Log for #openttd on 30th November 2020:
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11:35:47  <andythenorth> yo
11:58:02  <andythenorth> hmm
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11:58:11  <andythenorth> who wanted narrow gauge iron wagons?
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16:33:16  <andythenorth> GIF!
16:40:39  <Timberwolf> Cool!
16:40:48  <Timberwolf> Well. Not cool, technically. Molten!
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16:48:20  <andythenorth> :)
16:49:04  <andythenorth> so also have I done enough UK Horse engines Timberwolf? o_O
16:49:11  <andythenorth> might stop adding them soon
16:56:43  <Timberwolf> I can't think of anything missing other than a 2020s re-envisioning of the Cycloped.
16:58:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro merged pull request #4: Add: ansible playbook for configuring new caching content servers
16:58:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro pushed 1 commits to master
16:58:27  <DorpsGek_III>   - Add: Basic ansible playbook for configuring new caching content servers (by LordAro)
16:58:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro commented on issue #2: Migrate mediawiki to a wiki running on AWS
16:58:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/aws-infra] LordAro closed issue #2: Migrate mediawiki to a wiki running on AWS
16:59:54  <andythenorth> I tried adding a class 65 (proposed high power 60), but I can't make it look good, class 60 is just a box, and I have 3 variants already
17:00:22  <andythenorth> I could use the proposed version with inverted French cab windows, but it's hard to draw :P
17:05:43  <Timberwolf> The Class 60 has a very :-| "face".
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17:20:49  <andythenorth> I did it once for this, but trying to make it different-but-the-same for another engine failed
17:21:12  <andythenorth> given I already did the 92
17:22:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] Yoyo45-ux opened issue #95: [sl_SI] Translator access request
17:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not convinced i'm doing this right :)
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18:20:23  <supermop_Home_> fancy factory Eddi|zuHause
18:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i copied that layout from another person, who couldn't get it to work
18:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> he caught a serious case of
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19:00:00  <andythenorth> Timberwolf considered motorail? o_O
19:00:17  <andythenorth> vehicle wagons carrying pax?
19:07:08  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, the vehicle wagons don't carry pax
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19:09:08  <andythenorth> I know, that is the question
19:09:26  <andythenorth> is it worth deviating from RL to have that in the game?
19:10:53  <TrueBrain> there can be pax in the cars on the wagons
19:10:58  <TrueBrain> "elite" transport
19:11:00  <TrueBrain> pay extra
19:12:20  <TooTallTyler> What about decreasing the cargo decay rate of passenger carriages if there are motorail wagons attached to the train? I think the cargo_age_period callback could be used for this.
19:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's trains that carry cars (or trucks) and passengers
19:12:41  <andythenorth> TooTallTyler hi :)
19:12:55  <andythenorth> cargo_age_period is pretty much useless
19:13:15  <andythenorth> one story goes that it was only added as a hack to support very large maps, which are otherwise broken with the payment algorithm
19:13:19  <andythenorth> as a newgrf feature, it's junk
19:13:42  <andythenorth> I spent a long time testing it one weekend
19:14:05  <TooTallTyler> I've been using the luxury carriages in Iron Horse but have never really paid attention to differences in payments vs. regular carriages
19:15:54  <andythenorth> one of the less interesting games I've played :P
19:17:32  <TooTallTyler> Is the difference insignificant or is something else broken?
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19:19:07  <andythenorth> most of us seem to approach decay rate as something that could boost payment for certain classes of vehicle
19:19:21  <andythenorth> but actually it can only ever slow the penalty
19:19:45  <andythenorth> and the penalty is quite negligible on sensibly sized maps
19:20:31  <andythenorth> one option is to increase the penalty on most vehicles, and then 'boost' a limited subset back to normal
19:20:35  <TrueBrain> why is the test map on her period? Odd experiments ..
19:21:39  <andythenorth> but messing with payment rate for most vehicles is punitive
19:21:48  <andythenorth> makes those vehicles hard to use, so why bother
19:23:08  <TooTallTyler> And you get side effects with users playing with multiple vehicle grfs, plus base cargo decay rates are defined in industry grfs...yeesh
19:23:35  <andythenorth> yes
19:23:48  <andythenorth> one thing 'special' vehicles could do is boost station ratings
19:23:53  <andythenorth> which would actually be useful
19:23:59  <andythenorth> more so than payment
19:24:14  <andythenorth> but the rating cb is per cargo, and cargo grfs don't know about vehicle grfs
19:24:21  <TooTallTyler> That was my next thought. Money becomes meaningless so quickly.
