Log for #openttd on 2nd April 2021:
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00:48:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8929: Fix: adjust object and rail station selection window padding to be consistent
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05:28:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #8926: Fix #8922: Show vehicle window for single vehicle in shared order grouping
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06:03:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] werbfred updated pull request #199: Add support of square root function in builtin functions
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06:19:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] werbfred commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
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07:00:51  <LordAro> i object to "most serious players"
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07:13:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8928: Fix: Memory leak of airport tile layout in AirportChangeInfo (prop 0A)
07:14:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8929: Fix: adjust object and rail station selection window padding to be consistent
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07:45:14  <TrueBrain> I love how he mixes "serious players" and "newcomers" in the same post
07:45:22  <TrueBrain> From 0 to 100
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07:52:17  <Your_mum> Your mum
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07:53:11  <TrueBrain> Tnx for that valuable contribution
07:53:52  <TrueBrain> Hmm .. 0 sentry alerts .. boring is good :D
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08:11:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8899: Fix: Freeing LanguagePack with wrong size.
08:12:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8899: Fix: Freeing LanguagePack with wrong size.
08:12:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8908: Adds hotkey for the new filter edit boxes.
08:13:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8880: Feature: Press ctrl to build diagonal rivers in Scenario Editor
08:13:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8928: Fix: Memory leak of airport tile layout in AirportChangeInfo (prop 0A)
08:15:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8929: Fix: adjust object and rail station selection window padding to be consistent
08:15:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #8618: Script API compatibility files are not found
08:15:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8906: Change: [CMake] Copy AI/GS compatibility files to build dir
08:18:39  <TrueBrain> someone was waiting for their moment to shine :D
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08:23:46  <michi_cc> Just doing housekeeping :)
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08:35:33  <TrueBrain> so now we also get emails about servers that have company names that are ... not okay
08:36:07  <TrueBrain> wtf do we do with that ..
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08:36:17  <Wolf01> Put a disclaimer like on minecraft
08:36:54  <Wolf01>
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08:38:36  <nielsm> also on the contact page, "The OpenTTD project does not own or operate any multiplayer game servers. We cannot help you with any questions, trouble, or complaints about servers operated by third parties."
08:39:11  <peter1138> The server list is though
08:39:32  <Wolf01> Would you limit free speech?
08:40:11  <TrueBrain> nielsm: can you PR that?
08:40:21  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: this has absolutely nothing to do with free speech
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08:41:32  <Wolf01> Neither the minorities protection law to be approved by our government, but righthand parties are trying to block it because attacking minorities is considered free speech
08:41:54  <TrueBrain> pretty sure you are in the wrong channel :P
08:41:55  <TrueBrain> :D
08:42:12  <Wolf01> Today everything is free speech
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08:43:23  <peter1138> "Free Speech" is usually cried only by cunts who want to be cuntish.
08:43:28  <Wolf01> Yup
08:43:48  <andythenorth> happy Friday
08:43:55  * andythenorth wandered into a conversation? :)
08:43:59  <andythenorth> I HAD A LIE IN
08:44:00  <Wolf01> Nah
08:44:04  <andythenorth> slept until 9am
08:44:06  <andythenorth> this NEVER HAPPENS
08:44:36  <Wolf01> I was able to sleep 7 hours this night too, I didn't sleep that long for weeks
08:44:46  <peter1138> I slept long and I'm still shattered.
08:44:50  <andythenorth> oof
08:44:56  <andythenorth> have a day off
08:45:04  <peter1138> And also it's cold again so I don't feel like getting the bike out :(
08:45:26  <Wolf01> Cold again here too :(
08:48:11  <Wolf01> We bathed the cat today, now it looks like a rat
08:48:42  <andythenorth> cat, rat, hat
08:49:05  <andythenorth> mat, bat, lat
08:49:17  * andythenorth should do lat stretches
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08:49:32  <andythenorth> how do I reply on a Steam?
08:49:32  <Wolf01> English is funny, you just change a letter and get 20 different words
08:49:41  <andythenorth> I probably have an account or something
08:52:26  <Wolf01> Uh, looks like Jan Zeleny didn't take so well OTTD on Steam :P
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08:57:38  <andythenorth> more kindness needed
08:58:18  <TrueBrain> I dunno Wolf01 , I think it is a clever way to know what you should work on for your product
08:58:20  <TrueBrain> I like it :D
08:58:30  <andythenorth> I don't like some of the comments though
08:58:42  <andythenorth> doing a solo game on this scale must be mentally crushing
08:59:07  <Wolf01> TrueBrain: but it's a bit harsh to ask it, even politely, in another game forum :P
08:59:21  <andythenorth> I think it's fine no?
08:59:34  <TrueBrain> I think that makes him a good developer, honestly
08:59:40  <TrueBrain> not being scared of what else is out there
08:59:50  <TrueBrain> we tend to be more like: NOTHING outside OpenTTD exists!
08:59:54  <andythenorth> I see no contest of conflict between OpenTTD and any of the derivatives
08:59:57  <TrueBrain> which .. has its drawbacks :P
09:00:06  <andythenorth> contest or conflict *
09:00:28  <andythenorth> the only conflict was with TTDPatch and we won that
09:00:46  <Wolf01> That was natural selection, not a conflict
09:00:55  <andythenorth> I have been told that before
09:01:04  <FLHerne> Wolf01: Did he? This thread just seems like curiosity to me
09:01:08  <andythenorth> but if you were making newgrfs at the time it was a conflict
09:01:11  <FLHerne> was there another one?
09:01:12  <andythenorth> there were battles and deaths
09:01:21  <Wolf01> And I still prefer TTDP for many features OTTD doesn't have (yet)
09:01:37  <andythenorth> there is a newsletter about that you can join
09:01:39  <FLHerne> I like that the second-most-helpful review is " f*** you flefingbridge transport 1"
09:01:51  <andythenorth> internet still has a sense of humour
09:03:08  <andythenorth> so which AI should be default?
09:03:13  <andythenorth> and when are trams included getting?
09:03:21  <TrueBrain> okay, I did not know Mashinky existed
09:03:23  <TrueBrain> but fuck that looks good
09:03:51  <andythenorth> doesn't it
09:04:32  <andythenorth> every derivative is a positive IMO
09:04:54  <andythenorth> shows interesting things
09:05:09  <andythenorth> reduces pressure to 'turn OpenTTD into X' because X is offered by something else
09:05:45  <TrueBrain> I had to reply that I think it looks very nice
09:06:30  <andythenorth> pls play it and let me know if I should get it
09:06:32  <andythenorth> thx bai
09:06:50  <TrueBrain> I have other plans for the next few weeks, I am afraid
09:07:14  <_dp_> lol, how did you miss mashinky? I think I alone mentioned it here at least 10 times :P
09:07:19  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I think it's a good purchase
09:07:29  <_dp_> unfortunately it seems that good looks is the only thing it has :(
09:07:32  <TrueBrain> _dp_: pretty sure I zone out most of the time when you talk :P :P :P
09:07:34  <TrueBrain> sorry, that is mean
09:07:37  <TrueBrain> but you were asking for it :D
09:07:42  <TrueBrain> I don't mean it btw :)
09:07:44  <Wolf01> _dp_: 9 of 10 by me probably :P
09:07:58  <TrueBrain> sometimes it is too easy to make a joke :P
09:08:05  <TrueBrain> but no, I read the word .. just never looked it up
09:08:07  <_dp_> >:)
09:09:10  <nielsm> checked the negative reviews on steam, I guess maybe "the music starts really loud" is a good point, reducing the default volume to 50% might be an idea
09:09:31  <nielsm> and that adding volume controls to the game options window thing
09:09:55  <Wolf01> Or a mini-player directly to the toolbar even
09:10:17  <nielsm> the problem is volume controls on the main menu
09:10:43  <Wolf01> Yeah, that is most important
09:12:49  <andythenorth> I like the full-volume music at start
09:12:51  <andythenorth> very 90s
09:12:58  <andythenorth> reminds of the huge mac startup chime
09:13:18  <andythenorth> which became problematic when I used to work late on macs that crashed a lot
09:13:26  <andythenorth> working in same room as my now-wife
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09:19:08  <_dp_> I'm trying hard not to buy starsector these days
09:19:16  <_dp_> mashinky didn't last even a few days for me
09:19:27  <_dp_> though it was way back when it just came out
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09:23:43  <Wolf01> The only thing I don't really like from mashinky is that you are somewhat forced to change era every now and then, or you are missing a lot of opportunities and you must even upgrade your network accordingly or industries might stop working because they lack the new materials and might not accept some of the old ones
09:24:06  <andythenorth> "I tend to live in a bubble"
09:24:14  <andythenorth> I am going to make a t-shirt with that on for TrueBrain
09:24:16  <andythenorth> :D
09:24:17  <TrueBrain> :D
09:24:22  <andythenorth> or a baseball cap
09:24:58  <andythenorth> ok FIRS 4.0.0 is done
09:25:04  <andythenorth> most important thing to everyone
09:25:06  <andythenorth> so what now?
09:25:27  * andythenorth plays Blitz while OpenTTD management team decides
09:25:46  <peter1138> Release it, then realise it's got a game-breaking bug and revoke it all and work on it for another 2 years.
