that road, you cannot make any statement 18:31:16 <TrueBrain> lawyers will find a way to proof you wrong 18:32:16 <andythenorth> law is rarely 0 and 1 18:32:16 <TrueBrain> most of this never seen court 18:32:21 <TrueBrain> which makes most of this an opinion 18:32:24 <TrueBrain> more than a fact 18:33:59 <longtomjr> If there is a lawyer somewhere, that decides to make a case against Openttd because of copyright, there will have to probably be notices and cease and desist before there is a threat. IANAL 18:34:38 <TrueBrain> the discussion was not about OpenTTD, but about BaNaNaS :) 18:34:47 <FLHerne> Anyway, sorry for provoking the long and somewhat-loopy argument 18:35:09 <FLHerne> Do we need one about OpenTTD? 18:35:10 <TrueBrain> this channel has never been this active 18:35:10 <TrueBrain> not sure what you are sorry about :P 18:35:22 * FLHerne has some ideas about the definition of reverse-engineering too :-) 18:35:57 <longtomjr> Have we figured out the color of the shed yet, or should we start that discussion. 18:35:57 <andythenorth> FLHerne it was co-incidental timing, I need to make a written offer for all the grfs and include it 18:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> longtomjr: if there ever is a cease and desist letter against openttd, the project will be shut down 18:35:57 <andythenorth> probably in readme I guess 18:35:57 <FLHerne> cornflower blue 18:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> longtomjr: there is no way we can actually fight that 18:36:22 <TrueBrain> what FLHerne says 18:36:42 <longtomjr> Eddi|zuHause, yep probably, or we have to get someone like the fsf to take the case if they are interested. 18:37:07 <longtomjr> Anyways, lets get back to shedds. 18:37:45 <TrueBrain> the one good thing about breaking any license of any kind .. you need someone who is willing to sue first 18:37:45 <TrueBrain> so I come back again: we did our best with everything we did to comply and follow the rules as much as we understand them 18:38:06 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hm, I think I was actually wrong :p 18:38:16 <TrueBrain> no, you said you were going to stop :P 18:38:17 <TrueBrain> :D 18:39:01 <frosch123> how many ships did you all draw during the discussion? 18:39:17 <longtomjr> I decorated one station 18:39:33 <longtomjr> but I joined late, and my station still looks bad 18:39:39 <longtomjr> so no ships 18:39:51 <FLHerne> The GPL does allow redistribution of unmodified binary versions without providing the source, but only non-commercially and if you tell people where the person you got it from said the source was 18:40:28 <FLHerne> BaNaNaS doesn't comply with that last bit anyway, so it's irrelevant to most of this discussion 18:42:47 * FLHerne goes back to being confused at nmlc 18:52:48 <andythenorth> frosch123 0 18:54:46 <andythenorth> FLHerne (putting aside previous discussion) the problem is 95% with the authors not providing the written offer 18:55:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think the more fundamental issue is with the conflict with non-sole-authors and the ToS 18:55:43 <andythenorth> I am going to entirely not pay attention to that :) 18:55:52 <FLHerne> Frankly, the 'written offer' thing is cosmetic trivia that no-one cares about 18:56:18 <andythenorth> it seems naive from 30 years later 18:56:30 <FLHerne> Including a GPL license makes it clear that the source exists, and it's usually easy to find 18:56:30 <andythenorth> like when I have commercial contracts which have to have a seal 18:56:43 <andythenorth> or that fax is legal, but email transmission isn't :P 18:57:39 <FLHerne> Whereas the ToS issue does actually breach the license in a way that breaks the intent 18:57:57 <FLHerne> But tbh, in that case the source is *still* usually available somewhere 18:58:18 <FLHerne> So I still doubt anyone cares 18:58:59 * andythenorth is concerned about GPL notices in source files right now 18:58:59 <andythenorth> I removed them all from my grfs 18:59:07 <andythenorth> but GPL v2 is hazy on whether they are needed 18:59:14 <FLHerne> I think that's another case of "who the hell cares?" 18:59:41 <andythenorth> did you never want 10/10 on your school spelling test? :P 19:00:06 <andythenorth> GPL v2 'how to' says every source file must have them 19:00:06 <andythenorth> but the license, the legal text, does not 19:00:06 <FLHerne> I used to use a one-line header 19:00:17 <FLHerne> Then someone from the FSF told me that was bad and I should use the full one 19:00:25 <FLHerne> So I stopped using one at all 19:00:45 <andythenorth> I was a big fan of GPL 19:00:45 <FLHerne> I'm pretty sure it doesn't breach the license not to 19:00:45 <andythenorth> but I am starting to find it a bit clown shoes 19:00:46 <FLHerne> It's ok 19:01:05 <andythenorth> " It is safest to attach them to the start of each source file to most effectively convey the exclusion of warranty; and each file should have at least the "copyright" line and a pointer to where the full notice is found. 19:01:13 <andythenorth> 'safest' and 'should' are not very legally robust 19:01:32 <FLHerne> In a way, it's a product of the '90s when large companies definitely would just fork and start closed-source projects based on the same code 19:01:39 <FLHerne> If you used BSD/MIT 19:03:16 <FLHerne> These days, Amazon/Google/Facebook/Intel/etc. have got the hang of contributing to public projects, so you can get away with non-copyleft most of the time 19:03:52 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it's just to stop people copying the code and claiming not to have seen the license 19:03:56 <FLHerne> But that defence wouldn't stand up in court anyway 19:04:29 <TrueBrain> can you make divs appears/disappears based on a combobox selection? (CSS-only if possible?) 19:04:37 <andythenorth> it's moderately annoying that GPL FAQs have no boilerplate example for 'written offer' 19:05:18 <andythenorth> TrueBrain in my world that requires JS, but maybe there's more modern css selectors now 19:05:18 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Doesn't the old openttd.org downloads page have that? 19:05:18 <FLHerne> Uses some JS though 19:06:18 <FLHerne> https://www.openttd.org/static/js/download.js 19:06:49 <TrueBrain> yeah, was hoping to avoid a bit of javascript 19:06:49 <TrueBrain> I think it can be done with CSS these days 19:07:14 <FLHerne> I'd like to know how if so :-) 19:07:53 <FLHerne> Oh, I have an idea 19:08:22 <FLHerne> No 19:08:56 <FLHerne> I was thinking sibling selectors and something with option::selected ~ whatever 19:09:08 <FLHerne> But the divs won't be siblings of the options 19:09:25 <andythenorth> TrueBrain ? