Log for #openttd on 7th February 2021:
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04:41:33  <jgx> seeking compile help under "Linux Mint 19.2" ; problems in src/music/allegro_m.cpp
04:45:53  <jgx> Version string: 20210125-master-m67fa5a23b9
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08:12:47  <andythenorth> yo
08:12:53  <andythenorth> send cat
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08:23:07  <Wolf01> Who got sand from sahara direct to home delivery?
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08:43:44  <TrueBrain> jgx: you have to be a bit more specific. "problems" is rather undefined. So better to ask what exactly, or otherwise our bugtracker is happy to receive some words of text too :)
08:46:29  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have problems!
08:46:30  <andythenorth> pls help!
08:47:13  <TrueBrain> we all know, and those are also not fixable by mere mortals, sorry
08:47:13  <TrueBrain> :P
08:49:08  <andythenorth> oof
08:49:15  <andythenorth> is this not #traintherapy
08:49:18  <andythenorth> ?
08:49:20  <andythenorth> wrong channel?
08:51:07  <TrueBrain> this is a day of: I should do A, but lets first finish X
08:51:08  <TrueBrain> after X
08:51:11  <TrueBrain> what was I going to do again?
08:53:31  <TrueBrain> first time in 10 years we had a snowstorm in our country
08:53:35  <TrueBrain> the snow is up against my door
08:53:41  <TrueBrain> if I open it, I am not going to be able to close it
08:53:42  <TrueBrain> :P
08:54:07  <andythenorth> oof
08:54:11  <andythenorth> go sledging
08:55:12  <TrueBrain> changing the order of screenshots on Steam takes a bit out of you
08:55:17  <TrueBrain> drag ... wait ... wait ... wait ... wait ...
08:55:18  <TrueBrain> drag
08:55:20  <TrueBrain> waiiiiitttttt
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09:19:50  <TrueBrain> the amount of people that wishlisted OpenTTD on Steam are 10% linux, 89% Windows, and 1% macOS :P
09:20:18  <TrueBrain> the rockpapershotgun article seems to have helped with the amount of people that wishlisted it :P
09:35:38  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: macOS on VMWare works a lot better than on VirtualBox, holy crap .. that is a world of difference :P
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10:01:43  <andythenorth> oof GRM
10:01:58  <andythenorth> seems can't have 2 versions of CHIPS active, even with different grfids
10:02:09  <andythenorth> as they use GRM, presumably for same sprite ranges
10:02:14  * andythenorth guessing
10:02:24  <TrueBrain> fix it!
10:02:36  <TrueBrain> (or maybe more important .. why do you want 2 versions active :P)
10:03:00  <andythenorth> I am trying to provide a legacy version
10:03:11  <andythenorth> as I just changed a load of stuff, that breaks other things
10:03:23  <andythenorth> and players WILL try and load both grfs
10:03:32  <andythenorth> and that WILL cause bug reports on reddit
10:03:37  <andythenorth> then I will cry
10:03:49  <TrueBrain> :(
10:04:39  <andythenorth> kinda thinking just move FORWARDS
10:04:44  <andythenorth> the past is broken
10:26:18  <TrueBrain> lol .. so I couldn't find the VMWare Tools for MacOS
10:26:24  <TrueBrain> so I installed VMWare Fusion inside of the VM
10:26:26  <TrueBrain> THERE THEY ARE :)
10:34:45  <TrueBrain> hmm, network is not working .. sadddd
10:38:22  <TrueBrain> mostly, NAT doesn't work
10:38:23  <TrueBrain> fine
10:38:24  <TrueBrain> be like that
10:40:42  <jgx> TrueBrain - of course. that was just a whistle in the wind. Is this the right place? Seems the compile channel is closed.
10:40:58  <TrueBrain> @topic get 3
10:40:59  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:41:01  <TrueBrain> is our motto
10:42:24  <jgx> Ah, yes, been at this for hours since I read that. Is allegro4 or allegro5? Loads of errors in Building CXX object CMakeFiles/openttd.dir/src/music/allegro_m.cpp.o that look like missing include/libs
10:42:40  <jgx> error: ‘MIDI’ does not name a type; etc
10:43:02  <TrueBrain> in general allegro is only used for DOS (lol, I know right)
10:43:10  <TrueBrain> so my first question is: why are you trying allegro?
10:43:12  <jgx> allegro docs are incomplete; typedef struct MIDI is mentioned but ther reference foes nowhere
10:43:13  <TrueBrain> (honest question)
10:43:35  <jgx> Just following the instructions...
10:43:44  <TrueBrain> what instructions would that be?
10:44:02  <jgx> cmake found allegro so it is attempting to pull it in
10:44:10  <TrueBrain> ah, you have it installed locally :)
10:44:16  <TrueBrain> it has been a while anyone tried the allegro driver I am sure :D
10:45:31  <jgx> mkdir build ; cd build ; cmake .. ; make
10:45:35  <TrueBrain> now I need to remember how to tell CMake to stop using Allegro :P
10:45:55  <Wolf01> Meh, got the test result, still positive :S
10:46:03  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: wow, that is taking forever :(
10:46:49  <jgx> I can turn it off for building under linux? If so, I'll dothat. it is nearing dawn ...
10:46:50  <TrueBrain> jgx: do you have allegro 4 or 5 installed?
