Log for #openttd on 23rd March 2021:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:01  <FLHerne> But offset by one
00:00:12  <peter1138> I know I'm getting older but I didn't think i was quite at the age of friends dying.
00:01:14  <FLHerne> Well, through ill-health :-/
00:01:37  <FLHerne> One of the channels I'm in has lost at least three people in their 20s over the years
00:01:49  <peter1138> Ugh
00:02:02  <FLHerne> Including last
00:07:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro opened pull request #62: Some fixes
00:07:57  <LordAro> right, bedtime
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08:34:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8885: Fix #8875: Filter string in station window breaks flow in user interface
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09:10:33  <dihedral> greetings
09:13:00  <planetmaker> o/
09:14:29  <Wolf01> o/
09:22:06  <Xaroth> o7
09:22:43  <LordAro> /o
09:23:21  <Wolf01> /easy
09:34:13  <Wolf01> Meh, we left too much freedom to the customer, I don't understand why they don't use the automatic procedure to add stuff and instead they wanted to do it manually... "bug!"... no it's not, manually is for maintenance not for normal operations
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09:41:39  <TrueBrain> and we were doing so well with only greetings :P
09:42:10  <Wolf01> I'm the cccccccombo breaker
09:47:04  <TrueBrain> <- best reddit thread evah :D
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09:49:34  <LordAro> heh
09:51:34  <Wolf01> Write it as Openttd so it is disguised as a single word
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09:59:37  <TrueBrain>
10:02:19  <LordAro> lol you used that gif
10:02:34  <TrueBrain> I was really asked to do so, so .. yeah ...
10:03:57  <LordAro> no, it's an excellent choice
10:04:22  <TrueBrain> it fits the theme :P
10:05:43  <TrueBrain> LOL @ Forum .. so you explain some basics on snowline height .. and still there is: YOU ARE WRONG, post .. haha
10:05:45  <TrueBrain> what-ever ..
10:06:05  <TrueBrain> incredible how dense some people can be
10:08:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman commented on issue #41: Should source bundle / tarball be published on github?
10:09:30  <LordAro> i'd certainly be in favour of a PR that removed that setting from the worldgen window
10:09:40  <LordAro> (that is then put in 1.11)
10:09:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on issue #41: Should source bundle / tarball be published on github?
10:09:59  <TrueBrain> which setting you mean exactly?
10:10:02  <TrueBrain> snowline height or max height? :D
10:10:07  <LordAro> max height
10:10:16  <TrueBrain> yup
10:10:25  <TrueBrain> it will cause a lot of drama from a few, as a few keep insisting it does something else
10:10:46  <TrueBrain> despite all facts and explanations, they are still dying on their sword that it does something else :D
10:10:51  <LordAro> the sooner it's done (and renamed as appropriate), the more time languages have to translate it :)
10:11:03  <TrueBrain> so what is holding you back? :D
10:11:10  <LordAro> work and stuff
10:13:48  <TrueBrain> yeah, I have something similar ... mental health and stuff :P
10:15:10  <TrueBrain> the one thing I do not get, is why people got it in their head 1.11 generates "less mountains"
10:15:15  <TrueBrain> I find no evidence of that claim what so ever
10:15:50  <TrueBrain> and people I asked to give me settings that show that, have not yet done so :(
10:15:53  <LordAro> i think most of it comes from the worldgen buttons only very slightly influencing worldgen in the way you'd expect
10:16:13  <LordAro> TGP2 for 1.12? :p
10:16:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman commented on issue #41: Should source bundle / tarball be published on github?
10:17:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro commented on issue #41: Should source bundle / tarball be published on github?
10:17:26  <LordAro> incidentally, the action we use to upload the nml source artefact is now unmaintained & archived
10:17:41  <TrueBrain> sure they have a new one :P
10:17:52  <LordAro> they (GH) don't
10:17:59  <LordAro> they've just farmed it out to 3rdparty actions
10:18:10  <LordAro> which is a bit sucky
10:18:50  <TrueBrain> oof
10:18:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on issue #41: Should source bundle / tarball be published on github?
10:21:13  <TrueBrain> the one they do reference would also work for OpenTTD itself
10:21:18  <TrueBrain> so that is nice :)
10:22:05  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
10:22:16  <LordAro> it seems a bit odd to split the downloads
10:22:40  <LordAro> everything else is only (except nml, which is an exception due to pypi)
10:22:45  <TrueBrain> what do you see as issue?
10:23:16  <TrueBrain> that we cannot track download-count? :D
10:23:25  <LordAro> it seems unnecessary to have things in 2 places
10:23:33  <LordAro> and potentially confusing
10:23:40  <LordAro> and also that, yes :p
10:23:43  <TrueBrain> confusing to who?
10:23:56  <TrueBrain> from my perspective: we already have Debian, Ubuntu, etc, publishing the binaries too
10:24:00  <TrueBrain> we publish it to Steam, MSStore too
10:24:09  <TrueBrain> so there hasn't been "one source" for years now
10:24:18  <TrueBrain> so it doesn't tick me off as such :P
10:24:20  <LordAro> yeah, very true
10:24:31  <TrueBrain> the download-count is already fucked :P
10:24:46  <TrueBrain> all I see is that a portion of people do look on GitHub first
10:24:52  <TrueBrain> and we now confuse them
10:24:56  <TrueBrain> how-ever big that group is :)
10:25:10  <TrueBrain> and as long as it is all automated, personally, I don't give a craps ass :P
10:25:46  <TrueBrain> but I do get it if it just "feels wrong", as that is kinda what I hear you say :)
10:26:18  <TrueBrain> this is why I strongly think it should be additional to, not replacement of, for example; we host the truth, nobody else :P
10:29:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #62: Some fixes
10:30:47  <LordAro> cherry-picking to a completely separate repo would be impressive :p
10:30:58  <TrueBrain> that is pretty easy :)
10:30:58  <LordAro> though i suppose i could just add it as a separate remote...
10:31:08  <TrueBrain> not even add, just fetch it
10:31:08  <LordAro> weird as fuck though :p
10:31:36  <TrueBrain> but yeah, I love how you go in the git bubble and only consider the possibility of doing it via git :P
10:31:48  <TrueBrain> you silly :)
10:32:01  <LordAro> that's not a cherry-pick though :p
10:32:06  <LordAro> you're the one that used the technical term!
10:32:12  <TrueBrain> want some more salt? :D
10:32:35  <TrueBrain> let me think .. what is the right word here ... owh yeah: PEDANTIC
10:32:36  <TrueBrain> :D
10:32:39  <LordAro> ;)
10:32:44  <TrueBrain> :D :D
10:32:53  <LordAro> i have a "salted caramel" cookie sitting on my desk, i have plenty
10:32:59  <TrueBrain> hmmmmmmmmmmm
10:33:20  <FLHerne> Someone on forum is insisting that a vehicle that's, say, 65% reliable should spend 35% of the time broken down
10:33:29  <TrueBrain> I don't even know if it is an English saying, about salt ..
10:33:50  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: lol; well, I still vote to change % in MTTF values :)
10:33:52  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh, it is
10:33:55  <LordAro> FLHerne: "Someone"
10:34:11  <TrueBrain> LordAro: good :) I always wonder about these things .. it is very common in Dutch, but .. that doesn't always carry over :P
10:34:14  <FLHerne> LordAro: That Guy?