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31619048/is-there-a-css-selector-to-match-a-option-value-of-the-select-tag/31619080 19:09:49 <andythenorth> oh that only styles the option I guess 19:10:27 <FLHerne> I didn't read the question as being that 19:10:27 <andythenorth> hmm 19:10:27 <FLHerne> There's no parent-of selector for good reasons 19:10:27 <FLHerne> No-one wants their CSS to have infinite loops 19:10:48 <FLHerne> Well, I'm sure someone would be thrilled to have Turing-complete CSS 19:11:10 * andythenorth finds example written offers 19:11:10 <andythenorth> https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E20451_01/html/E28370/glzdq.html 19:11:34 <andythenorth> also https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19474-01/html/E28359/glnqt.html 19:12:00 <andythenorth> interestingly GPL v2 FAQs say that a snail-mail physical media option is mandatory 19:12:33 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If anyone asks, print it out and send it to them :p 19:12:41 <FLHerne> It would be funny 19:13:16 <frosch123> 7k8 errors, i forgot where i started... is that 75% done? 19:14:03 <TrueBrain> 28k yesterday :P 19:14:03 <TrueBrain> so getting smaler :D 19:16:00 <andythenorth> hmm other authors seem to think a url is sufficient as a written offer 19:16:18 <andythenorth> load of words here https://www.busybox.net/license.html 19:16:29 <andythenorth> blah blah stuff 19:16:36 <andythenorth> "3(b) bundle a written offer good for three years to provide that source upon request. (These days this is often a URL)." 19:17:11 <andythenorth> so maybe either in the readme, and/or in the online docs 19:17:36 <andythenorth> so close, but so far away :P https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/2.8.0/readme.txt 19:17:58 <andythenorth> the docs linked there are the wrong ones :P 19:18:51 <andythenorth> hmm Iron Horse source is smaller than the grf, maybe we could just put source on bananas :P 19:19:08 <andythenorth> FSF say the source has to be the exact version for the binary, not newer, not older 19:19:35 * andythenorth envisages explaining "git co [tag]" to a future court 19:19:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Readme should be good 19:19:54 <FLHerne> I don't think separate online docs is technically sufficient 19:27:34 <andythenorth> also I defeated my own argument from earlier, TB is right 19:28:02 <andythenorth> I was sure we had it sorted when the Russian guy was arguing 19:28:31 <andythenorth> we did 19:31:07 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: can't be done with CSS indeed :( Bah 19:32:48 <FLHerne> Wait, have we run out of disagreements? 19:32:58 <FLHerne> quick, we need more 19:34:38 <andythenorth> we can disagree about whether to close PRs? 19:34:38 <andythenorth> if they're aging? 19:37:42 <TrueBrain> "Note: if you pick GPL v2, GPL v3 or LGPL v2.1, you are obligated to also make your source code available. Please make sure either the "Project site" points to your source code or that the location to your source code is in the description. " 19:37:44 <FLHerne> Oh, that 19:37:45 <TrueBrain> any additions? 19:37:49 <FLHerne> We settled that, you're wrong 19:37:58 <FLHerne> (:p) 19:39:09 <TrueBrain> funny, releasing scenarios under GPL .. now that is interesting :D 19:39:25 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: "You cannot upload grfs to BaNaNaS if they use code from another author under a GPL variant and they have not given separate permission" 19:39:30 <FLHerne> bad wording 19:39:46 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: is that true if you link the source, still? 19:40:20 <andythenorth> TrueBrain readme would also be valid, if provided 19:40:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: harder for us to validate; so I wanted to keep it a bit more strict if possible 19:40:33 <TrueBrain> but I guess 19:40:38 <FLHerne> "If your grf includes code written by another author that you have used under GPL terms, you cannot upload it to BaNaNaS without separate permission from that author" 19:40:46 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I think so :-/ 19:41:16 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: why? As if they provide the source link, they are allowed to distribute it, not? 19:41:26 <TrueBrain> (honest question, to be clear) 19:41:36 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: They can, but only under GPL or a compatible license 19:41:36 <TrueBrain> ofc 19:41:47 <FLHerne> i.e. not under BaNaNaS-ToS 19:41:50 <andythenorth> bananas is at that point compatible (I think the argument goes) 19:42:02 <TrueBrain> GPL allows licensing with compatible license 19:42:03 <TrueBrain> for those cases, we are compatible, not? 19:42:03 <andythenorth> bananas doesn't remove any GPL rights 19:42:03 <FLHerne> Because that doesn't enforce the recipient (BaNaNaS) provide the source etc 19:42:21 <andythenorth> I figured that out 19:42:21 <TrueBrain> that is why I want to add these two lines above 19:42:28 <TrueBrain> that does force them to link the source 19:42:48 <TrueBrain> wouldn't that resolve this whole situation? 19:42:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne if author doesn't provide the written offer for source, they haven't validly licensed it under GPL v2 19:42:54 <andythenorth> so GPL v2 cannot be enforced 19:43:13 <andythenorth> if they provide a full GPL v2 license, then they can also accept Bananas 19:43:35 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Did you see http://www.flherne.uk/files/better_license_doodle.png ? 19:43:58 <FLHerne> The case I think is a problem is on the right 19:44:12 *** planetmaker has quit IRC 19:44:25 <TrueBrain> that would claim our ToS would violate GPLv2, even if there is a source link? 19:44:27 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I believe BaNaNaS could fall back on clause 3 (b) of the GPLv2 here 19:44:33 <FLHerne> But it would need a ToS change 19:44:47 <andythenorth> it falls back on clause 3 (c) 19:45:04 <FLHerne> Sorry, I meant 3(c) 19:45:05 <TrueBrain> elaborate? 19:45:07 <andythenorth> what's the proposed ToS change? 19:45:20 <andythenorth> something something 'valid license'? 19:46:10 <FLHerne> Hm, no, perhaps it's already sufficient 19:46:22 <TrueBrain> as far as I understand the argument, it is about not linking the source .. otherwise our ToS should be GPLv2 compatible, I hope :P 19:46:38 <andythenorth> I think it's fine, and I would be -0.5 on trying to armchair lawyer extra rigour 19:46:38 <FLHerne> To ensure it stays inline with 3(c), it needs to prohibit BaNaNaS from distributing it with the source link or license removed 19:46:39 <andythenorth> FLHerne no it doesn't :) 19:46:53 <michi_cc> To chime in here, I'd say that with the Bananas TOS/license right now the case on the right is indeed a problem. 