Log for #openttd on 19th March 2021:
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01:54:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8874: It is possible to run the `rescannewgrf` command while NewGRFs are being scanned.
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02:33:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #8874: It is possible to run the `rescannewgrf` command while NewGRFs are being scanned.
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04:52:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window
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04:57:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window
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09:39:54  <Timberwolf> Got another report, time to start bisecting?
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09:44:21  <LordAro> lol
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10:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: bisecting won't help you if you don't have a prior version that you were sure didn't contain the error
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10:30:03  <Timberwolf> It's definitely not in 0.4, does that help? :p
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10:31:15  <Timberwolf> Probably find it's down to the GRF anyway.
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10:31:50  <Timberwolf> The ship is 4x but the landscape is 1x, so they don't integrate properly.
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10:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's obviously a user error
10:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> mark it as "wontfix"
10:54:15  <andythenorth> are we having any lolz today?
10:55:06  <LordAro> i'm watching some people argue about flash's EoL
10:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that's how many months old now?
10:56:00  <LordAro> Windows is just now rolling out the update that removes it complete, i think
10:56:05  <LordAro> completely*
10:56:56  <TrueBrain> <- seems other projects too think this is a good idea :D
10:57:39  <LordAro> damn, FreeCiv looks a lot better than it did... 10 years ago
10:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so that's like discussing a disaster, after the first movie comes out, instead of when it's in the news
10:58:20  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: well mostly they're arguing about "i should be able to run it if i want to"
10:58:39  <LordAro> which i get
10:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> which you probably can, if you really want to
10:58:57  <TrueBrain> LordAro: only their 3D mode; luckily the 2D mode still looks the same :D
10:59:22  <LordAro> the issue is distinguishing between the people who know what they're doing, and people blindly using it because their IT has deployed it or whatever
10:59:31  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: apparently it's quite difficult
10:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
11:00:18  <LordAro> as in, they've not found a solution
11:00:53  <LordAro> there's a few methods of downloading a standalone version of it, but if the flash app needs to be in a specific place (common with flash games), that's still not going to work
11:01:56  <LordAro> oh, apparently this is a printer with a flash-based UI
11:02:01  <LordAro> which is much lol
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12:25:09  <peter1138> Why is rounding in JS so hard? :/
12:26:03  <peter1138>
12:26:07  <peter1138> Seriously, wtf?
12:37:11  <andythenorth> is cat?
12:37:20  <_dp_> well, you can do |0
12:37:51  <andythenorth> LordAro I miss Flash :(
12:37:56  <andythenorth> Make Flash Great Again
12:55:24  <Wolf01> I don't, learn javascript :P
12:58:31  <andythenorth> that sounds....worse
12:58:43  <andythenorth> Flash was the solution to Javascript
13:03:02  <andythenorth> more coffee vicar?
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14:34:42  <supermop_Home> LordAro did you heard about the transit authority that was running train dispatching on flash?
14:35:36  <LordAro> Chinese one, wasn't it?
14:35:42  <supermop_Home> yeah
14:35:49  <LordAro> mm, much amusement
14:36:45  <supermop_Home> newDisasters in GS
14:37:16  <supermop_Home> "Your trains were all running on Flash, which is no longer supported"
14:37:28  <LordAro> :D
14:56:29  <andythenorth> just use chrome no?
14:56:31  <andythenorth> job done
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17:55:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] AviationGamerX opened issue #163: Writing from right to left (Arabic)
17:58:36  <LordAro> that's presumably an eints issue?
17:58:39  <LordAro> if anything
18:06:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:06:11  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:08:45  <glx> hmm I guess it's only eints, openttd has commands to force text direction IIRC
18:09:20  <glx> maybe the issue should move to eints
18:10:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] AviationGamerX opened issue #36: Writing from right to left (Arabic)
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18:28:32  <andythenorth> is it though?
18:29:18  <LordAro> yes.
18:34:38  <andythenorth> happy days
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19:05:24  <andythenorth> quak
19:05:39  <frosch123> moo
19:05:49  <FLHerne> baa?
19:07:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: currently i have 6 items on the list you requested. but i have to check them again, whether they can be presented in an entertaining way, that is understood by more than one person
19:09:11  <TrueBrain> why do people, despite being told several times already, keep comparing performance between 1.10.3 and 1.11.0-RC1 .. it still is pointless :P
19:09:40  <andythenorth> it took you all day to notice that one?
