Log for #openttd on 19th February 2021:
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00:00:04  <LordAro> i was thinking of the Order*Flags, because i touched them recently
00:00:19  <LordAro> though they're not doing any bitshifting of other enum values, i suppose
00:00:29  <TrueBrain> LordAro: tnx for review, and yeah, I will deduplicate before merging
00:00:40  <TrueBrain> This just became really silly
00:01:23  <LordAro> mm
00:03:58  <_dp_> and he checks hasbit and does clrbit without even using the result
00:04:03  <_dp_> can be just == ffs
00:04:22  <LordAro> review pls :)
00:04:44  <_dp_> tommorrow mb
00:05:42  <_dp_> also kinda hard to say what's the right approach here since openttd doesn't have widgeds and hotkeys mixed anywhere
00:05:42  <_dp_> cmclient has but I'm not very fond of it either
00:05:56  <_dp_> but it's for sure nicer
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00:14:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8665: Codechange: Apply coding style
00:14:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8665: Codechange: Apply coding style
00:14:48  <LordAro> FORCE MERGE
00:15:57  <glx> red buttons and confirmation checkbox :)
00:16:12  <TrueBrain> They are meant to be pressed
00:53:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:53:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:53:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:53:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:54:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:54:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:55:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
00:56:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
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08:56:15  <andythenorth> yo
08:56:43  <Xaroth> oy
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09:26:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
09:26:18  <TrueBrain> not the first time he makes us read: yes, ok, sure, done, fixed, ... :P :D
09:26:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
09:27:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8616: Add: Currency:  Indonesian Rupiah (IDR)
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09:31:55  <TrueBrain> now, how the fuck do I merge those video drivers .. they are slightly different enough for that to be tricky :P
09:39:43  <TrueBrain> LordAro: what would you prefer .. that I make a new PR out of merging the video drivers (given you already reviewed the 60fps PR), or that I attach it to that PR?
09:39:57  <TrueBrain> I was thinking of doing that in the PR already, but it is far less trivial than I expected :P
09:40:15  <TrueBrain> so just a sanity check :D
09:40:46  <andythenorth> I wish zsh ran at 60fps for tab auto-complete :P
09:40:58  <andythenorth> it's always just a bit behind, and slower than bash was
09:41:53  <LordAro> TrueBrain: maybe another PR indeed
09:42:30  <TrueBrain> the main issue is that we have 1 driver where the mainloop is unrolled ..
09:42:37  <TrueBrain> you already disliked that when the PR was there
09:42:40  <TrueBrain> and now I dislike it too :D
09:43:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
09:46:16  <andythenorth> \o/
09:46:37  <TrueBrain> let the issue rain in :P
09:47:33  <andythenorth> nightly builds when? :P
09:47:35  <andythenorth> 7pm?
09:47:44  <TrueBrain> 20:00 CE(S)T
09:47:49  <TrueBrain> you do your local math
09:47:55  <TrueBrain> in 9 hours, basically
09:49:17  <_dp_> so they're eveningly builds then? :p
09:51:28  <TrueBrain> I find all these small bugs
09:51:36  <TrueBrain> when you press shift in debug builds to fastforward
09:51:42  <TrueBrain> it always starts 1 tick after you pressed it
09:51:46  <TrueBrain> because .. weird control logic
09:56:46  <andythenorth> TB forum post maybe?
09:56:49  <andythenorth> I mean I could
09:56:57  <andythenorth> I am so winning at community relations currently
09:57:21  * andythenorth coffee
09:57:30  <TrueBrain> meh .. maybe after the nightly
09:57:40  <TrueBrain> oh-oh .. it seems I introduced a build-error with allegro
09:57:47  <TrueBrain> which is weird, as I am sure I fixed that one
09:58:06  <TrueBrain> clearly, I did not
09:58:33  <TrueBrain> oops .. seems I forgot to push :(
09:58:39  <LordAro> oh no
09:58:45  <TrueBrain> I will fix that in a sec :)
09:59:05  <TrueBrain> our CI is not building allegro :P
09:59:08  <TrueBrain> it is an easy fix
09:59:10  <TrueBrain> so I might as well do that
10:04:20  <TrueBrain> we add libsdl1.2 and libsdl2 as deps for the CI
10:04:25  <TrueBrain> but CMake only always picks either one
10:05:27  <TrueBrain> still no clue what to do with SDL1 honestly
10:06:31  <andythenorth> I can't decide if LC is mad or not
10:06:58  <andythenorth> yet another post of rambling bug reports mixed in with passive insults
10:07:09  <andythenorth> I tried testing some of the reported bugs, but I can't repro
10:07:13  <andythenorth> getting a bit old
10:07:22  <andythenorth> "yes I know I could just ignore"
10:07:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8694: Several fixes related to merging 60fps PR
10:07:44  <andythenorth> but there is a high chance of TGP being oddly broken...because TGP, so I have to check
10:07:49  <TrueBrain> I like that he couldn't win it on GitHub, so he went to the forums :)
10:08:09  <andythenorth> I don't like that instead of bug reports we get dummy spits
10:08:15  <andythenorth> but presented as bug reports
10:08:30  * LordAro goes looking for the drama
10:08:57  <Timberwolf> I think there is something in the "low snow levels / high maximum height" thing.
10:09:07  <TrueBrain> I like how he says "default settings", while clearly those are not default settings :D
10:10:05  <Timberwolf> It does appear to generater much flatter maps than temperate does for the same max height.
10:10:07  <TrueBrain> its cute how I tell him nobody understands what max-height does, and he goes on to proof he doesn't understand it
10:10:09  <andythenorth> I am generating maps comparing 1.10
10:10:14  <TrueBrain> it is just a horrible setting to have in that window :)
10:10:16  <_dp_> drama incoming...
10:10:19  <andythenorth> but the problem is that TGP is fucking mysterious
10:10:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl requested changes for pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
10:10:24  <_dp_> :p
10:10:25  <andythenorth> so I don't know what settings to test
10:10:37  <andythenorth> like...nothing works in any way I've ever understood
10:11:15  <Timberwolf> There's also a case when you have really high industry density and snowline/max heights at something like 11 and 12 respectively, all the snowy peaks will be taken by other industries before forests can be placed.
10:11:41  <TrueBrain> basically, in my opinion, max-height should be hidden in the settings as "expert"
10:11:46  <TrueBrain> and we should default it to 200 or something
10:12:00  <Timberwolf> But that's more of a, "well what did you expect?" situation.