19:46:53 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that is kinda implied, so I am fine with that 19:47:23 <FLHerne> But I *think* the list of cases in (6) of the ToS, which excludes changing those files, is sufficient 19:47:34 <michi_cc> If you've used stuff solely under GPL, you are not at liberty to re-license it under any random other license unless it is explicitly compatible. 19:47:50 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: yeah, it is really "repackage" for a reason :) 19:48:16 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: honestly, I have no problem adding an entry in the ToS making it explicit that you supply the source when you use GPL as license 19:48:30 <michi_cc> And the whole written offer thing from GPL really is a can of worms as it can be interpreted as "written" in the legal sense with mostly means physically written. 19:48:51 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: in many EU countries they agree'd that "written" can also be email, these days :) 19:48:51 <FLHerne> michi_cc: We had that discussion a few lines up :p 19:48:51 <TrueBrain> they are progressingggggggggggg 19:49:03 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I don't think us requiring offer for source legally required, but would head off certain issues 19:49:19 *** ^Spike^ has quit IRC 19:49:19 *** Hirundo has quit IRC 19:49:19 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 19:49:19 *** Yexo has quit IRC 19:49:20 *** Osai has quit IRC 19:49:20 *** Ammler has quit IRC 19:49:20 *** avdg has quit IRC 19:49:20 *** XeryusTC has quit IRC 19:49:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the whole TOS is (mostly) not build for legal reasons, but more for people to understand what we expect of them, honestly :) 19:50:11 <andythenorth> "something something *you* comply with the license you choose" 19:50:33 * andythenorth against armchair lawyering though 19:50:33 <FLHerne> michi_cc: I think we just barely squeeze through with the "offer of source" in the README being compatible with GPL under 3(c), so it doesn't need to be relicensed 19:50:33 *** V453000 has quit IRC 19:50:44 <FLHerne> Of course, this entirely contradicts my previous position 19:51:07 <andythenorth> "its all fine" 19:51:12 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: This is one of those really nice international problem areas. German law for example knows "Schriftform" and "Textform", where only Textform can be email. 19:51:17 <FLHerne> This seems like a "have it both ways" interpretation 19:51:20 <longtomjr> did openttdcoop.org's IRC just go down? 19:51:45 <andythenorth> FLHerne none of my argument was about our ToS vs GPL v2 19:51:56 <michi_cc> Which means for an english law text, there's ample ways to argue how to translate words :) 19:52:06 <andythenorth> my entire argument was that we're not complying with GPL v2 in multiple cases, but I now see what that's moot 19:52:13 <andythenorth> what / why /s 19:52:21 <longtomjr> Anyways, I am off for the evening, good luck 19:52:24 *** V453000 has joined #openttd 19:52:42 <FLHerne> michi_cc: tbh, I can't imagine that anyone would ever argue that a NewGRF should come with a paper source offer 19:53:00 <FLHerne> You'd have to send your postal address when applying to download it 19:53:00 <andythenorth> it would be highly jurisdictional I think 19:53:10 <andythenorth> oh FLHerne that would trigger GDPR :D 19:53:12 <andythenorth> lol 19:53:31 <michi_cc> Just the make sure, it is definitely not any problem from the Bananas side of view, but might be one of the author/uploader. 19:53:34 <FLHerne> The law does pay *some* attention to common sense and usage 19:53:50 <FLHerne> Right 19:54:12 <TrueBrain> can I suggest this TOS change: 19:54:13 <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/1b9735b6d266b8420910946a52aaa781 19:54:16 <TrueBrain> (only 1) is changed) 19:54:18 <FLHerne> (if you mailed grf collections to people on CDs then yes, sure) 19:54:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I think that's good armchair lawyering 19:55:03 <FLHerne> nitpick: "content which comply with" <- pick a tense/plural :p 19:55:22 <TrueBrain> please correct rather than point out 19:55:25 <FLHerne> Otherwise I like it 19:55:34 <TrueBrain> (as in, say what you want it to be, not where there is an error :D) 19:55:52 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd 19:55:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o planetmaker 19:55:55 <FLHerne> "You will only upload content that complies with license agreements:" ? 19:56:02 <TrueBrain> ah .. isn't content plural? 19:56:35 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd 19:57:01 <FLHerne> It is, but it's non-countable :p 19:57:23 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd 19:57:23 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 19:57:24 <TrueBrain> weird language :P 19:57:35 * FLHerne tries to figure out grammar enough to explain it coherently 19:57:39 <FLHerne> (assuming that's even possible) 19:57:55 *** avdg has joined #openttd 19:59:30 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd 19:59:40 *** Osai has joined #openttd 19:59:40 *** Ammler has joined #openttd 20:00:07 <FLHerne> Because 'content' is a non-countable noun, i.e. you can have "some content" but not "five content", it behaves as if it's singular in most sentences 20:00:17 <FLHerne> For some reason 20:00:20 <andythenorth> I could not have explained that 20:01:06 *** longtomjr has quit IRC 20:02:19 *** tokai has joined #openttd 20:02:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 20:02:22 <FLHerne> (On the same lines, you can have less content but not fewer content, which is a popular distinction for pedants) 20:03:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain opened pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT7yb 20:03:26 <TrueBrain> see the individual commit for the changes (first commit copies 1.3 to 1.4) 20:03:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I would like your approval on this if you don't mind terribly :) 20:04:02 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: first commit title -- typo should be 'guidelines' 20:04:27 <TrueBrain> nice catch :) 20:04:29 *** planetmaker has quit IRC 20:04:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidelines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT7yb 20:05:30 <TrueBrain> ironically, this should also solve andythenorth's argument :P 20:05:30 *** ^Spike^ has quit IRC 20:05:30 <andythenorth> it does 20:05:57 <TrueBrain> ignoring if it was a valid argument, many things can be solved by making it more clear to