Log for #openttd on 26th January 2021:
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00:06:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] CheapWebdesign opened issue #134: [nl_NL] Translator access request
00:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't trust a username "CheapWebdesign"
00:10:24  <LordAro> haha
00:10:32  <LordAro> no, i wouldn't either
00:10:37  <LordAro> but the account itself seems "fine"
00:25:57  <Timberwolf> I need to find some way to work this in to a set.
00:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have any useful suggestions...
00:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not really any sensible use for service vehicles
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01:57:42  <Wuzzy> hey, i have been experimenting with new sounds for the OpenSFX base sound pack. how do i test these in-game?
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02:47:19  <milek7_> michi_cc: fwiw, that persistent mapping performance issue is solved by using GL_CLIENT_STORAGE_BIT
03:06:45  <Wuzzy> btw has been down for at least 2 days now
03:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> openttdcoop isn't really being maintained anymore
03:10:03  <Wuzzy> oh
03:10:26  <Wuzzy> hmm, there should be a clearer note on the mainpage then, that openttdcoop is dead
03:10:38  <Wuzzy> its not really obvious right now. *confused face*
03:12:24  <Wuzzy> Wow. Oh my. OpenTTD had its own issue tracker, and project management website, and project manager, i.e. basicallya lot of independent infrastrucute, and it was all killed? how sad 🙁
03:14:18  <Wuzzy> huh. at least the wiki is still independent. Good. 😀
03:14:58  <milek7_> well, wiki data is stored on github too
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04:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> keeping "independent" infrastructure running is quite difficult, especially upgrading.
04:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the major reasons for switching the openttd infrastructure over
04:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody is going to do anything like that with the openttdcoop infrastructure. the server is showing its age, and there aren't enough people around
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09:09:09  <Timberwolf> Well, there's plenty willing to "project manage" such a thing, not so much actually "do" ;)
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10:49:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman”
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11:14:19  <Samu> hi
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11:19:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8609: Fix: Equalise the number of frames needed for road vehicles to traverse different radius curves
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11:34:35  <Samu> dang it, there's still issues with the conversion
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12:14:35  <andythenorth> plenty of suggestions of how unmaintained, dead assets could be maintained :P
12:14:41  <andythenorth> recurrent theme
12:15:12  <andythenorth> "why did the AWOL author of this thing not write an explanation"
12:15:19  * andythenorth grumpy
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12:33:51  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Needs a pinch of "but I don't know code, this would be easy for someone who knows code so why can't someone do it?" for good measure.
12:34:43  * Timberwolf ponders making a good old fashioned "making a graphics set, recruiting artists and coders" post.
12:36:55  <Timberwolf> Admittedly, every once in a while I consider learning enough about disassembling and debugging compiled executables to fix the TTO demo for Gurluas :)
12:37:02  <andythenorth> :P
12:41:04  <LordAro> Gurluas?
12:41:52  <Timberwolf> There's a forum thread about the TTO demo where, some time in the early 2000s, said poster asks about removing the 2 year time limit in the TTO demo.
12:42:07  <LordAro> aha
12:42:18  <Timberwolf> They then return every year or so to ask, "has anyone been able to do this yet?"
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12:43:18  <LordAro> needs someone to fix the TTD tutorial(?) where the mouse cursor clicks on a news window by mistake
12:43:22  <LordAro> wb matrix
12:44:14  <Timberwolf> Has Chris Saywer officially announced abandoning TTD? If not someone should tell him, so he can fix it.
12:44:33  <andythenorth> I am worried that when I die
12:44:39  <andythenorth> I won't be able to do my admin
12:45:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: automate it to the point where you're no longer required
12:45:31  * LordAro wonders how many people in this channel are actually dead
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12:46:53  <debdog> the ones with a tailing [m]. stands for mortis
12:48:20  <LordAro> haha
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13:31:12  <Samu> reversing is complicated
13:31:35  <Samu> unsure how to do the conversion in the case the articulated road vehicle is reversing
13:31:43  <Samu> on the said affected curves
13:32:23  <Samu> time to switch to draft
13:33:25  <Samu> I know how to do it in my mind, i dont know how to put that into code
13:36:05  <LordAro> a common problem :)
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13:39:20  <andythenorth> I have it the opposite way more
13:39:29  <andythenorth> I could write the code, but I have no idea of the concept I need :P
13:50:14  <Samu> which version of openttd was SLV_198?
13:51:42  <Samu> ops SLV_188
13:53:18  <Samu> ok i need openttd 1.3.x
13:54:41  <Samu> or just a savegame of that era
13:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i could give you some concepts, but they're probably not the ones you need either :p
13:54:47  <Samu> with road vehicles
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14:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i might have scared him off
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14:16:47  <Samu> arf... i need a newgrf that is compatible with 1.3.3, i'm running out of luck
14:17:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman”
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14:20:46  <_dp_> how to address those who identify themselves as a hive mind?