10:12:01  <TrueBrain> as really, it does nothing people think it does, it is just so incredibly dumb
10:12:29  <LordAro> _dp_: ta :)
10:12:34  <andythenorth> we've flat-topped the mountains for certain combinations, compared to 1.11
10:12:34  <TrueBrain> max-height never INCREASES the amount of hills you get, but can only REDUCE the amount you get, basically .. I mean .. wuth? :P
10:12:35  <TrueBrain> it so pisses me off :D
10:12:53  <andythenorth> to be clear: I only what to know *which* eggs we've broken
10:13:07  <andythenorth> TGP has been a minor tyre fire for years
10:13:09  <TrueBrain> "Found Allegro: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ (found version "4.4.3") "
10:13:11  <TrueBrain> \o/
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10:26:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge approved pull request #8694: Several fixes related to merging 60fps PR
10:28:59  <andythenorth> shame we don't have a QA obsessive :)
10:29:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
10:29:29  <andythenorth> we could script the UI to generate terrains for wide combinations of settings, then save them as heighmap
10:29:37  <andythenorth> then use standard visual diff tools to compare
10:29:53  <andythenorth> then we'd be able to find significant 'regressions'
10:30:50  <andythenorth> I use 'regression' in scare quotes, because it's not clear (1) what TGP is quite supposed to do or (2) if it has ever done it :D
10:34:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8694: Several fixes related to merging 60fps PR
10:46:22  <TrueBrain> I wrote prozy
10:46:24  <TrueBrain> proza
10:46:27  <TrueBrain> now I am late :P
10:46:53  <TrueBrain> I thought it would be good to remove a bit of the fake news going on in that thread :)
10:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause> since when was fake news susceptible to good arguments? :p
10:51:54  <TrueBrain> that is also why I am not trying to tell LC that it is fake news :)
10:52:32  <TrueBrain> the goal should not always be to convince the person starting the fire, but instead convincing everyone around the fire they shouldn't be there :)
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10:56:00  <LordAro> it's always fun looking at TB's forum posts from a (actual physical) distance
10:56:06  <LordAro> the smileys just stand out :)
10:56:09  <TrueBrain> :D
10:56:35  <TrueBrain> I am rather known for that yes, and I refuse to change to become "normal" :P
10:56:51  <TrueBrain> I am rereading LCs posts, and I cannot believe how much he is misrepresenting what is going on :)
10:56:53  <LordAro> was not suggesting that there was anything wrong with it at all :p
10:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i think i see what you mean :)
10:58:16  <TrueBrain> I also cannot believe how many people reply in that thread without starting the game and building conclusions on it :)
10:58:29  <TrueBrain> "someone wrote this on the internet, IT MUST BE TRUE"
10:59:03  <TrueBrain> but lets see if we can make the thread a bit more constructive
10:59:04  <TrueBrain> who knows
10:59:14  <andythenorth> I mean people used to literally die from this shit
10:59:15  <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: "path-based signals are more computationally expensive"
10:59:24  <andythenorth> so at least we've moved civilisation on...right?
10:59:47  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: que? And that sentence is silly ... "I am taller!"
11:00:00  <TrueBrain> You are breathing more!
11:00:01  * andythenorth tried playing an unwinnable Warcraft 1 map
11:00:04  <TrueBrain> :D
11:00:19  <andythenorth> no archers, and 3 enemy knights turn up before I can build a barracks
11:00:23  <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: It's a Reddit/Discord thing, comes up a lot when people talk signalling.
11:00:32  <TrueBrain> yeah ... the unfounded bullshit people write
11:00:38  <TrueBrain> fake-news is not new
11:00:40  <TrueBrain> it now just has a name
11:00:51  <andythenorth> well it used to just be called propaganda
11:01:04  <andythenorth> or
11:01:27  <TrueBrain> right, I am off
11:01:51  <andythenorth> don't go TrueBrain !
11:01:56  <andythenorth> we will miss you!
11:02:20  * andythenorth procrastinating drawing pixels
11:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> fake news is probably as old as civilization itself
11:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably how religions form
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11:10:00  * andythenorth tests some more
11:10:16  <andythenorth> the problem is there are too many settings that have influence
11:10:40  <andythenorth> like...variety distribution will affect perceived flatness (or unflatness)
11:10:50  <andythenorth> amount of sea affects max height of hills / mountains
11:12:02  <_dp_> pbs are slow! I have a single pbs and it lags like crazy :P
11:12:21  <andythenorth> _dp_ drawing newgrf trains is slow :P
11:12:26  <andythenorth> andythenorth is slow!
11:12:29  <_dp_> no newgrfs :P
11:12:38  <andythenorth> no I mean, literally, drawing them, pixels :)
11:12:41  * andythenorth is just being a twat
11:12:58  <Timberwolf> I love the Dutch aphorisms, they're so often uncanny valley versions of the English ones.
11:13:08  <Timberwolf> e.g. "storm in a glass of water" vs. "storm in a teacup"
11:13:19  <andythenorth> we're practically Dutch
11:13:31  <andythenorth> apart from the Viking and Celtic parts
11:13:52  <andythenorth> more trade across the North Sea than within England, historically
11:13:57  <andythenorth> or something
11:14:05  * andythenorth says things on the internet that might not be true
11:16:38  * andythenorth watching
11:16:44  <_dp_> find the pbs xD
11:17:25  <LordAro> oh my
11:17:46  <LordAro> NE middle
11:19:01  <andythenorth> _dp_ you are madder than me even
11:19:05  <andythenorth> what a world
11:20:24  <_dp_> it's kinda fun to watch xD
11:20:41  <andythenorth> it's like primitive life!
11:20:46  <andythenorth> you should YouTube that
11:21:04  <LordAro> :D
11:21:45  <Xaroth> Something something 2k x 2k map with this
11:22:06  <andythenorth> teach a GS to build them
11:22:08  <andythenorth> or an AI
11:22:19  <Xaroth> or... use a copy/paste patch :P
11:23:09  <andythenorth>
11:23:23  <_dp_> Xaroth, and how do you think I ended up building that?
11:23:34  <_dp_> I was testing copy-paste patch :p
11:23:53  <Xaroth> go big or go home then :D
11:24:16  <_dp_> buying all the vehicles was a pita though
11:24:40  <_dp_> also untill I think of a way to make them chose more interesting paths going bigger is kinda pointless
11:27:39  <andythenorth> custom orders patch
11:27:51  <andythenorth> give each train preferences
11:28:13  <andythenorth> 'try to turn left' etc
11:28:40  <andythenorth> generative art in OpenTTD
11:28:53  <andythenorth> then we can do an art show!
11:28:58  <Xaroth> Ideally you'd want to place down a few dozen stations spaced apart, then have each train different orders
11:29:06  <andythenorth> generative patterns, Iron Horse Train Whack trading cards
11:29:11  <Xaroth> (i.e. different order of stations)
11:29:12  <andythenorth> and 3D printed vehicles
11:29:32  <andythenorth> we can get a gallery show
11:37:24  <_dp_> pathfinder totally freaks out on such map
11:37:28  <_dp_>
11:41:07  <_dp_> first train reserved THAT but then decided fuck it and went to kill itself xD
11:42:20  <andythenorth> ha
11:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> trains can't kill themselves. need a minimum of 2 trains
11:45:51  <_dp_> well, it found some lost soul to crash into :p
11:47:40  <_dp_> the fact that it actually went off the reserved path is the most curious
11:48:28  <Xaroth> Maybe he got scared from all the crossings and decided to seek shelter with his buddy train?
11:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> somethingsomething stalereservation something notreversing something
12:05:27  <andythenorth> drawing certain train liveries is is soooo boring :)
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12:14:33  <andythenorth> did someone want a livery feature?
12:14:37  <andythenorth> could we...not?
12:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> we already have multiple livery features
12:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you asked for at least 3 more :p
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12:30:52  <andythenorth> 'livery'
12:31:09  <andythenorth> I think ctrl-click remains my favourite
12:31:17  <andythenorth> we should make it increment a byte
12:31:33  <andythenorth> designing GUIs is hard :P
12:31:43  <andythenorth> ctrl-click is easy
12:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you know this is a case of
12:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (aside from all the other reasons why ctrl+click is a bad idea)
12:34:06  <andythenorth> I suspect you're correct
12:34:28  <andythenorth> but sometimes being wrong offers more learning potential
12:35:09  <andythenorth> I would patch ctrl-click myself, but I give a low chance that I can correctly migrate the existing bool in savegames
12:35:47  <andythenorth> there's probably some elegant bit maths way to do that, which I would never think of
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12:51:51  <NGC3982> uhm
12:52:31  <NGC3982> im pretty sure the last episode of the tv show 'the young doctos notebook' uses a train whistle sample that is - if not the same - extremely similar to the new-train-started sample in openttd
12:52:36  <NGC3982> it's uncanny
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13:12:39  <andythenorth> might be from
13:12:50  <andythenorth> we all used that in the 90s / early 2000s
13:13:09  <andythenorth> I used it for Flash games a lot, but it shows up in other games and I think it's in KLF songs as well
13:14:00  <andythenorth> no steam train though
13:15:18  <andythenorth> there were a few other effects CD compilations :)
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14:14:36  * andythenorth diligently painting pixels
14:17:33  <Samu> you no longer seem to care about coding style?
14:21:12  <Timberwolf> One of the YouTube series my OH watches keeps using the same sound sample as Total Annihilation did for "unit under attack".
14:22:14  <Timberwolf> I'm not sure I like spending my day with the mild underlying tension that somewhere a single AI kbot is boldy attacking a metal extractor I built an hour ago and forgot about.
14:25:13  <Samu> static bool NameSorter(const ObjectClass *const& a, const ObjectClass *const& b)
14:25:17  <Samu> isn't this style wrong?
14:25:47  <LordAro> technically yes
14:25:55  <LordAro> but it's 4 misplaced spaces
14:25:59  <LordAro> it's not the worst thing in the world
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14:28:28  <glx> finally trying to add msys2/mingw to CI
14:28:38  <Samu> static bool NameSorter(const ObjectClass * const &a, const ObjectClass * const &b)
14:28:44  <glx> will be a long trial and error
14:33:23  <andythenorth> time for Horse release?
14:38:10  <Samu> what's the correct style for this? typedef GUIList<const ObjectClass *, StringFilter &> GUIObjectClassList;
14:38:29  <Samu> or typedef GUIList<const ObjectClass*, StringFilter&> GUIObjectClassList;
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14:47:14  <Xaroth> Timberwolf: I have the same with all kinds of sound samples.. like slack/discord notifications
14:47:40  <Xaroth> and don't get me started on the EVE hull alarm.. that still freaks me out
14:52:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8693:  Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
15:07:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8695: Codechange: Apply coding style
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15:12:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time
15:18:01  <andythenorth> ^ interesting idea
15:20:14  <nielsm> yeah I tried hacking that in once but gave up
15:20:25  <nielsm> but it'll be useful for debugging newgrfs and stuff
15:25:55  <_dp_> oh, I have that in cmclient :p
15:27:26  <_dp_>
15:27:34  <_dp_> quite a hacky implementation though
15:29:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time
15:32:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time
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16:13:31  <Wuzzy> Can someone please review this OpenSFX PR?:
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16:31:36  <supermop_Home> yo
16:32:43  <andythenorth> yo!
16:33:16  <supermop_Home> awaiting hotel sprite pitchforks
16:36:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes
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17:36:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes
17:37:27  <glx> wow mouse is fast in debug build now
17:40:44  <LordAro> :D
17:42:02  <glx> and it seems openttd fails to build for 32bit mingw
17:42:29  <glx>
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17:59:21  <LordAro> glx: those are some weird error messages
17:59:35  <glx> yeah, I need to try locally
17:59:51  <glx> but at least I now why it fails only for 32 bit
18:00:01  <glx> it's in #if defined(__MINGW32__) && !defined(__MINGW64__)
18:00:11  <LordAro> ah, lol
18:00:39  <glx> need to search why we did that though
18:00:52  <glx> maybe it was a missing define at some point
18:00:57  <glx> in old mingw
18:03:33  <LordAro> maybe
18:08:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI
18:09:02  <glx> anyway these checks won't be required to merge
18:10:02  <glx> like VS2017, it will be a safety run and tell we broke something before someone notice it by "accident"
18:22:11  <TrueBrain> booooo, I checked map generation modal window, assuming it would also fix grf scanner ...
18:22:34  <TrueBrain> glx: so now we have 6 (!) Windows targets :P
18:22:45  <TrueBrain> it starts to feels a bit excessive :)
18:24:15  <glx> it's just testing with 3 different compilers (and 2 arch)
18:24:19  <TrueBrain> I have no problems approving it once you fixed the errors btw :)
18:24:27  <TrueBrain> "just" testing a 3x2
18:24:33  <TrueBrain> I love how you used the word "just" there :D
18:25:17  <glx> I could add clang on MSVC too ;)
18:25:34  <glx> but not really used
18:28:25  <TrueBrain> I still would like to add an sdl1 target
18:28:32  <TrueBrain> but that is tricky without a lot of copy/paste
18:28:49  <glx> you can add it to the matrix
18:28:59  <TrueBrain> not easily
18:29:04  <TrueBrain> as it needs to install a different dependency
18:29:18  <TrueBrain> if you have a good idea, I am all ears :)
18:29:43  <glx> that's easy, you put the dependency name in the matrix, and pass it to apt step
18:29:51  <TrueBrain> smart!
18:30:30  <glx> I use a similar trick with msys2
18:31:59  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> it starts to feels a bit excessive :) <- at least one or another should compile and run fine, not like some other os projects I tried where the only target (win32) did not even compile
18:33:42  <glx> ok the breaking define was added 14 years ago, I think it should be fine to remove it as it's now unneeded
18:37:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window
18:37:22  <dwfreed> yeah, you can have arbitrary things in your matrix in GH Actions
18:37:33  <TrueBrain> my PR makes all the "required" things break again :P
18:37:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window
18:38:20  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: there is a difference between knowing the capabilities of a system and thinking of using it a certain way :)
18:38:23  <glx> oh of course
18:38:43  <glx> like I broke it when adding VS2017 to the matrix
18:38:44  <TrueBrain> glx: can you test my PR to see if I really fixed the issue? I don't have that many NewGRFs to really notice it :D
18:39:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes
18:39:28  <andythenorth> supermop_Home now we are going meta :)
18:44:49  <TrueBrain> Found SDL: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libSDLmain.a;/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/;-lpthread (found version "1.2.15")
18:44:52  <TrueBrain> w00p, that works :D
18:45:03  <glx> nice
18:45:14  <TrueBrain> yeah .. we now test all our video drivers again :)
18:45:18  <TrueBrain> which has value :P
18:45:48  <glx> well we don't test if driver works, but it should at least build ;)
18:48:53  <LordAro> we don't test if any of them work :p
18:51:14  <glx> hmm I removed the define, and now it fails to link on something unrelated (at least locally)
18:53:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Multitile depots
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18:56:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window
18:56:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes
18:56:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window
18:56:48  <TrueBrain> tnx glx !
