Log for #openttd on 20th November 2020:
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18:05:17  <andythenorth> yo
18:07:56  <longtomjr> hello
18:10:04  * andythenorth stuck on silly company colour issues
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18:27:32  <andythenorth> maybe hmm
18:28:05  <andythenorth> can we have a newgrf var for 'vehicle group name contains substr [str]' returns bool or count (maybe just bool)
18:28:09  <andythenorth> I am not trolling
18:28:44  <andythenorth> would it be network safe?
18:34:59  <FLHerne> It would be, but why?
18:35:36  <andythenorth> "Coal trains (Railfreight)"
18:35:41  <andythenorth> "Coal trains (EWS)"
18:35:52  <andythenorth> "Stone trains (Freightliner)"
18:35:59  <andythenorth> look for the strings, set the appropriate livery
18:36:18  <andythenorth> I am just looking for any user-configuration point for trains
18:36:46  <andythenorth> I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks
18:37:11  <andythenorth> ctrl-click only offers 1 bit of configuration
18:37:21  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> look for the strings, set the appropriate livery <- fuck with translations
18:37:23  <andythenorth> and company colour settings don't work great in grops
18:37:49  <andythenorth> I started thinking about configuration via container, not instance
18:37:51  <longtomjr> Maybe there is a way to make the cargo subtypes ui better. maybe use a 2 column design?
18:38:36  <andythenorth> maybe but it would need to be n-dimensional
18:38:37  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks <- then *someone* should address that
18:38:46  <andythenorth> subtypes are used for power, gearing, capacity, livery
18:39:23  <longtomjr> Yep, but maybe just a column for cargo type, and then whatever else the grf use the cargo subtypes for
18:39:33  <longtomjr> So you can get away with 2 columns
18:39:39  <FLHerne> Just do the UKRS2 thing and pick any suitable livery for the era
18:39:54  <FLHerne> Giving each train its own livery is pointless micromanagement
18:40:03  <Wolf01> ^
18:40:04  <longtomjr> Each group is fun though
18:40:50  <FLHerne> You could rotate them by year of build or something, if you really must have all of them
18:41:15  <longtomjr> I don't mind the cargo subgroup refit ui currently
18:41:22  <FLHerne> All class 66s built in 2000 are EWS, all the 2001 ones are Freightliner, blah
18:41:42  <longtomjr> but I agree that it could be better.
18:42:51  <andythenorth> I use the liveries to see different routes
18:42:52  <longtomjr> I am pro-liveries, I think it is fun to play with. I am however also someone that sits in the object and station menu, clicking and scrolling around for hours.
18:43:01  <andythenorth> I don't do all them realistic, it's just a side effect
18:43:12  <longtomjr> and still build terrible eyecandy
18:43:30  <longtomjr> I also don't care about having them realistic. I want them for seperate groups as well
18:43:47  <andythenorth> I already have all the engine livery options I could ever want
18:43:56  <andythenorth> it's the wagons that are puzzling
18:43:59  <andythenorth> hmm
18:44:05  <longtomjr> especially in co-op infrastructure sharing games, where you run a bunch of inter city trains to the other players, and you want them all to look different because it is fun
18:44:11  <andythenorth> how about I just add colour variants of every wagon to the buy menu?
18:44:29  <andythenorth> e.g. 'box car red', 'box car blue', 'box car green'
18:44:39  <longtomjr> Can that not just be done with 2cc?
18:45:02  <longtomjr> and add a part to the description of the wagon saying what colors result in what livery looks?
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18:48:23  <longtomjr> You can just have it as cargo subtypes for the wagons, and then you can just multi-select the wagons in the refit menu
18:53:07  <andythenorth> I never use refit menu :)
18:53:12  <andythenorth> awkward I know :)
18:53:46  <andythenorth> I am trying to use side channels because I hate the official API for modifying vehicles
18:57:05  <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be an API for grfs to add extra settings per train/group/company
18:57:10  <FLHerne> Sort of extended action14
18:58:26  <FLHerne> But instead of specifying parameters it would specify a set of vehicle variables
18:59:10  <FLHerne> precedence would be train > group > [parent group] > company
19:01:05  <longtomjr> andythenorth, can you not just work around the official api for modifying vehicles since you can just generate with scripts?