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14:22:31  <LordAro> this is the can of worms i didn't want to open
14:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> allow specifying custom names
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14:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm staying away from language discussions, particularly if it's not my native language
14:23:42  <Timberwolf> Yes, it's the curse of a game from 1994. It's a milder version of the "what do you do when restoring animation from the 1940s?" problem.
14:25:04  <Timberwolf> Attitudes to gender at the point it was created: "Female" and "Male" are distinct binary categories, you can call everything "-man".
14:27:44  <Timberwolf> And this is still relatively recent, so whatever you do will upset someone (either you're not reflecting a modern audience, or you're being "needlessly woke and ruining the game with your virtue signalling" or however people usually complain about this)
14:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the grammar engine does know the concept of genders, all it needs is assigning the biological genders a grammatical gender in the lang file, and propagate that gender to the necessary strings, then each language can handle the situation
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14:30:33  <Timberwolf> I'm too old to actually make a useful judgement on this.
14:30:39  *** Wuzzy is now known as WuzzyBot
14:30:59  <WuzzyBot> Beep bop! It's the WuzzyBot again!
14:31:29  <WuzzyBot> Wuzzy just posted a PR on OpenSFX, it included sound replacements:
14:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just speaking about the technical side here. note that some languages have more genders than just male/female, and some languages don't distinguish male/female but still have other grammatical genders
14:31:37  <Timberwolf> Part of me is saying that's fine, the other part is "but it's still potentially problematic we align feminine appearance with female gender" (although actually, the original sprites have quite a range)
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14:33:16  <Timberwolf> In which case it comes up as an issue in the future, either because someone genuinely has the problem or it's the next low-hanging fruit in a round of, "I have compiled a list of issues you might wish to look at"
14:33:23  <Guest11439> wow I can't believe the "female chairman" bug sparked a major discussion about gender. 😀
14:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> errm... have you had a look at twitter in the past... dunno... 5 years? :p
14:34:36  <Guest11439> no. i dont care about Twitter
14:36:46  <LordAro> probably a good thing
14:37:07  <Guest11439> btw, what did Ohrer say for getting deleted? o_O
14:37:13  <LordAro> "No"
14:37:20  <Guest11439> lol that was all? 😀
14:37:22  <LordAro> i deemed it unhelpful
14:37:35  <Guest11439> 😀
14:37:53  <LordAro> (and also liable to start arguments)
14:39:11  <Guest11439> personally, i dont *really* care one way or another. I slightly would prefer 'chairperson' because its simpler and is literally impossible to be wrong.
14:39:40  <Guest11439> But I wouldn't really mind if the 'chairwoman' solution is done instead
14:39:48  <LordAro> 'chair' is definitely better than 'chairperson'
14:40:11  <Guest11439> there's also businessman/-woman/-person
14:40:22  <Guest11439> and you cant abbreviate that to "business" 😀
14:40:43  <LordAro> indeed not
14:41:08  <Wolf01> I would prefer that people around the world stops bitching about genders, but... if the least work could be to just use gender neutral nouns then that is
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14:50:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman”
14:52:04  <supermop_Home> i am in favor of removing 'businessman' as a rank all together
14:52:11  <supermop_Home> as its pretty meaningless
14:53:07  <supermop_Home> and not that common colloquially anymore
14:53:46  <supermop_Home> in terms of high score list rank it's like receiving 'white-collar worker'
14:54:04  <Samu> ladies and gentleman... I fixed it! (I think)
14:54:29  <Samu> this may mean that the fix on SLV_188 is incomplete
14:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, but how does that solve any of the problems?
14:55:14  <supermop_Home> also there is no reason chair means you must make 'business(x)' match in form
14:55:23  <SpComb> replaced with buergioise / proletariat ranks
14:55:46  <supermop_Home> SpComb no ranks, every level is just comrade
14:56:32  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause businessman sounds like you are an insurance salesman or something
14:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: as i said, i'm not a native english speaker, i can't really judge that
14:57:38  <_dp_> with my english I see that issue like, whatever, just call them "Chair" and "Table" :p
14:58:15  <supermop_Home> doesn't really evoke construction, entrepreneurship, engineering, transport, or any other theme the game might arguably be about
14:58:17  <SpComb> why not compromsie and go for Tableperson
14:59:00  <SpComb> just not sure if that goes above or below Chairperson
14:59:13  <Samu> SLV_188 fix is assuming the vehicle state changes only after every tile movement
14:59:27  <Samu> but that's not true if the vehicle is reversing on the tile
14:59:32  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause the main issue for me i guess is that chair is the most common term for someone who chairs a committee or board of directors. Chairman is less used, and chairperson almost never used
15:00:02  <supermop_Home> we use chairman to talk about Mao historically etc
15:00:03  <Samu> vehicle can be on the same tile and have the reverse state on it
15:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: and my problem with that is that i know "chair" exclusively as a thing you sit on
15:00:18  <Timberwolf> Chair for me feels like it's awkward for people with more limited English. Why is the game calling you a piece of furniture?
15:00:57  <Samu> oh, I see chat is busy, sorry for interrupting
15:01:00  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause in that case isn't a chairman some kind of grotesque furniture / human hybrid
15:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a man who sits on a chair
15:01:32  <Timberwolf> The man who provides chairs?
