Log for #openttd on 4th April 2021:
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05:28:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
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06:41:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8938: Codechange: Use COINIT_MULTITHREADED in CoInitializeEx
06:45:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
06:49:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
07:01:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8931: Remove blob
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07:05:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh requested changes for pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
07:10:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8939: Object selection window button doesn't appear lowered after clicking on it
07:11:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
07:11:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] undeniablebis opened issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
07:14:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
07:14:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
07:18:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
07:21:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] smsm1 commented on issue #8935: Crash on save on macOS
07:29:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] undeniablebis commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
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07:35:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
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08:02:49  <andythenorth> yo
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08:27:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on issue #8935: Crash on save on macOS
08:27:44  <peter1138> Hello
08:29:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] undeniablebis commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
08:30:54  <peter1138> "My graphics card is GeForce 720m v388.73" Seems kinda ancient now...
08:31:29  <Timberwolf> The most modern graphics card you can actually buy and get delivered within 1-3 days!
08:32:09  <peter1138> Heh
08:33:20  <nielsm> that's almost identical to my setup except I have a geforce 2060 (desktop, rtx), and then driver version 456.1
08:33:35  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: I have a theory that every UK GRF author will eventually find themselves in Pikka's Koan.
08:33:47  <Timberwolf> The novice does not understand, and builds no grf.
08:34:06  <Timberwolf> The initiate builds a grf with many vehicles and features, and is frustrated they do not work exactly as hoped.
08:34:18  <Timberwolf> They learn that features are bad, and should not be used.
08:34:29  <Timberwolf> They learn that nobody wants 2x or EZ, and it should not be used.
08:34:44  <Timberwolf> They learn that there should be a single optimal locomotive and wagon at each point in the game.
08:35:07  <Timberwolf> They learn that for a UK set, those are the Jinty, the A4, the Class 25, 37, 47, the HST...
08:35:15  <Timberwolf> The expert understands, and builds no grf.
08:36:20  <peter1138> :/
08:39:20  <Timberwolf> m versions of Nvidia GPUs can have a weird setup where they swap between intel GPU and accelerated one.
08:39:55  <Timberwolf> Not sure if the 720m has it, I have a laptop with an 870m that does.
08:40:30  <Timberwolf> I'll see if I can reproduce it later.
08:40:42  <andythenorth> Does a grf that isn't built in a forest make any sound if no-one is there to here it?
08:40:44  <andythenorth> hear *
08:41:45  <andythenorth> I am going to have a break from grf for a bit
08:41:51  <andythenorth> graphviz is a lot more interesting
08:41:55  <andythenorth> and equally annoying
08:42:14  <andythenorth> strictly it's grfgraphviz
08:42:29  <nielsm> grfwiz
08:43:01  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: depends if it uses callback 33.
08:43:15  <andythenorth> we could _probably_ make bananas generate these for all industry grfs?
08:43:37  <nielsm>  working on something
08:43:59  <andythenorth> 'finally sound mixing in the game options'
08:44:05  <andythenorth> OpenTTD 2.0 then
08:44:41  * andythenorth looks how Timberwolf solved luxury pax coaches
08:45:01  <Timberwolf> I didn't, it just uses cargo aging ineffectually same as everyone else.
08:45:28  <Timberwolf> It kind of works for preserved railways, but only because the speeds are very low and the values so extreme.
08:45:31  <peter1138> nielsm, can we also make the volume sliders coherent?
08:45:41  <peter1138> Currently I hear no differences between half-way and max...
08:45:43  <Timberwolf> (25mph limit, then cargo aging ranges from 74 to 500 or so)
08:46:00  <nielsm> peter1138 I guess that has to do with logarithms and stuff
08:46:34  <Timberwolf> In that case it highlights how weird the aging algorithm is - you change the optimal length of route more than anything.
08:47:32  <andythenorth> I was hoping for a cunning plan
08:47:36  <andythenorth> that I could copy
08:48:36  <peter1138> Also: apply the master effect volume to the output, not to volume of sounds that are started.
08:49:00  <peter1138> Currently volumes of existing sounds are not changed!
08:49:20  <peter1138> But... that's all separate to making sliders in a useful place. Maybe I should look...
08:53:12  * andythenorth looks how running cost is actually applied in the game
08:53:26  <andythenorth> wondering if we can have a newgrf callback to calculate it every n ticks
08:54:09  <Timberwolf> It is on a callback which gets updated pretty frequently, I use that.