the user in the first place :) 20:06:02 <frosch123> aw, that's what you needed the div-hiding for :p i was wondering about wiki magic 20:06:14 <andythenorth> it was the best argument 20:06:29 <FLHerne> Oh, hang on 20:06:29 <TrueBrain> yeah, I wanted the p only show up when you selected GPL stuff frosch123 :) 20:06:31 <andythenorth> the most beautiful argument, made by the very best people 20:06:40 <andythenorth> 4 more years 20:06:53 <TrueBrain> 2 more days ... I am so curious 20:06:53 *** avdg has quit IRC 20:06:53 <FLHerne> I don't think this works for GPLv3 :-( 20:07:16 *** XeryusTC has quit IRC 20:07:16 *** V453000 has quit IRC 20:07:16 <TrueBrain> GPLv3 was more relaxed with source, not? 20:07:16 <andythenorth> FLHerne based on license, or FAQs? 20:07:18 <FLHerne> The equivalent is section 6 (c), but that only applies if you received the binary copy in physical form 20:07:32 <FLHerne> (and 'occasionally', whatever that means in legalese) 20:07:46 <TrueBrain> it has been well established that "supply source" these days is a link to GitHub, tbh 20:08:15 * andythenorth reads 20:08:43 <FLHerne> Oh, 6 (d) might cover it 20:08:48 <andythenorth> 6 (d) seems fine 20:08:56 <andythenorth> seems to anticipate all the relevant cases 20:08:57 <FLHerne> "If the place to copy the object code is a network server, the Corresponding Source may be on a different server (operated by you or a third party) that supports equivalent copying facilities, provided you maintain clear directions next to the object code saying where to find the Corresponding Source. Regardless of what server hosts the Corresponding Source, you remain obligated to ensure that it is available for as long as needed to satisfy these requirements." 20:09:21 <FLHerne> The last bit may be an issue 20:09:21 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 20:09:38 <FLHerne> i.e. if grf authors' source links break, BaNaNaS is obliged to take down the content 20:09:41 * andythenorth reads more 20:09:41 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I am fine with that, honestly 20:09:41 <andythenorth> v3 uses 'convey' more 20:10:03 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: well, more strict: the author is obligated to remove the content from BaNaNaS :) 20:10:07 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: But then it breaks the "all BaNaNaS-downloaded content will always be available" promise to users 20:10:29 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: No, because BaNaNaS is the distributing party here 20:10:31 <TrueBrain> violations of any kind are exempt from that statement :P 20:10:55 <TrueBrain> if someone violate license, it will be removed, also for savegames 20:10:55 <FLHerne> (and we can't rely on the ToS-as-license-to-distribute, because then we have the other issue) 20:11:14 *** Osai has quit IRC 20:11:33 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: yeah, the same argument goes here: the author is responsible for providing us with correct information; they licensed us, if they were not allowed, they are to blame 20:11:34 <TrueBrain> we add these statements to make them aware of that duty 20:11:38 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: No 20:12:11 <FLHerne> 6 (d) explicitly states that it's our problem even if a third-party hosted it 20:12:15 <andythenorth> yes that's some poor drafting right there 20:12:15 <TrueBrain> yes, but we had this talk :D They give us a distribution license 20:12:24 <TrueBrain> if they are allowed to do that or not, is up to them 20:12:26 <TrueBrain> if they follow GPLv3 20:12:28 <TrueBrain> we are compatible 20:12:32 <TrueBrain> and as such, there is no problem 20:12:32 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: We had that, but then you have the GPL incompatibility 20:12:53 <TrueBrain> if they fail to provide the source, they are not GPLv3 20:12:54 *** Yexo has quit IRC 20:13:02 <TrueBrain> so as soon as someone tells us: this is not correct 20:13:09 <TrueBrain> we remove the content 20:13:14 <TrueBrain> (well, we give the author some time to restore, ofc) 20:13:14 <andythenorth> "you remain obligated to ensure that it is available for as long as needed to satisfy these requirements" 20:13:14 <FLHerne> I can see your argument, but in the long run that seems like a practical issue 20:13:33 <andythenorth> we can delegate the obligation 20:13:33 <andythenorth> the author has to make the source available 20:13:33 <andythenorth> they're obligated 20:13:43 <FLHerne> If openttdcoop breaks, say, or even the domain changes 20:13:43 <andythenorth> so it chains 20:13:43 <TrueBrain> well, I can go one step further: with this new TOS, they are in violation of our TOS 20:13:43 <andythenorth> legal shit flows uphill 20:14:01 <FLHerne> The source doesn't only have to be available somewhere, but at the original URL 20:14:02 <andythenorth> are we required to remedy somebody else's GPL violation? 20:14:14 <andythenorth> that would be an interesting court case 20:14:14 <FLHerne> In theory you'd have to take down about half the grfs :p 20:14:37 <TrueBrain> this is what makes these statements in GPL impracticel 20:14:37 <TrueBrain> and as such, I am more worried to comply with the intent 20:14:37 <TrueBrain> more than the strict letter 20:14:54 <andythenorth> it's really quite poor drafting 20:15:06 <TrueBrain> the biggest issue you rightfully pointed out (although I am still not sure that was your initial argument :D), if someone uploads a derived work, he might violate the license without knowing 20:15:14 <FLHerne> tbh, I think the ideal solution intent-wise would be for BaNaNaS to have a "download source" button for each grf version... 20:15:15 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I have no clue what that means (lacking the english understanding) 20:15:26 <FLHerne> There are obvious practical issues with that idea though 20:15:26 <andythenorth> GPL increasingly reminds of When I Tried To Write Legal Agreements, 20 years ago 20:15:27 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: which is not managable, honestly 20:15:36 <andythenorth> like employment contracts and business contracts and shit 20:15:45 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that only really works if we build the binaries from the source 20:15:48 <andythenorth> it's not like proper law 20:15:49 *** Ammler has quit IRC 20:15:50 <TrueBrain> as otherwise anyone can upload what-ever 20:16:37 <TrueBrain> there has to be a certain amount of trust between BaNaNaS and the authors 20:16:37 <TrueBrain> we are trying to be a good neighbour, we are not trying to be legally correct on all possibly outcomes 20:16:37 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: But then people will want to upload grfs compiled using custom-patched m4nfo, or whatever ridiculous nonsense stack andythenorth is using now 20:16:37 <andythenorth> nobody in a commercial contract would write 'a network server' now 20:16:37 <FLHerne> (install all the python libs) 20:16:37 <andythenorth> they'd write 'or equivalent technology' 20:16:37 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: exactly why that is just an impossible situation 20:16:39 <andythenorth> unless the server was a specific deliverable 20:16:40 <FLHerne> Yeah :-( 20:17:07 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: What stops uploaders putting random crap in the grf tarball currently? 