Log for #openttd on 23rd November 2020:
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07:55:52  <andythenorth> oof, google slow crawling is annoying
08:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> best joke i read today: in a newspaper column about online government surveillance and encryption backdoors: "Keyword: DuckDuckGo, try googling that yourself for better effect"
08:19:07  <andythenorth> it's Eddi|zuHause!
08:19:08  <andythenorth> hi
08:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> might be a fata morgana
08:37:26  <andythenorth> are you floating?
08:39:32  <TrueBrain> I agree andythenorth , google is annoying :P Uploaded the sitemap, it did NOTHING with that so far ..
08:42:03  <TrueBrain> lol ... I google, first URL, I enter that in the search console
08:42:05  <TrueBrain> it tells me: URL is not on Google
08:42:09  <TrueBrain> wellllllllllllllllll
08:42:30  * andythenorth waiting for a page update and a validation fix :(
08:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it goes faster if you sit there and hit F5 every 3 seconds
08:45:10  <TrueBrain> in general information is completely out of sync .. even within the search console
08:45:25  <TrueBrain> it tells me a link is valid but not indexed, I look up the link individually, and it tells me: indexed!
08:45:31  <TrueBrain> like ..... make up your bloody mind or what-ever
08:47:17  <TrueBrain> if I would guess, it seems Google is not spending all that much time anymore on their search engine :P
08:47:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like that's what brings in the money. google might be going the apple way over the next 10 years
08:50:40  <TrueBrain> damn, embedding the duckduckgo search thingy is HUGE :P
08:50:53  <TrueBrain> it kinda stands out in a not-so-nice-way :P
08:52:45  <andythenorth> afaik, the major Google revenue remains lifting money out of the pockets of people like me
08:52:49  <andythenorth> for adsense on SERPS
08:53:15  <andythenorth> sometimes, using Google tools, it's almost like they have some incentive to drive you towards buying ads
08:53:33  <andythenorth> but it's ok, the poacher can also be the gamekeeper, right?
08:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "nice online business you have there. would be a shame if nobody would find it"? :p
08:54:37  <andythenorth> pretty much
08:54:52  <andythenorth> I _believe_ it's all chinese walled internally, to prevent these conflicts
08:54:54  <andythenorth> but then again...
08:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly obvious in youtube, that neither the uploaders nor the viewers are the core audience of... features
08:55:45  <andythenorth> youtube is the plague
08:56:06  <andythenorth> if I didn't enjoy the content so much...I'd boycott it :p
08:56:06  <andythenorth> oof
09:24:12  <TrueBrain> so .. what UTF-8 char to use for a search image?
09:26:03  <LordAro> i don't think you've looked hard enough into why the images aren't working
09:26:04  <LordAro> :p
09:26:16  <TrueBrain> what are you talking about?
09:26:46  <LordAro> isn't that why you're looking at unicode characters at all, rather than actual images?
09:27:00  <TrueBrain> assumptions, my dear Watson ... be careful with those ;)
09:27:07  <TrueBrain> as you made 0 sense just there :D
09:27:22  <TrueBrain> I am looking at UTF-8 chars as they are 10000x easier for me to use, and I am very lazy
09:27:36  <TrueBrain> I am still waiting for one of the 5 (by now) people who said they were going to look into styling things
09:27:42  <TrueBrain> till then ... I am going UTF-8
09:28:01  <TrueBrain> so UTF-8 has TONS and TONS of icons ... but nothing that is useful for many cases I have ... which is a bit .. odd
09:28:13  * andythenorth awaits drive-by CSS contributors
09:28:27  <andythenorth> it's only CSS, right?
09:28:33  <andythenorth> web translator, but for CSS!
09:28:35  <LordAro> anyway, U+1F50E
09:28:55  <TrueBrain> but 1F50D/E cannot be colored .. they are those pre-rendered versions
09:29:15  <LordAro> why is that a problem?
09:29:32  <TrueBrain> hard to make look pretty
09:29:36  <TrueBrain> like .. really hard
09:29:39  <TrueBrain> as every OS renders them different
09:29:53  <TrueBrain> even their heights is not fixed
09:29:56  <LordAro> U+2315 ?