10:34:29  <TrueBrain> we talking about the same guy here? :P
10:34:38  <FLHerne> I don't follow the forum enough anymore to know if there is one now
10:35:24  <FLHerne> MTBF might be a more useful value to display, yes
10:35:26  <TrueBrain> it just amazed me what a healthy conversation I could have on Discord about the exact same subject as on forums, where on forums it was just ..  a .. shitshow of people bashing each other, disagreeing without facts, etc etc
10:35:59  <TrueBrain> well, MTTB .. Mean Time To Breakdown :D
10:37:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #62: Some fixes
10:38:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #62: Some fixes
10:41:20  <TrueBrain> owh, eints project-cache by default is set to "10"
10:41:24  <TrueBrain> we force it back to "1"
10:41:27  <_dp_> TrueBrain, and next thing ppl report will be that it doesn't decrease at the same rate as time goes :p
10:41:55  <TrueBrain> _dp_: nah, the tooltip should just explain what MTTF is; so that will be a 50 page long tooltip
10:41:59  <TrueBrain> its fine
10:42:22  <TrueBrain> when you click it, it will drag you into a Zoom training about MTTF, statistics, and everything
10:42:29  <TrueBrain> a 3 day course you cannot get out of
10:45:16  * _dp_ looking for a thumbs up emoji in irc
10:45:33  <LordAro> 👍
10:45:49  <_dp_> thanks :)
10:45:50  <TrueBrain> reliability doesn't even have a tooltip
10:46:02  <TrueBrain> the main reason I always play with breakdowns disabled, as I never understood what the % means
10:46:19  <TrueBrain> my vehicle is now 95% .. wait, not, 94% .. dropping fast, omg, 93% ..
10:46:22  <TrueBrain> no clue what it means
10:46:31  <TrueBrain> is there a 7% every tick it breaks down?
10:46:34  <TrueBrain> every day?
10:46:35  <TrueBrain> every month?
10:46:37  <TrueBrain> every year?
10:47:27  <TrueBrain> wauw, it dropped 5% in 1 game-month .. did not know it dropped that quickly :P
10:48:04  <_dp_> ehm... I never even bothered thinking about what realiability means
10:48:19  <_dp_> breakdowns are broken in so many ways that reliability hardly matters at all
10:48:32  <TrueBrain> till this day I do not know what that percentage represents
10:49:47  <_dp_> it probably represents that even CS didn't know what to make of it :p
10:51:35  <TrueBrain> owh, it is done every day
10:51:40  <TrueBrain> took me a while to find that in the code :)
10:52:15  <TrueBrain> and it is a cumulative chance
10:52:35  <TrueBrain> every day the chance is increased with 1, and a 1 in 25 chance it is increased by 25
10:52:54  <TrueBrain> when it exceeds the threshold based on the reliability, it breaks down
10:53:37  <TrueBrain> did not expect that, but I guess that works
10:53:50  <TrueBrain> even the worst vehicles can drive ~3 game days
10:57:16  <TrueBrain> I might completely misunderstand this function, but it does read to me that every vehicle breaks down at least once every 250 days if not serviced
11:04:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro merged pull request #62: Some fixes
11:04:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro closed issue #43: Favors .git version even in release tarball
11:05:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro commented on issue #10: Add GitHub Actions support
11:05:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro closed issue #10: Add GitHub Actions support
11:06:31  <TrueBrain> project management in issues, you got to love it :)
11:06:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro commented on issue #4: Release new version with py3 support
11:06:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro closed issue #4: Release new version with py3 support
11:07:25  <LordAro> mm...
11:16:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge approved pull request #32: Fix: Swap modern/old bus sounds
11:17:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge merged pull request #32: Fix: Swap modern/old bus sounds
11:17:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] LordAro commented on issue #33: Old bus / modern bus sounds are swapped
11:17:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] LordAro closed issue #33: Old bus / modern bus sounds are swapped
11:17:59  * LordAro grumbles about unlinked issues
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11:23:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge opened pull request #39: Prepare: Release 1.0.1
11:23:21  <TrueBrain> fun fact: OpenGFX+landscape compensates for the snowline height scaling OpenTTD (and NewGRF specs) do :)
11:23:28  <TrueBrain> so if you enter "16" in the NewGRF setting
11:23:32  <TrueBrain> it scales it to the max-height first
11:23:35  <TrueBrain> which is given to OpenTTD
11:23:38  <TrueBrain> which scales it back to "16"
11:23:49  <TrueBrain> that is just funny :)
11:24:10  <LordAro> oh dear
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11:24:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge approved pull request #11: Credit musicians in readme
11:25:04  <TrueBrain> so it is fine to "fix" the max-height to 255, assuming this is what all GRFs that influence snowline height do :D
11:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: try the ancient alpine(w).grf
11:25:31  <planetmaker> hm... so...
11:25:32  <TrueBrain> that is .. pretty unexpected, but a nice find nevertheless :)
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11:25:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge merged pull request #11: Credit musicians in readme
11:25:44  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: do I want to ... :P
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11:30:59  <TrueBrain> okay, this snowline height newgrf stuff makes sense now .. also the difference between peoples expectation and how it really works
11:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: in case you were looking
11:32:54  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I don't know if you can assume all newgrfs do things similarly :-/
11:33:14  <FLHerne> (but tbh I can't think of another snowline grf)
11:33:57  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that GRF says: 25% of height is snow
11:34:06  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I am sure I cannot :)
11:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it should have varying snowline (just no parameter to adjust it)
11:35:25  <TrueBrain> owh, indeed, it does
11:35:29  <TrueBrain> I was just looking at 1st of Jan
11:35:35  <TrueBrain> how it changed with max-height
11:37:44  <TrueBrain> so that GRF has the issue that if you put max-height to 255
11:37:46  <TrueBrain> nothing will have snow
11:37:52  <TrueBrain> which will piss off at least 1 person
11:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
11:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- person
11:38:35  <TrueBrain> the specs are clearly created for a single use case, and we have at least 2 :D
11:38:42  <TrueBrain> its fine; just a nice observation :)
11:43:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: talking about automation, I guess we should also make that if you release OpenGFX/OpenSFX/OpenMSX, it should auto-upload to BaNaNaS ..
11:45:14  <TrueBrain> main issue that I have not solved, is authentication :P
11:52:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] SecularSteve opened issue #166: [sr_RS] Translator access request
11:52:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] SecularSteve opened issue #167: [hr_HR] Translator access request
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12:02:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] taku315 opened issue #168: [ja_JP] Translator access request
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12:32:21  <Wolf01> Hmmm, strange, I was sure I was watching (listening actually) a video of "Biffa plays" instead it was "the Royal Institution" with Matt Parker... they talk exactly in the same accent, voice, lane mathematics etc
12:33:49  <TrueBrain> its a conspiracy, I am sure :D
12:34:11  <Wolf01> Or they are the same person :D
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13:19:05  <supermop_Home> well i refactored my grf and got it to compile again, and decided to keep going with cleaning up the code, and now again it doesn't compile
13:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: are you saying "all english people sound the same"? :p
13:23:55  <Wolf01> No, I can tell different accents :P
13:24:31  <Wolf01> Not really the place they are from, but when they sound the same I'm able to recognize it
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15:57:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 opened issue #8886: Changelog button crashes the game if NewGRF contains
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16:00:21  <LordAro> that looks like a size issue, rather than .md
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16:04:50  <LordAro> so that's weird
16:05:00  <LordAro> for me, it opens the changelog fine
16:05:05  <LordAro> ...only it's OTTD's changelog
16:05:07  <LordAro> not the GRF's
16:05:10  <LordAro> what.
16:13:50  <LordAro> oh
16:13:51  <LordAro> oh no
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16:18:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8886: Changelog button crashes the game if NewGRF contains
16:19:35  <LordAro> there's your CVE, if you wanted one
16:20:37  <LordAro> interestingly, doesn't crash for me displaying changelog.txt
16:20:40  <LordAro> dunno why
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16:57:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #8886: Changelog button crashes the game if NewGRF contains relative folder
17:07:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8886: Changelog button crashes the game if NewGRF contains relative folder
17:07:56  <TrueBrain> LordAro: at least that should be filtered when uploading to BaNaNaS
17:14:37  <LordAro> yeah
17:15:25  <LordAro> ooh, it's not 65k lines
17:15:29  <LordAro> just 65k pixels
17:16:19  <LordAro> oh yeah, this is why i was expanding the dropdown lists
17:16:32  <LordAro> i'd forgotten the original reason
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17:36:23  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
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17:48:13  <TrueBrain> Lol
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18:08:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:08:15  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:11:02  <glx> hmm seems to be more than 30 minutes
18:11:28  <frosch123> should i move to the netherlands or something?