08:55:04  <andythenorth> I need to calculate it proportional to how long since the cargo loaded
08:55:15  <andythenorth> I am trying to implement a multiplier on the cargo payment
08:55:20  <Timberwolf> Interesting.
08:55:33  <andythenorth> so if I copy all the FIRS payment rate values into Horse (I can script this)
08:55:48  <Timberwolf> This is my running cost - it's a bit of a spaghetti because the "lower ramp up for early vehicles" was a last-minute hack.
08:55:50  <andythenorth> then re-implement the openttd cargo payment calculation inside Horse
08:56:01  <andythenorth> then measure the current amount of cargo
08:56:24  <andythenorth> then measure the days elapsed since the cargo loaded
08:56:54  <andythenorth> I can calculate run costs vs. the amount that will be earnt
08:57:20  <andythenorth> so that some vehicles earn 10% more or 10% less than others for the same journey
08:57:50  <peter1138> Also more 2x sprites please.
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09:02:33  <andythenorth> hmm I can't think of any worse ways to do a payment multiplier
09:02:41  <andythenorth> I did try
09:03:32  <Timberwolf> GS!
09:04:36  <andythenorth> I think you'll find my suggestion is entirely sensible
09:04:42  <andythenorth> whereas GS is just...silly
09:05:01  <andythenorth> I did consider if we can manipulate infrastructure maintenance costs
09:05:53  <nielsm> holy--- I managed to actually get the two volume sliders to be the exact same size!!
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09:23:06  <nielsm>
09:27:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #8943: Volume controls in Game Options window
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09:40:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
09:41:42  <nielsm> we've already spent more time and energy on #8941 than will ever be saved in cpu cycles by merging it
09:58:40  <andythenorth> :)
10:01:12  * andythenorth makes graphviz
10:05:36  <nielsm> so will an offline party for issue #10000 be possible, anyone think?
10:06:37  <andythenorth> zoom quiz!
10:06:42  <andythenorth> do a livestream nielsm :)
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10:38:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
10:38:58  <TrueBrain> we should change the template to ask for both crash.log and crash.dmp, but that they should zip the .dmp :D
10:40:15  <_dp_> will it help when they just delete the template anyway? :p
10:41:32  <nielsm> TrueBrain: otoh the crash.log file indicates it's already deep in the nvidia driver when it crashes
10:47:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
10:49:44  <TrueBrain> nielsm: there is a reason I ask for these things ;)
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10:52:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] undeniablebis commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
10:55:52  <peter1138> Someone mentioned it could be something to do with Optimus.
10:56:13  <peter1138> Which I would imagine is most likely out of OpenTTD's control.
11:07:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
11:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: what would an offline party look like nowadays?
11:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> also, we have a naming conflict, we already had a 10k party
11:23:13  <_dp_> 10k-2 party
11:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there was no r10000 :p
11:23:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the cake was a lie
11:29:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: would you use "cost_factor: auto;" and "running_cost_factor: auto;" in NML? :p
11:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what would that do?
11:32:19  <andythenorth> frosch123 'it depends'
11:32:42  <andythenorth> I already auto-calculate most of the costs
11:32:58  <andythenorth> ideally I'd set a spread, and just delegate the rest somewhere
11:33:00  <frosch123> yeah, expected somethingl ike that :)
11:33:56  <andythenorth> if I could delegate the costs, I probably would, if the per-vehicle option for over-rides existed
11:34:14  <andythenorth> setting costs tends towards 'balancing', which I hate
11:34:29  <andythenorth> let OpenTTD balance :P
11:34:56  <frosch123> can we somehow encrypt add-ons, so that their balancing can be a secret, and people have to play and interpret its behavior, instead of trash-talking the implementation?
11:35:07  <andythenorth> ha
11:35:10  <andythenorth> dunno :D
11:35:44  <frosch123> economy-as-a-service
11:35:59  <andythenorth> somewhat :)
11:36:59  <andythenorth> as a vehicle author, I just wanted to let player explore capacity and/or loading speed as choices
11:37:10  <andythenorth> alongside vehicle speed
11:37:12  <frosch123> if we add instrumentation and phoning-home to openttd, we can train some neural net
11:37:18  <andythenorth> o_O
11:37:47  <frosch123> "do you want to participate in balancing this add-on, you can opt-in to send usage and profits statistics"
11:39:48  <frosch123> hmm, people wanted bananas download statistics. but aren't usage statistics more interesting? the flat-bed wagon generation 5C was built 1.5 billion times?