09:25:56  <andythenorth> YES
09:25:59  <nielsm> also just want to say, I learned of this a little while ago and it's stolen a lot of my time now:
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09:27:42  <peter1138> Hmm, this "Control" game appears to have RTX ray tracing. You can tell from the visual glitches...
09:28:14  <Wolf01> nielsm: that looks like a bit of train valley :P
09:28:43  <nielsm> Wolf01 it plays very differently tho
09:29:34  <nielsm> train valley is pressuring you to make hacks to get trains through, RR lets you take things at your own pace and build a good network before expanding
09:30:14  <Wolf01> But you still have to control it manually or there is a sort of automation?
09:30:29  <nielsm> you can make full rule-based automation in RR
09:31:20  <Wolf01> So you start as train valley and end up having OTTD :P
09:31:34  <Wolf01> Both without graphics
09:34:29  <nielsm> it's definitely a niche game
09:36:13  <Wolf01> It still might be more fun than the sum of the 2, sometimes is the core idea which works well and all the other "decorations" are just distracting, specially when you are forced to use them and they are not fun
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09:37:48  <nielsm> it's very focused on timetabling and making sure the trains can run their routes reliably
09:41:16  <peter1138> Oh god, I just remembered I used to have a patch to manually control trains...
09:41:27  <peter1138> I have... no idea why.
09:41:47  <Wolf01> Ahah maybe for traffic jams
09:43:26  <andythenorth> because you could
09:43:34  <Wolf01> That too
09:51:19  <andythenorth> I guess I should make the FIRS cargoflow charts....not broken :)
09:51:22  <andythenorth> they miss some cargos
09:51:36  <andythenorth> also I need to delete these restaurant cars from Iron Horse
09:51:40  <andythenorth> LC has proven they break the game
09:52:27  <andythenorth> oh I think I need to login to steam and join comments :)
09:53:01  <Wolf01> BTW, yesterday I was joking, but in reality I'm thinking to try to work on map rotation for real since last year... I already have some ideas but I really don't know if they are applyable to OTTD, what could go well? :P
09:55:06  <andythenorth> why does my name in steam show as 'steam'
09:55:08  <andythenorth> weird
09:55:47  <_dp_> hm... now, how do I build 1.11? azure looks pretty dead and I'm totally clueless about github actions
09:55:56  <_dp_> is there some simple way to just trigger a build with gha?
09:56:44  <andythenorth> shall I make an AI and call it 'Default AI' on bananas?
09:57:02  <Wolf01> Why not?
09:57:15  <Wolf01> I wanted to try to make one too
09:58:30  <andythenorth> maybe I have a shave
10:00:05  <TrueBrain> I like Jan :D
10:00:12  <TrueBrain> the more I talk to other devs
10:00:16  <TrueBrain> the more I realise we all have the same issues
10:00:23  <TrueBrain> and are solving them one by one again and again
10:00:27  <TrueBrain> such a waste of energy :P
10:00:45  <Wolf01> Automete it!
10:00:46  <andythenorth> are the issues 'community'
10:00:48  <andythenorth> 'hosting'
10:00:52  <andythenorth> 'build automation'
10:00:57  <andythenorth> 'cross platform compiles'
10:01:03  <andythenorth> 'contributors'
10:01:56  <andythenorth> :P
10:02:01  <_dp_> TrueBrain, openttd+mashinky merge when? :p
10:02:01  <TrueBrain> in the last 2 days I found a wide spectrum of similar issues
10:02:09  <TrueBrain> from releasing on Steam to Discord integration
10:02:22  <TrueBrain> from dealing with bullies to updating your users
10:02:26  <TrueBrain> its funny
10:04:09  <_dp_> looking at that shitshow on steam discussions I'm somewhat happy I didn't make 1.11 server in time xD
10:04:45  <andythenorth> what's all this steam trading card crap?
10:04:50  <andythenorth> Iron Horse 2 trading cards when?
10:04:55  * andythenorth is a steam noob
10:05:18  <Wolf01> Uh, this evening there is the livestream, I should not forget
10:05:38  <andythenorth> me neither
10:05:42  <andythenorth> I should not forget
10:05:44  * _dp_ wants to create a server and call it "Steam Achievements"
10:05:53  <_dp_> oh, it's already 2nd of april, dammit
10:05:56  <Wolf01> andythenorth: that would be a problem :P
10:06:20  <andythenorth> hype
10:06:33  <Wolf01> What for? :D
10:06:48  <andythenorth> I think it has just become a thing to say
10:07:29  <andythenorth> did anyone automate S3 for me yet?
10:09:00  <TrueBrain> right, good point, I should be back on time .. I can completely see myself forget the livestream tonight and be late :P
10:16:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] werbfred updated pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
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10:41:03  <frosch123> haha, i love roundtrips in conversation. when you initiate something with someone, and then  it spreads through a chain of people, until it returns to you via another person
10:43:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #88: Change: migrate OpenTTD user StarRaid to GitHub user StarRaid
10:47:03  <peter1138> Wait, the database is in git?
10:47:30  <frosch123> the public part, not the secrets
10:47:52  <frosch123> same for the wiki, dorpsgek and what's not
11:04:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #88: Change: migrate OpenTTD user StarRaid to GitHub user StarRaid
11:05:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #88: Change: migrate OpenTTD user StarRaid to GitHub user StarRaid
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11:26:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 opened pull request #41: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:29:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 opened pull request #20: Fix install location of 'make install'
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11:31:29  <Timberwolf> Time to wash car, then make sure livestream install is set up and working.
11:31:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 opened pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:34:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:35:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:35:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Wuzzy2 opened pull request #66: Remove 'How to Apply' section in LICENSE
11:37:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] orudge commented on pull request #66: Remove 'How to Apply' section in LICENSE
11:37:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] orudge closed pull request #66: Remove 'How to Apply' section in LICENSE
11:40:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:40:45  <TrueBrain> optimizing for window size in OpenTTD ... we all tried that once in our lives :D
11:41:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:41:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] FLHerne commented on pull request #41: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:43:45  <andythenorth> eddi is doing community management :)
11:45:44  <FLHerne> _dp_: What's the problem with Maschinky? Looks very like 3d-rendered OTTD from the screenshots
11:45:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:45:58  <FLHerne> Limited signalling/timetables, like Locomotion?
11:47:08  <TrueBrain> someone stepped out of bed on the wrong side, it seams :P
11:47:28  <_dp_> FLHerne, idk, last time I checked it was just a pretty demo. No gameplay, no multiplayer, no linux :p
11:47:31  <andythenorth> just needs more coffee
11:47:37  * andythenorth general answer to all questions ^
11:47:38  <TrueBrain> seams?
11:47:41  <TrueBrain> I need more coffee too
11:47:41  <TrueBrain> lol
11:47:45  <TrueBrain> wtf .. writing english hard
11:47:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #41: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:47:49  <andythenorth> I can't
11:48:00  <andythenorth> I look at logs sometimes and wonder how I write anything
11:48:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #20: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:49:37  <_dp_> it actually could be very cool if mashinky and openttd somehow miraculously merged
11:49:42  <_dp_> because each has what other don't
11:50:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #41: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:51:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #41: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:52:09  <andythenorth> _dp_ GS
11:52:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] werbfred commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
11:53:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
11:54:36  <TrueBrain> lets do another game of: guess how many people install OpenTTD on Steam :P
11:54:38  <TrueBrain> any takers?
11:54:56  <frosch123> 50k
11:55:04  <TrueBrain> Lifetime free licenses (?) 	58,444
11:55:05  <TrueBrain> not bad :D
11:55:44  <TrueBrain> its funny, some stats are still meaningless
11:55:48  <TrueBrain> like "Average time played"
11:55:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #20: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:56:01  <frosch123> 10 minutes?
11:56:12  <TrueBrain> 41 minutes atm
11:56:15  <TrueBrain> median is at 8
11:56:35  <TrueBrain> there are people that already have the game running for 200+ minutes
11:56:45  <TrueBrain> over 1000 people, in fact
11:56:57  <TrueBrain> most seems to have started the game and closed it
11:56:59  <andythenorth> some people will have failed to sleep
11:57:10  <andythenorth> that thing where you first find OpenTTD
11:57:11  <andythenorth> then it's 4am
11:57:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #20: Fix install location of 'make install'
11:57:37  <TrueBrain> and also on Steam, it is mostly a Western Europe game :)
11:57:43  <TrueBrain> ~40% of the players
11:58:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #20: Fix install location of 'make install'
12:00:50  <andythenorth> I have banned child #1 from the m1 for using discord when he was told he's not allowed
12:00:54  <andythenorth> so I am testing OpenTTD on it
12:01:40  <frosch123> dot: graph is too large for cairo-renderer bitmaps. Scaling by 0.214633 to fit
12:02:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
12:03:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
12:03:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
12:04:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #21: Readme text cleanup
12:04:30  <andythenorth> FML landscape generator is slow on 4k x 4k maps
12:04:31  <andythenorth> so slow
12:05:52  <andythenorth> oh this is interesting
12:06:14  <andythenorth> on 512 x 256 map, the M1 keeps up for all combinations of hidpi / hardware acceleration / full animation on off
12:06:24  <andythenorth> uncapped ffwd speed is about 300x
12:06:53  <andythenorth> on a 4k x 4k map it can barely run the game at 1x without FFWD, with hidpi and full animation off
12:06:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] werbfred commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
12:08:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
12:08:43  <andythenorth> ok on an M1 the hidpi, full animation and hardware acceleration bools make very little difference to performance so far
12:09:31  <andythenorth> map size however
12:09:39  <andythenorth> makes a huge difference
12:09:48  <orudge> andythenorth: just checking, it is running natively, not with Rosetta? (Steam forces the latter unfortunately)
12:09:55  <orudge> I don't know that I tested 4096x4096 maps to be fair
12:09:57  <orudge> I never use them myself
12:10:01  <andythenorth> same
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12:10:25  <andythenorth> it's running Rosetta
12:10:32  <supermop_Home_> yo
12:10:46  <andythenorth> I can change a flag in the bundle?
