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"why release it only now, and not sooner" vs "why release it at all because you don't hit any checkmarks on my very-important list" 12:00:58 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: it is not about that :) It is about being aggressive, that we are not allowed on Steam because we don't have any of these :P 12:01:14 <TrueBrain> Also called: gatekeeping :) 12:01:20 <TrueBrain> did I write gatewaying? lol .. oops 12:02:18 <andythenorth> I think I am going to not read steam discussions 12:02:25 <TrueBrain> most are pretty nice 12:02:32 <TrueBrain> just some are as much out there as tt-forums 12:02:43 <FLHerne> I guess the reply is "Exposure to new players, convenient for people who use Steam already and like everything in the same place; also we hope to add some of those things in future" 12:02:56 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: there is no valid reply to such post 12:02:57 <FLHerne> hm 12:02:59 <FLHerne> thought 12:03:27 <TrueBrain> well, the only reply is: "I am sorry, you are right, we will remove it immediately" :P 12:03:53 <FLHerne> I assume Steam does automatic updates, and gives you the latest version; how does that if you want to play on a server of a different version? 12:04:12 <FLHerne> e.g. for the first week or so after a new release when the servers haven't updated yet 12:04:20 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: strictly seen we could make every version available, Factorio does this for major releases 12:04:30 <TrueBrain> but that is an issue for 1.12, rather than a now issue 12:04:42 <FLHerne> sure 12:05:03 <Samu> the obsession with JGR's PP disgusts me 12:05:11 <TrueBrain> the biggest thing to keep in mind with release on such platforms: keep your ambitious in check; keep it small, keep it simple 12:05:27 <TrueBrain> as who knows what a month from now brings :) 12:05:51 <Samu> this is the real game, not JGRs 12:06:01 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that said, it is of course something to track for the next release :) 12:06:10 <andythenorth> this is a much better "Why Bother?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z64z8Rcb-Pc 12:10:51 <TrueBrain> that post just keeps cracking me up :D It is such gatekeeping .. we are not allowed to spend our time how we want, because we don't comply with a list someone else made up :D I dunno why it makes me laugh, but it does :) 12:19:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 12:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> typically, older versions are offered via the "betas" tab on steam 12:43:41 <andythenorth> oops 12:43:46 * andythenorth rage quits blitz 12:43:51 <andythenorth> can't be doing with other people 12:44:02 <TrueBrain> I made a reply :D 12:44:10 <andythenorth> MMORGs are not compatible with 'I hate everybody' :) 12:44:26 <andythenorth> although they do seem to attract moronic sociopaths in truckloads 12:45:04 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh dear 12:45:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain that is just being reasonable 12:45:09 <andythenorth> please 12:45:11 <LordAro> i think you just fed the troll 12:45:18 <andythenorth> I don't like to see people being reasonable 12:45:19 <TrueBrain> LordAro: how so? 12:45:34 <LordAro> by spending all that time and effort 12:45:48 <TrueBrain> am I wrong? :D 12:45:53 <andythenorth> nope 12:46:06 <andythenorth> is it lunchtime? 12:46:31 * andythenorth has newgrf chores 12:46:36 <andythenorth> can only be faced with lunch 12:46:41 <TrueBrain> LordAro: now we can just redirect to a place whenever this comes up again 12:46:43 <TrueBrain> and that will happen :P 13:00:29 <TrueBrain> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YntUDkGOpys <- that is funny :) 13:00:36 <TrueBrain> did not know you could make such horrible faces with OpenTTD :) 13:01:20 <TrueBrain> https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/mdpb4f/ships_now_have_the_chance_to_get_stuck_in_canals/ <- I just love how many people joked about this already :D 13:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i still dislike opengfx... it looks all washed and dull... 13:02:46 <TrueBrain> feel free to make an alternative set :D 13:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also, driving on left freaks me out 13:14:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain commented on pull request #43: Add: pass upload date to OpenTTD client https://git.io/JYsCc 13:16:36 <andythenorth> so I fell in a newgrf hole 13:16:41 <andythenorth> and need talking off a ledge 13:16:54 <andythenorth> before I push the button 13:16:58 <andythenorth> on some unwise choices 13:17:12 <TrueBrain> what is the worst that can happen? (trying to establish risk here) 13:17:15 <TrueBrain> is the ledge 10cm high? 13:17:18 <TrueBrain> or 10 meter? 13:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> don't delete everything. 13:17:23 <TrueBrain> is there a soft pillow below 13:17:25 <TrueBrain> or concrete? 13:17:46 <TrueBrain> or does this sound too much like work, I annoyed you enough, and you just deleted your work instead? 13:19:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7268: Suggestion: Option not to disclose server information when password-protected https://git.io/fhbLp 13:19:30 <andythenorth> there are 2 unrelated problems tangled together 13:19:45 <andythenorth> 10 years ago I made an unwise choice to adjust the payment rate for pax in FIRS 13:19:49 <andythenorth> compared to default 13:19:56 <andythenorth> I don't know why, they commit is unclear 13:20:09 <andythenorth> this means that FIRS messes up passenger vehicle balancing for all grfs 13:20:20 <andythenorth> issue 1 13:21:00 <andythenorth> also for FIRS 4, the payment rates are adjusted algorithmically as needed (compile time) so that cargos don't overlap on the cargo payment chart in game 13:21:02 <andythenorth> issue 2 13:21:21 <andythenorth> I don't know if I should fix issue 1 or not 13:21:31 <andythenorth> FIRS is so dominant that many vehicle sets might be balanced for it 13:21:42 <TrueBrain> hahaha, you created an issue yourself, impressive :D 13:21:46 <michi_cc> 90% (number made up, but probably not that far off) of all GRFs ever make are unbalanced as hell anyway, so why care? 13:21:47 <andythenorth> and it has been forked to make XIS etc, which will have kept the costs 13:22:06 <andythenorth> if I do fix issue 1, I have to make a decision about issue 2 13:22:15 <andythenorth> is it stupid or not? 13:22:28 <TrueBrain> honestly, I would do what makes your GRF the most worth 13:22:38 <andythenorth> I can't match default game pax rate if the algorithm adjusts it 13:22:43 <TrueBrain> if others depend on your behaviour, that is a problem you cannot address 13:22:54 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD itself is full of this stuff, that we cannot change stuff because it breaks NNNN 13:22:59 <TrueBrain> don't make your GRF part of that ecosystem :) 13:23:24 <michi_cc> Mathematical solution suggestion: Fix pax payment and let the algorithm balance all other cargoes relative to that. 13:23:30 <TrueBrain> and for 2, block a band around pax rate in your algorithm 13:23:40 <TrueBrain> exactly what michi_cc says :D 13:23:51 <andythenorth> I could probably prevent a cargo being adjusted 13:24:16 <andythenorth> the problem shows up in constant reports that Iron Horse doesn't make any more 13:24:19 <andythenorth> money * 13:24:24 <andythenorth> with pax 13:24:28 <andythenorth> because players aren't using FIRS 13:25:22 <andythenorth> I get a lot of balancing requests, but I really don't know how to solve them 13:25:41 <andythenorth> it's very puzzling how to provide a gameplay that is both hard and easy 13:25:49 <andythenorth> which is what players want 13:25:57 <andythenorth> and works for all map sizes 13:26:02 <andythenorth> and all daylengths 13:26:13 <andythenorth> and all eras of the game, when relative speeds vary 13:26:18 <andythenorth> and for cdist or not cdist 13:26:35 <andythenorth> I play test stuff for days sometimes, but then I just get more reports of broken 13:28:24 <_dp_> It's not broken, they're just not using it properly :p 13:28:52 <_dp_> there are so many possible newgrf combinations, they can't possibly all provide perfect gameplay 13:29:35 <andythenorth> I hate all the running cost and payment rate stuff so much 13:29:45 <andythenorth> I would just set it all to 0 13:30:44 <andythenorth> anyway I lost my lolz and am currently considering just deleting a bunch of stuff 13:30:47 <michi_cc> Other people solved it like in http://open.ttdrussia.net/dbxl_readme.html#installation (section "Variables to set in ttdpatch.cfg"): "Do this or go away" (translated). 