09:30:12  <TrueBrain> it just surprises me .. I expected more out of UTF-8 honestly
09:30:14  <TrueBrain> (never really used it)
09:30:28  <LordAro> you should stop calling it UTF-8 :p
09:30:37  <LordAro> UTF-8 is the encoding scheme, unicode is ...what it is
09:30:41  <TrueBrain> I KNOW :D
09:31:02  <TrueBrain> but here is the thing .... 90% of the websites call it UTF-8
09:31:07  <TrueBrain> so calling it unicode, confuses many people
09:31:12  <TrueBrain> except those who understand wtf it is
09:31:25  <TrueBrain> so there is a dilemma :)
09:31:36  <TrueBrain> being inclusive in this world is very difficult
09:31:36  <LordAro> that's not been my experience
09:31:47  <LordAro> i like this one
09:32:05  <TrueBrain> your experience is most likely heavily biased because of the people you hangout with
09:32:19  <TrueBrain> but to proof a point, one of the more popular sites to look up these graphs, is called :)
09:33:03  <LordAro> literally never heard of that before
09:34:37  <TrueBrain> which ironically says more about you than the website :P
09:34:59  <TrueBrain> local bias is one of the more annoying things in IT, honestly
09:35:19  <LordAro> i mean, if you're googling "utf8 symbols" and i'm googling "unicode symbols", different results are not unexpected
09:35:35  <TrueBrain> I would never use the word symbols :)
09:35:43  <LordAro> OR WHATEVER
09:35:49  <TrueBrain> chillpill! :P
09:36:44  <TrueBrain> in general to me it is always amusing how much bias IT has, and how much 2 worlds can collide .. at any work there is always this one person that insists on calling things different from the rest of the group (which might or might not be me from time to time, to be clear) ..
09:36:59  <TrueBrain> I learnt it is better to comply with the group, as the arguments are a complete waste of time and energy :P
09:37:19  <TrueBrain> it is like how the Dutch language evolves ... you fucking understand each other, so move on :P
09:37:32  <TrueBrain> (nothing against you personally btw LordAro , to be perfectly clear .. it is just a fun fact I noticed over the last 10 years)
09:39:21  <andythenorth> semantic battle!
09:39:23  <andythenorth> please
09:39:38  <andythenorth> etc
09:40:05  <TrueBrain> I still consider it a human trait, to be pedantic on things you know a lot about
09:41:19  <andythenorth> I think I am inhuman
09:41:36  <andythenorth> the more I know about a thing, the less I care about the terms other people use
09:42:25  <TrueBrain> I notice myself more and more often in real-life conversations mentioning: a difference without a difference, lets get to the point
09:42:54  <TrueBrain> I have had people battling that NoSQL is not a database
09:43:11  <TrueBrain> which was .... rather pointless :P
09:44:02  <LordAro> i am often disappointed by how much i know about unicode and its encodings
09:44:07  <LordAro> and indeed non-unicode encodings
09:46:07  <TrueBrain> 5 years ago there was nearly no-one I knew that knew anything about unicode .. it has changed a lot ... where it used to be that "you had to support UTF-8", it is now "you are not supporting UTF-8?"
09:46:15  <TrueBrain> that at least makes me happy :)
09:47:41  <TrueBrain> hmm, you cannot rotate an ::after
09:47:42  <TrueBrain> that is sad
09:59:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: that 45-degree solution gave the best result
10:01:48  <TrueBrain>
10:01:52  <TrueBrain> best I am willing to do :P
10:08:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/wiki-data-staging] TrueBrain opened pull request #3: Add: CSS to style the new search bar in TrueWiki
10:08:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] TrueBrain opened pull request #5: Add: CSS to style the new search bar in TrueWiki
10:10:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/wiki-data-staging] TrueBrain merged pull request #3: Add: CSS to style the new search bar in TrueWiki
10:11:58  <TrueBrain> found a bug in CodeQL :)
10:12:01  <TrueBrain>
10:12:03  <TrueBrain> that is a lie :)
10:12:08  <TrueBrain> that statement has a lot of effect :D
10:12:32  <TrueBrain> owh, I guess it is not visible ...
10:12:55  <TrueBrain> <- it says that statement doesn't do anything
10:16:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] TrueBrain merged pull request #5: Add: CSS to style the new search bar in TrueWiki
10:16:47  <TrueBrain> right, looks good enough on staging, lets push it to production :D
10:17:18  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh god really? i was joking
10:17:24  <LordAro> what's wrong with U+2315 ?
10:18:17  <TrueBrain> <- renders as shit on some devices
10:18:41  <TrueBrain> this is a lot more consistent, it seems
10:22:31  <TrueBrain> LordAro: what is the status of the 2 VPSes?
10:24:16  <LordAro> unchanged from when you added ipv6, i think
10:24:43  <TrueBrain> any ETA?
10:25:01  <LordAro> ...what are you waiting on?
10:25:16  <TrueBrain> didn't we had open topics?