15:01:55  <Samu> chairman is a new hero
15:02:05  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf surely it would not be translated as 'chair' in languages where it doesn't make sense
15:02:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman”
15:02:37  <Timberwolf> English is kind of inconsistent here. "milkman" and "fireman" do not operate in the same direction.
15:02:55  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause i believe the term comes from the person who 'chairs' the body in question
15:03:00  <Timberwolf> (Actually, the latter does in a railway context. Go overloading.)
15:03:31  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf those terms are a little archaic though, at least in American english
15:03:46  <supermop_Home> as we no longer have milkmen since the 50s or so
15:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> postman?
15:04:06  <supermop_Home> and firefighter has long been used along side fireman
15:04:16  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause we do not have postman
15:04:26  <supermop_Home> we had mailman, now letter carrier
15:04:58  <supermop_Home> though it is still common here to call female letter carriers mailmen
15:05:05  <Timberwolf> Sadly I don't think we've ever adopted "postie" as the official gender neutral term.
15:05:19  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf too Australian
15:05:34  <supermop_Home> Chairie
15:07:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman”
15:07:23  <supermop_Home> neutral terms for chairman are generally more pertinent than for lettercarriers here due to the power-dynamic subtext
15:08:34  <supermop_Home> chairman being the norm with exceptions called chairlady could be seen to reinforce the idea that primarily men should hold chairs
15:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the typical german word is "Postbote" (~ "mail courier") which comes in a female form "Postbotin"
15:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> where -in is a very common suffix to indicate female job titles
15:10:04  <Wuzzy2> but optional
15:10:31  <Wuzzy2> "Postbote" can be read gender-neutral, normally
15:10:50  <Wuzzy2> oddly, there is no "male suffix" in German
15:10:54  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause in English where our grammatical gender has atrophied though, terms that retain gender stick out a lot more
15:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in business language like job openings it's nowaday standard to indicate "we don't care about gender" by appending "(m/w/d)" to any job title
15:12:00  <supermop_Home> in german i would not really be surprised to see any given noun with a gender, but in English it is more of a deliberate statement, as the gender has no grammatical significance
15:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> (male/female/divers)
15:12:25  <Wuzzy2> actually, that's only because companies are required by law to do so
15:12:50  <Wuzzy2> if they dont they might be sued for discrimination or something. but dont ask me, im not an expert 😀
15:13:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really a question about why that is...
15:13:40  <Wuzzy2> so just because they slap a mwd to the job offer doesnt automatically mean they are actually progressive. they just dont want to get sued 😀
15:13:44  <supermop_Home> so here to say 'they are the chairman of that company' you are making a point to indicate they are a man, or that they are expected to be a man'
15:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Wuzzy2: actually, some gender-specific job titles have a male suffix of -er, which gets abbreviated to -e for the female version
15:15:20  <Wuzzy2> ugh, that's not how it works... "-er" is not a suffix
15:15:38  <Wuzzy2> Lehrer ← the "er" is no the suffix that makes it "male"
15:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not every -er is a suffix
15:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but some are
15:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Vorsitzender
15:16:13  <Wuzzy2> same here
15:16:19  <Wuzzy2> the "er" does not make it male
15:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes it does
15:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "Vorsitzende", not "Vorsitzenderin" :p
15:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas it's "Lehrerin", not "Lehre"
15:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> very different
15:18:01  <Wuzzy2> that doesnt really proof your point
15:19:10  <supermop_Home> to me though, i have no problem with letting strings have gender, even if English does not use them
15:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> this is very common for job titles that are made out of a participle
15:19:55  <supermop_Home> but i still insist that 'businessman' is a stupid rank for the highscore list, and 'businessperson' even dumber
15:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause> typically you can spot them by the suffix "-end"
15:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so these take the form [prefix (optional]][verb stem][participle suffix ("-end")][gender suffix ("-er" (male), "-e" (female, neutral, plural)]
15:22:04  <Wuzzy2> i don't have time for this...
15:22:06  <Wuzzy2>
15:22:24  <Wuzzy2> let's talk about OpenSFX
15:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> in this case the verb stem is "sitz" [="seat"], so you get vor|sitz|end|er
15:23:03  <Wuzzy2> Have you looked at my new PR that replaces some non-free sounds?:
15:23:27  <Eddi|zuHause> which should be vaguely equivalent to "chairman"
15:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> funnily enough, "president" actually means the same thing, just sounds fancier
15:26:41  <Wuzzy2> "President" is already taken for another title, sorry
15:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i know.
15:28:13  <orudge> Wuzzy2: I am intending to have a look at it when I get a moment. (Not necessarily sure when that mighe be though!)
15:28:30  <Wuzzy2> cool
15:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i just mean it's made of exactly the same components, meaning the exact same, except derived from a more prestigeous language
15:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> thus making it sound more fancy
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15:34:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8609: Fix: Equalise the number of frames needed for road vehicles to traverse different radius curves
15:41:27  <Samu> road vehicle works, articulated road vehicle works, tram works, articulated tram works, drive on left works, drive on right works, overtaking works, reversing works.