10:46:58  <jgx> allegro5
10:46:59  <TrueBrain> for linux, you only need SDL
10:47:29  <TrueBrain> allegro should compile, but there is no need to use it, really :)
10:47:36  <TrueBrain> I will look into why it fails compiling
10:47:52  <jgx> Great info! Thanks - will try after I sleep. Worst case I'll just uninstall allegro until I get it built
10:48:11  <TrueBrain> and if you just want to play the game, you can also download our generic linux build
10:48:31  <jgx> Much obliged for the tips.
10:48:57  <TrueBrain> no worries
10:50:20  <michi_cc> Hmm, mouse movement on OSX is kinda broken for me, as apparently warping the mouse cursor doesn't work at all. I'm suspecting some interference with VM guest drivers...
10:50:48  <TrueBrain> I am installing 11.2 now :D
10:51:05  <TrueBrain> okay, allegro4 works
10:51:11  <TrueBrain> allegro5 is not being detected by CMake for me .. hmm
10:51:45  <jgx> it's linked in /etc/alternatives. I'll put up allegro4 and retry
10:52:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
10:53:11  <michi_cc> Okay, that pitch bug is now squashed.
10:54:28  <TrueBrain> hmm, nope, when I installed it on ubuntu 20.04, it doesn't want to detect allegro5 :)
10:54:36  <TrueBrain> so I guess the driver works only with allegro4 :P
10:55:12  <TrueBrain> yeah, it registers itself in pkg-config as allegro-5
10:55:14  <TrueBrain> which makes sense
10:55:41  <TrueBrain> what OS are you on jgx ?
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11:05:15  <erle-> Which one is more active, zBase or aBasE?
11:05:36  <LordAro> neither
11:07:54  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> the rockpapershotgun article seems to have helped... <- and yet it expanded a non-acronym :P
11:08:54  <Wolf01> So it helps in one way and kicks you in the back :D
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11:15:24  <michi_cc> Does andythenorth have time for a short test?
11:15:35  <andythenorth> I will shortly yes :)
11:26:57  <SpComb> I like the minimum system requirements on steam :D "Processor: Yes"
11:27:12  <SpComb> is it just a free text field?
11:31:07  <TrueBrain> yup
11:31:33  <TrueBrain> awh, 11.2 upgrade failed .. curious in what state I will be getting the system back now :)
11:32:03  <TrueBrain> SpComb: they suggest to fill in those fields; it is not mandatory, but they rather have that you do. I couldn't think off any sane value, so Yes was suggested :)
11:32:21  * andythenorth waits for linker
11:35:51  <TrueBrain> and I just retry the 11.2 upgrade .. see if a second time goes any better :D
11:36:22  <andythenorth> michi_cc anything significant changed since last night?
11:36:24  <andythenorth> or just tidying?
11:36:38  <michi_cc> No, that push was an unrelated bugfix.
11:36:44  <andythenorth> FPS difference to master seems lower, but might just be the section of map I'm looking at
11:37:16  <michi_cc> So, my problem with the mouse stuff is that apparently my virtualized mouse behaves slightly different.
11:37:49  <michi_cc> So I need a baseline how the mouse behaves on a real system, both on my PR and on master.
11:38:10  * andythenorth tries different parts of map
11:38:25  <andythenorth> yeah 8652 is still much faster, maybe 50% - 100% depending what's being drawn
11:38:26  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Do you want to start with the PR or with master?
11:38:54  <andythenorth> for a mouse baseline?
11:39:16  <michi_cc> I have a tiny change for you to do the the source and then some questions about the result :)
11:40:16  <andythenorth> ok
11:40:30  <andythenorth> well currently 8652 is checked out and ready to build
11:40:33  <andythenorth> so let's start there
11:40:54  <michi_cc> As you just compiled the PR, lets start with it. In the file src/video/cocoa/ at line 472 there a part that is "[ NSCursor arrowCursor ] : [ NSCursor clearCocoaCursor ]"
11:41:05  <michi_cc> Change the clearCocoaCursor to arrowCursor as well.
11:41:49  <michi_cc> If you then run OTTD, the system mouse cursor should stay visible.
11:42:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
11:45:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
11:45:42  <TrueBrain> did not know you could use version limits with pkg-config; pretty sweet you can :)
11:46:32  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: VM snapshots help with that
11:46:43  <TrueBrain> using Player, so I cannot snapshot :(
11:48:13  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "bake stored procedures into the toolchain, so nml can just simulate providing extra vars" <- how would that differ from procedures as they exist now?
11:48:31  <andythenorth> nml would provide them
11:48:35  <andythenorth> instead of me
11:48:54  <FLHerne> I see
11:48:55  <andythenorth> e.g. things like neighbouring vehicle checks
11:49:12  <andythenorth> there are only a few use cases for them, but we can now construct pseudo-vars
11:49:23  <andythenorth> "it's probably a terrible idea"
11:50:12  <andythenorth> michi_cc compiling...although...system cursor is usually visible for me anyway
11:50:59  <andythenorth> ok compiled
11:51:06  <andythenorth> what do you want?  screen record?
11:51:53  <andythenorth> FLHerne 'random bits from lead part of articulated vehicle' is an example case
11:52:05  <michi_cc> Okay, so a) start, b) set a scrolling mode that has a fixed cursor, c) scroll, d) is system cursor staying put? e) if you end scroll and then move the mouse a tiny bit, does the cursor jump?