18:57:13  <TrueBrain> very happy bugs are reported before the first nightly
18:57:16  <TrueBrain> that is just \o/
18:57:22  <andythenorth> :)
18:57:24  <TrueBrain> I disabled the Linux CI targets for now as required, and enabled the VS2017
18:57:32  <TrueBrain> possibly we need some more forcing
18:57:41  <TrueBrain> might as well add the new linux ones as required
18:57:51  <glx> I intentionnaly not enable VS2017 :)
18:58:03  <glx> 2019 should be enough to validate
18:58:11  <TrueBrain> if you run it, make it required, tbfh
18:58:15  <TrueBrain> otherwise people will miss it failing :)
18:58:31  <TrueBrain> what is the point in CIing something if you don't care about the result :P
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19:01:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
19:01:19  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:01:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8693:  Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
19:02:56  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I just rebased OpenGL and now I have to rebase and detangle again :P
19:03:15  <TrueBrain> :D
19:03:19  <TrueBrain> I promise you, it is not really a lot of work
19:03:27  <TrueBrain> but you can also wait till I finish my "merge video drivers" PR
19:03:35  <TrueBrain> as I will cherry-pick some OpenGL thingies in there already
19:03:41  <TrueBrain> mostly the draw_lock unlock/lock stuff :)
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19:03:56  <michi_cc> In that case I will glady wait :)
19:03:58  <TrueBrain> (I know it is not a lot of work, as I tested my changeset on top of the OpenGL branch :P)
19:04:01  <TrueBrain> :D
19:04:25  <TrueBrain> should be done tomorrow, so you don't even have to wait that long! :)
19:04:34  <TrueBrain> its silly how the same all video drivers are now
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19:04:40  <TrueBrain> for their main game loop
19:05:48  <andythenorth> crazy russian snow eating train
19:05:59  <TrueBrain> I just have to figure out a way to make it clean between all drivers, given SDL2 has a weird unrolled loop the others do not ..
19:06:03  <andythenorth> it conveyors the snow into the wagons behind
19:06:33  <andythenorth> supermop_Home see, the Arctic is Flat? :)
19:06:36  <andythenorth> oh wait...that's Texas
19:07:03  <TrueBrain> I love that "the thread" now derailed in MY ARCTIC IS FLAT
19:07:07  <TrueBrain> which is a nice change of pace :)
19:07:34  <andythenorth> I am intrigued why we don't have this climate
19:07:54  <_dp_> I always felt that subarctic is more like alpine despite the name
19:08:01  <_dp_> it's even called that way in code in some places
19:08:05  <TrueBrain> _dp_: that is because that was the intention :)
19:08:20  <TrueBrain> it needs from sea level to snow level
19:08:28  <_dp_> like snowline isn't even a thing in subarctic
19:08:32  <_dp_> permafrost is :p
19:08:48  <TrueBrain> so the solution is .. rename the climate!
19:08:52  <TrueBrain> I like your way of thinking :D
19:10:45  * andythenorth reading
19:11:01  <andythenorth> we lack a cfa / cfb / csb mediterranean / californian climate
19:11:35  <TrueBrain> its funny that it turns out, subarctic only has to do with the temp-range
19:11:37  <andythenorth> I always forget to call it subarctic, instead of arctic
19:11:40  <TrueBrain> not with type of landscape :P
19:11:42  <andythenorth> but I thought it was
19:11:52  <andythenorth> well the temp range affects the type of flora and fauna
19:12:11  <andythenorth> but not the topology so much
19:12:14  <andythenorth> so much
19:13:09  <TrueBrain> I was shocked, the nightly triggered close to its intended time
19:13:18  <andythenorth> anyway we could just bin it all off, invent 7 climates and super awesome presets for them
19:13:31  * _dp_ lives in subarctic 
19:13:37  <_dp_> or, well, close enough :p
19:13:44  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is one way of going, yes :)
19:13:50  <andythenorth> temperate, mediterranean, alpine (temperate green with snow), subarctic, subtropic, toyland, mars
19:13:53  <TrueBrain> but the game is a bit tight to the 4 climates
19:13:56  <TrueBrain> for some reason, basesets
19:13:58  <andythenorth> stuff and things :)
19:14:14  <andythenorth> yes, I do not volunteer to draw mediterranean :P
19:14:22  <TrueBrain> not sure if we can mix them :P
19:14:25  <andythenorth> alpine was already done, there are sets of green-snow tiles
19:14:45  <andythenorth> oh I forgot brickland
19:15:01  <TrueBrain> well, presets can force certain NewGRFs
19:15:08  <andythenorth> discord gravedug brickland today
19:15:08  <TrueBrain> so strictly seen, your idea can work just fine
19:15:17  <TrueBrain> if they can enforce a certain baseset, I guess
19:15:31  <andythenorth> brickland revival!
19:15:44  <TrueBrain> omg, I wrote brickland did I not?
19:15:50  <andythenorth> apparently
19:15:55  <TrueBrain> got really annoyed by all the people on the sidelines telling me what to do
19:15:57  <TrueBrain> I remember vague :)
19:16:09  <andythenorth> alpine
19:16:17  <andythenorth> lacks snow in that picture
19:16:26  <andythenorth> must be a variable snowline :)
19:16:37  <TrueBrain> I still want to make a legocad -> NewGRF tool
19:16:43  <TrueBrain> its just fun to design your own trains etc
19:16:50  <andythenorth> found some snow
19:16:57  <_dp_> yeah merge existing climates and split into new ones! :p
19:17:14  <_dp_> or, well, I guess toyland can stay xDD
19:17:16  <andythenorth> shard for different climates in same game
19:17:24  <andythenorth> go big!
19:17:28  <TrueBrain> with presets, I would think we get a bit more room to give people control over detailed settings in the terrain generator
19:17:39  <andythenorth> if we knew how it worked :)
19:17:46  <andythenorth> I patched it once
19:17:49  <andythenorth> was funny
19:17:58  <TrueBrain> which reminds me, tomorrow I will PR the removal of "max height"
19:18:21  <TrueBrain> and just fix it to some value like 240 or what-ever
19:18:36  <_dp_> funny fact - citymania has it's own max height setting
19:18:45  <_dp_> because apparently default one was not enough :p
19:18:46  <TrueBrain> or at the very least, remove it from the mapgen window
19:18:48  <TrueBrain> and to settings
19:18:52  <TrueBrain> as it is such an anti-setting
19:19:03  <TrueBrain> I just hate that it has nothing to do with the mapgen
19:19:07  <TrueBrain> its such bull
19:19:28  <LordAro> not worth trying to make it actually affect mapgen?
19:19:34  <LordAro> presumably that was the original intent
19:19:43  <TrueBrain> we can always reintroduce a new "max height"
19:19:55  <TrueBrain> but the current one already has a function, which is just bullshit to allow people to configure it :P
19:20:05  <TrueBrain> at least, I could not come up with any use-case
19:20:07  <TrueBrain> except for the very niche
19:20:11  <LordAro> yeah
19:20:34  <TrueBrain> what I would like to do, in presets, is allow a bit better tuning of height of mapgens, yes
19:20:39  <TrueBrain> instead of this fixed table we have now
19:20:42  <TrueBrain> depending on map-size
19:21:07  <TrueBrain> as that would actually mean we have a "height" setting that does what people expect
19:22:07  <TrueBrain> but yeah, possibly good to do that in 1 PR .. 1 commit removing the current bullshit
19:22:09  <TrueBrain> 1 to add a new setting
19:22:38  <TrueBrain> current problem is that it is a 2x2 table, depending on map-size and terrain type
19:22:45  <TrueBrain> meh .. will figure something out I am sure :)
19:23:37  <andythenorth> so it doesn't affect map max height? :O
19:23:42  <andythenorth> explains why it never worked for me
19:23:49  <TrueBrain> it does effect the MAP max height
19:23:52  <TrueBrain> just not the map GEN max height
19:23:57  <andythenorth> oh words
19:23:59  <andythenorth> are so subtle
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19:24:10  <andythenorth> this is winning
19:24:17  <andythenorth> I assumed I was using it wrong
19:24:22  <TrueBrain> this is what I have been telling people for weeks now .. NOBODY understand what it does
19:24:29  <TrueBrain> as what it does is bullshit
19:24:39  <TrueBrain> it caps the technical max height level of the game to that value
19:24:42  <TrueBrain> mapgen just does its thing
19:24:47  <TrueBrain> and if it tries to go above it, it flattens it
19:24:53  <andythenorth> you told me this before
19:24:55  <TrueBrain> yes
19:24:56  <TrueBrain> I did
19:25:00  <andythenorth> it was just so lolz my brain discarded it
19:25:01  <TrueBrain> with as much WTF?!?!?!?! as I do now
19:25:08  <TrueBrain> its balony
19:25:17  <TrueBrain> which made me giggle most this morning, as I say: nobody understand what the setting does
19:25:22  <TrueBrain> LC goes: WITH THIS WINDOW IT WILL BE CLEAR
19:25:26  <TrueBrain> showing he has no clue what it does
19:25:28  <TrueBrain> I cannot blame him
19:25:28  <andythenorth> I think you'll have to tell me a third time before I remember
19:25:33  <TrueBrain> but that arrogance is amuzing
19:25:47  <TrueBrain> if a dev tells you it doesn't do what anyone things .. take a hint :)
19:25:57  <andythenorth> but it will impose a max height, for small values?