18:12:03  <frosch123> do you have better politicians?
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18:27:55  <spnda> CDU go brrrrr
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18:32:03  <TrueBrain> That GitHub... more than 30 minutes drift ... ughhhhhh
18:32:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: same shit different accent, that is all :p
18:33:23  <frosch123> do they also do: we dicussed all night, and decided on A --- what does A mean? --- we don't know...
18:34:20  <frosch123> also, i only noticed today, that the livestream is just before easter
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18:34:41  <frosch123> so, i may procrasintate the preparation until friday morning :p
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18:53:58  <TrueBrain> Owh, yeah, early Eastern this year
18:56:26  <frosch123> lol, you didn't notice either?
18:56:47  <frosch123> until yesterday i though it was a regular friday :p
18:57:51  <frosch123> i only noticed when that maundy-thursday-mess-on-1st-of-april mess started
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19:09:59  <andythenorth> yo
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19:22:12  <supermop_Home> yo
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19:30:05  <supermop_Home> does nmlc cache stuff?
19:30:29  <supermop_Home> its still giving me warning about case in file paths after i corrected those
19:32:39  <frosch123> it caches all the sprites
19:32:53  <frosch123> you can delete the .nmlcache folder, if you want
19:33:35  <frosch123> i have no idea about that "case" warning. probably a windows thing
19:34:55  <TrueBrain> yeah .. good thing we didn't pick the 1st of April to do the livestream :D
19:36:28  <andythenorth> ?
19:38:09  <andythenorth> TrueBrain 1.11 does generate less mountains btw
19:38:15  <andythenorth> I showed the heightmaps in discord
19:38:22  <andythenorth> but isn't that the point?
19:38:44  <TrueBrain> I keep asking for people to show more than a heightmap
19:38:47  <TrueBrain> like settings etc
19:38:47  * andythenorth reading back logs
19:38:52  <andythenorth> same settings
19:38:54  <TrueBrain> but that keeps being unanswered :P
19:38:57  <andythenorth> why would I change the settings? :P
19:38:59  <andythenorth> lol
19:39:05  <TrueBrain> "same settings", owh, THOSE SETTINGS! Yes, now I know
19:39:07  <TrueBrain> shrugs
19:39:09  <andythenorth> yes :)
19:39:26  <andythenorth> I am not pursuing it, LC is both correct, and wrong
19:39:36  <TrueBrain> yeah, so this is still useless information to me
19:39:36  <andythenorth> 1.11 won't make steep mountains where 1.10 would
19:39:45  <TrueBrain> people keep saying that "with some settings" things are "different"
19:39:49  <andythenorth> but how will forests build on steep mountains?
19:39:49  <TrueBrain> yet give me no information what either of those 2 are :)
19:39:55  <TrueBrain> so ... yeah, noise to me atm :)
19:40:08  <TrueBrain> I just wish someone would answer my simple question: with what settings :)
19:40:39  <andythenorth> this demand for actual information seems unreasonable
19:40:45  <andythenorth> why can't you just guess inside people's heads
19:40:49  <andythenorth> or their client settings?
19:40:50  <TrueBrain> you too joined the party of "there are less mountains"
19:40:55  <TrueBrain> without giving any insight in what you are trying :)
19:41:14  <TrueBrain> not sure what people expect to happen .. that we are going to try all settings in an attempt to reproduce?
19:41:17  <TrueBrain> I tried the basics; I failed
19:41:21  <andythenorth> that would be mad
19:41:37  <andythenorth> I am not interested in picking random settings combos and then cherrypicking differences
19:41:56  <TrueBrain> so .. why did you highlight me? :D
19:42:08  <andythenorth> because I like to talk to my friends
19:42:11  <TrueBrain> this is one weird conversation andythenorth :)
19:42:22  <TrueBrain> so I repeat: if you have any settings to share, I am happy to hear
19:42:30  <TrueBrain> otherwise, I think it is a myth and people are just repeating others :)
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19:44:20  <TrueBrain> for now, I am putting money on "it is just a meme"
19:44:26  <andythenorth> ha
19:47:05  <andythenorth>
19:48:09  <peter1138> Oh no, his IRC client is still connected :/
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19:58:14  <andythenorth> hmm do I misunderstand seed?
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19:58:49  * andythenorth misunderstands following instructions
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20:10:45  <glx> <andythenorth> but how will forests build on steep mountains? <-- easy, you make steep mountains, then you cut the head so there's a flat area on top
20:11:21  <glx> but then you'll get complains about flat top
20:11:33  <andythenorth> I found a tt-forums thread of complaints about those
20:11:36  <andythenorth> mostly eddi :)
20:13:25  <andythenorth> oh do default forests have the terraforming thing?
20:13:50  <andythenorth> seems they are flattening mountains
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20:16:22  <frosch123> all flat industries have the terraforming thing
20:21:14  <andythenorth> ta
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20:26:42  <Timberwolf> Conclusion: nobody likes arctic, replace with Toyland.
20:27:48  <TrueBrain> two toylands?! :D
20:28:04  <Timberwolf> Toyland has never created a terrain generator argument in its entire existence.
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20:28:41  <glx> only annoying sounds ;)
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20:41:45  * andythenorth back to reading the MHL thread from 2008-2012 
20:41:52  <andythenorth> p.43 of 59
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20:53:32  <supermop_Home> my complaint is when my (city) town spawns on top of a tall mountain
20:53:55  <supermop_Home> or when mountains have weird crater valleys with no outflow
20:55:12  <supermop_Home> terrain generator should come bundled with some advanced hydrological model to perform 100M years of erosion and geological uplift simulation
20:55:54  <supermop_Home> then a model that simulates 30,000 years of stone age nomadic people wandering around before they settle into towns
20:57:01  <supermop_Home> for good measure throw in some randomization  for the 2000 years of development prior to game start
20:57:28  <supermop_Home> "Railroads were never invented in this timeline so you don't get any trains"
20:59:32  <LordAro> :D
21:00:39  <Timberwolf> Data files are just a list of reactions between different types of things, and industries are procedurally generated based on what raw resources spawn in the world and how the simulated society develops.
21:05:15  <andythenorth> we could define single tile industries, give them ins and outs
21:05:22  <andythenorth> and see what the game generates
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21:11:06  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Did deleting .nmlcache fix the warnings? That would be a bug
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21:19:47  <TrueBrain> the "max_height" (which is "highest peak") table TGP uses is really really weird
21:20:01  <TrueBrain> the  highest peak on a 4kx4k map, flat, is 31 .. but on a 256x256, 8
21:20:17  <TrueBrain> "flat", depending on map size, has a really weird definitions
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21:25:04  <TrueBrain> well, with tnx to the report by andythenorth , I now finally know what people mean with "less mountains in 1.11"
21:25:16  <TrueBrain> if you have extreme settings, like a very low snowline height (as in, 2), and the rest very extreme
21:25:19  <TrueBrain> in 1.11, the hills are less high
21:25:38  <TrueBrain> this is a piece of code that ensures flat is still flat on arctic, instead of hilly
21:25:53  <TrueBrain> if you look at 1.11 without knowing 1.10, it looks fine, imo
21:25:59  <TrueBrain> it is only if you compare, that you see it is different
21:26:10  <TrueBrain> it seems that is what set LC off .. not that I ever guessed anything remotely like that
21:26:20  <TrueBrain> but that happens if people blame it on a certain aspect, instead of reporting the problem :D
21:26:46  <TrueBrain> now the question is: is this a bug? As "it is different" doesn't make anything a bug
21:27:01  <TrueBrain> there is more wrong with that table than just this :D
21:28:04  <TrueBrain> very tempted to not fix the "niche" (as in, very extreme settings), as I know someone is working on changing this for 1.12 in a more sane way
21:28:07  <TrueBrain> opinions?