11:54:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
11:54:30  <andythenorth> a, b, c) done d) no e) yes michi_cc
11:55:42  <michi_cc> Okay. Now it's just the same test for master instead. This time, it's line 466 to change.
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12:05:21  <andythenorth> michi_cc a, b, c) done d) no, system cursor has a very slight jitter, especially if I move mouse fast enough, but it snaps back to same position e) n/a, system cursor snaps back to openttd cursor position
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12:05:56  <michi_cc> Okay, thanks. Now I have to see if I can get my VM to replicate that behaviour, otherwise testing will be painful :)
12:06:07  <andythenorth> the behaviour at least is very stable :)
12:10:44  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Did you use left or right mouse scrolling, BTW?
12:12:26  <andythenorth> RMB it seems, although I actually hold down cmd to use it
12:12:35  <andythenorth> not sure if I configured that, been doing it for 10 years
12:13:33  <michi_cc> Right mouse button emulation with Cmd is the default setting I think.
12:18:12  <michi_cc> Ah, I need to set gaming mode to "always" to get sane mouse behaviour in VMware.
12:18:26  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: There's no GUI setting for game mode in Player, BTW.
12:18:50  <TrueBrain> yeah, there are more issues with using Player :P
12:18:55  <TrueBrain> I might upgrade :)
12:19:10  <michi_cc> Well, it's still there, you just need the edit the INI yourself.
12:21:41  <TrueBrain> currently the 11.2 upgrade keeps crashing, so I need to put back a copy (manual snapshot ftw!)
12:24:07  <michi_cc> I'm running 10.14 as 11 felt a lot slower.
12:24:37  <michi_cc> I have a VM with around, too, but 10.14 just runs a lot smoother for me.
12:24:52  <TrueBrain> just the video output is laggy as ....
12:25:11  <michi_cc> Excatly that is why I do the work on 10.14.
12:25:12  <TrueBrain> well, I just want to install Steam on it to so I can check myself everything is working from time to time, honestly :)
12:26:23  <FLHerne> TrueBrain:  <- more correcting needed ;-)
12:26:34  <TrueBrain> welcome to yesterday FLHerne  ;)
12:26:49  <FLHerne> Ok :p
12:26:58  <TrueBrain> but we told them many times already in various of ways over the years ..
12:27:01  <TrueBrain> it is one of the few places I gave up on
12:27:18  <TrueBrain> I like their article
12:28:12  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: This time they're referring to you personally, you'd think that would help :p
12:28:25  <LordAro> find the author on twitter
12:28:34  <TrueBrain> they already did
12:28:42  <LordAro> lol
12:32:23  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Different mouse question: is that mouse stuck at top still happening with the PR?
12:32:38  <michi_cc> Also, I think I found the (totally silly) scrolling bug.
12:32:39  <andythenorth> not that I could repro no
12:32:54  <andythenorth> I tested it in full screen, no stuck that I could see
12:33:05  <andythenorth> I might have missed it, but it was trivial to trigger previously
12:33:32  <michi_cc> Now I'm wondering if I should make use of the shiny new OTTD relative mouse mode instead of cursor warping.
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12:49:49  <frosch123> iirc the relative thingie could only be decided on start-up, and not switch depending on RMB
12:50:24  <frosch123> so it confined the mouse into the window all the time, even in windowed mode
12:50:49  <frosch123> but maybe that was only for emscripten
12:50:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
12:51:03  <michi_cc> andythenorth: That push should fix scrolling.
12:52:01  <michi_cc> frosch123: TB added a relative cursor update function for emscripten, but it could also be used to avoid cursor wapring on OSX.
12:52:43  <michi_cc> It's not SDL relative mode or something if you're thinking of that.
13:03:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
13:03:32  <michi_cc> Eh, less "magic call" is better, let's just use relative mode. It's in its own commit, so easily backed out.
13:04:12  <michi_cc> orudge: Any chance you could have a look at #8652. You also wanted to check out #8518 :D
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13:58:38  <andythenorth> michi_cc mouse scroll speed now perfect I think.  I did have case where viewport remained locked to mouse movement after I released button, can't repro yet
14:00:15  <andythenorth> ok some combo of the exact order of releasing 'cmd' key and mouse button causes it to stay locked
14:03:03  <andythenorth> oh that's just how vanilla works too
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14:03:10  * andythenorth never noticed before
14:03:15  <andythenorth> michi_cc looks good so far then :D
14:04:43  <LordAro> \o/
14:04:56  <andythenorth> get it into a nightly, let People Who Aren't Me test it
14:05:14  <andythenorth> test it in WASM!
14:05:32  <LordAro> pretty sure it's not used there :p
14:05:45  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Maybe I can fix that bug as well :)
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14:56:34  <michi_cc> andythenorth: What would you consider better: Dragging stops when you release Cmd, or dragging continues until you release the mouse button?
14:57:08  <andythenorth> oof 'keys as pretend mouse buttons'
14:57:37  <andythenorth> master behaviour is fine, dragging stops on releasing mouse
14:59:40  <andythenorth> hmm UI yak-shaving suggestion for autoreplace GUI: either 'stop all replacements in this group' button or ctrl-click on replacements to end them
14:59:53  * andythenorth bored of clearing out the greyed-out vehicle spam
15:04:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
15:04:47  <michi_cc> Cursor should not get stuck anymore now.
