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00:39:14 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 00:42:25 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:06:28 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 01:17:55 *** qwebirc80285 has joined #openttd 01:18:43 <qwebirc80285> hi 01:18:59 <qwebirc80285> im trying to add a new video driver based on "dedicated" 01:19:21 <qwebirc80285> but the memory pointed to _screen.dst_ptr is never updated 01:19:49 <qwebirc80285> i get "MakeDirty" rectangles that are always the full screen size 01:20:03 <qwebirc80285> any hints or tips to get something rendering? 01:22:34 <FLHerne> qwebirc80285: I think nearly everyone active here is in a European timezone (it's 1am for me) 01:23:25 <FLHerne> Either leave your IRC client open and await a reply, or ask again some other time, or on github ;-) 01:23:46 <FLHerne> michi_cc: ^ ping for video-driver question 01:24:09 * FLHerne sleeps 01:24:58 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:40:58 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 01:42:04 <qwebirc80285> i also just confirmed this behavior happens in the "dedicated" driver too 01:42:51 <qwebirc80285> using github master (pulled today) 01:58:59 <snail_UES_> if you also live in the US, there’s very few of us as FLHerne said 01:59:15 <snail_UES_> you’ll probably have a better chance if you reconnect tomorrow morning 02:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> qwebirc80285: may very well be that the "dedicated" driver takes some shortcuts because all the screen updates are discarded anyway 02:19:28 *** jellyknight has joined #openttd 02:21:54 <qwebirc80285> im gonna try with the 1.7.1 version since its the same as the one used in the ubuntu distro 02:22:11 <qwebirc80285> i am not sure how important matching content packs with version is 02:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone made any changes to that in like a decade 02:22:40 <qwebirc80285> but that should guarantee that i have a matching content pack to eliminate that as a possible issue 02:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the dedicated driver, not the content pack 02:22:59 <qwebirc80285> fwiw, i also looked through the SDL/Allegro drivers 02:23:14 <qwebirc80285> and could not find anything significantly different that would make the display work 02:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do? 02:23:41 <qwebirc80285> im looking into adding a video driver to support a handheld device 02:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the dedicated driver is for servers that do not display anything 02:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably best off trying to look for an SDL library port for your device 02:25:22 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 02:25:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 02:26:10 <qwebirc80285> the SDL version fails because the device resolution is smaller than 640x480 02:26:31 <qwebirc80285> so i gotta send the frame buffer through the hardware blitter to scale it 02:26:38 <qwebirc80285> hence the custom video driver 02:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's going to be tricky then, many windows will not fit 02:26:53 *** gelignite has quit IRC 02:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably hack out the check for 640x480, but the game might not be playable 02:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as in, you'll have trouble getting through the main menu 02:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> as some buttons might be off-screen 02:31:46 <qwebirc80285> well, i thought this would be a quick test to find out if was playable 02:35:12 *** jellyknight has quit IRC 03:14:04 *** glx has quit IRC 03:17:54 <qwebirc80285> k compiled 1.7.1 with my custom video driver and it works without issue 03:18:10 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:25:37 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:28:58 *** debdog has quit IRC 04:45:57 *** qwebirc80285 has quit IRC 06:00:42 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:16:10 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:37:34 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 06:49:11 *** GroovyNoodle has joined #openttd 07:26:23 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:29:59 <andythenorth> moin 07:30:08 <andythenorth> is it lunch? 08:06:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLH4j 08:07:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHBJ 09:07:50 <andythenorth> hmm Euro Horse 09:07:53 <andythenorth> 'Pferd'? 09:07:57 <andythenorth> 'Cheval'? 09:08:02 <andythenorth> oof 09:14:03 <andythenorth> hmm GS idea 09:14:09 <andythenorth> unify this lot, using trains :P https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia#/media/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.svg 09:37:23 <andythenorth> also Netherlands GS idea! 09:37:37 <andythenorth> deliver spices to HQ of Dutch East India Company 09:37:51 <andythenorth> for each goal met, GS will reclaim some sea and build a dyke round it 09:38:10 <andythenorth> until the King of France invades, then the GS floods 50% of the land again 09:51:18 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 09:54:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] condac opened issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx 10:17:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx 10:17:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx 10:17:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h 10:17:56 <LordAro> omg, andy pull request 10:18:03 <andythenorth> annual 10:19:18 <LordAro> looks fine, but needs someone who actually knows newgrf to review :) 10:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that's gonna need some careful rules lawyering of the specs 10:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "This property sets the multiplier to the curve speed advantage which all trains running on this track type get." i admit, it reads pretty clear 10:30:57 <Timberwolf> "something wrong in title screen game" is a Transport Tycoon tradition, we should keep it up :p 10:31:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHgv 10:31:45 <Timberwolf> Doesn't either TTO or TTD have a level crossing collision if you leave it long enough? 10:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, some title screen had that, but i don't remember which one 10:33:19 <LordAro> Timberwolf: :D 10:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> also, iirc there were different title screens for the TTO demo, TTO release version, and TTO mars expansion 10:34:14 <Timberwolf> Yes, early TTO demos have flat land with no vehicles. 10:34:27 <Timberwolf> I think there might also be some intermediate variations between that and final. 10:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant a later demo, which had an actual title screen 10:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it was distributed on a gaming magazine in germany 10:35:10 <Timberwolf> I wonder if I still have my demo disk. 10:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhen 1993-ish 10:35:43 <Timberwolf> Have a feeling a lot of the floppy disk collection got culled, and it may have been early enough someone in the house thought, "you have the full game, why do you need the demo disk?" 10:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably find it here http://www.tt-ms.de/downloads/ 10:36:50 <Timberwolf> My demo came from a game shop, they were giving them away free with purchased games. 10:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was probably this one i remember http://www.tt-ms.de/downloads/ttodemo105126.gif 10:37:24 <Timberwolf> Not sure what I was buying at the time, although I could probably narrow it down given the limited number of pre-1994 games in my collection. 10:38:01 <andythenorth> BIAB 10:38:02 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 10:39:24 *** Samu has joined #openttd 10:44:02 <Samu> hi 10:47:12 *** Heiki has quit IRC 11:00:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:00:23 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:00:33 *** Progman has joined #openttd 11:10:08 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:10:21 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:19:32 <Samu> i got a question 11:20:12 <Samu> can someone else create a pull request of stuff that is not theirs? 11:23:34 <Samu> what happens when you click this? https://github.com/SamuXarick/OpenTTD/pull/new/industry-sort-by-production-with-cargo-filter 11:28:47 <LordAro> yes, that would create a pull request 11:29:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHa0 11:31:19 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:37:07 *** Heiki has joined #openttd 11:38:21 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:38:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production with a cargo filter possible https://git.io/JLHah 11:39:01 <Samu> well 11:39:06 <Samu> inb4 reject 11:39:29 <Samu> I am 99% sure 11:40:18 *** GroovyNoodle has quit IRC 11:45:10 <Samu> 'this' may only be used inside a nonstatic member function. 11:46:13 <Samu> CargoID cargo = this->cargo_filter[this->produced_cargo_filter_criteria]; 11:46:21 <Samu> it does not like 'this' 11:48:25 <LordAro> correct 11:50:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JLHVw 11:53:32 <FLHerne> Samu: In a context that isn't a nonstatic member function, what do you expect 'this' to be? 11:54:56 <FLHerne> static members aren't attached to a particular object, and of course nor are non-member functions 11:59:31 <andythenorth> what shall we do today Brain? 12:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we do every night, pinky 12:11:59 <andythenorth> why did I buy a full size bluetooth keyboard? 12:12:03 <andythenorth> it's too big :P 12:12:04 <andythenorth> oops 12:12:47 <andythenorth> ok so are regions just lists of towns? 12:12:54 <andythenorth> with a bit of extra sugar? 12:13:17 <andythenorth> or we could start from 'why?' not 'how?' 12:14:19 <andythenorth> hmm turns out a bluetooth keyboard is a DoS vector if I've let my kids pair it with their devices 12:15:08 <andythenorth> or rather, if I let them turn it on even 12:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, conceptually, a region would be a "list of towns", but that is an implementation detail, not a concept to base a feature around 12:15:54 <andythenorth> yeah I didn't want to get stuck in the implementation 12:16:13 <andythenorth> I just wonder if there are any use cases for regions that aren't met by 'list of towns' 12:16:42 <andythenorth> what if a region was used to modify part of a town zone, but not all of it? 12:16:50 <andythenorth> 'this industry is polluting' 12:16:59 <andythenorth> so nearby towns demolish houses around it 12:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's an area, not a region 12:17:32 <andythenorth> 'this region has flooded' 12:17:42 <Eddi|zuHause> again, an area 12:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "area" here meaning "a list of tiles" 12:18:31 <andythenorth> implementation :) 12:18:33 <andythenorth> but ok 12:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> where "list" is not the right word, but a standin for some other implementation detail 12:18:51 <andythenorth> are regions always contiguous (all tiles are joined)? 12:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> a region (as list of towns) wouldn't be concerned with tiles at all 12:19:56 <andythenorth> yes but that assumes the implementation defines the 'what it is' no? :) 12:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> a town could cover one or more areas (e.g. town zones and stuff) 12:20:21 <andythenorth> or rather, what alternative definitions of a region might there be? 12:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but between a tile and a region would be at least one level of indirection 12:21:34 <andythenorth> what if regions weren't contiguous, but could be composed of multiple bounded areas? 12:21:51 <andythenorth> picture is easier TBH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia#/media/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.svg 12:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if the region has no concept of tiles, the concept of continguousness has no meaning 12:22:17 <andythenorth> +1 12:22:32 <andythenorth> if the region has no concept of tiles, how does it manifest on a tile-based map? 12:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you can run a voronoi partition over the map, with the town centers as origin tiles 12:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that would assign each tile to exactly one town 12:23:51 <andythenorth> this sounds too silly, but region must have some fundamental concept of location and/or extent? 12:23:56 <andythenorth> otherwise it's not really a region? 12:24:00 * andythenorth just checking 12:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> voronoi partitions are a bit awkward to calculate on a grid 12:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> as it doesn't automatically give you information like which towns are adjacent, which it would on a continuous plane 12:25:17 <andythenorth> hmm 12:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (with continuous and continguous being different concepts) 12:26:04 <andythenorth> if towns had, e.g. political allegiance, is that a 'region' or an 'alliance'? 12:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a region 12:27:12 * andythenorth contemplating Dice Wars clone in OpenTTD https://images.crazygames.com/dicewarsb.png?auto=format,compress&q=75&cs=strip&ch=DPR&w=1200&h=630&fit=crop 12:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> next question would be: must regions be distinct? (a town can only be part of one region) or hierarchical (a region as a whole can be part of a superregion), or arbitrarily overlapping? 12:28:41 <andythenorth> if we force them to be distinct we repeat 'can only have 1 GS' issue 12:28:44 <andythenorth> but for regions 12:28:53 <andythenorth> different content types conflict about it 12:29:01 <andythenorth> geospatial maps have layers 12:29:12 <andythenorth> layers have a controlling entity 12:30:35 <andythenorth> hierarchy....dunno 12:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a crusader kings GS :p 12:33:29 <andythenorth> is there anything so far that GS can't already do? 12:33:46 <andythenorth> not trying to shoot down regions, just wondering if they are actually a thing 12:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a GS idea: a road builder GS, which runs a voronoi partition (or actually a delaunay triangulation, which is kind of the mirror universe twin), which gives you all adjacent towns, then it would build country roads between each adjacent town center, and highways would be built along the borderlines between towns, avoiding the town centers 12:35:38 <andythenorth> sounds like the Catan game board 12:35:51 * andythenorth doesn't play Catan much, but involves building roads 12:35:53 <andythenorth> along edges 12:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> in a very abstract way, yes 12:37:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 12:37:56 <andythenorth> so currently GS can get town