Log for #openttd on 21st March 2021:
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06:53:18  <NGC3982> 62 grfs is the limit on multiplayer?
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11:47:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Multitile depots
11:50:20  <nielsm>  so, is there any reason other than "nobody configured it" for strgen.exe no longer being offered as a separate download?
11:51:41  <nielsm> presumably useful if you want to start a new translation and want to try the strings in the game without having to wait for eints and nightly build
12:01:38  <FLHerne> Used to be at but it's gone
12:01:57  <FLHerne> Was there in December 2019...isn't that *after* the new wobsite?
12:02:07  <LordAro> i think we decided it wasn't worth it
12:02:14  <LordAro> adding a new language requires modifying OTTD anyway
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12:33:02  <frosch123> i should measure how often my ipv6 is broken
12:33:20  <frosch123> or i should make ottd deal better with it
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12:48:01  <frosch123> nielsm: afaik the numerical stringids are compiled both into strgen and openttd
12:48:16  <frosch123> so the output of strgen only works with ottd of the same revision
12:48:38  <frosch123> which is too much of a support hassle with people who cannot compile themself
12:54:16  <nielsm> no that doesn't make sense, then you wouldn't be able to build strgen to parse the english.txt file for the string constants
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12:55:03  <frosch123> "table/strings.h" is generated from english.txt
12:55:06  <frosch123> and compiled into openttd
12:55:45  <frosch123> you would have to change ottd to use strings as keys instead of integers
12:56:04  <frosch123> but then you could as well drop strgen and let ottd compile then language files on start, like it does for gamescripts
12:56:05  <nielsm> yes the string constant id's are compiled into openttd, but not into strgen
12:56:13  <nielsm> strgen generated table/strings.h
12:56:44  <frosch123> so, what is the key in the compiled language then?
12:56:45  <nielsm> if table/strings.h was required to build strgen then you'd have a chicken and egg problem
12:57:12  <frosch123> we had reports for years, that everything breaks when people mix ottd binaries with language packs from different versions
12:57:22  <nielsm> I'm not questioning that
12:57:52  <frosch123> nielsm: openttd is compiled with strings.h, and strgen generated language packs that are tied to it
12:58:29  <frosch123> so, both openttd and strgen are only compatible if they use the same english.txt
12:58:52  <frosch123> both rely on the order of strings in english.txt
12:59:13  <frosch123> inserting a new string, or deleting another, makes strgen and openttd incompatible
12:59:33  <nielsm> this is not a question of adding strings
12:59:37  <nielsm> this is a question of adding a language
12:59:45  <frosch123> sorry, i don't follow
13:00:16  <frosch123> well, sorry, we are dicussing different things then
13:00:23  <nielsm> a person wants a copy of strgen to make their own language pack for a known version of openttd, or possibly work on translations without depending on eints and nightly builds
13:00:34  <frosch123> i thought the subject was to supply bundles with strgen
13:00:37  <nielsm> and does not want to set up a complete build environment for the entire game
13:01:42  <nielsm> if you have strgen and the language source files then you can build language files for the version of openttd the language source files belong to without having the rest of the openttd source code
13:03:22  <frosch123> so you shifting the problem to people downloading the correct english.txt that matches their openttd binary
13:04:06  <nielsm> yes you would obviously need that
13:05:49  <nielsm> and by the way I'm pretty sure lots of sanity checks are made for the language files before they are loaded, you'd have to be crafty to make a language file that doesn't match the game version but still loads
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13:32:55  <azulcosta> wow, so many people here... hello.
13:33:20  <frosch123> yes, about 5
13:33:39  <azulcosta> is it possible to change the font size of the industry minimap subtitles ?
13:34:03  <TrueBrain> lol @ frosch123 ; you win a cookie today :)
13:34:58  <frosch123> azulcosta:
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13:38:28  <azulcosta> thanks, froch123
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14:11:51  <Wolf01> so... I always thought it was only a demo, instead it was commercial!
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15:29:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8879: Feature: Configurable rainforest line height
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16:01:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 opened pull request #37: Fix #36: translated texts should be displayed and edited according to their ltr/rtl text direction.
16:04:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8880: Feature: Press ctrl to build diagonal rivers in Scenario Editor
16:20:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain approved pull request #37: Fix #36: translated texts should be displayed and edited according to their ltr/rtl text direction.