20:17:09 <andythenorth> also no good lawyer should have let 6 (d) pass 20:17:27 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: LOTS of validation 20:17:27 <TrueBrain> LOTS and LOTS 20:17:27 <FLHerne> Ok :-) 20:17:43 <andythenorth> " the Corresponding Source may be on a different server (operated by you or a third party)" but also "you remain obligated to ensure that it is available for as long as needed to satisfy these requirements" 20:17:43 <TrueBrain> we are sure it is a valid GRF in terms that OpenTTD can load it 20:17:43 <TrueBrain> if you rename a Word document as .grf, it won't work 20:17:43 <andythenorth> it can be third party, but we are obligated? 20:18:21 <TrueBrain> but okay, it really can be resolved as simple as: when reported, we will deal with it 20:18:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you choose a third party, it's on you to contract with them to maintain it indefinitely 20:19:48 <TrueBrain> lol, I only now see we have: "original authors" 20:19:48 <TrueBrain> which for GPL would mean the original author of the work 20:19:48 <TrueBrain> not the one creating the derivative :D 20:19:49 <TrueBrain> not sure that is the intent :P 20:19:50 <andythenorth> "offer equivalent access to the Corresponding Source in the same way through the same place".... "If the place to copy the object code is a network server, the Corresponding Source may be on a different server" 20:20:15 <andythenorth> this is weak drafting 20:20:15 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Maybe add "In case of GPLv3, the source must be available at this URL indefinitely or your content may be removed in future" ? 20:20:15 <andythenorth> either it's the same place, or it's not the same place 20:20:15 <andythenorth> don't specify a condition, then undermine it 20:20:18 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: meh .. lets not over-lawyer this 20:20:24 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd 20:20:24 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd 20:20:48 <FLHerne> True 20:20:50 <FLHerne> That would probably just provoke people to test it, tbh 20:20:50 <andythenorth> we don't need that clause 20:21:04 <andythenorth> author indicates compliance with GPL v3 (if that's what they're using) when they accept ToS 20:21:19 <FLHerne> Unless anyone reads this IRC discussion, no-one else is ever going to care 20:21:24 <andythenorth> if they drop the source from public, they're violating GPL v3 20:21:25 <FLHerne> (probably) 20:21:27 <andythenorth> what happens when authors die? 20:21:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidelines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT7yb 20:21:42 <andythenorth> who wrote this license? 20:21:46 <TrueBrain> some nitpicking in language ^^ 20:21:47 <andythenorth> does it pass on to the estate in the will? 20:21:58 <andythenorth> oh was it Stallman? 20:21:58 <FLHerne> yes 20:22:02 <TrueBrain> mostly why I wanted to add this, was not the discussion of today, but the one with the dude that went mental on the forums 20:22:16 <FLHerne> yes 20:22:16 <TrueBrain> he was right in that it was unclear when uploading what GPL means 20:22:34 <FLHerne> I missed that 20:22:38 <TrueBrain> now those people can no longer say: we did not know we also had to distribute source 20:22:44 <TrueBrain> he wanted to get the source of GRFs, and the authors refused 20:22:48 <TrueBrain> he was .. not .. really polite 20:22:55 <TrueBrain> but it was GPL 20:22:55 <FLHerne> Oh, I see 20:22:59 <TrueBrain> they simply picked the first license 20:23:07 <TrueBrain> they really did not understand the license they picked 20:23:14 <TrueBrain> like .. really did not 20:23:17 <frosch123> [21:21] <andythenorth> what happens when authors die? <- you wait 80 years 20:23:23 <TrueBrain> it was an honest mistake of them 20:23:25 <FLHerne> That sounds like !fun 20:23:37 <andythenorth> frosch123 depending on jurisdiction :) 20:24:35 <TrueBrain> it was a typical: you are strictly seen correct, but the way you approach this, is not going to help anyone 20:24:46 <TrueBrain> as tt-forums is 20:25:39 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: anyway, fwiw, +1 for the current revision 20:25:45 <TrueBrain> cheers 20:26:07 <TrueBrain> is BSD etc not that demanding on source code btw? 20:27:15 <TrueBrain> it is not 20:27:16 <TrueBrain> funny 20:27:19 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 20:27:35 <frosch123> is the discussion done? TrueBrain: did you want to change "original author" -> "author"? 20:27:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I kinda do, but are there any implications? 20:28:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidelines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT7yb 20:28:28 <TrueBrain> I removed "original" 20:28:29 <TrueBrain> it just reads odd 20:28:38 <TrueBrain> like: the ones that came before, or what-ever 20:28:50 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd 20:28:50 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 20:28:50 *** V453000 has joined #openttd 20:29:45 <frosch123> do we do us english? otherwise it should be "licence" with c, i think 20:30:22 <frosch123> i guess we use "license" in other places as noun 20:30:35 <andythenorth> I usually type license 20:30:42 <andythenorth> dunno which is correct 20:30:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 approved pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidelines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT79S 20:30:49 <frosch123> ok, living languages :) 20:31:00 <andythenorth> lots of GB English was arbitrarily frenchi-fied at some point 20:31:05 <andythenorth> to make it seem sophisticated 20:31:10 <andythenorth> and less anglo-saxon 20:31:22 <frosch123> you mean beef instead of cowmeat? 