Log for #openttd on 18th February 2021:
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00:06:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
00:13:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default
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02:02:21  <Trank> hi dudes
02:02:42  <Trank> i found some bugs in  last version
02:03:48  <Trank> were to where to describe it to developers for fix?
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04:24:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] reldred commented on pull request #8480: Multitile depots
04:29:41  <reldred> That’s eerie getting pinged on irc after commenting on GitHub 😅
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05:08:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8631: Graph window - Allow the choice of a graph background
05:57:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
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08:26:32  <andythenorth> yo
08:29:08  <Wolf01> o/
08:31:03  <andythenorth> 'vehicle failed to renew' messages seem to kill my FPS
08:31:13  <andythenorth> they aren't shown, but they are being added to news log
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08:57:05  <andythenorth> could we support negative running costs for vehicles?
08:57:31  <andythenorth> currently negative value just overflows / wraps
09:14:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
09:16:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8630: Graph window - Colors of the auxiliary grid have not been adjusted to the dark background, which reduces the readability
09:16:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
09:20:44  <_dp_> now we're getting somewhere xD
09:20:56  <_dp_> I was tempted to make a "Revert dark BG" PR with the motivation "closes more issues (#8630 #8633 #8632) than in solves (#8539)" :p
09:21:11  <TrueBrain> I would have closed that PR with: now I got to close a PR!
09:21:12  <TrueBrain> :)
09:21:24  <TrueBrain> at this point, I am not budging to bullying
09:23:23  <TrueBrain> it cannot be that if you MAKE A LOT OF NOISE AND COMPLAIN EVERYWHERE you get to do what-ever you want ;)
09:23:47  <TrueBrain> that said, 1.11 would have never released with the UI as it was, I just didn't find the motivation to address it yet .. happy 2TallTyler is :)
09:24:04  <TrueBrain> it is funny, how low motivation comes when someone is doing stuff like this :P
09:25:20  <andythenorth> it's really really unhelpful
09:25:55  <TrueBrain> the old saying: you catch more flies with honey, holds true especially in Open Source :)
09:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> me and low motivation are long time friends
09:27:02  <andythenorth> every now and then I watch this
09:27:05  <TrueBrain> at a certain point they call it depression ;) As a FYI :)
09:27:26  <andythenorth> appreciating that Steve Jobs is a divisive figure, it's still worth watching :P
09:32:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8631: Profit window - Not all cargo colours are visible
09:32:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8631: Profit window - Not all cargo colours are visible
09:32:23  <TrueBrain> I was hoping someone else would close that issue :P
09:32:36  <TrueBrain> but he doesn't like me already anyway, so one more wouldn't hurt :D
09:33:39  <TrueBrain> I did have to change the title, as that was a bit weird
09:34:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
09:34:34  <_dp_> there already are different themes for map :p
09:34:55  <TrueBrain> there is? ugh .. that would be horrible
09:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suggest a "high visibility" mode, where the graph lines get a thicker outline in a bright colour
09:35:27  <andythenorth> I'd suggest leaving it all alone :)
09:35:36  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a better approach at least :)
09:35:40  <andythenorth> that chart is lolz anyway
09:35:48  <TrueBrain> there are more places that can benefit from ... people who otherwise find things hard to read :D
09:35:56  <_dp_> cmclient does outlines but I'd wait for vanilla to release before experimenting with that
09:36:03  <andythenorth> I have completely distorted FIRS gameplay just to make that chart somewhat legible
09:36:05  <TrueBrain> _dp_: how does that work for map?
09:36:31  <andythenorth> FIRS cargo rates are set algorithmically (with manual tuning) to space out the lines on that chart
09:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it'll certainly cover more cases than twiddling around with individual colours all day
09:36:46  <andythenorth> which is a weird-ass way to design gameplay, but we are where we are
09:37:03  <andythenorth> FIRS cargo chains are also designed so they look good in the graphviz flow layouts
09:37:06  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: what I like about it, it goes behind "themes", and just allows a bit of freedom for: how to make the UI better readable :D
09:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> input from an actual colourblind person might help
09:37:19  <andythenorth> css for the UI
09:37:25  <_dp_> TrueBrain, wdym? there is "land colour used at the smallmap" setting
09:37:25  <andythenorth> html frontend
09:37:36  <TrueBrain> _dp_: ah, that
09:37:45  <TrueBrain> why?
09:37:50  <TrueBrain> (why was it added?)
09:38:04  <andythenorth> because I can't see certain colours on the green, despite having 98% vision acuity
09:38:12  <andythenorth> so I asked for purple, and got purple
09:38:16  <TrueBrain> so they added it for you? Awwwhhh :)
09:38:30  <andythenorth> we used to make progress in the UI and newgrf :)
09:38:32  <andythenorth> in the olden days
09:38:37  <andythenorth> when I was young
09:38:43  <_dp_> dunno why but it's quite annoying when changing the map
09:38:49  <TrueBrain> personally, I am not a fan of all this personal tweaking :P
09:39:08  <andythenorth> we should just make one game, played the way one person decides
09:39:11  <andythenorth> and remove newgrf
09:39:22  <TrueBrain> well, that is a bit drastic
09:39:38  <andythenorth> I forgot the emoji
09:39:44  <TrueBrain> the /s you mean :P
09:40:01  <andythenorth> that's a thing? :)
09:40:08  <TrueBrain> a reddit thing, but yes
09:40:23  <TrueBrain> what a game needs, any game, is people making decisions
09:40:38  <TrueBrain> we are not making a game for everybody
09:40:46  <TrueBrain> we are making a game for the 90%
09:40:49  <TrueBrain> not the 0.001% :)
09:40:57  <TrueBrain> that lesson we learnt in 2006 or so
09:41:02  <TrueBrain> when the amount of settings was such a large list :P
09:41:31  <TrueBrain> take the map colours .. would have been better if that was a NewGRF that could do it
09:41:36  <andythenorth> Freedom!
09:41:38  <TrueBrain> so andythenorth could load "purple" map NewGRF
09:41:48  <TrueBrain> and if 50% of the people download it and use it
09:41:57  <TrueBrain> well, 70%
09:42:02  <TrueBrain> it might be time to switch the default ;)
09:42:26  <andythenorth> moddable UI would be a thing, some of it is already adjustable via newgrf
09:42:38  <andythenorth> icons, colours
09:42:51  <andythenorth> but by accident, not design
09:43:01  <_dp_> TrueBrain, god no
09:43:11  <_dp_> everything newgrf is such a huge nuisance when changing the ui
09:43:31  <TrueBrain> I said it would be "better", not that it is a good idea :D
09:43:38  <andythenorth> these are the downsides of modding frameworks
09:43:50  <andythenorth> API has a cost etc etc
09:43:59  <TrueBrain> another solution would be to have settings-presets, and make it a non-UI setting
09:44:26  <andythenorth> the general case is one thing
09:44:36  <andythenorth> the specific case of the cargo chart is caused by people like me
09:44:43  <_dp_> why not just change industry colors so that they're visible on the green map? :P
09:44:57  <TrueBrain> Path of Exile is a nice example .. their loot filter, by default, is okay-ish
09:45:02  <TrueBrain> it is the opinion of the creators of the game
09:45:04  <TrueBrain> I never ever play with it
09:45:14  <TrueBrain> they allow you to load a file that changes everything about loot
09:45:17  <TrueBrain> colours, background, sound, etc
09:45:21  <TrueBrain> doing that yourself is .. euuuhhhhhhhh
09:45:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ can't remember, long time ago :)
09:45:27  <TrueBrain> but a very few people do that for you
09:45:31  <TrueBrain> so many people load their preset
09:45:36  * andythenorth crashed the game with settings window
09:45:41  <andythenorth> if only I had pulled :P
09:45:45  <andythenorth> or saved my game
09:45:55  <TrueBrain> I like that way of solving that .. it allows people to have an opinion on the matter
09:45:58  <TrueBrain> still deliver a good base game
09:46:05  <TrueBrain> that is not full of nobs to turns for the random player
09:46:26  <andythenorth> winamp skins :P
09:46:34  <_dp_> just fork it! :p
09:46:38  <TrueBrain> but my OpenTTD would look rather different :)
09:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> and if 50% of the people download it and use it <-- as with any non-default option, that'll probably never go above 1% :p
09:46:58  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, the survey the other day surprised us
09:47:06  <TrueBrain> caused us to change defaults
09:47:22  <TrueBrain> if something is popular enough, it will get in the top N
09:47:25  <andythenorth> hmm, I have updated master, but is TB 60fps patch rebaseable to that? :P
09:47:27  * andythenorth git clown
09:47:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well... "survey" is a different thing to "random sample"
09:47:39  <TrueBrain> I just pushed a rebased version andythenorth
09:47:49  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, it contained a scan of all multiplayer servers
09:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> even that might have a sampling bias
09:48:20  <TrueBrain> everything has a sample bias
09:48:43  <TrueBrain> I was arguing your "1%"
09:48:52  <TrueBrain> we have ways to see what people do in a more generic context :)
09:48:56  <TrueBrain> so it is not all bad
09:49:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8679: Fix: [Cygwin] Fix missing uint definition
09:49:29  <andythenorth> TrueBrain you are my hero :)
09:49:30  <andythenorth> for today
09:49:34  <andythenorth> 30fps is so ugh
09:49:39  <andythenorth> I can NEVER go back
09:49:42  <TrueBrain> yeah, playing on 30fps now is really difficult
09:49:49  <TrueBrain> like .. super dupah difficult :P
09:50:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8681: Fix: Autorenew failure advice due to bad refit being shown to all companies
09:50:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8681: Fix: Autorenew failure advice due to bad refit being shown to all companies
09:51:30  <andythenorth> so how we do investigate if queueing news messages smacks FPS?
09:51:37  * andythenorth thinks it does, but eh, confirmation bias
09:51:45  <TrueBrain> open framerate window
09:52:16  <TrueBrain> if what you say is true, the "Graphics rendering" should increase
09:52:22  <TrueBrain> (and possibly "Video output")
09:53:08  <TrueBrain> owh, you can click those numbers
09:53:09  <TrueBrain> and get a graph
09:53:11  <TrueBrain> did not know that
09:53:12  <TrueBrain> hidden feature
09:53:26  <TrueBrain> that is cool
09:53:30  <TrueBrain> like really cool
09:54:08  <LordAro> you've been doing all this graphical stuff and you didn't know about the graph? :o
09:54:21  <TrueBrain> NOTHING on that window suggests things are clickable
09:54:24  <TrueBrain> so no, I did not know about that
09:54:25  <LordAro> nope!
09:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> this game is full of "hidden features"
09:54:39  <TrueBrain> you cannot click the rates, for example
09:54:43  <andythenorth> seems I made a video previously
09:54:50  <andythenorth> that video is easily misunderstood
09:55:04  <andythenorth> it's easy to watch with pre-conception, and say 'of course animating the news window is slower'
09:55:09  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: now do it again with my PR, and click on the GRaphics rendering, and video output first
09:55:40  <TrueBrain> now I have to make those graphs in a black background too, not?
09:55:48  * andythenorth has no comment
09:56:37  <TrueBrain> I do not like it is based on 2 seconds, the graphs .. that is slightly too low for me to process the information given
09:56:40  <TrueBrain> you can't have it all :D
09:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think i remember discussing news-related slowdown
09:56:47  <andythenorth> you did
09:57:00  <andythenorth> didn't you fix something related to it?
09:57:27  <Timberwo1f> I get this with Timberwolf's Trains (and the other 2x sets). There's clearly a decent number of people using it, but all I know of it is when I get a bug report where the save or screenshot is "full Timberwolf".
09:58:04  <Timberwo1f> If you listened to the 1%, you'd assume "nobody ever plays extra zoom"
09:58:36  <TrueBrain> yeah .. common pitfall to listen to the vocal minority :)
09:59:04  <Timberwo1f> There are definitely people making suggestions who don't actually use it themselves (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but amusing when people suggest "you should add..." something which has been in the set for months)
10:00:06  <andythenorth> I like reddit
10:00:09  <andythenorth> not for reddit
10:00:29  <andythenorth> but it's the same reason I used to go to PC World sometimes to remind myself what actual computer users are like
10:00:35  <andythenorth> not tech bloggers
10:01:20  <TrueBrain> @calc 512 / (1000 / 30)
10:01:20  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 15.36
10:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: was around here somewhere
10:01:40  <andythenorth> reddit is still surprised by how to build stations
10:02:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause thanks
10:02:28  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if the news problem still exists with my PR, let me know, I might have some ideas what causes that .. but first .. need to be sure we are solving a problem :D
10:02:38  <andythenorth> I am running a test now
10:02:49  <andythenorth> it might be that news is co-incidental, not sure
10:02:58  <TrueBrain> a screenshot of the graphs of the framerate window would help, of those 2 I mentioned
10:03:04  <andythenorth> coincidence now causation etc
10:03:27  <andythenorth> yeah I took screenshots of 'the problem is not showing'
10:03:28  <andythenorth> and now I am waiting for it to show
10:04:44  <andythenorth> ok it's manifested
10:04:57  <andythenorth> very little of interest in the graphs
10:05:27  <andythenorth> a run of "Autorenew failed" messages coincides with FFWD rate dropping from 30x to about 20x
10:05:36  <andythenorth> *coincides* :)
10:05:37  <andythenorth> repro-ed twice
10:05:46  <TrueBrain> show screenshot of graphs plz :)
10:06:56  <andythenorth> now going to replace the vehicles to prove it eliminates the issue
10:07:00  <andythenorth> (might not)
10:07:14  <TrueBrain> the news animation is running in the game-tick
10:07:17  <TrueBrain> that is annoying me
10:07:19  <TrueBrain> not as smooth
10:07:40  <TrueBrain> my 60fps patch breaks the graphs of the frame rate window :D
10:07:40  <TrueBrain> haha
10:07:47  <TrueBrain> they keep rescaling :P
10:08:49  <andythenorth> oops, I have no money in my savegame
10:08:53  <andythenorth> -£1bn or so
10:09:10  <andythenorth> I tested negative running costs, but they overflow, so my trains are horribly unprofitable :)
10:09:15  <andythenorth> can't replace with no money :P
10:09:35  * andythenorth fixes
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10:13:17  <TrueBrain> I do not understand the frame rate window enough to see what I have to do to fix my scaling issue ..
10:13:30  <TrueBrain> it takes 60 points and bases the horizontal axis on that, or something
10:13:33  <TrueBrain> but I do not understand why
10:14:09  * andythenorth wonders how much fps impact the performance graphs have
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10:15:29  <TrueBrain> I should ask nielsm when he is here I guess, hopefully he remembers :)
10:17:30  <Timberwo1f> andythenorth: Yeah, watching people play the game is interesting. I had to pause and go for a short lie down after seeing Master Hellish use the m*n station size selection buttons.
10:17:31  <andythenorth> I have am old video showing that window-shading the FPS window makes a measurable difference to FPS
10:17:35  <andythenorth> an *
10:17:36  <Timberwo1f> "everyone" uses drag&drop, right? :p
10:18:29  <andythenorth> hmm so many factors confounding this
10:18:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
10:18:37  *** Timberwo1f is now known as Timberwolf
10:18:40  <TrueBrain> wait, you can still select station sizes old-style?
10:19:00  <andythenorth> I suspect my mac is now thermal throttling as FFWD has dropped to 15x for no obvious reason
10:19:03  <TrueBrain> why did that never get removed, lol
10:19:12  <andythenorth> because someone's workflow might be broken
10:19:21  <andythenorth> and nerds hate social conflict
10:19:28  <andythenorth> or something
10:19:34  <Timberwolf> I can't really talk, I notice from my comments I drive people mad with not using the modern shortcuts and doing things the way Chris intended.
