Log for #openttd on 20th December 2020:
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00:00:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
00:02:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
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00:03:55  <Afdal> Has net_frame_freq been replaced with a new setting
00:04:02  <Afdal> Someone remind me how to compensate for latency
00:07:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
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00:28:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
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00:46:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
00:59:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
01:02:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
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02:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: if i read things correctly, it's "network.frame_freq"
02:16:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
02:26:35  <Afdal> ah thank you
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03:39:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
04:05:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
04:05:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
04:31:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:33:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:34:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:34:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:34:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:34:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
04:34:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
05:16:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges
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07:58:20  <andythenorth> for declaring big blocks of constants
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07:58:26  <andythenorth> in nest tuples or lists etc
07:58:35  <andythenorth> black is not more readable
07:59:05  <andythenorth> stops me having to do format, so I'm using it anyway
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08:52:31  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is what we all do: it is not perfect, but it is better than doing it myself :P Over time you will notice you adjust how you write Python to make that happen less :)
08:54:38  <andythenorth> there is an argument that we make nicer things when we take care about how the internals look
08:54:46  <andythenorth> which I find convincing
08:54:52  <andythenorth> but I'm so bored of moving frigging spaces around
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08:55:13  <andythenorth> especially to line up function args
08:55:41  <andythenorth> what really happens is that I forget, or get bored, or change style
08:55:46  <TrueBrain> you don't belong in IT if you are not trying to automate your work away :P
08:55:55  <andythenorth> then the format is inconsistent across the project
08:56:16  * andythenorth wants black for html
08:56:38  <TrueBrain> some editors can
08:56:57  <TrueBrain> they work better if you write XHTML, is my experience :D
08:57:17  <andythenorth> it's more that black has clearly won
08:57:22  <andythenorth> even if guido doesn't like it
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09:03:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8392: CargoSpec array cleanup
09:04:19  <andythenorth> found an early software use of 'bikeshed'
09:04:27  <andythenorth>
09:04:41  <andythenorth> quite good, explains better
09:06:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
09:07:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
09:13:01  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is a nice read :)
09:13:21  <andythenorth> yes
09:13:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #7962: Improve rendering of large viewport areas
09:13:46  <andythenorth> I have seen "bikeshed" misunderstood as "you shouldn't care about details"
09:14:25  <andythenorth> instead of advice that "everybody commits this fallacy by debating the thing they feel they understand"
09:15:20  <TrueBrain> did you see that the website has another background every time you reload? :P
09:15:24  <andythenorth> yes
09:15:29  <andythenorth> one of the was unreadable :D
09:15:38  <andythenorth> but that post....makes a nice point about grumpy experienced contributors driving away new people
09:15:39  <TrueBrain> I had a pink one a moment ago .. that was unreadable :P
09:16:11  <andythenorth> like...I see things that will come back to me later as 'please fix in newgrf' so I get grumpy
09:16:24  <andythenorth> it's not the best way to keep the project moving
09:16:34  <TrueBrain> there is also the other side of this spectrum, which I find entertaining too .. the atomic power plant. In my dayjob, it is my job to make something like that understandable to a board so they can have an opinion about it other than: "you did the work, it is fine" .. it is amazing how easy they slip to the other side of the spectrum, and complain about the details
09:16:38  <TrueBrain> like .. "name of the project" :P
09:17:13  <TrueBrain> IT is such a balancing act of all these wisdoms :)
09:18:41  <andythenorth> the last 4 paragraphs :P
09:21:04  <andythenorth> it's why JGR can make progress
09:21:12  <andythenorth> no friction, no attrition, no social costs
09:24:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
09:24:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
09:34:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
09:34:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
09:36:16  <andythenorth> TrueBrain you in a discussing mood?  Or a 'get things done' mood? :)
09:36:41  <TrueBrain> neither and both, so bring it on :)
09:37:17  <TrueBrain> (I was in a: I really do not want to close this as I don't feel like spending the next N hours defending my position, so how am I going to word this to make myself clear, mood)
09:37:18  <TrueBrain> :P
09:37:32  <andythenorth> nothing to do with those tickets :)
09:38:01  <TrueBrain> I understood that :)
09:38:07  <andythenorth> TL;DR do a 'candidates' branch, maybe monthly, merging selected PRs to one binary, with (I assume) both WASM and download-binary builds
09:38:19  <andythenorth> we can start from 'why?' not 'solution' also if you want
09:38:36  <TrueBrain> that might be a better idea :P As my current reply is: yes, we call that "master" :)
09:38:48  <TrueBrain> giggles
09:39:40  <andythenorth> well
09:39:48  <andythenorth> we're pretty conservative about master
09:40:32  <andythenorth> TL;DR for 'why?' is many-eyes-make-shallow-bugs
09:40:41  <andythenorth> example is, e.g.
09:40:53  <andythenorth> auto-separate patch would be well worth having
09:40:59  <andythenorth> but 'nobody here plays'
09:41:08  <andythenorth> and my testing is usually unusable
09:41:26  <andythenorth> and the WASM build is awesome, but players won't commit to a long game with a single feature
09:41:37  <andythenorth> they'll just use JGR instead
09:42:39  <andythenorth> I am willing to put money on it that the curious players who used to use nightlies now just use JGR
09:42:52  <andythenorth> so we've lost our early-release testing player base
09:45:25  <_dp_> well, if jgr has the same autosep it doesn't rly matter what players use :p
09:46:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination
09:46:42  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so, an alternative to your idea could be a "showcase" where people can vote on features, how they perceive it?
09:46:56  <andythenorth> some kind of feature gallery?
09:46:59  <TrueBrain> so take your PR, we generate the WASM preview, we put it somewhere people can vote (and leave comments) regarding the gameplay
09:46:59  <andythenorth> let's explore
09:47:02  <TrueBrain> so not the code, to be clear :)
09:47:19  <TrueBrain> this is kinda what you suggest, only instead of putting effort on our plate of creating such monthly, it puts the effort in GitHub and on the author
09:47:26  <andythenorth> I definitely don't have a preferred solution to this
09:47:30  <_dp_> 8032 looks fishy imo
09:47:30  <TrueBrain> we just need a place to run those showcases :)
09:47:38  <andythenorth> but I think my diagnosis of playerbase is about right
09:47:52  <andythenorth> reddit is mostly JGR, discord is mostly JGR, forums is mostly JGR, and coop is dead
09:48:08  <andythenorth> maybe we have 20k vanilla trunk official release players
09:48:11  <TrueBrain> which, combined, is .. how much % of our player base? :D
09:48:13  <andythenorth> but they don't find and report the bugs
09:48:30  <andythenorth> I think I failed to make this point previously
09:48:43  <andythenorth> it's only the vocal, responsive part of the playerbase that concerns me :)
09:48:55  <TrueBrain> but we have a broader responsibility
09:49:00  <andythenorth> coop used to test and find all kinds of stuff by pushing the game harder
09:49:17  <andythenorth> yes we do have a broader responsibility 100% agree
09:49:35  <andythenorth> I just wonder what our current QA strategy is :P
09:49:35  <TrueBrain> we will always be more conservative than any patchpack :D We kinda have to :P
09:49:39  <andythenorth> yes
09:49:53  <TrueBrain> but currently what I am missing, is the lack of being able to judge features
09:50:05  <TrueBrain> I can create my own opinion, but I don't play .. so it is worth nothing
09:50:07  <andythenorth> I am going to make a bold proposal (shoot it down as you see fit)
09:50:16  <andythenorth> features are judged by _playing the game_
09:50:19  <andythenorth> not armchair coding
09:50:37  <andythenorth> and devs don't play
09:50:42  <andythenorth> so we :D
09:51:08  <TrueBrain> that is not a proposal
09:51:09  <TrueBrain> :P
09:51:22  * _dp_ played yesterday
09:51:26  <_dp_> ui sucks :/
09:51:31  <andythenorth> well, I think we have judged a lot of features without playing the game :D
09:51:33  <TrueBrain> UI always sucked
09:51:36  <TrueBrain> like .. always :P
09:51:40  <_dp_> ik
09:51:47  <andythenorth> it's charmingly bad mostly
09:51:47  <TrueBrain> it annoys the hell out of me
09:51:50  <andythenorth> call it a feature
09:51:54  <TrueBrain> that the UI is rewritten .. to have the same shitty UX :P
09:52:11  <andythenorth> anyway I think with WASM and so on we're 95% of what we need
09:52:15  <andythenorth> we just need some bait
09:52:19  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are still not making a proposal, you know that right? You are just stating observations :P
09:52:22  <andythenorth> yes
09:52:25  <TrueBrain> :D
09:52:28  <andythenorth> I don't have a preferred solution
09:52:38  <TrueBrain> but I am now waiting on the bold proposal! :P
09:52:39  <andythenorth> I think 'test by playing' actually is a proposal in this channel
09:52:41  <TrueBrain> I want to shoot things down :D
09:53:00  <andythenorth> well I wanted to propose "let's make bleeding edge builds"
09:53:04  <andythenorth> then I remembered
09:53:09  <andythenorth> you've done nearly all of that
09:53:18  <andythenorth> hurrah!
09:53:25  <TrueBrain> I always like when people lag behind change I am creating :P
09:53:26  <TrueBrain> <3
09:53:32  <andythenorth> remembering things takes time
09:53:48  <TrueBrain> so what I was saying: currently I have a huge problem judging features
09:53:56  <TrueBrain> which makes it very opinionated, and you see that back in comments
09:54:02  <TrueBrain> people bring forth good arguments
09:54:07  <TrueBrain> but .. it is hard to weight those
09:54:21  <TrueBrain> this is why those features need more opinions from players, in my opinion
09:54:26  <andythenorth> +1
09:54:31  <TrueBrain> for example, we can just handle that between devs
09:54:32  <andythenorth> so WASM
09:54:35  <andythenorth> + cloud saves
09:54:35  <TrueBrain> that is just .. "how does OpenTTD work"
09:54:43  <TrueBrain> there is nothing scary about that
09:55:01  <TrueBrain> on the other hand, that is .. different
09:55:09  <_dp_> compatible features can be tested in cmclient first btw, it's very much a "bleeding edge build"
09:55:15  <_dp_> if anyone bothers to do a patch...