16:24:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8879: Feature: Configurable rainforest line height
16:38:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 merged pull request #37: Fix #36: translated texts should be displayed and edited according to their ltr/rtl text direction.
16:38:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 closed issue #36: Writing from right to left (Arabic)
16:51:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 created new tag: openttd-github-1.1.2
16:56:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 commented on issue #36: Writing from right to left (Arabic)
17:09:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] AviationGamerX commented on issue #36: Writing from right to left (Arabic)
17:29:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8881: Fix: warning: comparison of integer expressions of different signedness.
17:30:26  <frosch123> ^^ high value contribution
17:33:31  <TrueBrain> are there any other kind?
17:33:47  <frosch123> not on my chaine
17:33:54  <frosch123> *machine
17:34:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8882: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Signed/unsigned warning.
17:34:30  <frosch123> lol
17:34:44  <michi_cc> Eh, I look away for five monitues :P
17:35:21  <TrueBrain> you two are cute :)
17:35:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8881: Fix: warning: comparison of integer expressions of different signedness.
17:35:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8882: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Signed/unsigned warning.
17:35:42  <TrueBrain> fight it out :P
17:35:43  <michi_cc> Yours should be through CI earlier, so..
17:35:58  <TrueBrain> michi_cc's commit message is better :P
17:36:01  <TrueBrain> well, no
17:36:05  <TrueBrain> combination of both is :P
17:36:07  <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHA :D
17:36:23  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Pick one and do a squash then :)
17:36:41  <TrueBrain> I like that you reference the commit, but I like the message more that frosch123 made :P
17:36:48  <TrueBrain> nahhhhh, I leave it up to you two who gets the credits :D
17:37:01  <TrueBrain> this is just hilarious, what are the odds :)
17:38:30  <frosch123> when is the livestream test?
17:38:41  <frosch123> we can rock-paper-scissor it
17:38:50  <TrueBrain> haha :)
17:38:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8881: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] warning: comparison of integer expressions of different signedness.
17:39:02  <TrueBrain> hahaha :D
17:39:08  <glx> lol
17:39:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed pull request #8882: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Signed/unsigned warning.
17:39:37  <TrueBrain> I love that you took the trouble of also editing the PR title michi_cc :D
17:39:58  <TrueBrain> frosch123: btw, time in 90 minutes or so to test if your OBS is still behaving etc?
17:40:05  <michi_cc> GitHub did that automatically (or maybe that's the Refined GitHub plugin, don't know really).
17:40:22  <TrueBrain> it normally doesn't, as far as I am aware :P
17:40:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: sure, then i play widelands now :)
17:40:33  <TrueBrain> owh boy ...
17:40:52  <michi_cc> I'm blaming Refined GitHub then.
17:43:03  <frosch123> well, now i'll use that PR as example, how to write good PR descriptions :p
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18:10:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:10:28  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:11:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window
18:12:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window
18:14:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window
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18:46:31  <TrueBrain> I deployed a new wiki version for OpenTTD; now with "edit summary" support
18:46:49  <TrueBrain> maybe that combats a bit of those silly commit comments people have been doing
18:48:15  <frosch123> oi, you got a contributor \o/
18:48:31  <TrueBrain> yup; helped him deploy it this last week for his own wiki
18:48:39  <TrueBrain> so there are now 2 users of TrueWiki :P
18:51:02  <frosch123> i considered adding a note to all "archive" pages: this page is archived, it's either historic, or it's content was considered trash. why are you editing this?
18:51:24  <TrueBrain> STOP EDITING ARCHIVE
18:51:24  <TrueBrain> :P
19:01:44  <TrueBrain> frosch123: time to test your OBS setup with your new webcam? :D
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19:28:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8880: Feature: Press ctrl to build diagonal rivers in Scenario Editor
19:29:39  <LordAro> TrueBrain: commit comments?
19:29:50  <TrueBrain> yeah .... so people made an edit
19:29:54  <TrueBrain> went to the GitHub history
19:30:01  <TrueBrain> and wrote at the commit a comment what the change was about
19:30:06  <TrueBrain> like anyone will ever find that anywhere
19:30:11  <LordAro> ...i see
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19:34:44  <_dp_> ffs C++, why uint8_t is still a freaking character type... >:)
19:37:35  <TrueBrain> LordAro: people do weird shit :P
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19:52:19  <frosch123> can anyone still resize the openttd window?