19:01:13  <longtomjr> or am I missing something
19:01:38  <FLHerne> longtomjr: Then the vehicle list would be ludicrously unusable instead
19:02:08  <andythenorth> FLHerne I wondered about that, extensible [something]
19:02:10  <longtomjr> I meant doing it the cargo subtype way
19:02:27  <FLHerne> (possibly this is news to anyone who's used the station list with nine million custom tiles)
19:03:59  <andythenorth> I was hopeful about just using grf parameters
19:04:10  <andythenorth> but it's very definitively not per vehicle or per train or per group
19:05:13  <andythenorth> I could modify all the engines to only use 1CC
19:05:19  <andythenorth> and then set all wagons to 2CC
19:05:33  <andythenorth> then the group livery can be used for modifications
19:05:59  <longtomjr> Or have the engines be cargo subtypes (since you only need 1 cargo type for them, since they wont have capacity in most cases), and use cc for wagons
19:07:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why wouldn't the wagons just follow the loco colorscheme?
19:07:25  <FLHerne> Not necessarily the same colour, but the corresponding one
19:07:26  <andythenorth> there's a sub-genre of players who like to use grey / brown etc for the wagons
19:07:48  <andythenorth> I can make realistic wagon liveries follow realistic engine liveries
19:08:10  <andythenorth> grainflow hoppers with railfreight 37s :P
19:08:11  <FLHerne> Yeah, so "if loco is green, make wagons grey, else if loco is blue make wagons brown"
19:08:13  <FLHerne> or something
19:08:24  <andythenorth> yes, I've got that in a grf parameter currently
19:09:03  <longtomjr> RUKTS has some decent livery selection options, only using the refit. Don't think there is anything for the cargo wagons though
19:09:21  <longtomjr> tbh, I would probably like to play with my wagons gray or brown in most cases
19:09:39  <andythenorth> the challenge is how to combine 'andythenorth chooses your colours' and 'you choose your own colours'
19:09:52  <andythenorth> without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
19:10:06  <longtomjr> Iron Horse 2cc, and Iron Horse livery set
19:10:32  <longtomjr> The target group is probably different enough that 2 grfs makes sense
19:10:52  <longtomjr> Maybe you can do something smart during the build process to just output 2 grf files
19:11:33  <andythenorth> hmm
19:11:46  <andythenorth> it's not really a newgrf problem, in the final analysis
19:12:05  <andythenorth> I guess all I'm trying to do is fix that group liveries doesn't support wagon colours
19:12:10  <andythenorth> I really group liveries
19:12:21  <andythenorth> and I really like being able to set wagon colours
19:12:36  <andythenorth> so I'm just trying to fix OpenTTD using newgrf
19:12:53  <longtomjr> the 1cc engine + 2cc wagon seems like a decent idea
19:13:16  <andythenorth> I'd need a grf parameter for the second engine colour
19:13:18  <longtomjr> Maybe make that a parameter
19:13:44  <longtomjr> or just have a complement color that is automatically chosen depending on the chosen color?
19:14:02  <longtomjr> it is the lukewarm compromise, but for most cases it will probably be fine
19:15:24  <andythenorth> I think the find(string) route in group name would be interesting
19:15:30  <longtomjr> Also, doing these things with parameters does not really work great with multiplayer games
19:15:33  <andythenorth> no
19:15:44  <andythenorth> nor for most players who do not have grf developer tools enabled
19:15:50  <andythenorth> 'Freight (green)'
19:16:05  <andythenorth> 'Freight (75:13 gearing)'
19:16:18  <andythenorth> 'Freight (slower speed, reduced running cost)'
19:16:27  <andythenorth> basically a text API to modify vehicles
19:16:47  <longtomjr> I honestly don't see the benefit of that over using cargo subtypes
19:17:03  <andythenorth> well it applies to the whole group trivially
19:17:32  <longtomjr> Hmm, I think I would probably just use template replacement for that then. but I think that is a JGRPP feature
19:17:57  <longtomjr> or add it to a refit at station command
19:18:24  <andythenorth> also the text API doesn't require looking through (for example) 192 options in the refit list
19:18:37  <andythenorth> refit to station can't and won't support subtypes
19:18:40  <longtomjr> but it does require you to know it
19:18:44  <andythenorth> same as autoreplace can't and won't
19:19:41  <andythenorth> I was thinking the text API could have a cult following, like commands in text adventure games
19:19:45  <andythenorth> with cheat sheets and stuff
19:19:58  <andythenorth> I could make a cheat sheet for Horse, printable
19:21:28  <longtomjr> The way I see it is that the refit list is like an ingame cheat sheet list
19:21:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I still don't really understand the issue
19:21:47  <FLHerne> > without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
19:21:57  <andythenorth> yes
19:21:57  <FLHerne> How do groups change that at all?