09:55:27  <TrueBrain> it is not that we need it tested, it is that we need opinions
09:55:43  <TrueBrain> so having it in any client, in my opinion, is not good enough
09:55:54  <TrueBrain> take the cargo indication ... it solves an itch for at least 2 people
09:56:00  <TrueBrain> but ... how many more people get frustrated by it?
09:56:17  <TrueBrain> (the UI is cluttered as it is, ofc)
09:56:31  <andythenorth> this is why some projects have "this feature might go away" builds?
09:56:35  <TrueBrain> currently I have nothing to judge that feature on
09:56:39  <andythenorth> I play the Blitz tank game a lot
09:56:49  <andythenorth> and the UI and tank tech tree constantly get changed
09:56:53  <andythenorth> and players complain
09:56:58  <andythenorth> and if they didn't get changed
09:57:01  <andythenorth> players would complain
09:57:15  <TrueBrain> we used to have a group of players that played nightlies a lot
09:57:18  <andythenorth> yes
09:57:20  <TrueBrain> and new features were judge pretty quickly
09:57:22  <andythenorth> yes
09:57:28  <andythenorth> we still have the players
09:57:31  <andythenorth> but they use JGR
09:57:32  <TrueBrain> we are not going to get that back :)
09:57:44  <andythenorth> so we can treat JGR as our upstream for patches
09:57:46  <andythenorth> or...
09:57:50  <TrueBrain> so this is why I was thinking: put for example preview build on a place, and ask people to judge it
09:57:57  <TrueBrain> on a Discussion, for example
09:58:19  <TrueBrain> and 8304 is a simple example ... I even haven't gotten to the: wtf do we do with this :P
09:58:23  <andythenorth> with some kind of offer?
09:58:36  <andythenorth> "we don't know if this is good or not, but we'll try and make the best decision using feedback?"
09:58:42  <andythenorth> pure voting is too easily gamed
09:58:54  <TrueBrain> take for example
09:59:26  <TrueBrain> I don't even know where to begin
09:59:30  <andythenorth> me neither
09:59:33  <_dp_> 8304 kinda looks like a change that makes no difference whatsoever to 99% of players
09:59:38  <andythenorth> and I play the game almost every day
10:00:15  <TrueBrain> _dp_: and that would make it an easy merge, if that is the case; but that is your judgement atm :) So we now have 2 opinions on that PR :P
10:00:18  <TrueBrain> I kinda want more :)
10:00:19  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder if trying to clear out the PRs is the best thing right now
10:00:32  <andythenorth> or if we should take JGR as temporary upstream and try and fold a lot of it back in
10:00:35  <TrueBrain> see, in my opinion, OpenTTD is not ours, but of the players. But .. we have a responsibility to keep it a game, and make sure it is playable
10:00:47  <andythenorth> custodian-ship model TrueBrain ?
10:00:51  <andythenorth> 'we are the janitors'
10:00:56  <TrueBrain> but we are
10:00:57  <andythenorth> trustees
10:00:57  <TrueBrain> I mean ...
10:01:22  <TrueBrain> to name something: copy/paste patches
10:01:26  <TrueBrain> we were always against it,as it ruins the game
10:01:29  <TrueBrain> now look at Factorio
10:01:31  <TrueBrain> look back to me
10:01:35  <TrueBrain> (hihi)
10:01:45  <andythenorth> it ruins the game for one specific mental model of 'the game'
10:01:51  <andythenorth> but things change
10:01:52  <TrueBrain> copy/paste is just for another type of player
10:02:24  <TrueBrain> I have grown to love games that allow Total Conversions
10:02:41  <TrueBrain> the game allows interaction, a mod takes over and does what-ever the mod does
10:02:42  * _dp_ played with copy/paste yesterday, couldn't think of any use for it :/
10:02:48  <TrueBrain> the TC is VERY opinionated
10:02:57  <TrueBrain> _dp_: you are a different type of player, clearly :D
10:03:12  <_dp_> xD
10:03:18  <Wolf01> I'm for: new features are welcome, if they won't change the normal way to play, just don't use them if you don't like them
10:03:24  <andythenorth> things change
10:03:39  <andythenorth> hmm sometimes they stop changing also, 2020 phone is about same as 2010
10:03:50  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: well, that might be too easy, honestly. And the problem there is human nature. If I can have copy/paste to create junctions quick, why would I do it manually, to name one?
10:03:56  <TrueBrain> it is very hard for a human to not use it in that case
10:04:21  <TrueBrain> but for some a lot of fun is gained from creating junctions
10:04:27  <andythenorth> I think what Frosch wrote here was a very good addition to running the project, even if I'm the only one who reads it
10:04:29  <TrueBrain> others, especially with NewGRFs, it is more about creating beautiful networks
10:04:46  <andythenorth> "Allow extending the gameplay with add-ons / mods via supported content APIs"
10:05:02  <Wolf01> I could take C:S as an example, I could copy/paste road junctions, but I like more to create them manually, roundabouts instead are different and I use the mod to create them easily
10:05:06  <TrueBrain> but here is the problem .. something like copy/paste cannot be done via an API currently, and is also not likely to be made possible :)
10:05:27  <andythenorth> I don't see the rationale for hostility to copy-paste
10:05:42  <andythenorth> there is a bit of baggage around 'players should have to do work or it's not fun' in openttd
10:05:53  <TrueBrain> the problem how I see it .. we have one box, and we put all kind of different players in the same
10:05:57  <TrueBrain> and are surprised one group complains :P
10:05:58  <andythenorth> I have no use for copy-paste in my game, does that make it bad?
10:06:09  <andythenorth> discord is really nice to be in at the moment
10:06:25  <TrueBrain> what I would personally like, that you can select the type of player you are
10:06:27  <andythenorth> there is a triangle of different chat
10:06:30  <TrueBrain> and the game adjusts itself based on that
10:06:44  <TrueBrain> you want to do some roleplaying? Sure!
10:06:50  <andythenorth> at one extreme, there are people hacking newgrfs for maximum speed run, currently they win in about 1.2s
10:06:54  <TrueBrain> you rather just make millions really easy? Sure!
10:07:05  <TrueBrain> Factorio is just an awesome example for this btw
10:07:09  <TrueBrain> I like seablock games
10:07:11  <Wolf01> OpenTTD is really a good game, it's sandbox enough to let players decide their own way to play it, and I like it so
10:07:14  <andythenorth> at the other extreme there is a guy building a scale model of Germany and all timetabled DB trains, and another doing same for UK
10:07:33  <andythenorth> in the 3rd corner are new players learning about signals and orders
10:07:47  <TrueBrain> so yes, the README states nicely what to consider
10:07:55  <TrueBrain> but for a bunch of features we currently have not a way to allow them
10:07:58  <TrueBrain> like all the GUI changes
10:08:07  <andythenorth> so we don't have moddable / scriptable UI
10:08:20  <TrueBrain> we have some snippets for that, like GS can
10:08:26  <andythenorth> so baby steps
10:08:28  <andythenorth> we could learn from
10:09:00  <TrueBrain> there is a related problem .. we cannot really do A/B testing
10:09:07  <TrueBrain> which means what-ever we do, it is an opinion of a few
10:09:39  <TrueBrain> and if you just start dumping every feature in the game behind settings, soon you won't have a game to call a game :D
10:10:09  <TrueBrain> so I come back to: the best games are those who allow total conversion
10:10:14  <TrueBrain> take Minecraft, take Factorio, take ...
10:10:37  <Wolf01> Just don't put them behind a setting, but still make them optional to use, for example timetables, there is a button on the order interface, if you don't like them don't use them
10:10:46  <andythenorth> the settings are bad crack, frosch already wrote about that many times
10:10:46  <Wolf01> No need to make a setting to enable/disable them
10:10:51  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: there is a finite amount of things you can do like that
10:10:54  <andythenorth> settings end up being not orthogonal
10:11:04  <andythenorth> so in the name of progress, we inhibit future progress
10:11:08  <TrueBrain> we cannot have 100 buttons on the window, for all the different players
10:11:22  <TrueBrain> like we now have a PR for auto separation
10:11:31  <TrueBrain> which looks nice, but is yet-another-button
10:11:46  <andythenorth> so this is 2 topics now I think
10:11:56  <andythenorth> one is 'how can we get some testers'
10:12:07  <andythenorth> and the other is 'what is quality, in OpenTTD'
10:12:22  <TrueBrain> I really do not care about testers, honestly. I need people who give their opinion on a subject :)
10:12:26  <TrueBrain> (people who play the game :P)
10:12:39  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> which means what-ever we do, it is an opinion of a few <- this is another thing I can't understand, yes, the official build is a mirror of the devs opinions, but the game is open source, there is JGR patch pack and other ones too with a lot of different features, and people play them
10:12:40  <TrueBrain> game-reviewers, might be a better word :)
10:13:09  <andythenorth> ok, so change the word :)
10:13:12  <TrueBrain> the people that play JGR is a minority (not meant with any disrespect)
10:13:32  <TrueBrain> but you want a game to remain a game
10:13:35  <TrueBrain> and this has always been a battle
10:13:43  <andythenorth> democracy means open to everyone....but decisions get made by those who turn up
10:13:58  <andythenorth> and open source doesn't even have to be a democracy...
10:13:59  <_dp_> I guess I'll include c&p in cmclient 1.11 and see what happens xD
10:14:28  <TrueBrain> the base game, without modifications, with default settings, should be an enjoyable game to play, in my opinion
10:14:55  <andythenorth> yes!
10:14:56  <andythenorth> it is !
10:15:33  <TrueBrain> take this PR:
10:15:38  <TrueBrain> for a new players, that is just a bad idea
10:15:40  <andythenorth> give or take some odd things, that could be written down and fixed as small incremental improvements
10:16:04  <Wolf01> That's just lazyness
10:16:10  <TrueBrain> but I understand a veteran would love to have that
10:16:14  <_dp_> enjoyment is subjective though...