19:25:10  <andythenorth> also, when someone says 'GameScript' we have all won bingo and can go home
19:25:27  <andythenorth> it's always proposed as the solution to newgrf problems at some point
19:25:56  <TrueBrain> well, you just did, so FREEEEDOOOMMMM /me runs home naked
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19:27:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you need solacement for the pending death of DorpsGek?
19:28:02  <TrueBrain> I cannot bring myself to do it :(
19:28:05  <TrueBrain> it feels so bad ....
19:28:16  <DorpsGek> i'm not dead yet!
19:28:48  <frosch123> i am not sure. is that a scene from life of brian?
19:29:07  <TrueBrain> haven't seen that movie in ages ... good xmas movie!
19:29:21  <frosch123>
19:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> is xmas cancelled yet for this year?
19:30:49  <frosch123> move it to summer, better weather
19:31:31  <andythenorth> hmm really quite addictive
19:31:58  <frosch123> do you want to be young again?
19:32:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I guess you should be lucky there is no-one from Australia awake! :P
19:32:08  <frosch123> or are you worrying about what your kids may be doing?
19:32:25  <TrueBrain> these are his kids :P
19:32:42  <TrueBrain> they moved to Spain and everything trolls
19:34:21  <andythenorth> look how sunny it is in spain right now
19:34:25  * andythenorth looks out window at darkness
19:34:46  <TrueBrain> it is dark in Spain right now :P
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19:35:02  <andythenorth> wat no
19:35:03  <andythenorth> lies
19:35:08  <andythenorth> look in the video feed
19:35:11  <andythenorth> bright sunshine
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19:35:43  <TooTallTyler> It's only 2:35pm where I am but it's dark and raining
19:36:23  <TooTallTyler> Not much better
19:36:25  <TrueBrain> pm .... guess the nationality purely on the way time is described :P
19:36:39  <TrueBrain> <3
19:36:41  <TooTallTyler> We have stupid units here :P
19:36:48  <TrueBrain> many
19:36:55  <TrueBrain> but am/pm for sure is one of the worst
19:37:08  <TrueBrain> it simply makes no sense .... 11am, 12pm, 1pm ... who .... in his right mind .... I mean ... WTF?!
19:39:39  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: downside, complexity and making it work gameplay-wise. Upside, I could draw some Allegros. Compelling case for doing it!
19:41:03  <TooTallTyler> and I'd probably recognize a car on a flatcar faster than your stationary steam engine (which is very nice once I looked closely) ;)
19:43:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #8349: Minor inconsistency in Depot List Window behaviour
19:44:53  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I'll do it if you will :P
19:45:04  <andythenorth> like when me and pikka agreed everything is station refittable :P
19:45:32  <andythenorth> we just pretend people stay in the cars, eurotunnel style
19:45:58  <TooTallTyler> I support this
19:48:39  <andythenorth> TooTallTyler but when I do the US Horse, the FEMA-train nuts will appear
19:48:44  <andythenorth> if I make autoracks transport pax
19:49:42  <TooTallTyler> I can see the reddit posts already
19:50:35  <andythenorth>
19:50:38  <TooTallTyler> I think the original video for that was a parody that people took seriously
19:50:56  <TooTallTyler> oh no, I haven't seen that
19:51:34  <andythenorth> hmm do I really want to go down this rabbithole again?
19:52:51  <TooTallTyler> I've never truly been down that rabbithole until now. I regret this.
19:53:54  <TooTallTyler> Let's just forget about Auto Train for now
19:54:03  <TooTallTyler> I guess they could carry mail instead
19:55:04  <andythenorth> new cargo, cars :P
19:55:10  <TooTallTyler> The original Auto Train was pretty cool though:
19:55:15  <andythenorth> we don't have nearly enough town<->town cargos
19:55:19  <andythenorth> many more needed
19:56:22  <andythenorth> printer cartridges
19:56:25  <andythenorth> coffee capsules
19:56:37  <andythenorth> secondhand wedding dresses
19:56:45  <TooTallTyler> Murican FIRS can have auto terminals which work like scrap yards, based on population
19:56:57  <TooTallTyler> printer cartridges are VALU
19:58:42  <andythenorth> I am quite seriously going to try using vehicle deliveries to boost scrap production
19:59:45  <TooTallTyler> I don't know how I feel about specific cargos to towns though. Goods is generic enough to use with cargodist, if one wants to set up a consumer goods network rather than dumping the entire map's production into whatever town gets a goods station first. Refit to available cargo doesn't play nicely with cargodist, apparently
20:00:07  <andythenorth> it does and it doesn't
20:02:49  <TooTallTyler> re: scrap cars, when I added waste to Improved Town Layouts, I tried to have houses only generate waste if the town had received goods in the past month. Unfortunately houses can't access their parent town's permanent storage so I couldn't keep track of this
20:03:46  <TooTallTyler> can industries access that register? If cars are delivered to the dealership, surely residents will be getting rid of their old junkers?