13:30:51 <andythenorth> it all seems to be horribly flawed 13:31:22 <andythenorth> I tried playing tanks instead :P 13:31:31 <andythenorth> but the playerbase is horrible on Saturdays 13:31:38 <andythenorth> also Sundays, and Monday-Friday also 13:39:58 <andythenorth> ok I can disable Iron Horse if correct FIRS version is not present 13:42:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7957: Add a flag to read banned users from a defined file instead of from openttd.cfg https://git.io/JvqkN 13:42:36 <TrueBrain> I replied for you LordAro :) 13:43:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, but by disabling it you'll make it harder to use for people who know what they do ;) 13:43:36 <andythenorth> yes 13:44:03 <andythenorth> it's just an impossible game though 13:44:13 <andythenorth> the win condition is unreachable 13:44:38 <andythenorth> I already started banning FIRS with other train sets 13:45:15 <andythenorth> the only way to avoid bug reports and feedback is to make a single grf for the entire game experience 13:45:40 <_dp_> why bother? if people think it's broken they can use basecosts/write newgrf/etc to fix 13:46:13 <andythenorth> I don't want to make one-big-grf because the compile time will suck 13:46:20 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: FIRS is of a size it is close to a "Total Conversion", yes :) 13:46:29 <andythenorth> how enforceable are the dependencies in Bananas? 13:46:43 <TrueBrain> we do not (yet) have negative dependencies 13:46:47 <TrueBrain> which is an excellent idea to add, honestly 13:47:04 <andythenorth> grf can already disable itself if another grf is found (or not found) 13:47:26 <andythenorth> can I also check for the client? 13:47:30 <TrueBrain> I wish I had more time to fix UX of these screens .. so much work to do there :D 13:47:41 * andythenorth wonders how JGRPP reports client version 13:47:46 <andythenorth> FIRS needs to be banned in JGRPP 13:47:52 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:49:50 <andythenorth> hmm 13:49:59 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Washed-out and realistic :p 13:50:03 <andythenorth> andythenorth is definitely falling into the "OzTrans Vortex" 13:50:12 <andythenorth> increasingly irrational assertions 13:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a good place to be in 13:50:24 <andythenorth> irritation at any player feedback even if well intended 13:50:26 <andythenorth> paranoia 13:50:34 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 13:50:38 <andythenorth> destructive idea of just deleting crap 13:50:58 <andythenorth> insistence that grf can only work together if all made by one person 13:51:01 <andythenorth> where did the lolz go? 13:51:23 <andythenorth> 404: lolz not found 13:51:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's true, honestly 13:51:32 <andythenorth> 503: sense of humour returned an error 13:52:05 <FLHerne> If players want to combine a hundred grfs in a way that makes no sense, let them 13:52:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYs0z 13:52:26 <FLHerne> It might be fun, and they might not care about the problems, and if they do it's their own fault 13:52:56 <FLHerne> Avoiding the most obvious n00b-foot-shooting problems, sure 13:53:09 <TrueBrain> the problem is you have to deal with the bugs they report, because they did something stupid 13:53:20 <TrueBrain> if there was no way to report bugs, that approach would work :) 13:53:39 <FLHerne> But people downloading tons of grfs can sort their own mess out to whatever degree satisfies them 13:54:02 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:54:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:59:05 <andythenorth> ok...so does anyone know _why_ FIRS sets pax payment rate higher? https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/commit/987c2086d558c4ec910e4b5c1a4860641b78e277 13:59:15 <andythenorth> maybe forum thread will tell me 14:01:25 <glx> tab to align tables is not a good idea (as shown in github diff ;) ) 14:01:30 <TrueBrain> you hope someone else can tell you why you did something 10 years ago? :D 14:03:40 <andythenorth> hmm version 0.6 14:04:05 <andythenorth> "Rebalanced cargo payment rates for better gameplay" 14:04:19 <TrueBrain> there you have it! 14:04:20 <andythenorth> thanks andythenorth great explanation 14:04:29 <TrueBrain> past-you is such a dick 14:04:41 <andythenorth> really true 14:04:54 <andythenorth> and future me hates me, so they're a dick too 14:05:39 <andythenorth> can't believe nobody complained about