19:25:59  <andythenorth> during gen?
19:26:03  <andythenorth> or is that also bullshit?
19:26:10  <TrueBrain> if you put it at 3, nothing will be above height level 3
19:26:17  <frosch123> oh wow, someone actually noticed the issue with town names in scenario editor :o
19:26:18  <TrueBrain> what mapgen would have done above it, would be flat
19:26:30  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yes; one of our only true scenario creators
19:26:33  <andythenorth> oh so that's the plateau maker :D
19:26:37  <TrueBrain> he asked me on Discord, I told him to make an issue
19:26:37  <frosch123> i was wondering whether anyone would notice, and then it takes only a few days
19:26:41  <TrueBrain> thought you could appreciate it :)
19:27:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, i was kind of aware of the issue. i just postponed it :)
19:27:09  <frosch123> so, sorry to him :)
19:27:12  <andythenorth> hmm
19:27:20  <andythenorth> so delete all the cargo_age_period crap from Iron Horse?
19:27:21  <TrueBrain> bewust onbewust, how we say in Dutch
19:27:22  <andythenorth> it does nothing
19:27:23  <TrueBrain> that is fine :)
19:27:39  <andythenorth> is that a savegame bump yes/no? /me wonders
19:28:53  <frosch123> is it hacktoberfest again?
19:29:17  <_dp_> btw, it's mildly annoying to retune terragen settings for all the game modes each time new version comes out >:D
19:29:33  <_dp_> though I guess I should just switch to custom terragens already
19:35:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you could try setting max_height after map generation to max-generated-height + something
19:35:22  <TrueBrain> what is the use? :)
19:35:25  <TrueBrain> why not just 240 or something
19:35:40  <frosch123> max_height is used to define relative heights
19:35:53  <frosch123> snowline to 70%
19:36:00  <frosch123> use a variable snowline height newgrf
19:36:03  <frosch123> like opengfx+landscape
19:36:13  <TrueBrain> snowline is an option, not?
19:36:22  <TrueBrain> anyway, for those values we can use the max-generated-height, sure
19:36:23  <frosch123> variable snowline height is defined as percentage of max height
19:36:33  <TrueBrain> so there are 2 snowline heights in the game?
19:36:40  <frosch123> no, 365
19:36:45  <TrueBrain> 2 variables :P
19:37:13  <andythenorth> 365 / 2?
19:37:18  * andythenorth pedant
19:37:50  <frosch123> oh, it's also used to save heightmaps
19:38:00  <frosch123> well, you can grep yourself
19:38:09  <frosch123> but i think removing it is not as easy as it sounds
19:38:21  <TrueBrain> as I mentioned, at the very least move it to settings, away from mapgen :)
19:38:29  <TrueBrain> if one fails, the next will have to do :P
19:39:09  <TrueBrain> and if that fails .. well .. something at least
19:39:14  <TrueBrain> just to start untangling this web :P
19:41:15  * andythenorth deleted cargo_age_period from everything except metro trains
19:41:16  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: as promised
19:41:26  <andythenorth> now to see if it has made any difference to my savegame
19:41:33  <andythenorth> (spoiler: it won't)
19:41:41  <andythenorth> TrueBrain \o/ :D
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19:43:51  <andythenorth> bye bye cargo again crap, and the need to maintain you :)
19:44:08  <andythenorth> and the player requests to show it in buy menu, even though it will DO BUGGER ALL IN MOST CASES
19:44:24  <andythenorth> another case of a thing that looks like it does a thing, in OpenTTD
19:44:31  <andythenorth> but does nothing like the thing at all
19:44:43  <andythenorth> why did I write 'again' not 'aging'
19:45:22  <andythenorth> there is no hope :D
19:46:40  <milek7_> >Well, at 60fps, I can hit a simulation rate of 9999.99 frames/sec (on an empty map, I know, cheating). It turns out, I found the upper-limit of the Framerate Window ...
19:47:07  <milek7_> eeh, it's not that you need these patches to hit 9999fps limit ;P
19:47:20  <frosch123> ottd speedrun?
19:48:06  <frosch123> is there something like ender pearls in ottd?
19:49:48  <nielsm> maintaining company rating 1000 for 5 years maybe
19:49:58  <andythenorth> lol, removing the cargo aging 'bonus', all modified trains now make more money
19:50:11  * andythenorth suspects confounding factors in the savegame :D
19:50:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yesterday someone should me people are speed running OpenTTD ... where FF is allowed
19:50:28  <TrueBrain> "winning" in 10 seconds
19:50:32  <TrueBrain> no clue what people are smoking
19:51:03  <nielsm> two years ago or something someone did post on tt-forums about speedrunning
19:51:06  <andythenorth> hmm if pax route has multiple transfers, removing cargo aging bonus means some vehicles get less transfer credit penalty?
19:51:13  <_dp_> frosch123, yes, sell the train after delivery and buy the new one near the pickup :p
19:51:15  <nielsm> and I told them that ffwd makes no sense in that context because it depends on machine speed
19:51:38  <andythenorth> speedruns now have different rules
19:51:41  <andythenorth> using some custom grf
19:52:35  <andythenorth> discord explained it to me :)
19:52:40  <andythenorth> but I forgot :)
19:53:59  <nielsm> why don't they use a GS that auto-pauses the game when the goal is reached and then shows the number of in-game days
19:54:43  <_dp_> nielsm, too much sense :p
19:54:54  <_dp_> add some more and you'll get citymania :p
19:55:12  <LordAro> _dp_: that strategy is only effective if you're an AI
19:55:20  <andythenorth> I think it's more of a Train Whack! style entertainment :)
19:55:24  <LordAro> too much work for an actual person beyond a couple of vehicles
19:55:31  <LordAro> rondje does it, iirc
19:56:02  <_dp_> LordAro, pfft, I've seen actual person juggling 6 trains on a single line with depots :p
19:56:08  <_dp_> selling train is nothing in comparison :P
19:56:36  <_dp_> or single track I guess that's called...
19:59:42  <_dp_> all to save a little bit of money on not doing passing loops
20:12:02  <andythenorth> so how do station ratings work? :)
20:12:03  <andythenorth>
20:12:31  <andythenorth> if I run a piglet vehicle constantly, AND autoreplace it aggressively, will I get max rating?
20:13:12  <andythenorth> newgrf vehicle with 1 year life?