20:31:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] FLHerne commented on pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JT79Q 20:32:16 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd 20:33:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you mentioned that before, about license vs licence 20:33:38 <TrueBrain> but you never changed it, it seems :) 20:33:42 <TrueBrain> at least we are consistent :) 20:33:42 *** Ammler has joined #openttd 20:34:02 <Heiki> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/licence#Usage_notes 20:34:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #49: Add: introduce more clear guidelines in the use of GPL licenses https://git.io/JT7yb 20:35:00 <TrueBrain> right, so we can now put this baby to bed; andythenorth can sleep well, FLHerne can sleep well, I can sleep well .. what a beautiful world :) 20:35:49 <andythenorth> https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/licence-or-license-practice-or-practise/ 20:36:02 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd 20:36:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o planetmaker 20:36:12 <andythenorth> "It notes that late-19th-century dictionaries “almost universally have license both for noun and verb, either without alternative or in the first place”, but insists that the s spelling “has no justification in the case of the noun”." 20:36:48 <andythenorth> GB English is fucked up by lots of people trying to retcon order onto it 20:36:52 <andythenorth> and making it worse 20:36:57 <andythenorth> does German or Dutch have this problem? 20:37:02 *** Osai has joined #openttd 20:37:02 *** avdg has joined #openttd 20:37:20 <TrueBrain> Dutch is more ... living 20:37:51 <TrueBrain> as in .. the dictionary is what we speak/write 20:37:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: both german and dutch have spelling reforms every 100 years 20:38:03 <frosch123> though we inserted a hotfix after the last one 20:38:06 <TrueBrain> as example, we used to have "cadeau", but these days it is just "kado" 20:38:26 <TrueBrain> you can, strictly seen, still write "cadeau", but ... no 20:38:36 <frosch123> usually the previous spelling remains accepted but deprecated until the next reform :p 20:38:36 <TrueBrain> and that is a change of the last .. what .. 20 years? 20:38:46 <TrueBrain> it is pretty fluent tbh 20:38:52 <TrueBrain> it is not like a moment in time 20:39:01 <TrueBrain> where one "time" begins and the other ends 20:39:04 <TrueBrain> or era 20:39:14 <TrueBrain> it is constant deprecation of words and creation of new 20:39:22 <FLHerne> Unlike Germany, where they have rules? 20:39:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996 <- mind the hotfix in 2006 :) 20:39:30 <FLHerne> (or something) 20:39:42 <TrueBrain> I don't know much about German :P 20:39:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: also mind the "disputed" in a text about spelling reforms :) 20:39:53 <TrueBrain> except THAT YOU HAVE TO SPEAK LIKE THIS 20:39:54 <andythenorth> English does not do this reform :) 20:39:56 <FLHerne> frosch123's links was what I meant 20:40:19 <TrueBrain> we have purists over here too, that demand we speak "Proper Dutch" 20:40:24 <TrueBrain> but .... they are losing :P 20:41:13 <frosch123> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:German_orthography_reforms <- look, there is even a category :) 20:41:34 <frosch123> i did not know about the 1944 one 20:42:02 <frosch123> maybe it was reverted or something, let's read 20:42:02 <frosch123> ah, yeah, "planned, but failed" :) 20:42:02 <TrueBrain> they used to publish a "book" in The Netherlands with the latest way of writing 20:42:17 <TrueBrain> but I haven't heard that in YEARS now :P 20:42:17 <TrueBrain> it was a yearly thing :P 20:42:25 <frosch123> we still have it, it's called "duden" 20:42:54 <frosch123> i have no idea how that company/institution interacts with laws on official languages :) 20:43:42 <TrueBrain> for a while we had 2 parties 20:43:47 <TrueBrain> the "green" book and "white" book 20:43:52 <TrueBrain> which both defined the new rules differently 20:43:54 <TrueBrain> that was FUN :D 20:44:22 <TrueBrain> newspapers were stating they used one or the other 20:44:58 <TrueBrain> LordAro: ugh, pyup commits are annoying indeed :D Stupid branch protection .. 20:45:37 <TrueBrain> hmm .. how to do this somewhat sane .. 20:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] glx22 commented on pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JT7H5 20:47:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #48: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oc 20:49:00 <glx> oh there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_French_orthography (and I still mostly not use 1990 version, because I think it's silly) 20:49:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #76: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7rd 20:49:43 <TrueBrain> okay, this is too labor intense .. lol .. 20:50:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #48: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oc 20:53:21 <TrueBrain> sometimes I read funny jokes on the internet 20:53:21 <TrueBrain> "Not only Rust is immature, but it seems the language designers intentionally limited the language. There are a lot of poor programs misusing goto, so they just removed the operator: good for juniors, but too limited for professionals." 20:54:09 <TrueBrain> I wanna bet that who-ever wrote that won't do well in my teams :P 20:54:42 <glx> if you really need to use goto you have other issues :) 20:54:42 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 20:55:25 <FLHerne> glx: re. PR -- well, I don't have a Windows box in use at all 20:55:29 <TrueBrain> you are either a really bad programmer, or you first tried regex :P 20:55:39 <FLHerne> Can I run minGW in Wine? 20:56:01 <LordAro> gotos have their uses 20:56:01 <FLHerne> I'm not sure that would be representative or useful :p 20:56:01 <FLHerne> In C, they can be good for error-handling 20:56:11 <FLHerne> But Rust has better ways of doing that 20:56:18 <LordAro> the uses are very rare, but to blanket say "do not use them" is naive 20:56:32 <LordAro> imo 20:56:49 <FLHerne> And in Rust, the borrow checker has a hard enough job without the insane control-flow you can create with gotos 20:57:05 <TrueBrain> LordAro: said by a true C-developer ;) 20:57:14 <LordAro> it is where i spend most of my time at the moment :p 20:57:28 <TrueBrain> it shows :) 20:57:28 <TrueBrain> in C, using gotos is fine .. often the only way 20:57:40 <TrueBrain> in C++ ..... I doubt it was what you meant to use 20:57:41 <TrueBrain> wanting to use it in Rust? You misunderstood the language :P 20:57:41 <LordAro> but yes, i can't (off hand) think of any good usecases for gotos in rust or c++ 20:58:03 <LordAro> RAII & exceptions "fix" most use cases 20:58:03 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: If you're in grfcodec, you can use any C or C++ feature you feel like, in combination 20:58:18 <TrueBrain> I don't do C++, so I don't see the issue :P 20:58:27 <TrueBrain> I am the weirdo that wrote OpenDUNE in full ANSI-C (as in, C89) 20:58:32 <FLHerne> It has RAII of variadic argument contexts, using a class in a macro 20:58:39 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 20:58:47 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ew dirty 20:58:59 <LordAro> unless you actually wrote it before 1999 :p 20:59:11 <FLHerne> People say that C++ is a nice modern language encumbered by obsolete C things 20:59:30 <FLHerne> But I didn't realize how much that's true before reading grfcodec code 20:59:33 <LordAro> hehe 20:59:45 <FLHerne> It's amazing how insane the edge-cases of combining both sets of features get 20:59:45 <TrueBrain> LordAro: depends ... is 2009 before 1999? 