10:25:42  <LordAro> the only thing i was aware of was firewall, and i wasn't sure if we actually wanted to bother proceeding with that
10:26:24  <TrueBrain> important to be verbal about that, as I am waiting on you to finish these things :D (assuming I cannot take them in production)
10:26:43  <TrueBrain> in your last comment, you strongly suggested that you wanted to add the firewall, but didn't know which (after which I assume you would figure out what you wanted to use)
10:26:48  <TrueBrain> and you were going to remove the cache headers
10:27:26  <LordAro> oh yes, cache headers too
10:27:50  <LordAro> neither particularly block actually using the servers, afaik
10:28:17  <LordAro> and i didn't "want" to add the firewall - that was your suggestion
10:28:21  <TrueBrain> I rather have things finished before taking them in production, as otherwise they are very likely to never be applied :P
10:28:27  <LordAro> i was merely unsure what form the firewall should take
10:28:58  <TrueBrain> if it is not much effort, and people always tell me in Ansible things are easy and great, adding a firewall goes a long way in not having to deal with shit on the server
10:29:40  <LordAro> tbh, if things progress to the point of the firewall actually being useful, things have gone very wrong
10:29:52  <TrueBrain> that is a silly reasoning :)
10:30:08  <LordAro> well at that point we'd be wiping the server and starting again anyway
10:30:11  <TrueBrain> you want to reduce your attack surface as much as possible, always :)
10:30:37  <LordAro> sure, and not opening the ports in the first place works just as well
10:30:58  <LordAro> 22 & 80 & 443 - there's nothing else running?
10:31:09  <TrueBrain> not that I am aware; you know better :D
10:31:18  <LordAro> quite
10:31:23  <LordAro> so what benefit is a firewall?
10:31:46  <TrueBrain> security is build up in layers; security-in-depth
10:31:55  <TrueBrain> never assume one layer is doing its job, always apply multiple
10:32:00  <TrueBrain> especially if they are trivial to add
10:32:18  <TrueBrain> so ideally, you want a network firewall .. that is not going to happen with OVH I am sure
10:32:20  <TrueBrain> next is OS-based firewall
10:32:25  <TrueBrain> after that is application security
10:32:38  <TrueBrain> we did application security, as good as we could, especially with the SSH guard running
10:32:43  <TrueBrain> nginx is configured to a minimum
10:32:58  <TrueBrain> but we do not have network security, so having OS-based firewall is a good compromise between the two
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10:33:29  <TrueBrain> (the AWS setup for example has 3 layers of defense before you reach the application)
10:34:18  <LordAro> maybe your threat model is different to mine, i tend to operate under "if an attacker can make a connection to something other than what's supposed to be running, the world has bigger problems than OTTD's content cache being compromised"
10:34:55  <LordAro> s/something other than what's supposed to be running/a port that's not actually running an application/
10:35:17  <TrueBrain> and it is one of the reasons there are so many bot-nets running free, honestly :)
10:35:58  <LordAro> that's because they have unsecured applications
10:36:00  <LordAro> we do not
10:36:10  <TrueBrain> and that is a statement that cannot be true :)
10:37:50  <LordAro> you're conflating "this would be considered bad practice 20 years ago" with "this *might* be considered bad practice in 20 years time"
10:38:07  <LordAro> the former is where most of the botnets have come from
10:39:14  <LordAro> if we were running services that had authentication, or allowed file upload in some form, i'd absolutely agree that a firewall would be a good idea
10:39:31  <LordAro> but we're not (except for ssh, which is locked down hard)
10:41:04  * andythenorth would just run a firewall and be done with it
10:41:16  <TrueBrain> you should join one of my trainings some day :) I promise you you will be a bit more paranoid, but it will also help in understanding that any layer of defense makes it that much more difficult for an attacker
10:41:38  <TrueBrain> there are so many things that can go wrong, and possibly will
10:42:05  <TrueBrain> that adding something as simple as a firewall is a very small effort for denying possible attackers to do bad stuff
10:42:43  <LordAro> i'm quite happy to be wrong :)
10:43:17  <LordAro> there's also the argument that running more stuff has more potential for something to go wrong / be misconfigured
10:43:25  <LordAro> no firewall -> no firewall to go wrong
10:43:30  <TrueBrain> what is difficult for me, in these kind of conversations, are two things: 1) normally I get paid explaining why you are wrong :P 2) I worked for 5+ years for a cyber security company .. I have seen so much shit ... which could easily be prevented by stuff like: firewalls, AVs .. and often the argument went: but we didn't see how it was useful!