20:13:50  <_dp_> aggressive autoreplace gives you +13%
20:13:53  <frosch123> it also needs to look fast
20:15:05  <frosch123> lol, player-written game-mechanics wiki are always silly
20:15:29  <andythenorth> so 255km/h?
20:15:33  <frosch123> i guess it's an approximation
20:15:34  <andythenorth> I never 100% trust the wiki
20:15:48  <andythenorth> what % is appropriate to trust wiki? :)
20:15:53  <frosch123> use a ship with 127km/h
20:16:07  <andythenorth> so attach canal to every station :)
20:16:16  <frosch123> set it's livespan to 2 years, so it is auto-renewed often
20:16:45  <andythenorth> I think giving vehicles some property for 'affects rating' would be interesting :)
20:16:51  <andythenorth> but as I don't understand rating mechanic :)
20:16:57  <andythenorth> I can't propose
20:17:28  <frosch123> did you try extreme values on loading speed?
20:17:46  <frosch123> try changing vehicle properties, which players actually notice
20:18:05  <frosch123> i think default is 5, so you could try making it 5 times slower
20:18:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the point?
20:18:27  <_dp_> andythenorth, best case nothing changes, worst case you get a rating pushing exploit
20:22:43  <andythenorth> _dp_ I'd like to get higher ratings
20:22:56  <_dp_> advertise! :p
20:23:02  <andythenorth> now I know about statues, I can get 82%
20:23:05  <andythenorth> but not more
20:23:41  <andythenorth> oh station with recently replaced trains has 84%
20:24:26  <andythenorth> it's always bothered me that I can't win that
20:24:28  <_dp_> well, you get easy 77 + 17 for speed
20:24:37  <_dp_> other than that is only age and ads
20:24:46  <andythenorth> I did have 100% in FIRS, but that was a bit weird
20:24:57  <andythenorth> it de-incentivises providing regular service
20:25:07  <andythenorth> and just lets cargo pile up with no consequence
20:25:43  <_dp_> cargo pile gets you from +16 to -35 so it's quite important
20:26:29  <andythenorth> not if the callback sets the value to 100% in grf :P
20:26:38  <_dp_> ah, that yes
20:26:40  <andythenorth> maybe I should restore the station rating to FIRS
20:26:48  <andythenorth> losing is boring
20:26:58  <andythenorth> 10/10 is always the score you want
20:27:14  <andythenorth> what's the newagerating switch?
20:28:29  <_dp_> newagerating?
20:28:41  <andythenorth> If the newagerating switch is turned on, the calculation changes. You get 33 points for vehicles younger than 5 years, and get 0 points for vehicles older than 21 years. Between these two ages, score drops slowly, by 2 points per year.
20:28:45  <andythenorth>
20:29:08  <andythenorth> no setting for that in OpenTTD
20:29:57  <_dp_> yeah, that doesn't seem to be a thing in openttd
20:30:22  <andythenorth> well maybe FIRS needs a new way to fix ratings
20:30:39  <andythenorth> the speed thing is weird
20:31:18  <_dp_> station ratings work kind of ok, you get about 70% normal rating, 80% with statue, 90% after replacement and 100% with regular advertisement
20:31:27  <_dp_> so the more money and effort you spend the higher it gets
20:32:04  <andythenorth> lots of slow vehicles in grfs I make
20:32:12  <andythenorth> I never considered that they are crap for ratings
20:32:23  <andythenorth> this might require a redesign
20:32:49  <andythenorth> or maybe some explanation somewhere
20:33:00  <_dp_> well, I'd say slow vehicles are crap for everything but looks :p
20:33:03  <andythenorth> maybe in vehicle windows: "Station rating: poor"
20:33:11  <_dp_> you want max speed for profit anyway
20:33:40  <andythenorth> different game style
20:34:00  <andythenorth> and lots of FIRS cargos are practically flat profit curve
20:34:20  <_dp_> yeah, but you're not after max effeciency than maxing station ratings are also irrelevant
20:34:31  <andythenorth> it's just like losing
20:34:39  <andythenorth> if you're gonna get scored on a thing, you want 100%
20:34:42  <andythenorth> anything else is ~failing
20:34:55  <_dp_> x2 it :p
20:35:21  <_dp_> so 50% becomes 100%, and 100% is 200%
20:35:24  <_dp_> double win :p
20:35:44  <andythenorth> how many ad campaigns do I need to buy to get 100%?
20:35:50  <andythenorth> I bought like 10, but the rating hasn't moved yet
20:35:52  <_dp_> one
20:35:57  <_dp_> but it won't last long
20:36:09  <_dp_> and it only works within a certain radius from town center
20:36:11  <andythenorth> oh
20:36:13  <_dp_> 20 tiles for large
20:36:21  <andythenorth> yeah these are further than that
20:36:42  <andythenorth> I have minimal towns, towns just get in the way and have no purpose
20:37:07  <_dp_> well, it's always same radius so town size doesn't matter
20:37:25  <andythenorth> yeah I've found a freight station near a town, now 99%
20:37:34  <andythenorth> so is there a GS that will just buy ad campaigns for me?
20:37:43  <andythenorth> or just deduct money and increase my rating?
20:38:06  <_dp_> cmclient has auto advertisement
20:38:25  <andythenorth> can it be included in vanilla? :)
20:38:26  <andythenorth> hmm
20:38:30  <andythenorth> but might as well just use grf
20:38:56  <andythenorth> 'auto win' mechanics :P
20:39:27  <andythenorth> ok so, adjust ratings calculation to account for slower vehicles in grf, nerf the age thing because it's stupid?
20:39:30  <_dp_> it kinda should be included in vanilla imo
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20:39:35  <_dp_> not a bad mechanic
20:39:44  <andythenorth> 'p2w'
20:39:57  <_dp_> pay to win even more pay :p
20:39:59  <andythenorth> 'advertising subscription'
20:40:48  <andythenorth> hmm, this again precludes any role for 'special' vehicles
20:40:53  <JGR> Ratings and such seems a bit too much like micromanagement hoop-jumping to me
20:40:54  <andythenorth> cargo aging is junk
20:41:01  <andythenorth> negative run cost isn't possible
20:41:09  <andythenorth> rating bonus isn't possible
20:41:33  <andythenorth> more ideas?
20:41:44  <JGR> If you did manage to have negative run costs, I'm sure someone would just run an empty train full of restaurant cars in a circle :)
20:41:50  <andythenorth> first thing I thought of :)
20:41:56  <_dp_> andythenorth, make it sound funny? :p
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20:42:50  <andythenorth> JGR I made this flash game for the launch of Railroad Tycoon 3, but I shipped it with a bug...
20:42:51  <andythenorth>
20:43:02  <andythenorth> after launch players discovered you could just loop the train to win :)
20:43:54  <JGR> Hehe
20:44:26  <andythenorth> I should have made the train alpha shift to black when it crashed :P
20:44:28  <andythenorth> flash could do that
20:44:39  <andythenorth> tint, not alpha *
20:45:19  <_dp_> what I like to do is just have a steady progression of vehicles with a faster one every few years
20:45:43  <_dp_> no property shenanigans, no railtype conversions just simple and straightforward
20:45:50  <_dp_> and make up for it in other places
20:46:22  <_dp_> well, I guess engine goals are an option as well now
20:47:29  <andythenorth> use it for daylength
20:48:05  <JGR> I tend to run my network with trains at roughly the same speed for the whole game
20:48:07  <_dp_> I don't need daylength :p
20:48:32  <JGR> I don't usually bother with vehicle progression, except for things like separate high speed networks later in the game
20:49:21  <andythenorth> so many playstyles :)
20:49:56  <andythenorth> hmm
20:50:09  <andythenorth> well maybe restaurant cars just halve the running costs of the other vehicles in conists
20:50:12  <andythenorth> consist *
20:51:01  <_dp_> yeah, drunk cows pay more! :p
20:51:27  <andythenorth> cows buy sandwiches too
20:52:12  <andythenorth> seems a bit limited, not sure other authors will be able to make use of it :)
20:52:27  <andythenorth> I guess they'll just carry on setting pointless cargo_age_period values :)
20:53:06  <JGR> As long as they don't cause desyncs or any other bugs it doesn't really matter
20:53:43  <_dp_> yep, all is irrelevant but max speed :p
20:53:44  <JGR> Money isn't that hard to come by once you've got started
20:53:47  <_dp_> speed and powah!!!