location 12:38:07 <andythenorth> and query locations of arbitrary tiles etc 12:38:14 <andythenorth> so is regions just a GS lib? 12:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> depends, on what you actually want to DO with the regions 12:43:45 <andythenorth> change cargo payment rate, influence cargodist, help newgrf build industries 12:44:24 <andythenorth> also blockbusters 12:45:22 <andythenorth> (grid-crossing game) https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/184337390488_/Blockbusters-Game-igloobooks-2018-Board-Game-Quiz.jpg 12:49:33 <andythenorth> regional power grid 13:19:13 <TrueBrain> _dp_: you had a script that analysis savegames, don't you? How ever rough it is .. mind sharing? :D 13:27:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8463: Change: Default settings improved for new players https://git.io/JLH6R 13:29:06 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:37:52 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 13:49:47 *** Markk has quit IRC 13:50:11 <LordAro> TrueBrain: turns out updating newgrf airports is quite a lot of work 13:50:28 <LordAro> the first commit predates the newgrf airport stuff that is there 13:50:34 <LordAro> (rotations, etc) 13:51:35 <TrueBrain> LordAro: seen the date, I am not really surprised, I have to admit 13:51:41 <LordAro> :p 13:51:52 <TrueBrain> but it might give good inspiration how to do it 13:52:11 <LordAro> also just trying to apply the (resolved) diff isn't easy either 13:52:48 <LordAro> with NULL/nullptr, then there's been some changes with "tile resolvers" 13:52:48 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 13:52:55 *** Markk_ has joined #openttd 13:53:06 <TrueBrain> I think it is easier to look at what it changed, and re-applying it 13:53:11 <LordAro> yeah 13:53:13 <TrueBrain> instead of trying to clean up the diff :D 13:54:47 <LordAro> yeah 13:54:53 <LordAro> wait, i said that already 13:56:25 <TrueBrain> repeating is the key to success, right? :D 13:56:33 <LordAro> yeah 13:56:38 <TrueBrain> haha 13:58:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8463: Change: Default settings improved for new players https://git.io/JLHPz 13:59:44 <TrueBrain> So LordAro starts a discussion outside of the Discussion page ... 13:59:47 <TrueBrain> what to think about that :P 13:59:53 <LordAro> fight! 14:00:09 <LordAro> would you like me to move it? :p 14:00:26 <TrueBrain> well, it would help for sure; but on the other hand, 10 people voted in favour, 1 against .. and frosch123 came up with the idea 14:10:11 <TrueBrain> 2 weeks he had the time to participate in the discussion .. and now he objects :P 14:10:40 <TrueBrain> but it seems you object not on a technical level, but on a "how it looks" .. that is preference, so that is good :) 14:10:47 <andythenorth> consensus by silence 14:10:58 <TrueBrain> I was scared a bit it was really a debug feature that happened to become a setting .. that would have been terrible :D 14:11:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8461: Feature: Permanent rivers https://git.io/JLHXk 14:12:15 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 14:13:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how would regions work for areas where town is 'none'? :) 14:18:37 *** glx has joined #openttd 14:18:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 14:22:08 <TrueBrain> $ python -m analyzer savegames/opntitle-1.9.sav 14:22:08 <TrueBrain> {'savegame-version': 207, 'compression': b'OTTX', 'map': {'width': 128, 'height': 128}} 14:32:07 <Samu> i need a NewGRF expert that teach a NewGRF noob to tell me how things are done 14:33:10 <Samu> taking my "canalized river" feature, I though of this special canal to have a somewhat different graphic than the ordinary canal 14:33:50 <Samu> how am I proceeding here? 14:34:23 <Samu> how do i make it visible for NewGRF 14:38:51 <TrueBrain> LordAro: please do make the balance of the fact that there was 2 weeks to comment on the Discussion, and that your remark is preference (if I understand you correct); should that block merging the PR? (honest question) 14:39:22 <LordAro> TrueBrain: no, just an additional opinion, nothing blocking 14:42:43 <TrueBrain> cool :) 14:43:03 <TrueBrain> I like how Factorio did it btw, but it can also be rather confusing :P 14:43:14 <TrueBrain> but, their segment highlight is very nice 14:49:01 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I did a thing .. https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-savegames 14:49:10 <TrueBrain> I would rather have the savegames on an S3, but that is a lot of effort, so meh 14:49:18 <TrueBrain> mainly: https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-savegames/blob/master/metadata/map-size.yaml 14:50:50 <TrueBrain> it would require either for people to clone that in the regression folder with your PR or with a git-submodule, so not sure yet what to think of this 14:50:55 <TrueBrain> input is welcome :) 14:52:46 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 14:56:00 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:04:41 <TrueBrain> I plan to add stuff like: brackets for "amount of trains", stations, road vehicles, etc 15:04:58 <TrueBrain> and more of these metadata that I would like to know when looking for a suitable savegame to test N :) 15:06:00 <TrueBrain> Possibly convert it to html and publish with GitHub Pages 15:06:19 <TrueBrain> Something to try out tomorrow :D 15:07:07 <LordAro> intriguing 15:08:05 <andythenorth> :D 15:14:59 *** _2TallTyler has joined #openttd 15:29:02 <andythenorth> hmm now what? 15:29:05 <andythenorth> boats? 15:55:36 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Did you want to wait on frosch for #7000? 16:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> do we lose anything by waiting? 16:04:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth https://git.io/JLHQl 16:04:34 <snail_UES_> so, I’m trying to install libiconv using macports, but I’m getting an error on gtk3 16:04:38 <andythenorth> I think we lose nothing 16:04:44 <andythenorth> patience is a virtue etc 16:04:44 <TrueBrain> I think that is the best thing to do michi_cc, given he had a strong opinion about that PR 16:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how long did he say he was away for? 16:04:52 <snail_UES_> I tried “cleaning” it, but it didn’t work… any ideas anyone? 16:04:54 <andythenorth> till after new year 16:05:02 <andythenorth> but the PR is like what...2 years old? 16:05:16 <TrueBrain> Waiting a few more days won't kill anyone :) 16:05:29 <andythenorth> it has progression, that's the main thing :) 16:05:40 <michi_cc> snail_UES_: I think most people (person :) here use homebrew and not macports. 16:06:27 <andythenorth> I switched, it's not that macports is broken, it's just that homebrew seems to always work 16:06:56 <andythenorth> I tried running both, not advised :) 16:07:30 <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I have a different OS and probably different XCode, but I have to use this for a compile 16:07:32 <andythenorth> rm -rf build; mkdir build; cd build; CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH="/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX.sdk/usr/include" cmake ..; make 16:07:59 <andythenorth> specifically the SDK path is the significant part, the rest was just convenience stuff TB gave me 16:08:24 <andythenorth> but that was for library detection, not linker failures 16:08:35 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes, I had to use a specific cmake 16:08:49 <snail_UES_> but that didn’t help with the linker 16:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> as a rule of thumb, i never trust any random online suggestion containing "rm -rf" 16:09:07 <andythenorth> well it's not * :) 16:09:46 <Samu> How to NewGRF? 