10:16:36  <_dp_> I don't like building stuff for example :p
10:16:57  <TrueBrain> and I like coop a lot, as in: an infrastructure sharing patch I once wrote
10:17:00  <TrueBrain> one person makes the infra
10:17:02  <Wolf01> I wouldn't like to have that, even if I'm a veteran, and because of that I know it will lead for train crashes for sure
10:17:04  <TrueBrain> the other builds the trains
10:17:23  <andythenorth> hmm
10:17:24  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: but you are just 1 player; another veteran thinks differently about those things :)
10:17:28  <andythenorth> we lack telemetry
10:17:34  <TrueBrain> we cannot possibly fit all the types of gameplay in a single base game
10:17:39  <TrueBrain> that will never ever be possible :P
10:17:44  <andythenorth> I was going to propose 'feature lives or dies by whether it gets used'
10:17:45  <TrueBrain> (and this is said in the README :D)
10:17:47  <andythenorth> but we don't have telemetry
10:17:53  <TrueBrain> even that is a bad idea :)
10:18:09  <TrueBrain> what I am trying to get at: we, as a small group, cannot state how others should play
10:18:17  <TrueBrain> but we can also not just add every feature and "use it if you like"
10:18:26  <TrueBrain> hence .. modding!
10:18:29  <andythenorth> +1
10:18:34  <andythenorth> really
10:18:38  <Wolf01> We shouldn't add things which lead to bad play style or putting it in american "nobody warned me which doing that could lead to..."
10:18:42  <andythenorth> pls, send me link to newsletter
10:19:19  <TrueBrain> "We shouldn't add things which lead to bad play style" <- define "bad play style" .. as that is an opinion :D
10:19:34  <Wolf01> Auto remove a signal is a bad play style
10:19:39  <TrueBrain> I believe I once got kicked from openttdcoop for .. doing things ... "wrong" :P
10:19:43  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: in your opinion
10:19:46  <TrueBrain> and that is fine :)
10:19:51  <TrueBrain> clearly, someone strongly disagrees with you :P
10:19:55  <TrueBrain> (he took the effort to make a PR!)
10:20:13  <_dp_> even I disagree with that :p
10:20:29  <TrueBrain> it is a sandbox .. taste defines your game play :)
10:20:43  <_dp_> it may not be on the top of my list of the most annoying things but it's defenitely near xD
10:20:52  <Wolf01> Even auto remove a river is a bad play style, it happened to me a lot by mistake
10:21:12  <TrueBrain> you have to learn to add: "I consider a bad play style" :) It is not a fact :) It is an opinion ;)
10:21:35  <andythenorth> +1
10:21:35  <Wolf01> It's implicit
10:21:50  <andythenorth> I think it's implicit, but I'm often wrong
10:22:07  <andythenorth> I confuse people who see my strong opinion, and think I can't empathise with other play styles
10:22:16  <andythenorth> so it's worth making it explicit
10:22:56  <andythenorth> this is really very different to this :D
10:23:09  <TrueBrain> stating opinions as facts mostly means people don't dare to disagree, as they think they disagree with a fact :) Humans are weird :P
10:23:54  <TrueBrain> anyway, zooming out a bit: the README states pretty damn nice how vanilla OpenTTD operates
10:23:59  <TrueBrain> and that is completely fine
10:24:12  <TrueBrain> we lack people investing in creating a framework for modifications of some parts
10:24:29  <TrueBrain> but that is more a matter of .. promoting that type of change
10:24:40  <TrueBrain> for example: move the fucking economy into a GS and be done with it :P
10:24:44  <_dp_> wasm! xD
10:25:07  <TrueBrain> transform the whole game to WASM only and allow extensions via WASM, yes please :P
10:25:42  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> we lack people investing in creating a framework for modifications of some parts <- the idea was to remove everything from the game and re-add it as a modification :P
10:25:54  <TrueBrain> it does solve most problems, yes
10:26:00  <TrueBrain> just .. performance is a bit of an issue :P
10:26:21  <Wolf01> That's not my field :P
10:26:31  <_dp_> nah, you don't need to transform the whole game... only half :p
10:26:39  <_dp_> rip out newgrfs and put wasm there :p
10:26:48  <andythenorth> I would buy into that
10:26:59  <andythenorth> but I'm not sure what the 'why' is
10:27:06  <andythenorth> sounds like a solution, not an outcome
10:27:15  <andythenorth> implementation / solution /s
10:27:24  <TrueBrain> what you want, is a higher-level language to make modifications, which can be compiled to what-ever OpenTTD needs to execute it
10:27:37  <TrueBrain> NewGRFs, GS, WASM, ...
10:27:40  <TrueBrain> it shouldn't matter
10:27:46  <andythenorth> oddly enough we have some huge mods that are mostly abstracted from the newgrf spec :P
10:27:52  <andythenorth> funny that
10:27:56  <TrueBrain> but okay, that idea came and went a few months ago :P
10:28:07  <_dp_> TrueBrain, SANE higher-level language :p
10:28:16  <TrueBrain> NML is NOT a higher-level language (sorry)
10:28:21  <TrueBrain> well, it is "higher"
10:28:27  <TrueBrain> but not in the classic definition :D
10:28:38  <andythenorth> NML is a markup language, really
10:28:43  <andythenorth> it's just XHTML
10:29:06  <andythenorth> nooooo....let's not debate that trolling point
10:29:21  <TrueBrain> well, this would have been good for a livestream, but I guess here it is already ;)
10:30:00  <TrueBrain> so to come back to your original idea andythenorth , no I do not think a "bleeding edge" branch is going to change much
10:30:08  <_dp_> it's perpetually here :p
10:30:10  <TrueBrain> as our problem is more in: what do we consider part of the base game
10:30:19  <andythenorth> I wondered a different angle
10:30:26  <andythenorth> what *couldn't* be made content-ish?
10:30:33  <andythenorth> - network code?
10:30:35  <andythenorth> - saveload?
10:30:39  <andythenorth> - pathfinding?
10:30:45  <TrueBrain> network code is simple to make scriptable
10:30:49  <TrueBrain> same with saveload
10:30:52  <_dp_> README xD
10:30:54  <TrueBrain> they both already are, kinda
10:30:54  <andythenorth> - blitter?
10:31:05  <TrueBrain> see, blitter should always be part of the core game
10:31:15  <TrueBrain> more to argue: map-bits
10:31:26  <TrueBrain> in the current setup, that cannot be pushed to a mod
10:33:46  <TrueBrain> but yeah, full circle: the README describes how to judge PRs
10:33:54  <TrueBrain> but closing the UI PRs with: someone should make this scriptable
10:33:58  <TrueBrain> is difficult :)
10:34:27  <andythenorth> so what *shouldn't* be moddable?
10:34:50  <TrueBrain> blitter, sorter, map
10:34:54  <TrueBrain> (for now)
10:35:06  <TrueBrain> audio / video basically
10:35:21  <andythenorth> I started playing OpenTTD exactly when people started to switch from TTDP to OpenTTD
10:35:23  <TrueBrain> fonts, rendering, ... :P
10:35:39  <andythenorth> the commitment to content was a big reason I think OpenTTD got the playerbase
10:35:55  <TrueBrain> we strongly disagree on history there, but that is not a discussion for now :)
10:35:58  <andythenorth> we'd tend to look at 'TTDP patch developers lost interest' and 'the code was getting too complex' but eh
10:36:17  <andythenorth> I never even considered TTDP, OpenTTD was clearly just cooler
10:36:42  <andythenorth> holdouts all be like 'custom bridgeheads, programmable signals'
10:36:51  <andythenorth> andythenorth be like 'yes but UKRS2 and NARS'
10:36:54  <TrueBrain> I am going to ignore your current story, and just continue with the previous ;)
10:36:58  <TrueBrain> <- we need more PRs like this
10:37:41  <_dp_> I need more pr's like this! xD
10:37:47  <TrueBrain> one of the more annoying issues for me is, that you can only have 1 GS (a correct limitation btw)
10:37:48  <_dp_> not sure anyone else does :p
10:38:00  <Wolf01> I played TTDP a lot before OpenTTD but at a certain point I felt like it was missing the will of improve, maybe really because "it couldn't be done"
10:38:09  <TrueBrain> as what I would love to do, is take the whole inflation blablabla code out, and put it in a GS
10:38:14  <TrueBrain> and just auto-download it, or what-ever
10:38:17  <andythenorth> TrueBrain +1
10:38:37  <TrueBrain> would remove it completely as setting too
10:38:38  <andythenorth> 'economy' has a proper-domain problem
10:38:40  <TrueBrain> done with that inflation crap
10:38:47  <andythenorth> it's pulled between GS, client, and newgrf
10:38:53  <andythenorth> we talked about this once and you made a spec
10:38:59  <_dp_> TrueBrain, yep, a lot of "original" game mechanics can just go into a mod of some kind
10:39:15  <TrueBrain> I did that with the AI ... so many places in the code was doing special shit for the AI
10:39:17  <TrueBrain> it was hilarious
10:39:24  <_dp_> what I'd like to see for a base game is a very extensible sandbox
10:39:30  <TrueBrain> ^^
10:39:33  <andythenorth> +99
10:39:41  <TrueBrain> this was the motion back in 2007-2009
10:39:49  <TrueBrain> but progress slowed :D
10:39:54  <andythenorth> my point about TTDP was only 'why did we lose momentum'
10:40:09  <andythenorth> like...getting a newgrf patch in now is like pulling teeth
10:40:20  <andythenorth> and repeat for other things
10:41:08  <TrueBrain> so regarding new features .. a lot of them balance between: this should be in a mod, but currently you cannot do that, so .. we accept it? or deny it?
10:41:22  <andythenorth> if I was king (fortunately am not)
10:41:26  <TrueBrain> is a good example of that
10:41:27  <andythenorth> *mostly* deny
10:41:32  <andythenorth> accept a few to keep things moving
10:41:37  <TrueBrain> but with denying, you halt innovation too
10:41:39  <andythenorth> defer most of the rest to patchpacks like JGR
10:41:45  <TrueBrain> which leads to this whole conversation :D
10:41:55  <andythenorth> depends if we think we can evolve the content APIs
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10:42:05  <andythenorth> if the content APIs have gone down a dead end, and are stuck
10:42:15  <andythenorth> then open the floodgates, accept anything that isn't broken
10:42:21  <TrueBrain> what would be nice to solve, is to have cooperative GSes, of sorts
10:42:22  <andythenorth> because the game is fucked anyway at that point
10:42:27  <TrueBrain> no clue how that would look btw, but .. yeah
10:42:38  <andythenorth> if we can get the content APIs off life support, then we have a future :D
10:42:49  <_dp_> TrueBrain, you mean ones that work with each other?