19:52:34  <frosch123> currently i crashes for me
19:52:36  <frosch123> but i
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19:52:47  <frosch123> can't remember whether it also did that before obs messed everything up :p
19:53:11  <TrueBrain> Linux non-OpenGL works :P
19:53:46  <TrueBrain> Windows OpenGL works too
19:53:51  <TrueBrain> but neither are useful to you, I guess :D
19:53:59  <frosch123> well, i'll retry tomorrow
19:54:07  <frosch123> maybe my video memory is fragmented
19:54:13  <TrueBrain> defrag!
19:54:15  <frosch123> openttd has all kinds of issues noe
19:54:46  <TrueBrain> let me start a Linux Vm real quick, just to see if the maximize issue happens :)
19:55:23  <frosch123> dmesg shows a lot of issues from the graphics card
19:55:32  <frosch123> it probably works fine after reboot :)
19:56:24  <TrueBrain> not so nice OBS can cause that ..
19:57:12  <frosch123> maybe it was widelands :)
19:57:19  <TrueBrain> :D
19:57:22  <frosch123> it detected that openttd was running as well, and said boo
19:57:23  <TrueBrain> which runs at 24fps ..
19:57:32  <TrueBrain> which game runs <60fps in 2021?! :P
19:57:46  <frosch123> the autosave is funny in widelands
19:57:58  <frosch123> it blocks the game, but afterwards it catches up to real-time
19:58:11  <TrueBrain> nasty
19:58:24  <frosch123> so the game does not pause, but rather lags, during saving
19:58:39  <TrueBrain> guess someone should make a PR for it
19:58:42  <frosch123> stuff jumping positions
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19:59:33  <TrueBrain> scaling issue I can reproduce by maximizing and returning and maximizing and returning again
19:59:36  <TrueBrain> now I can play OpenTTD topdown
20:00:12  <TrueBrain> and now it crashed
20:00:21  <frosch123> ah, so it's not just me :)
20:00:22  <TrueBrain> so yeah, SDL driver doesn't propagate correctly resizes to OpenGL
20:00:59  <TrueBrain> no, it is not :)
20:01:04  <TrueBrain> OpenGL only issue
20:01:20  <TrueBrain> guess I didn't find all the right places to call AllocateBackend stuff :)
20:01:34  <TrueBrain> feel free to debug and fix it :P I don't have OpenGL on Linux in an easy-to-work-with setup :)
20:01:44  <frosch123> according to my backtrace, it looks more like a race condition
20:02:01  <frosch123> AllocateBackingStore is on the stack
20:02:35  <TrueBrain> hmm .. it should only be called from the main thread, while the game-thread is not running
20:04:37  <frosch123> hmm, yes, i was wrong
20:04:58  <TrueBrain> <- should be triggered on window resize
20:05:16  <TrueBrain> should be calling somewhere in the chain
20:05:28  <TrueBrain> if I would guess, either one of the two is not working
20:05:29  <frosch123> <- anyway, i'll check again tomorrow
20:05:36  <frosch123> i don't trust obs :p
20:06:02  <TrueBrain> it might be that SDL hasn't resized the OpenGL context yet
20:06:10  <TrueBrain> I can see something racy like that happening too
20:06:37  <TrueBrain> might also be why it did work on Windows (SDL OpenGL)
20:07:16  <michi_cc> I can reproduce that on Windows for OpenGL, but only ever on resizing smaller.
20:08:47  <michi_cc> Don't really see why, though, as OpenGL Resize gets all the proper values.
20:10:23  <TrueBrain> yeah, smaller is the issue
20:10:37  <TrueBrain> which makes a bit sense; bigger wouldn't cause buffer issues, I guess
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20:34:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] arnaullv opened issue #164: [ca_ES] Translator access request
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20:47:15  <michi_cc> Okay, #8877 was an exceptionally well reviewed PR :P
20:47:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8883: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Broken window resizing.
20:48:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8877: Fix #8871: [OpenGL] Initialize all buffers after resize and clear back buffer.