15:09:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8651: Fix 0125892: Don't crash when towns upgrade road tiles during expansion
15:10:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
15:10:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8629: Fix: [CMake] Restore 'games' as default install bindir
15:11:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8622: Fix 81d335b081: Use non-pulsating red highlight for coverage
15:12:00  <TrueBrain> someone is having fun :D
15:13:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8643: Change: [CMake] Bump minimal version to 3.9
15:14:17  <LordAro> well no one else was doing it
15:14:43  <TrueBrain> you want to say something there? :P
15:15:02  <TrueBrain> I am not slacking! I am playing modded Factorio!
15:15:29  <LordAro> i'm playing KSP :p
15:15:38  <TrueBrain> not sure which is worse :D
15:15:43  <TrueBrain> (in terms of losing time)
15:15:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8650: Assertion failed at line 111 of D:\a\OpenTTD\OpenTTD\src\core/pool_type.hpp: index < this->first_unused
15:15:50  <_dp_> researching competitors? ;)
15:15:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8651: Fix 0125892: Don't crash when towns upgrade road tiles during expansion
15:18:27  <glx> hmm I may update #8639, I think the remark (on IRC) about passing '..' as parameter was correct, it's silly to not include it in the string
15:19:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8599: On Debian-based distributions, the executable should go to /usr/games, not /usr/bin
15:19:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8629: Fix: [CMake] Restore 'games' as default install bindir
15:20:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8622: Fix 81d335b081: Use non-pulsating red highlight for coverage
15:21:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8643: Change: [CMake] Bump minimal version to 3.9
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15:40:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
15:40:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
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15:40:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7744: Draft Feature: OpenGL video driver
15:41:13  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: If you have some SDL stuff, I can tack them onto the PR :)
15:50:04  <TrueBrain> I haven't gotten to that yet .. hopefully this week :)
15:50:10  <TrueBrain> Factorio is way too addicting :P
15:56:05  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is way too addicting :P
15:56:36  <TrueBrain> wouldn't know, haven't played it in years :)
15:56:55  <glx> zachtronics games are addicting :)
16:03:41  <Wolf01> I'm watching a video about Daggerfall unity, it looks really a fine remaster, I might play it when I'll be able to sit at the pc for more than 10 minutes
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16:16:54  <Wolf01> andythenorth: still after colours? javascript: void(0);
16:17:02  <Wolf01>
16:17:23  <Wolf01> Fuck double "copy link" menu item :P
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16:18:51  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth its cheaper than shoes or records
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16:43:07  <snail_UES_> looks like JGR added “realistic train braking” to his patch, this sounds very interesting. Is there any documentation about how it works?
16:44:13  <andythenorth> more likely to get an answer in discord ;)
16:49:27  <snail_UES_> what’s that? another chat app?
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16:58:16  <supermop_Home_> snail_UES_ i think there is a forum thread
16:58:35  <supermop_Home_> i tried the realistic braking patch a few years ago, it is interesting
16:58:54  <supermop_Home_> i don’t know if it is necessarily ‘fun’ but
16:59:16  <supermop_Home_> you certainly end up with less capacity once allowing for braking distances
17:01:06  <snail_UES_> I found it very interesting, coz I implemented braking wagons, and braking force, in my set
17:01:30  <snail_UES_> I’d love to be able to change the distance needed for a train to stop, depending on the entire consist’s braking force
17:01:56  <snail_UES_> also, a train should slow down a lot when negotiating steep downhill tracks
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17:02:33  <snail_UES_> I’m looking for a forum thread (using the search function) but I can’t seem to find anything
17:03:14  <nielsm> for realistic braking you also need look-ahead or multi-aspect signals
17:03:51  <nielsm> (the thing that's called presignals in the real world, completely unrelated to the "presignals" invented in ttdpatch)
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17:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> greetings from being buried under 20cm snow
17:13:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> Factorio is way too addicting :P <-- have you tried switching to dyson sphere program instead? :p
17:13:32  <andythenorth> oof stations
17:16:05  <andythenorth> I want to change the ground tile for a CHIPS tile
17:16:12  <andythenorth> [perplexed emoji]
17:16:24  <andythenorth> "it's all GRM"
17:17:15  <snail_UES_> on another note, it feels annoying that you guys now enforced C++17 to compile OTTD
17:17:35  <snail_UES_> not everyone has the “latest and greatest” system, and there are many more complex programs that allow the use of an older OS
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17:19:27  <snail_UES_> what are the advantages of that?
17:20:18  <_dp_> c++17 is much less annoying to develop in :p
17:20:32  <frosch123> if you are refering to the win9x thing. it's not the change to c++17 that broke that, but the change to c++11
17:20:34  <LordAro> what system are you running that doesn't have a C++17-capable compiler?
17:21:06  <andythenorth> C++17 is what, 3 years old?
17:21:16  <frosch123> i think it is completely acceptable to drop an os, that did not have any compiler update for it for 10 years
17:21:18  <nielsm> if you can't run an OS made within the last 10 years I don't know what to say
17:21:29  <nielsm> any hardware from the last 15 years can run an OS released in the last 10 years
17:21:41  <andythenorth> oof newgrf stations are completely mad
17:22:06  <frosch123> the os does not even have to made in the past 10 years, it's sufficient for it to be made in the past 20 years
17:22:11  <snail_UES_> LordAro: OSX 10.12
17:22:17  <frosch123> so, it can be literally older than openttd
17:22:42  <snail_UES_> frosch123: my OS is not 10 years old
17:23:20  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i think I've mentioned this before
17:23:20  <snail_UES_> it was developed in 2016 and you can’t tell me it’s obsolete now
17:23:25  <glx> we dropped 10.12 ?