16:10:12 <andythenorth> Samu start by writing one 16:10:30 <Samu> i made canalized river, and i thought it to be a good idea to add a graphic to it 16:10:43 <Samu> sprites or such 16:11:07 <_2TallTyler> Isn't a canalized river...just a canal? 16:11:14 <andythenorth> it's got a magic bit 16:11:17 <andythenorth> so it reverts to river 16:11:21 <andythenorth> if demolished 16:11:39 <_2TallTyler> Does it need to look different than a canal? 16:11:54 <andythenorth> dunno :) 16:11:57 <andythenorth> samu has an itch 16:12:05 <andythenorth> hmm - off-topic, why is ship progression? 16:12:06 <Samu> maybe, i don't know, I'm not in touch with the real world 16:12:24 <andythenorth> other than sprites, how do ships 'progress' in game? 16:12:52 <_2TallTyler> Bigger, more cargo. Maybe cheaper running costs as crew sizes decrease. 16:13:05 <_2TallTyler> Faster loading times thanks to containerization 16:13:52 <andythenorth> all valid 16:14:26 * andythenorth wondering whether to do 2 generations or 3 16:14:26 <_2TallTyler> I know any speed increase has been hashed out a million times on the forum 16:15:19 <andythenorth> I could just have 1 generation and magically change sprites by date 16:15:23 <andythenorth> but that's blearch I tried it 16:17:50 <andythenorth> I guess I need to vary the cranes for appearance https://grf.farm/images/3-generations-of-freighters.png 16:17:54 <andythenorth> kind of tedious work 16:18:43 <glx> andythenorth: you may want to add -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release (or RelWithDebInfo) 16:19:00 <andythenorth> glx yes I should thanks 16:19:14 <glx> because debug builds are slow 16:19:22 <andythenorth> yes 16:28:52 <andythenorth> kinda hard to do much tech tree for ships 16:29:20 <andythenorth> start: ships, all sizes; later: add container ships branch, all sizes 16:29:21 <andythenorth> FIN 16:29:48 <_2TallTyler> Ships have gotten much larger though? 16:30:02 <andythenorth> not in a way that relates to game 16:30:14 <andythenorth> unless we project "you just can't buy / build bigger ones" 16:31:05 <andythenorth> they're not even faster IRL :P 16:31:19 <andythenorth> like US freight trains, average freight ship speeds have fallen 16:32:52 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 16:33:21 <andythenorth> ha progression is kind of meaningless for a transport type with infinite capacity anyway :) 16:33:58 <andythenorth> ship nerf? :P 16:34:48 <_2TallTyler> Infinite route capacity. You can still run fewer larger ships and notice a visual difference. 16:35:58 <_2TallTyler> A quick search for tonnage shows a big change over time. A WWII Liberty Ship carried about 10k deadweight tons, Panamax is about 50k, and New Panamax is 120k. 16:37:04 <_2TallTyler> Not that those exact values should be used, but I would like to be able to fit several trainloads into a single ship in late game. 16:37:12 <andythenorth> the problem I found with this before is that there are players who want to do 1890s games or so for a long time 16:37:26 <andythenorth> so nerfing early game ships for the benefit of 2030 players doesn't work 16:37:42 <andythenorth> it is quite hard to do progression, was my conclusion :) 16:37:48 <andythenorth> with trains, you just add more wagons 16:38:01 <andythenorth> but limiting early ship size is just annoying 16:38:14 <andythenorth> reliability? 16:38:19 <_2TallTyler> Are your early ships in FISH boosted beyond real life? 16:38:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth: 1890s land vehicles have correspondingly low capacity 16:38:28 <andythenorth> way way way smaller than RL 16:38:38 <FLHerne> The problem is that industry production isn't 16:38:41 <andythenorth> most RL ships have capacities that are no use in the game 16:39:08 <_2TallTyler> Too large or too small? 16:39:14 <andythenorth> way too large 16:39:17 <andythenorth> factor of 10 or more 16:39:34 <_2TallTyler> How does Iron Horse compare to RL? 16:40:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think early games would work better if FIRS production scaled quite strongly by year 16:40:34 <FLHerne> I know the supply-boost cycle kind of does that 16:40:44 <FLHerne> But not in quite the same way 16:40:59 <andythenorth> FLHerne should be done by a GS? 16:41:23 <andythenorth> newgrf can do it, but eh 16:41:44 <andythenorth> FIRS needs to stop ignoring the ottd production multiplier 16:41:51 <andythenorth> I will fix that for FIRS 5 16:42:07 <andythenorth> then other things can modify FIRS production (i.e. GS) 16:43:25 <andythenorth> imho it won't work without modifying payment rates, but I might be wrong 16:43:33 <andythenorth> I guess 'lower costs' can address that 16:45:25 <_2TallTyler> Back to ships though, I think giant modern ships could provide interesting progression and allow players to keep up with boosted industries. Most routes probably couldn't fill a New Panamax ship, so you'd still need smaller coastal freighters, but there would be the occasional route where you get to play with really big ships. 16:47:06 <_2TallTyler> I built a Mesabi Iron Range scenario where I wanted to fill Great Lakes freighters with iron ore from 6 mines headed to the steel mill across the map, but even the largest ship could fit only about a trainload. It looked ridiculous with a constant parade of ships and cost too much so I switched to trains. 16:47:13 <andythenorth> there is RedFISH I guess 16:47:36 <_2TallTyler> Is that a fork of FISH? 16:47:39 <andythenorth> yup 16:47:41 <andythenorth> I find there are limits to "but OpenTTD has no scale" 16:47:51 <andythenorth> it kinda does, it just ranges about 2:1 16:48:33 <andythenorth> 4.5k ships https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=70956 16:48:44 <andythenorth> there's another one that has 50k ships, but really? 16:49:16 <_2TallTyler> Interesting, I'll have to try that sometime 16:49:26 <_2TallTyler> 50k does sound excessive 16:49:56 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=33030 16:50:00 <andythenorth> it's 22k, oil tanker 16:50:17 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:50:57 <_2TallTyler> I'm not one to push for realism of any kind. I just think more differentiation makes for a more interesting game. And the huge capacities of ships with the near-infinite ocean capacity IRL is their main IRL advantage. 16:52:08 <andythenorth> I think the only solution is....hoverbarges! 16:52:11 <_2TallTyler> Barring any change to ship pathfinding, now that we have multiple docks per station it might be interesting to limit how many ships can load at one dock, to add some capacity constraint and encourage players to build big harbors 16:52:30 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Scaling income and costs for increasing production over time sounds a bit like inflation :p 16:52:36 <andythenorth> doesn't it 16:52:42 <andythenorth> I'd rather the economy did that 16:53:25 <andythenorth> I'd happily patch FIRS to support economy mods (presumably GS) 16:54:10 <andythenorth> so are we doing daylength? 