10:42:57  <TrueBrain> _dp_: yup
10:43:05  <TrueBrain> so one that does town growth
10:43:12  <TrueBrain> one that does economy
10:43:15  <TrueBrain> or one that does both
10:43:26  <andythenorth> we looked before at ideas like claiming 'write' for parts of the API
10:43:32  <andythenorth> but it all seemed kind of odd
10:43:55  <TrueBrain> Factorio just lets mods deal with the issue :P
10:44:24  <TrueBrain> but yes, it is a difficult issue to solve for OpenTTD
10:44:29  <andythenorth> it's a known problem in computing no?  Either you can write to another programme's memory space, or you're 100% sandboxed?
10:44:40  <andythenorth> the first one has....consequences
10:44:45  <TrueBrain> it is a bit more subtle for OpenTTD
10:44:57  <TrueBrain> for example, you could have that a town gets assigned to a GS with TownGrowth routines
10:45:03  <TrueBrain> no problem if you have 20 GSes
10:45:06  <TrueBrain> just 1 town has 1 GS assigned
10:45:15  <TrueBrain> which is a bit the middle ground from what you describe
10:45:31  <andythenorth> hmm
10:45:34  <TrueBrain> (we do that with companies now, and assigning AIs)
10:45:41  <andythenorth> reminds me of trying to compose modules in music systems
10:45:46  <andythenorth> like Midi modules and stuff
10:45:54  <andythenorth> 'you have 8 soundbank slots, what do you want in them'
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10:46:30  <TrueBrain> but yeah, lot of conflict resolvement is needed :)
10:46:55  <TrueBrain> NewGRFs work like this too btw
10:47:01  <TrueBrain> multiple can work in the same domain
10:47:18  <andythenorth>
10:47:29  <TrueBrain> well, I can see this happening for towns .. instead of "GS", it is more like a TownAI
10:47:43  <TrueBrain> a GS can register 1 or more Town AIs, for all I care :P
10:47:45  <andythenorth> so the proper boundary of the sandbox could be town
10:48:00  <TrueBrain> in the same way a vehicle is assigned to a NewGRF, so to say
10:48:18  <andythenorth> nielsm had a related idea for an entity we don't have...'regions'
10:48:25  <andythenorth> which could be arbitrary
10:48:32  <andythenorth> so a script can influence a block of map tiles
10:48:35  <TrueBrain> multi-climate maps!
10:48:43  <_dp_> biomes! xD
10:48:46  <TrueBrain> :D
10:48:50  <andythenorth> well...
10:49:01  <TrueBrain> this is an OpenTTD that would work btw, all these ideas
10:49:08  <TrueBrain> but the current set of features in PRs .... do not
10:49:38  <andythenorth> I would continue accepting certain features just to show progress and encourage good contributors
10:49:55  <andythenorth> but I would be much happier to see content API transformed :P
10:49:55  <_dp_> they're too big for the current situation unfortunately
10:50:20  <andythenorth> I would want to know for PRs, 'does this set us in stone'
10:50:28  <andythenorth> or can it be removed / changed / moved to content later?
10:50:52  <TrueBrain> yeah, but that means we never get those APIs :)
10:50:58  <andythenorth> hmm
10:51:00  <TrueBrain> as there is zero incentive :)
10:51:13  <TrueBrain> take the "disable economy" PR
10:51:19  <TrueBrain> in this idea, that should never been merged
10:51:20  * _dp_ looks at his "wasm" branch
10:51:22  <_dp_> sigh....
10:51:28  <TrueBrain> as we should make an API that controls it
10:51:33  <TrueBrain> it is just easier to merge that now
10:51:36  <andythenorth> tangent: is there a rationale for not moving the original vehicles to newgrf?  I've offered to help do it multiple times, but I can't remember why I was told it was a bad idea
10:51:40  <TrueBrain> but it motivates nobody to make that API :)
10:51:53  <andythenorth> something something, we can't ship it
10:51:53  <Wolf01> What about trying to write down a roadmap?
10:52:28  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am honestly curious about that reasons why that is a bad idea; I can think of a few that need some attention, but yeah :)
10:52:37  <TrueBrain> _dp_: if you already have that, would be nice/funny, honestly :D
10:52:41  <TrueBrain> URL?
10:52:41  <andythenorth> I have a mental list of things that confused new players
10:52:53  <andythenorth> repeatedly, adding FIRS or ECS and having no vehicles
10:52:54  <_dp_> TrueBrain, it's pretty much empty...
10:52:55  <Wolf01> Share?
10:53:02  <TrueBrain> _dp_: whhhyyyyyyy :P
10:53:07  <_dp_> TrueBrain, I'm mostly experimenting with building tools atm
10:53:12  <_dp_> and other ui
10:53:31  <TrueBrain> I so would like to be able to have mods change the OpenTTD UI btw ..
10:53:37  <TrueBrain> I don't want the close button where it is
10:53:39  <andythenorth> +1
10:53:48  <andythenorth> even Apple allows modding the UI
10:53:58  <andythenorth> the perception is they don't, but my UI is customised
10:54:07  <andythenorth> there are endless prefs files buried in macOS
10:54:23  <_dp_> idk, imo, ui is not the part that needs modding the most
10:54:27  <andythenorth> what they don't expose billions of settings to Grandma
10:54:40  <TrueBrain> _dp_: that depends on how much it frustrates you :P :P
10:54:43  <andythenorth> nor do they care about breaking history
10:55:03  <_dp_> or rather, it needs ui for mods but not modding base ui...
10:55:06  <Samu> wow TrueBrain closed 8009
10:55:13  <TrueBrain> anyway, most active devs used to be 18 year-olds with a lot of free time ... we need more of those again :)
10:55:14  <Samu> oh well :( so much tinkering for nothing
10:55:32  <Wolf01> I would like the mods to be able to define their own UI or inject stuff into the current one, but not how the UI appear or works :P
10:55:36  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I called it!
10:55:44  <andythenorth> Samu no, you learnt something!
10:55:46  <_dp_> TrueBrain, yeah, preferabbly with at least 5 years of experience :p
10:55:52  <andythenorth> shipping is not the outcome!
10:56:01  <Wolf01> It's more a question of consistency and to not have different mods incompatible because they want to change the same thing
10:56:15  <Samu> it's not that much different to the problem that existed with road vehicles approaching their destination
10:57:12  <TrueBrain> Wolf01 / _dp_ : you are fully allowed to have your own opinion about modding base UI, but damn, it would be awesome to have :D I can fully picture it ... a mod can say where the close button is .. what double-click does ...
10:57:24  <Wolf01> Or at least, if you want to mod the UI appearance you have a theme grf, and only one loaded at a time
10:57:29  <TrueBrain> owh, the joy I will have to not have everything in reverse from what I am used to :P
10:57:34  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yes!
10:57:58  <andythenorth> scriptable UI :D
10:58:08  <TrueBrain> but as we are talking about this, I think that is the general solution .. have 1 script assigned per domain entity
10:58:13  <_dp_> TrueBrain, well, I have cmclient for that :p
10:58:22  <_dp_> but I guess it counts as a mod of sorts...
10:58:25  <TrueBrain> :D
10:58:29  <andythenorth> TrueBrain so we just make a list of entities....
10:58:31  <andythenorth> done!
10:59:07  <Samu> what was wrong with my wording of the issue? the docking tile is one problem, and the ship curve penalty is another
10:59:18  <Samu> both contribute to "ship is lost"
10:59:37  <Samu> that PR works on the docking tile problem
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11:00:12  <TrueBrain> _dp_: are there good libraries to embed wasm in applications btw?
11:00:14  <Samu> i didn't work on the ship curve penalty, because that can be easily adjusted with setting different costs
11:00:43  <_dp_> TrueBrain, there are some, didn't use enough to tell if they're good
11:01:01  <TrueBrain> as that would solve performance issues for certain parts :P
11:01:34  <_dp_> not sure about "solve" but shouldn't make it worse at the very least xD
11:02:13  <TrueBrain> fair enough :D
11:02:22  <TrueBrain> I am so tempted to fork OpenTTD, you have no idea :P
11:02:28  <andythenorth> +1
11:02:39  * _dp_ already has 2 forks :p
11:02:45  <andythenorth> it's the in-thing
11:03:04  <andythenorth> if I was such a devloloper I would have done a patchpack
11:03:08  <andythenorth> wasn't *
11:03:11  * andythenorth can't even type
11:03:16  <TrueBrain> I am not interested in creating a patch pack
11:03:20  <TrueBrain> 0.00000 interest :P
11:04:15  <andythenorth> OpenTTDToo
11:04:15  <_dp_> well, I kinda have to... there's a lot of cb and other goal-specific stuff that doesn't rly belong in the base game...
11:04:23  <andythenorth> MoreOpenTTD
11:04:26  <Wolf01> NotOpenTTD
11:04:31  <andythenorth> TrueBrain the name is the important thing
11:04:32  <andythenorth> we trust you
11:04:34  <_dp_> not until it gets moddable ui and everything at least :p
11:04:38  <andythenorth> but we need to decide the name together
11:04:56  <andythenorth> the rest is all...fine
11:05:03  <TrueBrain> I have frosch123 to pick names for me :P
11:05:20  <andythenorth> TruOpenTTD
11:05:28  <andythenorth> OpenTruTD
11:05:35  <andythenorth> hmm radical solution
11:05:38  <andythenorth> OpenTTD?
11:05:57  <_dp_> OpenTTD cash! :p
11:07:42  <TrueBrain> "Pause on savegame load if ctrl key is pressed." <- some patches in JGRPP are cute :)
11:07:47  <TrueBrain> I wonder how many people use that functionality :)
11:08:09  <_dp_> hm... I made a setting for that...