21:28:58  <glx> using very extreme settings is asking for problems anyway
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21:30:48  <TrueBrain> in 1.10 it was extreme on one end of the spectrum (hilly), in 1.11 it is extreme in the other (flat)
21:30:57  <TrueBrain> I do not really see a way to optimize to both in the current code
21:31:23  <TrueBrain> (without just making a "Custom" setting in the terrain type where you can select your own "highest peak" value :P)
21:31:35  <TrueBrain> if there was more time, I would have done that for 1.11 honestly :D
21:33:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: any opinions about the matter?
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21:33:41  <TrueBrain> lol, that strgen dude has one hell of a niche problem he is fixing :) Well, he has a strgen.exe now :) Guess that covers the strgen.exe request for the next 5 years :P
21:34:20  <glx> why did he need an strgen.exe ?
21:34:41  <TrueBrain>
21:34:57  * andythenorth gravedigs peter1138 speaking truth
21:35:05  <andythenorth> it's not even that old :D
21:35:27  * andythenorth considers making a heightmap png generator using python PIL
21:35:33  <andythenorth> in a very opinionated way :P
21:35:46  <andythenorth> wonder how far I could get before declaring it impossible
21:36:10  <TrueBrain> hmm .. is TGP a true perlin noise generator, or is it cheating .. I cannot remember :D
21:36:33  <andythenorth> I started reading about noise generators
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21:36:55  <andythenorth> the main benefits of perlin seem to be (1) computationally cheap (2) algorithm is open source
21:37:05  <TrueBrain> well, you can do something nice with it
21:37:10  <TrueBrain> generate different resolution maps
21:37:15  <TrueBrain> with the same characteristics
21:37:20  <TrueBrain> as it is rather deterministic
21:37:28  <TrueBrain> so you could make an ingame preview of the heightmap you are about to play
21:37:55  <TrueBrain> (without taking for-ever on a 4kx4k)
21:37:59  <TrueBrain> you just generate a low-res variant
21:38:33  <andythenorth> could do it backwards
21:38:40  <andythenorth> heightmap image first :P
21:38:45  <andythenorth> then map from that
21:38:47  * andythenorth stupid ideas
21:41:52  <glx> TrueBrain: for me it would be easier to write a grf to do exactly that, but well
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21:44:18  <TrueBrain> glx: to generate previews? :D
21:44:30  <TrueBrain> or what part do you mean?
21:44:42  <glx> no to change default vehicle names :)
21:45:13  <TrueBrain> ah :D
21:45:27  <TrueBrain> well, if you can help him with a very simple prototype to do that, he would be very appreciative I hope
21:45:31  <TrueBrain> but clearly he failed in his attempts
21:45:45  <TrueBrain> I originally considered doing that, but I realised: I have no clue how :P
21:47:52  <TrueBrain> "When OTTD can support cliffs, this routine may not be necessary."
21:47:59  <TrueBrain> I love that the assumption is that it ever would
21:48:22  <andythenorth> :)
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21:50:31  <TrueBrain> wauw, so TGP really doesn't do subarctic
21:50:39  <TrueBrain> the terrain generation favours high mountains above others
21:50:44  <dwfreed> I mean, RollerCoaster Tycoon supports cliffs
21:51:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: how difficult is adding cliffs? :D
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21:51:34  <dwfreed> in the original game, one of the early maps was a mine-themed park
21:51:50  <andythenorth> cliffs could be done as a visual hack
21:51:54  <andythenorth> but eh
21:52:02  <andythenorth> I'm not drawing them
21:52:13  <TrueBrain> I wonder in how many places the game breaks :P
21:52:27  <dwfreed> wtb train tunnels
21:52:40  <dwfreed> and road tunnels
21:53:07  <andythenorth> just do them like we do foundations :P
21:53:18  <andythenorth> still a one tile slope, but the graphics look like a cliff
21:53:31  <frosch123> glx: TrueBrain: we have a "original vehicles names" and "better vehicle names" newgrf on bananas, for exactly that reason :p
21:53:37  <frosch123> they are both usable as static newgrf
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21:54:11  <TrueBrain> well, someone who understands that part of OpenTTD can explain it to him :P Or not .. at least he can do his thing now .. or fail .. or both :P
21:54:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: cliffs are a) ugly b) only work in 2 directions facing the camera
21:54:40  <TrueBrain> fair
21:54:45  <TrueBrain> so there we have it: no cliffs people
21:55:37  <frosch123> i dream of adding a mapgen preview, that displays more than 3 slopes in a row in "red"
21:55:46  <Timberwolf>
21:55:54  <Timberwolf> But why don't the other ships just clip through it?
21:56:15  <frosch123> maps become stupid when the intended slopes exceed what is possible
21:56:17  <TrueBrain> didn't they upgrade to Real Life 1.10?!
21:56:30  <TrueBrain> frosch123: how do you mean?
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21:57:22  <frosch123> if tgp wants to create steeper slopes than possible, ottd will create long slopes
21:57:40  <TrueBrain> the "correction" algorithm for it is .. something special, yes :)
21:57:46  <frosch123> i consider that very ugly, and bad to play on, because terraforming a single tile will cascade very far
21:58:10  <TrueBrain> that is why I never really got why we would more than 16 height levels :P
21:58:15  <TrueBrain> but that is not because of 16
21:58:18  <TrueBrain> but because of long slopes
21:58:22  <frosch123> so, i would prefer if tgp would not generate long steep slopes, or that there would be a warning/preview about that
21:58:46  <frosch123> i like 32 or 48 height levels
21:59:06  <frosch123> but anything more only makes sense on huge maps, which i consider stupid as well :p
21:59:15  <TrueBrain> either my perlin noise knowledge is too dusty, or TGP in its essence is not a perlin noise generator :P
21:59:39  <frosch123> TrueBrain: how did you progress with automating the max-height level?
21:59:55  <frosch123> or were you scared by all the complaints? :p
21:59:59  <TrueBrain> automating?
22:00:14  <TrueBrain> I had some really constructive talks about TGP on Discord; it is shocking, I know :)
22:00:23  * andythenorth has finished reading the MHL thread
22:00:27  <frosch123> generating the map with no limit, and then setting the max-height setting to the result afterwards
22:00:30  <TrueBrain> we found out OpenGFX+landscape offsets the perception of the NewGRF specs :P
22:00:37  <andythenorth> and the carefully constructed "MHL is not in 1.5" thread :P
22:00:56  <TrueBrain> frosch123: honestly, the main thing I am stuck with is the NewGRF snowline height
22:00:58  * andythenorth found out why we do what we do
22:01:02  <TrueBrain> that is to say, for OpenGFX+landscape, there is 0 issue
22:01:10  <andythenorth> goes it throw out newgrf?
22:01:11  <TrueBrain> the only issue, somewhat, is with for example alpinew
22:01:20  <andythenorth> why can't we just break grfs?
22:01:28  <TrueBrain> where people abuse the max-height setting to get ride of the snow
22:01:33  <frosch123> TrueBrain:  originally the intention was also, that industries could detect whether they are built on high altitude or not
22:01:38  <andythenorth> or to put it another way, why have we broken my grfs a couple of times?
22:01:40  <andythenorth> but not others?
22:01:41  <frosch123> but i have no idea whehter anyone ever used that
22:01:54  <frosch123> or whether people only used below/above snow line for industries
22:02:01  <TrueBrain> so if we clamp the NewGRF snowline height between the sea level and highest peak
22:02:10  <TrueBrain> some users might complain that such grfs no longer do what they expect
22:02:19  <andythenorth> 'some users might complain' :)
22:02:24  <frosch123> in either case, the intention for newgrf was always to provide them with relative heights
22:02:27  <andythenorth> if I complain more, does that cancel the others?
22:02:30  <frosch123> which works fine if you can auto-detect that
22:02:32  <andythenorth> is it like a vote?