15:41:51  <Samu> Am I still forgetting anything that needs conversion?
15:48:32  <Samu> will it conflict with SLV_188
16:11:05  <TrueBrain> orudge: I see the Steam Partner stuff went through; I can just fill in all information we have so far etc? :)
16:37:09  *** Progman has joined #openttd
16:41:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8610: `terraform_frame_burst` (and similar settings) are stored to 16-bit integers instead of 32 bits.
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16:55:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8611: Possible overflow in landscaping rate limit handling can introduce randomness into whether landscaping succeeds
17:25:08  <TrueBrain> what is the minimum CPU OpenTTD needs ... eeeuuuuhhhhh
17:28:01  <TrueBrain> we have more languages than Steam supports :D Nice!
17:32:48  <_dp_> wait, openttd going on steam?
17:33:56  <_dp_> wasn't there some unresolvable licensing issue?
17:34:16  <LordAro> that was the appstore
17:34:44  <TrueBrain> _dp_: we will see how things go, but I am filling in things :P
17:34:46  <TrueBrain> so many trick questions
17:34:48  <TrueBrain> are we "indie"
17:34:49  <TrueBrain> I guess?
17:35:08  <LordAro> look at other OSS games on there?
17:35:29  <_dp_> just pick whatever sounds the coolest :p
17:35:48  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I am :)
17:35:55  <TrueBrain> a lot of copy/pasting is going on :P
17:36:24  <TrueBrain> Trains -> Simulation -> Sandbox -> Moddable
17:36:27  <TrueBrain> sounds like a good order of tags :)
17:36:58  <_dp_> btw, I think nimby rails was released today
17:37:04  <_dp_> new game for all the fans of "realism"
17:37:43  <_dp_> boring af though imo
17:39:04  * _dp_ "played" enough JOSM in his life
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17:39:54  <glx> TrueBrain> what is the minimum CPU OpenTTD needs ... eeeuuuuhhhhh <-- depends on many factors
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17:40:13  <TrueBrain> glx: minimum
17:40:26  <glx> minimum is quite low
17:40:34  <TrueBrain> I know .. but I cannot fill in: "quite low"
17:40:39  <TrueBrain> I am not new here, in case you didn't know :P
17:40:47  <TrueBrain> I wrote down 500 MHz
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17:40:53  <TrueBrain> which is an upgrade from the Wiki that says 233 MHz
17:43:29  <Timberwolf> Trying to think what the worst thing I've run recent builds on. Core M laptop is definitely happy unless you go mad, but that's still a lot more powerful than a 233MHz Pentium II.
17:43:53  <TrueBrain> for us, that question is just silly
17:43:58  <TrueBrain> it is "what ever you have there"
17:44:16  <Timberwolf> Pretty much. You have to go out of your way to find something it *won't* run on.
17:45:02  <TrueBrain> same with memory .. what is the minimum? 256?
17:45:44  <andythenorth> minimum mac spec: M1 :P
17:46:21  <Timberwolf> What are the requirements for Steam itself? It's pretty much a case of, "if you got this far, you can run it"
17:47:33  * Timberwolf ignores the current Discord discussion about needing to boost cores above 4GHz to run some of the 8192*8192 maps.
17:47:57  <andythenorth> M1 mac
17:48:08  * andythenorth might get repetitive
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17:48:11  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I ran OTTD on my 133MHz laptop
17:48:12  <Timberwolf> This is going to be the consequence of putting it on Steam isn't it, a ton of "JGR on workshop when?"
17:48:16  <andythenorth> yes
17:48:23  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: haha, yes, that is not our intended audience :)
17:48:37  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: lolz
17:48:58  <FLHerne> (it was a PPC one, so a bit faster than an equivalent Intel machine at the time)
17:49:02  <TrueBrain> turns out, I can just not mention Processor, and it won't show
17:49:04  <TrueBrain> works as well
17:49:16  <Timberwolf> Processor: yes.
17:49:23  <FLHerne> heh
17:49:42  <glx> and for GPU until we merge opengl there's no requirements
17:50:00  <TrueBrain> memory is clearly at least 128MB
17:50:12  <TrueBrain> at least 256MB if ingame
17:50:13  <TrueBrain> fine
17:50:22  <FLHerne> Nah, said laptop was 64MB :p
17:50:28  <FLHerne> I mean, it swapped a bit
17:50:37  <FLHerne> (and I think that was pre-linkgraph)
17:50:43  <TrueBrain> .... that ... is also memory :P
17:51:05  <FLHerne> Well, not in the sense that most people care about
17:51:09  <FLHerne> But fin
17:51:10  <FLHerne> e
17:52:54  <TrueBrain>
17:52:55  <TrueBrain> :D
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17:54:01  <glx> btw I couldn't load the huge #8606 save  in debug build with 3.30GHz CPU (well I gave after 1h of still loading)
17:54:08  <glx> *gave up
17:54:55  <glx> but I think it was stuck in catchment area recalculation, which is STL intensive
17:56:01  <TrueBrain> lol, I have to enter a description per language ... that might take a bit of time :P
17:56:27  <glx> that's optional I think
17:56:30  <TrueBrain> sure is
17:56:38  <TrueBrain> but ... boy, that interface is not the most useful
17:57:10  <TrueBrain> do we have the translation of "OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based upon Transport Tycoon Deluxe" somewhere, hmmm
17:57:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: we could put JGR under the "betas" selection?