this until now 14:05:42 <andythenorth> not me 14:05:44 <andythenorth> the payment rate 14:07:00 <andythenorth> 10 years for somebody to file a detailed bug report https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1242877#p1242877 14:07:23 <andythenorth> which wasn't about what they thought it was 14:07:27 * TrueBrain looks at "maximum map height", and shrugs 14:07:37 <TrueBrain> 10 years is normal :P 14:08:33 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 14:08:38 <supermop_Home> hi 14:08:41 <andythenorth> 10 year bug half-life 14:09:00 <andythenorth> hi supermop_Home 14:10:28 <reldred> Yeah, I had the suburban stations as ‘surburban’ for about ten years and nobody fucking told me 14:11:29 <supermop_Home> hi andy 14:11:42 <andythenorth> goes it throw out concept of cost balancing? 14:11:48 <andythenorth> I really can't be arsed to do the following 14:12:05 <andythenorth> 1. delete restaurant cars from Iron Horse (involves a manual revert of sprites) 14:12:14 <andythenorth> 2. reset FIRS pax cost 14:12:20 <andythenorth> 3. reset Iron Horse running costs 14:12:32 <andythenorth> 4. check other grfs I made for similar problems 14:13:00 <TrueBrain> so don't 14:13:49 <andythenorth> is there a defined balance somewhere in the wiki or the code? 14:13:58 <andythenorth> e.g. vehicle profit must be x for specific conditions? 14:14:24 <andythenorth> the high score table calculation must know? 14:16:46 <supermop_Home> you know there isn't 14:17:58 <andythenorth> "5. Accelerated cargo aging makes trains less competitive than other means of transport." 14:18:12 <andythenorth> implies there is some known balance? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1242877#p1242877 14:18:18 <TrueBrain> isn't one of the win conditions to have all trains profit N amount? :P 14:18:18 * andythenorth just confused by the whole thing TBH 14:18:23 <andythenorth> TrueBrain yes 14:18:47 <andythenorth> that's met by winning the other goals, then scrapping all non-compliant vehicles in one rapid set of actions 14:18:52 * andythenorth won the game once 14:18:56 <andythenorth> to see if it could be done 14:19:02 <andythenorth> the goals are easily gamed 14:19:03 <TrueBrain> I did the same 14:19:04 <TrueBrain> in 2005 :P 14:19:06 <andythenorth> it's a game lol :P 14:19:12 <andythenorth> game can be gamed, shock me 14:19:21 <TrueBrain> rebranding OpenTTD as sandbox and removing all that shit, yes yes? :D 14:19:31 <TrueBrain> I marked it as "sandbox" game on Steam :P 14:19:43 <andythenorth> seriously considering 0 running costs for vehicles 14:19:53 <andythenorth> I hate all the economy stuff 14:20:07 <andythenorth> real economy is tile space and vehicle route contention 14:20:26 <Tulitomaatti> the game kinda becomes a sandbox after one sets up a few coal-powerplant -lines up, at least on most default rules, especially without breakdowns. 14:20:35 <andythenorth> gold and gems are tiles space and avoiding too much congestion 14:20:47 <andythenorth> 'money' are just those stupid tokens you can trade for badges or new camos 14:21:55 <andythenorth> hmm 14:24:46 <andythenorth> lol did I really set coffee as the highest paying cargo? 14:24:50 <andythenorth> I think that was a private joke 14:25:15 <andythenorth> if I was forced to choose between my daily dose of coffee or crack I'd choose the coffee 14:26:49 <Wolf01> It's useless to get addicted to 2 different drugs ;) 14:28:52 <supermop_Home> coffeetown 14:29:32 <supermop_Home> coffee-> roaster -> software office or airplane factory 14:29:38 <Wolf01> <Tulitomaatti> the game kinda becomes a sandbox after one sets up a few coal-powerplant -lines up <- yeah I would like to skip even those 14:29:53 <andythenorth> I do need to do something about FIRS payments though 14:30:14 <andythenorth> am releasing 4.0.0 Thursday, so today is the ideal day to make large last minute changes 14:30:49 <TrueBrain> we did it yesterday too :P 14:31:31 <andythenorth> there's always 4.0.1 :P 14:31:35 <andythenorth> common andythenorth pattern 14:32:10 <andythenorth> major version FIRS releases always become a millstone :) 14:32:16 <andythenorth> 2 years or so usually 14:33:27 <andythenorth> ok, yolo changes incoming 14:36:36 <_dp_> fucking irc losing messages :/ 14:36:41 <_dp_> <_dp_> what is balance when there is no economy? :p 14:36:42 <_dp_> <_dp_> I'm balancing 1 mil server for a year and it's still shit 14:36:42 <_dp_> <_dp_> and you want some kind of universal balance to exist :p 14:37:24 <andythenorth> no LC and similar players want a universal balance to exist 14:37:31 <andythenorth> and they want me or someone else to provide it 14:37:37 <_dp_> fuck lc :p 14:38:30 <andythenorth> not sure "no pony" gif quite applies here 14:38:33 <andythenorth> maybe this one? https://media.tenor.com/images/c1246748fcc8c37049a17001e3e93594/tenor.gif 14:52:47 <TrueBrain> so they want free labour? 