12:10:47  * andythenorth looks
12:11:59  <andythenorth> oh the native performance on a 64x64 map is ridiculous
12:12:10  <orudge> If you run directly, it shouldn't go via Rosetta
12:12:15  <andythenorth> yup
12:12:29  <orudge> It's just that Steam is under Rosetta, and Rosetta-usage is "sticky"
12:13:00  <andythenorth> :)
12:13:28  <andythenorth> the native M1 performance on 4k^2 is similar to my i9
12:14:51  <andythenorth> ok enough of that :)
12:14:55  <andythenorth> 'data points'
12:15:02  <orudge> Ooh, we're back up near our all-time peak again
12:15:08  <orudge> 1465 players, peak was 1477
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12:17:56  <andythenorth> TL:DR mac m1 performance is outstandingly good on smaller maps (up to 1024 x 1024 or so)
12:18:07  <andythenorth> above, that, it drops off
12:18:24  * andythenorth didn't test with actual savegames, just ffwd on empty maps
12:20:23  <andythenorth> switch will be named like 'switch_spritelayer_cargos_intermodal_cars_default_16px'
12:20:29  <andythenorth> with variants for different lengths
12:20:57  <FLHerne_> M1 has surprisingly big L2 cache of 12MB, which probably means the map array would fit entirely in cache for small maps but not big ones
12:21:11  <FLHerne_> Not sure if that's a correct speculation though
12:25:24  <milek7_> hmm
12:25:38  <milek7_> why changing 'Maximum zoom in level' changes UI size?
12:27:36  <frosch123> it limits what sprites are loaded
12:28:05  <frosch123> it's more of a "reduce memory" setting, than a "limit mouse wheel" setting :p
12:32:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8805: Feature: Allow client and server to negotiate on compression to use for the savegame
12:33:04  <andythenorth> goes it throw out livery gui?
12:33:33  * andythenorth has a sort of idea about auto-replace, auto-renew, consist management and applying train skins / adjusting properties
12:33:44  <andythenorth> but not a drawing :P
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12:37:15  <andythenorth> maybe Consist Builder as working title :P
12:37:21  <andythenorth> names are important, yes / no?
12:52:15  <supermop_Home_> sure
12:56:36  <nielsm> how much traffic is bananas getting?
13:05:46  <andythenorth> this gets old
13:06:02  <andythenorth> if I knew all the vehicle set grfids, I could disable FIRS if none are found?
13:06:08  <andythenorth> can we automate that from Bananas somehow?
13:06:30  <andythenorth> we could parse grfs to find out what they contain?  And if they contain vehicles, check the cargo refits?
13:06:51  <andythenorth> then I could pull that as JSON or something, and use it in FIRS compile?
13:07:04  <andythenorth> and disable if no grfs are supported
13:11:55  <orudge> Oh hey, there's still a MorphOS build of OpenTTD
13:11:58  <orudge> not that I have ever used MorphOS
13:12:00  <orudge> but it's nice to know
13:15:22  <TrueBrain> how is the OS/2 build going? :P :P :P
13:15:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #8926: Fix #8922: Show vehicle window for single vehicle in shared order grouping
13:16:16  <orudge> There's even a MorphOS cross-compiler docker image available, we could do nightlies ;)
13:16:26  <TrueBrain> no
13:16:27  <TrueBrain> :P
13:16:37  <orudge> TrueBrain: eh... if I can ever get the cross-compiler working :P
13:16:44  <orudge> but right now other things are perhaps higher priority
13:17:11  <TrueBrain> I think that is literally true always :P
13:17:21  <TrueBrain> I mean .. those 2 users survive without a binary :D
13:17:23  <TrueBrain> <3
13:18:29  <TrueBrain> #302 .. will we break #300 today?
13:19:42  <orudge> 1716 players now o/
13:30:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "coal truck's capacity is 30,000 litres of alcohol" <- I don't see how that can happen even with the base vehicles?
13:30:30  <andythenorth> cargo ordering breaks refits
13:30:33  <FLHerne> Do they use some hardcoded cargo slots rather than labels?
13:30:37  <andythenorth> of course :)
13:30:43  <FLHerne> Well that's daft
13:31:03  <andythenorth> we can't change them because backwards compatibility and purity
13:31:06  <andythenorth> or something
13:31:14  <andythenorth> it's been discussed more than once :P
13:31:24  * andythenorth doesn't want to gatekeep improvements though
13:31:27  <andythenorth> maybe that was former us
13:31:40  <andythenorth> it's just funny
13:31:51  <andythenorth> I mean it would be way easier to just include vehicles in FIRS
13:36:20  <FLHerne> "Squid-FIRS Iron Hog" ?
13:36:27  <andythenorth> seems to make sense
13:36:30  <FLHerne> "with CHIPS"
13:36:30  <andythenorth> also Termite
13:36:36  <andythenorth> compile time :(
13:36:48  <andythenorth> package multiple grfs in one container?
13:37:12  <andythenorth> or we could just decide classes for the base vehicles
13:37:23  <andythenorth> will it actuall work?
13:37:28  * andythenorth looks in wiki
13:38:21  <andythenorth> food in temperate is a gap
13:38:49  <andythenorth> and livestock in tropic
13:39:04  <andythenorth> and toyland is
13:39:07  <andythenorth>
13:39:17  <andythenorth> liquids -> oil tanker
13:39:23  <andythenorth> piece -> goods van
13:39:27  <andythenorth> bulk -> one of the hoppers
13:40:11  <nielsm> andythenorth I think I suggested it before: include basic refits of the original vehicles in FIRS, but disable them if you detect a known-compatible vehicle set
13:40:24  <andythenorth> it's an idea
13:40:25  <TrueBrain> #294!
13:40:25  <nielsm> (also include a configuration to force disable them)
13:40:41  <andythenorth> TrueBrain :P
13:40:54  <andythenorth> or I just ban FIRS if Iron Horse isn't found
13:41:03  <TrueBrain> we broke the 300 :D
13:41:14  <andythenorth> can we fix it? :)
13:42:14  <TrueBrain> ....
13:42:22  <TrueBrain> so many words I want to say that I cannot in public
13:42:45  <TrueBrain> gniffels and runs away :P
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13:45:04  <TrueBrain> some reviews .. "Worth every penny. "
13:45:05  <TrueBrain> :D
13:47:11  * andythenorth looking if Apple M1 can run Risc OS
13:47:24  <andythenorth> I never did get an emulator working on this mac
13:47:30  <andythenorth> peter1138 sent me Chocks Away I think
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13:48:28  <nielsm> Risc OS might run in an instruction set sense, but probably will need a lot of support to boot, and drivers for graphics, storage and input
13:48:55  * andythenorth looking into whether there's WASM risc os
13:49:10  <andythenorth> just want to play chocks away
13:50:16  <peter1138> Why don't SNES games work on my BBC Micro? It's almost the same CPU...
13:51:12  <peter1138> That said, I do have a RISC OS image running on Pi...
13:51:28  <peter1138> Maybe with the emulator it'll run Chocks Away
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13:51:57  <azulcosta> hello again
13:53:20  <azulcosta> i'm trying to use a random_trigger  event , but i can't figure out the strings (name of the event) to write in the right..
13:54:29  <azulcosta> once again, i was trying to use the random_trigger to change speed of a wagon, based on his actual cargo..... i have other code, but, like timberwolf said, it only works when vehicle reverses direction.
13:55:40  <azulcosta> @Timberwolf
14:02:02  <Timberwolf> I've not touched the triggers in anything I've done so far.
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14:10:15  <azulcosta> ok, my last try is using the start_stop event to check amount of cargo and change speed values
14:17:12  <peter1138> "petererer played OpenTTD for the first time" sure
14:20:19  <orudge> Nearly at 2000 players...
14:24:44  <_dp_> interestingly mp activity only just nears yesterday's peak
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14:36:27  * Timberwolf is being a rebel and playing DOS Transport Tycoon.
14:37:25  <frosch123> without autorail and without build on slopes?
14:37:36  <Timberwolf> Without one-way signals!
14:37:38  <frosch123> last time i tried, i quit after 5 minutes
14:37:55  <frosch123> ah, TTO, never had that
14:37:57  <Timberwolf> Not being able to drag the bulldozer is the current frustration :)
14:38:41  <andythenorth> 2019 players
14:39:26  <frosch123> how many of them will be on stream? :p
14:43:14  <andythenorth> 3
14:43:28  * andythenorth wonders how many UK people will convert UTC wrong
14:47:55  <azulcosta> ok, so here's the idea:
14:48:44  <azulcosta> checking if wagon is in station, then check it's cargo count, and set aproppriate max speed. so after the train resumes travel, it checks for max speed from loaded cargo from wagons...