17:57:49  <TrueBrain> "beta" won't do it justice
17:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's what the menu is called... many games put "previous version(s)" in there
17:59:25  <Eddi|zuHause> particularly long-support games that don't guarantee savegame-compatibility
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18:02:09  <TrueBrain> wtf is landcode "el"? :D
18:02:49  <orudge> TrueBrain: good news, I have an OpenTTD game registered on a certain major game store
18:03:00  <orudge> Need to do some work before we can publish anything
18:03:15  <orudge> but it's a step in the right direction :)
18:03:17  <TrueBrain> I guess the only correct answer is: welcome to 2 hours ago? :P
18:03:30  <TrueBrain> EL seems to be greek
18:03:45  <orudge> Aha
18:03:51  <orudge> Missed that :P
18:03:51  <TrueBrain> orudge: I am happily copy/pasting stuff :P
18:04:18  <orudge> Need to prepare branding and screenshots etc (we must ensure these are OpenGFX, not original GFX)
18:04:26  <TrueBrain> yup
18:04:31  <TrueBrain> I will take care of that, first round at least :)
18:05:50  <orudge> Regarding licensing, I don't think there's a problem if we avoid Steamworks integration (which we don't have anyway)
18:06:36  <TrueBrain> our wiki is not translated in Swedish
18:06:36  <TrueBrain> pfft
18:06:47  <TrueBrain> nor Danish
18:07:00  <orudge> I also didn't select Linux/SteamOS yet until we have a suitable binary to run on it
18:07:16  <TrueBrain> I am selecting it all, I am going to upload stuff, and see how big it breaks :P
18:07:30  <orudge> IIRC SteamOS is Debian-based?
18:07:38  <orudge> Ah right
18:08:01  <orudge> You can grant users preview access, so a few of us could test it out
18:08:12  <TrueBrain> yup
18:08:20  <TrueBrain> give me a few to go through all these boring questions
18:08:26  <TrueBrain> like ... is a train accident consider violence?
18:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
18:08:51  <SpComb> people died!
18:09:06  <TrueBrain> seemly we will be rated L under Brazilian law
18:09:09  <TrueBrain> ain't that awesome?
18:10:07  <orudge> One thing we can choose to do is automatically sync a user's Documents/OpenTTD directory to Steam Cloud. Not sure if we'd want to though!
18:10:15  <orudge> or if we use a different dir for Steam builds
18:10:15  <TrueBrain> Download Photoshop templates for the specific sized images here: <- so, who has Photoshop? :P
18:10:29  <orudge> Probably just leave it to start with!
18:10:49  <TrueBrain> orudge: indeed; we just click all the buttons first
18:10:53  <TrueBrain> and we will see later what we can add
18:12:14  <TrueBrain> we should make a trailer too :D
18:12:18  <orudge> When you have branding for Steam, perhaps I can use or adapt it to make the Windows Store page nicer
18:12:25  <orudge> That too :)
18:13:17  <TrueBrain> yeah, I will "gimp" in a bit
18:13:26  <TrueBrain> I would hope someone with a bit more eye for pixels would volunteer
18:13:30  <TrueBrain> but I don't see andythenorth doing that atm :P
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18:14:13  * orudge has no eye for pixels :D
18:14:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:14:15  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:18:42  * andythenorth is working nearly all hours of nearly all days
18:18:45  <frosch123> someone entered their name as "subject" of their email
18:19:28  <andythenorth> discord content creators probably could make a trailer
18:19:37  <andythenorth> it would be for JGRPP, but we overlook that?
18:19:47  <andythenorth> there are quite a few of them
18:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: using JGR is instant disqualification
18:21:39  <TrueBrain> I made the most boring "small capsule" ever :D This will be fun :P
18:27:08  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: There's that disaster where a fighter blows up an oil refinery
18:29:22  <TrueBrain> we need a competition for these images, honestly
18:29:24  <orudge> TrueBrain: also, since I'm aware that CS has games on Steam, I would personally avoid any direct reference to "Transport Tycoon" in the description, etc
18:29:28  <TrueBrain> can we combine that with the title screen one? :)
18:29:36  <orudge> and just refer to it as a transport simulator or similar
18:29:44  <TrueBrain> orudge: means I don't have any translations :P
18:29:49  <orudge> Maybe
18:30:00  <orudge> but trademark infringement etc
18:30:52  <orudge> Can we add non-game translations to eints?
18:31:02  <orudge> I need translations for the Windows Store too
18:31:05  <TrueBrain> not disagreeing, it is just funny we have had it for years on our wiki :)
18:31:13  <orudge> Yeah
18:31:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: can we?