14:52:50 <TrueBrain> :D 14:59:10 <frosch123> can i mail you my dishes for cleaning? 14:59:26 <TrueBrain> sure 14:59:37 <TrueBrain> you expect them back? Hmm ...... interesting :D 15:01:40 <_dp_> I... now have a question... 15:01:46 <frosch123> factorio made 3 releases last wednesday :p 15:01:57 <TrueBrain> wow, what broke? :D 15:02:04 <_dp_> if you mail someone your dirty dishes what is weirder, to expect them back or not to? 15:02:13 <TrueBrain> and cleaned or not? :D 15:02:13 <frosch123> no idea, but they have a very andy approach to releases 15:02:58 <frosch123> i thought it was a friendly exchange, i mail you my dishes, you mail me your dishes 15:04:33 <frosch123> "Added mod dependency modifier "~", which marks the mod as required, but doesn't affect mod loading order, so these kind of dependencies can be circular." <- everyone has the same problems :) 15:06:16 <frosch123> ah, the 3 releases were a "commit before tag" issue 15:06:23 <frosch123> that's new :p 15:08:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8894: Replace IConsolePrint*(F)( calls with specific console level calls https://git.io/JYsKZ 15:10:19 <TrueBrain> what are you talking about frosch123 ? :D 15:10:21 <LordAro> TrueBrain: thanks :) 15:10:26 <LordAro> TrueBrain: and yes, your comment is better 15:10:41 <TrueBrain> \o/ 15:11:36 <frosch123> fun fact: one of the recent translator signups has translation changes between 2007 and 2009 15:11:47 <TrueBrain> wauw 15:11:59 <frosch123> inactive for 12 years :p 15:33:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] supermop commented on pull request #63: Change: Improved infra06.png Monorail and Maglev roof sprites https://git.io/JYsX8 15:50:17 <frosch123> so, we had 93 translator signups in 2020Q4, 40 were active since then 15:51:37 <frosch123> some were a few days after signup, some after the RC reminder 15:53:49 <TrueBrain> LordAro: isn't WARN_FORMAT taking care of the warnings? The function is not defined in the header (so could be static I guess); the other functions all have WARN_FORMAT 15:53:50 <TrueBrain> dunno 15:54:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: <50% 15:54:07 <TrueBrain> that is .. worse than I expected 15:54:17 <TrueBrain> guess after signup they were like: holy crap, eeeuuuuhhhhh 15:54:21 <TrueBrain> "over their head" effect? 15:54:41 <frosch123> well, there is also a major percentage of people who never accept their invitation 15:55:16 <TrueBrain> reminds me, we should poke them again, one last time :) 15:55:50 <frosch123> maybe we do a cleanup after a year or so 15:56:11 <frosch123> multiple people were active in svn age, but did not use eints yet 15:56:24 <frosch123> some signed up early, but only became active recently 15:56:47 <frosch123> others may take some time to convert "wanting" into "doing" :p 16:02:54 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 16:02:56 <TrueBrain> okay, made a funny post in translators Team :P 16:03:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Milek7 opened issue #172: [pl_PL] Translator access request https://git.io/JYs9L 16:03:53 <TrueBrain> ooeehh, we get to test /deny? :D :P :P Sorry, trolling :) 16:04:11 <frosch123> our lord tested it before 16:04:24 <TrueBrain> owh, that is true 16:04:27 <TrueBrain> I forgot about that one 16:04:49 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:07:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain commented on issue #172: [pl_PL] Translator access request https://git.io/JYs9L 16:07:25 <frosch123> really? 28 new strings? 