16:54:22 <andythenorth> because trying to sort out progression for 150 years of normal speed play is one thing 16:54:29 <andythenorth> and daylength / frozen time is another 16:56:44 <andythenorth> _2TallTyler https://github.com/andythenorth/NotWater/issues/1 "docks which have a 'size' concept, with n slots (and ships have a property for size)" 16:57:22 <andythenorth> see also 'locks with different sizes' 16:57:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't think it needs to be a GS thing 16:58:00 <FLHerne> grfs are already very opinionated about time periods 16:58:15 <andythenorth> there's no spec limitation to doing it in FIRS 16:58:30 <andythenorth> I just don't want to spend time tuning it for other people's play-styles :) 16:58:33 <andythenorth> I tuned it for me 16:58:55 <andythenorth> it's inefficient to try and do it for other people via written feedback loop :) 16:59:06 <andythenorth> could just be a 'put numbers in here' parameter 16:59:13 <FLHerne> I know, I don't think there's a conceptual limitation either 16:59:13 <andythenorth> but most players can't access params during game 16:59:34 <FLHerne> That's a sensible reason :p 16:59:46 <andythenorth> it's definitely "nah I can't be bothered" not "bad idea, won't work" 16:59:51 <andythenorth> someone should fork :P 17:00:00 <FLHerne> You could have LOTS of parameters :D 17:00:14 <andythenorth> given the choice, I'd have lots of forks :P 17:00:23 <FLHerne> production modifiers for 1800, 1850, ..., 2100 17:00:28 <_2TallTyler> I whole-heartedly support NotWater 17:00:29 <FLHerne> interpolate between them 17:00:58 <andythenorth> how many FIRS forks are there now? 5 or so? 17:01:03 <_2TallTyler> The nice thing is most of it can be done in pieces 17:01:05 <FLHerne> But then you spend all your time explaining to people how to change their fork without breaking everything 17:03:36 <andythenorth> surprisingly I don't 17:03:40 <andythenorth> I feared that I would 17:03:44 <andythenorth> but the support burden is low 17:05:47 <andythenorth> so...hoverbarges 17:05:50 <andythenorth> :P 17:06:24 <andythenorth> _2TallTyler was the canal boats you? 17:07:08 <_2TallTyler> Yep. I'm probably going to convert them to WaterWay road vehicles though 17:07:18 <_2TallTyler> Lunchtime, be back later 17:07:28 *** _2TallTyler has quit IRC 17:09:22 <andythenorth> hmm NRT ship set? 17:09:31 <andythenorth> new NRT flag, can build road on water 17:14:30 <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: to answer your reply on my post in JGR’s thread… I have both lzo and libiconv installed 17:14:44 <snail_UES_> libiconv @1.14_0+universal (active) 17:14:45 <snail_UES_> and 17:14:57 <snail_UES_> lzo @1.08_0 (active) 17:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: then it's not picking up the right versions (maybe it messed up include and library dirs). but i can't help you with that 17:15:40 <andythenorth> hmm ships just don't have the same concepts of roles and stuff https://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.16.0/html/tech_tree_table_red.html 17:15:48 * andythenorth will rebuild him! 17:15:56 <snail_UES_> right, so should I ask JGR? 17:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> does it work if you compile master? 17:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure how far JGR can actually help you with OS-specific stuff 17:18:09 <snail_UES_> if I compile his ottd, I still get the linking error 17:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, can you compile normal (non-JGR) ottd correctly? 17:19:06 <snail_UES_> haven’t tried that one. I’ll give it a try 17:23:23 *** Progman has quit IRC 17:27:18 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 17:28:04 <snail_UES_> hmm, compiling master crashes before linking 17:28:26 <snail_UES_> "In file included from /roba/openttdm/src/settingsgen/settingsgen.cpp:14:" 17:28:33 <snail_UES_> “/roba/openttdm/src/settingsgen/../ini_type.h:15:10: fatal error: 'optional' file 17:28:34 <snail_UES_> not found” 17:28:47 <snail_UES_> make[2]: *** [src/settingsgen/CMakeFiles/settingsgen.dir/settingsgen.cpp.o] Error 1 17:28:48 <snail_UES_> make[1]: *** [src/settingsgen/CMakeFiles/settingsgen.dir/all] Error 2 17:29:06 <snail_UES_> this didn’t occur in JGR’s version... 17:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds weird 17:44:16 *** _2TallTyler has joined #openttd 17:45:32 <michi_cc> snail_UES_: Which OS version are you running? We recently switch to using C++17 everywhere and by default you need Xcode 10 for that, which is 10.13+ 17:45:49 <snail_UES_> omg. I’ve got 10.12 17:45:57 <michi_cc> The resulting app should _run_ on older versions, but you need a recent enough compiler. 17:46:22 <snail_UES_> what should I do then? download Xcode 10? 17:46:48 <michi_cc> In theory you can install newer clang versions via macports/homebrew, but there are probably lots of caveats with that. 17:47:06 <snail_UES_> I’m using cmake 3.19.2, but that’s probably not enough? 17:47:12 <michi_cc> Xcode 10 requires OSX 10.13 or newer. Regarding the Xcode tools, Apple is not very backwards compatible. 17:47:15 <andythenorth> you're usually beholden to 'how have Apple broken headers this time?' :| 17:47:40 <michi_cc> It's not broken, just not included in older Xcode versions. 17:48:37 <andythenorth> 10.12 is only 2016, but in Apple world that's forever ago 17:48:42 <michi_cc> cmake 3.19 is plenty new enough. 17:48:45 <andythenorth> 2016 still seems like yesterday to me 17:49:23 <michi_cc> Well, you can still use Xcode 10 to build apps _for_ 10.12 or older, just not _on_ 10.12. 17:50:35 <michi_cc> Apple is running somewhat behind in the C++ support game, probably because their main languages are Obj-C/Swift. 17:54:29 <andythenorth> hmm shall we do some ship physics? 17:54:36 <andythenorth> ship chance of sinking? 17:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause> why would ships sinking be better gameplay than industries closing? 17:55:06 <andythenorth> yes 17:55:38 <andythenorth> well if we could figure out industry closure, we could use the same mechanic for ships? :P 17:55:40 * andythenorth doubts it 17:56:13 * andythenorth considers a 'luckiness' property for all newgrf things 17:57:35 <andythenorth> oof no, clearly I've played too many 'loot box' games 17:57:44 <andythenorth> bad 17:58:13 <snail_UES_> so it sounds like JGR stuck with the old Xcode then? 17:58:24 <snail_UES_> if so, that was a smart choice :) 17:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably not going to stay that way :) 17:59:07 <glx> well it's a very recent change in master that may end in JGR in next sync 18:03:31 <snail_UES_> but I hate upgrading the OS… when I do it, a third of my apps stop working 18:04:21 <snail_UES_> what was the rationale behind moving to the new compiler? 18:04:27 <snail_UES_> besides that “it’s new"? 18:04:47 <Samu> I wanted to create an issue which would end up myself ranting about the "restart" command changes 18:04:58 <Samu> not sure I want that 18:10:08 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:15:11 <TrueBrain> "New" is a very relative term here, I am afraid :D 18:16:11 <snail_UES_> I’d just like to know whether it brought some true benefits… and it wasn’t just a change for change’s sake 18:16:36 <snail_UES_> since it’s basically preventing some people (including myself) from being able to compile at all from now on 18:17:48 <TrueBrain> Had to look it up, most of C++17 is support since clang 3.9, which was released in 2017 18:17:54 <TrueBrain> That ain't new :D 18:18:09 <TrueBrain> And no, nothing in OpenTTD happens without 20 people voicing their opinion 18:18:48 <TrueBrain> So a change for the shake of changing is not compatible with OpenTTD 18:19:32 <TrueBrain> But having a compiler more than 3 years old is simply too old in 2020 .. but I guess you can install a newer version in a VM 18:19:54 <TrueBrain> It is only the compiler that is the issue 18:21:22 * Timberwolf is now pondering how you'd "solve" ships. 18:21:34 <Timberwolf> Obviously removing the infinite throughput in some way, but how is the fun part. 18:22:44 *** ZirconiumY has quit IRC 18:23:46 <andythenorth> so shall we dig up nielsm's deep water patch? 18:23:48 <Timberwolf> Thinking one ship per dock, but maybe also some internal station mechanic, like having stockpile tiles and load/unload cranes. 