20:49:07  <frosch123> excellent branch name
20:49:49  <michi_cc> Note to self: after any OpenGL change, always use -d driver=9 and watch for the nVidia debug output. Luckily, the nVidia driver debug messages are good.
20:51:20  <glx> not the first PR with multiple follow ups
20:52:01  <glx> but it's hard to think about all possible cases
20:53:22  <frosch123> seems to fix all the issues i had today :)
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20:58:21  <frosch123> i have no idea how it fixes stuff, and how it got broken by 8877 :)
20:58:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8883: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Broken window resizing.
21:01:58  <frosch123> dbg: [driver] OpenGL: Error (high) - GL_INVALID_OPERATION error generated. Cannot access buffer data. <- master shows that, PR fixes it
21:17:20  <supermop_Home> ugh ran out of switches again
21:17:57  <supermop_Home> although the line mentioned in the error is not a switch...
21:20:20  <andythenorth> hmm why do I keep looking on ebay?
21:20:28  <andythenorth> I have spent all my money until payday
21:22:26  <frosch123> do you want to leak your wish list on the stream?
21:25:31  <andythenorth> hmm
21:25:33  <andythenorth> no!
21:25:37  <andythenorth> people might bid against me!
21:26:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8883: Fix f0f96e31: [OpenGL] Broken window resizing.
21:32:40  <supermop_Home> if nmlc gives me this error but it just points to some callback section for a truck, should i assume it still means too many switches?
21:32:50  <supermop_Home> "Unable to allocate ID for [random]switch, sprite set/layout/group or produce-block. Try reducing the number of such blocks."
21:34:10  <frosch123> callbacks are also switches
21:34:28  <andythenorth> it's rare to run out
21:34:34  <andythenorth> I've only done it a couple of times
21:34:49  <frosch123> we could add graphviz to draw the active switches
21:35:04  <frosch123> but graphs with 256 edges tend to be unreadable :)
21:36:16  <andythenorth> filter out the ones with lower switch counts :P
21:38:00  <spnda> This is interesting.... bananas server returned 500: "Server got itself in trouble"
21:38:26  <frosch123> supermop_Home: anyway, 256 active switches is a lot. it only happens if switches stay active very long
21:38:44  <frosch123> when you define everything at the beginning of the nml file, and only use it at the end
21:39:01  <Xaroth> spnda: maybe stop breaking it then? :P
21:39:16  <andythenorth> if I define 256 procedures, do I game over myself?
21:39:18  <supermop_Home> frosch123 i am sure i have more than 256, but maybe what you mention is an issue?
21:39:21  <frosch123> Xaroth: does tb forward sentry reports to you?
21:39:31  <Xaroth> nop[
21:39:32  <spnda> Xaroth: I wish I knew what would cause this tho lol
21:39:46  <supermop_Home> i can try to move more to nearer their use...
21:39:50  <andythenorth> oof found a nasty FIRS bug
21:40:10  <frosch123> supermop_Home: it's not the total amount of switches in the grf. it's the amount of "active switches". a switch is "active" from its definition until its last usage
21:40:14  <andythenorth> the N tile height isn't always reliable
21:40:14  <supermop_Home> i have no idea how many switches are in this file but i would have guessed more like 2000
21:40:25  <frosch123> so the problem is the distance between defintion and usage
21:40:36  <frosch123> and how much stuff happens inbetween
21:40:50  <supermop_Home> i see
21:41:45  <supermop_Home> my file is about 45000 lines, Road vehicles take from about 0 to 35000
21:41:53  <supermop_Home> all the trams are the rest,
21:42:12  <frosch123> for example: if you define graphics 500 vehicles first, and then later put all the items for the 500 vehicles, you will have 500 active switches
21:42:18  <supermop_Home> so there might be some truck switches at like line 100 used on line 30000
21:42:35  <frosch123> if you alternate sprites and items, you only have 1 active thing at a time
21:42:52  <andythenorth> FIRS thinks these 4 tiles have same height
21:43:14  <spnda> Can someone maybe access the bananas api console? Idk why it returns status 500.