10:43:58  <TrueBrain> it takes a lot out of me to just not get mad :P And I understand you simply don't see the world like that, which I hope I can one day return to .. but it is difficult :)
10:44:30  <TrueBrain> hahaha, I like that argument LordAro  :) It is flawed, but it is an awesome way of reasoning :)
10:44:34  <andythenorth> the complexity argument is valid
10:44:36  <TrueBrain> in the same argument: don't auto-upgrade :P
10:44:39  <andythenorth> but risk is balanced
10:44:50  <andythenorth> having locks on doors runs the risk of losing the keys
10:44:55  <andythenorth> but we still lock the doors
10:45:00  <andythenorth> if there's a fire, and you can't get the keys
10:45:02  <andythenorth> you die
10:45:08  <andythenorth> but we lock the doors
10:45:35  <andythenorth> I actually lost all UK customer sites for 4 hours one day, because the telco engineer had lost the keys to replace a failed switch
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10:46:01  <TrueBrain> lol .. that is an interesting problem andythenorth  :)
10:46:13  <andythenorth> it's a triangle, right?
10:46:19  <LordAro> haha
10:46:49  <TrueBrain> anyway, LordAro , mainly where your argument fails there is how much complexity an inbound firewall really adds. The firewall is already running (as ssh-guard), so it is just a configurating thing :)
10:47:07  <TrueBrain> but even without .. not installing security-tools because it is complex, is a road you don't want to follow :)
10:47:19  <TrueBrain> anyway, in our case, why is a firewall useful .. several things come to mind
10:47:32  <TrueBrain> mostly, as it is provisioned by ansible, we can make mistakes and we could open up other ports or software
10:47:42  <TrueBrain> or, because we auto-upgrade, some software could be dragged in without our knowledge
10:47:46  <TrueBrain> having another application open
10:47:49  <andythenorth> the argument "don't _rely_ for security on services configured by people who don't know how to do it" is valid
10:47:49  <TrueBrain> likely? We can debate that
10:47:53  <TrueBrain> easily preventable? Fuck yes
10:48:05  <TrueBrain> a firewall ensures you only allow traffic on what you THINK is running on the host
10:48:11  <TrueBrain> basically, it double-checks you did the right thing
10:48:36  <TrueBrain> so especially a host-based firewall, is just essential for any production server, even in this day and age
10:49:23  <TrueBrain> in the cyber security we often refer to the CIS Top 20, where CIS is the Center for Internet Security, they give amazing good advise in how to protect the world here and now
10:49:31  <TrueBrain> in case you don't know it
10:49:43  <TrueBrain> (if you manage production servers or build production software, you REALLY should know CIS)
10:50:06  <TrueBrain> you see the first 6 .. not having those is .. well .. go fuck yourself, is my opinion about that :)
10:50:12  <TrueBrain> you did most of that with ansible
10:50:29  <TrueBrain> we know the hosts, we know the software, we run auto-updates, limited amount of people with access (well, we violate the named-user-accounts)
10:50:40  <TrueBrain> we do not do 6, but .. security is a balance
10:50:54  <TrueBrain> in AWS I don't do 6 really too ... it collects, best we can do for the size we are
10:51:25  <TrueBrain> so where firewalls, as example, kick in, is 9 and 12
10:52:06  <TrueBrain> so important to realise, it is not only to make it more difficult for attackers, but also avoid issues coming from misconfiguration and fuck-ups
10:52:29  <LordAro> yeah, you're not wrong
10:52:33  <TrueBrain> but I kinda like the idea that if someone manages access to the VPS, they cannot host a Minecraft server
10:52:34  <LordAro> you'll be surprised to hear
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10:52:44  <TrueBrain> :P I appreciate you saying it, honestly :)
10:53:02  <TrueBrain> who now can I send the bill of 200 euro? :P
10:53:30  <LordAro> :P
10:53:54  <TrueBrain> it is also why I really liked the idea of having the VPS cache-only, besides easier to do
10:54:00  <TrueBrain> it means data integrity is a lot easier
10:55:07  <TrueBrain> that all said, if it takes 200 lines of Ansible to setup the firewall, it is not worth it
10:55:12  <TrueBrain> if it is 5 lines, it is
10:55:24  <TrueBrain> (as with 200 lines, the complexity argument really starts to win)
10:55:30  <LordAro> mm
10:55:45  <LordAro> so we'd want to block all incoming except 22, 80 & 443
10:55:55  <LordAro> and presumably all outgoing except for 443?
10:56:29  <TrueBrain> I would love to block all outgoing if you can, but I can never really predict if that works
10:56:43  <TrueBrain> apt-get might need 80 still?
10:56:44  <LordAro> well we need to connect to S3 at some point...