17:23:38  <andythenorth> meh accessing a GRM sprite works in one place but not another
17:23:44  <andythenorth> 10.12 is very dead glx
17:23:53  <andythenorth> n-1 I think we do
17:23:55  <LordAro> we've not dropped support for it
17:23:56  <glx> MacOS 11 is comming so yeah 10.12 is outdated
17:23:58  <nielsm> apple is quick to obsolete things
17:23:59  <LordAro> still 10.9+
17:24:03  <supermop_Home_> but  96kmh tank wagons are 36KL for small and 71 for Large
17:24:14  <snail_UES_> LordAro: but 10.12 doesn’t support C++17...
17:24:19  <snail_UES_> so in fact it was dropped
17:24:22  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ rounding errors
17:24:25  <supermop_Home_> not sure if that is intended to incentivize the small wagons
17:24:30  <andythenorth> set them to imperial tonnes
17:24:42  <LordAro> snail_UES_: i feel like you should be able to find a newer compiler for it
17:24:54  <glx> snail_UES_: only dev is impossible on 10.12, but binaries built with recent version should run on 10.12
17:24:55  <andythenorth> there are no incentives on capacity at all, they're supposed to be identical, but integer maths supermop_Home_
17:25:00  <frosch123> snail_UES_: out binaries are listed to run on osx 10.9
17:25:24  <frosch123> i think, any drop in osx version is not related to c++17, but i have no idea about osx compilers
17:25:32  <glx> the issue is probably xcode
17:25:51  <snail_UES_> a binary was created for OSX for JGR’s patch, but it crashes on my system (I posted the crash report on his thread)
17:26:12  <glx> ah not related to c++17
17:26:14  <nielsm> you aren't going to fix that by compiling on your own
17:26:22  <glx> probably SSE
17:26:32  <glx> or some CPU flags
17:26:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: michi_cc: the website lists 1.10.3 as osx 10.12+, and nightly as 10.9+. do you know whether either is true?
17:27:15  <FLHerne> snail_UES_: That might be
17:27:41  <snail_UES_> that also happened on the previous version of JGR
17:27:50  <snail_UES_> the same person compiled the binary, it crashed on my system
17:28:03  <snail_UES_> then I compiled it on my own (it wasn’t requiring C++17 yet) and it worked fine
17:28:38  <FLHerne> Definitely sounds like ^ then
17:28:44  <FLHerne> In which case michi_cc fixed it recently
17:29:13  <FLHerne> (in master, no idea if JGR pulled it yet)
17:30:04  <michi_cc> OTTD requires a recent enough compiler for C++17. Apple has chosen to tightly couple compiler, XCode and OS versions, which is why you can't build on semi-old OSX versions.
17:31:25  <snail_UES_> I would need a newer version of XCode, but it’s not supported by 10.12
17:31:46  <snail_UES_> is there any alternative way I can go, without upgrading my system?
17:32:13  <FLHerne> Does "install Linux on it" count as an upgrade? :p
17:32:15  <snail_UES_> I use my computer for remote work, so I need it to be fully functional. I can’t upgrade to a new OS only to find half of my apps stop working (as it’s always the case)
17:32:16  <nielsm> it's not exactly news that apple likes to drop support for older OS versions and make it as difficult as possible for developers to keep supporting their older OS and hardware versions as they can
17:32:27  <FLHerne> (probably not in battery life, by my experience)
17:32:48  <nielsm> I would call apple a bad choice for computer if you aren't in a situation where you can keep buying a new one every few years
17:33:16  <snail_UES_> I wouldn’t mind buying a new one, if I could keep my current apps working
17:33:34  <snail_UES_> if I switched to Big Sur, I’d have to say goodbye to most of my apps...
17:34:07  <michi_cc> frosch123: It should run on 10.9+, but I don't think anybody is testing that. 10.12 is our self-given n-3 policy, but not technically enforced.
17:34:48  <frosch123> michi_cc: ok, steam also says 10.9, wait until someone compains?
17:34:55  <nielsm> I think the issue might be with the SDK version used causing slightly different behaviours for some things?
17:35:17  <andythenorth> the days of keeping macs going forever are long gone
17:35:28  <andythenorth> macs are disposable devices now, 1 year lifespan
17:36:36  <michi_cc> snail_UES_: The "most apps won't work" think is exactly why 10.12 is obsolete for _compiling_ OTTD. And as long as Apple couples compiler/XCode versions tightly to OSX releases, that won't change.
17:40:13  <glx> seems JGR includes the no-sse4 commit
17:41:13  <glx> since 0.40.0
17:42:42  <glx> snail_UES_: do vanilla nightlies work ?
17:43:14  <snail_UES_> let me try
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17:44:47  <snail_UES_> yes, that works
17:45:14  <snail_UES_> the one I just downloaded is OpenTTD 20210206-master-g2c9084d48c
17:45:42  <glx> so in theory recent enough JGR should work too
17:46:03  <michi_cc> The crash you posted in the forums in inside libfreetype, which is a 3rd party library not supplied by Apple or us. I'd assume whoever made that binary didn't compile the lib in the proper way.