10:19:40  <andythenorth> oh wait, maybe nerds love social conflict, I can't remember
10:19:48  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: haha :D
10:20:17  <andythenorth> yeah, ok so reliable performance measures are way beyond me
10:20:48  <andythenorth> macs have some energy management that will start nice-ing aggressive processes
10:21:02  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: social conflict when we win. The one when we lose is the one we don't like :p
10:21:03  <andythenorth> so leaving OpenTTD on FFWD at 100% of 1 core might trigger that
10:21:12  <andythenorth> Timberwolf 'lol' :)
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10:21:51  <andythenorth> and macs have piss poor thermals, so it might just be nerfing the clock speed because it's now red hot
10:22:20  <andythenorth> I _still_ think something about accruing news messages triggers performance issues, but that's my pet theory right?  No reliable evidence
10:22:39  <TrueBrain> well, I asked you for some basic stuff, and all I get back is a lot of text :P So I cannot really help you from here :)
10:22:58  <JGR> On the news FPS issue, one thing that I've noticed is that the whole status bar is redrawn every tick if there are no more ticker items to show, this can be noticeable if there is nothing else happening
10:23:04  <TrueBrain> JGR: lol, that sounds silly :D
10:24:41  <TrueBrain> hmm, odd, news is done in the draw-tick after all
10:24:46  <TrueBrain> so why is it not 60fps smooth
10:26:35  <andythenorth> TrueBrain
10:26:58  <andythenorth> my conclusion was 'this is junk data' but tell me if you want more :)
10:27:03  <JGR>
10:27:11  <TrueBrain> which ones had news opening andythenorth ?
10:27:18  <TrueBrain> the second?
10:27:18  <Xaroth> Timberwolf: I use m*n station sizing because it makes it easier to see the total catchment area of a station (read: PAX). drag and drop works in situations where I don't have to care about that (read: non-PAX)
10:27:28  <andythenorth> none, the news opening isn't a cause of performance slow down
10:27:35  <andythenorth> it's a cause of performance speed up
10:27:42  <TrueBrain> so now you confuse me completely :D
10:28:02  <andythenorth> like I said, it's counter-intuitive
10:28:02  <TrueBrain> you started this conversation with a movie that opening news is an fps impact? :D
10:28:02  <TrueBrain> so what is the problem exactly :)
10:28:02  <andythenorth> no
10:28:04  <andythenorth> I made the video because nobody believed me
10:28:43  <andythenorth> the problem is that accruing lots of news messages reliably co-incides with reduced FPS
10:28:50  <andythenorth> even if they're never displayed
10:29:05  <andythenorth> but it's not the only cause of low FPS, so it might just be coincidence
10:29:25  <TrueBrain> but it is a way you can reproduce it with
10:29:26  <TrueBrain> so, if I get you right
10:29:31  <TrueBrain> your FF slows down
10:29:31  <TrueBrain> if you get more news?
10:29:36  <andythenorth> yes
10:29:44  <andythenorth> it also slows down with no news
10:29:45  <TrueBrain> okay, if you load a game, do not FF, wait for a lot of news
10:29:45  <andythenorth>
10:29:46  <TrueBrain> than FF
10:29:49  <TrueBrain> does that change anything?
10:29:51  <andythenorth> let's see
10:30:13  <TrueBrain> nice JGR, lets upstream that :D
10:31:15  <andythenorth> being cold about it, I think 'the game has slowed down for some reason after some time has passed on FFWD' coincides with 'the game has generated news because it has been running for a while'
10:31:28  <TrueBrain> that is what I want to rule out, yes
10:31:47  <LordAro> gotta love a while loop that ends with "return"
10:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> those are great
10:32:22  <andythenorth> ha I can't change the news settings :)
10:32:24  <andythenorth> nvm
10:32:29  <andythenorth> one thing at a time
10:32:34  <TrueBrain> funny .. news wants to move at 15ms per step ...
10:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "if you ever manage to correctly finish a complete loop, the loop ends". very reminiscent of groundhog day
10:32:50  <TrueBrain> while master has the resolution at 30ms
10:32:59  <TrueBrain> so its animation is always jerky
10:35:40  <TrueBrain> not much we can do about that in the current way it is set up
10:35:41  <TrueBrain> sad
10:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 144fps support when? :p
10:36:48  <TrueBrain> with my PR, no problem
10:37:01  <TrueBrain> just not the default :)
10:37:14  <TrueBrain> JGR: will you upstream that patch yourself, or you want me to do it? (I am fine with either)
10:37:54  <JGR> I've rebasing it now, won't be a minute
10:37:54  <JGR> I'm*
10:37:54  <TrueBrain> cool
10:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> also, fine-grained vehicle movement on x4 zoom
10:38:05  <LordAro> steady on now
10:38:11  <TrueBrain> right, a FF dropdown of some kind .. how to do that .. hmmmmm
10:38:14  <TrueBrain> so many choices
10:38:50  <_dp_> hey, I use 1x7 stations! :p
10:39:13  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i was expecting something like the railtype selector dropdown
10:39:20  <LordAro> i.e. remembers previous setting
10:39:51  <TrueBrain> yeah .. the button should just be toggle-able like it is now
10:40:00  <TrueBrain> and something to select the speed itself
10:40:11  <TrueBrain> we don't have a dot you can drag along a line, do we?
10:40:32  <TrueBrain> as doing it in a list might just be a bit annoyingly long list
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10:41:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
10:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> x2, x4, x8, infinite?
10:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> how many choices do we need?
10:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> x100? x1000?
10:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> does that really make a difference?
10:42:49  <andythenorth> I can't find any meaningful connection between frequency of news and FFWD speed; putting it down to co-incidence
10:42:49  <_dp_> dropdown for ff doesn't sound like a good idea :P
10:43:25  <andythenorth> stopping or starting vehicles makes a HUGE difference to FFWD, no surprise :D
10:43:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
10:43:42  <TrueBrain> tnx JGR
10:45:37  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Does it slow down if you make your tracks more wiggly? :)
10:46:29  <arikover> Hi! o/
10:46:58  <andythenorth> Timberwolf yes!  How did you guess?
10:46:58  <andythenorth> what is provably hella-slow is opening the 'all trains' window
10:47:50  <NGC3982> uhm, im noticing that my server is turning up twice in the server list
10:47:50  <andythenorth> cuts FFWD from ~30x to ~24x to me at default size on my viewport
10:47:50  <andythenorth> making the window larger cuts it further
10:47:50  <andythenorth> windowshading the window restores FPS
10:47:51  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: I suspect that will be vehicle sprite chain resolution (certainly the case for wiggly tracks)
10:48:07  <andythenorth> I guess drawing pixels is a burden :)
10:48:07  <NGC3982> may that be because the host ( is reachable both with or without ssl?
10:48:39  * andythenorth considers testing a Horse without all the varaction 2 stuff 
10:48:39  <_dp_> NGC3982, I anything I'd guess IPv6
10:48:39  <JGR> The all vehicles windows are redrawn much too often if you have a lot of vehicles
10:48:39  <LordAro> NGC3982: OTTD doesn't use SSL, so no
10:48:59  <Timberwolf> The "all trains" window is one of the highest-density sources of trains to redraw.
10:49:22  <JGR> The whole window is refreshed if a vehicle is updated, even if it's not actually visible with the current filter/scroll position
10:49:49  <JGR> I've got some stuff to get rid of that in my branch
10:49:49  <Timberwolf> Oh wow - yes, that'd do it.
10:49:49  <NGC3982> oh lol i see my LAN game
10:50:06  <NGC3982> _dp_, LordAro: i see. thank you.
10:50:45  <LordAro> NGC3982: sounds like you've got some funky networking going on
10:50:59  <Timberwolf> I was thinking it was just a lot of trains because you wouldn't get that many even carefully lining them up on multiple rows of diagonal track but yeah, if it's drawing everything that could possibly be in the window regardless of whether it's actually in the window...
10:50:59  <LordAro> i wouldn't expect both IPv4 & IPv6 to make a difference to servers displayed
10:51:54  <andythenorth> the larger the window, the more the FFWD speed drop
10:51:54  <andythenorth> so there's something extra going on also
10:51:54  <andythenorth> maybe
10:52:18  <JGR> @Timberwolf, it doesn't actually draw everything in the list, just the visible ones. It's that non-visible vehicles can trigger redrawing of all the visible ones.
10:52:55  <andythenorth> :)
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10:55:17  <Timberwolf> 1.11 will be such a milestone if all of this makes it in. 17 years in and suddenly the performance and visible smoothness take a massive leap.
10:55:17  <andythenorth> I have a stupid recursive vehicle check running in the graphics chain
10:55:29  <TrueBrain> NGC3982: what server-list? Ingame, or on our website?
10:55:56  <NGC3982> in game
10:55:56  <NGC3982> im having other issues
10:55:56  <TrueBrain> LAN game?
10:55:56  <andythenorth> removing that check increases avg FFWD factor from 8x to 10x with vehicle list window open
10:56:02  <andythenorth> windowshading the window gives FFWD factor of 30x
10:56:02  <NGC3982> TrueBrain: yes, i manually added 192.168..-game and forgot to delete it.
10:56:17  <TrueBrain> :D
10:56:17  <TrueBrain> that makes sense ;)
10:56:25  * andythenorth wonders how evil Horse is
10:56:25  <TrueBrain> our LAN discovery is also not the greatest
10:57:16  <TrueBrain> but it works, I guess :)
10:57:17  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: How many 5-tile trains can you build in game before it drops below 30fps in 1.10?
10:57:41  <andythenorth> 7?
10:57:41  * andythenorth guessing
10:57:42  <NGC3982> my server log tells me that advertising on master server is successfull, but then i get "received a packet with mismatching size from" and i cannot join my game. in the server list, i can see it (but not with the host but with <external ip>:port) and it say the server is offline
10:57:42  <andythenorth> not going to actually try :)
10:57:42  <NGC3982> i dont really know where to start looking
10:58:23  <andythenorth> hmm well
10:58:34  <andythenorth> at 9am I was going to start drawing Freightliner 'swoosh' livery in 8bit pixels
10:58:34  <andythenorth> nvm
10:58:35  * andythenorth distractions
10:58:54  <TrueBrain> NGC3982: <- this your server?
10:58:54  <NGC3982> yes
10:59:21  <Timberwolf> Timberwolf's Trains is really punishing, you can only get about 300 before it starts having noticeable performance impact on a midrange i5, if you use a lot of the 9/8 and larger vehicles.
10:59:29  <TrueBrain> okay, so a few things first: master-server lists always by IP, not by host. On a technical level, there isn't really a way to know the host :)
10:59:29  <TrueBrain> that is why you see IPs there
10:59:40  <TrueBrain> this is true for almost all games out there btw :)
10:59:56  <NGC3982> oh sorry, i ment server name
10:59:57  <TrueBrain> the servername is correct, not?
11:00:09  <TrueBrain> " #1 " ?
11:00:09  <NGC3982> " #1" is correct on the site, but not in client.
11:00:20  <TrueBrain> yes, this is the following problem
11:00:50  <TrueBrain> this will most likely work for anyone outside your network
11:00:50  <TrueBrain> but inside your network, it tries to query this server on the IP and port
11:00:50  <TrueBrain> so the 10001
11:00:50  * NGC3982 thought he hairpin:et it correctly
11:00:50  <TrueBrain> I would suspect this packet gets routed wrong
11:00:50  <NGC3982> i see
11:00:56  <TrueBrain> it is normal that you have to use your internal IP to join servers on your local network
11:00:56  <NGC3982> well, i can try it by accessing with 4g or something external
11:01:12  <andythenorth> why aren't vehicles a simpler state machine? o_O
11:01:12  * andythenorth says words
11:01:13  <TrueBrain> this often has to do with how router redirect traffic etc
11:01:18  <TrueBrain> this is why you still see an IP + port
11:01:26  <TrueBrain> as it cannot query the server for more details
11:01:44  <TrueBrain> clients get from the master-server a huge list of IP+ports to query
11:01:44  <TrueBrain> and they query them again for the exact details
11:01:50  <TrueBrain> (as the info on the master-server is lagging behind a few minutes)
11:02:28  <TrueBrain> from my computer, I can query your server just fine
11:02:54  <TrueBrain> and even join, as seen in chat :)
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11:06:49  <NGC3982> perfect
11:06:49  <NGC3982> thanks a bunch
11:06:49  <TrueBrain> no worries
11:06:49  <TrueBrain> enjoy the game :)
11:06:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:06:49  <andythenorth> FIRS industries also have measurable effect on FFWD speed
11:06:49  <andythenorth> according to the 100% scientific method of putting the viewport over a single industry, then after a minute or so, magic bulldozing it
11:06:49  <JGR> Some of the tile animation stuff has a noticeable performance cost
11:07:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:07:56  <_dp_> yeah, was just typing the same question xD
11:07:56  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the question is, is that a problem
11:07:56  <andythenorth> I suspect it's not very interesting
11:07:56  <andythenorth> drawing more things takes longer
11:08:00  <andythenorth> drawing animated things takes longer than that
11:08:03  <TrueBrain> exactly
11:08:50  <TrueBrain> static const byte * const arrangements[] = { arrange14, arrange15, arrange16, arrange17, arrange18, arrange19, arrange20 };
11:08:50  <andythenorth> the interesting part is to eliminate industries from the visible viewport if trying to test other performance things
11:08:50  <TrueBrain> wtf ..... I don't even ... wtf ... is this .. GUI doing?
11:09:22  <andythenorth> I was testing earlier and the game built 2 industries in my viewport whilst testing, which is non-negligible affect
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11:09:22  <_dp_> TrueBrain, let me guess, adjusts toolbar buttons for different widths?
11:09:22  *** avdg has quit IRC
11:09:38  <TrueBrain> I think so .. but the comments are rather vague
11:09:55  <TrueBrain> right, lets just ignore this
11:10:05  <TrueBrain> and continue on my quest
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11:10:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:11:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:11:34  <andythenorth> in a busy area of map, 7 industries cuts FFWD from 14x to 6x
11:11:34  <TrueBrain> JGR: ironically, that is the only call to SetWindowWidgetDirty that uses a magic number :D
11:11:44  <TrueBrain> the one bad example :P :D
11:11:56  <andythenorth> but the area is full of trains, and the trains have much more impact
11:11:56  <andythenorth> stopping all the visible trains, FFWD goes to 50x
11:12:08  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if you can share your savegame, I can check if this happens on other videodrivers too
11:13:03  <TrueBrain> WID_S_LEFT,   ///< Left part of the statusbar; date is shown there.
11:13:18  <TrueBrain> I wonder why it isn't called WID_S_DATE
11:13:19  <TrueBrain> same for RIGHT :P
11:13:19  <TrueBrain> but okay, that is just me :)
11:13:51  <andythenorth> TrueBrain you'd need a stack of unreleased grfs, I _can_ zip them if you want? :)
11:14:01  <TrueBrain> sure
11:14:01  * andythenorth is the worst tester ever for this reason
11:15:26  <TrueBrain> its okay, at least you don't write 8 identical questions in a row to ask a simple thing :)
11:15:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison updated pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:16:53  <JGR> Should be sorted now
11:17:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
11:17:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default
11:18:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
11:18:08  <andythenorth> TrueBrain forum DM
11:18:21  <andythenorth> think I got all the grfs :P
11:18:21  <andythenorth> so many grfs in my openttd dir
11:18:38  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I only see a message with "..." :D
11:18:40  <andythenorth> oh this new files interface :)
11:18:58  <andythenorth> fixed
11:19:55  <andythenorth> I normally test general FFWD performance in SE corner of map
11:20:00  <andythenorth> then try other areas
11:20:32  <TrueBrain> had to download a few grfs from BaNaNaS, but that is fine
11:20:49  <andythenorth> SE corner gives pretty reliable 32x for some time, until whatever performance hog / throttling is hit after 10 or so years on FFWD
11:21:19  <TrueBrain> Eggweed Docks etc?