10:56:51  <LordAro> i installed https support
10:56:55  <LordAro> for apt
10:56:56  <TrueBrain> sweet
10:57:18  <LordAro> i think it might be default these days, but can't harm to have it explicitly
10:57:19  <TrueBrain> for AWS I allow all outgoing still (and incoming based on established)
10:57:36  <TrueBrain> but that is mainly because I haven't looked into that ..
10:57:52  <TrueBrain> (so incoming is the defined ports + established rule)
10:58:51  <TrueBrain> now I think some more about it, yeah, I cannot image what would need to use outgoing besides 443
11:00:25  <TrueBrain> <- the search uses the language of the page you are on when searching; it is pretty nice :)
11:01:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: just don't forget the "-A INPUT -m conntrack --ctstate ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT" or what-ever the equivalent is for what firewall you use
11:01:29  <TrueBrain> but again, I assume there is an ansible role doing this shit :P
11:02:32  <LordAro> presumably that is for logging accepted connections?
11:02:57  <TrueBrain> no; if you allow traffic going out on 443, the local port is not 443
11:03:08  <TrueBrain> so the firewall needs to let back in the local port traffic
11:03:23  <TrueBrain> something something two-way-connections
11:03:37  <LordAro> ah right
11:07:21  <TrueBrain> owh, and the reverse of course too LordAro : "-A OUTPUT -m conntrack --ctstate ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT"
11:07:36  <TrueBrain> <- wow, that is a pretty decent write-up
11:08:00  <LordAro> digitalocean's docs are pretty good
11:08:10  <LordAro> i used them often when i worked for another hosting provider :p
11:09:00  <TrueBrain> haha :D
11:09:11  <TrueBrain> I am always surprised in the clear way of wording they manage to use
11:09:30  <TrueBrain> often these documents are like: this could mean two things, which one do they mean
11:09:33  <TrueBrain> in DOs ... not so much
11:11:55  <LordAro> aha, this is helpful :0
11:11:58  <LordAro> :)*
11:12:19  <TrueBrain> there is no ansible role doing this default stuff?
11:12:26  <LordAro> not sure
11:12:38  <LordAro> haven't got that far yet
11:12:48  <TrueBrain> I just shut down the old wiki server ...
11:12:53  <TrueBrain> w00p :D
11:13:02  <LordAro> the one i found automates configuration, it doesn't do any configuration for you as far as i'm aware
11:22:05  <TrueBrain> I still love that creating a backup from S3 goes at my line-speed ... 500 mbit/s :D
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11:24:39  <TrueBrain> LordAro: has some example configuration which might also help
11:26:40  <LordAro> yeah, that's what i was looking at
11:29:02  <LordAro> i'll try to have a look at finishing up the configuration this evening
11:29:07  <LordAro> to answer your original question :D
11:30:43  <TrueBrain> \o/
11:30:47  <TrueBrain> cheers :)
11:30:54  <TrueBrain> and seriously appreciated you are doing this :)
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11:49:24  <TrueBrain> boy, an S3 sync takes for-ever with many files :P
11:49:52  <andythenorth> how many files?
11:50:10  <TrueBrain> I asked myself that same question, but it is taking a bit of time to answer that :D
11:50:17  <TrueBrain> (doing a `find . | wc -l` as we speak)
11:50:29  <TrueBrain> 109k
11:50:30  <andythenorth> currently I am manually syncing, because I don't want to learn about whether it's a problem on S3 :P
11:50:53  <TrueBrain> well, "sync" is a bit weird, in that it retrieves the full object list, compares file sizes, and transmits file that are missing
11:50:57  <andythenorth> I only have 21k files so far
11:51:07  <andythenorth> but I need a similar solution
11:51:17  <TrueBrain> so sync for large amount of files is just slow
11:51:32  <TrueBrain> (and a bit costly on S3, as you need a lot of GET operations :P)
11:51:37  <andythenorth> I could just upload everything every time, and invalidate all of cloudfront distribution
11:51:46  <TrueBrain> "a bit" being the right word, I believe it is 0.01 cent every time I do this :D
11:52:24  * andythenorth wonders how bad 'replace everything' is :P
11:52:31  <TrueBrain> I would love to look into it for you, but I am first finishing this dreadful migration :P
11:52:41  <andythenorth> ultimately I wanted to do this on a git pipeline, publishing whenever tagged
11:52:46  <TrueBrain> still need to replace supybot ....
11:53:05  <TrueBrain> now first lunch
11:54:57  <andythenorth> lunch!
11:54:57  <andythenorth> yes
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12:53:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] buzzCraft opened issue #93: [nb_NO] Translator access request
13:21:17  <LordAro> TrueBrain: looked a bit more, and seems like firewalld might be The Future(tm) ? afaict it's only a wrapper around iptables/nftables, but may well be easier to configure
13:30:17  <andythenorth> is it lunch?