17:46:30  <snail_UES_> :(
17:46:39  <glx> hmm freetype is no longer required for MacOS IIRC
17:46:40  <michi_cc> Most likely not with the proper version back-compatibility flags set.
17:46:41  <snail_UES_> would you mind answering my post then?
17:46:49  <michi_cc> glx: Only if you approve the PR :)
17:46:54  <glx> oh right
17:47:26  <glx> I can't test it myself so
17:47:33  * andythenorth can't decide if I love or hate the station spec
17:47:37  <andythenorth> it's really appalling
17:47:46  <andythenorth> but I can see how people get used to it
17:47:48  <michi_cc> Still, same thing then with lzo or lzma.
17:49:43  <michi_cc> frosch123: Steam itself is 10.11+, so the 10.9 question is basically pointless.
17:50:19  <glx> oh yes for macOS we set MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET: 10.9 in CI
17:50:30  <glx> so vcpkg does the right thing
17:50:47  <glx> I guess
17:52:40  <michi_cc> The compiler does the right thing, but yeah.
17:53:30  * andythenorth looks for TrueBrain in these pictures
17:53:45  <andythenorth> I like the snowplough going down a ski sloper
17:53:54  <andythenorth>
17:54:20  * andythenorth needs educating about camera angel
17:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a camera devil?
17:57:31  <andythenorth> oof
17:57:36  <andythenorth> so how do I station?
17:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't left my house, but there really was a lot of snow over the last 24 hours
17:57:52  <andythenorth> I'm not saying this is gibberish
17:58:08  <andythenorth> but I don't even know if I need prop 09 or 1A
17:58:10  <andythenorth> CHIPS uses both
17:58:17  <glx> you can't do it in nml for sure
17:58:21  <andythenorth> thanks :)
17:59:20  <andythenorth> I have
17:59:27  <andythenorth> which gives a ground sprite and a building
17:59:31  <andythenorth> I need a second building sprite
18:00:04  <andythenorth> I'm not even sure if I have a building, or 2 ground sprites
18:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so, prop 1A has been around for 10 years and nobody bothered to write it properly into the specs?
18:00:09  <andythenorth> this is all copy-paste magic
18:00:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause it's documented
18:00:30  <andythenorth>
18:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
18:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not "in the specs"
18:00:55  <andythenorth> oops
18:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it refers to another site
18:00:59  <andythenorth> well...
18:01:17  <andythenorth> that doc actually makes more sense than the specs
18:01:18  <Eddi|zuHause> which may or may not be considered "canonical"
18:01:44  <andythenorth> that doc starts to look like something more famiilar
18:02:57  <andythenorth> familiarity with industry tiles seems to be of negative value when dealing with stations
18:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not in the right mindset to try to understand this
18:04:00  <andythenorth> 1A looks familiar
18:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but sounds like 1A would be preferable to 09
18:04:15  <andythenorth> it's just list of sprites, and can take values or a register number
18:04:24  <andythenorth> then in the action 2, presumably the registers are stuffed
18:04:36  <andythenorth> 09 I can't even parse the instructions
18:05:06  * andythenorth considers converting CHIPS to python
18:06:09  <andythenorth> this is not fun
18:07:38  <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's not exactly NFO, but has pictures.
18:07:49  <andythenorth> because converting the entire templating / compile to python is much easier than reading the docs for adding 2 sprites :P
18:07:58  <andythenorth> michi_cc :)
18:07:58  <andythenorth> thanks
18:08:05  <supermop_Home_> wasn’t someone working on nml stations recently? i thought i saw a PR for that
18:08:10  <andythenorth> I feel stations have never ben adopted by OpenTTD
18:08:24  <andythenorth> they seem to be firmly TTD Patch thing
18:08:31  <andythenorth> the main toolchain is m4nfo also
18:08:36  <supermop_Home_> Eddi|zuHause lots of snow here too
18:08:40  <glx> I used stations in openttd
18:09:22  <andythenorth> I mean the adoption of the spec :)
18:09:36  <andythenorth> afaict, it's the preserve of pretty much one person in Germany
18:10:23  <andythenorth> maybe it's Eddi|zuHause !
18:10:46  <glx> 1A is openttd only BTW
18:11:30  <supermop_Home_> still banished by GitHub...
18:11:41  <glx> it's weekend
18:12:10  <andythenorth> so I wonder if yexo used 09 to test out the full range of spec (idea was to do nml stations), or if there correct cases for 1A
18:12:25  <andythenorth> for industry tiles, there are no real cases for not using advanced
18:13:28  <frosch123> you can write every 09 as 1A
18:13:31  <frosch123> it's a superset
18:14:34  <andythenorth> thanks
18:14:48  * andythenorth reads the TTDP docs
18:15:01  <andythenorth> the bounding boxes are significant here?
18:17:05  <frosch123> there are two layouts: a single box for non-track tiles, and 2 boxes behind/in front of train
18:17:44  <frosch123> nml should remove spritelayouts and only offer those choices that make sense :p
18:18:04  <andythenorth> :P
18:18:15  * andythenorth seriously considers m4nfo again
18:19:03  <frosch123> aren't you too young for that?
18:19:03  <andythenorth> definitely worth rebuilding the whole project just to add a crane over 1 track tile
18:21:30  <supermop_Home_> ugh i guess i should fix covered hopper truck sprites
18:21:43  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: what’s wrong with m4nfo?