20:13:29  <andythenorth> industries can access town registers
20:13:36  <andythenorth> I didn't know houses couldn't :)
20:15:10  <frosch123> houses can't? they should
20:15:15  <andythenorth> after FIRS 4 is done, I'm going to experiment with a 'town boost' concept
20:15:32  <andythenorth> where delivering to towns can have gameplay effects, via town register
20:16:24  <TooTallTyler> Houses should, but cannot:
20:16:56  <frosch123> that does not look related
20:17:08  * andythenorth looks in nfo spc
20:18:16  <andythenorth> var 7C?
20:18:20  <andythenorth> t oread
20:18:25  <andythenorth> to read *
20:18:31  <frosch123> it's exactly the same as for industries :)
20:19:07  <andythenorth> oh but sandboxed by grfid?
20:19:12  <andythenorth> so we can't all write over each other?
20:19:23  <frosch123> yes, write is per grfid
20:19:31  * andythenorth is happy again
20:19:51  <andythenorth> I assumed co-operating over locations would be necssary
20:19:58  <andythenorth> better this way
20:20:06  <TooTallTyler> That makes sense
20:20:15  <andythenorth> town effects are under explored
20:20:33  <andythenorth> also TooTallTyler, do you play only Temperate? o_O
20:21:00  * andythenorth would like ITL for the other climates :)
20:21:07  <andythenorth> well...not Toyland
20:21:38  <TooTallTyler> Mostly, yes. The climate restriction is because the other climates have very few sprites compared to Temperate
20:22:09  <TooTallTyler> but I'm working on a new town set with custom graphics which will work in all climates (but look odd in desert and toyland)
20:22:37  *** Hobbyboy|BNC is now known as Hobbyboy
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20:23:19  <andythenorth> ITL is very good
20:23:31  <TooTallTyler> I'm using Timberwolf's rendering workflow so houses will have all four rotations to face the road:
20:23:38  <TooTallTyler> Thanks :)
20:24:07  <andythenorth> voxels? o_O
20:24:16  <TooTallTyler> Indeed
20:24:49  <TooTallTyler> at 1x they're not quite as pretty as hand-drawn, but they're so much faster for me
20:27:09  <TooTallTyler> Going back to town registers, how would I specify my GRFID when reading or writing? I don't think it's automatic, since I got NMLC errors when I tried
20:28:30  <andythenorth> you stuff it into a register
20:28:32  <andythenorth> usually
20:28:51  * andythenorth looks
20:29:49  <andythenorth> maybe not
20:29:52  <andythenorth> maybe it's just a var
20:30:02  <andythenorth> my old code seems to use 0x25
20:30:53  <andythenorth> hmm
20:31:50  <andythenorth> you either know your grfid and hard-code, or you can pick it out with a var and put it in the temp register
20:32:00  <andythenorth> "The GRFID to access must be stored in temporary register 0x100 before checking variable 7C. 0xFFFFFFFF can be used to access the GRFID of the item using the current VariationalAction2 chain."
20:34:18  <andythenorth> I have train examples, but they are all wrong for houses, so might be misleading
20:35:02  <TooTallTyler> I wouldn't mind seeing them anyway, just to see the syntax
20:35:25  <andythenorth> I am reading nml source to see if it supports var 7C
20:35:27  <andythenorth> can't see it
20:36:34  <frosch123> its the regular STORE_PERM/LOAD_PERM
20:37:31  <andythenorth> ha found it in nml thanks :)
20:38:16  <TooTallTyler> Aha, I found mention in the NML specs too:
20:39:13  <andythenorth> what's not clear is whether grfid needs to be put into register 0x100 with NML
20:39:16  * andythenorth looks
20:39:41  <andythenorth> auto-magic
20:40:06  <andythenorth>
20:40:48  <TooTallTyler> I was hoping that was the source of my error :(
20:41:17  <TooTallTyler> Unfortunately I never committed the code so I can't go back and test, but I'll try again sometime and see what happens
20:41:20  <andythenorth> feature is 0x08?