19:09:52  <andythenorth> I can't tell if the OP is super funny, and it's just lost in translation
19:09:58  <andythenorth> or if they're just rude and aggressive
19:10:27  <andythenorth> but I can no longer respond because I'm on a forum warning
19:10:36  <TrueBrain> I read your report :P It made me laugh :)
19:11:05  <andythenorth> I have seen a certain type before and this reminds me of that type
19:11:18  <andythenorth> quite smart, lots of answers for everyone else's problems
19:11:22  <andythenorth> no skin in the game
19:11:38  <andythenorth> ridicules anything they don't agree with, as though only an idiot would try it
19:11:50  <frosch123> mb is back?
19:11:51  <andythenorth> and seeks higher authority for retribution when they're disagreed with
19:12:42  <andythenorth> I have employed people like this, they're an absolute plague in a team
19:12:51  <TrueBrain> well, I proza'd a nice reply, to remind yet again of not doing stupid comparisons :D
19:13:22  <frosch123> why did eints run twice today?
19:13:42  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I suspect that the numbers for the RC are so low that there's a genuine problem
19:13:53  <andythenorth> but the tone and presentation make me disinclined to think about it
19:14:03  <andythenorth> the mac build is a *fuckload* faster for all test cases I tried
19:14:26  <LordAro> that definitely does look like the usual "OpenGL is slow when scrolling for some reason"
19:15:05  <LordAro> 100ms graphics rendering is a dead giveaway, and much more than can be explained away by "preleases still have asserts"
19:15:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that happens if the schedule of GHA is broken enough that one time it runs 15 minutes later, the other time not :P
19:15:18  <TrueBrain> it is reallllyyyy annoying
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19:19:24  <TrueBrain> I clearly haven't read the forums in a while, I just found the best gem of them all
19:19:30  <TrueBrain> me explaining how a functionality works
19:19:34  <TrueBrain> me being told off I should play the game as I am wrong
19:19:56  <TrueBrain> that is just hilarious :D
19:21:30  <andythenorth> pls don't quit now TrueBrain :(
19:21:43  <TrueBrain> no worries, I had a lot of fun reporting that post :D
19:22:01  <TrueBrain> I wanted to take action, but was like: nah, I shouldn't, as it is about me. Better let another moderator deal with it :)
19:24:27  <TrueBrain> LordAro: the last 2 screens are asserts
19:24:34  <TrueBrain> the first three are GPU, I would guess :)
19:25:37  <LordAro> TrueBrain: indeed
19:25:49  <TrueBrain> hence my "additional to" start of my comment :D
19:25:54  <TrueBrain> it is a two-for-onner
19:26:55  <LordAro> TrueBrain: which is the post where you're being told you're wrong?
19:27:49  <TrueBrain> see PM; nuff said about this, I just really needed this laugh today :)
19:34:58  <milek7_> I doubt that asserts have significant impact on perf
19:40:39  <milek7_>
19:40:53  <milek7_> this is scrolling on AMD, on Windows
19:52:41  <LordAro> milek7_: it seems extremely variable which GPUs the issue affects
19:52:50  <LordAro> it's not all AMD, it's not all nvidia
19:59:30  <milek7_> nvidia on the same system:
20:01:05  <milek7_> as for assert impact, I checked out of curiosity
20:01:09  <LordAro> you have both AMD & nvidia in the same system?
20:01:18  <andythenorth> I have AMD and Intel in the same system
20:01:23  <andythenorth> the AMD was slower :P
20:01:27  <milek7_> wentbourne 0.6x vs 0.7x
20:01:33  <andythenorth> then I pulled last weekend and the variation had vanished
20:01:45  <milek7_> LordAro: yes, this is laptop with ryzen apu and dedicated nvidia
20:01:52  <LordAro> ah, apu, of course
20:03:28  <frosch123> hmm, technically i also have an on-board amd
20:05:00  <frosch123> hmm, but i guess i cannot just p&p it...