18:31:23  <TrueBrain> otherwise we might use Discussions for these few strings, honestly
18:32:34  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we had fake projects for other translations before
18:32:40  <frosch123> but eints is not good for "long" texts
18:33:33  <frosch123> also, you would have to sync them manually to somewhere
18:35:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you could also use the wiki :p
18:35:13  <TrueBrain> that manual part is true no matter what .. at least, I doubt I can update this via the API :)
18:35:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I was considering it
18:35:28  <TrueBrain> and asking in Discussions if they can at least translate these N pages
18:35:36  <TrueBrain> orudge: removed any reference to TTD, as far as I can tell :)
18:35:44  <TrueBrain> copy/pasted it from the wikipedia ... is that evil? :D
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18:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow purging all references to TTD seems morally wrong
18:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's where we're entering territory of "plagiarizing" instead of keeping an old game alive
18:40:36  <TrueBrain> Your way of stating that is not really productive, but it is a point nevertheless
18:40:42  <TrueBrain> I now just copy pasted what-ever is on the wikipedia page
18:43:28  <orudge> The readme still mentions it, but given you can buy Locomotion on Steam (which CS views as 'TT2'), he might object to his trademark being used on another game
18:43:53  <TrueBrain> wikipedia avoids the trademark issue by referencing it,I think
18:44:02  <TrueBrain> "OpenTTD gameplay is very similar to Transport Tycoon Deluxe (a game by Chris Sawyer from 1994), on which it is based, although there are many improvements in both options within the game and ease of use."
18:44:41  <orudge> Anyway, it remains to be seen if Valve actually approve the game
18:44:49  <orudge> Hopefully they will :)
18:45:47  <milek7_> why they wouldn't?
18:46:16  <TrueBrain> right, I need 5 screenshots ...
18:46:28  <TrueBrain> in 1920x1080
18:47:39  <TrueBrain> with only GRFs loaded of which we can distribute the gfx .. :P
18:54:03  <TrueBrain> making the gfx for these stores is a day-time-job
18:57:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] MalaGaM opened issue #135: [fr_FR] Translator access request
18:59:56  <TrueBrain> and ... more images needed .. omg .. this really is an endless stream of similar-but-different images :)
19:00:12  <TrueBrain> sometimes PNG, sometimes JPG, sometimes TGA, sometimes: pick-what-ever-you-like
19:00:13  <TrueBrain> lol
19:01:12  * andythenorth has an image CDN :P
19:01:27  <andythenorth> it does on the fly-transforms for sizes, formats, crops etc
19:01:31  <andythenorth> it's super!
19:01:43  <andythenorth> not sure it helps this case :(
19:03:07  <TrueBrain> no, they are all similar but different
19:03:11  <TrueBrain> like the top right image
19:03:12  <TrueBrain> the background image
19:03:14  <TrueBrain> the banner
19:03:16  <TrueBrain> the library backgroun
19:03:20  <TrueBrain> the community logo
19:03:56  <andythenorth> media pack!
19:03:58  <andythenorth> etc
19:04:12  <andythenorth> we need a media expert!
19:04:25  * andythenorth is no use today :)
19:04:31  <andythenorth> brain is in work
19:20:40  <TrueBrain> haha, the publishing part of Steam is nice .. basically a "ARE YOU REALLY SURE?!" :D
19:22:32  <TrueBrain> I wonder if we can upload .dmg files for macOS, or that it needs it unpacked :) I think the latter :P
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19:37:10  <TrueBrain> lol, we are 5 MiB on Steam :P How cute :D
19:37:23  <TrueBrain> it "just works" .. amazing
19:37:49  <andythenorth> \o/
19:38:37  <LordAro> :o
19:38:39  <TrueBrain> no clue if the macOS version works, but I guess I need to install that VM after all ..
19:38:45  <TrueBrain> still tons of things to do .. mostly making images
19:38:50  <TrueBrain> making sure they look good, etc
19:41:53  <andythenorth> TrueBrain maybe the OpenTTD funds require you to buy an M1 mac :P for testing
19:41:56  <TrueBrain> lol .. there is a difference between the 1.10.3 zips and 1.11.0-beta1 zips
19:42:03  <TrueBrain> for windows
19:42:10  <TrueBrain> the 1.10.3 has the files in the zip, as most zips have
19:42:15  <TrueBrain> in the 1.11.0-beta1, it has a folder first
19:42:42  <LordAro> most zips have a folder first, don't they?