20:55:52  <_dp_> whenever I play unfamiliar set I just pick the fastest engine and add enough of it for a decent acceleration xD
20:56:42  <andythenorth> there really aren't many dimensions to make vehicles 'interesting'
20:56:55  <andythenorth> it's why stats are very levelled across most of Iron Horse
20:57:10  <andythenorth> waste of time trying to calculate exactly which vehicle is 'optimum'
20:57:20  <andythenorth> just pick one with roughly correct power, that looks nice
20:57:32  <andythenorth> and attach wagons that refit the cargo, that you like look of
20:58:21  <_dp_> I don't even know what can be done to make them "interesting"
20:58:28  <_dp_> they're just used to get cargo from a to b
20:58:29  <JGR> Wagon capacity is even more a case of just pick the best one
20:58:39  <_dp_> why buiyng the train suddenly needs to be a puzzle? :p
20:58:41  <JGR> I don't know why some set authors include rubbish wagons
20:58:47  <andythenorth> I've had multiple requests to make some wagons more 'advantageous'
20:58:56  <andythenorth> but then the game is 'read stats, ignore all other wagons'
20:58:58  <andythenorth>
21:01:33  <andythenorth> but stupidly I did add 'luxury' pax coaches with lower capacity
21:01:47  <andythenorth> on fallacy that cargo age period could be used to boost their income
21:01:59  <andythenorth> now I have been trying to retcon that for about 2 years :P
21:02:37  <JGR> That seems more like the sort of thing that should affect ratings
21:02:49  <JGR> Station ratings, that is
21:03:44  <andythenorth> I considered adding a new pax class 'first class'
21:03:50  <andythenorth> but I think I'd have to do a house set
21:04:40  <JGR> I tried playing ECS once. Having separate passengers and tourists was a bit awkward.
21:05:27  <andythenorth> I think it would be horrible with cdist, balancing consists
21:05:43  <andythenorth> cdist has quite nasty cascades in complex networks
21:05:46  <_dp_> with how iron horse is I don't really see why would anyone use it for any kind of goal game
21:05:57  <andythenorth> increase capacity on one link, another one gets overloaded soon
21:06:01  <_dp_> has a lot of stuff with tons of nice details but 0 gamplay difference
21:06:13  <andythenorth> NUTS for goal games surely?
21:06:24  <_dp_> goal set imo should have few but very distinct trains
21:06:36  <_dp_> nuts is too nuts :p
21:06:42  * andythenorth is surprised
21:06:43  <JGR> Cdist with passengers really requires that the generation rate is reduced a bit
21:07:03  <andythenorth> I am playing with Improved Town Layouts grf, it helps a lot
21:07:09  <andythenorth> by capping building sizes
21:07:15  <_dp_> I did that thing once when I disabled everything but meow trains from nuts and adjusted some stats
21:13:32  <andythenorth> maybe I just level the capacity on the 'luxury' vehicles
21:13:37  <andythenorth> with the 'standard' vehicles
21:13:40  <andythenorth> and the loading speed
21:13:49  <andythenorth> just visual choices
21:14:02  <andythenorth> or delete them, simpler
21:14:35  <JGR> You could make them a livery option? :)
21:15:01  <andythenorth> ooof
21:15:11  <andythenorth> using cargo subtypes? :(
21:16:25  <_dp_> give every third or so "luxury" skin randomly? :)
21:16:45  <andythenorth> they have position->sprite rules already
21:17:06  <andythenorth> 'restaurant' car sprites are faked in if the consist is long enough
21:17:27  <andythenorth> :D
21:18:31  <andythenorth> so...Luxury Pax Coach compared to Pax Coach :D
21:18:33  <andythenorth> costs more
21:18:35  <andythenorth> carries less
21:18:37  <andythenorth> same speed
21:18:42  <andythenorth> higher running cost
21:18:45  <andythenorth> lower loading speed
21:18:46  <andythenorth> GG?
21:18:48  <andythenorth> delete?
21:20:59  <Wuzzy> hey all. i noticed that there are some sounds defined in OpenTTD that are currently unused, like SND_22_CAR_HORN. are the planned to be used at all in future or can i consider those sounds to be "legacy" forever?
21:21:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, I feel like you're following some real-life logic and expect it to have gameplay effect
21:21:51  <_dp_> don't think that'll ever work in openttd :p
21:21:57  <andythenorth> yes
21:22:14  <_dp_> if you want gameplay effect just set whatever stats needed to achieve that however unreallistic they may be
21:22:15  <andythenorth> this is why the arrow is flying towards 'delete'
21:22:57  <Xaroth> andythenorth: perhaps finetune some of the stats.. perhaps not the carrying capacity, but the loading speed?
21:23:03  <Xaroth> that way it might be a viable alternative
21:23:09  <Wuzzy> am I just in everyone's ignore list or why am i always ignored? 🙁
21:23:09  <Xaroth> without making it better by default
21:23:16  <andythenorth> I know that players report they like having a choice between 'luxury' and not
21:23:28  <andythenorth> but they think it actually has a benefit on longer routes
21:24:06  <andythenorth> Wuzzy you have strayed into the common position here
21:24:20  <andythenorth> you are currently the only person on this whole planet interested in OpenTTD sounds
21:24:34  <andythenorth> unless there are others, but not in irc / GitHub (possible)
21:24:45  <Wuzzy> haha
21:24:50  <andythenorth> this happens
21:25:56  <Xaroth> OpenTTD has sounds?
21:26:13  <Wuzzy> ...
21:26:17  <Wuzzy> yes..
21:26:18  <frosch123> Wuzzy: i checked that. those sounds are not used in ttd. by defintiion they are thus intentionally unused in ottd
21:26:32  <Wuzzy> frosch123: ah thanks
21:26:41  <frosch123> i have some wip diff to rename them in the source
21:26:43  <Wuzzy> so then i can close those issues then
21:26:51  <Wuzzy> oh right
21:27:05  <Wuzzy> yeah, better to add a source comment to avoid future confusion =)
21:27:11  <frosch123> about half of them are mislabeled :p
21:27:24  <Wuzzy> how? they seem correct to me
21:27:26  * andythenorth looks into cargo payment curves
21:27:31  <Wuzzy> except the unused ones
21:27:36  <andythenorth> maybe I can make pax payment decay really aggressive
21:27:54  <Wuzzy>
21:28:04  <frosch123> the sounds named "truck" are used by busses. the sounds named "plane crash" are regular toyland planes starting, ... and so on
21:28:25  <Wuzzy> hrm
21:28:35  <Wuzzy> oh you mean in source code?