20:41:35  <andythenorth> 0x08 is global settings no?
20:41:46  <andythenorth>
20:42:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: i do not know whether that nml bug was fixed
20:42:55  <frosch123> nml#26 and nml#28 is a mess
20:42:57  <andythenorth> I _think_ L456 supports giving an alternative grfid also, but I'm not sure how that would be set
20:43:15  <andythenorth> is it an additional undocumented parameter on the LOAD_TEMP()
20:44:01  <andythenorth> also why is the grfid being given for a store anyway?
20:44:07  <andythenorth> spec says store is self-only?
20:44:59  <andythenorth> no I should learn to read code better
20:45:15  * andythenorth sticks to pixels :P
20:49:09  <andythenorth> ok so probably a test grf, ideally in nml examples or tests
20:49:15  * andythenorth won't be doing that right now
20:49:33  <andythenorth> then we can see what actually works, fix what's broken, and update the docs
20:49:40  <andythenorth> it's like NRT all over again oof :|
20:52:25  <TooTallTyler> I wish I could help somehow but I'll cheer on any efforts while I continue learning the basics
20:52:59  <andythenorth> I won't touch it now, I have a to-do list as long as both arms
20:53:18  <TooTallTyler> Naturally
20:53:25  <andythenorth> but when it's time for FIRS 9, Now Featuring Town Boost
20:53:27  <andythenorth> ...
20:54:11  <andythenorth> meanwhile it seems Iron Horse has no concept of 'too many wagons'
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20:55:29  <TooTallTyler> I wonder if some might be alternate sprites for different cargo refits, rather than all appearing in the buy menu
20:55:56  <TooTallTyler> the fruit wagon comes to mind here
20:57:36  <andythenorth> the fruit wagon also struck me as disposable
20:57:46  <andythenorth> partly because it's ugly
20:59:31  <TooTallTyler> I was thinking more that it has a specific cargo
21:02:11  <TooTallTyler> Same goes for the Vehicle Parts Van / Sliding Wall Van, Stake Wagon / Flat Wagon, Grain / Covered / Pellet hoppers, Silo / Cement wagons, Edibles / Product tanker, maybe Rock/ Ore/ Hopper, and the Mineral / Scrap wagons
21:02:57  <TooTallTyler> I think some of those could be sprites of another which are automatically selected based on the cargo
21:03:20  <TooTallTyler> Unless you're trying to avoid station refits changing sprites?
21:03:29  <andythenorth> I did try cargo-specific sprites
21:03:42  <andythenorth> but it's just annoying when you want to make a train of certain wagons
21:03:52  <andythenorth> the Horse wagons are basically a train set
21:04:32  <TooTallTyler> To be clear, I don't mind separate wagons in the buy menu, just brainstorming ways to simplify if you so chose
21:04:48  <andythenorth> eventually someone will fork it :)
21:05:16  * andythenorth drawing
21:05:22  <TooTallTyler> Prepare for a lot of Python questions when they do :)
21:05:46  <andythenorth> wonder what the FEMA nuts make of an 'ISIS Holdall'
21:06:37  <TooTallTyler> Is that a sliding wall van? Never seen one outside of Iron Horse
21:06:51  <andythenorth> that's a sliding roof van
21:06:53  <TooTallTyler> All our boxcars over here look about the same
21:06:57  <TooTallTyler> For steel coils?
21:07:08  <andythenorth> steel coils, palettised goods
21:07:10  <andythenorth> paper etc
21:07:52  <andythenorth> US has such a huge system, and so many pooled vehicles
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21:08:11  <andythenorth> it seems to have very few specialised types
21:08:22  <andythenorth> unless they just never make it into HO models and foamer websites?
21:09:09  <TooTallTyler> No, that's accurate
21:09:46  <andythenorth> I found a few oddities, but not many
21:10:52  <andythenorth> I've got a couple of HO pressure tank cars and a carbon black hopper
21:10:58  <andythenorth> and the shorty tankers
21:11:41  <TooTallTyler> Skeleton log cars are neat
21:12:36  <andythenorth> there are quite a lot of open hopper types
21:12:43  <andythenorth> and centerflows are not all the same
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