18:23:58 <andythenorth> something something 18:24:02 <Timberwolf> Sort of a mini Factorio in dock objects :) 18:24:16 <andythenorth> I wouldn't like to nerf base ships, they're kinda fine 18:24:27 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with infinite capacity, it's rarely exploited 18:25:17 <andythenorth> I'd just like a bit more richness to ship gameplay 18:25:30 <Timberwolf> I guess the scaling is too easy compared with other transport types. 18:25:58 <andythenorth> this was promising, I wonder if it builds 18:25:59 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7924 18:26:01 <Timberwolf> Aircraft are the least interesting. You hit the hard capacity limit of the biggest airport and that's it, go find another sink/source. 18:26:05 <andythenorth> classic for a WASM preview 18:26:22 <andythenorth> yeah aircraft so 1 dimensional, no choices to make at all :) 18:26:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLHxg 18:26:31 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 18:26:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7328: Feature: Improve restart command https://git.io/JLHx2 18:26:36 <Timberwolf> Road vehicles and trains you need increasingly complex networks to support more of them. 18:26:41 * andythenorth considers giving ships 'pathfinder accuracy' prop 18:26:42 <andythenorth> :P 18:26:50 <andythenorth> newer ships sail in circles less 18:26:51 <Timberwolf> The problem with the ships is you need the same infrastructure for 1 ship as 1000. 18:27:09 <Samu> is my rant gentle enough? 18:27:10 <andythenorth> 1-in-1 out lock restriction 18:27:23 <Samu> I commented on a merged PR :( 18:29:01 <Timberwolf> JGR has some sort of anti ship quantum tunnelling patch, not tried it though. 18:29:30 <andythenorth> the deep water would be the companion to rivers 18:29:43 <andythenorth> then barges could be nerfed on deep water, and sea ships on rivers/canals 18:30:23 <snail_UES_> you could check the distance from the closest shore? 18:30:32 <andythenorth> currently nerfing barges on ordinary water is pointless, as normal water areas are frequent 18:30:52 <andythenorth> and just nerfing sea ships on canal/river means 'barges everywhere' 18:30:57 <LordAro> Samu: probably best to raise a new issue 18:42:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #8469: I don't like this feature at all. https://git.io/JLHpO 18:42:46 <Samu> holy crap, that wasn't what i expected 18:43:04 <LordAro> better fix it quickly then 18:44:19 <Samu> i clicked Reference in new issue 18:44:29 <Samu> and it just posted it immediately 18:47:20 <andythenorth> meh ships IRL 18:47:38 <andythenorth> a General Cargo Vessel isn't for general cargo 18:47:44 <andythenorth> Break-bulk isn't bulk 18:48:04 <andythenorth> Dry bulk isn't liquids 18:48:08 <andythenorth> but liquids are bulk 18:48:19 <andythenorth> bulk isn't general cargo 18:48:31 <andythenorth> but a multi-purpose vessel can carry general cargo and bulk 18:48:48 <andythenorth> super! 18:49:08 <andythenorth> and a multi-purpose vessel can't carry liquids 18:49:13 <andythenorth> unless it has tanks, then it can 18:49:14 <andythenorth> RL! 18:49:23 <andythenorth> so good for game design, pls try harder RL 18:58:25 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd 19:05:54 <andythenorth> town noise limits for hovercraft? :P 19:38:15 <Samu> im getting this warning 19:38:17 <Samu> D:\OpenTTD\OpenTTD GitHub\OpenTTD\src\station_cmd.cpp(2034): warning C4146: unary minus operator applied to unsigned type, result still unsigned 19:38:39 <Samu> I didn't touch there at all 19:50:09 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/runs/1627312882#step:6:694 19:56:15 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/station_cmd.cpp#L2034 20:01:35 <Samu> https://preview.openttd.org/pr8444/ heh this can even be seen in the main menu 20:01:53 <Samu> the levelcross patch 20:13:09 <Timberwolf> My existing cars are too large to use as a "vehicles" cargo with the smaller trucks. (Joys of Road Vehicles being done to a partly logarithmic scale) 20:13:23 <Timberwolf> What a terrible problem to have to solve. https://i.imgur.com/Up3wagE.png 20:14:07 <andythenorth> Timberwolf same problem for me with Hog and train cargos ) 20:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the problem when different vehicles use different scales 20:15:07 <snail_UES_> same for me, I had to draw cars really tiny to fit them on flatbed wagons 20:16:31 <Timberwolf> I now need to stop myself spending all evening tweaking this one object the 0.2% of players who complete the FIRS vehicle chain before the 1980s and use trucks to distribute it might see, ever. 20:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the kind of player which will complain very noisily 20:19:07 <glx> Samu: I think it's #8454, but seems to be only for release builds as the warning is not visible in the PR 20:19:39 <andythenorth> Timberwolf admirable dedication though 20:19:48 <andythenorth> especially if you automate it 20:19:56 <andythenorth> how much you hate me if I change Vehicles cargo? 20:20:08 <Timberwolf> What are you considering changing it to? 20:21:11 <andythenorth> I wondered about splitting it to trucks and cars 20:21:36 <andythenorth> not sure why really, just trying to figure out why I ever transport vehicles 20:21:46 <andythenorth> they also get produced in insane amounts 20:21:51 <andythenorth> as everything converges 20:21:58 <andythenorth> ever / never /s 20:23:24 <Timberwolf> Trucks is fine, I can already convert the Cortina and Mini sprites into their respective pickup variants :p 20:30:38 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: I already hate you enough for all the new cargoes you added in FIRS 4 :p 20:31:04 <andythenorth> well if I do the chemicals economy, it's all tankers 20:31:07 <andythenorth> so that's easy :P 20:31:23 <andythenorth> it's also a reason I might not do it 20:31:42 <snail_UES_> well, we can still paint those tankers in funny colors 20:32:14 <snail_UES_> but I just noticed I have a few dozens “new” cargoes of yours yet to code... 20:33:07 <snail_UES_> with all those different kinds of steel... 20:35:22 <andythenorth> GL :) 20:35:51 <andythenorth> I won't do much FIRS for a while 20:36:00 <andythenorth> other things I want to explore 20:39:38 *** gnu_jj_ has quit IRC 20:47:30 <Samu> i've also noticed something fishy about reliability #8325 20:47:39 <Samu> similar to what he describes 20:48:21 <Samu> like, for example, the default aircraft, having very much the same reliability between each other, due to their introduction date being close as well 20:50:24 <Samu> so, multiple aircraft introduced in 1950 have the same reliability 20:59:13 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 21:01:16 <andythenorth> revert! 21:01:21 <andythenorth> or not 21:01:45 * andythenorth votes not 21:04:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8470: Change #8325: Make engine reliability independent of introduction date https://git.io/JLQU9 21:05:08 <Samu> not a total revert 21:05:13 <Samu> partial revert 21:08:21 <andythenorth> :) 21:09:56 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 21:13:32 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 21:14:10 <andythenorth> is it time for next livestream yet? 21:15:14 <Samu> i wonder if the new random seed breaks vehicle grouping 21:15:21 <Samu> i need to test newgrfs :( 21:16:13 <Samu> vehicle intro date, i mean 21:16:41 <Samu> andythenorth, you have vehicles being introduced in the same date? 21:16:56 <Samu> in some newgrf? i always forget what they're called 21:17:09 <andythenorth> try Iron Horse 21:17:15 <andythenorth> around 1955-1965 21:19:52 <andythenorth> Samu actually that's wrong, I'm checking 21:20:05 <andythenorth> mostly this feature was to synchronise wagon introductions 21:20:48 <Samu> not just wagons 21:20:50 <andythenorth> Samu there is a large block of wagons that all have introduction_date: date(1960, 5, 1); 21:21:21 <andythenorth> the engines are deliberately de-synchronised in most cases 21:29:16 <Samu> iron horse 1 or 2? 