22:02:39  <glx> don't forget long slope with a transmitter on top
22:02:46  <andythenorth> glx they're the best :)
22:02:48  <TrueBrain> " The values can be any value between 0 and FFh. FF means 'no snow'; other values are scaled to the number of possible heightlevels of the map. "
22:02:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: problem for me is this ^^
22:02:57  <TrueBrain> it says POSSIBLE heightlevels
22:03:05  <andythenorth> glx 48 continuous ugly tiles and then a transmitter :)
22:03:08  <andythenorth> but never a lighthouse :(
22:03:13  <andythenorth> good transmission though
22:03:15  <TrueBrain> well, specs say nothing about GRFv7 also scaling to it, but that are details :P
22:03:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: grfv7 is no concern
22:03:34  <TrueBrain> so I enter the NewGRF area there, and not sure how to navigate that :D
22:03:35  <frosch123> if people care, they can upgrade
22:03:51  <frosch123> give people options to upgrade, and they will
22:04:12  <frosch123> what is your problem with "POSSIBLE"?
22:04:17  <TrueBrain> honestly, if we could change the NewGRF spec to have both "relative to highest peak"  mode and "absolute mode"
22:04:26  <TrueBrain> we can fix the rest accordingly
22:04:49  <frosch123> newgrf can read "max-height", they can do the multiply themself?
22:04:58  <TrueBrain> that is what OpenGFX+landscape does, yes
22:05:10  <TrueBrain> so yeah, the latter mode is not needed
22:05:15  <TrueBrain> the first is a change of spec, strictly seen
22:05:22  <frosch123> still, i don't understand the problem with "POSSIBLE"
22:05:36  <frosch123> you can freely choose that value
22:05:52  <TrueBrain> lets see if we still talk about the same thing :)
22:06:08  <TrueBrain> NewGRF snowline height scales 0 .. 255 to 0 .. max-height atm
22:06:15  <TrueBrain> where max-height is really height-limit
22:06:27  <TrueBrain> if we change that to scale to 0 .. highest-peak
22:06:34  <TrueBrain> people who have been using it in a certain way
22:06:37  <TrueBrain> will now have different results
22:06:55  <TrueBrain> the word "possible heightlevels" in specs suggests to me that the height-limit is meant
22:06:57  <TrueBrain> not highest-peak
22:07:02  <TrueBrain> so I can see people tripping over that
22:07:08  <frosch123> ah :) i do not suggest to remove the "max-height" setting
22:07:13  <TrueBrain> but I cannot navigate this, as I do not know NewGRF enough; I can only present you what I found :)
22:07:24  <frosch123> instead add an "auto" value, that sets the setting after map gen
22:07:48  <frosch123> map height will still be limited after generation, just not during geration
22:07:53  <TrueBrain> oof, that is a bit cheaty, but I guess that works
22:08:15  <TrueBrain> personally .. I would rather have the height limit to always be 255, as why if a map generated, say, up to 10 heigh
22:08:18  <frosch123> give it a bonus of 10% or 16 height levels, so players can still terraform the peaks
22:08:19  <TrueBrain> can I not build to 11?
22:08:20  <TrueBrain> or 12?
22:08:40  <frosch123> setting max-height to 255 makes it useless
22:08:42  <TrueBrain> and so it becomes fuzzy again :D
22:08:44  <TrueBrain> yes!
22:08:46  <TrueBrain> exactly!
22:08:48  <TrueBrain> lets do that :D
22:08:49  <frosch123> then you would have to add a new variable "max peak"
22:08:50  <TrueBrain> :P
22:08:54  <frosch123> so what's the point?
22:08:54  <TrueBrain> yup
22:09:13  <TrueBrain> one is a lot easier to understand, mostly
22:10:21  <TrueBrain> well, what I was currently thinking: add to the dropdown of very flat / flat / .. an extra one: "Custom"
22:10:26  <TrueBrain> where people can set any value they like
22:10:27  <frosch123> problem with "max peak" is, that it changes during the game
22:10:32  <TrueBrain> to tell TGP to use that as "max peak"
22:10:35  <frosch123> that's kind of too complicated for most purposes
22:10:44  <TrueBrain> that is what I would consider a "max peak"
22:10:50  <TrueBrain> but it is during generation only
22:10:57  *** ad5twoknebor[m] has joined #openttd
22:11:14  <TrueBrain> well, I guess both ideas work together fine
22:11:21  *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC
22:11:24  <TrueBrain> height-limit defaults to "auto"
22:11:33  <TrueBrain> "max peak" to nudge TGP into a certain direction
22:11:38  <TrueBrain> when it is done, height-limit is calculated
22:11:43  <TrueBrain> used to control NewGRF snowline height
22:12:11  <TrueBrain> allows "full control" on both sides
22:12:18  <TrueBrain> E_TOO_MANY_SETTINGS, but what-ever
22:14:34  <TrueBrain> totally unrelated: frosch123 , why can you only set the snowline table once? I want to make a NewGRF that has a few years of harsh winters, followed by long summers!
22:14:59  <Xaroth> Global Warning GRF
22:15:03  <Xaroth> warming, even.
22:16:08  *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
22:16:14  <TrueBrain> owh, the setting is called "max_heightlevel", that works too
22:16:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the only thing with keeping the setting for me, would be the question, what is the default: "auto" or 255 :) But that is something to figure out over time
22:16:33  * LordAro scrolling back
22:16:45  *** ircer[m] has joined #openttd
22:16:53  <LordAro> TrueBrain: surprised you actually gave the strgen.exe, rather than suggesting to make a (working) newgrf
22:17:06  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no opinions on arctic, tbh
22:17:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I warned him what he is walking in to, so .. everyone is free to do his niche :)
22:17:19  <LordAro> ideally any user facing change should be documented one way or another
22:18:12  <LordAro> ah, glx also suggested a grf
22:18:18  <LordAro> also, lol cliffs
22:18:58  <LordAro> fun fact: AoE2 uses the "visual trick" method of cliffs
22:19:36  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you can default it to "auto" for new games, that won't change it for savegames
22:19:44  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
22:20:07  <TrueBrain> I know :)
22:20:12  <TrueBrain> I just want it to be 255 for new games :P
22:20:15  <TrueBrain> :D
22:20:33  <andythenorth> such trips down memory lanes
22:20:41  <andythenorth> I wish old forum pages were in black and white
22:20:43  <andythenorth> like the past
22:20:46  <TrueBrain> no, it is fine, "auto" bridges the problem between having the setting and how it is used
22:20:57  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that's opinionated. i think maps that actually reach that height level are ugly :p
22:21:22  <TrueBrain> maybe even "auto" is not needed, just a higher default value
22:21:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: also, you can of course invent a new ambient callback for dynamic snow line height
22:21:29  <TrueBrain> or a warning if TGP wants to generate higher
22:21:36  *** Samu has quit IRC
22:21:56  <TrueBrain> hmm .. a warning is far easier than "auto" :P
22:21:58  <TrueBrain> let the user fix it :D
22:22:10  <frosch123> TrueBrain: once we considered adding a newgrf variable for "moon phase"
22:22:17  <TrueBrain> haha :D
22:22:20  <frosch123> because of silly requests
22:22:34  <TrueBrain> the more I think about mapgen, the more I realise that presets are a bit must-have to make a clear UI for it :P
22:22:38  <TrueBrain> most users just want "Flat"
22:22:44  <TrueBrain> just experts want to tune every nob
22:23:11  <andythenorth> it's like audiophiles
22:23:15  <frosch123> oh dear. can i add a bug that crashes the game when people use "flat"
22:23:21  <andythenorth> they convince themselves the knobs make a difference
22:23:23  <frosch123> people who want flat should play factorio
22:23:28  *** elliot[m] has joined #openttd
22:23:34  <TrueBrain> there is always "very flat" :P
22:23:35  <frosch123> the flat map is the most boring part of factorio
22:23:36  <andythenorth> presets-as-content :P
22:23:40  <andythenorth> TGP grfs
22:23:52  <andythenorth> "A bit like Norway"
22:23:55  <andythenorth> "Quite Welsh"
22:24:10  <andythenorth> "Mostly Holland, but with 2 weird Alps"
22:24:22  <TrueBrain> so, "auto" .. I guess it could be: std::max(40, highest-peak)
22:24:30  <TrueBrain> std::max(40, highest-peak + 2)
22:24:31  <TrueBrain> :P
22:24:55  <frosch123> std::max(32, highest_peak + 16)
22:25:05  <LordAro> andythenorth: :D
22:25:11  <andythenorth> I am really curious if I can fake a terrain gen without knowing anything about computer science
22:25:13  <TrueBrain> "handjeklap"
22:25:13  <Xaroth> Mostly Holland would be so insanely popular, andythenorth, since that's pretty much "Perfectly flat"
22:25:26  <TrueBrain> frosch123: sure .. means 512x512 always fits, for all types
22:25:30  <andythenorth> I used to write a lot of fake physics for flash games
22:25:32  <TrueBrain> as in, they are < 32
22:25:36  <andythenorth> using basic trig, and tuning
22:25:43  <TrueBrain> so it only has an effect on larger maps
22:25:49  <TrueBrain> which feels sane
22:25:55  <andythenorth> the difference I guess is that I did actually study physics, so I knew what I was ignoring :P
22:26:14  <TrueBrain> next would be to add a warning if your highest-possible-peak is below max-height
22:26:20  <TrueBrain> so you know some mountains are cut down
22:26:23  <TrueBrain> I think?