16:07:34 <TrueBrain> there is a reason I am saying: SORRY 16:08:50 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ah, could be 16:09:10 <TrueBrain> I am not sure about that PR btw .. it is now really weird 16:09:27 <TrueBrain> why can't we have 1 function where with CC_ you control what the colour + prefix is? 16:12:52 <TrueBrain> it now goes via 1 function specific for the log level to another specific for the log level to a generic 16:12:59 <TrueBrain> I guess your suggestion of templates would help 16:13:11 <LordAro> yeah... 16:13:25 <LordAro> (and also doesn't fix the ERROR: prefix inconsistency :p 16:13:27 <LordAro> ) 16:13:31 <TrueBrain> no, that is still a mess :D 16:14:04 <TrueBrain> personally, I like it more to have IConsolePrint(CC_ERROR over IConsolePrintError 16:14:08 <TrueBrain> just because it makes it easier to change log level 16:14:23 <TrueBrain> but that is a personal preference .. doesn't make the other way wrong :D 16:14:36 <TrueBrain> right, time for dinner, ME HUNGRY! I COULD EAT A WALRUS! 16:38:46 <andythenorth> ME TOO 16:39:40 <milek7_> hmm, 'maximum map height' was renamed in most places 'map height limit' 16:39:56 <milek7_> but it seems not in cheat window? 16:40:24 <glx> <frosch123> ah, the 3 releases were a "commit before tag" issue <-- reminds me our only 3 dots release 17:05:46 *** Progman has quit IRC 17:14:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] perezdidac commented on pull request #43: Add: pass upload date to OpenTTD client https://git.io/JYspp 18:06:27 * andythenorth has not done any FIRS :P 18:06:29 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth 18:24:41 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 18:31:46 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 18:34:28 <supermop_Home> did you at least eat? 18:44:02 <andythenorth> YES 18:44:18 <andythenorth> had some Pata Negra ham 18:44:20 <andythenorth> some lamb 18:44:27 <andythenorth> some spanish omelette 18:44:33 <andythenorth> some portuges croquettes 18:44:34 <andythenorth> some olives 18:44:42 <andythenorth> need I continue? o_O 18:46:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JYGYs 18:46:52 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 18:47:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:57:56 <TrueBrain> wow, that are a lot of translationsin 1 day :D 18:58:24 <supermop_Home> we had a lot of jamon here too 18:58:35 <supermop_Home> same pig 18:58:56 <supermop_Home> had a canarian wine tasting via zoom 19:02:13 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** Timberwo1f has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** orudge has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** ciet[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** CornsMcGowan[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** fiddeldibu[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** tonyfinn[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** gretel[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** yoltid[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** natmac[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** jeremy[m] has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** Hobbyboy has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** michi_cc has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** Cursarion has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** Artea has quit IRC 19:02:13 *** Progman has quit 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hylshols7qui[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** osvaldo[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** udo[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** phil[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** hamstonkid[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** khavik[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** patrick[m]2 has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** EmeraldSnorlax[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** nolep[m] has joined #openttd 19:04:22 *** ericnoan has joined #openttd 19:05:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v peter1138 19:05:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v orudge 19:05:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v planetmaker 19:24:21 *** J0anJosep has joined #openttd 19:28:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYtXE 19:29:18 <LordAro> TrueBrain: there you go 19:29:53 <LordAro> release thoughts - should we stagger them at all? i.e. nml/ogfx/osfx/omsx on days leading up to ottd release? might simplify things 19:30:31 <TrueBrain> if you want those others released too, yeah, you should 19:30:44 <TrueBrain> doing it all at once is error-prune 19:30:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro approved pull request #58: Fix #49, #51: Correct sprite offsets for toy factory https://git.io/JYGn4 