21:31:42 <Samu> ah, it was iron horse 2 21:31:59 <Samu> just noticed suddenly a ton of wagons becoming available in 1962 21:32:13 <Samu> looks like I didn't break that feature 21:33:57 <Samu> you have 6 train engines available in 1860, let's test this 21:34:21 <supermop_Home> well andy so far my hotels look crap 21:36:48 <Samu> yep, all your 1860 engines got the same reliability: 98% 21:37:10 <Samu> engines with an intro date of 1860* 21:37:28 *** Progman has joined #openttd 21:39:07 <supermop_Home> andythenorth https://imgur.com/a/aY3S66h 21:39:14 <Samu> with the PR, they get: 89%, 83%, 96%, 81%, 86% and 84% 21:39:19 <andythenorth> chalet hotel! 21:39:33 <Samu> and they're still introduced at the same time 21:39:49 <supermop_Home> brick noise texture needs touch ups/lintels and sills 21:40:01 <andythenorth> sort the roof out, you're golden 21:40:51 <supermop_Home> or replacing to wood siding / stone / stucco. roof needs texture and snow, balcony slab brightness needs a tweak, ground tile needs -something- 21:41:46 <andythenorth> Samu results seem valid 21:41:58 <andythenorth> supermop_Home give it some grass, always cheers a sprite up 21:42:00 <supermop_Home> roof style has two variants... mountain west park lodge timber truss or chalet longitudinal beams 21:42:16 <andythenorth> hotel object set forthcoming? 21:42:16 <supermop_Home> i was thinking chips style flower beds? 21:42:56 <supermop_Home> well you got 4 tiles in firs.... if you want pool/shuffleboard court / lawn with Adirondack chairs 21:43:27 <andythenorth> FIRS could be 6 tiles TBH 21:43:34 <andythenorth> can it break over slopes ok? 21:43:38 <supermop_Home> lobby entrance and port-cochere? 21:43:41 <andythenorth> (different height levels) 21:43:43 <supermop_Home> yeah 21:43:54 <supermop_Home> all the chunks are modular 21:44:27 <supermop_Home> most Adirondack hotels and National park lodges are on terraced slopes for effect here 21:44:33 <andythenorth> I'm favouring more of a resort 21:44:43 <andythenorth> it looks silly having 6 tile pax station at 4 tile hotel 21:44:49 <supermop_Home> early 20th C ideas of sitting out on lawn chairs 21:45:23 <andythenorth> recovering from consumption 21:45:26 <andythenorth> or shell shock 21:45:28 <supermop_Home> breaking heights makes driveways and port cochere a little odd without complex custom foundations 21:45:35 <supermop_Home> exactly 21:46:02 <supermop_Home> i considered a paiimo santatorium style 21:46:11 <andythenorth> or shell shock 21:46:17 <andythenorth> oops wrong key 21:51:50 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:03:23 <supermop_Home> ha 22:03:58 <supermop_Home> the bricks do need a bit of a foster touch to look less muddy 22:04:41 <supermop_Home> how 'allowed' is it to re-crop but not otherwise alter the original hotel so that it works as a 1-tile module 22:09:00 <andythenorth> the original original? 22:09:04 <supermop_Home> yeah 22:09:26 <supermop_Home> so that firs could use it more flexibly in layouts 22:09:58 <andythenorth> nah 22:10:02 <FLHerne> 'not', I imagine 22:10:05 <andythenorth> 'not' 22:10:53 <FLHerne> You could use the OGFX one, except it looks like a blurry mud hut 22:10:56 * andythenorth must to sleep :) 22:10:59 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:16:59 <Timberwolf> OK, that was way too much detail for the final output resolution. https://i.imgur.com/3EOLiAn.png 22:19:48 <supermop_Home> Timberwolf lotus elans? 22:20:01 <supermop_Home> sunbeams? 22:20:08 <Timberwolf> Close, MX-5s. 22:20:22 <supermop_Home> the mini made me think earlier... 22:20:45 <supermop_Home> i drew a wrx for my RVs 22:20:59 <supermop_Home> coulding get the car carrier sprite to work tho 22:21:06 <supermop_Home> so gave up 22:21:13 <Timberwolf> This is for 1980s-on cargo, I wanted something that had a suitably long production life because I can avoid needing too many sprites. 22:21:42 <Timberwolf> (Ignoring that there are multiple generations, but at this resolution it doesn't matter so much) 22:22:04 <supermop_Home> i have like a 40s pick up, then 70s pick up, then the imprezza with and without hood scoop 22:23:28 <supermop_Home> if i did 2 or 4x mybe i could sneak in some Daihatsu Hijets / kei trucks and vans 22:23:40 <supermop_Home> but at 1x it'd look like a crate! 22:28:25 <FLHerne> Timberwolf: Do you render the 1x sprites separately, or just downscale the 2x ones? 22:29:31 <supermop_Home> new bug report: vehicles cargo is clearly a 3rd generation miata, when game date is 2002 and should still be 2nd generation 22:34:36 <supermop_Home> trying to work up motivation to mess with hotel sprites 22:36:22 <Timberwolf> FLHerne: They get rendered seperately. 22:38:56 <Timberwolf> I did some comparisons a while ago with re-rendering vs scaling, you get better detail recovery rendering again. 22:39:32 <FLHerne> Thanks (that's what I suspected) 22:40:05 <FLHerne> Do you have any ideas for higher-level constructs that would make NML suck less? 22:40:20 <FLHerne> I was playing around with a sort of template system 22:40:48 <Timberwolf> Internally something like 25 rays are cast for each resultant pixel, with the ones near the centre of the pixel having more influence over the end result. 22:41:38 <FLHerne> That's pretty neat 22:41:45 <Timberwolf> (This is probably overkill, my settings are from earlier versions of the renderer which were more prone to glitching out and doing weird things) 22:42:26 <FLHerne> Do you do any sort of alignment between the model and the pixel grid? 22:42:52 <Timberwolf> No, I probably should - details end up slightly asymmetric currently due to that. 22:43:03 <supermop_Home> Timberwolf what is your process for rendering to palette colors? 22:43:12 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:43:45 <Timberwolf> Work out the RGB value, downsample with Floyd-Steinberg dithering. 22:44:44 <supermop_Home> i thought about setting up basic glossy rhino or vray materials that would be in the palette, render with plain white light and then accept that resultant shades would be close enough to clamp without looking muddy 22:44:45 <Timberwolf> Count how many samples are a "special" colour (animated/company/etc.) - if company colour, restrict the output range to the relevant CC range. If it's an animated colour, pick the most common index. 22:45:12 <supermop_Home> what are you rendering in? 22:45:25 <Timberwolf> I wrote my own renderer :) 22:45:32 <supermop_Home> neato 22:45:36 <Timberwolf> https://github.com/mattkimber/gorender 22:46:04 <snail_UES_> I wish I had time to draw stuff in 2x like that :) 22:46:25 <Timberwolf> It's very tied to one particular workflow (and I didn't realise until 2TallTyler started using it how much I compensate for the renderer in the voxel modelling, and vice versa) 22:46:32 <snail_UES_> the level of detail you can achieve is just great 22:46:47 <supermop_Home> hmm 22:47:51 <supermop_Home> the main thing that keeps tugging me back towards wanting model rather than draw is curved and angled shapes, so idk if voxels would be a good fit for me 22:48:11 <Timberwolf> Quite. 