22:26:55  <frosch123> is it that predictable?
22:27:00  <TrueBrain> yes
22:27:10  <TrueBrain> well, kinda
22:27:15  <TrueBrain> the slope-issue you described earlier
22:27:20  <TrueBrain> means it might not reach it
22:27:33  <TrueBrain> (it can lower the highest peak)
22:28:55  <frosch123> so that strgen guy asked for 2 years how to change language files, when there was a newgrf solution :p
22:29:08  <TrueBrain> he clearly tried the NewGRF way :)
22:29:21  <frosch123> but did not find the right topics
22:29:38  <TrueBrain> and nobody seemed to want to help him
22:29:44  <TrueBrain> everyone was just giving him more problems to solve
22:29:48  <TrueBrain> instead of asking: wtf are you doing :P
22:30:10  <frosch123> static-newgrf is equally niche as their request
22:30:15  <TrueBrain> yup
22:30:36  <TrueBrain> can we also make snowline height "auto" by default
22:30:40  <TrueBrain> and put it on like 80% or what-ever
22:30:48  <TrueBrain> and the desert line on 25%
22:30:59  <TrueBrain> means niche people can do what-ever-the-fuck-they-want
22:31:05  <TrueBrain> and new players get maps that work
22:31:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i would rather change the unit of "snow line height" to "percentage" then
22:31:41  <frosch123> percentage water, percentage snow
22:31:44  <frosch123> many games have that
22:31:45  <TrueBrain> "both" would be ideal
22:31:57  <frosch123> though, one is area, the other is height :p
22:32:17  <TrueBrain> euh, yes, if you mean: percentage of map covered with snow
22:32:23  <TrueBrain> that is a totally different calculation to make :D
22:32:33  <andythenorth> water is already % ?
22:32:40  <frosch123> yes
22:32:50  <frosch123> you can even enter a "custom" percentage
22:32:54  * andythenorth wasn't smoking crack then :)
22:33:03  <TrueBrain> it makes a histogram already
22:33:09  <frosch123> you can probably use the same algorithm for snow area
22:33:20  <TrueBrain> that would greatly change what it means
22:33:23  <andythenorth> it has been quite a wtf? day :P
22:33:27  <andythenorth> don't trust my eyes
22:33:31  <TrueBrain> people will still want to set the height level, as that is what they are used to etc
22:34:05  <TrueBrain> I think it is sensible to have them all equal, btw
22:34:14  <frosch123> not changing something because "you are used to it" is stupid
22:34:31  <TrueBrain> but not thinking already about how we deal with those stupid people, is also stupid :)
22:34:37  <frosch123> it's okay if people want to play on a certain type of map
22:35:01  <TrueBrain> glx: who was toying with histograms a few weeks back?
22:35:01  <frosch123> but changing units from height-level to percentag does not change that
22:35:04  <TrueBrain> I remember you giving feedback on it
22:35:06  <TrueBrain> remember the PR?
22:35:07  <frosch123> they just have to try new values
22:35:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: and do we do the same with desert?
22:35:31  <spnda> does bananas-api not like a tag like "Test             3"?
22:35:36  <TrueBrain> to just equal the field there?
22:36:27  <frosch123> why not?
22:36:42  <TrueBrain> sounds sane to me, honestly
22:36:46  <TrueBrain> people can pick full-snow
22:36:47  <TrueBrain> no snow
22:36:50  <TrueBrain> and the map-type they want
22:37:01  <frosch123> "percentage desert" is way better than "height for rain-forest", because rain-forest is way too obscure
22:37:05  <TrueBrain> adding a "custom highest peak" over very flat / flat / .., would make a lot of people happy too
22:37:29  <spnda> ayyyy my cli can now update package info
22:37:31  <TrueBrain> guess we move "max height" to settings in this scenario too?
22:37:42  <frosch123> does flat/hilly/mountainious only affect highest-peak?
22:37:47  <frosch123> or does it also change frequencies?
22:38:01  <TrueBrain> good question, it does two things, I keep forgetting that
22:38:23  <TrueBrain> no, I am wrong
22:38:27  <TrueBrain> only highest peak
22:38:28  <frosch123> you cannot scale the elevation just like that, or you get those ugly long slopes
22:38:42  <glx> I don't remember anything about histograms
22:38:53  <TrueBrain> glx: hmm ..
22:38:58  <TrueBrain> someone was doing something with the height of the map
22:39:06  <TrueBrain> and it was dreadfully slow
22:39:13  <TrueBrain> but .. GitHub search is not helping :D
22:39:20  <glx> oh, probably samu
22:39:37  <frosch123> iirc tgp generated the height in 16bit first, then picks a sea-level that results in the sea-percentage
22:39:58  <glx> I think it was auto snow height
22:40:07  <TrueBrain> ah, so something similar
22:40:09  <TrueBrain> tnx glx
22:40:45  <spnda> TrueBrain: I assume one archives a bananas package with doing the update request and setting 'archived' to true?
22:41:12  <TrueBrain> archived has to be done via Pull Request atm I think? Not sure if the API supports it, and the frontend-web doesn't, or both don't
22:41:14  <TrueBrain> try it
22:41:18  <TrueBrain> stop asking me stuff you can test :P
22:41:20  <TrueBrain> :D
22:41:27  <TrueBrain> like I know what we wrote 6 months ago
22:41:57  <glx> IIRC it was counting all heights and analysing distribution to determine best snow line
22:42:07  <TrueBrain> frosch123: TGP generates the map, then sinks the map to get to the water percentage
22:42:10  <TrueBrain> it is pretty neat :)
22:42:55  <TrueBrain> owh, no, it scales it
22:43:01  <TrueBrain> reading is hard
22:43:09  <TrueBrain> that also heavily influences highest peak?
22:43:36  <TrueBrain> but yeah, a percentage snow is easy to implement I think
22:43:39  <TrueBrain> percentage desert too
22:45:59  <andythenorth> minimum lake size? :P
22:46:05  * andythenorth unreasonable feature requests
22:46:05  <spnda> TrueBrain: Either it didn't show or I can't see it, is why I am asking
22:46:10  <spnda> doesn't show*
22:46:19  <TrueBrain> then it is via PR only :)
22:46:29  <spnda> :(
22:46:41  <TrueBrain> you are free to contribute to bananas-api :)
22:46:42  <frosch123> so tropic: configurable percentage of sea, fixed distance between sea and deset, configurable percentage of desert, rest rain-forest ?
22:47:04  <TrueBrain> "fixed distance between sea and desert", what do you mean?
22:47:14  <andythenorth> strip of green coast?
22:47:19  <frosch123> there are 4 areas in tropic
22:47:20  <spnda> I want to get this CLI to have implemented all the functionality it can before I get myself together to write python to pr sth into bananas-api
22:47:25  <spnda> also have school stuff I need to finish
22:47:32  <frosch123> sea, normal, desert, rain-forest
22:47:43  <TrueBrain> there is "normal" too? Lol
22:47:58  <andythenorth> normal is green, but grows different trees?