11:40:58  <frosch123> it has transported 4.5 petatons of steel
11:42:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8937: Ships saying they are lost
11:42:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8937: Ships saying they are lost
11:45:22  <andythenorth> frosch123 arbitrary statistics are super :)
11:45:42  <peter1138> Could you make a bot that connects to multiplayer servers, lists every vehicle, and... keeps doing it over time.
11:45:53  <peter1138> Just to annoy server owners with pause-on-join :D
11:46:13  <peter1138> And players, for that matter.
11:48:49  <frosch123> how about a master-password for servers and admin ports?
11:49:15  <frosch123> when advertising to the master server, you have to provide an ssh key with root access
11:51:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8944: Fix #8935: [OSX] Crash when clicking 'Save' due to wrongly-threaded OS call.
11:51:25  <michi_cc> andythenorth: ^^^ Something to check
11:51:29  <andythenorth> I will test that later if nobody else does
11:51:33  * andythenorth going out shortly
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11:52:13  <TrueBrain> so you will be testing it later :D
11:52:14  <TrueBrain> :P
11:53:15  <andythenorth> that was my assumption too
11:53:25  <andythenorth> but you never know, maybe we get new contribs
11:59:49  <peter1138> bjarni could always turn up
12:00:04  <TrueBrain> grrr, I hate MSVC debugging tool
12:04:50  <andythenorth> bbl
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12:11:15  <Timberwolf> OK, my 870m laptop doesn't immediately repro that crash :(
12:11:34  <Timberwolf> In fact it improves things, OBS used to capture a blank screen because it only captured things running on the GPU.
12:11:51  * Timberwolf has a go at shifting OpenTTD to the Intel GPU.
12:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> "do you want to participate in balancing this add-on, you can opt-in to send usage and profits statistics" <-- and a giant red "opt in" button, and opting out takes you through 5 more menus with confusingly named options which all mean "opt in"
12:13:50  <Timberwolf> .. and also fine on Intel (although I can only capture a black screen there)
12:17:15  <Timberwolf> Ooh, a thought - what if OBS is the thing running on integrated.
12:18:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
12:18:58  <peter1138> Not sure I dare install OBS on this old laptop. It struggles to run Windows 10 alone...
12:20:11  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: yup, one of the nice things about OpenGL support is that OBS finally works "correct" :P
12:20:22  <TrueBrain> the way OBS does it, however, is one giant hack :P
12:22:30  <peter1138> Damn, the game crashes when I update drivers under it ;-)
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12:22:34  <TrueBrain> the 720m is not really supported anymore by nvidia, that makes it a bit tricky
12:23:00  <peter1138> That never happened with the old version, must be a new bug!
12:23:16  <TrueBrain> you can file that bug under /dev/null I am afraid :D
12:23:20  <peter1138> :D
12:25:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mattkimber commented on issue #8942: OBS Studio Game Capture crash
12:26:27  <TrueBrain> lol @ blank screen :D
12:26:33  <TrueBrain> doesn't OBS sniff out what GPU is used?
12:26:34  <TrueBrain> sad :)
12:26:40  <peter1138> Also my start menu no longer works, hah.
12:28:03  <peter1138> I guess Steam can be my start menu now.
12:29:16  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: your drivers are a full year newer than what you can get on 720m :D
12:29:25  <TrueBrain> I am curious if there is any fix in between :P
12:32:02  <TrueBrain> "i dont get it, been playing this for years, and now theres a livestream Q&A????" <- what are people saying exactly?
12:32:12  <TrueBrain> you are not allowed to do a livestream Q&A because I have been playing this for years?
12:32:18  <TrueBrain> confused
12:32:29  <spnda> Can I somehow get the DriverFactoryBase instance from the current videodriver?
12:32:51  <peter1138> TrueBrain, that's some special kind of gatekeeping
12:33:07  <TrueBrain> happens a lot on Steam, for some reason :)
12:35:00  <LordAro> curious.