11:22:01  <andythenorth> I push map all the way to SE, so it's mostly black
11:22:10  <andythenorth> just sea, rocks, black tiles
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11:22:36  <andythenorth> gives 32x
11:22:36  <TrueBrain> k .. doing ~7x simulation on FF
11:22:45  <TrueBrain> (at 60fps)
11:23:21  <andythenorth> Eggweed Docks area gives about 10x game speed factor
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11:23:44  <TrueBrain> let me disable autosave too
11:23:54  <andythenorth> centering viewport on Slugsburg Train Depot #9 gives about 6x game speed factor
11:23:56  <TrueBrain> I am now in SE, doing 7x
11:24:04  <TrueBrain> it sometimes drop to 5x
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11:24:21  <andythenorth> what screen resolution?
11:24:24  <TrueBrain> doing 10 years takes me a bit longer :P
11:24:27  <TrueBrain> 1024x768
11:24:37  * andythenorth changes 
11:25:06  <andythenorth> reducing screen resolution gives me 32x in SE corner
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11:25:10  <andythenorth> stable
11:25:23  <andythenorth> 1024x768
11:25:36  <TrueBrain> if you open the graph of Gameloop
11:25:42  <TrueBrain> you see that there are some nasty spikes happening
11:25:46  <andythenorth> yup
11:25:48  <TrueBrain> at those points the simulation drops
11:26:01  <TrueBrain> but otherwise, if this is what you mean, that is nothing special really
11:26:33  <andythenorth> I'm going to run it to 2050 or so
11:26:36  <LordAro> are those "nasty spikes" actually "the game" ? :p
11:26:44  <TrueBrain> monthly loops etc, yes
11:26:49  <andythenorth> they have negligible impact on FFWD factor
11:27:00  <TrueBrain> if I look at Saggington South, performance drops a lot :P
11:27:11  <TrueBrain> takes a lot more effort to draw that :D
11:27:16  <TrueBrain> but that too is to be expected, honestly
11:27:31  <andythenorth> yes
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11:27:38  <andythenorth> go to Slugsburg Train Depot #9
11:27:44  <andythenorth> I think it's all as expected
11:27:54  <andythenorth> then stop all trains, difference should be huge but expected
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11:28:20  <TrueBrain> yup
11:28:40  <TrueBrain> so I think the slowdowns you have been talking about for months is something we just call "the game" :D
11:29:49  <TrueBrain> this mostly becomes a problem if the simulation goes below 1x without FF :)
11:29:50  <andythenorth> I think there are lots of causal factors, and we don't have a stable benchmark, and it would be hard to create one
11:29:50  <andythenorth> which makes the mac performance reports hard to understand
11:29:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
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11:30:03  <TrueBrain> well, if this is what people have been reporting
11:30:03  <TrueBrain> honestly
11:30:03  <TrueBrain> that has nothing to do with "mac"
11:30:19  <TrueBrain> but just a wrong perception of what is going on :)
11:30:35  <andythenorth> well my numbers include all of Michi's changes
11:30:43  <andythenorth> which gave a plausible 10x improvement to FFWD for most of the map
11:30:55  <LordAro> and that's with your terrible i9 :p
11:30:55  <TrueBrain> the faster we make rendering, the more time there is for ff
11:31:15  <TrueBrain> this holds true for all drivers, and why I look forward to OpenGL
11:31:17  <andythenorth> and michi's changes also hold the non-FFWD fps at a 1.02x or so
11:31:22  <TrueBrain> but we should aim for a stable game at non-FF
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11:31:42  <TrueBrain> balancing around "how fast FF is" is a silly measurement :) Just a fun one, but not one with a lot of content :)
11:31:59  <TrueBrain> with my PR and OpenGL PR, you can hit 9999x simulation speed on empty maps :P
11:32:04  <TrueBrain> pretty stable even :D
11:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a common problem with metrics. people tend to focus on "easy to measure" instead of "actually helpful"
11:32:25  <andythenorth> ok I'm now in 2044, and FFWD factor has dropped from 32x to 19x
11:32:37  <andythenorth> what's unknown, is that just my mac thermally throttling?
11:32:42  * andythenorth lets it cool down
11:33:10  <andythenorth> it's red hot to touch currently
11:33:12  <TrueBrain> so yeah, if people have been reporting "mac is slow" because their FF was too low .. we can just close those tickets :P
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11:33:25  <TrueBrain> I mean, mine is 5x, where yours is 32x
11:33:34  <andythenorth> nah, the mac non-FFWD game speed was also running at 0.6x or 0.8x sometimes
11:33:38  <TrueBrain> so that means I should also create a ticket SDL is slow? :D
11:33:42  <andythenorth> but with no reproducibility
11:33:55  <andythenorth> I think that should be gone now
11:33:56  <TrueBrain> we have to be careful not to hunt our own tail here :)
11:34:22  <TrueBrain> so as long as you report 10+x simulation speed no FF, I am happy with the games you are running
11:34:22  <andythenorth> TL;DR I'd like to draw a line under mac peformance reports
11:34:57  <TrueBrain> right, time for lunch .. after that ... fiddling with how "FF dropdown" should look
11:35:04  <TrueBrain> I wonder how mad people get if I add a 0.5x
11:35:19  <andythenorth> youtube 'play slow' button
11:35:51  <andythenorth> letting the mac cool down _might_ have restored FPS
11:36:09  <andythenorth> didn't help that the game built an animated FIRS industry directly behind the FPS window, and I didn't notice :P
11:36:11  <andythenorth> testing is lolz
11:37:07  <TrueBrain> Might need a "network tick" too, which is used for the rate of docommands
11:37:31  * Timberwolf lives in a 1930s house with a few rooms that don't (yet) have anything covering the floorboards, having a nice toasty Mac to work on has been a feature.
11:37:34  * andythenorth needs the CPU temperature measuring thing
11:37:49  <andythenorth> Timberwolf does it keep the spiders away too?
11:37:57  * andythenorth has similar floorboards, the spiders climb through the cracks
11:38:48  <LordAro> it's funny, with full animation turned on i get 5x FF
11:38:49  <Timberwolf> We're not too bad for spiders, mice are a problem though.
11:38:51  <LordAro> with it turned off, 350x
11:38:52  <JGR> @Truebrain, that sounds like frame_freq?
11:39:50  <andythenorth> LordAro full animation is such a pig :)
11:39:50  <LordAro> normal run seemingly sitting at 0.95x though, which is a bit odd
11:39:54  <Timberwolf> I should probably go round checking all the airbricks are rodent-proof.
11:40:01  <andythenorth> traps :P
11:40:02  <JGR> LordAro, how much water you have on screen will probably make a significant difference there
11:40:06  <TrueBrain> JGR: yes, but it is now coupled to the game tick, so they cannot work independently :)
11:40:24  <Timberwolf> Yep, the traps get quite sad when you're emptying them though :(
11:40:39  <TrueBrain> LordAro: with my PR? :)
11:40:43  <andythenorth> Timberwolf this did catch us a mouse, using nutella as bait
11:40:43  <LordAro> JGR: 15x over land :)
11:40:46  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no, this is master
11:40:51  <andythenorth> then you have the problem of, now we have a mouse
11:41:04  <TrueBrain> Master misses deadlines constantly, so 0.95 isn't weird
11:41:09  <andythenorth> I have also caught a mouse by pure skill, using a colander
11:41:17  * andythenorth second career, rodent catcher
11:41:20  <TrueBrain> Check my PR, should fix it :)
11:41:27  <LordAro> ah, very good
11:41:47  <TrueBrain> Also your FF speed
11:41:47  <TrueBrain> Would love to know if that is true
11:41:47  <TrueBrain> So please try
11:41:47  <andythenorth> LordAro performance is so wildly varying depending on the contents of viewport :)
11:41:47  <TrueBrain> :D
11:41:47  <LordAro> #8680?
11:41:53  <TrueBrain> Yes
11:44:10  <LordAro> why does the performance window have a limit of 9999 ? :p
11:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> digits are expensive
11:54:07  <LordAro> TrueBrain: something a bit weird - gui windows are being closed before the rest of the window changes - e.g. abandon game -> yes -> <window disappears for a frame> -> return to menu
11:54:11  <LordAro> same for new game
11:54:34  <LordAro> doesn't happen every time, presumably something to do with the gui/game ticks syncing up
11:56:16  <TrueBrain> hmm, yes
11:56:28  <TrueBrain> closing of windows is handled by the draw-tick, I guess
11:57:04  <TrueBrain> yeah, that looks a bit weird, especially as returning to menu takes a long time
11:57:55  <TrueBrain> the question is, does it need fixing .. hmm
12:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> when i was looking through the screenshot code recently, i noticed there's code to hide the console on taking a screenshot, but none that hides the recently-added "select a screenshot type" window
12:01:27  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i've been irritated by that for a while, could be good to add
12:01:29  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yes, imo
12:01:41  <LordAro> bit confusing (albeit briefly) about what's happening
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12:02:08  <TrueBrain> this is already the case in several other places
12:02:13  <TrueBrain> where windows close too early
12:02:16  <JGR> I added something for that here:
12:02:21  <TrueBrain> so let me rephrase: does it need fixing in my PR :)
12:03:58  <LordAro> i'm only referring to your PR :)
12:04:45  <TrueBrain> it is always this balance, how much stuff do you put in a single PR :)
12:04:45  <TrueBrain> on a few other places this also behaves poorly, in master already
12:04:45  <TrueBrain> so should we address those all at once
12:04:47  <TrueBrain> can we find them all :D
12:05:14  <LordAro> well it makes existing issues more obvious
12:05:23  <TrueBrain> exactly
12:05:31  <LordAro> so the commit fixing them should come first, but it should be fixed in the same PR :p
12:05:46  <TrueBrain> if we go down that route, can such PR ever be done?
12:05:55  <TrueBrain> as there are other side-effects becoming apparent from this PR
12:06:05  <TrueBrain> that always have been there, but people are less likely to "see"
12:06:10  <TrueBrain> that is the balance I am trying to find :)
12:06:30  <LordAro> true
12:06:35  <nielsm> I've been thinking a bit, with that stupid argument on tt-forums, would it perhaps be an idea to add extra text to the landscape selection button tooltips?
12:06:37  <LordAro> but some are more obvious than others
12:06:56  <TrueBrain> I am not disagreeing it should be fixed btw :) Just thinking about what is the best approach here
12:07:26  <TrueBrain> nielsm: saying what? (honest question)
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12:08:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, that is the fun thing: while toying with the UI, I found many weird things that are obvious to me, but nobody reported any of them :P
12:08:32  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm reporting at least one of them!
12:08:48  <TrueBrain> and I am acknowleding it :D
12:08:52  <LordAro> it's one that was immediately obvious to me
12:09:02  <LordAro> and one that everyone will experience
12:10:02  <nielsm> "Select 'temperate' landscape style. A lush terrain with endless possibilities." "Select 'sub-arctic" landscape style. A cold, mountaneous terrain where the snow presents a challenge." "Select 'sub-tropical' landscape style. A warm landscape, where the flat desert and mountaneous rainforest regions must be connected to prosper." "Select 'toyland' landscape style. Despite the playful appearance,
12:10:02  <nielsm> this fantasy world presents a real challenge."
12:10:19  <nielsm> something like that
12:10:31  <TrueBrain> that is the part I try to balance .. how big of an impact is it really? As the mouse hangs during that time anyway, which is another thing I find rather annoying
12:10:31  <TrueBrain> especially if you have many NewGRFs
12:10:32  * andythenorth wonders if someone could draw the chart of how 'max height level', 'flatness', 'roughness' and 'variety distribution' interact
12:10:35  <TrueBrain> so I wonder if that shouldn't be addressed a different way
12:10:35  <andythenorth> and would it look like?
12:10:47  <TrueBrain> to be clear, not arguing it should be fixed LordAro , I just wonder what the scope of my PR should be :)
12:10:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: 4D charts are quite difficult to draw
12:10:58  <TrueBrain> nielsm: not a bad idea :)
12:11:03  <andythenorth> and also a version where the water amount means that not enough height levels can be provided
12:11:30  <andythenorth> also the sematics of 'flatness' I didn't get into
12:11:35  <andythenorth> because 'le oof'
12:16:21  <Timberwolf> nielsm: "Despite the playful appearance, this fantasy world will sear your eyeballs into raw sludge within 20-25 minutes" if the user has "Original (Windows)" or "Original (DOS)" selected as their baseset.
12:16:27  <TrueBrain> LordAro: mainly, I have been wondering if we shouldn't thread the GameLoop instead of the drawing loop, and keep the mouse working during "though times"
12:16:47  <TrueBrain> for example, the abandon game, hangs the game for 3+ seconds for me
12:16:55  <TrueBrain> (sometimes with sometimes without the dialog :P)
12:16:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, that's not ideal
12:17:16  <LordAro> Timberwolf: blasphemy
12:17:40  <TrueBrain> but it is a pretty huge change, I have noticed :D
12:20:02  <TrueBrain> hmm, so when you click "Ok", the window itself does a "delete this", so if the draw-tick hits before the game-tick, the window will not be drawn
12:20:59  <TrueBrain> this is mostly because our game-mode stuff is always delayed
12:21:16  <TrueBrain> (changes to game-mode)
12:22:02  <TrueBrain> this is where "hanging" helps out
12:22:53  <TrueBrain> if we want to keep the UI interactive, that won't work either
12:25:03  <TrueBrain> a solution would be to not close those UIs in those cases, as the switching of the game-mode will do that anyway
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12:25:52  <TrueBrain> multiplayer already does that, lol
12:27:05  <nielsm> I thought about adding volume sliders to the Game Options window where you can switch sound and music sets
12:27:12  <nielsm> so you can adjust the volume from the main menu
12:27:25  <Timberwolf> Oh yes, that would be nice.
12:27:27  <TrueBrain> and not force you to go ingame anymore to change volume?
12:27:32  <TrueBrain> that sounds like a regression
12:27:37  <LordAro> :D
12:27:39  <TrueBrain> I like that you have to start a new game before you can change volume!
12:27:44  <TrueBrain> THAT IS HOW I ALWAYS PLAYED IT /s :D
12:27:44  <Xaroth> wait, making it easier for users?!?
12:27:49  <TrueBrain> sorry ... it has to come out ... :P
12:27:55  <TrueBrain> go for it nielsm , sounds like a good idea :)
12:28:19  * Timberwolf prepares his "being assaulted by HONK HONK when you open the game is vital and shouldn't be changed" ticket.
12:28:19  <TrueBrain> hahahahaha
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12:29:52  <Timberwolf> Which titlegame is it that has the boat depart almost immediately as you load the game, anyway?
12:34:27  <andythenorth> also crossing bells :)
12:35:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
12:36:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: for now, fixed the issue you pointed out with a bit of a hack .. I want to fix it properly, but I rather keep that for another PR
12:36:25  <TrueBrain> at least it no longer regresses
12:36:49  * JGR is a big fan of NoSound and NoMusic
12:38:00  <TrueBrain> there is so much work to do here .. we have so many different ways of fixing problems stacked on top of each other :D Modal windows solved a similar problem as draw-threads did in a completely different way :P
12:40:29  <TrueBrain> nielsm: also a good improvement for music, if there is not a valid music player, that it doesn't try 10 news songs a second constantly all the time all day every day :D
12:41:01  <nielsm> TrueBrain definitely yes...
12:41:45  <TrueBrain> the fast-foward button is funny .. if you enable it, it disables itself during autosave .. but if you press it just at that moment, you don't disable it
12:41:53  <TrueBrain> so sometimes you need a few clicks before you get it disabled
12:42:15  <TrueBrain> why does it disable during autosave?
12:42:44  <TrueBrain> Also turn off fast-forward cause with that saving takes Aaaaages
12:42:53  <TrueBrain> someone was melodramatic :P
12:43:47  <TrueBrain> ah, it restores the state as it was when saving started
12:44:17  <TrueBrain> when threaded, I would argue, it is no longer true saving takes "ages" when FF is on
12:44:21  <TrueBrain> as it happens on another thread
12:44:26  <TrueBrain> is that a wrong assumption?