19:42:46  <TrueBrain> funny, how those small difference can influence things like Steam :D
19:42:54  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no, zips do not .. Windows doesn't do that :P
19:43:00  <orudge> TrueBrain: add "orudge" and I can test the Mac version
19:43:01  <TrueBrain> if you unzip a zip, it creates a folder based on the zip filename
19:43:21  <LordAro> i'm not sure about that
19:43:34  <TrueBrain> LordAro: try it on Windows :) Zip something, unzip something
19:43:43  <TrueBrain> it is really annoying, as it goes against anything  Linux-like :)
19:43:53  <TrueBrain> orudge: seems that is not that easy .. I just created a new Steam account to make it easier
19:44:04  <TrueBrain> as now I am part of the "dev team" :P
19:44:07  <TrueBrain> I have to request keys, it seems
19:44:16  <TrueBrain> but I will do that, as we want more testers, I am sure :)
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19:45:26  <TrueBrain> takes "a day or two" to review a request for 20 keys
19:45:27  <TrueBrain> lol
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19:47:27  <TrueBrain> LordAro: btw, I happen to know the zip quirk, as for the CF this used to be a bit of an issue .. and people complaining and shit .. :P But CPack does it with a folder, so fuck everyone 10 years ago, and we are going to add a root folder :)
19:47:41  <TrueBrain> but Steam doesn't like it :D
19:47:54  <TrueBrain> (you can only upload zips)
19:50:02  <TrueBrain> orudge: I am somewhat surprised Steam allows unsigned executables for Windows :P
19:51:31  <TrueBrain> right, so for later this week: more images, figuring out what to upload for Linux + SteamOS, and figuring out how to do macOS for 1.11 :D
19:52:04  <orudge> I suspect macOS would just be the .app in a zip?
19:52:08  <orudge> Are you also including
19:52:09  <TrueBrain> possibly we can even push a nightly there every night ...
19:52:33  <orudge> Are you also including OpenGFX and OpenSFX? (I do on the Win Store)
19:52:35  <TrueBrain> orudge: I need to lookup if it can handle .dmg, but it doesn't look like it .. so I need a "zip" version :P
19:52:43  <TrueBrain> orudge: you do? Hmm, I did not .. but I can
19:52:46  <TrueBrain> small effort honestly
19:52:52  <TrueBrain> also OpenMSX?
19:52:56  <orudge> Maybe beta releases, perhaps not nightly
19:52:58  <orudge> Yeah
19:53:10  <TrueBrain> I have a common depot, so yeah, sure, why not
19:53:17  <TrueBrain> prevents the annoying bootstrap
19:53:23  <orudge> Yup
19:53:26  <orudge> and saves us bandwidth
19:53:34  <orudge> Better Valve pays for it ;)
19:53:37  <TrueBrain> but if you ever install OpenTTD, it will just use the common folder :D
19:53:41  <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, good point :P
19:54:13  <TrueBrain> I only distribute MacOS for 64bit btw
19:54:24  <TrueBrain> as in, you cannot install the game on 32bit :P
19:54:27  <orudge> Yep
19:54:33  <orudge> We don't build 32-bit
19:54:42  <orudge> and macOS 32-bit only OSes are ancient
19:55:31  <TrueBrain> right, till the keys arrive, I cannot show you what I did this far .. or you need to want to signup under orudge@ :) But I guess we can wait 2 days
19:55:32  <orudge> I wonder if Steam will support ARM64 any time soon...
19:55:43  <orudge> I can wait
19:55:55  <orudge> Need to pack things up and move boxes tonight
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19:56:32  <TrueBrain> enjoy :)
20:01:35  *** otetede has quit IRC
20:02:34  <TrueBrain> okay, uploading can be automated, so that is nice
20:10:28  <frosch123> TrueBrain: opensfx is non-free. it forbids commerical use, whatever that means
20:10:44  <TrueBrain> We are not using it commercially, are we?
20:10:55  <TrueBrain> (honest question, btw)
20:11:14  <frosch123> no idea either :)
20:11:16  <TrueBrain> if we put it up (for free) on Windows Store and Steam, that should be fine, not?
20:11:53  <frosch123> probably, just something to keep in mind, which may conflict with steam, or may not
20:12:04  <TrueBrain> yeah, valid point
20:15:19  <gregdek> until a lawyer says otherwise
20:16:35  <FLHerne> frosch123: There's an MR for that
20:16:55  <FLHerne> frosch123:
20:17:16  <LordAro> "MR"? what is this, gitlab? :p
20:19:11  * FLHerne interacts with gitlab more ;-)
20:20:24  <frosch123> FLHerne: i mute all games, i am not qualified to review sound changes
20:20:50  * FLHerne also
20:21:10  <TrueBrain> Dyson Sphere Program has excellent music .. first game I did not mute music yet
20:21:16  <FLHerne> Except Minecraft, because zombies are enough of a pain when you can hear them
20:21:21  <TrueBrain> the game on its own is really well done, but the music, boy ... it is good
20:22:42  <TrueBrain> so that dude emailed info@ in Czech, asking for when one-way street comes to OpenTTD
20:22:49  <TrueBrain> well, I would like to tell him: good news, it is already there
20:22:53  <TrueBrain> I just don't speak Czech
20:23:03  <TrueBrain> and I don't trust Google Translate to make anything sane out of it
20:25:01  * Timberwolf has the sounds on at a low level, maybe I should build it and have a play around.
20:26:01  <Timberwolf> I tend not to have the music but that's out of having heard it a *lot* of times, and also these days turning music on is then the start of an odyssey to get exactly the right emulation settings for the output device.