13:46:04  <FLHerne> yes
13:46:23  <andythenorth> noted
13:46:26  <andythenorth> thanks
13:50:04  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I don't know it, but it is all fine by me :)
13:50:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WhitePassRanger opened issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
13:50:29  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I really only use iptables, as I cannot keep up with all the new shit like ufw, nftables, ....
13:50:35  <TrueBrain> I am getting too old for this shit :P
13:52:31  <TrueBrain> funny, seems that that dude is legit out of memory :P
13:52:42  <andythenorth> over the age of 35, all technology is just a jumble
13:52:45  <andythenorth> or something
13:52:55  <andythenorth> I just hear 'thing thing thing purpose problems thing'
13:54:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
13:55:16  <andythenorth> so child #1 is getting an M1 mac for christmas
13:55:23  <andythenorth> should I open it before and check it works?
13:55:27  <LordAro> are you child #1?
13:55:32  <andythenorth> or shall I let him unbox it on christmas day?
13:55:47  <andythenorth> the main issue being...will openttd compile native to M1
13:55:56  <andythenorth> 'check it works' = that
13:56:09  <LordAro> as per mr rudge, the issue is the homebrew packages
13:56:11  <planetmaker> I see the main issue: child #1 will get your old mac, should you unbox it before ;)
13:56:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker a valid suggestion
13:56:26  <planetmaker> hi also :)
13:56:31  * LordAro waves
13:56:42  <andythenorth> so who is on OpenTTD customer support on 25th December?
13:56:46  <andythenorth> I might need a PR :P
13:56:55  <FLHerne> Hah, that was always how I got better computers as a child
13:57:25  <andythenorth> same person as rest of year?
13:57:33  <FLHerne> Whenever Dad got some new shiny, I got whatever the previous machine was
13:58:12  <LordAro> andythenorth: teach child to fix problems themself
13:58:54  <FLHerne> Also that :p
13:59:37  <andythenorth> possibly
13:59:49  <andythenorth> although I have not taught myself to fix problems yet
13:59:52  <FLHerne> I must have been...14 or something when I was trying to compile OTTD for my weird Powerbook
13:59:54  <andythenorth> so there is a priming problem
14:00:13  <FLHerne> Apple having strange non-standard CPU archs is not a new thing
14:00:24  <andythenorth> it's very circular
14:00:52  <planetmaker> does history repeat itself?
14:01:01  <andythenorth> it's also circular to 1995 and the argument that eventually Acorn and RISC would out-perform Intel / CISC
14:01:09  <andythenorth> which kinda didn't happen
14:01:18  <andythenorth> but temporarily is the case now
14:01:19  <FLHerne> For a given value of 'eventually', they might be right :p
14:01:29  <planetmaker> forecasts are difficult. Especially concerning the future ;)
14:02:11  <FLHerne> Nah, you just predict every conceivable outcome and point to the ones you got right
14:02:15  <andythenorth> it's really unclear how they're getting the performance out of the M1 :P
14:02:41  <FLHerne> Isn't it just an up-clocked A14 through better cooling?
14:02:47  <FLHerne> Architecturally at least
14:02:56  <andythenorth> yes and no
14:03:09  <planetmaker> architecturally yes. But the core/cpu design is custom
14:03:12  <andythenorth> is the performance because of the UMA?
14:03:19  <andythenorth> is the performance because they can optimise for mac workloads?
14:03:26  <andythenorth> is it because of fundamental architecture?
14:03:30  <andythenorth> do they just have better fab?
14:03:36  <andythenorth> it's all a bit smoke and mirrors
14:04:03  <planetmaker> I've read that the M1 outperforms the intel one even when running things in the rosetta2 layer
14:04:10  <andythenorth> I've seen the videos of it
14:04:20  <planetmaker> they do have better fab than intel with 5nm
14:04:37  <LordAro> intel haven't been able to go lower than 14nm, have they?
14:04:41  <andythenorth> the £999 M1 macbook air benchmarks better or equivalent to my £2500 i9 with discrete graphics
14:04:41  <planetmaker> where intel struggles to get even 7nm running for production
14:04:49  <planetmaker> or was it struggling for 10?