12:44:56  <LordAro> what happens when FF is so fast that it hits another autosave before finishing the last one?
12:45:10  <TrueBrain> assert(!_sl.saveinprogress); for sure
12:45:24  <LordAro> that's probably why then :)
12:45:33  <TrueBrain> not what the comment says :)
12:45:45  <TrueBrain> but it is a fair point
12:46:25  <TrueBrain> so much global state ...
12:47:07  <TrueBrain> while saving is pretty isolated
12:47:07  <TrueBrain> just the state of what saving is doing, is global :)
12:47:44  <TrueBrain> you can spend weeks in this code :P
12:47:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
12:48:01  <JGR> If saving is still happening when another autosave happens, the new autosave request is just dropped silently
12:48:48  <TrueBrain> if (!_do_autosave) ShowErrorMessage(STR_ERROR_SAVE_STILL_IN_PROGRESS, INVALID_STRING_ID, WL_ERROR);
12:49:02  <TrueBrain> but it is still a valid point, disabling FF during autosave makes it less likely this to happen
12:49:16  <TrueBrain> on the other hand .. do you want saves that quickly :P
12:51:43  <TrueBrain> but okay, lets not step into this rabbit hole ..
12:57:39  <andythenorth>
12:59:49  <TrueBrain> running the game at 0.25x the speed is funny
13:00:00  <TrueBrain> it shows graphical issues a lot better
13:00:31  <LordAro> could add it if newgrf_developer is enabled :)
13:02:19  <TrueBrain>
13:02:35  <TrueBrain> the engine of the truck jumps up many pixels
13:02:37  <TrueBrain> and the wagon clips in the bridge
13:02:37  <TrueBrain> :D
13:03:27  <TrueBrain> other than that, it is really funny to play at 0.25x :D
13:03:47  <TrueBrain> so much time to do things
13:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they could have used var 62...
13:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> or 45
13:05:20  <TrueBrain> it does, however, require subpixel vehicle movement :P
13:05:21  <TrueBrain> they now jump constantly :D
13:05:27  <TrueBrain> as in, move fluent for 4 pixels, stand still for 1 frame, move again
13:05:42  <TrueBrain> rounding errors are a bitch
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13:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also, discrepancy between diagonal and straight movement speed
13:06:48  <TrueBrain> <- derailment!
13:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and distance distortion
13:06:48  <LordAro> TrueBrain: those have always been obvious :p
13:06:48  <TrueBrain> yes
13:06:53  <TrueBrain> the latter for sure
13:07:03  <TrueBrain> the first I always saw being weird
13:07:03  <TrueBrain> but could never put my finger on it
13:07:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's part of why i started CETS, but that's not really been optimized either
13:08:19  <Timberwolf> Same, in fact my 12/8 and longer vehicles are worse than default.
13:08:33  <TrueBrain> so, FF ... 2x, 4x, 8x, 16?
13:08:33  <TrueBrain> 2x, 4x, 6x, 8x, 10x?
13:08:46  <Timberwolf> Well... not worse than if you had a 12/8 vehicle using the 8-sprite rotation scheme, but definitely worse than an 8/8 vehicle.
13:08:46  <LordAro> 16, imo
13:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: maybe x2, x5, x10?
13:09:21  <TrueBrain> I will toy with them all
13:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> progression between x8 and x10 seems pointless
13:09:49  <Timberwolf> I like powers of 2.
13:10:08  <Timberwolf> x2, x4, x8, "show off my single-thread CPU performance"
13:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said earlier
13:10:45  <LordAro> "maximum", if you were wanting an actual name for it :p
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13:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> warp
13:13:57  *** Yexo has quit IRC
13:13:57  <LordAro> "you might miss a decade if you're not paying attention"
13:13:57  <TrueBrain> I know how I would like it in the GUI, but we don't have a widget for that yet ... and inventing something new might not be the best thing
13:13:57  <TrueBrain> on the other hand, it might be useful for many other places too :P
13:13:57  <Timberwolf> Make it like the swing controls from old golf games, where you hold down the button longer before releasing for more acceleration.
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13:13:57  <Timberwolf> It can start shaking once you're above 16x,
13:13:57  <TrueBrain> haha :D
13:13:57  <LordAro> haha
13:13:57  <LordAro> something up with ottdc today
13:18:30  <TrueBrain> poor ottdc :(
13:20:03  <NGC3982> what does the c stand for?
13:20:04  <nielsm> coop
13:22:44  <TrueBrain> okay, turns out, 16x is a bit silly
13:22:55  <TrueBrain> so 2x, 4x, 8x seems to be sufficient
13:22:56  <TrueBrain> needs more testing ofc
13:23:12  <TrueBrain> and 2-4-8 or 2-5-10 doesn't really matter at that point
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13:26:05  <andythenorth> so 0.25x is new daylength?
13:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so 0.25x is new daylength? <-- not how it works :p
13:27:30  <andythenorth> for shame
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13:31:51  <TrueBrain> depends on how you define daylength
13:31:51  <TrueBrain> hmm, dropdown feels weird
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13:36:45  <TrueBrain> you don't see what you have selected anymore after selecting
13:36:56  <TrueBrain> I wonder ... what about a new window to see your game speed
13:37:03  <TrueBrain> where you can select what you want
13:37:11  <TrueBrain> and possibly even what you are currently reaching
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13:38:24  * andythenorth seriously considering defining a 512 colour swatch
13:38:42  <TrueBrain> what is preventing you?
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13:42:15  <andythenorth> having a clear idea of 'why'
13:42:39  <andythenorth> I use so much of the TTD palette for 'magic' recolouring of my own, it restricts choices
13:43:51  <andythenorth> but there are 13 'wasted' slots for pinks, I could use those
13:44:07  <andythenorth> (this is all pre-processed in my compile)
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14:00:26  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf make it like the spin control in Tekken Bowl
14:01:36  <supermop_Home_> with an arrow swinging back and forth from left to right an you have to time it to get the value you want
14:01:47  <andythenorth> I made flash games like that
14:01:47  <andythenorth> quite addict
14:03:27  <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain who's truck is that?
14:03:32  <TrueBrain> ask andythenorth , his game :P
14:03:32  <TrueBrain> I really do not know :)
14:03:49  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ Hog
14:04:01  <supermop_Home_> love the grille on front
14:04:24  <supermop_Home_> quite nice work
14:04:55  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth make the start vehicle button like that.... where you got to get it lined up or the vehicle will careen out of control into the gutter
14:05:33  <supermop_Home_> hmm now i want to work on flume more
14:05:44  <supermop_Home_> and make splashes vs wakes when accelerating or decelerating
14:07:43  <supermop_Home_> currently i made the logs spark
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14:13:22  <Samu> hello
14:13:44  <TrueBrain> LordAro: possibly stupid question: I have 2 enums, 1 for the widget, 1 for the internal state. They are in the same order. Is it fine to cast this, or better to have a switch-case matching them?
14:14:18  <LordAro> hmm
14:14:28  <LordAro> why are there 2 enums if they're otherwise identical?
14:14:40  <TrueBrain> as I said: widgets vs internal state
14:14:50  <LordAro> why not reuse one or the other?
14:14:52  <TrueBrain> WID_GS_SLOWER_4X vs GAME_SPEED_SLOWER_4X
14:14:56  <LordAro> or define one in terms of the other
14:14:59  <TrueBrain> because all widgets enums start with WID_
14:15:14  <TrueBrain> they strictly seen have nothing to do with each other
14:15:18  <TrueBrain> so that is not really logic too
14:15:22  <TrueBrain> they just happen to be in the same order
14:15:23  <Samu> I'm trying to understand what kind of ordering is this
14:15:41  <LordAro> probably a switch statement is the "technically correct" solution then
14:15:56  <LordAro> though a cast + static_assert might be enough
14:15:58  <TrueBrain> it feels a bit weird, but I have no real problems with it :D
14:16:36  <TrueBrain> no WID_ value is ever defined btw, so yeah, that doesn't seem the correct solution
14:16:39  <TrueBrain> k, will do switch for now
14:16:43  <TrueBrain> people can shoot at it later :P
14:17:10  <TrueBrain> tnx
14:17:30  <Samu> if p1 is 67 and p2 is 50, p1 > p2 so a swap is made
14:17:47  <Samu> then returns (50 << 8) + 67
14:18:31  <Samu> 12867 percentage
14:18:40  <Samu> very confusing
14:22:14  <LordAro> Samu: it's not "percentage" as such
14:22:32  <LordAro> it's just combining the numbers in such a way that you can compare 2 numbers at once
14:23:39  <LordAro> e.g. if a second industry is p1=85, p2=50
14:23:51  <LordAro> even though p2 is the same, it can still compare differently in an easy way
14:24:40  <LordAro> i'm guessing this is relating to industries with more producing cargos
14:27:31  <LordAro> i suspect the best solution would be to compare the average produced cargo percentage across all cargoes
14:29:23  <Samu> i went with sum of percentages
14:29:38  <Samu> but i'm thinking about doing average of percentages
14:29:52  <LordAro> sum of will favour industries with more cargoes
14:29:59  <LordAro> which the whole thing is trying to avoid
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14:39:30  <TrueBrain>
14:39:35  <TrueBrain> not too happy about 1/4th and 1/2th
14:39:56  <TrueBrain> otherwise this seems to be the most intuitive solution I have found
14:41:01  <TrueBrain>
14:41:02  <TrueBrain> bit better I guess
14:45:37  <LordAro> i'm not sure i like the inconsistency
14:45:55  <TrueBrain> open for suggestions
14:45:55  <LordAro> why not 100% 200% etc?
14:45:57  <TrueBrain> I rather have icons, honestly, but ........ yeah :P
14:46:03  <TrueBrain> that looks really odd too, let me create that for you
14:46:25  <LordAro> yeah, alternatively get Andy to draw some icons :p
14:46:45  <TrueBrain>
14:46:46  <LordAro> then you don't need the window, as you can display the current speed in the toolbar
14:46:52  <LordAro> mm, too long
14:47:02  <TrueBrain> you still need the window ;)
14:47:02  <TrueBrain> but yes, showing it in the toolbar would be cherry-on-top
14:47:14  <LordAro> yeah, but it could be a dropdown instead of a window :p
14:47:15  <TrueBrain> no, dropdown really doesn't work
14:47:18  <LordAro> not really a fan of the window
14:47:18  <TrueBrain> I tried :)
14:47:18  <LordAro> :/
14:47:34  <TrueBrain> I can give you a build if you really like, but it is really annoying to use
14:47:50  <TrueBrain> what I would prefer, is having a slider you can use
14:47:56  <TrueBrain> but that would require me to invent a widget
14:48:01  <TrueBrain> not sure I am up for that :D
14:48:08  <LordAro> :D
14:48:44  <TrueBrain> few things with dropdown: enabling and selecting become a bit weird
14:48:49  <TrueBrain> does only clicking the button enable/disable it?
14:48:54  <TrueBrain> or do you always have to click a value
14:49:02  <LordAro> in my head, the former
14:49:04  <TrueBrain> I tried both, it both felt like shit
14:49:14  <TrueBrain> the former only works if the top item is "enable/disable"
14:49:15  <TrueBrain> as that is how those menus work
14:49:46  <TrueBrain> so if you only want to enable/disable FF, you get this dropdown jumping at you
14:50:04  <TrueBrain> and yes, it for sure needs icons in that case
14:50:04  <TrueBrain> as otherwise you have no clue on what speed you are
14:50:04  <LordAro> but the railtype dropdown preselects the last used item?
14:50:10  <TrueBrain> all together, it feels like it was trying to fit a square in a circle
14:50:21  <LordAro> mm, fair
14:51:00  <TrueBrain> this approach I took now many games have
14:51:00  <TrueBrain> so it feels a bit more natural to me
14:51:01  <TrueBrain> but I might be COMPLETELY biased :D
14:51:01  <LordAro> hang on, there is a slider widget - in the sound/music window
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> that is a different type of slider, but yes
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> so I can rip that :D
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> but it took me, what, 2 hours to make this GUI
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> so I am a bit scared :P
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> for sure I am going to try :D
14:51:35  <LordAro> just make it have 4 points, rather than 100 or whatever
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> haha, yes
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> discrete values  :D
14:52:04  <TrueBrain> what I also want to toy with, is show above these buttons the current simulation speed
14:52:04  <TrueBrain> so you can spot when your CPU is not getting shit done
14:54:21  <TrueBrain> music thing is custom drawn
14:54:55  <TrueBrain> now the question .. do I make a new PR out of this, that is on top of the other
14:54:55  <TrueBrain> or just push it in the same
14:56:53  <TrueBrain> new PR is better
14:57:39  <LordAro> yeah, new PR
14:58:06  <TrueBrain> can I flip the fast-forward button when you slow down .... :D
14:58:06  <TrueBrain> I love gimmicks
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14:59:53  <nielsm> oh yeah that's right, when you have the code to let video drivers update the screen between game loops, you can also slow the speed down since lower tick rate won't affect input responsiveness
14:59:53  <nielsm> nice
14:59:59  <TrueBrain> :D
15:00:04  <TrueBrain> purely by accident, all of this
15:00:07  <TrueBrain> but I am liking it :D
15:00:32  <andythenorth> slider!
15:00:35  <nielsm> and well, you can technically adjust the game speed freely, not just in steps, by having a dynamic ms_per_tick
15:01:02  <TrueBrain> nielsm: absolutely
15:01:02  <TrueBrain> but not sure that makes for good UI
15:01:10  <nielsm> yeah it'll be troublesome UI
15:01:29  * andythenorth wonders what will happen to wording of 'game speed' when we do daylength :D
15:01:29  <nielsm> maybe have a console command if you really want to do it
15:01:29  <andythenorth> which is NOT NOW :)
15:01:29  <TrueBrain> so currently I made it discrete values, and the videodriver translates it into ms
15:01:50  <TrueBrain> but I can also push that a layer higher
15:01:50  <nielsm> (that could also allow dedicated servers to adjust the game speed? unsure if that's a good idea)
15:02:13  <TrueBrain> that the video driver gets an ms value
15:02:21  <TrueBrain> well, I do think that is a good idea, honestly :)
15:02:21  <TrueBrain> but it requires us to decouple network-ticks from game-ticks too
15:02:21  <TrueBrain> say, a dedicated server runs at 10%
15:02:59  <TrueBrain> it would also only allow 2 commands per second or something
15:02:59  <TrueBrain> it would become a bit silly :P
15:03:00  <nielsm> there is that one game server host that's received a lot of critique, one of the critiques I've heard is a claim that they intentionally run the game at a lower rate
15:03:26  <TrueBrain> I guess that has to do with it also decreasing the responsiveness of the game :)
15:03:41  <TrueBrain> as in master I think your game will also become as slow as the server, in terms of GUI
15:03:54  <nielsm> it will yes
15:03:54  <TrueBrain> not sure, honestly
15:04:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:04:17  <TrueBrain> there is some coupling going on there
15:04:17  <Samu> I have a feeling this is going to fail
15:05:16  <Samu> enum struct or enum class?
15:05:24  <LordAro> enum struct is not a thing
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15:05:38  <Samu> enum struct SorterType : uint8
15:06:05  <LordAro> oh wait
15:06:05  <LordAro> what
15:06:05  <nielsm> uh maybe it means the same thing
15:06:05  <Samu> it compiled
15:06:05  <nielsm> but "enum class" is the normal thing to do
15:06:05  <LordAro>
15:06:05  <LordAro> so it does
15:06:05  <LordAro> TIL
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15:07:06  <nielsm> "the keywords class and struct are exactly equivalent" it says
15:07:17  <nielsm> so you should be writing "enum class" because "enum struct" will just confuse readers
15:08:17  <Samu> ok, will change
15:09:12  <Samu> linux failed
15:10:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8693:  Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
15:10:47  <Samu> 'IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType' is not implicitly convertible to 'int'
15:11:12  <nielsm> yes that's one of the features of enum class
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15:12:42  <TrueBrain> LordAro: <- this was why I was asking :D Please let me know if that is just terrible :D (it most likely is :D)
15:13:25  <TrueBrain> looking over my own patch, I think I am just going to call it _game_speed_multiplier, and allow the console to set any number .. I kinda like that idea nielsm :)
15:13:25  <TrueBrain> so you can set it to 0.001 for all I care, up to 10000 for all I care
15:13:29  <TrueBrain> might want to non-float it .. so ... "100" for regular
15:13:49  <glx> TrueBrain: order in game speed enum is weird
15:14:15  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, I fucked up there :P
15:14:47  <nielsm> call the original/traditional fast-forward "Haugan"
15:14:47  <TrueBrain> which I didn't notice as I used a switch to convert :D
15:14:56  <nielsm> after the Yate Haugan
15:14:56  <TrueBrain> who?