19:30:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYGnB 19:32:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] LordAro approved pull request #39: Prepare: Release 1.0.1 https://git.io/JYGni 19:33:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro commented on pull request #1: Release OpenMSX 0.3.2 https://git.io/JYGnD 19:33:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] LordAro closed pull request #1: Release OpenMSX 0.3.2 https://git.io/JYGny 19:34:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #195: Add: Ground sprite constants for partially cleared tiles https://git.io/JYfCP 19:35:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #195: Add: Ground sprite constants for partially cleared tiles https://git.io/JYftm 19:36:24 <LordAro> now... what else can we fix? 19:36:42 <LordAro> i played around a bit with the _fio stuff... it quickly spirals into a rabbit hole of a huge amount of codechanges 19:37:59 <LordAro> emergency netsave being the titlegame seems bad 19:44:48 *** qwebirc90638 has joined #openttd 19:45:26 <LordAro> C:/msys64/home/LordAro/OpenTTD/src/os/windows/win32.cpp:719:64: warning: missing initializer for member '_OSVERSIONINFOEXW::wSuiteMask' [-Wmissing-field-initializers] 19:45:33 <TrueBrain> it sounds like a niche problem tbh, title game as emergency save 19:45:40 <TrueBrain> like, what are the odds anyone runs into it 19:45:45 <TrueBrain> and wants to open the savegame 19:45:50 <LordAro> is this msys specific, or does it also "affect" msvc? 19:45:52 <TrueBrain> it is one of those ... "we will get to it" bugs :P 19:46:11 <LordAro> i guess 19:48:36 <TrueBrain> I mean, the old emergency save nobody wants to access anymore at that point anyway 19:48:46 <TrueBrain> so I cannot even come up with a use-case where it matters 19:48:50 <TrueBrain> besides .. "it not looking nice" 19:49:13 <LordAro> what do you mean, nobody wants to access? 19:49:31 <TrueBrain> it is an emergency save while you are joining and the server does something weird 19:49:36 <TrueBrain> so you are joining a server, it disconnects you 19:49:42 <TrueBrain> so what is your usecase of accessing the emergency save? 19:49:46 <TrueBrain> you never have been on the server 19:49:49 <TrueBrain> so that cannot be it 19:50:04 <LordAro> oh, is that the only thing that produces it? i was assuming it was also produced if the server died while you were connected or something 19:50:05 <TrueBrain> and any remaining emergency save from an old server you clearly also no longer have an interest in (as you are joining another server) 19:50:14 *** qwebirc90638 has quit IRC 19:50:18 <TrueBrain> only when your client still has the title screen loaded 19:50:23 <TrueBrain> he describes that part pretty well honestly :D 19:50:40 <TrueBrain> it only happens between the game still having the title screen loaded and you downloading the map from the server 20:00:11 <LordAro> in which case... yeah, remove it 20:14:47 <TrueBrain> well, not what I meant, honestly. But it doesn't hurt that it currently overwrites the old emergency in my opinio 20:14:50 <TrueBrain> so we have to fix this properly 20:14:54 <TrueBrain> just .. not with any prio :P 20:17:32 <TrueBrain> the dude that did the english text a while ago wants to give it a spin again 20:17:38 <TrueBrain> I believe we ended with that it was okay what he was doing, right? 20:56:25 *** J0anJosep has quit IRC 20:57:22 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 21:17:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Multitile depots https://git.io/JL5Hh 21:20:53 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:23:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Multitile depots https://git.io/JL5Hh 21:45:01 *** m1cr0man has quit IRC 21:56:27 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: The thing about having a style guide and consistent wording/formatting? 