22:48:12  <TrueBrain> owh, I always considered normal and rain-forest the same :D
22:48:20  <frosch123> nope :p
22:48:24  <frosch123> very different in fact
22:48:27  <TrueBrain> right, yes, that makes it a bit more difficult indeed
22:48:36  <TrueBrain> the other way around: % normal, % rain-forest
22:48:38  <andythenorth> 'biomes or bust'?
22:48:41  <andythenorth> oof RIP
22:48:51  <frosch123> TropicZone has some docs about it
22:48:54  <TrueBrain> % normal is weird, it is not based on heightlevel :P
22:49:07  <frosch123> rain-forest has special effects, like extra tree growth, and ambient sounds
22:49:27  <TrueBrain> how is desert done now, hmm
22:49:33  <TrueBrain>
22:49:36  <TrueBrain> that comment is priceless
22:49:40  <frosch123> normal is not really important, just some separation to make desert not touch the sea, because we have no sprites for that :p
22:49:41  <TrueBrain> especially in the current context :)
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22:51:30  <andythenorth> that comment :P
22:51:31  <TrueBrain> can we say for % desert that normal is also part of that %
22:51:33  <andythenorth> I have seen before :P
22:51:34  <TrueBrain> or would that be too far off?
22:52:02  <andythenorth> I enjoy never having seen a flat valley between 2 mountains in game ever using TGP
22:52:12  <frosch123> on 64x64 it's probably off in all cases :p
22:52:53  <TrueBrain> currently everything is normal first
22:53:05  <TrueBrain> desert done up to 1/4th of the map
22:53:09  <TrueBrain> rest rain forest
22:54:12  <TrueBrain> _make_desert_or_rainforest_data is such a lovely table
22:54:23  <TrueBrain> no information what it does, nothing :D
22:54:55  <TrueBrain> damn, that is inefficient, holy crap
22:55:02  <TrueBrain> fort every tile it checks all neighbour tiles if they are not water
22:55:04  <TrueBrain> to make it desert
22:55:07  <TrueBrain> sure, it works, but boyyyyy
22:55:12  <frosch123> widelands shows percentages for all terrain types, the last one is computed as "left over", but still shown
22:55:30  <TrueBrain> the issue here is that "normal" cannot really be a %, right?
22:56:19  <frosch123> normal and rain-forest are too obscure. i doubt anyone knows their existence, unless they read the code
22:56:27  <frosch123> desert is very noticeable :p
22:56:47  <frosch123> so, yes, normal should be "fixed", and rainforest should be "rest"
22:56:54  <TrueBrain> so I think we could just cheat a bit
22:57:00  <TrueBrain> and act like normal is part of the desert %
22:57:15  <TrueBrain> it finds the correct heightlevel to get close to that % anyway
22:57:22  <TrueBrain> so I doubt you can measure that effect :P
22:57:46  <TrueBrain> that would make implementing it easy
22:57:49  <TrueBrain> as we have the histogram
22:59:07  <frosch123> sea level and desert can use the 16bit tgp height. just snow level has to use a real height level in-game
22:59:50  <TrueBrain> what is the difference there?
23:00:16  <frosch123> tropic zone is stored by tile, and not changed in-game
23:00:43  <TrueBrain> we can simply convert the TGP height-level to a real height-level for snow, not?
23:00:49  <frosch123> but snowyness changes, when terraforming or when variable snowline
23:01:22  <TrueBrain> I do not follow; I think I miss some information here :D
23:01:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i mean: if the map had 50% of tiles at height 1, 50% of tiles at height 2, you cannot achieve 10% snow
23:01:47  <frosch123> only 0%, 50% or 100%
23:01:52  <TrueBrain> absolutely
23:02:04  <frosch123> but for sea and desert you do not have that problem
23:02:14  <TrueBrain> desert is also height-based, currently
23:02:15  <frosch123> because it can use higher-precision height
23:02:24  <TrueBrain> it is done long after TGP
23:02:33  <frosch123> yes, but that is changeable :)
23:02:38  <TrueBrain> is it?
23:02:45  <TrueBrain> hmm, I guess
23:02:55  <TrueBrain> that is incredibly difficult, I think
23:03:10  <frosch123> really?
23:03:11  <TrueBrain> as you need to store the original height up to the point you can set the tile-type
23:03:44  <TrueBrain> CreateDesertOrRainForest() currently runs after terrain generator
23:03:45  <frosch123> it's the same as sea, isn't it?
23:03:46  <supermop_Home> whoa i missed a lot
23:03:49  <TrueBrain> because .. original terrain generator :P
23:04:09  <TrueBrain> sea is only scaling the map, not?
23:04:22  <TrueBrain> which is done by TGP
23:04:25  <frosch123> don't you have to rewrite CreateDesertOrRainForest when making desert a percentage?
23:04:32  <TrueBrain> not really
23:04:37  <TrueBrain> uint max_desert_height = CeilDiv(, 4);
23:04:40  <TrueBrain> only thing that needs changing
23:04:45  <frosch123> hmm, ok, i assumed you would set tropiczone directly after tgp
23:04:48  <TrueBrain> _desert_line_height :P
23:04:54  <frosch123> and remove the old stuff
23:05:05  <TrueBrain> I had no intentions of making my life more difficult :D
23:05:08  <TrueBrain> but I like your idea honestly
23:05:14  <TrueBrain> just not sure it looks nice
23:05:16  <andythenorth> I thought we had signed up for biomes or bust?
23:05:20  <andythenorth> and I was drawing new sprites?
23:05:23  <TrueBrain> it would make a blocky desert/tropic line
23:05:40  * andythenorth looks forward to snow in desert
23:05:45  <andythenorth> and hot spring in arctic
23:05:47  <TrueBrain> either way, I still like the idea
23:05:50  <TrueBrain> but it is an addition :D
23:06:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there are half-desert tiles
23:06:26  <frosch123> the transition works fine everywhere, doesn't it?
23:06:45  <TrueBrain> hard to explain wat I mean, honestly :D I cannot really put it in words :P
23:06:56  <TrueBrain> but I do like your idea, but not for iteration #1 :D
23:07:04  <andythenorth>
23:07:18  *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC
23:07:30  <TrueBrain> (as in, I can cheapskate my way out of it for now, so at least we can see how that looks/feels)
23:09:00  <TrueBrain>
23:09:02  <TrueBrain> in summary, right?
23:09:16  *** jact[m] has joined #openttd
23:10:07  <TrueBrain> minor updates
23:10:53  <spnda> How would one add a new update for a package? Just tried it using the same name and all, There's now 2 here.
23:11:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: which of those happen for 1.11?
23:11:18  <TrueBrain> all
23:11:21  <TrueBrain> what I wrote is trivial
23:11:48  <andythenorth> seems rational
23:11:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: be careful with custom highest-peak
23:12:02  <frosch123> you cannot have hieght 200 on a 64x64 map :p
23:12:08  <TrueBrain> spnda: I have no clue what you are trying to ask, sorry :(
23:12:18  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you can, but .. it won't be that high :P
23:12:22  <TrueBrain> okay, warning for that too :D
23:12:23  <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: Ooh, I like that.
23:12:41  <Timberwolf> Could do some interesting things on 1024x256 (or similar) maps with freeform edges.
23:12:51  <spnda> TrueBrain: I'm trying to add a new version, e.g. 0.2, to a NewGRF that is at version 0.1. So it is an update. I don't see a way of doing it per the update part of the API, neither through the new part of it. So how would one do it?
23:12:56  <frosch123> spnda: the unique-id is the key, name is just an attribute
23:13:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: very well, seems good
23:13:07  * Timberwolf basically took one look and went, "excellent, ways to break it and then complain"
23:13:09  <spnda> frosch123: It errors if I give it an unique-id in the body
23:13:14  <LordAro> better get on that quickly :)
23:13:26  <frosch123> spnda: unique-id for newgrf is the grfid
23:13:29  <Timberwolf> But seriously it looks good, fixes most of the grumbles I have about terrain gen :)
23:13:33  <LordAro> needs as much testing as well can manage
23:13:42  <LordAro> as we*
23:13:51  <Timberwolf>
23:13:51  <spnda> frosch123: Oh, so if I upload the same GRF with the same grfid, it will update it as an update?