15:14:56  <nielsm> "the game's haugan along"
15:15:20  <TrueBrain> ah, plane
15:15:55  <glx> the unclickable plane
15:15:59  <glx> (without pausing)
15:16:06  <TrueBrain> with 0.25 that is no longer true >:D
15:16:10  <nielsm> or Hyperdart
15:17:36  <TrueBrain> I really need to abstract the gameloop from the videodrivers .. this is just silly, the amount of copy/paste
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15:21:04  <Samu> how do i covert to int?
15:21:20  <nielsm> static_cast<int>(variable)
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15:24:47  <Samu> switch (this->industries.SortType()) returns a uint8 though
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15:27:57  <Samu> then what is the point of uint8 here
15:28:31  <Samu> const enum class SorterType : uint8
15:28:32  <nielsm> the storage size
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15:28:46  <nielsm> and permitted range of integral values
15:30:19  <Samu> but ... it doesn't make sense, if it only works with int
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15:30:47  <Samu> case static_cast<int>(IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType::IDW_SORT_BY_PRODUCTION):
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15:31:33  <LordAro> Samu: cast SortType() to SorterType
15:31:45  <LordAro> or better, make SortType return the correct type
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15:32:33  <Samu> SortType is part of sortlist_type.h
15:32:45  <Samu> better not change there
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15:37:17  <Samu> ok i think i got it
15:37:22  <Samu> let's see if linux still complains
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15:38:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:38:44  *** Ammler has joined #openttd
15:38:47  <Samu> switch (static_cast<IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType>(this->industries.SortType())) {
15:38:52  <Samu> gets uglier
15:38:54  <Samu> but ok
15:45:58  * andythenorth might remove cargo_age_period from Horse
15:46:09  <andythenorth> far as I can tell it really is useless
15:46:37  <andythenorth> comparing vehicles with different values for it on same route produces no meaningful result
15:46:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8693:  Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
15:46:52  <Timberwolf> it does weird things.
15:47:26  <Timberwolf> My preservation railways use extreme values (74 to 5*74) and it's... non-linear.
15:47:43  <Timberwolf> You need something like a 192-tile route with 30mph trains for it to make a major difference.
15:48:06  <Samu> Error: /home/runner/work/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/src/industry_gui.cpp:1315:2: error: ‘const’ can only be specified for objects and functions
15:48:23  <andythenorth> I did a big test game and proved it has an effect in very artificial test situations
15:48:28  <Samu> const enum class SorterType : uint8
15:48:32  <Samu> it doesn't like const
15:49:07  <andythenorth> but with cdist, transfers, delays on real game routes, varying load factors....
15:49:07  <andythenorth> there's no sense that adjusting cargo_age_period up or down has any effect the player can control
15:49:28  <Timberwolf> Indeed.
15:49:58  <TrueBrain> When we planned to go to Steam, I should have put some money how often people said: you are doing this because you go to Steam, right?
15:50:26  <TrueBrain> I would made at least 3 times what-ever I bet on it already
15:50:26  <Timberwolf> Late game with faster trains there aren't enough "age cargo" ticks between source and destination.
15:50:26  <andythenorth> my route is about 160 tiles, so I thought it would trigger
15:50:26  <Timberwolf> Heh.
15:50:47  <Timberwolf> I like the assumption the development channel is organised and planned to this degree.
15:51:00  <TrueBrain> like we are not just doing what-ever-the-fuck-we-want
15:51:35  <Timberwolf> You don't have some secret grand anti-player plan?
15:52:03  <andythenorth> even if we did, it wouldn't survive the first hour
15:52:18  <andythenorth> and we'd never agree on it in the first place
15:52:27  <Timberwolf> newgrf variables for defining and adding vehicles to loot crates, pls.
15:52:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:52:44  <andythenorth> with GS support
15:52:55  <andythenorth> but seriously, vehicle customisation
15:53:15  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: under it all, you often notice people expect we run OpenTTD like a company :) Like we can "force" people to do stuff or something :)
15:53:16  <andythenorth> I mean we _could_ allow paying to customise vehicles, or unlock liveries as rewards
15:53:16  <TrueBrain> it is cute :)
15:53:39  <andythenorth> along with the assumption that "it's the players that make OpenTTD"
15:53:51  <andythenorth> because without customers...what are we?
15:54:21  * andythenorth mumbles
15:54:21  <andythenorth> anyway, vehicle liveries when?
15:54:36  <andythenorth> also can we have negative running costs?  Instead of overflow?
15:54:36  <TrueBrain> I just like the Steam comments most, as I am pretty sure nobody gives a shit about us going to Steam, or what the reviews will say :P
15:54:36  <andythenorth> I want trains that earn income en-route
15:54:46  <TrueBrain> (us = developers)
15:55:18  * andythenorth intends to have pax coaches selling Kit-kats 
15:55:18  <andythenorth> and tea
15:55:18  <TrueBrain> really like 0 fucks are given; it is nice to have Steam as distribution platform, but .. +0 :D
15:55:53  <TrueBrain> guess I should not reply that on the forums :P
15:55:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:56:02  <andythenorth> I typed a reply yesterday that said "please send me some fucks to give, because I looked in my bag of fucks and it's empty"
15:56:23  <andythenorth> but can't say that on forums
15:56:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8693:  Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
15:56:23  <TrueBrain> you are senior management on the forums, I have been told
15:56:23  <TrueBrain> so yeah, you cannot :)
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15:56:50  <andythenorth> I have never ever been granted any kind of responsibility in forums at all
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15:56:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:56:50  <Timberwolf> A senior member of the community who should know better, no less!
15:56:50  * andythenorth is just a user
15:57:06  <TrueBrain> owh, member, not management, so that is better
15:57:19  <andythenorth> I am down with that
15:57:19  <andythenorth> what is earnt can be lost again
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> and you get paid to be a senior member, so you should behave!
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> and be professional
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> and everything
15:57:23  <andythenorth> by Steam
15:57:28  <andythenorth> why are we being foolish?
15:57:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
15:57:38  <TrueBrain> well, honestly, your replies were on the edge of bannable offense, so there was somewhat of a point :)
15:57:50  <Timberwolf> You'll be in the news as a "community leader" the next time there's a study that shows OpenTTD players have poor vaccination takeup or something.
15:57:50  <andythenorth> we should be sensibly discussing extending the newgrf spec
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15:58:08  <TrueBrain> oeh, yes, lets call andythenorth the community leader from now on :D
15:58:22  <TrueBrain> I like that!
15:58:22  <andythenorth> "community leader" in UK-news-speak just means "people without the dominant skin colour in this country"
15:58:24  <andythenorth> and I don't fit the criteria
15:58:24  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am trying to avoid us talking about NewGRF specs, can't you tell? :D
15:58:30  <andythenorth> my kids do but eh
15:58:30  <TrueBrain> I feel so excluded when you guys do :(
15:58:44  <andythenorth> no you don't
15:58:44  <TrueBrain> you can't tell me how I feel
15:58:50  <andythenorth> oh yeah sorry
15:59:22  <TrueBrain> you don't pay my subscription!
15:59:22  * andythenorth apologises
15:59:22  <andythenorth> how do you feel TrueBrain ?
15:59:22  <TrueBrain> happy
15:59:22  <TrueBrain> you?
15:59:22  <andythenorth> lolzy
15:59:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
15:59:31  <andythenorth> ready for my 55 hour work week next week, and the 5 weeks after that
15:59:52  <TrueBrain> pam pam pammmmmmmm
15:59:52  <andythenorth> but seriously, negative running costs
15:59:58  <andythenorth> so my trains can earn money in the restaurant car
16:00:08  <TrueBrain> funny idea :D
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16:00:25  <andythenorth> I did try just signing the attr
16:00:25  <andythenorth> but it wraps
16:00:45  * andythenorth wonders how wrong it could go if we just made it signed
16:01:53  <andythenorth> it amuses me that I could make a train go round a circle, just earning money
16:01:53  <andythenorth> by selling mars bars
16:01:53  <TrueBrain> well, it should be relative to the amount of pax on board
16:01:53  <TrueBrain> so you can load a train full
16:01:53  <andythenorth> yes
16:01:53  <TrueBrain> run around in circles
16:01:53  <TrueBrain> that is torture in another dimension
16:02:01  <andythenorth> that can be done, check load when leaving station
16:02:01  <Samu> yes! gcc, g++ stopped complaining!
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16:02:01  <TrueBrain> new death-scenario: pax died because he was overweight
16:02:43  <andythenorth> I was thinking of Ice Cream Van RVs also
16:02:43  <andythenorth> drives around town, just making money
16:02:43  <TrueBrain> and taking kids
16:02:43  <Xaroth> This is getting real dark real fast.
16:02:43  <TrueBrain> so with  1% chance you get 10x the normal profit
16:02:43  <Xaroth> (Not saying that was a bad thing)
16:02:56  <andythenorth> I think you have different ice cream vans where you live
16:02:56  <andythenorth> ours seem less dangerous
16:03:11  <TrueBrain> only seems that way, no worries
16:03:11  <andythenorth> Mind That Child!
16:03:11  <Samu> theoretically, a division by 0 should not occur
16:03:33  <andythenorth>
16:03:33  <Xaroth> Not unless you want to implode the universe, no.
16:03:33  <TrueBrain> @calc 1/0
16:03:33  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: float division by zero
16:03:33  <TrueBrain> OWH SNAP IT DID HAPPEN
16:03:50  <Xaroth> andythenorth: Sonic is missing an eye...
16:04:25  <Samu> i mean in here:
16:04:25  <andythenorth> so disturb
16:04:43  <Xaroth> and an earlobe
16:04:43  <Timberwolf> One of the ice cream vans round here has a really sinister chime.
16:04:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
16:05:05  <Samu> c starts with value 0
16:05:05  <Timberwolf> It's one of the normal ice cream van tunes, but every so often one of the notes is unexpectedly from the minor key.
16:05:08  <andythenorth> Timberwolf did you have these in the late 80s?
16:05:22  <andythenorth> chimes are rad
16:05:30  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: that always scares the shit out of me, when that happens :P
16:05:48  <Xaroth> Samu: if i->produced_cargo is an empty array, c would remain 0.
16:05:57  <TrueBrain> can I say Timberwolf , I am happy you are chatty on IRC :)
16:06:07  <Xaroth> or if none of those if blocks trigger.
16:06:32  <Timberwolf> The other one doesn't have a proper chime, it has something like a NES sound chip amplified.
16:07:35  <Samu> i->produced_cargo isn't supposed to be empty
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16:07:54  <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: this is mostly just complete inability to focus :)
16:08:10  <TrueBrain> well, I like it; at least it is not only me and andythenorth being all blablabla :D
16:08:26  <andythenorth> I mean this is basically how I socialise
16:08:38  <andythenorth> this way it's not rude to read the internet and watch YouTube whilst hanging out
16:08:47  <andythenorth> and we don't have to talk about shit that's dull
16:09:42  <andythenorth> well...Truebrain seems scared of newgrf, but I'm sure that's ok
16:09:44  <andythenorth> we don't mind
16:09:55  <Timberwolf> IRC means my OH can't steal all my friends into a different discussion :p
16:10:12  <TrueBrain> haha :D
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16:12:06  <Samu> is there a chance where lengthof(i->produced_cargo) is 0?
16:12:20  <Samu> from what i've tested, it was never the case
16:12:29  <Samu> it was always 16
16:12:40  <andythenorth> so do we want (1) newgrf liveries (vehicle skins), which can support autoreplace etc or (2) vehicle customisation options (appearance and stats), which probably can't support autoreplace etc or (3) both
16:12:42  <andythenorth> ?
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16:12:57  <andythenorth> (1) would be best as a simple spec, but will be instantly abused to do (2) anyway
16:14:28  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Not in the late '80s, we had one local ice cream man who'd had the same van since about 1972.
16:14:43  <andythenorth> yeah that's the traditional model
16:14:52  <andythenorth> the hemglass vans were an interloper of sorts
16:15:06  <andythenorth> they sold boxes of ice creams, instead of individual
16:15:13  <andythenorth> it was like Iceland on wheels
16:15:30  <Timberwolf> We had the fish man.
16:15:56  <Timberwolf> My dad says he still gets one of those on his little old people estate!
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16:24:25  <andythenorth> ours came from Grimsby
16:24:42  <andythenorth> in something like an Escort van
16:25:03  <andythenorth> or a Marina van
16:25:11  <andythenorth> yeah probably this
16:29:55  <glx> Samu: produced cargo is a fixed size array IIRC
16:30:23  <glx> but it can contain 16 invalid cargos is the industry doesn't porduce anything
16:30:54  <Timberwolf> Ours had a Nissan Urvan, I think.
16:30:54  <Timberwolf>
16:33:37  <glx> anyway your code seems to always increase c at least one time
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16:33:59  <glx> so minimum value at the end of the loop is 1, if my reading is correct
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16:35:54  <andythenorth> Timberwolf yours came from Australia? :o
16:36:04  <andythenorth> long trip
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16:37:52  <glx> with no produced cargo, c will be 1 and p will be -1 (mental run of the code, not verified in real)
16:38:31  <Timberwolf> Heh. There were a few of those vans around.
16:38:59  <Timberwolf> Friend's parents (with a large family) had a Toyota LiteAce. That was an amusing vehicle.
16:38:59  <glx> small minivan
16:39:05  <glx> IIRC
16:39:22  <Timberwolf> Tiny wheelbase and huge overhangs.
16:39:46  <Timberwolf> Pitched amusingly fore and aft whenever it was in motion.
16:42:23  <Timberwolf> We had a succession of Bluebirds, with one Volvo 240 in there. Until my parents divorced and my dad decided to go all low-budget extravagant and buy an old Granada.
16:42:48  <Timberwolf> That was excellent, like a '70s sitting room inside. Loads of brown velour and (presumably fake) teak.
16:43:56  * andythenorth remembers driving
16:43:56  <andythenorth> it was a thing that used to happen
16:44:47  <TrueBrain> remember the time people all went to a single building to work? LOLZ! That good old time ...
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16:50:59  <Timberwolf> I had one of those where the single building was just the place you all met up while deciding which pub you were going to disappear to that day...
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17:04:01  <andythenorth> I don't mind the new game mode
17:04:02  <andythenorth> but I miss driving my van around
17:04:11  <andythenorth> there was a lot of tedious grinding though in the old mode
17:04:44  <andythenorth> like micro-management tasks that seem to have been removed
17:04:44  <andythenorth> 'shopping' etc
17:07:51  <Timberwolf> The "Tube" level in particular felt like it was padding out a lot of time reusing the same assets.
17:07:52  <Timberwolf> Impressive NPC instancing techniques, though.
17:08:27  <andythenorth> dunno, I have been counting, I think there are only about 70 NPC meshes
17:08:27  <andythenorth> and they only have 15 behaviours
17:08:27  <Timberwolf> Miss the larger map from the old version.
17:08:27  <andythenorth> more detail in the current one
17:09:37  * andythenorth considers getting Landlord's Super
17:09:41  <andythenorth> to relive actual childhood
17:09:54  <andythenorth> being made somewhere near me, which is very not the 1980s North
17:10:33  <Timberwolf> You don't find the lack of enterable buildings in the current update frustrating?