18:21:59  <supermop_Home_> as the only feedback i get on my RVs is that the sprites are broken
18:22:24  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I have no idea, I haven't used it yet
18:22:31  <andythenorth> it will probably be uniquely flawed
18:22:33  <andythenorth> most things are
18:23:36  <snail_UES_> nothing is perfect, but I find m4nfo’s “less is more” approach to be quite brilliant
18:25:10  <andythenorth> well good or bad, it's the only available choice for stations
18:25:34  <snail_UES_> not a bad choice for trains either :)
18:27:06  <andythenorth> so stations in nml then?
18:27:16  <andythenorth> or is it actually architecturally hard?
18:31:27  <glx> main issue is station layout is in action 0, while all other are action 2
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18:32:56  <glx> so even if syntax is the same it's not easy to plug
18:33:24  <frosch123> i consider the tile layout harder
18:34:05  <frosch123> a station only has 4 tile layouts, but 8 possile property values for them to set
18:34:12  <andythenorth> I consider the docs hard enough to be a disincentive :P
18:34:38  <frosch123> the easier option may be to increase tiles to 16 in ottd, and basically eliminate tile layouts from the station spec
18:35:10  <frosch123> s/16/8/  difficult counting :p
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18:41:56  <andythenorth> so what's the 41 doing
18:42:03  <andythenorth> is that a flag or a count?
18:43:33  * andythenorth could try and count the number of bytes
18:43:45  <frosch123> 40 is the flag, 1 is the count
18:43:57  <andythenorth> what are the 8 tiles?
18:44:03  * andythenorth really finds stations odd
18:44:10  <andythenorth> "The property is variable sized, and contains the data for all 8 possible station tile types.  If this property is set, the num-ent in the corresponding action 1 need not be equal to 12 (hex), it can in fact be any number, and any number of sprites can be displayed in any order."
18:44:26  <andythenorth> so it can just be any number?
18:44:28  <andythenorth> 7?
18:44:32  <andythenorth> 96?
18:44:36  <andythenorth> :)
18:44:39  <frosch123> "tiles" is what you need to define "track/non-track tile", "draw pylons" and "draw catenary"
18:45:09  <frosch123> they are so weird that nml should/would remove them / abstract them away
18:45:33  <andythenorth> I can't begin to understand yet :)
18:45:41  <andythenorth> but....there are so many station sets :o
18:47:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: sorry for distracting, but property 1A has nothing to do with tile types
18:47:46  <frosch123> "tile layouts" and "sprite layouts" are very different things
18:47:56  <andythenorth> o_O
18:47:59  <andythenorth> newsletter?
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18:49:24  <frosch123> what "news"?
18:50:19  <andythenorth> I don't know :)
18:50:36  <andythenorth> "Road routing (19 - reserved for future use)"
18:50:38  <andythenorth> :o
18:50:47  <andythenorth> that sounds like news :)
18:50:52  <andythenorth> "Will allow to have routing informations for road vehicles on rail stations,"
18:51:06  <frosch123> 12 year old vapour ware is not news
18:51:23  <michi_cc> Sounds more like wishful thinking :)
18:51:25  <frosch123> though, is it vapour ware, if there are not even screenshots?
18:52:30  <frosch123> i don't think there was a description of what was actually planned
18:52:39  <andythenorth> "This property is not yet implemented"
18:53:54  <frosch123> george requested to have rv routing for houses, so vehicles could drive through "gas station" houses and other things
18:54:13  <frosch123> but i think that's unrelated to this station thing
19:09:06  <andythenorth> hmm
19:09:15  <andythenorth> I was reading the prop 09 docs for 1A and vice versa
19:09:21  <andythenorth> this did not aid my understanding :P
19:10:59  <frosch123> it's the same as for industries, just the role of sprites in a spriteset and spritesets is transposed
19:11:21  <frosch123> in industry layouts you reference spritesets, and each spriteset contains sprites per construction stage
19:11:46  <frosch123> for stations you reference sprites inside a spriteset, and you pick different spritesets per amount of cargo waiting
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19:17:11  <andythenorth> grfcodec fails on this
19:17:18  <andythenorth> Error on sprite 6465.
19:17:42  <andythenorth> the offsets to the sprites are wrong, but I don't see why that doesn't compile anyway
19:17:52  <andythenorth> based on
19:19:27  <andythenorth> I don't know if the comments are reliable, I'm just copying them
19:23:06  <andythenorth> the flags are all clear I think
19:31:53  <andythenorth> \dx8000842D is the offset to the sprite, with extra flags?
19:33:39  <frosch123> your gist looks fine to me
19:34:22  <andythenorth> grfcodec disagrees
19:34:52  <frosch123> i assume you mean nforenum?