20:05:05  <TrueBrain> milek7_: 10% is on average what I notice on games, asserts vs non-asserts :) So 0.6 vs 0.7 sounds about right
20:05:09  <TrueBrain> it is mostly in train ticks
20:05:30  <TrueBrain> one could wonder if we cannot remove a few of those asserts to reduce the impact of them
20:06:57  <milek7_> funnily enough, I'd expect integrated amd to be faster, as it shares system memory (and nvidia needs to push through PCIe)
20:12:15  <milek7_> I guess we need d3d11 driver ;p
20:12:53  <TrueBrain> someone should really debug these GPU issues (as in, with OpenGL tooling) .. possibly it is just something really silly in our OpenGL code :D
20:14:20  <milek7_> I don't think there's proper opengl profiler available for amd
20:14:32  <milek7_> nvidia does have one
20:14:47  <milek7_> amd have but only for d3d12/vulkan
20:14:54  <TrueBrain> just we have nobody that knows how to profile and has this issue on NVidia, I believe :P
20:16:55  <TrueBrain> what are the odds I can find the assert that has the most impact on performance by enabling/disabling some?
20:17:48  <glx> check the most called functions in profiler, and disable assert in them ?
20:17:58  <TrueBrain> that aint fun!
20:18:21  <glx> random guess, asserts in game loop
20:18:29  <TrueBrain> I think it is the PF
20:19:58  <TrueBrain> but yeah, flamegraph is best way to go about this
20:21:02  <TrueBrain> 1800+ asserts .. lol
20:25:56  <TrueBrain> @calc 4.9 / 5
20:25:57  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.9800000000000001
20:26:03  <TrueBrain> 2% caused by PF
20:27:13  <TrueBrain> less than I expected :D
20:27:38  <glx> with complex network ?
20:27:45  <TrueBrain> ProGame5
20:28:00  <glx> oh yeah should be complex enough
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20:28:59  <TrueBrain> 5s for 100 ticks in a normal game .. 4.9 with PF asserts off .. 4.1 with all off
20:31:21  <TrueBrain> we define assert_msg, but seem to never use it
20:31:22  <TrueBrain> lol
20:32:09  <TrueBrain> owh, the assert handler for RC1 and beta1 is different from debug builds
20:33:46  <glx> because "normal" assert are disabled in non debug
20:33:54  <TrueBrain> exactly :D
20:41:11  <Kitrana1> is there a grf that makes it so helicopters don't circle airports like a weird wingless plane
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20:41:41  <glx> probably not
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20:53:26  <LordAro> airport patterns are very fixed
20:54:09  <milek7_> maybe it's autogyro :D
21:12:51  <milek7_>
21:12:55  <milek7_> somewhat better
21:13:46  <milek7_> but still, 25ms for what should be memcpy..
21:16:15  <milek7_> (removed pixel unpack buffer altogether and just passing host memory pointers to glTexSubImage2D)
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21:40:11  <milek7_> I'm confused
21:40:38  <milek7_> 'I deleted blitting code and it still works' type of confused :P
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22:14:11  <milek7_> michi_cc: I might just need sleep, but..
22:14:12  <milek7_>
22:14:34  <milek7_> why with this, it still renders anything?
22:15:12  <michi_cc> 8bpp sprites? Look at ReleaseAnimBuffer instead.
22:17:32  <milek7_> ah, thanks
22:26:17  <michi_cc> Some speculation: Scrolling is *the* major operation that reads back from the video buffer. The video buffer is created as GL_DYNAMIC_DRAW and mapped GL_READ_WRITE exactly because of that. You would normally expect a buffer of that kind to reside on DMA-accessible CPU memory.
22:27:51  <michi_cc> As scrolling is observed to be slow, the first theory would be that for some unknown reason the AMD drivers places the buffer in the wrong kind of memory region which has very slow readback. Why that is and how the driver can be influenced to change it is an open question.
22:28:25  <LordAro> but not all AMD drivers?
22:28:39  * LordAro reads last sentence
22:29:40  <michi_cc> Interestingly enough, it was reported that re-enabling persistent mapping for AMD is not faster, even though the persistent mapping API allows to better specify buffer usage.
22:30:09  <michi_cc> LordAro: All drivers that are slow, how ever few or many that might be.
22:31:15  <michi_cc> I think that except for Vulkan (and maybe DirectX 12), you do not get any APIs to tell the driver exactly where to place your buffer, just suggestions.