14:49:01  <azulcosta> before train resumes speed...
14:52:12  <andythenorth> 'speed' callback
14:52:39  <andythenorth> oh you tried stuff already above
14:53:58  <andythenorth> you have confirmed that 'speed' isn't handled simply on visiting a station azulcosta?
14:54:03  * andythenorth would be surprised by that
14:54:05  <frosch123> hmm, grf2html output no longer works
14:54:15  <frosch123> my browser refuses to display images on local disk :p
14:54:37  <andythenorth> oof
14:55:14  <andythenorth> run the python webserver
14:58:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] marcelosmc opened issue #178: [pt_BR] Translator access request
14:58:57  <frosch123> oh, nevermind, these sprites just happened to be actually empty :/
14:59:18  <_dp_> quick grepping tells that game only updates max speed for trains when consist is changed
14:59:31  <azulcosta> i'll leave it as it it's now.... only changes the speed when vehicle is reversed/turn around on stations... don't work when it resumes emptied on same direction when leaving station....
15:00:35  * andythenorth surprised
15:00:47  <andythenorth> I assumed speed wouldn't be cached through a station load/unload cycle
15:01:04  <andythenorth> "assume nothing"
15:01:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: ok, so i can also show a grf2hml sample, when we talk about it
15:01:25  <azulcosta> well, I was wondering if, i could get some script codes from the bridge speed limit to add it to wagon load/cargo to speed value ?
15:01:27  <frosch123> it will be nutracks
15:01:31  <_dp_> though purr rails work somehow so there mb something else there
15:01:31  <andythenorth> frosch123 \o/
15:01:36  <frosch123> it's the only thing i still found on my disk :p
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15:14:29  <spnda> 2.1k on Steam :O
15:14:38  <spnda> what does that mean in context of all games on steam?
15:15:38  <frosch123> they want to upgrade the platform to diesel
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15:24:48  <orudge> spnda: it means we're the 283rd most played game on Steam just now, apparently
15:24:57  <spnda> crazy
15:25:03  <orudge> ahead of, for instance, Age of Mythology Extended Edition
15:25:36  <orudge> But somewhat behind the 1 million people playing CS: GO :)
15:27:31  <nielsm> how many 15+ year old games are that high?
15:28:43  <peter1138> Hmm, tf2 is only 14 years old... sheesh
15:29:29  <orudge> We used to have some fun games of TF2 in #tycoon
15:29:44  <peter1138> Yeah, that's why I remembered it :)(
15:30:02  <peter1138> Back when it wasn't free, nor full of hats.
15:30:13  <orudge> Quite
15:30:18  <peter1138> Simpler times
15:30:21  <orudge> It's probably been 10 years since I've fired up TF2
15:30:42  <peter1138> I loaded it more recently but it's barely recognisable
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15:45:02  <jgx> Guidance request: Cannot induce cargo reset on bulk wagon, either to fixed or available type. 1.11.0-RC1~33 (but since at least 20210207-master-gaf0acc9a75). I suspect user error, but I ask anyway. OS=Linux (like Ubuntu Bionic)
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15:46:05  <jgx> This for bulk->wheat or bulk->livestock in sub-arctic game
15:49:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8805: Feature: Allow client and server to negotiate on compression to use for the savegame
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16:09:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8805: Feature: Allow client and server to negotiate on compression to use for the savegame
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16:10:56  <michi_cc> Player count still going up...
16:11:54  <nielsm> USA waking up
16:12:18  <spnda> No. 275 of most played steam games right now
16:14:50  <michi_cc> Which, given the total amount of games on Steam, is really amazing.
16:16:00  <spnda> yeah
16:16:07  <spnda> I mean just look at the competition around that place
16:16:26  <spnda> Call Of Duty, Just Cause, Witcher Games, Half Life, Far Cry
16:16:28  <spnda> it's crazy
16:16:49  <LordAro> morning
16:16:54  <_dp_> any ideas why I may be getting this error?
16:16:59  <LordAro> what drama have i missed?
16:17:08  <_dp_> it's only when patched and only on one machine
16:17:18  <_dp_> but I didn't change anything font-related...
16:18:22  <_dp_> freaking cmake is way too magic, no idea where to even start debugging it
16:18:49  <LordAro> _dp_: that looks familiar to something recent
16:19:38  <_dp_> hm, there is
16:20:14  <LordAro> that's the one
16:22:23  <_dp_> ffs wtf do I have old CMakeLists.txt o_O
16:26:57  <glx> fix is quite recent (less than a month)
16:28:21  <glx> and my usual way to debug cmake is message(STATUS "whatever I want to print")
16:31:42  <Timberwolf> Even I'm seeing about 30% more views on the channel than normal. And people on my LAN gaming Discord asking for tips. Steam release seems to have stirred up a huge amount of interest in the game, which is great for something that's been around so long.
16:31:52  <_dp_> problem is I've no idea what I want to print xD
16:32:14  <_dp_> I don't have time right now nor do I want to learn cmake, I just want stuff to work like before
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16:33:50  <LordAro> _dp_: make VERBOSE=1 is generally quite helpful for printing the actual command that's being run
16:34:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8923: Fix #8922: Crash when selling last member of shared order group while window was open
16:34:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #8923: Fix #8922: Crash when selling last member of shared order group while window was open
16:35:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8716: Fix #8713: Change OTTD2FS and FS2OTTD to return string objects
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16:38:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] W1Z44RD opened issue #179: [ru_RU] Translator access request
16:41:42  <nielsm> argh is so old it's before cmake
16:44:05  <glx> do you need help to update ?
16:45:31  <nielsm> I think I'm managing
16:46:06  <glx> yeah seems it should not be too hard, just adding files in the right CMakeLists.txt
16:46:30  <spnda> I think I also had to port  #7955 to be CMake compliant
16:47:56  <glx> spnda: probably as cmake was merged in june ;)
16:49:34  <glx> nielsm: some defines may be named differently too
16:52:36  <glx> (but zlib and lzma are not concerned it seems)
16:55:36  <nielsm> wtf visual studio
17:04:14  <nielsm> well, it builds now at least
17:04:31  <nielsm> will need a lot of squashing and swishing
17:04:49  <glx> just ignore intellisense before first build :)
17:05:34  <glx> (and in any file containing FOR_XXX loop)
17:09:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #8926: Fix #8922: Show vehicle window for single vehicle in shared order grouping
17:09:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #8926: Fix #8922: Show vehicle window for single vehicle in shared order grouping
17:13:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
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17:21:19  <snail_UES_> omg Andy, you removed Steel from FIRS? :O
17:21:52  <snail_UES_> now I have no choice but to rework my trainset so it supports your new kinds of cargo…
17:27:53  <andythenorth> I did?
17:27:58  <andythenorth> April 1 is over no?
17:30:00  <snail_UES_> haha
17:30:11  <snail_UES_> you did from the Steeltown economy
17:30:44  <snail_UES_> I guess because your Stainless Steel and Alloy Steel should only appear as ingots?
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17:31:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
17:31:58  <andythenorth> or slabs
17:32:09  <LordAro> nielsm: that still needs the extended scrollbars, no?
17:32:33  <nielsm> hmm maybe it does
17:32:45  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ there is an annoying gameplay quirk, visually stainless steel would be good as coils
17:33:01  <andythenorth> but the cargoflow, it doesn't go through a rolling mill, so it won't be coiled sheet
17:33:16  <andythenorth> depends how much you care
17:33:29  <LordAro> nielsm: 8006(?)
17:33:42  <LordAro> it seems very inconsistent as to whether it can handle more than 6k lines or not
17:33:46  <LordAro> windows seems fine
17:33:47  <LordAro> linux not
17:34:00  <snail_UES_> hmm, slabs too? but you’ve also got the “steel sheet” cargo
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17:36:37  <nielsm>  question whether to improve the code to handle multiple links per line, or change the documents to only have one link per (physical) line
17:38:19  <LordAro> i mean, the former seems preferable
17:38:27  <LordAro> why would there be a limitation like that?
17:38:46  <nielsm> because it makes hit detection much easier
17:39:15  <nielsm> the entire line is the clickable part, instead of having to figure out which position in the line was clicked
17:44:41  <LordAro> ah, lol
17:46:01  <nielsm> if I do that then I'll suddenly have to run the line breaking algorithm on clicks (if word wrap is enabled and the line has links)
17:47:19  <nielsm> and it gets even more fun if bidi text is involved
17:53:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:53:25  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:54:36  <nielsm> hmm I could also make it pop up a menu of the found links in the line if it has more than one, and ask the player to clarify
17:55:48  <milek7_> ouch
17:57:59  <milek7_> I mean it is not that out of place for DOS game with quirky UI, but...
17:58:55  <andythenorth> LIVESTREAM!
17:59:02  <andythenorth> x
18:02:30  <peter1138> Who are these guys?
18:04:26  *** Progman has joined #openttd
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18:13:00  <LordAro> just some guys, you know?