14:04:57  <andythenorth> mac intel perfomance is appalling though
14:05:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Bizarrely high memory bandwidth per core might have something to do with it
14:05:14  <FLHerne> *each core* can pretty much saturate the memory bus on its own
14:05:25  <andythenorth> someone should benchmark against a £2500 Dell i9
14:05:39  <FLHerne> Of course that's not great for multi-thread scaling, but good for OTTD and web browsers
14:05:41  <LordAro> planetmaker: it's part of the reason AMD have been able to overtake intel
14:05:55  <michi_cc_> To be fair to Intel, the various XXnm processes don't measure the same thing, e.g. Intel 14nm is similar to TSMC 10nm.
14:06:06  <LordAro> ofc
14:06:06  <FLHerne> LordAro: They have 10nm in reasonable volume for laptops now
14:06:27  *** michi_cc_ is now known as michi_cc
14:06:59  <planetmaker> quite right @LordAro :)
14:07:41  <FLHerne> must walk dog
14:07:57  <andythenorth> don't dogs walk the owner mostly?
14:08:10  <andythenorth> dog walkers get an extra year of lifespan or something, on average
14:08:19  <andythenorth> more if they're christian and married
14:09:08  <andythenorth> oh
14:10:41  <FLHerne> Well, really this one just walks, and I go with him so people don't think he's lost
14:10:56  <FLHerne> He's not very fussed
14:11:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WhitePassRanger commented on issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
14:23:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
14:23:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
14:28:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WhitePassRanger commented on issue #8343: Out of memory. Cannot allocate
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16:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause> random coincidence: i was just reading the issue talking about "committed memory", and on another tab i randomly had open a wiki page talking about "escalating committment" (aka 'sunk cost fallacy')
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16:49:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8339: [Question] Rate limit password entry for multiplayer
16:50:06  <andythenorth> Timberwolf player using both Horse and your trains :o
16:50:11  <andythenorth> that's a boatload of trains
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17:00:15  <frosch123> meh, i hope the duckduck results improve over time
17:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the few instances i actually bothered to use duckduckgo instead of google, i was very quickly annoyed about the poor quality of the search results
17:01:18  <frosch123> they are better for python apis :)
17:01:40  <frosch123> google always links to python 2.x stuff
17:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i did notice that. 3.x stuff is further down usually
17:02:32  <frosch123> i think duckduck hardcoded python. they have a speical widget, like for wikipedia
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17:07:22  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: I've seen at least one bug report save with multiple train sets, including mine. Most people I know have a hard time getting over the different pixel densities, let alone "these trains are twice the length of the others" problem.
17:07:25  <FLHerne> frosch123: They've got worse over time
17:07:54  <FLHerne> "exact" doesn't work anymore, wolframalpha results don't exist anymore
17:07:58  <Timberwolf> So it's good people are out there not caring in the slightest, happily mixing and (not) matching.
17:24:07  <LordAro> google has gotten better at python api results in the last few months
17:24:12  <LordAro> i mostly see 3.x first now
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17:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't done a lot of python lately
17:36:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: at least you can search now :P
17:37:25  <frosch123> nice work :)
17:37:55  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: maybe you want to write a lot of css instead?
17:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound like me at all :p
17:53:50  * orudge should bave his M1 Mac Mini arriving tomorrow
17:54:18  <orudge> Will be interesting to see how OpenTTD compares performance-wise when emulated vs native
17:54:19  <frosch123> i thought that was a tank
17:55:23  <TrueBrain> I have to give it to Apple, they did create a nice buzz around their new CPU :)
17:55:42  <frosch123> isn't that all that apple is? :p
17:56:20  <TrueBrain> when they launched their new CPU for the mobile, it didn't create this much fuzz :P
17:57:31  <frosch123> well, as long as it is little endian
17:57:38  <TrueBrain> haha, yes :D
17:58:06  <TrueBrain> I am really looking forward to the new ESP .. first time I would do anything with RISC-V .. could be fun :)
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18:09:07  <frosch123> are you going to use assembly? or why do you care?
18:11:03  <andythenorth> orudge \o/
18:11:52  <andythenorth> frosch123 the buzz is 'this mac is actually fast, instead of Apple just saying it's fast' :P
18:12:06  <andythenorth> 10 years of being told they're fast when they're not :P
18:12:35  <frosch123> i though noone has it yet?
18:12:54  <andythenorth> nah they've shipped, it's real
18:13:13  <andythenorth> if anything, Apple have under-hyped by their own standards
18:15:53  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it has a much lower deep sleep power state, and from the looks a more efficien operating usage .. so longer battery life. And yes, you can program for it in more than weird buggy compilers and only in C or MicroPython (lol). So many possibilities :)
18:16:37  <TrueBrain> And it would somewhat complete my experience with embedded devices :D
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19:51:13  * andythenorth embeds some chips
19:51:15  <andythenorth> by eating them
19:51:16  <andythenorth> with mayo
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21:06:30  <andythenorth> I did a reply
21:11:52  <LordAro> :+1:
21:14:08  <andythenorth> also those links in first post work for me
21:14:23  <andythenorth> do they not work for unauthed or something?