21:28:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, I can give you profit calc sources if you really want to dive into that xD
21:29:00  <andythenorth> it's here
21:29:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #18: Make sounds for "unused" empty sounds?
21:29:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 closed issue #18: Make sounds for "unused" empty sounds?
21:30:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #8619: Unused sounds
21:30:30  <andythenorth> _dp_ I think I tried before, and there is a limit to how steep the decay can be?
21:31:13  <frosch123> Wuzzy: <- the comments are correct now, but i need to find nice names for the enum items
21:31:41  <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't remember, haven't looked at cargo payments in a long long while
21:31:59  <andythenorth> I think there's a floor under the initial time period
21:32:37  <andythenorth> the formula breaks my brain :P
21:32:57  <Wuzzy> might be a good reference for names, i wrote it myself and i think the names are true
21:33:23  <Wuzzy> i created this page while i was working on sound replacements for OpenSFX
21:33:58  <_dp_> andythenorth, wiki has it better
21:34:17  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, looks like there isn't much you can do with that curve
21:34:34  <_dp_> basically you can only move the middle point
21:35:19  <_dp_> though mb you can effectively change steepnes with cargo aging
21:35:49  <_dp_> stretch/compress it basically
21:37:23  <andythenorth> for the distances I play, aging doesn't seem to have an effect
21:37:31  <andythenorth> it will vary by speed of vehicles obvs.
21:38:30  <_dp_> yeah, that's possible I guess
21:38:31  * andythenorth wonders if _dp_ has ticks vs vehicle speed vs tiles graph :)
21:38:36  <andythenorth> in the magic graphs ?
21:38:37  <_dp_> hard to tell without profit sim
21:40:16  <andythenorth> I did have a malus set on 'normal' vehicles, but I'm not convinced it did much
21:40:20  <_dp_> andythenorth, these 3 are connected
21:40:28  <_dp_> andythenorth, you know 2 you can calc third
21:40:51  <_dp_> s = v * t :p
21:42:45  <andythenorth> that's why I thought it might have a graph already :)
21:43:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #9: Sound cleanup roadmap
21:43:10  <andythenorth> I don't know over what distance the cargo aging property becomes effective
21:43:22  <andythenorth> previous tests suggested it was about 64 tiles for say 100mph train
21:43:30  <andythenorth> based on testing in a big savegame
21:43:38  <_dp_> I only have
21:43:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #21: Update translations in 'lang' directory
21:43:57  <_dp_> but cargo aging is not implemented and it only have default vehicle and cargo stats
21:44:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #10: Change legacy Mercurial code in scripts and README
21:44:50  <_dp_> it's not that hard to add other stuff, mostly a ui issue
21:45:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #2: Relicense OpenSFX under an actual FOSS license
21:45:09  <_dp_> but I don't have time to work on it atm
21:45:17  <andythenorth> NP :)
21:45:24  * andythenorth tests cargo age period 0 in current game
21:45:47  <_dp_> I can give you sources if you want to play with it, shouldn't be that hard to get working
21:46:13  <_dp_> cmclient should be able to export stats from the game as well
21:46:24  <andythenorth> Timberwolf snowploughs...station rating bonus :P
21:46:30  <andythenorth> or negative running costs :P
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21:54:09  <andythenorth> I think I could keep the malus
21:54:13  <andythenorth> on standard pax coaches
21:54:23  <andythenorth> but I need to normalise it for speed maybe
21:57:03  <andythenorth> hmm
21:57:12  <andythenorth> lol
21:57:35  <andythenorth> it would be much easier to just explain to players 'this vehicle earns a 50% premium per passenger'
21:57:53  <andythenorth> instead of 'this requires routes of about 64 tiles to make any difference, and that also depends on vehicle speed'
22:08:37  <TrueBrain> w00p, already have my first bug-report about the 60fps .. something to check out tomorrow :D
22:08:43  <TrueBrain> forums can be useful :)
22:08:57  <andythenorth> :)
22:09:46  <TrueBrain> just no clue what would cause that, but okay
22:09:53  <TrueBrain> that user did an hilarious experiment btw :P
22:10:33  *** arikover` has joined #openttd
22:21:40  <NGC3982> is it possible to redirect console output on dedicated server to file?
22:22:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency
22:23:17  <TrueBrain> whats the reason? CONSISTENCY! :D
22:23:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency
22:26:44  <_dp_> I only suggested dark bg for graphs... how on earth did it turn into a 2 screen long list of changes? :/
22:26:55  <TrueBrain> I don't mind :)
22:27:15  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
22:28:44  <JGR> NGC3982, use the "script" console command, or just use normal shell redirection
22:29:18  <NGC3982> i solved it by forking it and using a specifik config file
22:29:34  <andythenorth> so...can we add train property 2E?
22:29:38  <NGC3982> that makes openttd create the game files in config file directory, including openttd.log
22:29:41  <andythenorth> 'cargo payment rate multiplier'
22:30:53  <_dp_> ok, I can already imagine I won't like cream towns :p
22:31:27  <andythenorth> well we can all do some nitpick replies right?
22:31:36  <andythenorth> preferably contradictory ones? :)
22:31:49  <andythenorth> contribs. love that :)
22:32:14  <andythenorth> something like this, if it's net improvement, ship it, iterate
22:32:22  <JGR> Cargodist might be a bit of an issue for a cargo payment rate multiplier. The actual payment only occurs on the final leg.
22:32:39  <andythenorth> I think it's a bad idea
22:33:00  <andythenorth> it's just the most direct way to make a trade between capacity per unit length, and 'some other factor'
22:33:08  <_dp_> andythenorth, would be much easier to discuss as a 4 separate changes :/
22:33:29  <andythenorth> _dp_ probably, I am potato / potato :)
22:42:11  <andythenorth> ha I think I try running cost lolz for luxury cars
22:42:26  <andythenorth> tie it to load factor
22:42:37  <andythenorth> 0% load, running coast 2x normal pax coach
22:42:52  <andythenorth> 50% load, same running cost as normal pax coach
22:43:04  <andythenorth> 100% load, running cost 0 (due to sale of sandwiches, teacakes and gin)
22:44:56  * andythenorth to skeep
22:45:01  <andythenorth> sleep
22:45:02  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:54:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI
22:57:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency
22:59:59  *** JGR has quit IRC
23:04:14  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
23:05:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency
23:06:13  <glx> I don't understand why it fails
23:06:36  <glx> but the 2 failing lines are similar
23:07:12  <glx>     return std::min<uint>(IndustryPool::MAX_SIZE, ScaleByMapSize(numof_industry_table[difficulty]));
23:07:12  <glx>     total = std::min<uint>(TownPool::MAX_SIZE, total);
23:07:31  <glx> both use std::min
23:14:00  <NGC3982> openttd -D -c ~/openttd-1/openttd-1.cfg -f -x
23:14:03  <NGC3982> that's neat
23:18:34  *** Tirili has joined #openttd
23:22:09  <glx> ok adding some casts and it works, it's weird
23:25:03  <LordAro> glx: something to do with inlining and mismatched types, from when i did the conversion to std::min
23:25:21  <LordAro> the templated function means that types must be of the same signedness
23:26:05  <glx> size_t should work (in 32bit it's uint anyway)
23:27:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI
23:29:11  <LordAro> mm
23:29:38  <glx> compiler probably does weird things
23:35:34  *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
23:41:39  <glx> if I use a temp auto var for ::MAX_SIZE and use the var in std::min it compiles fine too
23:41:50  <glx> I blame the compiler :)
23:48:11  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
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23:58:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI

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