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17:11:45  <andythenorth> I've found I can substitute using video games
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17:37:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
17:38:49  *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd
17:39:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
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17:42:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default
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17:45:17  <TrueBrain> LordAro: if you flip a coin, how does it land for you when looking at ? :)
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17:48:15  <supermop_Home_> andy, love that that video shows you cutting in corners with a tiny brush in addition to using the roller
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17:51:00  <TrueBrain> wauw, someone dug up a 8 year old thread on the forums .. that is impressive search skills right there
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18:26:02  <andythenorth> -ve running costs then...
18:28:10  <Timberwolf> You've just broken my train with £2,150,000,000 per year running costs, literally unplayable.
18:28:23  <Timberwolf> Actually it's running cost base isn't it, does anyone use the range 32768-65535? That's possibly more feasible if they're doing really granular running costs (whether deliberately or inadvertently)
18:28:23  <andythenorth> I had similar
18:29:22  <andythenorth> I left FFWD on with £2m running costs
18:29:22  <andythenorth> oops
18:30:02  <andythenorth> I didn't actually look which prop it was, but yes, plausibly it can't be made signed
18:30:13  <andythenorth> some other mechanic for "this vehicle gives a bonus" then?
18:30:39  <andythenorth> my favourite so far is allowing vehicles to influence station rating
18:31:07  <andythenorth> given that (1) money is no big deal (2) existing ratings mechanic isn't stupid, but has stupid elements
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18:33:47  <andythenorth> 'age of last vehicle' is particularly silly :)
18:34:39  * andythenorth not sure how it would work yet
18:35:00  <andythenorth> but restaurant coaches, sleeper coaches, brake vans, luxury ships...
18:35:23  <andythenorth> could have a positive effect on station rating
18:35:27  <Timberwolf> Cartics full of Austin 1100s, surely.
18:35:42  <andythenorth> motorail
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18:36:25  <andythenorth> the SNCF coach that had a children's playground in it
18:42:35  <TrueBrain> <- can we please make this title game entry win this year?
18:42:41  <supermop_Home_> evangelion anniversary shinkansen
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18:44:15  <andythenorth> if Toyland wins I have to switch to Simutrans
18:44:16  <andythenorth> I like the boats though
18:44:29  <TrueBrain> another incentive, nice :D
18:44:29  <TrueBrain> owh, euhhhhhhh
18:44:29  <TrueBrain> <3 :P
18:44:32  <andythenorth> Toyland, nearly the nicest climate
18:45:09  <andythenorth> only 3 others are nicer
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18:45:18  <TrueBrain> it is in the top 4!!
18:45:49  <andythenorth> it is!
18:45:49  <andythenorth> station ratings eh?
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18:46:17  <LordAro> i love how little effort (presumably zeph) put into those "bush trees"
18:46:24  <LordAro> it's a very basic sphere shape
18:46:52  <TrueBrain> apple on a stick!
18:47:06  <andythenorth> it's probably beer time eh?
18:47:06  <Wuzzy> Can someone please review <>?
18:47:23  <LordAro> but yes, the general look of the scene is very nice
18:47:23  <LordAro> just convert it to one of the other climates :p
18:47:23  <TrueBrain> one of the other in the top 4!
18:47:32  <LordAro> s/look/layout
18:47:32  <andythenorth> Timberwolf so Euro trains next?
18:47:43  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i think we had a toyland entry every year, and everyone said "wait, that looks nice", until they saw the title screen with original graphics
18:47:43  <LordAro> TrueBrain: there are 4 entries so far, aren't there? :p
18:47:43  * andythenorth enjoys having another big set developing in parallel
18:47:54  <TrueBrain> its too bad title screen extend from the topleft, instead of center .. that sould be better, but okay ..
18:48:00  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no, we meant top 4 from the climates
18:48:20  <LordAro> oh, lol
18:48:28  <TrueBrain> I mean, toyland is in the top 4, so that is something
18:48:48  <TrueBrain> just imagine, this launching on steam
18:48:49  <TrueBrain> someone installs the game
18:48:49  <TrueBrain> opens it
18:48:49  <TrueBrain> gets this
18:48:49  <TrueBrain> :D
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18:49:50  <LordAro> hmm, only 1 entry so far
18:49:50  <LordAro> mildly disappointing
18:49:50  <TrueBrain> one public one, they could also pm him, not? :D
18:49:50  <TrueBrain> but can't we make the game put the saved position in the center of the map?
18:50:21  <Wuzzy> don't laugh, I once played the full 100 years in Toyland. it's … okayish.
18:50:21  <TrueBrain> makes for easier title games, I would guess
18:50:21  <Wuzzy> the "real" climates are better 😛
18:50:30  <TrueBrain> there is nothing wrong with Toyland; there is something completely wrong with using it as title game
18:51:15  <LordAro> TrueBrain: maybe if i ever finish my "signs to move viewport" titlegame patch, i'll do that at the same time
18:51:15  <TrueBrain> ugh, I am dreading making this custom GUI widget .. it most likely will be fine, but .. ugh ... :P
18:51:30  <LordAro> define expansion direction with a sign in the top corner or something
18:52:00  <TrueBrain> I think if the center is always the center, many people can make awesome things
18:52:00  <LordAro> s/viewport "titlegame/titlegame viewport"/
18:52:00  <TrueBrain> that alone might just be sufficient
18:52:17  <LordAro> hmm, moving viewports makes titlegame competitions more difficult to judge :p
18:52:26  <TrueBrain> then again, most title games I really like
18:52:26  <TrueBrain> people are awesome in able to make those
18:52:43  <TrueBrain> in able? in their ability
18:52:43  <TrueBrain> what-ever
18:53:07  <TrueBrain> either way, LordAro ,, with linux-generic, something that we want? Something that we want to maintain?
18:53:59  <LordAro> it seems unnecessary for *us* to maintain something like that as well as linux-generic
18:54:36  <TrueBrain> yeah .. I don't mind if someone else does it
18:54:37  <TrueBrain> but the author doesn't want that
18:54:37  <TrueBrain> so I guess that settles it
18:55:11  <LordAro> it's no different from maintaining our own debian/rpm/whatever files
18:55:27  <LordAro> (which we did, but no longer)
18:55:38  <TrueBrain> yeah, exactly
18:55:44  <TrueBrain> if CPack can do it, I am fine with it
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19:02:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
19:02:02  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:02:52  <TrueBrain> mostly what annoys me, that this targets something that we already target in all kind of different ways, amd64
19:03:03  <TrueBrain> having arm builds etc, now that would be worth considering to me
19:03:22  *** SmatZ has joined #openttd
19:03:30  <TrueBrain> meh, I should stop trying to deny what I already know .. we shouldn't do this, not now :D
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19:05:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8329: Build AppImage
19:05:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8329: Build AppImage
19:05:44  <TrueBrain> sometimes it is hard to say goodbye :P
19:05:49  <TrueBrain> tnx LordAro
19:09:30  <TrueBrain> <- is this an issue, adding currency? Do we have a policy on that? Or is it just: sure, what-ever?
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19:10:42  <LordAro> go for it
19:10:51  <TrueBrain> it is off by 3 magnitudes
19:10:53  <TrueBrain> does it matter?
19:10:56  <TrueBrain> guess it will feel cheap
19:11:45  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:11:59  <LordAro> could put 'k Rp' ? :p
19:12:15  <TrueBrain> would anyone understand that, I wonder
19:12:20  <LordAro> also the various issues with that pr - removing the comment, editing indonesian
19:12:21  <LordAro> etc
19:12:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no idea
19:12:43  <TrueBrain> yeah, I was about to fix those
19:13:55  * andythenorth amused by how many adblocker ads I'm seeing
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19:14:02  <andythenorth> surprised Google AdSense doesn't ban them :P
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19:17:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8616: Add: Currency:  Indonesian Rupiah (IDR)
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19:18:23  <nielsm> is there any reason currencies couldn't be a config file?
19:18:48  <TrueBrain> pretty sure the answer is: because nobody wrote that :)
19:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> @nielsm well, there's the custom currency setting
19:19:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8616: Add: Currency:  Indonesian Rupiah (IDR)
19:19:56  <frosch123> the idea to remove all built-in currencies is as old as removing all built-in townnames :)
19:20:58  <TrueBrain> ideas we have plenty :)
19:20:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: does your mapgen gui rewrite include a preview?
19:21:27  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmm ... not sure that would technically be possible
19:21:27  <TrueBrain> but otherwise: fuck yes
19:21:29  <TrueBrain> preview for scenarios and heightmaps too, tbfh
19:21:33  <frosch123> it's possible for height + water + snow
19:21:59  <frosch123> the rest takes too long, and uses too much global state
19:21:59  <TrueBrain> well, generating the landscape alone on a 4kx4k is taking a few seconds
19:22:06  <frosch123> it's already in a thread
19:22:13  <TrueBrain> fair
19:22:16  <TrueBrain> "Loading preview ..."
19:22:29  <TrueBrain> and it doesn't have to block the UI, as it isn't showing the landscape
19:22:41  <TrueBrain> which is an issue the normal generation has, and why especially the beginning is laggy as fuck
19:23:03  <frosch123> i also dremed of highlighting areas with > 5 consecutive slopetiles
19:23:04  <TrueBrain> many ideas to improve that, but .. time is a resource that is in demand :P
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19:23:23  <frosch123> so you can see when the roughness / heighmap contrast exceeds the ottd limit of 1 height difference between tiles
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19:24:41  <TrueBrain> but v1 for me would be to just simplify that GUI, and extend from there
19:24:47  <TrueBrain> as there are so many things to try and toy with :D
19:24:56  <frosch123> v1 for me was to merge the three mapgen guis we have :p
19:25:17  <TrueBrain> well, I would just make a 4th and replace the others with it :P
19:26:34  <frosch123> oh, my other motivation was to remove half of the button in the intro gui
19:26:44  <TrueBrain> yes
19:26:53  <TrueBrain> although it would lose its iconic look&feel, I am afraid
19:27:30  <frosch123> yeah, it would look like factorio
19:27:30  <TrueBrain> I mean, no clue why you can pick climate on the intro screen
19:27:30  <TrueBrain> but it looks nice
19:27:50  <frosch123> well, i mostly meant moving ai/gs/newgrf settings as buttons into the mapgen gui
19:27:53  <TrueBrain> might just keep it without having them clickable :P
19:28:14  <TrueBrain> yeah, and remove play scenario/heightmap
19:28:14  <TrueBrain> as that UX is just terrible
19:28:18  <TrueBrain> how often I clicked New Game, to find out I cannot start a scenario from there
19:28:18  <TrueBrain> ugh
19:28:20  <frosch123> and to move the start server into the main gui, to rename the multiplayer gui to "join multiplayer" or something
19:28:32  <TrueBrain> I think we are aligned on this :D
19:29:02  <TrueBrain> and rename "Check Online Content" to anything not having the word "Check" in it
19:29:06  <frosch123> oh, i even made a mock-up last year
19:29:21  <TrueBrain> as I cannot understand it still reads "Check"
19:29:21  <TrueBrain> link? :D
19:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what about a "quick start" button prominently placed near the main menu climate selectors? (that's currently hidden as ctrl+click on newgame)
19:30:51  <TrueBrain> I do not see a need for a "quick" start
19:30:59  <TrueBrain> it is not like you are QUICK QUICK I NEED AN OPENTTD GAME NOWWW
19:31:07  <TrueBrain> what would be the usecase for you?
19:32:12  <_dp_> while on ui topic, can someone please move newgrf download to a server join button? ;)
19:32:12  <_dp_> and not some weird place that half of players don't even understand :p
19:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> for me personally? testing something. but that shouldn't be the basis of any decision
19:32:21  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I think we should make the intro screen simpler
19:32:33  <TrueBrain> personally, I start openttd with -g -G0
19:32:37  <TrueBrain> to get the exact same map every time
19:32:44  <TrueBrain> but I think we shouldn't make that into a button :D
19:33:06  <TrueBrain> and I am perfectly fine with having people click 2 or 3 times to start a new game, honestly
19:33:51  <frosch123> TrueBrain:
19:34:03  <frosch123> at the top the current windows
19:34:13  <frosch123> the left 3 are intended to be merged into one
19:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i was just asking, because a) the climate selectors on the main menu are mostly decorative, and remnants from the previous main menu layout. and b) because, like i said, it's not a new feature, just a hidden feature
19:34:31  <frosch123> the black horizontal lines represent some kind of tabbox or similar
19:34:33  <TrueBrain> well, I want to be a bit more drastic than that frosch123 :D
19:34:54  <TrueBrain> I think we should remove "max height" from that menu completely, for example
19:34:56  <TrueBrain> just move it to a setting
19:34:58  <frosch123> at the bottom you have buttons to open the settings tree in different filter variations
19:35:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that would be "more map settings" in that mock-up
19:35:46  <frosch123> it also included the other settings, which cannot be changed during a game
19:35:46  <frosch123> like driving-side, or tree-generator, ...
19:36:24  <andythenorth> _dp_ and call them mods or DLC while we're here?
19:36:24  <TrueBrain> and as I wrote in the thread, I think we need a preset system, to guide players more
19:36:24  <frosch123> as usual, i dropped the scenario editor under the carpet
19:36:24  <TrueBrain> but yeah, on one thing we fully agree: less things in that window :D
19:36:24  <frosch123> starting the SE is super weird
19:36:50  <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh yes, another old idea: replace the climate buttons with a preset selection
19:37:17  <TrueBrain> I am going to miss those climate buttons in the intro
19:37:17  <_dp_> andythenorth, I'm on
19:37:17  <frosch123> preset would include climate + newgrf + some settings
19:37:17  <TrueBrain> presets including newgrfs
19:37:17  <TrueBrain> hmm
19:37:24  <TrueBrain> that is not a bad idea
19:37:24  <TrueBrain> just a tricky one
19:37:44  <TrueBrain> who would maintain the presets?
19:37:58  <frosch123> preset would be a shareable ini file, which sets the settings it wants to set (and leaves the rest unchanged) and also contains newgrf and gs
19:38:22  <frosch123> basically a "import + merge another openttd.cfg"
19:38:22  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: honestly, if it was up to me, I would even remove that hidden functionality :D Not a big fan of all this CTRL-does-something-else, without it really telling you :)
19:38:33  <TrueBrain> add presets to BaNaNaS you say :D
19:38:43  <frosch123> yes, but that is v2 :p
19:38:52  <TrueBrain> v1.6 :D
19:38:59  <TrueBrain> I like that idea really
19:39:08  <frosch123> :p
19:39:10  <TrueBrain> it is simple, elegant, and allows many more players to a whole new world of gameplay
19:39:14  <TrueBrain> and we can monitor what is popular
19:39:34  <frosch123> anyway, we cannot even display a random png in the gui :p
19:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: we should have loading screen hints like "Ctrl+Click on button <x> does <y>" :p
19:39:51  <TrueBrain> or just when you press CTRL things change
19:39:56  <TrueBrain> so you know it has an interaction
19:39:59  <supermop_Home_> i think we can lose the climate thumbnail buttons
19:40:01  <TrueBrain> but one problem at the time, honestly
19:40:13  <TrueBrain> supermop_Home_: but they are so iconic!
19:40:19  <supermop_Home_> unless they are used for a 'preset' for each climate
19:40:29  <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain yes, but
19:40:34  <TrueBrain> no buts
19:40:35  <TrueBrain> :P
19:40:35  <frosch123> the 4 climates would be the default presets
19:40:47  <TrueBrain> and clicking them starts a game?
19:41:07  <TrueBrain> (we talk about the intro screen, right?)