11:08:09  <Wolf01> What about allowing players to decide a feature to be merged every now and then?
11:08:10  <andythenorth> telemetry!
11:08:39  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: that is how this conversation started :D
11:08:46  <Wolf01> Oh, right
11:08:48  <TrueBrain> it is why were considering a livestream
11:08:53  <TrueBrain> but andythenorth made most of that mute now :P
11:09:19  <_dp_>
11:09:52  <_dp_> quite useful for debugging, especially desyncs
11:09:59  <TrueBrain> same problem, different solution :D
11:11:24  <_dp_> btw, when is the livestream?
11:11:40  <_dp_> mb I'll prepare some stuff to talk about too
11:11:45  <andythenorth> this week
11:11:46  <_dp_> not that I can talk well...
11:11:52  <andythenorth> I think we get a better stream now
11:12:01  <andythenorth> so many meta issues could have derailed it
11:13:00  <TrueBrain> _dp_: not talk well, as in, volume-wise, or english-wise? :)
11:13:09  <TrueBrain> as when you hear my accent, you are going to laugh so hard :P
11:13:13  <_dp_> english
11:13:19  <_dp_> 0 practice :(
11:13:43  <TrueBrain> I haven't spoken English in months :D
11:13:49  <TrueBrain> but that doesn't stop me, I promise you :P
11:14:04  <_dp_> well, yeah, but I haven't spoken like ... ever :p
11:14:12  <Wolf01> Use a text to speech :P
11:14:21  <TrueBrain> okay, that is a higher barrier :)
11:14:38  <TrueBrain> well, one day has to be the first of many more to come :P
11:15:05  <TrueBrain> regarding livestream: technically it is all setup, I have the script in my head, will write it down today .. need to make some scenes to make it a bit pretty
11:15:11  <TrueBrain> other than that, we mainly have to test it out :p
11:17:00  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I usually imagine you are my friend Peter
11:17:43  <andythenorth> wrt accent :P
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11:39:24  * andythenorth went looking in the past
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11:47:03  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: much worse :P
11:47:16  <andythenorth> well we'll know soon enough
11:47:43  <TrueBrain> pam pam pammmmm
11:47:57  <TrueBrain> only problem, I lack motivation today
11:48:03  <andythenorth> it's interesting in the older changelogs
11:48:07  <andythenorth> they're often huge
11:48:27  <andythenorth> but many of the changes are fixes to gameplay additions in the client
11:48:43  <andythenorth> e.g. "Fix: smooth economy was still broken" etc
11:49:08  <andythenorth> (made up example)
11:49:46  * andythenorth needs some kind of map
11:52:58  <TrueBrain> tried ?
11:53:19  <andythenorth> thanks I will look
11:53:57  <andythenorth> I use stuff like this for changing systems
11:54:02  <andythenorth>
11:54:09  <andythenorth>
11:54:18  <andythenorth> usually with a pencil and 1 or 2 sheets of A4 paper
11:54:35  <andythenorth> complex software is more like a factory, but tends to be modelled as a maths problem
11:54:40  <andythenorth> doesn't help
11:54:51  <andythenorth> or we automate producing docs, to save time, which tells us what it is
11:54:56  <andythenorth> but not what it should be
12:01:15  <andythenorth> but maps you say?,+Svalbard+and+Jan+Mayen/
12:02:32  <LordAro> andythenorth:
12:02:51  <TrueBrain> lol ... do I want to know why you knew that? :P
12:02:54  <andythenorth> oo
12:03:10  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i didn't, but it seemed like the sort of place that would already have one
12:03:14  * andythenorth must now play OpenTTD
12:03:16  <TrueBrain> lol
12:03:30  <andythenorth> extensive steel industry required on one arctic island
12:04:09  <LordAro> link is dead though
12:04:20  <andythenorth> boo it's a scenario not a heightmap
12:05:45  <LordAro> website is super obnoxious
12:07:09  <andythenorth> scriptable UI....scriptable economy
12:07:15  <andythenorth> what about....daylength!
12:07:26  * andythenorth looking for interesting / difficult cases
12:08:06  <LordAro> s scriptable daylength
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12:09:43  <_dp_> scriptable life :p
12:11:09  <andythenorth> it would be trivial for newgrf industry to support a production multiplier
12:11:22  <andythenorth> which seems to be a dependency for daylength patches
12:11:50  * andythenorth just using this as example, not trying to spec daylength
12:11:55  <LordAro> mm
12:12:05  <andythenorth> like...what are the core loops of the game?
12:12:15  <andythenorth> and what frequency, and how do they communicate?
12:16:10  <andythenorth> there's probably pacemaker loops drawing to the screen, and for responding to user input, and for network code?
12:16:59  <milek7> there's one loop
12:20:08  <andythenorth> is there a completion-time goal for the loop?
12:20:17  <andythenorth> one loop seems...unusual
12:22:48  <LordAro> @calc 1/30
12:22:49  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 0.03333333333333333
12:22:58  <LordAro> ^ that many ms
12:22:58  <nielsm> the entire game runs single-threaded, there really isn't much parallelism at all
12:23:30  <andythenorth> I guess my question needs clarifying
12:23:41  <andythenorth> it's always possible to draw a production system as one loop
12:23:44  <nielsm> but you're talking about gameplay right?
12:23:46  <andythenorth> input -> box -> output
12:23:52  <andythenorth> but there are usually subsidiary loops
12:23:56  <andythenorth> and they usually interact
12:24:32  <andythenorth> like...there isn't just one loop, because already we know there's a resource-limited AI loop, and a GS loop
12:24:37  <andythenorth> and periodic loops
12:25:22  <andythenorth> nielsm I don't know what I'm talking about :)
12:26:35  <andythenorth> this" target="_blank"> is the same loop as" target="_blank">
12:26:59  <andythenorth> but one is more interesting for making changes
12:27:13  <TrueBrain> you might be better off learning some CS terms, instead of trying to use terms from a completely different industry :P It might be just me :D
12:27:47  <andythenorth> I did wonder
12:27:58  <andythenorth> or CS could learn some terms from systems analysis :P
12:28:15  <andythenorth> but I have to work with the audience here so...
12:28:20  <TrueBrain> you would be surprised how complete CS is in a lot of this stuff :)
12:30:10  <andythenorth> ok let's translate!
12:30:20  <andythenorth> we have a complex system and we don't have a map!
12:30:24  <andythenorth> but we have lots of code
12:30:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8398: Change: Distribute left over cargo to stations according to the highest remainder
12:31:00  <andythenorth> so like...what do we do to make changes?
12:31:02  <andythenorth> UML or something?
12:32:59  <andythenorth> should I be reading?
12:33:13  <TrueBrain> what are you trying to solve, is the first question :)
12:33:51  <andythenorth> having a map of some kind, pictures...words...anything
12:34:03  <andythenorth> so that we can look at the whole
12:34:04  <TrueBrain> that is a solution; what are you trying to solve :)
12:34:10  <andythenorth> not the implentation of a part
12:34:24  <andythenorth> ask me why :P
12:34:26  <milek7>
12:36:18  <andythenorth> why do you want a map andythenorth?
12:36:30  <andythenorth> well because it might be cool
12:36:49  <andythenorth> but also because we might understand how to change things that interact, instead of being stuck with local maxima
12:36:58  <andythenorth> why do we want do that?
12:37:03  <andythenorth> because it might be cool
12:37:10  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what are you, 5? "ask me this ask me this" .. please :P
12:38:03  <andythenorth> yes it's quite funny
12:38:20  <milek7> map of what? call graph?
12:39:36  <andythenorth> map of where we want OpenTTD to be
12:39:39  <andythenorth> could just be words
12:39:42  <andythenorth> call it plan
12:39:43  <andythenorth> idea
12:39:45  <andythenorth> whatever works
12:39:48  <TrueBrain> that is a completely different map :P
12:39:49  <andythenorth> but not spec
12:39:53  <andythenorth> spec comes after that
12:40:04  <andythenorth> vision, whatever shit works
12:40:14  <TrueBrain> so you are looking for an architectural picture?
12:40:16  <andythenorth> vision is management nonsense usually :P
12:40:19  <andythenorth> architecture!
12:40:19  <andythenorth> yes
12:40:35  <andythenorth> but not as like 'C++ classes' architecture, or UML
12:40:42  <andythenorth> more like 'how it all fits'
12:41:38  <LordAro> such a diagram would have to be manually created, or be extremely complex
12:41:40  <LordAro> i think
12:42:08  <andythenorth> what would be simpler?
12:42:22  <andythenorth> like...we could draw how the client works with bananas really quickly, yes/no?
12:42:31  <andythenorth> like 5 boxes and arrows
12:42:53  <TrueBrain> more a problem you are asking me to do my dayjob, free of charge :P
12:42:59  <andythenorth> or mine :P
12:43:26  <andythenorth> ok I pay you, and you pay me, and we're square?
12:43:39  <andythenorth> just ask for donations on livestream?
12:43:59  <TrueBrain> corona made me pretty round, honestly
12:44:24  <andythenorth> there's some term for that
12:44:29  * andythenorth can't remember it
12:44:36  <TrueBrain> fat
12:44:43  <andythenorth> ouch
12:45:09  <milek7> TrueBrain: just not sure if you noticed, around 00:41 I had written something about keyauth
12:45:21  <andythenorth> like...we could delete inflation and move it to GS, right?  So that would be nice incremental improvement
12:45:35  <TrueBrain> milek7: I saw it, yes, tnx :) Did not read it yet .. having a day of not wanting to do ANYTHING :D :D
12:45:54  * andythenorth is avoiding making different ISO containers for newgrf trains
12:46:17  <andythenorth> and playing Blitz badly
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13:08:34  <Samu> I'm so bad at explaining things, I hope that reply makes sense
13:10:07  <Samu> my example doesn't help my cause
13:10:40  <Samu> oh, nvm, it helps. 2nd station has less rating than the first
13:12:11  * Timberwolf needs newgrf telemetry.