18:13:58  <peter1138> I don't know who the 2 other guys are.
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18:32:07  <Wolf01> Oh shit, train whack, now I have to play it
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18:45:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Gubius opened issue #180: [lb_LU] Translator access request
18:52:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #178: [pt_BR] Translator access request
18:54:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #179: [ru_RU] Translator access request
18:58:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro opened pull request #181: Change: Link to existing team in request reply message
18:58:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #180: [lb_LU] Translator access request
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19:37:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain approved pull request #181: Change: Link to existing team in request reply message
19:37:49  <LordAro> good stream yalls
19:38:03  <TrueBrain> I laughed a lot :D
19:38:04  <Zuu> yes :-)
19:38:24  <Wolf01> Too bad I understood like 1/10 of what they said, but the parts I understood were funny or interesting
19:40:04  <frosch123> <- who will make the PR :p
19:40:50  <LordAro> 13% from such a small sample shows it's quite highly used :p
19:41:05  <peter1138> All of it or just the vehicle categories?
19:41:13  <andythenorth> vehicle categories
19:41:35  <Zuu> the question was a bit geared towards trains though. If asked about planes maybe it would show different numbers?
19:41:39  <andythenorth> we have group liveries now, way better
19:41:46  <Timberwolf> I could happily see it gone if groups allowed separate colours for "engine" and "wagons" :)
19:42:20  <Zuu> But anyhow great to toss in some polls in the live streams to collect some opinions/usage info. :-)
19:42:54  <LordAro> currently at #239 :)
19:45:14  <andythenorth> also hi Zuu
19:45:36  <Zuu> Hi andythenorth nice to see you on the stream.
19:45:42  <peter1138> I think it was Lakie who designed those categories, although it was extended by someone a little at some point.
19:46:21  <LordAro> andythenorth: the stream thought you looked like an older (but also younger?) Tom Scott, btw
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19:46:55  <TrueBrain> I can understand that, honestly :)
19:47:06  <andythenorth> every video thing I do someone compares me to someone :)
19:48:41  <Timberwolf> Tom is a friend of a friend of mine, it's a bit weird seeing, "oh, that guy I met a couple of times at parties a few years ago is now really famous on the Internet"
19:49:16  <LordAro> Timberwolf: similarly :)
19:49:24  <LordAro> though i've not actually met him as such
19:55:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- if you find something useful in those graphs, tell me :p i think they mostly look the same
20:02:15  <nielsm> wth is going on here:
20:02:29  <nielsm> I'm not touching shift or capslock keys at all, just typing normally hitting letter keys
20:02:54  *** jottyfan has quit IRC
20:03:05  <FLHerne> what
20:03:20  <FLHerne> Does it behave as if the extra caps letters are there?
20:03:24  <nielsm> if I type sufficiently slowly it doesn't happen
20:03:32  <FLHerne> Or are they just a weird text-rendering artefact?
20:03:46  <nielsm> yes they are actual text that will be parsed
20:04:00  <nielsm>
20:05:26  <FLHerne> huh
20:05:30  <LordAro> that's gotta be some weird threading issue
20:05:57  <spnda> OpenTTD is trending again on steam
20:06:46  <andythenorth> so bananas download counts are...?
20:07:13  <LordAro> nielsm: can't reproduce on windows/msys
20:07:17  <andythenorth> it's probably the release of FIRS 4 and RUKTS driving new players to Steam TBH
20:07:20  <spnda> andythenorth: Inexistent
20:09:00  <nielsm> LordAro: it might have to do with slow framerate
20:09:01  <michi_cc> Steam holding steady at 2k5 players.
20:09:48  <nielsm> try with large window size, debug build with all the checks enabled and unoptimised codegen, and then also have a text viewer window open on screen
20:10:00  <Zuu> Stream idea: bet on AIs (in a poll) run it 5-10 years fast forward and see who had highest bank balance or company value?
20:10:36  <Timberwolf> Does Rondje om de Kerk still work? :)
20:11:10  <frosch123> Zuu: problem is the huge lag of like 10 seconds
20:11:25  <frosch123> so it is hard to talk about something that you are showing
20:11:33  <Zuu> Not sure if kalahoot can have the correct answer provided as you go, but if possible they have leader board and scoring of poll players :-p
20:11:43  <spnda> frosch123: Not if TrueBrain shows it over Discord.
20:11:44  <nielsm> yeah it's definitely connected to low framerate, if you hit the keys at the wrong time
20:13:18  <Zuu> hmm.. zoom has this webcast license which I don't think lags but I never hosted one only been guest on kalahoot games over zoom.
20:13:59  <michi_cc> Whoo, more players than servers! "There are 531 clients, 439 IPv4 servers and 90 IPv6 servers in this list."
20:14:03  <LordAro> Timberwolf: not reason why it wouldn't
20:14:05  <LordAro> michi_cc: :o
20:14:11  <LordAro> when was the last time that happened?
20:14:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #89: Change: migrate OpenTTD user mkonstapel to GitHub user mkonstapel
20:17:50  <andythenorth> we use demio or zoom for webcasting
20:18:01  <andythenorth> no particular lags, but it's one presenter at a time usually
20:19:29  <LordAro> spnda: frosch123: yeah, most of the lag is because everything's going via TB's computer
20:20:51  <spnda> its still not gonna lag over discord
20:20:57  <spnda> its like 1 second delay or something
20:21:07  <spnda> because itll make quality suffer if the delay is gonna be high
20:21:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
20:24:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #89: Change: migrate OpenTTD user mkonstapel to GitHub user mkonstapel
20:24:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #89: Change: migrate OpenTTD user mkonstapel to GitHub user mkonstapel
20:25:12  <andythenorth> I should do this
20:25:14  <andythenorth> because race car
20:25:36  <frosch123> TrueBrain: 40% of packages, 23% of authors, migrated :)
20:25:52  <TrueBrain> getting there :D
20:26:11  <LordAro> i must migrate myself at some point :p
20:26:45  <frosch123> new aroai release?
20:27:13  <LordAro> there are a couple of longstanding crashing issues when you have some weird set of newgrfs...
20:27:39  <peter1138> Remove it
20:27:50  <frosch123> haha, you are kind of a unicorn. you exist as both openttd-account and github-account
20:28:01  <LordAro> i did wonder
20:28:12  <LordAro> i have access to open*x after all
20:28:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #90: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LordAro to GitHub user LordAro
20:28:56  <LordAro> :D
20:29:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8931: Remove blob
20:29:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
20:29:20  <LordAro> hmm, i was going to improve the title of that
20:29:21  <LordAro> ah well
20:29:28  <TrueBrain> it fits
20:30:02  <LordAro> it does :)
20:30:20  <LordAro> ...and that broke quickly
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20:30:34  <LordAro> gah, cmake
20:30:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
20:30:50  *** Zuu has joined #openttd
20:30:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] LordAro approved pull request #90: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LordAro to GitHub user LordAro
20:31:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] LordAro merged pull request #90: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LordAro to GitHub user LordAro
20:31:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro merged pull request #181: Change: Link to existing team in request reply message
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20:32:17  <andythenorth> hmm
20:32:20  <andythenorth> maybe I make some newgrf
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20:33:02  <LordAro> ships!
20:33:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8931: Remove blob
20:33:32  <andythenorth> well I need to delete the restaurant cars from Iron Horse
20:33:42  <andythenorth> oof that's fiddly, can't just revert the commit
20:34:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Restaurant cars are nice :-(
20:34:20  <frosch123> TrueBrain: how is your bingo card doing?
20:34:26  <andythenorth> should they just be eye candy FLHerne?
20:34:32  <FLHerne> The costs don't matter, it's just nice to have restaurant cars
20:34:34  <andythenorth> same pax capacity as luxury cars?
20:34:40  <andythenorth> no game effect?
20:34:41  <TrueBrain> in stream it was asked a few times too
20:34:43  <TrueBrain> by the same person
20:34:50  <TrueBrain> owh, that is all the same person
20:34:51  <TrueBrain> :D
20:34:56  <frosch123> loud minority :)
20:35:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I kind of like the idea of the game effect, but you know my opinion of how irrelevant all costs are
20:35:36  <andythenorth> well it has been proven to be wrong and broken
20:35:43  <FLHerne> So probably tmwftlb
20:35:52  <andythenorth> and I can't be bothered to test trains on ffwd for half a day again
20:35:56  <glx> andythenorth: how many times a day do you hit the ceiling ?
20:36:06  <andythenorth> glx maybe twice?
20:36:20  <FLHerne> If you tested it that much, how can the effect be wrong?
20:36:46  <andythenorth> the fact that I missed the obvious bug does not aid my love for the feature :D
20:36:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] michicc opened pull request #204: Add: Announcement for April 9 livestream
20:36:47  <FLHerne> I guess that makes the purchase-window number wrong instead, but who cares
20:37:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
20:37:03  <andythenorth> the bug is so blatant if you stop and do maths :)
20:37:07  <andythenorth> I didn't :(
20:37:07  <michi_cc> LordAro, Timberwolf: I put you two in as participants for now, to be confirmed.
20:37:20  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Well, and you too :)
20:37:34  <TrueBrain> :D
20:37:56  <michi_cc> YouTube link needs to be filled in (or removed) before posting.