21:43:20  <supermop_Home> well i do all truck graphics then all truck items, then all bus graphics, then all bus items, etc
21:43:42  <supermop_Home> so hopefully that helps a little, except the truck section is soo huge
21:43:57  <andythenorth> wonder if I have a bug here
21:44:10  <supermop_Home> i will try to split it up (all flat trucks graphics and items, then all box trucks, etc)
21:44:22  <andythenorth> that ternary is horrible
21:44:37  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Can you upload a copy of the non-working version somewhere?
21:44:41  <andythenorth> and this should be converted to procedures :P
21:44:42  <Xaroth> spnda: what are you sending?
21:45:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8880: Feature: Press ctrl to build diagonal rivers in Scenario Editor
21:45:24  <FLHerne> Automatically moving switches later when possible was on my things-to-look-at list after andy hit it
21:45:39  <FLHerne> Not sure I'll be able to very soon though
21:45:54  <FLHerne> But a not-working example would be nice
21:46:11  <spnda> Xaroth: I'm trying to GitHub authenticate with the BaNaNaS API programmatically. It's roughly based on what's here:
21:46:49  <spnda> After getting the redirect and listening for it the redirect, using that data for returns status code 500 with "Server got itself in trouble"
21:46:55  <supermop_Home> frosch123 i think my problem is this week i was adding new purchase sprites with little icons.... the icons are defined right up at the top of the file, and then used all the way through to the end
21:47:36  <glx> <FLHerne> Automatically moving switches later when possible was on my things-to-look-at list after andy hit it <-- yeah reordering should be an nmlc feature, but it's not an easy task
21:48:12  <supermop_Home> each purchase sprite is a stack - Purchase sprite of the vehicle (switch changing livery based on year), then sprite of the icon (switch changing eg a Diesel symbol to a battery after 2050 etc)
21:48:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8880: Feature: Press ctrl to build diagonal rivers in Scenario Editor
21:50:39  <glx> supermop_Home: hmm each icon eats an ID, and they are active till the end of the file it seems
21:50:52  <supermop_Home> yeah
21:51:25  <supermop_Home> glx first i did just the trams, and it compiled fine, even though they are all the way at the bottom of the file
21:51:35  <supermop_Home> (there are only like 4 icons)
21:51:56  <supermop_Home> but then when i did all the trucks, i ran out
21:52:30  <supermop_Home> i could define the icons again separately later for trams?
21:54:04  <supermop_Home> i also have a ton of switches for like, capacity of flatbed trucks, that get defined up top, then later get used first for the diesel trucks, then for the trolley trucks (afater all other diesel trucks) then for dual mode, etc
21:54:50  <supermop_Home> so i could put all the flatbed trucks regardless of power type immediately after the capacity switches to save IDs?
21:55:19  <glx> reordering often helps yes
21:56:04  <supermop_Home> however i have a similar situation for power and running cost of each type of truck, (all diesel, then all trolley, etc)
21:56:39  <supermop_Home> so moving the order will instead make some of the trolley trucks further away from their power switches
21:56:48  <supermop_Home> hmm
21:57:16  <supermop_Home> but there are many more cargo related switched than power i think, so it should still be a net positive to reorder
21:58:15  <glx> in some cases it may be better to duplicate stuff too
21:58:26  <frosch123> after a successful compile nml will print some statistics
21:58:44  <frosch123> it will also print how many varaction2 ids it used, so you can check the effect of your reordering
22:05:43  <andythenorth> supermop_Home are they named switches for power, capacity etc?
22:05:50  <supermop_Home> yes
22:05:51  <andythenorth> i.e. per vehicle
22:05:56  <andythenorth> or are they procedures?
22:07:08  <supermop_Home> uh more like per type of vehicle (4th generation trolley trucks all share the same power switch, 4th generation flatbed trucks share the same capacity and cargo graphics switch regardless of the truck power type)
22:07:18  <supermop_Home> procedures?
22:07:30  <andythenorth> procedures require a recent nmlc
22:07:42  <andythenorth> hard to explain neatly
22:07:47  <andythenorth> and $someone needs to write the docs :P
22:07:56  <supermop_Home> like what does a procedure do?