21:00:10 <LordAro> not normally 21:00:13 <TrueBrain> I never understood C++ .. never tried to understand it 21:00:26 <TrueBrain> felt like a bandage on C 21:00:31 <TrueBrain> leave all the shit in, and build to make it "better" 21:00:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.0.6 https://git.io/JT7QQ 21:01:11 <LordAro> sounds like someone who's not actually tries C++ in the last 9 years :p 21:01:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: there are "modules" now, so sun on the horizon 21:01:11 <LordAro> tried* 21:01:11 <FLHerne> C++ is nice provided you don't let people write C in it 21:01:11 <TrueBrain> LordAro: as mentioned, that is a correct statement :) 21:01:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: at least ADA now has a package manager! 21:01:44 <TrueBrain> it made me laugh so hard :) 21:01:44 <TrueBrain> Ada? 21:01:44 <TrueBrain> I think it is Ada, not? 21:02:07 <frosch123> modules will eventually result in a new language, that is abi compatible with c++, but drops the mistakes from the past 60 years 21:02:07 <LordAro> that does sound familiar 21:02:07 <LordAro> i don't think anyone has actually used it 21:02:24 <TrueBrain> it is new! As in, just released! 21:02:49 <LordAro> oh, they've actually released it 21:02:53 <LordAro> it's been in the works for a while 21:03:19 <TrueBrain> About Rust .. I really expected a similar experience as I had with C++, but after doing a decent project with it .. it really is a nice language 21:03:19 <TrueBrain> it really surprised me 21:03:26 <glx> usually with c++ it's "hmm there should be what I need somewhere in STL", until you find it's not available yet (unless in Boost) 21:03:52 <TrueBrain> you learn pretty quick how to deal with lifetimes 21:04:06 <TrueBrain> and I like it is a growing language; they are quick in adding new features :) 21:04:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #76: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7rd 21:04:56 <FLHerne> Integrating it with other buildsystems is a nightmare though 21:05:05 <frosch123> i wonder about the future of boost 21:05:05 <FLHerne> If you have a standalone Rust-only project it's fine 21:05:32 <frosch123> all the common boost things are now standard, or will be in c++23. it only contains weird stuff now 21:05:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain updated pull request #14: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oT 21:05:51 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: haven't tried that .. but cargo is nice 21:06:11 <TrueBrain> lol .. I only know boost as the shit-library you had to compile ... as in: took 2+ hours 21:06:14 <TrueBrain> that was "fun" 21:06:16 <TrueBrain> hmm .. Gentoo 21:06:20 <TrueBrain> that were good times 21:06:32 <TrueBrain> running 64bit before most other people knew what it was 21:06:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i compiled firefox, once 21:06:36 <TrueBrain> back in the days .... 21:06:46 <TrueBrain> hahaha, a mistake you also only make once :) 21:06:46 <glx> most of boost doesn't need compile 21:07:07 <glx> but a lot of space on HDD :) 21:07:23 <FLHerne> I have to compile QtWebEngine (basically Chromium) fairly often 21:07:35 <FLHerne> I got OOMs with 32GB of RAM before allocating some swap space 21:07:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #36: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oV 21:07:51 <FLHerne> Modern web browsers are nuts 21:08:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #21: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7Kn 21:09:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #15: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7KR 21:10:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain updated pull request #38: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oH 21:11:23 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:11:45 <TrueBrain> okay, I think I have them all done now ... I will merge them tomorrow or something 21:14:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #72: [pl_PL] Translator access request https://git.io/JTQhK 21:15:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #36: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7oV 21:15:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #73: [gl_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JT73G 21:15:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #74: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JT7zg 21:15:35 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I wonder what pulls in typing-extensions==3.7.4.3 21:15:39 <TrueBrain> as that is a bit of a weird extension 21:16:02 <TrueBrain> it is for 3.5 - 3.6, kinda 21:16:08 <TrueBrain> (Python 3.5 - 3.6) 21:17:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #21: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/JT7Kn 21:32:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/grfcodec] glx22 commented on pull request #9: Fix various issues with MinGW build https://git.io/JT75F 21:46:19 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 21:46:27 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 21:48:42 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:52:20 <FLHerne> glx: Does yout CMake branch pass -Wall -Wextra to the compiler? Peter's branch doesn't seem to 21:52:44 <glx> probably not 21:52:49 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:52:49 <FLHerne> That might explain the warnings discrepancy 21:53:00 <glx> I just made it support MSVC 21:53:24 <FLHerne> Did you make code changes for that, or just the buildsystem? 