13:13:13  <andythenorth> hmm I fail too much at Blitz
13:26:32  <_dp_> andythenorth, we can't move inflation to GS right now, it works asynchronously and can't be used for fully implementing gameplay stuff
13:26:39  <_dp_> gs can only flip the switch basically
13:26:54  <TrueBrain> it has no callbacks, basically?
13:26:58  <_dp_> but in case of inflation it already can do that and it solvess nothing
13:27:07  <_dp_> TrueBrain, yep
13:27:16  <TrueBrain> event-based :D
13:27:33  <_dp_> pain-based :p
13:27:41  <TrueBrain> my main issue is, I do not understand NewGRF
13:27:46  <TrueBrain> it is just ... weird to me :P
13:28:04  <_dp_> I kinda do... but it's still weird xD
13:29:49  <TrueBrain> using Squirrel for callbacks will be rather annoying
13:30:11  <TrueBrain> so a NewGRF is the next candidate
13:30:19  <TrueBrain> I just have no clue if you can program like inflation into a NewGRF :D
13:30:52  <_dp_> newgrfs is kind of a right thing with performance and sandboxing but then it was just hacked into a graphics format
13:31:26  <TrueBrain> this is why I think this can only be really solved by making a high-level language
13:31:35  <TrueBrain> which can be transformed to what-ever is needed from OpenTTD to do its job
13:32:43  <michi_cc> I think we had that point before :) A high level language would definitely be nice, but even Java/Rust/C++/whatever end up as CPU opcodes, so it doesn't invalidate NewGRF itself.
13:32:56  <TrueBrain> exactly my point :)
13:33:15  <TrueBrain> it wouldn't surprise me if it translates into NewGRF
13:33:15  <michi_cc> For the specific case of NewGRF economy, it's missing the proper CPU instructions though, but that is "just" a somebody has to do it thing.
13:33:42  <TrueBrain> what do you mean with CPU instructions in this case?
13:33:46  <TrueBrain> jnz? inc?
13:33:58  <michi_cc> Action 1/2/3 chains.
13:34:18  <michi_cc> With the right props, variables and callbacks.
13:34:19  <_dp_> I just feel it's much easier replacing it with wasm then building anything sane on top of newgrfs
13:34:24  <TrueBrain> wish I knew what that meant :D Have to read NewGRF specs some day ... :P
13:34:46  <TrueBrain> _dp_: how it is implemented in OpenTTD is not as relevant as how you write it, is my stance basically
13:34:51  <TrueBrain> wasm, squirrel, lua, NewGRF ..
13:35:17  <michi_cc> NewGRF is at a very high-level view just a decision tree.
13:35:38  <TrueBrain> ah; and storage? Slot-based? Stack-based?
13:35:45  <TrueBrain> (sorry for the stupid questions, but the specs are boring to read)
13:36:18  <michi_cc> Depends :) Mostly slot based, except for some quirky things like text stack.
13:36:36  <TrueBrain> so it really is a random collection of stuff :D
13:36:55  <nielsm> we really need to recruit a CS grad student to write a compiler from NewGRF to machine code
13:37:04  <nielsm> make a thesis of it
13:37:13  <TrueBrain> what good would that do? :)
13:37:20  <nielsm> performance!
13:37:26  <michi_cc> It is not a completely coherently defined structure, which is e.g. why NML doesn't do stations, as they are build completely different to all other features.
13:38:02  <TrueBrain> which makes totally sense given the history of NewGRF
13:38:45  <michi_cc> There might be arguments why the structure chosen for stations is better than the alternatives, but I don't write enough NewGRFs to know that :p
13:39:20  <_dp_> newgrfs are also terrible on api level atm, it basically feels like it was basicallyy haked into existing stuff
13:39:52  <TrueBrain> I think replacing NewGRF in any way shape or form is just creating a new problem, more than solving anything :)
13:39:54  <michi_cc> Yeah, feature 1 was written by TTDP developer A, feature 2 by developer B, and each did what they liked more/found easier at that time.
13:40:12  <TrueBrain> same with Squirrel btw
13:40:21  <TrueBrain> lua would have been better, in hindsight, but .. here we are :D
13:40:28  <_dp_> like instead of having api point with some default options it has some hardcoded stuff interacting weirdly with newgrf callback on top of it
13:40:32  <michi_cc> Later new features (like objects) tried to follow one of the existing structures and not invent a new structure.
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13:51:33  <LordAro> TrueBrain: how much effort to build a squirrelvm in lua? :p
13:51:35  <_dp_> TrueBrain, but it will be an exciting new problem using a modern technology
13:51:47  <_dp_> Ap
13:51:48  <_dp_> :p
13:54:40  <Timberwolf> Other than the convenience of being able to use NML, I sometimes find myself wishing roadtypes followed the same system as stations with the ground tile and layouts.
13:55:37  <Timberwolf> I spent a fair amount of time working around things where you always get a specific ground tile or things always appearing in a certain order to the sprite sorter.
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14:00:19  <Samu> this PR doesn't add a savegame conversion between the old setting with the new, why was this accepted? I thought that a conversion was needed
14:01:11  <Samu> just asking, not trying to offend
14:02:56  <FLHerne> Samu: It doesn't change the size or previous values of the stored setting, and only adds a new one
14:03:13  <glx> and the new values are compatible with the old ones
14:06:12  <Samu> hmm, but the setting name has changed, i wonder if the saveload does detect that
14:06:42  <Samu> better test it
14:07:04  <glx> andythenorth: the issue is really that you define way too much switches/spritesets before their real use, and indeed reordering them is the only viable solution (and probably will never be done by nmlc)
14:07:15  <andythenorth> glx thanks :)
14:07:53  <andythenorth> that must have been boring to look at all those switches
14:08:16  <glx> basically you defined all 16px, 24px and 32px before the first big 16px switch
14:08:27  <andythenorth> yup
14:08:45  <glx> so 24px and 32px just eats IDs without real need
14:08:49  <andythenorth> so 3x the required spritesets
14:09:01  <FLHerne> There's not really any reason NML shouldn't reorder those
14:09:18  <andythenorth> I'm potato / potato
14:09:27  <andythenorth> there's not really any reason newgrf authors shouldn't do that
14:09:29  <glx> nml can reorder, but it's not easy to do I think
14:09:37  <_dp_> Samu, setting name doesn't affect savegames, only size and position :p
14:09:53  <glx> it needs to analyse the references graph
14:10:37  <LordAro> _dp_: Samu's never let explanations get in the way of them testing something
14:11:12  <FLHerne> _dp_: I think Samu has a point though
14:11:26  <andythenorth> _dp_ "we can't move inflation to GS right now, it works asynchronously and can't be used for fully implementing gameplay stuff" so what would need to change?
14:11:30  <FLHerne> It won't break savegames, but it'll break people's config files?
14:11:38  <andythenorth> to be at the destination of 'can move inflation'? :)
14:12:20  <FLHerne> If people have chosen "smooth_economy = false", this will reset the behaviour in new games to smooth
14:12:45  <FLHerne> Unless I've also missed something
14:12:53  <_dp_> FLHerne, hm, interesting point, dunno if that will affect configs
14:13:09  <_dp_> but I know it has been done several times in the past
14:13:12  <Samu> also, "type" is such a generic name for the setting
14:14:07  <FLHerne> _dp_: Adding a new value has been done before, are you sure that renaming the setting at the same time has?
14:14:28  <FLHerne> (without some compat code)
14:14:54  <_dp_> hm, yeah, was thinking about size only here...
14:15:12  <_dp_> though I'm pretty sure there is no compat code for old config settings
14:20:02  <Samu> AIs retrieve this new setting via: AIGameSettings.GetValue("type")
14:20:19  <Samu> used to be AIGameSettings.GetValue("smooth_economy")
14:20:30  <Samu> type is a bit.... weak name
14:20:48  <_dp_> yeah, configs settings are changed easily
14:20:50  <_dp_>
14:26:20  <glx> <-- at least API is clear about settings :)
14:28:10  <glx> Samu: you can also use AIGameSettings.GetValue("economy.type") I think
14:30:00  <TrueBrain> <LordAro> TrueBrain: how much effort to build a squirrelvm in lua? :p <- are you weird or something? :P
14:31:16  <nielsm> transpile squirrel to lua
14:31:51  <frosch123> i would understand the other way around. lua is really crappy
14:32:01  <TrueBrain> nielsm: that would be the more sensible thing to do :P
14:32:03  <frosch123> squirrel left a way better impression on me
14:32:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: JavaScript is crappy too; but many people write it :D
14:32:25  <TrueBrain> that is the only thing I think lua fits better in a game atm :P
14:32:27  <andythenorth> is it lunchtime?
14:32:34  <TrueBrain> but I was by no way meaning to suggest OpenTTD should do that, to be clear :)
14:32:51  <TrueBrain> we just picked Squirrel over lua, as it was "lua with classes"
14:32:56  <andythenorth> transpile python to wasm :P
14:33:02  <TrueBrain> lua now has stuff like a JIT etc
14:33:06  <TrueBrain> because many more people use it
14:33:07  <andythenorth> and if other people want other things...transpile their own wasm
14:35:11  <TrueBrain> frosch123: from a language point of view btw, I always liked Squirrel more; it is a pretty clean language implementation :)
14:35:19  <TrueBrain> too bad we made too many changes that upgrading isn't trivial :p
14:36:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: my knowledge is 2 years old. but at that time lua had jit in an older unmaintained branch
14:36:57  <TrueBrain> don't know if lua officially has a JIT, but there are projects with small libraries that add a JIT to lua :)
14:37:02  * andythenorth lunch failed
14:37:28  <TrueBrain> for example is a drop-in replacement for Lua 5.1
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14:40:11  <LordAro> last time i checked, embedded lua was faster than embedded python
14:40:47  <TrueBrain> embedding Python is a death-sentence :P
14:40:50  <TrueBrain> just .. don't do it :D
14:41:14  <LordAro> too late
14:41:17  * LordAro cries a bit
14:41:22  <TrueBrain> yes ... I can imagine :P
14:41:31  <TrueBrain> there are Python implementations that do allow embedding real nice btw
14:41:36  <TrueBrain> just CPython is not that implementation :D
14:42:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] lexuslatvia opened issue #106: [lv_LV] Translator access request
14:42:59  <TrueBrain> that username :D
14:43:25  <LordAro> at least we know they're applying for the right language :p
14:45:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain commented on issue #106: [lv_LV] Translator access request
14:55:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination
14:56:33  <milek7> luajit is maintained, but only implementing lua 5.1
14:56:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8378: Remove undefined behaviour from save/load code
15:00:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] lexuslatvia opened issue #107: [ru_RU] Translator access request
15:00:53  <TrueBrain> well, now the name no longer matches the language
15:02:37  <andythenorth> has anyone made any roblox games? :)
15:04:40  <andythenorth> this is the more relevant part
15:04:41  <TrueBrain> I build Half-Life Multiplayer Mods .. does that help?