20:39:01  <FLHerne> frosch123: Mind approving nml#199 (new builtins) above? Changes look good now, I just squashed the pile of fixup commits together
20:39:39  <FLHerne> I'll address the error-message wording chaos in another PR, it kind of spiraled :p
20:40:19  <andythenorth> hmm
20:40:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TedB86 opened issue #8932: Maximum initial loan amount does not match Game Settings
20:40:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
20:40:56  <andythenorth> kinda said this on the stream but the restaurant cars depend on the cargo aging feature, and that's so map and playstyle dependent
20:41:20  <andythenorth> it's a bit lolz to even try and use, except to force commuter vehicles for towns to be horrible
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20:43:34  * andythenorth wonders about virtual cargo
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20:43:53  <andythenorth> so that station would load / unload, e.g. 40 pax
20:44:03  <andythenorth> but payment algorithm is told that it's e.g. 60 pax
20:44:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8932: Maximum initial loan amount does not match Game Settings
20:44:17  <andythenorth> not sure if that works with transfers
20:44:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 merged pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
20:45:01  <glx> I received a PM during live about city coverage display issue
20:45:31  <glx> gave link to github, but suggested to try forum first
20:47:03  <glx> message was "Hello! I see that city coverage does not work" and wanted to send me a screenshot
20:47:25  <andythenorth> probably just where the tile boundary is drawn, again?
20:48:01  <glx> dunno
20:48:14  <andythenorth> been reported a few times recently
20:48:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
20:48:55  <peter1138> What's that "this feature from a patch pack doesn't work in vanilla"?
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20:50:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #199: Add: support of square root and round functions to builtin functions
20:50:34  <nielsm> hmm can it be right that SCC_PUSH_COLOR control codes are stripped during text layout, and SCC_POP_COLOR control codes are then replaced with the actual color code from the stack?
20:51:01  <frosch123> plausible
20:51:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TedB86 commented on issue #8932: Maximum initial loan amount does not match Game Settings
20:51:17  <nielsm> because it appears character indexes move between me generating the formatted text, and querying the layouter for character positions
20:51:20  <frosch123> languages like tamil or arabic reorder a lot of letters
20:51:26  <frosch123> so colours have to be reordered as well
20:51:34  <nielsm> this is plain english tho
20:51:36  <frosch123> can be split and reappear multiple tmies
20:53:22  *** Samu has joined #openttd
20:53:51  <nielsm> it's not a question of text or glyph reordering, it's a question of a substring I put at position X being at position X-3 (utf8 coding length 3 bytes for control codes) when I query the layouter for which character is at some coordinate
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20:59:23  <frosch123> FLHerne_: what about #173 ? :)
20:59:50  <FLHerne_> Oh, that
21:00:22  <FLHerne_> I think I found the only clean way to do it involved rewriting the world
21:01:50  <FLHerne_> Then I started rewriting the world and got frustrated
21:01:56  <FLHerne_> Perhaps I should look again
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21:03:33  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i think i've found a way to remove array.hpp as well ..but it involves some if constexpr
21:03:40  *** Progman has joined #openttd
21:04:03  <TrueBrain> go for it :D
21:04:57  <nielsm> oh hmm... the layouter does seem to not care for formatting codes at all, actually
21:05:04  *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd
21:05:07  <nielsm> troublesome
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21:08:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
21:09:46  <glx> silly no other compiler reported it
21:09:52  <LordAro> heh
21:09:57  <LordAro> yeah, that's a dumbdumb
21:10:04  <LordAro> size -> empty, but didn't remove the >0
21:16:30  <andythenorth> what if I just removed all cargo aging adjustment from Iron Horse? o_O
21:16:35  <andythenorth> that might be a thing
21:17:06  <andythenorth> I level out vehicles in most dimensions
21:17:11  <andythenorth> 'just eye candy'
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21:21:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8931: Remove blob
21:22:04  <LordAro> +114 −956
21:22:08  <LordAro> this is a good PR
21:22:15  <glx> yes nice numbers
21:23:06  <LordAro> basically everything in misc is "potentially generic stuff but only YAPF uses it"
21:25:17  <TrueBrain> yup!
21:26:57  <glx> hmm even with a game running at less than 4fps I can't reproduce the input duplication
21:30:50  <frosch123> hmm, still can't switch to c++20
21:31:13  <glx> c++20 has nice stuff
21:33:12  <LordAro> modules!
21:33:15  <LordAro> coroutines!
21:33:21  <glx> std::format
21:33:26  <LordAro> but there is no compiler that actually supports them yet
21:33:41  <frosch123> exactly, i was thinking of std::format when reading 8931 :)
21:33:56  <LordAro> i mean, i mentioned it in the description :p
21:34:09  <glx> it's in boost :P
21:34:17  <LordAro> /kick glx
21:34:18  <frosch123> i read descriptions last, for some reason :p
21:34:24  <frosch123> they spoil too much about the diff
21:34:29  <LordAro> haha
21:34:41  <frosch123> anyway, coroutines won't fly before c++23
21:34:51  <frosch123> no library support in c++20
21:34:55  <LordAro> ah yeah
21:36:03  <glx> fun fact about boost, 80% of build time in GHA for grfcodec (without cache) is boost IIRC
21:37:04  <LordAro> this does not surprise me
21:38:34  <glx> mainly because vcpkg includes almost every thing when only 2 or 3 packages are used
21:39:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
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21:40:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
21:41:41  <LordAro> i was afraid about that
21:42:01  <LordAro> most of the pointer usage is unnecessary
21:42:14  <frosch123> just replace vector -> deque, and it should be fine
21:44:07  <frosch123> SmallArray has the properties of a deque, as i read it
21:46:43  <frosch123> no idea whether the order in those hashtables matters, otherwise std::unordered_map may also be an option
21:46:55  <frosch123> but the order in std::unordered_map will be compiler specific :)
21:47:03  <spnda> or unordered_set if its a list
21:47:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
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21:58:37  <LordAro> frosch123: the whole CSegmentCostCacheT class is just (afaict) an unordered_map acting as a cache
21:59:15  <frosch123> probably, but to not derail the PR into infinity, maybe do that later?
21:59:25  <LordAro> likely, yeah
21:59:29  <frosch123> for now std::deque seeems to be an exact match for smallarray
21:59:41  <LordAro> nah, probably best to take the commit out entirely
21:59:46  <LordAro> as per michi_cc comment
22:00:12  <LordAro> it's nothing to do with the original issue anyway
22:00:14  <frosch123> SmallArray: Implemented as fixed size array of fixed size arrays
22:00:26  <frosch123> std::deque: typical implementations use a sequence of individually allocated fixed-size arrays
22:00:40  <frosch123> sounds pretty equivalent :)
22:00:48  <LordAro> "probably"
22:03:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8931: Remove blob
22:03:39  <milek7_> binaryheap sounds like it could be replaced with multiset too
22:04:20  *** milek7_ is now known as milek7
22:04:27  *** milek7 has joined #openttd
22:06:51  <frosch123> @LordAro pushed 0 commits.   <- awesome notification :)
22:07:06  <LordAro> lol
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22:11:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
22:13:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
22:16:35  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: are you still using the METL label anywhere?
22:19:00  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ seems not
22:19:30  <snail_UES_> right, that’s why I was asking you. I found it in my code though. Can you recall if it came from an old version of FIRS?
22:20:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
22:20:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gassmark opened issue #8933: Crash on Startup
22:21:02  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ it was in FIRS < v4
22:21:23  <snail_UES_> alright. So I guess I’ll have to keep it for compatibility’s sake
22:21:50  <LordAro> that's fun
22:22:26  <andythenorth> so...shall we officially conclude, there's no way to differentiate between vehicles based on their cargo payment rate?
22:22:40  * andythenorth would be happy to bury this issue and plant flowers
22:23:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8933: Crash on Startup
22:23:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8931: Remove blob
22:24:35  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: sadly I have to agree with you. The only way to differentiate is cargo aging, but that works in a weird way because of its implementation
22:24:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8931: Remove blob
22:24:48  <andythenorth> it will never work in a good way due to map sizes
22:24:51  <andythenorth> and players
22:25:36  <frosch123> "xaudio2" <- funny, that sounds like a osx thing
22:25:45  <andythenorth> JGR thinks a simple multiplier to cargo payment rate isn't possible, due to transfer credits iirc
22:26:00  <andythenorth> and the custom profit callback on the cargos is absolutely useless afaict
22:26:13  <andythenorth> those 2 are in my top 3 useless features :)
22:27:23  <snail_UES_> there should be a profit multiplier for each vehicle
22:27:39  <nielsm> yeah you'd probably have to somehow alter payments so you are paid out after each leg of a multi-step transfer to do it properly
22:27:49  <snail_UES_> it could be like a vehicle “property” you can alter through CB36
22:28:17  <nielsm> and then you'd run into the issue of what happens when cargo en-route is deleted from a crowded station, and what happens when you transport it "backwards"
22:28:32  <nielsm> should you then charge/"fine" the player?
22:28:48  <snail_UES_> couldn’t it be just as simple as a multiplier?