19:41:07  <supermop_Home_> i feel like if i click the temperate button it should just drop me into a 256x256 temperate game
19:41:10  <_dp_> btw, I like the intent to guide players more but mb you should start with a freaking tutorial! :p
19:41:13  <supermop_Home_> no other settings
19:41:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, intro screen
19:41:28  <TrueBrain> _dp_: feel free! >:D
19:41:35  <frosch123> _dp_: the android port links youtube videos as tutorial
19:41:45  <frosch123> _dp_: if you make good ones, i am +1 to adding links
19:41:52  <frosch123> but i do not know any good tutorial videos
19:42:15  <TrueBrain> it requires a lot of things .. someone with a good voice, someone who is good in recording, someone who is good in editing :)
19:42:17  <supermop_Home_> the arctic picture has a picture of snowy mountains. i click that, i want snowy mountains, no other fucking around
19:42:21  <TrueBrain> not undoable, plenty of people do it
19:42:28  <TrueBrain> but yeah, tutorial videos will be nice :)
19:42:32  <frosch123> TrueBrain: and someone who knows the game :p
19:42:34  <TrueBrain> hosting on YouTube, a bit less, but meh :)
19:42:57  <supermop_Home_> i don't mind voice stuff, but i don't like my own voice
19:43:03  <_dp_> if I even make one it will be for cmclient :p
19:43:15  <supermop_Home_> send me a professional mic set up and i'll do it tho
19:43:27  <supermop_Home_> start a OpenTTD podcast
19:43:33  <supermop_Home_> sell ads for mattresses
19:43:35  <TrueBrain> frosch123: btw, just to check, where did your Heightmap button go in the mockup?
19:44:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the black bars represent some kind of tabbox, i have not decided how to visually represent it
19:44:09  <supermop_Home_> height maps should be easier to play
19:44:12  <TrueBrain> owh, like that, I see
19:44:25  <TrueBrain> okay ... now I have to make a mockup to show what I have in mind I guess ... :P
19:44:34  <supermop_Home_> also, in SE, a button to just start playing the map
19:44:42  <frosch123> idea is: there is only one new-game gui. you have some basic settings at the top, then select random map/heightmap/flat (in se), and then the additional settings
19:45:16  <TrueBrain> the more I look at this, the more I am tempted to integrate BaNaNaS in those windows too
19:45:23  <TrueBrain> as in, heightmaps show what you have locally, but also show what is available globally
19:45:31  <TrueBrain> but it needs a rating system of some kind to be useful
19:45:45  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there is also no filebrowser in that gui
19:45:53  <frosch123> but integrating filebrowser + bananas would make sense
19:46:05  <frosch123> load from local disk, load from personal cloud storage, load from bananas, ...
19:46:11  <TrueBrain> basically, my goal would be to make the experience a bit more smooth
19:46:24  <TrueBrain> not as many buttons, options, secrets, ...
19:46:28  <TrueBrain> just clear and simple
19:47:01  <TrueBrain> and yes, this will result in some functionalities no longer being there
19:47:05  <supermop_Home_> i wonder what type of market a podcast would have
19:47:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: all the arcane stuff can move into the tree
19:47:44  <frosch123> it's a gui task, not a "rewrite the mapgen" task
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19:48:13  <supermop_Home_> "Every week, supermop does his best to summarize what was discussed on IRC, as far as he understands it..."
19:48:13  <frosch123> so, by definition it does not remove/change the behavior, it just hides things and shows others :p
19:48:41  <supermop_Home_> podcast content actually related to playing the game is bonus for paid subscribers only
19:49:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I meant things like: ctrl+click this will do that, and all those things :)
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19:50:32  <_dp_> :p
19:50:32  <TrueBrain> okay ... gimp .. lets see if I can do this ..
19:50:32  <frosch123> off, you may burn out if you touch that
19:50:39  <frosch123> try smaller steps :)
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19:51:38  <TrueBrain> that would make the job easier ;)
19:51:42  <TrueBrain> but not sure we talk about the same thing now :D
19:52:20  <frosch123> me neither. i did not follow the jump from mapgen gui to ctrl click
19:52:45  <TrueBrain> currently, the GUI is full of hidden features
19:52:46  <TrueBrain> like already mentioned, ctrl+click on newgame starts a map
19:52:46  <TrueBrain> without giving you the window
19:52:51  <TrueBrain> there are more of those .. lovely things
19:53:23  <frosch123> yes, the ctrl+click to start a game is something i would have silently dropped along the way
19:53:26  <andythenorth> the what now?
19:53:37  <andythenorth> every day is a school day
19:53:40  <frosch123> i don't know why anyone would start a game with the same settings so often they need a shortcut
19:53:40  <andythenorth> I'm still recovering from learning about signal dragging
19:53:51  <andythenorth> and statues
19:53:51  <frosch123> they better use the console commands for that
19:53:51  <_dp_> ctrl+click that just skips a dialog is not that bad
19:53:55  <andythenorth> now you've blown my mind again
19:54:17  <_dp_> it's much worse that half of the game is hidden behind some other ctrl-clicks
19:54:38  <andythenorth> software's gonna software :)
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19:54:39  <frosch123> anyway, all of you are blocking me from eating dinner for almost an hour now :/
19:54:57  <TrueBrain> enjoy frosch123
19:55:44  <andythenorth> I blame supermop_Home_
19:57:03  <supermop_Home_> i did say yesterday you can blame me
19:58:13  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ can you send me the PSD?  Unless you converted the palette to TTD Windows already?
19:58:27  <andythenorth> oh you did :)
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20:00:52  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ looks good to me, no extraneous pixels :)
20:01:23  <andythenorth> is hotel used in any other climates, or just arctic?
20:01:23  <andythenorth> newgrf wiki says not
20:02:44  <andythenorth> meh testing construction sprites for houses :(
20:02:44  <andythenorth> 'no'
20:04:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth opened pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
20:04:08  <andythenorth> Yolo ^ ?
20:06:43  *** ^Spike^ has quit IRC
20:07:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] azubieta commented on pull request #8329: Build AppImage
20:07:43  <LordAro> andythenorth: ingame comparison shots?
20:07:43  <LordAro> #lazy
20:08:11  <andythenorth> LordAro new one looks like
20:08:11  <andythenorth> old one looks like....ass
20:09:02  <TrueBrain> holy crap, GIMP and fonts are ugly as fuck
20:12:48  <supermop_Home_> andy i sent you updated png but not the new psd
20:12:48  <supermop_Home_> i can sent the fixed psd too
20:12:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro approved pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
20:13:12  <supermop_Home_> temperate hotel is the mid-rise with pool on the roof
20:13:26  <supermop_Home_> but i would like to replace that sprite too
20:13:39  <supermop_Home_> idk if there is a tropic hotel but i'd love to draw a Miami or Waikiki one
20:14:09  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ please send :)
20:14:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Eddi-z commented on pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
20:14:26  <andythenorth> rebase and merge or squash and merge?
20:15:40  <andythenorth> @LordAro there's a large docs/authoroverview.csv
20:15:42  <supermop_Home_> sent
20:15:59  <andythenorth> I don't know any more than that
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20:17:18  <TrueBrain> frosch123:
20:17:54  <TrueBrain> not sure I like this narrow form, but I had to try :)
20:18:02  <supermop_Home_> does it have to say mods?
20:18:15  <TrueBrain> it is way more understood than "online content"
20:18:36  <TrueBrain> Add-ons
20:18:36  <supermop_Home_> i know it's colloquial idiom, but seems a little dumbed down?
20:18:36  <TrueBrain> I am fine with what-ever, but currently it is just unclear
20:19:03  <TrueBrain> dumbed down is not bad
20:19:04  <TrueBrain> especially not for an intro menu
20:19:04  <supermop_Home_> i guess i don't have a better suggestion
20:19:39  <supermop_Home_> just reminds me of people who don't know about cars talking about cars
20:19:40  <TrueBrain> the window has a complete lack of good spacing btw, but that was not the point :D
20:19:40  <supermop_Home_> but i'm being elitist i guess
20:20:03  <TrueBrain> the biggest pitfall we face, is assuming we understand our user :D
20:20:18  <andythenorth> we don't understand our user
20:20:26  <andythenorth> nobody understands the user
20:21:02  <TrueBrain> so I tend to look at other games, and use that :)
20:21:02  <andythenorth> it's why user-centered design is a false idiom
20:21:02  <TrueBrain> in the assumption they had budget to figure out what users understand :P
20:21:11  <andythenorth> I just make what I want, and I am fairly stupid, so I generally have to make it simple
20:21:11  <andythenorth> seems to work
20:21:29  <andythenorth> oh...I test UI stuff people as well :P
20:21:49  <TrueBrain> with a menu this small, I would suggest to put it off center
20:21:50  <TrueBrain> so the title game can be more visible
20:21:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I like the minimalist view, and it would fit on my tiny iPhone when we do iOS
20:22:21  <TrueBrain> I just wish I had a bit of room to add which game you are continueing
20:22:21  <andythenorth> it violates every rule of touch UI otherwise, but at least it's narrow :)
20:22:37  <andythenorth> 'last played'
20:22:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: play in landscape
20:22:37  <andythenorth> 'continue'
20:22:55  <TrueBrain> I like those games that put below it what that game was
20:22:55  <TrueBrain> like "My-test-game.sav"
20:22:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: continue is weird because of singleplayer/multiplayer
20:22:55  <andythenorth> yes
20:22:55  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth how would you describe BR design philosophy
20:23:07  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ extremely detailed, and highly tested
20:23:07  <frosch123> i think i tried to group stuff into singleplayer and multiplayer
20:23:07  <andythenorth> except when it wasn't
20:23:42  <TrueBrain> I would put a spacer between Load game and Host game
20:23:43  <supermop_Home_> like clearly there was a  cohesive theory of design there
20:23:43  <TrueBrain> and between Online content and Exit
20:23:43  <andythenorth> Host game is less important than Join game
20:23:43  <supermop_Home_> but seems it was more 'for the love of the game' rather than for the users
20:23:57  <frosch123> anyway, you change so much, that i have no idea how the stuff behind the buttons would look like :p
20:23:57  <andythenorth> stats may show I'm wrong :P
20:23:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: well, I wouldn't mind if Continue game rejoins the last server
20:23:57  <TrueBrain> it just as to say so
20:24:40  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ hate the game, don't hate the players :)
20:24:40  <andythenorth> etc
20:24:40  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I understand :D I will fiddle with the other windows too
20:24:40  <TrueBrain> just GIMP is awful for this
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20:24:40  <TrueBrain> I guess I just switch to wireframes instead :)
20:24:55  <TrueBrain> ottdc bouncer is bouncing lovely today :)
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20:24:55  <TrueBrain> something is cycling
20:24:55  <andythenorth> TrueBrain one advantage of this linear layout it doesn't require any real design :)
20:25:18  <andythenorth> and it will do ok with scaling font, etc
20:25:18  <LordAro> 30 mins to go
20:25:18  <supermop_Home_> pretty sure a roll of steel doesn't care if the state owned monopoly locomotive pulling it has a livery that would totally kill it in design school
20:25:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: 25, not?
20:25:18  <supermop_Home_> but god it was beautiful
20:25:53  <LordAro> TrueBrain: nah, nasa tend to be pretty accurate about these things
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20:25:53  <andythenorth> do we squash and merge or rebase and merge?
20:25:57  <TrueBrain> hmm, 20:50 they told me ... :P
20:26:23  <TrueBrain> well, 5 minutes later is fine :D
20:26:39  <LordAro> i'm just going off :p
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20:26:57  <LordAro> andythenorth: "depends"
20:28:45  <andythenorth> day of week?  star sign? project? nature of commits?
20:28:45  <LordAro> nature of commits :p
20:28:45  <LordAro> if you want to keep all the commits, rebase
20:28:45  <LordAro> if you want only one, squash
20:28:45  <andythenorth> 1 only anyway
20:29:09  <LordAro> then it doesn't matter
20:29:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth merged pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
20:29:34  <LordAro> though squash (on GH) gives you opportunity to reword the commit
20:29:48  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth
20:30:22  <supermop_Home_> idk if that was user centric, and it probably was at least a little elitist
20:30:23  <supermop_Home_> but it was good
20:32:08  <andythenorth> £75 eh
20:32:24  <andythenorth> indulgent?
20:32:32  <supermop_Home_> i'm sure the real ones in binders are more
20:32:32  <supermop_Home_> i indulged
20:32:33  * andythenorth tempted
20:32:56  <supermop_Home_> worth it just for the plate of the HST
20:33:12  <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with UCD, it just got turned into a bit of a fetish, when to me it's just how you make a decent product
20:33:44  <andythenorth> but it leads to conversations like 'but how do you know, you are just the designer, surely in UCD the user is king?'
20:33:45  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i was most teasing
20:34:01  <andythenorth> :)
20:34:14  <supermop_Home_> but yeah, some times 'customer is always right' is wrong
20:34:33  <andythenorth> I suspect UCD is a bit of a campaigning thing, against a world of 'buyer centered design' or 'manager centered design'
20:34:38  <andythenorth> or 'grant donor centered design'
20:34:43  <supermop_Home_> haha
20:34:43  <TrueBrain> Factorio puts your last joined server on top of the menu, which is also funny
20:34:46  <TrueBrain> and makes it green
20:34:49  <TrueBrain> really clear from an UX perspective
20:35:10  <andythenorth> TrueBrain all buttons must be yellow, and same size
20:35:28  <supermop_Home_> in the past i have been tempted to buy a Rail Alphabet license as an indulgent
20:35:29  <andythenorth> to give no gestalt weighting and no visual clues to importance
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20:36:24  <supermop_Home_> hi planetmaker
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20:39:50  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i'd pay dearly for a Rail Express Systems brand standards binder
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20:41:47  <TrueBrain> <- wireframe can be a bit tricky to translate to how it would look&feel in OpenTTD
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20:42:53  <supermop_Home_> or a 43 in RES livery
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20:44:24  <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain i love it
20:44:31  <supermop_Home_> love merging the settings
20:45:27  <supermop_Home_> maybe a border around new game and the 4 buttons, to make it clear that those are associated
20:45:27  <supermop_Home_> ?
20:45:34  <supermop_Home_> like little 1-2 px line
20:46:37  <supermop_Home_> i like where you put the whitespaces to group
20:46:52  <supermop_Home_> maybe thin separator lines could go in there too
20:46:58  <supermop_Home_> probably not needed
20:47:16  <LordAro> TrueBrain: what is this supposed to be for?
20:47:17  <TrueBrain> these details we have to work out if we make it into the game
20:47:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: an alternative intro GUI for OpenTTD
20:47:37  <LordAro> seems very tall and thinm
20:47:40  <LordAro> ?
20:47:43  <supermop_Home_> the aspect ratio is a bit odd
20:47:58  <supermop_Home_> will make title games look weird
20:48:44  <supermop_Home_> unless it defaults to being off-center?
20:48:44  <TrueBrain> LordAro: earlier picture to get an idea of how that looks ingame, but yes, it is a different approach from the fat solution we have now :)
20:48:44  <TrueBrain> supermop_Home_: not sure what you mean
20:49:07  <TrueBrain> but this is not meant to show pixels; just to give an idea of workflow, where buttons go and information is
20:49:07  <supermop_Home_> i think it works well functionally though, as in clear to understand what each area does
20:49:38  <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain unsure what i mean about the shape, or about lines?