19:22:15  <andythenorth> the group livery enforces cc1 and cc2 for all groups in the consist
19:22:17  <longtomjr> But yes, scrolling through all the options to get what you want can be grueling (compared to just typing)
19:22:32  <andythenorth> * all consists in the group oof :)
19:22:44  <andythenorth> any other vehicle type cc settings are over-ridden
19:24:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But you can still set custom recolour sprites from the grf, no?
19:24:50  <andythenorth> yes, but I can't read the client's wagon colour vars
19:25:16  <andythenorth> the API will let me control player colours any way I want
19:25:18  <FLHerne> Does that matter?
19:25:23  <andythenorth> but the point is that players choose
19:25:29  <andythenorth> I mean, usually, I prefer choosing for players :P
19:25:36  <andythenorth> but setting colours is a player thing
19:25:37  <FLHerne> Wagons are generally either 'colourful' or 'brown' :p
19:25:47  <FLHerne> There's not much middle ground really
19:26:27  <FLHerne> So I think a grf-level setting for "wagons CC" <-> "wagons realistic" would work fine
19:26:50  <FLHerne> Where "realistic" means either "brown/grey" or "some livery corresponding to the loco" or whatever
19:27:06  <FLHerne> (which is kind of what you have now?)
19:27:30  <andythenorth>
19:27:39  <andythenorth> that's slightly outdated, I added more options since
19:28:30  <FLHerne> That seems like overkill, but ok
19:29:15  <longtomjr> Is there a rainbow mode? where each wagon gets a random color?
19:29:17  <FLHerne> That seems fine. Stop trying to solve nonexistent problems :p
19:30:53  <andythenorth> longtomjr I removed it, but
19:31:14  <longtomjr> Hehe, i like that :)
19:31:28  <andythenorth> I considered making it actually rainbow cycle
19:31:31  <andythenorth> as a stupid easter egg
19:31:41  <longtomjr> Graffiti liveries would also be cool
19:31:49  <andythenorth> I can just measure position in consist mod(7)
19:31:55  <andythenorth> for rainbow
19:32:12  <longtomjr> have every n'th wagon have a colorful graffiti look
19:32:19  <andythenorth> would need actual sprites :)
19:32:23  <andythenorth> so....nah :)
19:32:51  <longtomjr> I would settle for just having every n'th wagon colored
19:33:09  <longtomjr> but anyways, I am off to bed now. Good luck in your colorful quest. Night all!
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19:54:22  <andythenorth> maybe I just remove this colour stuff :D
19:54:24  <andythenorth> simpler
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21:17:00  <andythenorth> no maybe I just pick better alternate CC shades
21:17:02  <andythenorth> so it looks better
21:18:23  <andythenorth> oh I have an idea :D
21:21:33  <andythenorth> ha ha
21:21:38  <andythenorth> I can check lead engine CC
21:22:41  <andythenorth> if lead engine CC matches vehicle CC, it's probably in a group with group livery set
21:23:56  <andythenorth> I can infer that if they differ, player has made an explicit choice
21:24:03  <andythenorth> and respect it
21:24:15  <andythenorth> if they haven't, set colour according to parameter rule
21:24:20  <andythenorth> side channel trickery :)
21:36:31  <andythenorth> that will have the stupid result that if player hasn't set wagon CC, I'll over-ride their default choice :(
21:36:32  <andythenorth> oof
21:52:13  <FLHerne> You have strange concerns
21:52:31  <FLHerne> If the player hasn't set wagon CC, they probably don't care what colour their wagons are
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22:06:22  <andythenorth> I guess it's about player having choice
22:06:23  <andythenorth> not me
22:06:47  <andythenorth> there will be a solution, I just need to figure out the edges
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