22:29:05  <snail_UES_> let the game compute the profit the way it currently does it
22:29:36  <frosch123> you would have to track percentage of time traveled in vehicle of qualitiy x
22:29:38  <snail_UES_> then it gets multiplied by that factor according to the vehicle it was transported in… in that specific leg of a multi-step transfer
22:29:40  <frosch123> it's possible to add that
22:29:49  <frosch123> it's mostly the same as cargo aging
22:30:12  <frosch123> summing both "qualtity*time" and "total time" and then dividing them in the end, to get an average
22:30:14  <nielsm> yes, like "spent X days in a luxury car" tracked on cargo packet level
22:30:36  <frosch123> what "qualitiy" does "waiting at station" imply?
22:30:43  <frosch123> punish long transfer times? :p
22:31:02  <nielsm> right now cargo is in stasis while waiting at station, I'm quite sure
22:31:05  <nielsm> time doesn't pass for it
22:31:33  <snail_UES_> frosch123: why not. I’d get pissed off if I had to spend a huge amount of time in a station just to wait for the next train
22:31:57  <frosch123> snail_UES_: so, both a vehicle property and a station property :p
22:31:58  <nielsm> until the station is starting to run out of storage, or angry rating-mobs begin sabotaging it
22:32:24  <snail_UES_> well, we could start implementing it as a vehicle property
22:32:37  <frosch123> vehicle is certainly easier
22:32:50  <frosch123> station would want to distinguish storage per cargotype and amount waiting etc
22:32:54  <nielsm> I'll have to assume the reason cargo disappears from a station when the rating drops too low is because locals see the cargo just sitting there without ever going anywhere, so they decide to go in and steal it
22:32:59  <frosch123> vehicles already know all that stuff
22:34:49  <_dp_> oh, btw, I updated citymania website along with profit calc, you can edit individual trains now including cargo aging
22:34:51  <_dp_>
22:36:07  <nielsm> someone forgot to update the "Supported platforms" in readme to indicate the OpenGL output support
22:39:03  <andythenorth> so we could have payment multiplier?
22:39:26  <frosch123> if it is better tested than aging :p
22:39:58  <andythenorth> don't trust me to test it, I missed that actual running costs were 3x more than purchase menu says
22:40:02  <andythenorth> oof
22:40:30  <andythenorth> very funny bug
22:40:39  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ will test it!
22:40:44  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ doesn't make that kind of mistake
22:41:19  <snail_UES_> I can test it, as long as it comes in an OTTD version I can run on this machine
22:41:38  <snail_UES_> right now I can compile the latest JGR patchpack with no issues, but I can’t compile vanilla OTTD
22:44:07  <andythenorth> ha ha ha I don't have a reddit account but maybe I should get one
22:44:11  <andythenorth> excellent trolling
22:44:54  <andythenorth> maybe that's TB's sock puppet? :)
22:48:07  <frosch123> you mean Xaroth?
22:48:15  <andythenorth> maybe there's a fleet of them
22:48:18  <Xaroth> Wait what
22:48:35  <Xaroth> I have feelings you know!
22:48:48  <Xaroth> and I very much oppose the mental image of being used as a sock puppet by TB...
22:49:00  <FLHerne> snail_UES_: There are nightly downloads (again?) now
22:49:02  <andythenorth> oof :)
22:49:16  <andythenorth> FLHerne for PRs though?
22:49:33  <frosch123> there are manual builds for PRs
22:49:33  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you add the `preview` tag, yes
22:50:27  <frosch123> Xaroth: hug?
22:50:49  <Xaroth> I was more thinking of needing a shower, that mental image made me feel dirty.
22:50:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
22:51:12  <glx> <snail_UES_> right now I can compile the latest JGR patchpack with no issues, but I can’t compile vanilla OTTD <-- weird, do you have details on why it fails ?
22:51:28  <FLHerne> andythenorth, snail_UES_ for that matter, you can try it in the browser... e.g.
22:51:59  <andythenorth> this is the newgrf extension thing :)
22:52:06  <snail_UES_> it fails, because the OTTD developers graciously decided to require at least C++17
22:52:09  <andythenorth> livestream wasn't long enough for frosch to cover it :)
22:52:17  <andythenorth> newgrf extension requires
22:52:20  <andythenorth> - PR
22:52:26  <snail_UES_> effectively locking my computer out (I’ve got MacOS 10.12)
22:52:27  <andythenorth> - nml patch or similar
22:52:31  <andythenorth> - test grf
22:52:40  <glx> oh
22:52:44  <snail_UES_> JGR did something that allowed me to compile it on this computer. I’m not sure about the details
22:52:57  <andythenorth>
22:53:01  <andythenorth> 'always two there are'
22:54:22  <frosch123> haha, it was weird when somone brought up the driving-backwards thing
22:54:31  <frosch123> when i planned to talk about that in the "failz" section :p
22:54:58  <andythenorth> I was hoping you had a runaway train patch
22:55:13  <andythenorth> "this train couldn't make the hill and is now rolling backwards"
22:55:20  <andythenorth> and it wouldn't be able to make PBS reservations
22:55:40  <andythenorth> do we need switchable junctions?
22:55:47  <andythenorth> PBS reservation drawing tool?
22:55:50  <frosch123> i have a story for a nice troll patch, but i still need to implement it, and check whether it turns out as cool as in my head :p
22:55:59  <frosch123> will happend some later stream
22:56:02  <glx> nielsm: funny, this time it's not MSVC complaining about signed/unsigned comparison
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22:58:32  <andythenorth> would payment rate multiplier be a static prop?  or cb?
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23:01:00  <frosch123> same as aging
23:02:25  <frosch123> property + cb36 + called only rarely
23:03:04  <frosch123> so, not date-dependent multiplier :)
23:03:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
23:03:24  <frosch123> probably also not load-amount specific
23:05:49  <andythenorth> vehicle age? o_O
23:05:57  * andythenorth won't do that, but I can see why people might
23:08:41  <frosch123> quality should be constant during travel :)
23:08:46  <snail_UES_> if this new property is in cb36, we can make it dependent on anything we want :)
23:09:07  <frosch123> no, because ottd will cache the result
23:09:15  <frosch123> it won't be called every tick for every vehicle :)
23:09:26  <snail_UES_> frosch123: right, but I was thinking about refitting cycle
23:09:42  <snail_UES_> plus vehicle ID and vehicle age, probably
23:09:43  <frosch123> cargo-aging only changes inside depot and stuff, it's on the "rarest update" level
23:09:54  <snail_UES_> that would be fine with me
23:10:01  <frosch123> "vehicle age" is a problem. the rest is fine
23:10:17  <snail_UES_> hmm, how about “year of built"?
23:10:22  <snail_UES_> that should work, right?
23:10:23  <frosch123> that's fine again
23:10:53  <frosch123> everything that does not change during travel, just due to time progressing
23:10:58  <snail_UES_> so year of built, vehicle ID, refitting cycle, presence of other vehicle IDs in the consist
23:11:16  <snail_UES_> ^^ this would be more than enough for me
23:15:50  <andythenorth> are we missing any pitfalls?
23:16:10  <andythenorth> as I see it, this is an alternative dimension to capacity etc
23:16:39  <andythenorth> does a simple multiplier work for different map sizes etc?
23:17:07  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
23:18:04  <andythenorth> cargo payment has that weird shape chart
23:18:30  <andythenorth> (on profit per 1000 cargo units chart)
23:18:42  <andythenorth> income peaks, declines, rises again
23:19:46  <andythenorth> this would just move the shape up and down the axis?
23:20:16  <_dp_> because at some point cargo payment becomes constant
23:20:32  <_dp_> multiplier will just scale in on y as I understand it
23:20:40  <_dp_> so basically do nothing :p
23:20:58  <snail_UES_> more than move the shape, it’d slightly change the slope (being a multiplier)
23:21:58  <snail_UES_> _dp_ : why do nothing? if a first class coach has a multiplier of 1.1 , vs a 2nd class coach with the default multiplier of 1, the former will always give you more profit than the latter
23:22:23  <andythenorth> depends what other dimensions you change, e.g. capacity
23:22:26  <snail_UES_> while having a lower capacity
23:23:04  <_dp_> if some is always better why bother using the other?
23:23:26  <snail_UES_> the cargo payment curve is always declining with time, right? and it’s pretty steep for passengers
23:24:08  <_dp_> it all becomes constant at some point
23:24:23  <snail_UES_> so what we ultimately need is a better cargo aging :p something that flattens the payment curve, rising it up for long travel times
23:25:16  <snail_UES_> _dp_ : not really… for passengers, it’s constantly declining
23:25:45  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ it's way too hard to define 'long'
23:26:12  <snail_UES_> but we could still flatten that curve… reducing the slope while maintaining the intercept constant
23:26:44  <andythenorth> that's what the current property does?
23:26:50  <andythenorth> or not?
23:26:59  <snail_UES_> cargo aging?
23:27:13  <snail_UES_> I don’t know how it’s implemented. I just did some tests, and it works like a hyperbula. It’s not linear.
23:27:28  <snail_UES_> this is why it doesn’t work very well in a game
23:28:24  <andythenorth> it just modifies how often cargo is aged iirc
23:28:29  * andythenorth didn't google it in spec
23:28:51  <snail_UES_> maybe the multiplier we’re discussing about could be itself multiplied by the number of days in transit, normalized in some way. So it would have a stronger effect for longer journeys
23:29:09  <andythenorth> you can't really define 'longer' in OpenTTD
23:29:19  <andythenorth> it's beyond the scope of a vehicle set author :)
23:29:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: snail_UES_: can you draw what the curve shall look like?