15:04:42  * andythenorth considering it
15:05:33  <TrueBrain> well, built, not build, but who is counting
15:06:07  <frosch123> haha, i found a 16 year old webcam in my storage room
15:06:17  <TrueBrain> now the question is: DOES IT WORK?!
15:06:22  <frosch123> i has like 400x300 resolution, and 5 fps
15:06:36  <andythenorth> got a link nice
15:06:47  <frosch123> it works in vlc, it does not work in cheese. i am unsure about the discord webapp
15:06:56  <andythenorth> frosch123 make / model?  I want to look up a picture of it?
15:07:18  <frosch123> i am generaly unsure about the discord webapp, maybe i need the native app instrad
15:07:31  <andythenorth> TrueBrain did you build Half-Life Rally? :P
15:07:31  <TrueBrain> it does work slightly better :)
15:07:36  <TrueBrain> No
15:08:35  * andythenorth now lost in YouTube
15:08:42  <andythenorth> it says "Checkpoint!"
15:08:49  <andythenorth> there was a game in the 90s that did that, forget which
15:08:51  <andythenorth> was classic
15:09:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- it looks exactly like that
15:09:57  <frosch123> the picture is super dark though, you see about nothing of me :)
15:10:09  <andythenorth> so retro :)
15:10:23  * andythenorth now watching Quake Rally videos
15:10:26  <TrueBrain> but a new one already :P They cost like 30 euros
15:11:22  <frosch123> the alternative is to use my phone. but then i have to build a phone stand out of cardbox or so
15:11:55  <andythenorth> just blutak
15:12:09  <andythenorth> big chunk of blutak, jam phone in it
15:12:28  <andythenorth> hmm Quake Rally looks bad :D
15:12:55  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't know if you're joking, but that works for me
15:13:07  <andythenorth> FLHerne no totally serious
15:13:29  <FLHerne> I made a lot of Zoom calls with my phone blu-tacked to the top of my subwoofer
15:14:13  <andythenorth> do you route the conference call audio through the subwoofer?
15:15:13  * andythenorth running out of ways to write 'default', 'vanilla', 'standard' in Horse code :P
15:15:21  <andythenorth> maybe I should name things better
15:16:13  <FLHerne> No
15:21:42  <milek7> andythenorth: most arcade racing games had 'checkpoint!'
15:21:43  <milek7> sega rally most famous probably?
15:22:54  * andythenorth wonders if it was outrun that did it first?
15:24:21  <andythenorth> wasn't Lotus Elite Turbo 2, but that does have epic music
15:24:30  <frosch123> i think the linux desktop app is just the webapp in chrome
15:25:33  <michi_cc> Replace chrome with electron (chromium) and you are right.
15:25:56  <michi_cc> And valid for all desktop variants.
15:25:59  <frosch123> yes, i keep forgetting that name
15:26:21  <TrueBrain> just with a bit more intergration in the OS, so it can do a few things slightly better :)
15:26:24  <frosch123> so, not sure how to test this. TrueBrain does not accept friend requests
15:26:36  <TrueBrain> I don't do what now? :(
15:26:39  <michi_cc> Now that we have WASM, we can do ElectronTTD, too :p
15:26:48  <TrueBrain> you are "frosch" right, on Discord?
15:26:58  <frosch123> yes
15:27:55  <milek7>
15:32:06  <TrueBrain> so you can test your webcam there too frosch123  :)
15:32:31  <andythenorth> tracker!
15:32:37  * andythenorth lost for the afternoon
15:32:57  <andythenorth> thanks milek7 :D
15:33:15  <andythenorth> monthly coverdisks :P
15:33:25  <andythenorth> my kids have no idea :P
15:34:11  <frosch123> i think there is some intention that truebrain is not in the dev group, but points everyone else to it
15:34:28  <TrueBrain> I gave them explicit instructions not to make me a developer, yes :P
15:34:48  <TrueBrain> I am shocked it is working, honestly ;)
15:42:49  <frosch123> looks like i can join either with desktop mobile app, or with my phone
15:42:51  <frosch123> not both :/
15:43:06  <TrueBrain> Teams does allow that ... Discord has some things to add :P
15:43:28  <glx> I never tried both
15:43:33  <frosch123> no idea whether anyone saw my face at some point, but maybe :)
15:43:41  <frosch123> but phone is pretty inconvient
15:43:43  <TrueBrain> no, you have to be joined too to see it
15:43:49  <TrueBrain> so buy a 30 euro webcam :P
15:43:51  <glx> I saw the camera icon for a short time
15:43:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: shops are closed :)
15:44:07  <TrueBrain> online shopping?
15:44:10  <TrueBrain> you know that concept? :P
15:44:16  <frosch123> delivery till easter?
15:44:25  <TrueBrain> you can't get at home delivery in 24h?!
15:44:52  *** Flygon has quit IRC
15:45:23  <TrueBrain> well, it is 3 days currently here, as it is a bit busy :P
15:48:56  <andythenorth> there's no other option
15:49:10  <andythenorth> frosch will have to draw pictures and upload them
15:49:14  <andythenorth> really fast
15:50:56  <TrueBrain> now I need to learn Discord user management ... owh joy
15:53:18  <andythenorth> I have drawn my face for use in stream
15:53:38  <andythenorth> such art
15:53:49  <LordAro> :D
15:54:39  <TrueBrain> A+
15:55:30  <andythenorth> FML I think I just understoof newgrf
15:55:34  <andythenorth> understood *
15:55:41  <andythenorth> for the first time ever
15:59:33  <andythenorth> maybe for vehicles only :(
16:00:08  <frosch123> looks like chromium needs a special ffmpeg lib
16:00:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8402: Add: New disaster mode that enables all disaster types regardless of era
16:00:13  <frosch123> let's try firefox instead
16:00:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Tell me your wisdom
16:03:16  <frosch123> nope, it directly says that ff does not work, at least something :p
16:03:32  <TrueBrain> haha
16:04:25  <supermop_Home> yo
16:04:28  <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd have to draw it I think
16:05:36  <andythenorth> I was trying to think how I could ever explain it to TB
16:05:50  <andythenorth> I figured (1) I probably can't (2) I barely understand it
16:06:16  <TrueBrain> poor andythenorth .. lost for words :D
16:08:56  <Samu> I didn't use savegame conversion too
16:09:08  <Samu> a la _dp_
16:10:40  <Samu> but _dp_ was smart! He avoided the error I'm having alltogether
16:10:45  <andythenorth> explaining 'what' vs 'why' vs 'how' vs 'where' for newgrf :P
16:10:46  <andythenorth> oof
16:11:00  <andythenorth> 'why' might be the least useful place to start
16:12:16  <Samu> I re-used the same setting, turned it into a int8, from a bool
16:12:22  <Samu> same name of the setting
16:17:15  <frosch123> ok, the desktop app seems to have the library bundles, it detect the camera, but only shows black :)
16:17:30  <TrueBrain> well, you saw mine .. it was flickering green ...
16:17:37  <TrueBrain> I am going to use OBS to stream my pretty face
16:17:43  <TrueBrain> if you like, you can do the same btw
16:17:49  <TrueBrain> Discord is good for voice
16:17:52  <TrueBrain> that is about it :P
16:27:53  <frosch123> ok, obs understands the camera
16:28:07  <TrueBrain> cool, so we can use that
16:28:54  <frosch123> i have to get used to the not-mirrored view :)
16:29:05  <TrueBrain> you can change that if you like
16:29:09  <TrueBrain> right click, transform, flip horizontally
16:29:44  <TrueBrain> we have to make sure your left is the left for the viewers :P
16:30:01  <TrueBrain> anyway, when we test, I will give you an address to stream to
16:30:04  <frosch123> well, it's still pretty dark :)
16:30:09  <TrueBrain> I can digest that stream back in OBS :)
16:30:19  <TrueBrain> maybe we test tonight?
16:30:23  <TrueBrain> I first need dinner etc, but
16:30:31  <andythenorth>  I dunno, words
16:31:02  <frosch123> is there already a stream date?
16:31:09  <TrueBrain> "this week"
16:31:25  <andythenorth> FLHerne ^ ?
16:31:26  <frosch123> ok, so i am up-to-date :)
16:31:51  <andythenorth> I tried to stay out of all of: implementation, current spec, mention of actions, and 'why do newgrf authors do things?'
16:32:26  <TrueBrain> I just wrote down some rules in livestream-chat
16:32:43  <frosch123> yes, but i can't find the "script" :)
16:32:48  <frosch123> so i fail that item
16:32:50  <TrueBrain> DOING THAT NOW FFS :P :P
16:33:41  <TrueBrain> there, happy :)
16:34:00  <TrueBrain> let me get andythenorth in the channel too
16:35:23  <frosch123> the voice chats are locked again btw. not sure whether i am supposed to enter them myself
16:35:42  <TrueBrain> hmm .. let me check permissions :)
16:36:44  <TrueBrain> I think I fixed that
16:37:19  <frosch123> yes
16:37:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
16:38:08  <TrueBrain> now I first get myself some dinner
16:38:14  <TrueBrain> we can test this all out a bit after if you are up for it :)
16:38:42  <frosch123> yes, this obs looks very magical to me :)
16:38:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
16:39:00  <TrueBrain> it kinda is, and it works kinda simple
16:39:11  <TrueBrain> I just need to make some in-between scenes etc .. fun :D
16:56:48  <Xaroth> OBS looks more complex than it is
17:02:50  <Eddi|zuHause> on this new shiny website of ours, where would i find old release versions to download?