20:26:55  <Timberwolf> I do have a King Curtis album that is so similar in style to some of the original soundtrack I wonder if John Broomhall also had it in his list of influences :)
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20:42:27  <TrueBrain> hmm, by the looks of it, SteamOS doesn't come with SDL preinstalled
20:42:32  <TrueBrain> so .. static builds I guess :P
20:44:31  <TrueBrain> owh, not in SteamOS, but they are in steam-runtime
20:44:38  <TrueBrain> also FreeType and fontconfig
20:44:45  <TrueBrain> so OpenTTD might just work "out-of-the-box"
20:45:00  <LordAro> SDL2, presumably?
20:45:09  <LordAro> or is SteamOS still based on ancient ubuntu?
20:45:16  <TrueBrain> based on debian jessie
20:45:20  <TrueBrain> which we dropped, as .. c++17
20:45:27  <LordAro> much olds
20:45:28  <TrueBrain> who's idea was that again?
20:45:43  <LordAro> hahaha
20:47:07  <TrueBrain> apt-get install --force-yes -y gcc-4.8 g++-4.8
20:47:14  <TrueBrain> and clang 3.4 and 3.6
20:47:24  <TrueBrain> owh, and gcc 5!
20:47:57  <TrueBrain> odd, their steam-runtime is based on ubuntu
20:48:02  <TrueBrain> okay, information about this is really confusing :P
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20:49:24  <frosch123> jessie would be old-old-stable. then they can as well use centos :p
20:49:45  <TrueBrain> they also run their own packages
20:50:09  <TrueBrain> but okay, at least libsdl2 is in the repo, so .. that sounds like it is supported
20:50:18  <TrueBrain> gcc-9 is too
20:50:28  <TrueBrain> I just have to install this, and check it out, honestly :)
20:50:32  <LordAro> franken-distro
20:50:32  <frosch123> wiki says "latest release: july 2019". is steamso still a thing?
20:51:23  <milek7_> they moved on to something newer
20:51:27  <TrueBrain> ah, okay, SteamOS might be debian:jessie, but they use chroots to run Steam applications
20:51:51  <TrueBrain> and in the chroot it installed steam-runtime
20:51:56  <TrueBrain> which is a bit more up-to-date :)
20:55:12  <TrueBrain> there is even a docker image .. so it seems we should be able to build OpenTTD inside there, and that should just run on any Linux machine with Steam installed
20:55:24  <TrueBrain> so ... yeah ... testing required :D
20:55:40  <frosch123> <- that looks hardly maintained
20:56:50  <milek7_>
20:56:54  <TrueBrain> that is the bootstrap itself, frosch123
20:56:59  <TrueBrain> that doesn't really need maintaining, it seems
20:57:08  <TrueBrain> they have their own apt repo
20:57:16  <TrueBrain> which gets a new release every month, by the looks of it
21:02:23  <TrueBrain> finally found a list I can parse:
21:02:31  <TrueBrain> I, as in, the human in me
21:02:38  <TrueBrain> so yeah, SDL2 is there :)
21:03:07  <TrueBrain> not fluidsynth
21:03:30  <TrueBrain> and no ICU .. hmm
21:04:15  <TrueBrain> LordAro: didn't we clean up the libxdg dependency with your PR?
21:04:23  <TrueBrain> it is still in the release part, it seems
21:05:19  <TrueBrain> hmm .. no lzma, lzo2, ICU, and fluidsynth .. well, we can just ship them next to the binary for Steam, tbh
21:05:22  <TrueBrain> not that big of a deal
21:05:52  <TrueBrain> will take a bit of effort, but by the looks, not an impossible task
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21:15:56  <Timberwolf> OK, well that was a good start - ended up reviewing OpenSFX against vanilla TTD sounds, not PR #8 against OpenSFX.
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21:25:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #133: [de_DE] Translator access request
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21:28:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #134: [nl_NL] Translator access request
21:30:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #135: [fr_FR] Translator access request
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22:16:48  <Timberwolf> NML Q: Does `param[<grfid>, <num>]` have any dependency on load order, or is it fine to test only `grf_future_status` if I want to use parameters from another loaded GRF?
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22:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: does "it's complicated" count?
22:21:53  <Timberwolf> Yes :)
22:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: in general, newgrfs are loaded in multiple stages. so it goes multiple times through all the newgrfs in order, and each time more information is available
22:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you have action 7 and action 9
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22:42:37  <supermop_Home> where do i get the most current nml?
22:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> release or master?
22:45:39  <FLHerne> Latest release should always be in `pip`
22:45:43  <FLHerne> Otherwise github
22:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also go to
23:00:42  <supermop_Home> thanks
23:01:44  <supermop_Home> figured i need to update unspooled, and hopefully gain the motivation to fix everything wrong in my RV set
23:02:02  <supermop_Home> maybe starting by giving it a real name so people will actually use it
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23:38:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail opened issue #8612: Fail to build Flatpak for openttd 1.11.0-beta1

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