22:08:03  <supermop_Home> not sure that i am using it
22:08:23  <supermop_Home> the most procedural thing i have is the sprite stack compositing
22:08:28  <andythenorth> so in the switch block, where you normally read a variable
22:08:34  <supermop_Home> but that's been around since like 2017
22:08:39  <andythenorth> you can instead call a switch, e.g. check_for _red_things()
22:08:48  <supermop_Home> uh
22:08:56  <LordAro> spnda: the server returning a 500 is alwaya a bug with the server (i.e. you've crashed it in some way)
22:08:56  <andythenorth> and it returns a value, or it can also stuff things into temp storage along the way
22:09:20  <LordAro> i imagine TrueBrain will appear at some point and complain about being sent exception emails
22:09:28  <spnda> LordAro: Ik ye, I'm looking to see what I might've done wrong
22:09:36  <andythenorth> and you can pass paramers to a procedure, e.g. make_sandwich(ham, eggs)
22:09:45  <spnda> Yeah, I wanted to ask but hes playing Dota 2
22:09:55  <LordAro> heh
22:09:57  <supermop_Home> i have switches that check something, and then return like 0: switch2, 1: switch3, 2: switchY etc
22:09:58  * andythenorth trialling explaining procedures :P
22:10:09  <andythenorth> yeah no this is different
22:10:30  <supermop_Home> i am pretty sure i am not doing that as i had no idea it was even a thing in nml?
22:10:41  <andythenorth> yeah, you wouldn't do it by accident :)
22:10:47  <andythenorth> it may not solve the current case
22:10:48  <supermop_Home> should i do it
22:10:50  <supermop_Home> ?
22:10:55  <andythenorth> but it really aids code reduction
22:11:03  <supermop_Home> i love making big procedural messes
22:11:15  <supermop_Home> i'm sure
22:11:33  <supermop_Home> my code is so long and i feel like it really shouldn't be....
22:11:58  <andythenorth> it's hard to explain the use cases
22:12:01  <andythenorth> but e.g.
22:12:19  <supermop_Home> do i need to actually learn python first?
22:12:22  <andythenorth> no
22:12:37  <andythenorth> I can call switch_alternative_var_random_bits(1, 1) or similar instead of random_bits()
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22:12:57  <supermop_Home> my wife seemed to make an expression of disgust watching me work on my code a bit yesterday
22:13:27  <supermop_Home> i'm sure it looks like watching a caveman try to make torchon or something
22:13:45  <andythenorth> h
22:13:45  <supermop_Home> hmmm
22:13:47  <andythenorth> ha
22:13:58  <andythenorth> well procedures may be irrelevant to your current case
22:14:12  <glx> <supermop_Home> i have switches that check something, and then return like 0: switch2, 1: switch3, 2: switchY etc <-- only the last switch counts in the active ones (if switch2..switchY are not reused elsewhere)
22:14:16  <andythenorth> but globally shared switches is a sign in my experience
22:15:47  <supermop_Home> glx unfortunately switch2 and switchY might get used 100 more times in my case
22:16:07  <supermop_Home> hmm andythenorth i should look into it
22:16:18  <supermop_Home> i should probably reorder it a bit too?
22:16:40  <supermop_Home> so its not like 9000 lines of spritegroup definitions then all the trucks
22:17:06  <glx> if they are reused you may want to factorise so they are used less
22:17:24  <supermop_Home> how do you mean?
22:17:31  <supermop_Home> i'm pretty dumb
22:18:47  <glx> as I understand it, switch2 and switchY are kind of generic in your code
22:19:30  <glx> so you should check how they are used and see how each usage differ
22:19:37  <supermop_Home> usually, yes i guess?
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22:20:07  <supermop_Home> its more like i have a switch for a composite sprite
22:20:13  <andythenorth> can someone make a varact2 graph visualiser before the livestream? :P
22:20:28  <andythenorth> then we could find out who wins in different categories (trains, industries, etc)
22:20:51  <supermop_Home> and 0: is the rigid truck body, same across all trucks of this generation
22:21:18  <supermop_Home> 1: is the bed of the truck (eg flat bed or box), same across all trucks of this type
22:21:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: sure, i'll make a quiz. i show the graph, you have to guess the grf
22:21:48  <supermop_Home> and 2: is like the pantograph etc if the truck has one, same across all trolley trucks
22:21:54  <frosch123> note the usage of "graph" and "grf" :p
22:22:16  <spnda> what kind of graph?