12:35:11  <TrueBrain> <- nice review; some good points, also some very weird statements. A nice mix :) But does underline what we already know :)
12:36:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8936: Add: Plural support for Romanian translations
12:37:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: clearly they want to be on the stream :p
12:37:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I like how you look at the world like that :)
12:38:15  <frosch123> LordAro: random guess: downloading content != enabling them for a new game != affecting older savegames
12:38:25  <LordAro> possible
12:40:47  <_dp_> TrueBrain, that's all because you call it business simulator :p
12:41:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
12:41:16  <TrueBrain> _dp_: where in there it says: realism? :P
12:41:28  <TrueBrain> guess it is a good thing he wasn't comparing sizes of busses with trains :D
12:41:37  <TrueBrain> no, I am kidding, he has some good points
12:41:41  <TrueBrain> economy is weird :)
12:41:49  <_dp_> TrueBrain, somewhere in the word simulator :p
12:42:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yay, the game description on twitch is already updated
12:43:07  <TrueBrain> \o/
12:43:37  <frosch123> someone will be angry about "gpl 2.0" :p
12:44:28  <TrueBrain> all changes got accepted in full, sweet
12:45:02  <TrueBrain> lol @ frosch123 :D
12:45:40  <TrueBrain> now the tag "Open World" is added
12:45:43  <TrueBrain> I did not do that :P
12:47:34  <frosch123> at least it's no walking simulator
12:49:14  <_dp_> clicker
12:49:20  <_dp_> all you do is click-click-click :p
12:50:18  <_dp_> lol, reviews
12:50:28  <_dp_> apparently openttd is a bad factorio
12:51:11  <_dp_> oh, wait, that's not openttd review xDDD
12:51:35  * _dp_ got lost in steam uii
12:51:50  <frosch123> now we want to know which game you were looking at :p
12:52:50  <_dp_>
12:53:00  <TrueBrain> that is a fun game :D
12:53:02  <TrueBrain> even bought it on Steam
12:53:30  <frosch123> well, the similarity to factorio is obvious :)
13:05:30  <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: makes sense, I think the GPU family is... about a year newer.
13:08:23  <Timberwolf> I think people are a bit surprised by a 17 year old game having active development to the point of, "people will come on a stream and answer your questions"
13:08:29  <_dp_> is all that really necessary just to make cmake copy some files?
13:09:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 opened pull request #40: Add: plural form 14, used in Romanian.
13:13:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8936: Add: Plural support for Romanian translations
13:15:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 updated pull request #40: Add: plural form 14, used in Romanian.
13:17:09  <FLHerne> _dp_: It's true, OpenTTD was so bad at being Factorio that V453000 went off and made Factorio instead :p
13:17:49  <FLHerne> The other review guy wants YACDist :p
13:17:56  * FLHerne also wants YACDist
13:18:24  <FLHerne> And the random disconnected industries annoy me too
13:18:42  <FLHerne> I make a point of building roads to all of them ASAP, whether or not they're being serviced yet
13:19:03  <Timberwolf> Dwarf Fortress level civilisation modelling or nothing.
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13:19:28  <frosch123> FLHerne: there are several GS to connect towns via roads
13:19:39  <Timberwolf> What does the church in Flundinghattan worship? Why was it built? What decorations adorn the walls?
13:19:41  <frosch123> or were they AIs?
13:19:43  <FLHerne> Yeah, but only one GS per game
13:19:56  <FLHerne> There's WMDot AI, but it's slow
13:20:10  <Timberwolf> CivilAI used to do it IIRC, although Pikka took it out as weird and annoying for people who didn't want loads of town connections.
13:20:16  <FLHerne> and all the AI roadpathfinders build stupid-looking ugly grids that don't fit the terrain nicely
13:20:55  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: One of the town building sets (UK Town Set?) has churches with dedications
13:21:03  <FLHerne> if you use the info button on them
13:21:11  <Timberwolf> Needs to be fully procedural!
13:22:19  <Timberwolf> The road between Flundinghattan and Plartown is ugly and grid like, but you check the church and see it was built by the civilisation of the Brazen Dragon, who found grid-like structures attractive.
13:23:13  <Timberwolf> Need things like ancient forts and castles as alternatives to transmitters. :)
13:23:14  <FLHerne> "famous for its pink volcanoes"
13:23:48  <FLHerne> ECS Tourist industries
13:24:04  <FLHerne> Lots of fancy castles
13:24:16  <Timberwolf> "This company statue depicts a bus transporting cave rabbits. The bus is striking a menacing pose. The cave rabbits are striking a menacing pose."