17:04:06  <andythenorth> in the shiniest bit!
17:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i've been clicking around for like 5 minutes and can't find a reference to that being possible
17:05:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause as a service to you
17:05:35  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean like the builds. not the source
17:05:36  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: ?
17:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but there's no way to get to there from the website?
17:08:34  <glx> I think we never had a direct link
17:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> we found the missing link :p
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17:26:57  <TrueBrain> if you are a bit creative, you can find it easily from the current release; but no, we deliberately do not link it otherwise :)
17:29:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
17:30:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
17:30:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
17:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i agree with that decision
17:36:15  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Why?
17:39:19  <Xaroth> Why would you link to old versions? Isn't the whole idea that you want you userbase to run on the latest (hopefully less buggy) version?
17:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the trigger here was a person who was looking for the last version built for 9x
17:41:54  <Xaroth> Fair, but is that your intended target audience?
17:42:06  <Xaroth> I mean, for those edge cases you can always just point them to the CDN
17:42:19  <Xaroth> but the vast majority of your userbase won't be running on 9X :P
17:45:06  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: 10+ years ago there was a discussion about it, which results in: we should only download files we want people to download. I guess this was mainly as we had a lot of people who "refused" to upgrade, for all kinds of non-fact-base reasons :D
17:45:36  <TrueBrain> all I remember it was a deliberate discussion when designing this layout :)
17:45:51  <TrueBrain> and, it seems to have worked fine; this is the first request in .... how many years? :)
17:48:15  <TrueBrain> owh, and we also had the annoying issue people were pointing to the root on the CDN, instead of the our download page .. ugh .. how could I forget that blabla :P
17:48:24  <TrueBrain> so "they didn't see there was a new version"
17:49:52  <TrueBrain> why can signs end with a space, but not start with one?
17:50:03  <TrueBrain> owh, you can, but it is limited in chars
17:50:04  <TrueBrain> lol
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18:01:39  <TrueBrain> okay, frosch123 is all set up .. andythenorth ! :P
18:01:54  <andythenorth> yo
18:17:53  <TrueBrain> so, we have 3 people in a stream .. who dares to be 4th?
18:26:17  <TrueBrain> can we "volunteer" people?
18:36:41  <TrueBrain> I think LordAro should make time :P
18:42:49  <frosch123> now i understand why streamers have so many screens
18:43:00  <frosch123> two is not enough, even when i am not the main streamer
18:45:14  <TrueBrain> yup ...
18:48:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8403: Feature: Reworked recessions setting to allow durations up to 10 years
18:50:09  <LordAro> TrueBrain: need dinner first :)
18:50:23  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but are you willing to jump on stream with us this week? :D
18:51:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8403: Feature: Reworked recessions setting to allow durations up to 10 years
18:52:31  <andythenorth> FLHerne so newgrf vehicles demystified? :P
18:52:38  * andythenorth writes a thing....crickets :P
18:52:39  <andythenorth> oof
18:54:52  <FLHerne> andythenorth: ...I guess? It seems like a reasonable short description
18:56:56  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "Properties are mutable via callbacks which are triggered on specific game events."  <- I've always thought as the callback return overriding the property rather than mutating it, but maybe that's an implementation detail or just wrong :p
18:57:18  <andythenorth> I nearly wrote it your way
18:57:22  <andythenorth> but the game engine doesn't really care
18:57:53  <andythenorth> I don't know which is the more useful description
18:57:53  <FLHerne> "can use logic in callbacks" seems a bit vague
18:57:59  <andythenorth> yes!
18:58:01  <andythenorth> what logic?
18:58:26  <andythenorth> can branch to different results
18:58:27  <LordAro> TrueBrain: in theory, yes :)
18:58:38  <TrueBrain> how to make that theory a reality?
18:59:41  <FLHerne> "callbacks are usually a decision tree, but temporary variables can be set and read anywhere within a callback to make things overcomplicated?"
19:00:05  <FLHerne> *callback evaluation
19:00:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- reimplemented it. probably better than before
19:01:27  <TrueBrain> but does it crash? :)
19:01:39  <frosch123> try it
19:01:43  <andythenorth> WASM build or go home
19:01:47  <frosch123> i made a basic route, and it worked
19:02:06  <frosch123> i made it less agressive than the old one
19:02:19  <frosch123> the old one allowed all tiles, this one only clear land, coast and trees
19:02:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: i may get banned, when i pr that
19:03:04  <TrueBrain> haha :D
19:04:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
19:04:26  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:05:22  <frosch123> oi, i did not expect the non-english discord channel to be dutch
19:05:30  <TrueBrain> it mostly is :P
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19:06:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is so funny :D :D :D :D
19:07:04  <FLHerne> frosch123: but why
19:07:06  <andythenorth> game needs more lolz
19:07:16  <TrueBrain> so many sorter issues :)
19:07:19  * andythenorth waiting for the linker
19:07:22  <FLHerne> trees?!
19:08:38  <TrueBrain> the pathfinder works fine too :)
19:08:47  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so when do we do a troll stream, where we show that aircraft are barely op compared to ships?
19:08:50  <andythenorth> oh now it avoids stations
19:09:20  <TrueBrain> frosch123: next livestream? (will there be a next? :P)
19:09:24  <andythenorth> ekranoplan forthcoming
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19:09:56  <andythenorth> we can ship the hovercraft!
19:09:57  <TrueBrain> for the current livestream I wonder how many people will be completely ticked off by the intro screen
19:09:57  <andythenorth>
19:12:04  <Xaroth> at least 1 :P
19:17:21  <frosch123> hmm, i guess i should also allow road and rail
19:17:25  <frosch123> too each to trap the ships
19:17:28  <frosch123> *easy
19:18:26  <TrueBrain> rail .... can it .. collide with trains? :D
19:20:12  <frosch123> oh yeah, we can discuss that level crossing setting, and suggest a revenge setting
19:20:21  <frosch123> you crash my rv with your ships, i crash your trains with my ships!
19:20:46  <frosch123> s/ships/trains/ on the first one
19:20:50  <TrueBrain> can we make that one of the topics now? :D
19:20:54  <TrueBrain> better than my idea even :P
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19:34:26  * andythenorth traps the hovercraft
19:39:03  <TrueBrain> so ... Wednesday 1900 GMT .. we will livestream .. it will be a disaster :P
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19:39:17  <andythenorth> I freed my hovercraft
19:39:18  <TrueBrain> I hope LordAro can join too :D Does mean he needs to install Discord .... :P
19:39:28  <andythenorth> with an aqueduct over the roads
19:40:09  <FLHerne> heh
19:40:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you play on multiplayer servers often?
19:40:15  <andythenorth> rarely
19:40:27  <frosch123> but you know all the tricks :)
19:40:35  <TrueBrain> shall we "photobomb" the reddit server? :P
19:41:05  <andythenorth> I used to grief the AI back in 1994
19:41:17  <TrueBrain> you are such an old fart :P
19:41:18  <andythenorth> and I think we had it on null-modem MP
19:41:27  <andythenorth> probably I am the oldest?
19:41:40  <TrueBrain> @seen Belugas
19:41:41  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Belugas was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 37 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Belugas> yeah, a birthday :)  a good friend of mine!
19:41:50  <TrueBrain> too bad :P
19:44:41  <Samu> I'm looking through my list of branches, see what I can PR
19:45:56  <Samu>, anything interesting there?
19:59:40  <Samu> auto-determine-snow-line-height isn't exactly small
19:59:56  <Samu> wondering if I can PR it
20:03:41  <Xaroth> Bit difficult to judge if something is interesting by just a branch name.. usually a PR comes with a rationale and description... those are more telling.
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20:12:10  <andythenorth> hmm I should do some Iron Horse then
20:12:15  <andythenorth> been avoiding it all day...with talk
20:14:10  <TrueBrain> <- be there or be square
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20:36:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year.
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20:54:43  <andythenorth> so....move default vehicles to newgrf then?
20:55:24  <andythenorth> I guess there's the whole 'disable original vehicles' thing :P
20:55:26  <andythenorth> oof
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21:04:38  <michi_cc> Well, the default vehicles are basically part of the NewGRF spec. After all, they provide default values for props that are not set.
21:04:58  <andythenorth> ok so that's 2 reasons
21:05:23  * andythenorth making a list, checking it twice
21:06:14  <frosch123> you will end up with the newgrf preset idea again :)
21:06:24  <michi_cc> To not break old NewGRFs, the 'default vehicle newgrf' could only contain an enable/disable, but the prop values itself need to be embedded.
21:06:33  <frosch123> select preset: default temperate, firs temperate, custom, ...
21:06:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation
21:07:34  <michi_cc> It is, as often, a question of how long to keep backwards compatibility.
21:10:25  <andythenorth> frosch123 this seems like a....good thing? :P
21:10:45  <andythenorth> I am just poking around ideas that (1) move more things to content whilst (2) delivering something for players
21:16:07  *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC
21:21:59  <andythenorth> default vehicles in newgrf could gain cargo class support
21:22:04  <andythenorth> if we dared...vary from the original game
21:22:36  <andythenorth> then we could stop seeing repeated reddit threads about 'I have no vehicles for FIRS / ECS / XIS / Auzind / etc'
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21:28:24  <Samu>
21:28:29  <Samu> that warning
21:32:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation
21:32:16  <Samu> I hope it's happy now
21:32:46  <andythenorth> in the promised land of everything-is-content
21:32:52  <andythenorth> terrain gen would be first against the world :)
21:34:00  <_dp_> oh yeah, terragen
21:34:14  <_dp_> one of the keystones of my "everything is hopeless but servers" attitude :p
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21:38:09  <andythenorth> blacken is so labour saving
21:38:17  <andythenorth> I can just type ' instead of "
21:38:22  <andythenorth> saves wear on my shift key
21:38:28  <andythenorth> then black fixes it
21:38:46  <andythenorth> _dp_ if everything was content, you could have the same attitude, but in content :P
21:40:50  <Samu> yes! it's happy now!
21:49:15  * andythenorth dedicates this song to python black :P
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