22:22:50  <supermop_Home> or here is one:
22:22:51  <frosch123> a graph, not a pot
22:22:54  <frosch123> *plot
22:22:59  <frosch123>
22:23:11  <glx> hmm maybe all 0 could go in a procedure with generation as parameter
22:23:26  <spnda> frosch123: huh that's new to me, but what would it show?
22:23:43  <supermop_Home> "length:                     switch_length_s_trailer;" where that switch sets the cab as length 3 and the trailer as length 6, same for every truck that has a short trailer
22:23:54  <frosch123> spnda: action123 is a  graph
22:24:12  <supermop_Home> regardless if the truck has 1 or many trailers,
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22:25:19  <andythenorth> frosch123 good quiz :)
22:26:03  <andythenorth> we could ask the audience, is a newgrf a DAG?
22:26:27  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it doesn't work on "whole grf" level
22:26:32  <frosch123> i have to pick a single industry or vehicle
22:26:43  <andythenorth> is an action 0 the start of a DAG?
22:27:07  <glx> so instead of using explicit body switch, you do it indirectly via the procedure, and reduce id count
22:27:11  <frosch123> 3 is the root, 2 or 1 is the leaf
22:27:15  <supermop_Home> huh
22:27:20  <frosch123> va2/ra2 are the nodes
22:27:25  <andythenorth> I forgot how 3 is associated to 0
22:27:28  <supermop_Home> things like that would certainly help
22:27:28  <andythenorth> too long since I did it
22:27:51  <andythenorth> supermop_Home I have loads of procedure examples, but they're all...complicated :(
22:28:00  <andythenorth> but they made my vehicle code much much simpler
22:28:04  <supermop_Home> andythenorth my grf id overly complicated
22:28:08  <andythenorth> and much faster to compile
22:28:10  <glx> andythenorth: please don't show your loop unroll ;)
22:28:12  <supermop_Home> *is
22:28:19  <andythenorth> glx saving it for the livestream :P
22:28:30  <andythenorth> we could also profile how slow it makes OpenTTD
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22:35:02  <supermop_Home> glx also common is a switch for items by position in consist
22:36:06  <supermop_Home> where 0: is the cab/tractor of the truck (so same for all trucks of same generation) and 1: is the trailer, same for all trucks of this category
22:37:10  <supermop_Home> so only one truck has a switch that calls 0: SwitchA and 1: SwitchX
22:37:38  <supermop_Home> many other trucks also SwitchA or SwitchX
22:38:23  <supermop_Home> maybe 0: SwitchA and 1:SwitchZ, or 0: SwitchB and 1: SwitchX
22:38:43  <supermop_Home> so its very combinatorial
22:39:18  <andythenorth> that isn't necessarily a problem
22:39:22  <andythenorth> depends on the exact usage
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22:41:10  <glx> but you can use the same switch for all 0: cases, same for 1: and let it determine what to do based on parameters or temp storage
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22:41:30  <supermop_Home> huh
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22:41:39  <supermop_Home> that could be helpful
22:42:28  <glx> that way all your 0: switchs are referenced only by the common caller and removed from active list
22:46:13  <andythenorth> there are 2 or 3 strategies you can use
22:46:34  <andythenorth> common switches with temp storage
22:46:47  <andythenorth> procedures which return a meaningful value
22:47:03  <andythenorth> procedures which put values in temp storage
22:47:35  <andythenorth> I almost never use a common switch, I tend to favour procedures
22:48:00  <andythenorth> it's because I learnt nfo first, and keeping track of 'global' varact 2 IDs was a PITA
22:48:24  <andythenorth> old habits die hard etc
22:48:31  <supermop_Home> makes sense
22:49:55  <andythenorth> is a simple example
22:50:13  <andythenorth> that handles loading states for a complicated vehicle with cargo sprites and a roof hatch
22:50:47  <andythenorth> the actual cargo state calculation is done in a procedure, which returns a value 0..7
22:51:00  <supermop_Home> that's a pretty common situation in my RVs
22:52:15  <glx> the main work in nfo/nml is to work around limitations in a smart way ;)
22:52:34  <andythenorth> oof that shows up here :)
22:52:40  <andythenorth> 'notes to self'
23:16:53  <andythenorth> self -> bed
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