21:53:55 <glx> buildsystem and some changes in code 21:54:02 * FLHerne was trying to fix remaining gcc10 warnings, but the code generating them is just nuts 21:54:35 <FLHerne> Did you do anything to `apWrapper` in sanity_defines.h? 21:55:41 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/compare/master...glx22:cmake_fixes <-- my changes 21:56:21 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/commit/19b6db6b4e41033e265ef325c12fbd5efd16b5f0 <-- this is a funny one ;) 21:57:29 <andythenorth> how will 'num_vehs_in_consist' count articulated vehicles? 21:57:48 <FLHerne> glx: I think you just made the code I was looking at even weirder :p 21:58:17 <FLHerne> `va_start(ap.operator va_list&(),v);` // MSVC complains without that call. 21:58:33 <FLHerne> what does it complain, and how does that solve it...? 22:02:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Pretty sure it should be 1 still 22:02:34 <andythenorth> I hoped so 22:03:03 <FLHerne> If it isn't, nml is buggy and we should fix it 22:04:54 <andythenorth> I think it's just too late to be writing code :P 22:05:26 <glx> FLHerne: because it can't convert apWrapper into va_list 22:06:18 <FLHerne> Despite there being a conversion operator to convert apWrapper to va_list? 22:07:04 <FLHerne> Eh, can't make it worse 22:07:31 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 22:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it counts each vehicle part, but the specs should really clarify that 22:08:20 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 22:10:43 <FLHerne> I looked at the var 0x40 docs, they don't explicitly say either 22:11:37 <andythenorth> src will know 22:11:37 <andythenorth> I can code guesses until the result looks correct :P 22:12:27 <FLHerne> "Total number of vehicles in the consist, including shadow and rotor for aircraft.", but 4B says "Position of vehicle (articulated part) within the articulated vehicle" [singular] 22:12:57 <FLHerne> If 0x40 includes articulated parts, NML should work around that somehow... 22:13:10 <FLHerne> Hiding weird implementation details is sort of the point 22:13:48 * andythenorth drawing a weird autocoach 22:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't really imagine the original code from a decade ago skipping articulated parts 22:13:51 <andythenorth> not sure if it will work 22:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that variable probably predates articulated vehicles 22:14:05 <andythenorth> it's like SR gate stock, but in an LNER articulated style 22:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: then there should be another variable 22:14:58 * FLHerne tries to find an nml project that actually uses it 22:15:16 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: In NML, or grf interface? 22:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in grf specs 22:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be pretty much impossible for NML to do that 22:16:28 <FLHerne> CETS doesn't, DutchTrains doesn't 22:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> probably DBSetXL uses it 22:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but that predates articulated vehicles as well 22:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, no, it does have some 22:21:00 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:24:48 <andythenorth> hmm 22:25:38 * andythenorth wonders what position_in_consist_from_end produces 22:25:50 <andythenorth> if last vehicle is articulated 22:27:45 <andythenorth> also in classic error, I was editing the wrong template 22:36:33 <andythenorth> well 22:37:02 * andythenorth will be rewriting some nml :P 22:41:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What was the answer? 22:42:00 <FLHerne> Or did you find different issues and get sidetracked? 22:42:29 <andythenorth> each part of an articulated vehicle counts for the total 22:42:29 <FLHerne> ugh 22:42:29 <andythenorth> I don't think it's automatically wrong 22:42:50 <FLHerne> (also, sorry) 22:43:06 <andythenorth> it just requires an alternative approach to calculating position from end 22:43:51 <FLHerne> I think it's automatically wrong, at least for the NML vars 22:44:40 <FLHerne> If position_in_consist_from_end of the last vehicle isn't 0, that's just wrong 22:45:45 <FLHerne> Hm, it does say "The position of the current vehicle-part from the start of the vehicle." 22:46:36 <andythenorth> as far as I can tell, given a 2 part articulated vehicle at the end of the consist 22:46:54 <andythenorth> position_in_consist_from_end will return 1 for part 0 22:46:57 <andythenorth> and 0 for part 1 22:47:10 * andythenorth might be wrong, I didn't conclusively prove it 22:47:16 <FLHerne> Hm, it does say "The position of the current vehicle-part from the start of the vehicle." 22:50:05 <FLHerne> I still think this is wrong, but it's probably too late now :-( 22:55:18 <andythenorth> well my code works now :) 22:55:27 <andythenorth> not sure if this articulated autocoach is a mistake 22:55:47 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:55:47 <andythenorth> but I wanted a 1-click vehicle with mail + pax 22:57:14 <andythenorth> FLHerne it was the SR birdcage things you posted that gave the idea :) 22:58:23 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:02:49 <FLHerne> yay 23:04:47 <andythenorth> the inability to auto-replace articulated vehicles might make this unwise 23:04:53 <andythenorth> can only have one model 23:14:26 * andythenorth bed 23:14:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:33:40 <FLHerne> glx: Looking at the "block is not referenced" warnings when compiling FIRS, some of them look bogus at a quick glance :-/ 23:34:32 <FLHerne> e.g. soda_ash_mine_tile_1_anim_control 23:34:58 <FLHerne> Oh, I just realized that there's a "Block 'soda_ash_mine_tile_1_anim_control' returns a constant, optimising." warning above that 23:35:26 <FLHerne> So it optimizes out the user, which makes the block not-referenced? 23:35:56 * FLHerne sleep now though. Tomorrow. 23:35:57 <FLHerne> (using IRC as convenient memory storage) 23:35:57 <glx> yeah not referenced existed before I added optimising 23:36:39 <glx> so when it's optimised, the call is replaced by return value, and the callee is no longer referenced 23:38:02 <FLHerne> Ok, that's probably solvable easily 23:38:12 <FLHerne> Do you know if it's the case that all ActionD variables should be constant throughout one grf execution, unless the code itself changes them? 23:38:28 <FLHerne> I asked frosch a while ago and got an answer I didn't understand :p 23:39:11 <glx> I think they should be constant if used as grf parameters 23:41:00 <FLHerne> I noticed that we're generating a lot of the same ActionD chains over and over 23:41:46 <FLHerne> And was wondering if we could reuse them when there isn't register pressure on the parameters 23:42:57 <FLHerne> Non-trivial to implement though, except some very simple cases 23:54:02 *** Progman has quit IRC