21:14:36  * andythenorth tests
21:14:38  <andythenorth> nope they work
21:14:45  <andythenorth> puzzling
21:15:33  <LordAro> i think TB did something earlier today?
21:15:44  <LordAro> or recently
21:15:48  <LordAro> i've not been paying attention
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21:35:24  <milek7> search box probably doesn't look as intended
21:35:36  <milek7>
21:37:08  <LordAro> tis a bit squashed
21:39:35  <Wolf01> I see it fine, some browser cache to clear?
21:41:17  <LordAro> that's how it looks to me, with hard refresh
21:41:20  <LordAro> how are you seeing it?
21:41:57  <milek7> that is on firefox
21:42:01  <milek7> it looks better on chrome
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21:49:32  <milek7> any MacOS magicians here?
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21:49:51  <orudge> Define "magician"
21:50:02  <milek7> brew install libpng
21:50:04  <milek7> Warning: libpng 1.6.37 is already installed and up-to-date
21:50:15  <milek7> in cmake: find_package(PNG 1.6 REQUIRED)
21:50:30  <milek7> result: Could NOT find PNG: Found unsuitable version "1.4.12", but required is at least "1.6" (found /usr/local/lib/libpng.dylib)
21:50:33  <milek7> wtf?
21:51:21  <orudge> Hmm, Homebrew is one of those things I never tried, I prefer MacPorts. vcpkg can also be handy for open source libraries (which then integrate easily with cmake).
21:51:38  <orudge> I assume homebrew installs to /usr/local/lib, but I don't know
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21:56:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #93: [nb_NO] Translator access request
21:58:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: briefly completely locked myself out of bananas-1 and wasn't able to make outgoing connections either, just had my existing ssh session
22:01:37  <glx> milek7: same happens in CI it seems
22:02:06  <glx> I'd blame brew
22:03:56  <milek7> stackoverflow says that cmake is selecting outdated png.h from some other directory
22:04:18  <LordAro> you know where pull requests go :)
22:06:14  <milek7> ah, this is not ottd thing
22:06:26  <milek7> ottd probably doesn't care about old libpng?
22:07:10  <LordAro> not hugely, no
22:07:51  <glx> we don't enforce a minimum version
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22:17:07  <milek7> whatever it does, `set (CMAKE_FIND_FRAMEWORK LAST)` solves this
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22:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro updated pull request #4: Add: ansible playbook for configuring new caching content servers
22:38:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro commented on pull request #4: Add: ansible playbook for configuring new caching content servers
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23:30:12  <TrueBrain> Haha, that forum topic ... it made me laugh out loud .. I always forget how precious people are, and how non-construtive ... "omg something changed and I found 2 things I do not like, let's burn this shit to the ground" .. I cannot possibly take these kinds of posts serious :p
23:30:34  <TrueBrain> It might have good points, but it got complete lost in the stupidity of the form of typing
23:31:25  <TrueBrain> milek7: tnx for screen, seems input boxes are not normalized between browsers yet .. will check it tomorrow
23:31:40  <TrueBrain> It was designed for FF btw, Chrome looks a bit worse than FF
23:32:24  <milek7>
23:32:25  <milek7> this is chrome
23:34:35  <TrueBrain> I am guessing you are not on Windows?
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23:34:50  <milek7> of course not :P
23:35:00  <TrueBrain> LordAro: nice work :D will review tomorrow :)
23:35:20  <TrueBrain> Seems Chrome normalizes a bit more between OSes :)
23:35:30  <TrueBrain> Screenshot was FF?
23:35:45  <milek7> yes
23:36:05  <TrueBrain> Weird how FF doesnt normalize between OSes :p
23:36:26  <TrueBrain> I just assumed input boxes were styled the same everywhere :)
23:36:34  <TrueBrain> Silly, I know
23:36:42  <TrueBrain> The reason I normally don't do CSS
23:36:53  <TrueBrain> But ... something something nobody else home :p
23:39:00  <TrueBrain> now ... time for me to reply to a forum thread :D I really shouldn't, but I am really going to :D
23:39:15  <LordAro> and i was going to go to bed too
23:39:26  <LordAro> now i have to stay up to read it :p
23:40:18  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Mind you don't get trapped in the forum
23:40:36  <milek7> TrueBrain: border: 0; padding: 3px; yields
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23:59:55  <TrueBrain> right, done writing .. now I need to tone down some wording .. :P

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