23:29:30  <andythenorth> I can't
23:29:37  <snail_UES_> let me give it a try
23:29:53  <frosch123> cargo aging scaled the curve in horizontal direction
23:30:02  <frosch123> a payment multiplier would scale it in vertical direction
23:30:10  <andythenorth> yes
23:30:11  <frosch123> but the shape of the curve stays the same in both cases
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23:30:24  <andythenorth> if some vehicles pay more than others, it needs to be not dimensioned by travel time
23:30:39  <andythenorth> otherwise it just replicated current property, but differently
23:30:44  <andythenorth> replicates *
23:31:00  <andythenorth> travel time is a meaningless thing for vehicle set authors to attend to
23:31:23  <andythenorth> it's influenced too much by cargo grf, player style, daylength, map size, vehicle speeds etc
23:32:31  <snail_UES_> I made a png, how can I share it?
23:32:39  <andythenorth> discord :P
23:33:22  <andythenorth> github gist?
23:34:07  <snail_UES_> frosch123: yes, it would scale it in vertical direction. Days in transit could enter into the calculation, to scale it more heavily upwards on the “right” of the curve
23:35:52  <_dp_> snail_UES_,
23:36:10  <snail_UES_> _dp_ : the opposite
23:36:18  <snail_UES_> I’d show it to you if I had a place where to share my png...
23:37:10  <snail_UES_> wait, when I look at the cargo payment rate on ottd, it stops at 200 days for me
23:37:27  <_dp_> yeah, I patched it
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23:37:36  <_dp_> to show more
23:37:48  <andythenorth> for restaurant cars I considered that after more days, the payment rate goes _up_ :P
23:37:51  <andythenorth> due to sale of beer
23:37:52  <andythenorth> and pies
23:37:59  <frosch123> 400 days for 20 tiles is a lot :p
23:38:05  <andythenorth> see also Casino Cruise Ships
23:38:15  <snail_UES_>
23:38:38  <_dp_> frosch123, well, distance is jut a multiplier so it only changes y scale
23:38:44  <snail_UES_> the grey line is the original cargo payment rate for passengers
23:38:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: by that logic you make a lot of money by building a circle that drives pax around the map, and unloads them at the start station again :p
23:38:52  <snail_UES_> I added the orange one
23:38:55  <andythenorth> frosch123 yes
23:39:07  <andythenorth> I tried doing it with negative running costs
23:39:13  <andythenorth> but run cost is unsigned sadly
23:39:27  <andythenorth> I showed the flash game I made for Railroad Tycoon 3 release?
23:39:36  <andythenorth> you could win by building a loop
23:39:55  <andythenorth> we can't sign run costs because someone somewhere might have used > 128 as the value
23:40:11  <andythenorth> or whatever the equivalent is for CB
23:40:16  <andythenorth> 32k maybe?
23:40:41  <snail_UES_> the final result could be : multiplier * (number of days in travel/X)
23:40:50  <snail_UES_> where X is the number at which the payment rate becomes flat
23:41:11  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ you propose 2 properties or one? :)
23:41:26  <frosch123> what was the exact problem with cargo aging?
23:41:33  <snail_UES_> one. This is a suggection on how the multiplier could work
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23:41:37  <frosch123> is it's range too small?
23:41:44  <snail_UES_> frosch123: I don’t know how it was implemented, code-wise
23:41:47  <andythenorth> cargo aging only shows an effect when reduced
23:41:52  <andythenorth> in games I play
23:41:59  <andythenorth> other authors found similar
23:42:09  <snail_UES_> but when I tested it, I saw it was only effective on really long journeys, and the numbers to assign to aging were really weird
23:42:18  <andythenorth> someone will turn up now and then with a 4k map and 35mph boats and prove it's a wonderful feature
23:42:21  <snail_UES_> like, above a certain number it wouldn’t matter anymore
23:42:34  <andythenorth> well DP's charts show the issue
23:42:53  <andythenorth> cargo aging will only affect a portion of the grf
23:43:06  <andythenorth> graph *
23:43:07  <andythenorth> oof
23:43:47  <andythenorth> so if it's a straight choice of, e.g. faster loading, lower paying, or slower loading, higher paying...cargo aging is no use
23:44:02  <andythenorth> and to make e.g. luxury pax cars requires nerfing the 'normal' ones
23:44:12  <andythenorth> and commuter transport e.g. metro has to be super nerfed
23:46:03  <_dp_> imo you just can't have same payments balanced for every map size
23:46:13  <_dp_> can newgrf change payments on map size though?
23:46:36  <snail_UES_> ok, I got back some results of a test I ran back in 2011
23:46:49  <frosch123> yes, newgrf can read mapsize
23:47:02  <_dp_> well, that may be a solution then
23:47:23  <frosch123> but if you make small distances pay nothing, it will be a rough early game :p
23:47:28  <snail_UES_> being a hyperbola, the cargo aging parameter heavily decreases revenue until a value of about 100
23:47:40  <_dp_> frosch123, increase the loan :p
23:47:44  <frosch123> and one person got very upset when stuff became 50% more expensive :p
23:47:48  <snail_UES_> it get somewhat linear between 100 and 150
23:48:04  <snail_UES_> it flattens between 150 and 300
23:48:19  <snail_UES_> and beyond 300, it’s got no effect at all (asymptotically flat)
23:48:21  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ you know newgrf cargo moves the numbers around?
23:48:33  <andythenorth> probably gets similar numbers, but eh
23:49:24  <snail_UES_> frosch123: right, that’s why we need cargo aging to increase revenue for longer journeys…
23:49:41  <snail_UES_> the way it’s implemented, as Andy said, it’s only good to decrease revenues for shorter journeys
23:50:18  <frosch123> this sounds like a lot of hearsay to me :p i probably need to play with dp's graphs
23:50:34  <snail_UES_> my suggestion would be to make it less of a hyperbola and more of a linear function. Maybe something like log(distance) or sqrt(distance)
23:51:27  <frosch123> changing that is no per-vehicle thing
23:51:48  <_dp_> I think I tried sqrt(distance) at some point, that's junk
23:52:07  <_dp_> and log even more so ofc
23:53:05  <snail_UES_> frosch123: but it might fix “cargo aging”, which is a per-vehicle thing...
23:53:18  <snail_UES_> if cargo aging worked as intended, we wouldn’t need any new property
23:53:31  <andythenorth> afaict cargo aging works exactly as intended
23:53:50  <andythenorth> although I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to have an implementation error :)
23:54:09  <andythenorth> but relying on days in transit to balance other factors...makes no sense
23:54:26  <andythenorth> it imposes a very specific play style with respect to distance
23:54:44  <andythenorth> authors can and should make some choices about playstyle, but distance is so variable in OpenTTD
23:54:58  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: alright. If we don’t want to change cargo aging, then what I’d suggest would be a multiplier to the payment rate, which in its turn gets multiplied by the traveled distance (if you don’t like days in transit)
23:55:45  <andythenorth> not sure how that helps :)
23:55:51  <snail_UES_> the final payment rate could be :  original payment rate * (1 + multiplier * log(traveled distance) )
23:55:54  <andythenorth> that's just another thing to fight against players?
23:56:10  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: why fight against players?
23:56:20  <andythenorth> players will choose 64x64 and 16k x 16k maps, and expect the train set to work
23:56:35  <andythenorth> imposing your choices about distance a waste of time?
23:56:37  <andythenorth> dunno :)
23:56:48  <andythenorth> what do I miss?
23:56:56  <snail_UES_> then how about log(traveled distance / map size) ?
23:57:00  <andythenorth> why not just multiply the payment rate?
23:57:11  <andythenorth> and use the cargo aging prop also if you want?
23:57:33  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: because if we just multiply the payment rate, 1st class coaches will “always” be better or worse than 2nd class coaches
23:57:41  <andythenorth> yes
23:57:48  <andythenorth> 1st class always costs more than 2nd
23:57:53  <snail_UES_> if we put traveled distance in the formula, 1st class coaches will be better for long journeys, and 2nd class better for short ones
23:58:10  <andythenorth> but then you have to choose the distance
23:58:25  <andythenorth> I dunno, you can already do that with cargo aging
23:58:31  <andythenorth> conversation confuse me greatly
23:58:32  <frosch123> ok, so the goal is to have vehicles specialise in long distance and short distance
23:58:39  <andythenorth> not my goal :)
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23:58:44  <andythenorth> we already have that property
23:58:57  <snail_UES_> but it doesn’t work very well...
23:58:57  <frosch123> loading speed?
23:59:02  <andythenorth> my goal is to balance e.g. loading speed vs payment
23:59:07  <andythenorth> or capacity vs. payment
23:59:11  <andythenorth> or red trains pay more
23:59:15  <andythenorth> blue trains pay less
23:59:47  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ it doesn't work very well because openttd payment rates are a bit mad
23:59:51  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes, but a luxury train won’t pay more if you’re just moving between two underground stops
23:59:56  <andythenorth> why not?

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