13:25:53  <FLHerne> Now that's definitely dwarf fortress
13:29:19  <frosch123> hmm, i don't know how eints works :(
13:29:31  <aperezdc> There is also Transmitter by Date, which I personally find quite neat
13:29:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: if not you, who does?! :D
13:30:19  <aperezdc> Doesn't really have big castles, but it has a couple of old timey brick/stone towers
13:30:36  <aperezdc> It could use a bit of randomization, tho
13:31:35  <glx> frosch123: no need to update romanian.txt in openttd repo ?
13:32:53  <peter1138> Hmm, why does git tell me whole functions have been changed when there's no changes...
13:33:05  <peter1138> I suspect EOL style but it's not exactly apparent.
13:35:29  <frosch123> glx: i am trying to figure that out :) currently i think "#8936 should also update romanian.txt". but in my test enviroment it does not work either way :p
13:35:33  <Zuu> `git diff --ignore-space-change` is handy sometimes
13:37:25  <LordAro> git should be better at eol stuff
13:37:30  <LordAro> (than svn)
13:38:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] LordAro approved pull request #40: Add: plural form 14, used in Romanian.
13:39:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #8945: Fix: Apply master effect volume during mixing instead of sound start.
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13:42:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: isn't there what the sync_language stuff is for?
13:42:53  <frosch123> my local eints doesn't even accept a new base language :p
13:43:04  <TrueBrain> :(
13:44:17  <frosch123> i don't know whether changing the plural form in git is enough, or whether we need to delete and recreate the language in eints
13:44:26  <frosch123> i want to test that, but don't get so far :p
13:51:00  <TrueBrain> you can try on staging?
13:51:01  <TrueBrain> dunno
13:56:13  <frosch123> i'll try lunch instead
14:01:19  <TrueBrain> lunch at 1600? You are weird :P
14:01:50  * Zuu just started eating lunch too
14:01:57  <TrueBrain> equally weird :P
14:03:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8945: Fix: Apply master effect volume during mixing instead of sound start.
14:06:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #8945: Fix: Apply master effect volume during mixing instead of sound start.
14:10:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8945: Fix: Apply master effect volume during mixing instead of sound start.
14:35:37  <_dp_> is it a know thing that -b 40bpp-anim -v sdl crashes?
14:35:44  <_dp_> I feel like I've seen it somewhere
14:37:15  <spnda> does a Blitter encode a sprite each time it draws or just once?
14:37:16  <milek7> yes, you complained about it before ;p
14:38:07  <_dp_> lol
14:39:20  <TrueBrain> but yet no ticket about it .. ;)
14:42:10  <TrueBrain> we currently have slightly more player on Steam than yesterday .. new max incoming? :P
14:50:16  <spnda> TrueBrain: Yes, new max
14:56:53  <milek7>
14:57:02  <milek7> new (index) LinkGraphJob();
14:57:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #200: Change: Display input filename
14:57:21  <milek7> is this placement new? but index is not a pointer..
14:57:45  <frosch123> it's the overloaded new operator
14:58:01  <glx> it's using Pool IIRC
14:58:19  <milek7> ah, more magic
15:04:19  <_dp_> why is it still using 40bpp-anim if I have animations disabled?
15:05:04  <glx> because we don't change blitter on the fly, and animations can be enabled after openttd start
15:05:28  <_dp_> so the only way to choose 32bpp is via console or config?
15:07:21  <glx> yes it's the only way to not use default auto detected blitter
15:08:08  <frosch123> it will pick 32bpp if you disable opengl/hardware acceleration
15:08:30  <_dp_> well, yeah, but I don't want to disable opengl
15:08:43  <frosch123> when not using opengl, it will switch 8bpp, 32bpp and 32bpp-anim happily in-game
15:08:58  <_dp_> basically, I don't care about animation and want the fastest rendering
15:09:05  <_dp_> apparently I can't do that via gui
15:14:27  <milek7> with opengl, I doubt animation will make any difference
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15:21:31  <michi_cc> _dp_: If you want the fastes possible rendering and don't run 32bpp NewGRFs, change 'support8bpp' in your config to 'system', then you can get OpenGL with 8bpp blitter.
15:23:26  <peter1138> Hmm, trying to work out what's best for perceived loudness... ^2 or ^3
15:26:21  <milek7> neither
15:26:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Vindigo89 opened issue #8946: First song (nr. "00") in a music set/programme is always skipped
15:26:49  <peter1138> milek7, why?