20:50:08  <TrueBrain> about aspect ratio
20:50:08  <supermop_Home_> oh just that it is un familiar
20:50:08  <supermop_Home_> being tall and thin
20:50:18  <TrueBrain> owh, like that
20:50:33  <TrueBrain> and yes, I would suggest we put it off-center
20:50:33  <TrueBrain> to the left
20:50:33  <TrueBrain> like 30% or something
20:50:35  <TrueBrain> so the title screen has more room to shine
20:50:58  <TrueBrain> or to the right .. I don't really care honestly :D
20:50:59  <supermop_Home_> and title screen games at least subconsciously are built around a squarish void in the center of more boring stuff where the menu goes
20:51:21  <supermop_Home_> off-center to the side might encourage different approaches to framing a title game
20:51:35  <FLHerne> supermop_Home_: Is that true? "the centre" already depends on window size
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20:51:55  <supermop_Home_> FLHerne i think it is subconscious
20:51:59  <FLHerne> (there were already problems with titlegames that looked stupid on a 4k display because everything was in the corner)
20:52:25  <supermop_Home_> the standard one, and the tto one both have a body of water in the middle
20:52:51  <supermop_Home_> and about half the contest submissions seem to trend toward this
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20:54:29  <supermop_Home_> in the contest voting at least, the menu is usually shown i think? so the submission that gets the most votes might be influenced by how well it fits around the menu
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20:57:06  <TrueBrain> LordAro: without video feed from what is going on on Mars, this is rather boring :P
20:57:21  <TrueBrain> "the numbers say ..." :P
20:57:32  <TrueBrain> feels like a spreadsheet game :D
20:58:05  <LordAro> well at least it's actual data, rather than a simulation
20:59:52  <TrueBrain> :D
21:00:07  <TrueBrain> its fake anyway :P
21:00:41  <LordAro> there you go, picture
21:00:41  <LordAro> what more could you want
21:01:56  <TrueBrain> w00p
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21:12:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123:
21:12:38  <TrueBrain> it needs more thinking on some parts, but as I said .. I was thinking more minimalistic :D
21:14:02  <TrueBrain> especially scenarios, I think that can be done better
21:14:35  <andythenorth> installable presets :P
21:14:35  <andythenorth> preset grfs :P
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21:15:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: climates have to be part of presets. whatever a preset defines, it will depend strongly on climate
21:16:23  <TrueBrain> yeah, I forgot to write down: climates filter the presets
21:16:24  <TrueBrain> was my thinking
21:16:24  <frosch123> i realy like the idea of having a scrollbar and selecting a preset by image
21:16:38  <TrueBrain> hmm, that would work too
21:16:38  <frosch123> like selecting the template when making slides
21:16:52  <andythenorth> it looks good to me so far
21:17:00  <TrueBrain> so that window should filter the presets
21:17:09  <frosch123> new game would be three things: select template from images, play or customize
21:17:09  <TrueBrain> I have an idea to mix local and remote stuff ..
21:17:23  <TrueBrain> frosch123: sorry, I don't follow that
21:17:35  <frosch123> if you want to filter presets, than with a textbox :)
21:17:45  <_dp_> TrueBrain, why is it titled 1.12.0-beta1? :p
21:18:23  <TrueBrain> to set expectations
21:19:03  <andythenorth> 2.0.0
21:19:03  <andythenorth> the 'break some eggs' edition
21:19:24  <frosch123> TrueBrain: currently you separate climate and mapsize from all other settings. i don't think that will work. those two settings are just an arbitrary selection of many settings. i would consider date more important than either of your two :p
21:19:30  <frosch123> so i suggest to show now settigns at all
21:19:36  <_dp_> pitchfork edition :p
21:19:51  <frosch123> just: select preset from an extensible list of 100+ presets
21:19:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: fair point
21:20:11  <frosch123> then play them directly, or select one and use it as base for customising your own preset
21:20:15  <TrueBrain> owh, that is smart
21:20:15  <TrueBrain> yyes
21:20:30  <andythenorth> grf
21:21:17  <TrueBrain> I guess it should be easy to filter presets
21:21:20  <TrueBrain> not only by name
21:21:24  <TrueBrain> but by stuff like map-size, etc
21:21:36  <frosch123> as a consequence. the "settings" button in the intro gui would only contian client settings, and possibly separated company settings. but no game settings
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21:21:56  <TrueBrain> yes
21:21:56  <TrueBrain> I like that :)
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21:24:10  <TrueBrain> <- I was thinking something like this to combine local and remote <anything>
21:24:22  <TrueBrain> so presets, scenarios, heightmaps, etc
21:24:57  <TrueBrain> by default, only show local
21:24:57  <TrueBrain> when you press a button, it sends the query out to remote
21:24:57  <TrueBrain> (and adds the entries when found, and removes the button)
21:28:01  <frosch123> when you edit the image the next time, fix the typo :p
21:28:54  <TrueBrain> :D
21:30:42  <TrueBrain> updated with a new iteration
21:32:50  <TrueBrain> I think that reflects what you mentioned frosch123 :D
21:33:46  <TrueBrain> AI settings and stuff would be in Preset Configure
21:34:00  <TrueBrain> not sure that it needs their own window, or if it can just be in the list of other things
21:35:46  <frosch123> in my mind there would be 1000 presets, so where you put a combobox i would put a searchbox. but those details do not matter now
21:35:52  <frosch123> so, yes, looks good to me
21:36:04  <TrueBrain> combobox? :P
21:36:11  <frosch123> dropdown
21:36:14  <TrueBrain> ah :D
21:36:20  <TrueBrain> yeah, it will be a rich dropdown
21:36:23  <TrueBrain> not the default one
21:36:26  <TrueBrain> maybe a new window would be clear
21:36:32  <TrueBrain> but either way, per line an image and metadata of the preset
21:36:34  <TrueBrain> is my thinking
21:36:45  <TrueBrain> and yes, filters .. I have an idea for that too :P
21:36:49  <TrueBrain> scoping is becoming an issue
21:37:03  <frosch123> yep, i thought "only image" at first, but putting it in a row, with some text is way better
21:37:17  <frosch123> no scoping, just text filter
21:37:35  <TrueBrain> sorry, I meant scoping of this change :P As this touches a lot of things now :D
21:38:02  <frosch123> ah, well there are a lot of things which our "engine" does not support currently
21:38:03  <TrueBrain> and we have to code presets ..
21:38:24  <frosch123> putting all settings into the tree is already a big task
21:38:43  <TrueBrain> yeah, and change BaNaNaS for it
21:38:44  <frosch123> currently it has most, but it does not support all types of settings
21:38:46  <TrueBrain> come up with a format ... :P
21:38:54  <TrueBrain> but okay, we have a year for this
21:38:57  <frosch123> and then the second big thing would be displaying png from disk
21:39:06  <frosch123> which becomes very interesting with 8bpp blitters :p
21:39:29  <TrueBrain> when OpenGL lands, we have to seriously ask ourselves if we want to keep 8bpp blitters, honestly :)
21:39:35  <TrueBrain> but yeah, with them, interesting issue
21:40:42  <frosch123> yep, you have to kill 8bpp blitters to advance with showing all kind of previews
21:40:50  <andythenorth> are they still used?
21:40:50  <andythenorth> anonymous telemetry anyone? :P
21:41:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: 8bpp is default for windows in fullscreen, for linux in both windowed and fullscreen
21:42:00  <frosch123> just osx broke it compeltely years ago, so we force 32bpp on osx
21:42:00  <TrueBrain> and they are also faster on some platforms
21:42:06  <TrueBrain> but ... we cannot live in 1994 all the time
21:42:16  <frosch123> without opengl 8bpp is faster on all platforms :p
21:42:17  <supermop_Home_> but i wanna!
21:42:17  <andythenorth> every day, a school day
21:42:45  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ not sure I'd pick 1994-1996 as my optimum years
21:42:45  <TrueBrain> I am really in favour of saying: sorry, on that machine, you can only run OpenTTD up till 1.10
21:42:45  <frosch123> the OS were always better at converting 8bpp to screen than we were
21:42:45  <supermop_Home_> i want to play ascendancy
21:42:52  <andythenorth> probably the least fun part of my life, although also the most illegal drugs
21:43:19  <supermop_Home_> i am bit younger,
21:43:19  <supermop_Home_> i'd say 98 was maybe more fun
21:43:34  <andythenorth> I'd pick 98-01
21:43:34  <supermop_Home_> but in 94 i got a lego police station for my birthday
21:43:48  <frosch123> 98 was the best year for computer games
21:43:49  <frosch123> halflife and starcraft
21:43:49  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the main question is, where do we take it from here ... do we work out the windows in great detail
21:43:49  <TrueBrain> or do we just start working on it, see where it ends
21:44:09  <andythenorth> Doom was 93
21:44:10  <andythenorth> and TTD and Railroad Tycoon 2 were nearby
21:44:10  <frosch123> TrueBrain: small steps
21:44:10  <supermop_Home_> and played a bunch of ascendancy, myst, SC2000
21:44:34  <frosch123> there were 3 earlier attempts at the mapgen gui, they all failed
21:44:46  <supermop_Home_> i got tto in 95, as after TTD came out, best buy had tto in a bargain bin for 
21:44:54  <frosch123> if you change everything at once, you will forget something, and make people upset
21:44:54  <supermop_Home_> best  i ever spent
21:44:54  <andythenorth> 97 was a weird year
21:44:54  <supermop_Home_> or worst
21:45:09  <TrueBrain> I am tempted to hardcode a few presets and otherwise make the UIs first
21:45:16  <frosch123> to take my recent the "move townnames to mapgen" as example
21:45:22  <supermop_Home_> as tto showed me the capsule tower, which got me into weird modular architecture
21:45:22  <andythenorth> in 1997 I was in Amsterdam, in a bar...doing what you do in Amsterdam
21:45:28  <frosch123> i technically made it very inconvenient to define townnames in scenario editor
21:45:36  <andythenorth> then the entire 3 racks of glass bar shelving with all the spirits spontaneously fell down
21:45:43  <andythenorth> which was very freaky
21:45:46  <frosch123> because creating a new scenario is completely weird...
21:46:01  <andythenorth> then we went out on the street..and there were trams...fricking everywhere :P
21:46:03  <andythenorth> like mad cows
21:46:06  <supermop_Home_> if i never played tto maybe i would have chosen a reasonable career and not wasted so much $ going to design school
21:47:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i see at least two changes, which are useful even without those new guis in mind
21:47:12  <TrueBrain> do tell?
21:47:12  <supermop_Home_> in 97 i was in middle school in yorkshire
21:47:44  <frosch123> making sure that the tree contains all settings is useful for the "show settings different than default" etc. (which was actually the initial reason to create the tree: to have everything in one place, and find stuff by filtering, instead of guessing the right category)
21:47:53  <supermop_Home_> learning the true meaning of the bullying based society that is an English boys school
21:48:01  <frosch123> but this part is already not easy :p
21:48:43  <TrueBrain> sorry, I do not follow what you mean there :)
21:48:46  <frosch123> a second and completely independent thing is showing loaded/generated bitmaps in-game: to show preview pngs from bananas tars, or heightmaps, or mapgen preview, ...
21:48:49  <supermop_Home_> somehow getting called out personally by the school chaplain for the US congress not signing on to the Kyoto protocol
21:49:06  <TrueBrain> a third is making an UI where local and remote content is integrated
21:49:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the settings tree currently does not contain all settings
21:49:16  <TrueBrain> we have plenty of those hidden "finding content online" buttons
21:49:21  <frosch123> some are only in "game options", some only in "mapgen"
21:49:27  <TrueBrain> ah, like that, yes
21:49:46  <TrueBrain> and I can mock a few new UI elements to see how that works
21:50:03  <frosch123> (and then there is the madness of transparency options, but noone figured that one out)
21:50:31  <TrueBrain> after that, we can mostly redo the UIs in this new idea
21:50:34  <TrueBrain> with some fixed presets
21:50:39  <TrueBrain> after that, local presets
21:50:42  <TrueBrain> followed by remote
21:50:44  <TrueBrain> doable
21:50:51  <frosch123> you forgot "finish opengl" somewhere on the road :p
21:51:01  <TrueBrain> well, first I am going to finish my 60fps PR
21:51:04  <TrueBrain> and hope someone dares to review it
21:52:33  <TrueBrain> Discord idea: make it possible you can change the presets on the intro yourself
21:52:39  <TrueBrain> "So most advanced players will eventually forget toyland even happened"
21:52:42  <TrueBrain> I dig that :)
21:52:51  <andythenorth> poor old toyland
21:52:56  <andythenorth> I think it should be kept :)
21:53:00  <andythenorth> it's a classic
21:53:11  <TrueBrain> frosch123: talking about 60fps PR, I need some advise .. the main gameloop is now the same for all drivers, with some minor bits and pieces different
21:53:19  <TrueBrain> I want to deduplicate that, as .. this makes little sense
21:53:19  <_dp_> most advanced players actually like toyland :p
21:53:25  <TrueBrain> but ... where to put that ...
21:53:32  <TrueBrain> openttd.cpp, consider it part of the MainLoop
21:53:35  <TrueBrain> or keep it in video_driver.hpp
21:53:39  <TrueBrain> it all feels a bit dirty
21:58:01  <frosch123> TrueBrain: src/video/base_v.cpp ?
21:58:27  <frosch123> we also have baseclasses for blitters, why not for video drivers?
21:59:31  <TrueBrain> owh, if that is true, yes, that is a good idea
21:59:36  <frosch123> i think you wrote the blitter classes :p
21:59:36  <TrueBrain> I remember vaguely something like that, yes :P
22:01:01  <TrueBrain> okay, yes, that would work
22:01:08  <TrueBrain> means I don't have to copy/paste everything every single time
22:01:15  <TrueBrain> it became a bit silly :D
22:05:01  <andythenorth> sometimes I am so glad that I automated so much of my grf compiles
22:05:09  <andythenorth> :P
22:05:33  <andythenorth> doesn't always seem that way when writing it, or when the magic goes wrong
22:06:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am disappointed you didn't write 0.00% :P It is important to be exact!
22:09:32  <andythenorth> is this train done yet?
22:09:47  *** nielsm has quit IRC
22:10:53  <TrueBrain> <- can you guess when I had a job and when I did not had a job? :D
22:11:47  <andythenorth> I happen to be playing exactly the correct 80s synth music for this visualisation
22:12:36  <andythenorth> now I want to do mine, but it's boring
22:13:29  <TrueBrain> you have been busy
22:14:25  <andythenorth> TB has more than me :o
22:14:29  <frosch123> i have no idea what those things show
22:14:48  <frosch123> but i guess that's not their purpose
22:14:48  <TrueBrain> activity graph in 3D
22:15:17  <TrueBrain> <- that graph there
22:15:28  <TrueBrain> but yeah, they could have  mentioned that :D
22:15:50  <frosch123> ah, weeks
22:16:12  <TrueBrain> yeah, I like the ideas for the new UI
22:16:19  <frosch123> i see no different between work days and weeked in my case :p
22:16:22  <TrueBrain> but first, I need to make a new UI element for game-speed
22:16:55  <TrueBrain> I know what I want, but I have to make it ....
22:17:04  <TrueBrain> something for this weekend, I guess :D
22:17:57  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: You found a bug in the OpenGL PR by fixing BoundingRect :) Code fails for any top-left that is not 0.
22:19:55  <TrueBrain> Haha
22:20:09  <TrueBrain> Nice :D
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22:21:17  <michi_cc> There's a bit which needs to be fed byte offsets, but was fed pixel offsets. Pixel 0 is of course also byte 0.
22:23:26  <andythenorth> michi_cc thanks for the macos improvements btw, it's so much better
22:23:27  <andythenorth> I can use full animation again
22:23:27  <andythenorth> and fast FFWD is so helpful for testing grf
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23:13:40  <andythenorth> bed!
23:13:40  <andythenorth> etc
23:13:40  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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23:41:40  <supermop_Home_> i am eagerly awaiting someone to complain on forum abt my hotel sprite
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23:46:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Industry production graph
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23:47:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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23:52:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
23:54:42  <_dp_> aren't there already some examples of hotkeys without widgets?
23:54:52  <_dp_> GHK_MODB_RAT_PREV_RAILTYPE = 1 << GHK_MOD_RAT_PREV_RAILTYPE is ugly af
23:55:38  <_dp_> and doesn't even need bitshifting, it's just an arbitrary constant
23:56:42  <LordAro> there's quite a few examples of bitshifting like that out there too
23:56:49  <LordAro> feel free to do your own review :)
23:56:59  <LordAro> it's going to get forgotten if you put it here :p
23:59:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
23:59:16  <_dp_> where is bitshifting? I only see some increments

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