23:14:00  <frosch123> yes
23:14:01  <Timberwolf> Ack, stupid over-eager paste.
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23:14:17  <spnda> And I cannot force it to also do it with a grfid update?
23:14:18  <frosch123> different grf-id, different entry
23:14:31  <frosch123> no, that would be replaced_by
23:14:38  <spnda> ah right
23:14:40  <spnda> thanks a lot
23:14:44  <frosch123> and is DISENCOURAGED for 10 YEARS
23:15:02  <frosch123> was i clear enough? :p
23:15:11  <spnda> yeah, definitely
23:15:28  <frosch123> grfids are not for versioning, we have action14 version for that
23:15:30  <TrueBrain> yeah ... the times people made a new grfid every upload ..
23:15:31  <TrueBrain> good times
23:15:38  <spnda> i'm gonna check how bananas-api extracts the GRFID, so I can replicate that here so I don't allow the same GRFID being uploaded.
23:15:59  <frosch123> what are you doing?
23:16:30  <spnda> a bananas-cli, similar to bananas-frontend-cli and back then, musa
23:16:39  <spnda> but in a modern fashion and with interactiveness
23:16:45  <spnda> see
23:16:46  <TrueBrain> sadly not written in Python :P
23:16:52  <spnda> 'sadly'
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23:16:57  <TrueBrain> :D :D
23:17:00  <TrueBrain> sorry, had to troll :P
23:18:19  <frosch123> ok, no idea why you implement something like that, but have fun :)
23:18:29  <andythenorth> newgrf terrain gen when?
23:18:39  <andythenorth> oh wait, it's all fine, just has a weird UI :P
23:18:41  <spnda> I want to differentiate between new package and new package update, so I can make it easier for the user
23:19:10  <spnda> as in the commands etc
23:19:23  <TrueBrain> okay .. if I change snow_line_height in settings_game .. that does not change it for new games, right?
23:19:35  <frosch123> i don't get "cli+interactive". either i want a non-interactive cli for scripting, or i want an interactive web-interface
23:19:36  <spnda> so one can just write "bananas manage", then click "update package" and only get the options that are relevant for that
23:19:41  <TrueBrain> or should I store this in a new global, and save that in the savegame?
23:19:49  <frosch123> "interactive cli" is weird to me. but you do you :)
23:19:58  <TrueBrain> (in other words, can I abuse settings to store these values, as they are no longer settings)
23:20:10  <spnda> I mean, it's based on, and I quite like that one too
23:20:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: snow line is evaluted during the game?
23:20:45  <TrueBrain> not on load game?
23:20:45  <frosch123> i don't understand your question
23:20:51  <TrueBrain> that would mean it changes when you load the game :P
23:20:54  <frosch123> snowline is in the tile loop
23:21:05  <frosch123> tiles get resnowed when bulldozed
23:21:21  <frosch123> you can terraform them to different height, and the will resnow
23:21:36  <TrueBrain> yes, we are talking about two completely different things now :D
23:21:49  <TrueBrain> after TGP has run, I calculate snow_line_height based on the percentage
23:21:55  <TrueBrain> I need to store this in the savegame somewhere
23:22:00  <TrueBrain> I can abuse _settings_game.game_creation.snow_line_height for this
23:22:04  <TrueBrain> but it is no longer a setting
23:22:37  <frosch123> i think we already do that somewhere else :p
23:22:43  <TrueBrain> that doesn't make it okay :D
23:22:48  <TrueBrain> I also have to add desert_line_height
23:22:53  <frosch123> also, can we block spnda spamming bananas-staging failure mails? :p
23:22:56  <TrueBrain> so I can just make it a new blob somewhere
23:23:07  <spnda> oh no
23:23:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha :D Well, honestly, I should fix those problems
23:23:50  <spnda> i mean it's mostly stuff like '/new-package/tus' missing the last slash after 'tus' throwing a 404 error
23:23:58  <spnda> which is weird anyway?
23:24:12  <frosch123> anyway, night
23:24:14  <TrueBrain> no, what frosch123 refers to, is that after a new upload, we poke the server to reload his database
23:24:15  <TrueBrain> night frosch123
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23:24:22  <TrueBrain> if this happens too often, failures happen
23:24:32  <spnda> hmm? what do you mean
23:24:38  <TrueBrain>
23:24:42  <TrueBrain> it is an infra thing
23:24:45  <TrueBrain> nothing to worry about
23:24:52  <spnda> oh didn't even notice
23:25:01  <TrueBrain> you do not
23:25:02  <TrueBrain> we do :)
23:25:08  <spnda> yes that would be me testing my update commands
23:25:16  <TrueBrain> owh, wait, ALL server reloads fail
23:25:16  <TrueBrain> oops
23:25:17  <spnda> more like github does, all those actions lol
23:25:18  <TrueBrain> that is another bug
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23:25:46  <andythenorth> ok the TGP show ended
23:25:50  * andythenorth should go to bed
23:25:58  <andythenorth> it's a nice box set though, recommended
23:26:11  <andythenorth> plenty of online discussion about it
23:26:12  <spnda> hmm I can't find any code reading the grfid from grfs in the bananas-api or bananas-server... interesting
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23:28:01  <TrueBrain> right, this should fix the GHA failures
23:28:18  <TrueBrain> spnda:
23:28:45  <spnda> oh god what the hell is that file
23:28:56  <TrueBrain> to be very exact, in case of NewGRFs
23:29:21  <spnda> ok I think I've decided to *not* do it like this
23:29:46  <TrueBrain> its a free world!
23:29:47  <spnda> Just thought if I could possible just get the new package info after uploading, see if the unique-id differs, and then just delete the file and cancel the publish
23:30:17  <spnda> ah yes that works
23:30:19  <TrueBrain> "An error occurred (ResourceNotReadyException) when calling the Invoke operation (reached max retries: 4): Resources for the function are being restored."
23:30:26  <TrueBrain> wtf AWS, that is not .. what I expected :P
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23:36:03  <TrueBrain> right, fixed BaNaNaS-staging for real now :)
23:37:16  <spnda> and I finally just pushed my updating command for my cli
23:37:20  <spnda> time for my first release, I guess
23:39:28  <TrueBrain> hmm, we have no saveload chunk for "random globals"
23:41:48  <spnda> haha look at the tags
23:42:18  <TrueBrain> bugs go to the issue tracker
23:44:05  <spnda> is that really a bug?
23:44:11  <spnda> I think I just gave it a list of empty strings
23:44:23  <spnda> but not sure
23:44:25  <TrueBrain> I think it should not allow empty strings, yes :)
23:45:23  <spnda> I think it was more a bug of my application converting ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Test" to "                                Test" (or similar)
23:45:31  <spnda> so consequently I've fixed that
23:45:38  <TrueBrain> still, the API should not allow such nonsense :P
23:48:55  <TrueBrain> I cannot believe the biggest trouble I have with my gist is to find a place to store 2 values :P
23:49:51  <TrueBrain> I guess in Save_MAPS
23:49:56  <spnda> Does bananas have an icon?
23:50:10  <TrueBrain> another question I don't even know how to answer :D
23:50:21  <TrueBrain> we really should fix those mind-read machines :P
23:50:33  <TrueBrain> what kind of icon are you referring to? :)
23:51:37  <spnda> Just any, really.
23:51:42  <spnda> Thinking about an icon for my bananas-cli
23:51:50  <TrueBrain> application icon, okay that already helps
23:51:59  <TrueBrain> you could also mean does it support icons for NewGRFs or favicons, or :P
23:52:16  <TrueBrain> we use the OpenTTD icon for everything nowedays, so no, nothing specific for BaNaNaS
23:52:34  <spnda> oh crap, what license am I gonna use for this....
23:52:38  <spnda> thinking of just GPL v3
23:52:57  <spnda> or MIT
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