21:58:18 <milek7_> ouch 21:58:23 <milek7_> more gcc11 warnings 22:02:57 <andythenorth> hmm 22:03:51 <andythenorth> I think FIRS increases pax payment compared to default for reasons 22:03:56 <andythenorth> I think it's because the default rate sucks 22:04:59 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:09:08 <FLHerne> That seems surprising 22:09:51 <FLHerne> In stock, passengers are easily the most profitable thing to move 22:10:01 <andythenorth> if fully loaded both ways 22:10:07 <FLHerne> I suppose FIRS gives you more control over industries' production rates 22:10:15 <andythenorth> using something like the SH125 22:10:19 * andythenorth has default game open 22:10:22 <FLHerne> So it's easier to create lots of cargo on the routes you want 22:10:42 <milek7_> https://gist.github.com/Milek7/658c305e4771049bd6f1e718eeb1affc 22:10:44 <FLHerne> which would make passengers less desirable 22:10:47 <andythenorth> the default vehicles are much much cheaper to run than Iron Horse or UKRS etc 22:11:03 <andythenorth> the SH125 is 10x cheaper than the equivalent vehicle in Iron Horse 2 22:11:26 <andythenorth> but the costs are so low that it leaves very small gap between the OP vehicles, and the weaker ones 22:11:51 <FLHerne> I remember that being very noticeable in stock 22:11:54 <andythenorth> so e.g. Dash Diesel is rarely worth using compared to something more powerful 22:11:58 <andythenorth> for very little extra cost 22:12:13 <andythenorth> I remember playing original and trying to make money with DMUs 22:12:17 <FLHerne> There's never a good reason not to buy the fastest, except in the first year or so when you're capital-constrained 22:12:18 <andythenorth> then switching them out 22:12:55 <andythenorth> increasing both the pax payment rate, and the spread of run costs gives more possibilities 22:13:14 <andythenorth> but it leads to spending a lot of time on 'balancing' :x 22:13:19 <andythenorth> oof :) 22:16:05 <_dp_> passengers are only good if towns are at least 1k in size 22:17:28 <andythenorth> bold statement 22:17:59 <andythenorth> I thought it was my job to make grand claims that are obviously wrong? 22:19:26 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:23:12 <LordAro> milek7_: interesting 22:27:39 <milek7_> not sure if gcc is being overly picky again 22:27:44 <milek7_> but I don't quite understand what ZeroedMemoryAllocator does :P 22:36:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened issue #44: Example files to run a workable server https://git.io/JYG6J 22:36:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain closed issue #44: Example files to run a workable server https://git.io/JYG6J 22:41:19 *** JGR has joined #openttd 22:48:02 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: yes, that PR :) 22:48:54 <FLHerne> How did they say? I don't see new activity on it 22:49:12 <TrueBrain> he asked me on Discord first 22:49:25 <FLHerne> IIRC "that PR" was only the first step of even more proposed changes 22:49:41 <TrueBrain> from what I remember, we said: nah, the PR is fine, we were being a bit pedantic, right? 22:49:43 <JGR> milek7_, the Window/ZeroedMemoryAllocator setup implicitly makes use of undefined behaviour, which is why dead store elimination needs to be disabled in the GCC flags. 22:49:47 <FLHerne> But yes, there was consensus that the idea was right 22:49:51 <TrueBrain> good 22:49:54 <TrueBrain> he is going to give it another go 22:50:00 <FLHerne> There was nitpicking about the Right Words, a lot of which was my fault 22:50:06 <JGR> It can be made correct by re-arranging the inheritance structure a bit 22:50:11 <TrueBrain> pretty sure too many people jumped in FLHerne :) 22:50:16 <TrueBrain> happens with things everyone knows a bit about :) 22:50:46 <TrueBrain> tnx FLHerne , we will see what he does with the PRs :) 22:52:26 <milek7_> JGR: but why it is doing allocation itself? instead of simple memset 0 in constructor? 22:52:46 <FLHerne> My favourite thing from that was the thing about the manual of style pages 22:53:14 <FLHerne> Wiki was case-sensitive, so both "Manual of Style" and "Manual of style" existed with contradictory advice 22:53:14 <JGR> milek7_, that isn't valid to do because it's not POD, you would overwrite your vtable pointer 22:53:28 <FLHerne> Which is the most absurdly ironic thing ever 22:55:43 <JGR> milek7_, I put this in my branch to make the issue go away https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/6573a67b69a96e781767c7b4a962160c08492d81 22:59:26 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:59:28 *** nielsm has quit IRC 23:21:51 <andythenorth> so much bedtime 23:21:52 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:25:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 opened pull request #8899: Fix: Freeing LanguagePack with wrong size. https://git.io/JYGSt 23:28:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 opened issue #8900: GCC11 complains a lot about -Wmismatched-new-delete https://git.io/JYGSx