19:35:29  <andythenorth> not actually sure, make masks who's emitting the error
19:35:33  <andythenorth> let's see
19:36:29  <andythenorth> yeah it's frigging nforenum
19:37:04  <andythenorth> NFORenum trunk r994M - Copyright (C) 2004-2013 by Dale McCoy
19:37:56  <frosch123> i think the advancted layouts were the last thing that were added to nforenum
19:38:10  <frosch123> after that even yexo did not bother about nforenum anymore
19:38:28  <andythenorth> I skipped renum and tried grfcodec
19:38:39  <andythenorth> sprite 6465 is broken though
19:38:47  <andythenorth> 'Unexpected sprite, disabling'
19:38:53  <andythenorth> says OpenTTD
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19:39:29  <frosch123> that means you miscounted in action 1, 5 or A
19:39:36  <andythenorth> ok
19:39:54  <frosch123> there was a realsprite where a pseudosprite was expected
19:39:55  <andythenorth> thanks
19:40:00  <andythenorth> I think I see it
19:42:33  * andythenorth forgot to maintain realsprite counts in action 1
19:42:42  <andythenorth> all nfo is forgotten :)
19:47:28  <andythenorth> it's working :)
19:47:39  * andythenorth so tempted to re-template it with python 
19:49:19  <frosch123> time for pynfo :p
19:51:12  <andythenorth> I have been wondering about a python-based higher level language :P
19:51:43  <andythenorth> probably a mad idea
19:52:00  <frosch123> i am not sure whether pynfo or pynml makes a big difference
19:52:12  <frosch123> if you template everything anyway
19:52:16  <andythenorth> lot less housekeeping to template with nml :)
20:03:38  *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd
20:08:13  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: remind me I have to make a bug ticket about the Win32 now taking a bit too long with its Sleep()s :)
20:08:18  <TrueBrain> I keep forgetting to detail what is going on :P
20:08:26  <TrueBrain> (and I have no clue how to solve it myself)
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20:23:41  <glx> oh I remember reading something about win32 and sleep
20:24:30  <TrueBrain> yeah, michi_cc had a nice link
20:24:47  <TrueBrain> sleep of 1ms took .. 60+ms I believe :)
20:25:09  <glx> yeah default granularity changed
20:27:53  <andythenorth> stations :)
20:27:57  * andythenorth has bounding box issues
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20:28:02  <andythenorth> ground is being drawn over trains
20:29:59  <andythenorth> fixed that, now the sprites flicker instead :)
20:30:06  <frosch123> ground are ground, they have no bounding boxes
20:33:02  <andythenorth> spec suggest I can stack groundsprites
20:33:07  <andythenorth> which is what I want to do
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20:33:52  <andythenorth> literal 80
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20:34:36  <andythenorth> this spec is so hard to read :)
20:35:06  <andythenorth>
20:35:07  <LordAro> isn't the station spec what broke Yexo last time round?
20:35:17  <andythenorth> I need to lose all those bounding boxes
20:35:39  <andythenorth> e.g. line 11 and friends
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20:37:48  <andythenorth> maybe advanced layouts can't do that
20:38:03  * andythenorth hasn't written one for years, it's all abstracted in FIRS :P
20:38:33  <andythenorth> z extent is 0 for groundsprites?
20:39:54  <andythenorth> "Skip bounding box including child sprites" looks plausible?
20:40:04  <frosch123> replace the "00 00 00 10 10 \b0" with "00 00 80"
20:40:40  <frosch123> (i think)
20:41:20  <frosch123> nah, the "skip" thing is for conditional sprites. you probably don't want that here
20:44:26  <andythenorth> appears to work
20:45:28  * andythenorth wonders how yexo put the bufferstops in
20:45:37  <andythenorth> maybe with a register
20:46:12  <andythenorth> hmm no, it's tile switching
20:46:37  <andythenorth> 40 different layous for combinations of buffer / no buffer, and cargo sprites
20:46:44  <andythenorth> layouts *
20:47:38  <andythenorth> 2021, the year andythenorth learns stations? :P
20:47:53  <andythenorth> now I want to animate some harbour cranes moving
20:48:52  <andythenorth>
21:07:07  <andythenorth> hmm do I relearn C pre-processor?
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21:34:40  <Eddi|zuHause> for what purpose?
21:37:28  *** arikover has quit IRC
21:47:28  <frosch123> i like that guy on reddit, who doesn't know what "windows 9x" is
21:48:24  <glx> cute
21:50:13  <LordAro> haha
21:50:37  <frosch123> LordAro: now even you can feel old :p
21:50:58  <LordAro> :p
21:51:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause for the purpose of extending CHIPS grf
21:52:23  <andythenorth> I need to write something like this, but different
21:52:49  <andythenorth> I'm not sure that I should be doing this voluntarily though, it seems like a poor life choice
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22:14:24  <andythenorth> bed
22:14:25  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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22:55:29  <jgx> TrueBrain - thank you. Purged allegro5, installed allegro4, compiled 20210207-master-gaf0acc9a75 successfully.
22:55:42  <jgx> The train is fine.
22:56:32  <jgx> Distro: Linux Mint 19.2 (ID_LIKE=ubuntu)
23:05:01  <TrueBrain> In the meantime I fixed it too in master .. it will no longer try allegro5 ;)
23:05:12  <TrueBrain> Tnx for checking back in !
23:05:31  <_dp_> is there any point in keeping allegro at all?
23:05:45  <_dp_> last time I tried it was pretty broken
23:05:55  <TrueBrain> Last time the argument was: it still works
23:06:13  <TrueBrain> So shrug .. I was not allowed to remove it :p
23:07:03  <TrueBrain> But someone also promised to pick it up again .. he never did .. so there is that :p
23:09:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt opened pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
23:14:38  <milek7> _dp_: it seems to work fine?
23:15:38  <_dp_> there were some issues with it, I don't remember now
23:16:00  <_dp_> but I couldn't rly play with it
23:16:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
23:23:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
23:24:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
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