22:48:14 <supermop_Home> i have wanted to learn how to write a simple renderer though 22:48:28 <Timberwolf> I have a lot of messy code which generates normals based on surrounding voxels, then averages them. 22:48:44 <Timberwolf> With a file defining how "smooth" different TTD palette ranges are. 22:49:37 <supermop_Home> even just for work, i often want to just make simple digrams from models that aren't photoreal or artistic at all, but its a kludge to export essentially viewport captures and then photoshop 22:50:10 <supermop_Home> when some kind of diagrammatic renderer could produce just what i wanted 22:50:50 <Timberwolf> My whole process is a workaround for the fact I prefer TTD to be in "pixel art" style rather than "rendered" style, but I'm utterly hopeless at drawing traditional pixel art. 22:52:36 <supermop_Home> i also prefer the pixel style, but I've wondered if a particular rendering workflow could be developed that would maintain the vibrant toylike quality even in rendered sprites 22:54:00 <Timberwolf> (The reality is something in between the two, which has now become a sort of deliberate stylistic choice) 22:54:18 <supermop_Home> pixel art looks great because of all the cheating / magic you can do with supernormal highlights/shadows, and working only in saturated colors 22:54:35 <supermop_Home> but learning and executing all that magic is a huge pain 22:55:52 <supermop_Home> like a flat wall that ends up with non-realistic shadows in one corner - raytracing wont do that bc light wont do that, but it looks good and basically you have to do it manually 22:57:09 <Timberwolf> I tend to bake a certain amount of shading into the objects by hand. 22:57:30 <supermop_Home> by setting voxel colors manually? 22:57:41 <supermop_Home> or post processing? 22:58:04 <Timberwolf> Manually - not a huge amount, just enough to emulate some of those contrasts you'd get in hand-drawn art. 23:00:05 <supermop_Home> ive wondered - if you could use 32bpp, but limit shades to a smooth gradient within the color ranges in the palette - like a smooth gradient from darkest cc blue to lightest, but nothing outside of that range 23:00:39 <supermop_Home> the problem is that many of the palette 'gradients' are not actually monochromatic 23:01:16 <Timberwolf> That's what I did with the early versions of Road Vehicles (all the public releases up to now) - it gives you a result which looks smoother, but loses some of the 'grain' and character of the 8bpp sprites. 23:02:21 <Timberwolf> You do spend ages trying to get company colours to work nicely, though! 23:03:52 <Timberwolf> Tracks is hybrid 8bpp/32bpp, everything from Trains onward is pure 8bpp. 23:05:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8470: Change #8325: Make engine reliability independent of introduction date https://git.io/JLQmg 23:05:58 <Timberwolf> Originally I was going to do Trains with 32bpp vehicle sprites and 8bpp overlays for animations/cargo sprites, but ended up making the whole thing 8bpp to keep the file size down. 23:07:43 <Timberwolf> As a result I fixed so many problems with the colour resampling and dithering there wasn't really any point doing things in 32bpp (especially since the objects start out in the TTD palette) 23:13:20 <snail_UES_> honestly, when I do my pixel art, I try to avoid saturated colors like plague 23:13:54 <snail_UES_> “earthy” colors give you a much better effect… otherwise the final result looks too toyish 23:18:18 <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ true, but even the browns and tans in the palette are pretty saturated 23:18:32 <supermop_Home> as compared to like the locomotion palette 23:19:17 <supermop_Home> Timberwolf this is what i was thinking of a while back: https://imgur.com/a/obVZumg 23:19:34 <Timberwolf> Oh yeah, I remember that image. 23:19:49 <supermop_Home> each material is a palette color in the middle of a 'range' 23:20:18 <supermop_Home> but the shading and highlights obviously depart from the palette. 23:20:30 <snail_UES_> for tan, I usually use 35-3B 23:20:32 <Timberwolf> The biggest problem I had with 32bpp was getting the mask and the underlying colour to play ball (especially across multiple company colours) 23:21:15 <supermop_Home> yeah masked cc on rendered sprites often looks weird 23:22:02 <supermop_Home> does the game mix the mask color additively or like a multiply operation? 23:22:34 <Timberwolf> I don't recall :/ (This is how much I've gone back to 8bpp!) 23:24:14 <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ if you draw by hand you can draw a bunch of all brown and grey stuff that still feels lively and vibrant, whereas clamping a rendered thing that is already desaturated looks muddy 23:25:12 <supermop_Home> but drawing pixels by hand at 2x or 4x is Sisyphean 23:26:08 <snail_UES_> supermop_Home: yes, I never tried to do any rendering (I’m not that good :p ) 23:26:38 <snail_UES_> but usually, I only use the most saturated tones for certain accents (or details) 23:26:54 <snail_UES_> I feel the bulk of the sprites to look better if drawn in more earthy tones 23:27:09 <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ its all the 'wrong' things humans do to cheat while drawing that make sprites look good 23:27:40 <snail_UES_> haha, I tend to agree 23:28:01 <snail_UES_> you can’t follow a mathematical model 100% when you manually draw sprites, especially in such small sizes 23:28:05 <supermop_Home> as you are basically doing the dithering by hand to draw the eye where you want it 23:28:17 <supermop_Home> i regret not drawing this hotel at 2x to get all these timber bits right 23:28:39 <supermop_Home> but i guess downsampling them later would make them look even more of a mess 23:29:32 <supermop_Home> as is i got a wood post that looks to be about 1m in diameter 23:30:18 <snail_UES_> yes, I found a similar thing when drawing my depots (or even catenary pylons) 23:30:42 <snail_UES_> you have to play with the color shades a lot, to give the proper feel of size and depth 23:30:45 <supermop_Home> yeah also choosing what to fake from / to _ view is a lot of manual work 23:31:25 <supermop_Home> i should probably redraw unspooled at 2 or 4 x, as it is a grf almost entirely of poles 23:31:52 <supermop_Home> that are all 2px wide 23:32:35 <snail_UES_> unluckily, the original TTD perspective is distorted… / sprites are “shrunk” compared to their _ counterpart 23:33:17 <supermop_Home> basically have to manually chop one window's worth of length off 23:35:28 <Timberwolf> My catenary is surprisingly chunky, 3px on poles (With the occasional random 2px thrown in, thanks renderer). https://i.imgur.com/46NXVpI.png 23:35:41 <Timberwolf> I guess unspooled models lower tension systems, though. 23:38:51 <supermop_Home> only the 'high speed tramway' is a real catenary system (and i used straight flat wires for that) the other ones are all more low tension trolley wire 23:39:37 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 23:41:10 <FLHerne> Timberwolf: tbh, I find your catenary a bit too chunky for my taste 23:41:19 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:42:37 <FLHerne> (whereas the third-rail seems nearly invisible at 1x zoom) 23:48:46 <Timberwolf> iirc, a lot of that is I was fighting against the renderer's normals calculation (it doesn't like thin objects, as it can't figure out which way is up) 23:55:53 <snail_UES_> ^^ the reason why I still prefer to do pixel pushing 23:57:45 <Timberwolf> I keep meaning to fix this by adding an option for the renderer to treat a particular palette index as "use for normal calculation, discard before rendering) 23:58:52 <Timberwolf> But I also quite like that sort of style. 23:59:30 <Timberwolf> My guiding principle is, "what would Simon Foster have done if he'd had 4 times the pixels to work with?" 23:59:48 <Timberwolf> Even though I've played Locomotion and I know the answer is "make everything brown for some reason"