22:32:23  <LordAro> i can't imagine this isn't a solved problem
22:32:43  <andythenorth> does the mac build use OpenGL at all (in any circumstance)?
22:32:57  <michi_cc> Hit the hardware acceleration switch.
22:33:03  <milek7_>
22:33:50  * andythenorth opens photoshop
22:34:05  <andythenorth> which causes the AMD 5500M to be selected :P
22:34:22  <milek7_> huh, it switches gpu globally?
22:34:30  <milek7_> there it's per-app
22:34:36  <andythenorth> unclear on the mac
22:34:45  <andythenorth> the apps report which GPU they're using
22:34:57  <andythenorth> but I think it's one GPU per screen display
22:35:25  <andythenorth> in theory on the mac, if you delegate some stuff to GPU, that can do tasks, then pipe the output back to the screen on another GPU
22:35:35  <milek7_> michi_cc: quick ugly patch:
22:35:35  <andythenorth> it's all mad
22:36:22  <milek7_> as before, "(removed pixel unpack buffer altogether and just passing host memory pointers to glTexSubImage2D)"
22:36:32  <milek7_> I just forgot about anim buffer previously
22:37:33  <milek7_> it changes from to
22:37:44  <michi_cc> I implemented that first in the OpenGL commits, and for nVidia and Intel where I can test on, using a buffer object was always better than not using one. It still feels like the driver does something stupid.
22:38:48  <andythenorth> I don't currently see much difference on mac between the Intel UHD Graphics 630 and the AMD 5500M
22:39:15  <andythenorth> when the hardware switch first dropped in master there was more variation, but something else changed since
22:39:51  <milek7_> michi_cc: it's not that windows amd driver is known for performance :P
22:41:45  <andythenorth> ffwd fps is maybe 80% faster on mac hardware accelerated
22:41:59  <andythenorth> depending on viewport contents
22:45:54  <milek7_> >Interestingly enough, it was reported that re-enabling persistent mapping for AMD is not faster
22:46:21  <milek7_> wait, by whom? I don't remember testing that on windows
22:48:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering
22:51:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering
22:53:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering
22:53:28  <milek7_> michi_cc: that's with persistent buffer mapping
22:53:32  <milek7_> I'm sorry if there was confusion about that, but the issue with persistent being slow was on Linux mesa drivers
22:53:47  <milek7_> which was since fixed by CLIENT_STORAGE bit
22:54:12  <michi_cc> I think it was peter who reported persistent mapping to not improve anything.
22:58:51  <michi_cc> milek7_: So basically for much better Windows AMD performance?
23:00:07  <milek7_> why !_WIN32?
23:01:49  <milek7_> this block should be removed, as it was fixing wrong problem: it's not that persistent mapping itself was slow, but it was missing CLIENT_STORAGE bit
23:02:42  * andythenorth must to sleep
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23:03:21  <michi_cc> I had people tell me that #define'ing GL_MAP_PERSISTENT_AMD did not make anything better. So removing it might simply mean that we trade one set of slow GPUs against another set of slow GPUs.
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23:04:35  <michi_cc> It is entirely possible that their testing was invalid, but it's all anecdotes. Feel free to make a PR though, so more people can chime in.
23:05:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic opened issue #8875: Filter string in station window breaks flow in user interface
23:07:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering
23:08:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on issue #8875: Filter string in station window breaks flow in user interface
23:17:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on issue #8875: Filter string in station window breaks flow in user interface
23:17:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 opened pull request #8876: Change: Do not disallow persistent buffer mapping on AMD GPUs, as it is actually faster.
23:25:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8877: Fix #8871: [OpenGL] Initialize all buffers after resize and clear back buffer.
23:28:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8877: Fix #8871: [OpenGL] Initialize all buffers after resize and clear back buffer.
23:29:03  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: OSX has no swap buffer variant?
23:30:06  <michi_cc> OSX is "different" due to layer-backed views. The context that is active in this moment doesn't even have an associated window.
23:30:55  <TrueBrain> k
23:30:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8877: Fix #8871: [OpenGL] Initialize all buffers after resize and clear back buffer.
23:31:40  <michi_cc> Or put differently: Unless there's a demonstrated need for it, I'd rather not try to figure out OSX in this regard :D
23:31:48  <TrueBrain> :D
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