15:27:30  <milek7> it should be logarithmic
15:27:53  <milek7>
15:28:07  <milek7> hm, they suggest x^4 as approximation
15:28:44  <peter1138> Quite.
15:28:53  <peter1138> I tried x^4 but it was pretty extreme.
15:29:19  <peter1138> They also mention different curves.
15:29:47  <peter1138> If it approximately matches the music volume slider, then I'm happy with that.
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15:32:05  <peter1138> I guess it's rather dependent on what my maximum volume is too.
15:32:11  <_dp_> michi_cc, is 8bpp still faster than 32 even with opengl?
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15:32:48  <peter1138> It's moving less bytes around, so...
15:32:53  <michi_cc> _dp_: Yes, as it has to move only a quarter of the bytes around.
15:33:32  <michi_cc> The only reason we disabled it by default was that "everybody" complained about worse transparency effect and non-antialiased text.
15:33:44  <peter1138> milek7, for me with ^4 it seems only the top 25% of our slider is usable.
15:35:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8946: First song (nr. "00") in a music set/programme is always skipped
15:39:09  <_dp_> michi_cc, yeah, 8bpp looks terrible
15:39:13  <_dp_> it's the last resort basically
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15:42:38  <peter1138> milek7, also don't forget it's meant to be a game volume slider, not a professional mixing desk volume slider :-)
15:43:16  <milek7> :)
15:43:16  <milek7> I also wonder how this interacts with OS volume
15:47:34  <peter1138> I think x^2 works best. With even x^3, setting the music volume low and then setting the effects volume to the same value makes the music audible and the effects non-existent.
15:49:08  <peter1138> Hmm, although actually that may just be because the music is louder than the effects anyway. Hmm :/
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16:01:29  <andythenorth> frosch123 so some sort of magical game-scaling factor?
16:01:42  <andythenorth> that adjusts run cost, buy cost, payment rate, cargo decay...
16:01:56  <andythenorth> that's what 'auto' does? o_O
16:03:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8946: First song (nr. "00") in a music set/programme is always skipped
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16:17:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Vindigo89 commented on issue #8946: First song (nr. "00") in a music set/programme is always skipped
16:17:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Vindigo89 closed issue #8946: First song (nr. "00") in a music set/programme is always skipped
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16:34:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BloodyIron opened issue #8947: [Feature Request] Key binds, changing all of them (also, WASD movement)
16:34:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] ss141309 opened issue #183: hi_IN Translator access request
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16:50:36  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: what happened to Manufacturing Supplies?
16:53:05  *** Artea has quit IRC
16:55:04  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ eliminated
16:55:18  <FLHerne> but why
16:55:30  <snail_UES_> beautiful. I’ll have to keep it for backward compatibility
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16:55:51  <snail_UES_> it’s not so great if industry sets keep adding and removing cargo types like that...
16:55:59  * FLHerne is increasingly tempted to make yet another FIRS port with different opinions, but there are enough unmaintained FIRS ports
16:56:03  <FLHerne> *fork
16:56:14  <FLHerne> I have words, I swear
16:58:26  <andythenorth> words
16:58:44  <andythenorth> FLHerne there are even maintained FIRS forks
16:58:51  <andythenorth> (I believe)
16:59:09  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: Steel Sheets. Should they appear as flat sheets, coils, or both?
16:59:32  <andythenorth> usually coil
16:59:51  <andythenorth> coils weren't invented until 1940s or so
17:00:04  <andythenorth> so if you want super accurate, thin flat sheet for early days
17:00:08  * andythenorth is not very accurate
17:02:00  <snail_UES_> got it
17:03:31  <peter1138> Grr, my files are in LF mode, and vs code is in LF mode, but randomly parts get updated with CRLF. Or something.
17:04:23  <andythenorth> uuf
17:11:20  <peter1138> And I tell VS Code to highlight line-endings, even that SAYS it's not using CRLF...
17:12:54  <peter1138> Okay so maybe I should try forcing CRLF and getting git to convert...
17:15:46  <peter1138> Also, only seems to be mixer.cpp, so far.
17:20:53  <peter1138> Worked it out.
17:21:18  <peter1138> It's CRLF already in the repo. I blame nielsm
17:21:44  <snail_UES_> phew. Just added STAL,STCB,CSTI,STST,STSE,STWR,STSH and ALUM to my short flat wagons :P
17:24:53  <TrueBrain> peter1138: I was about to say :D That file is already foobar :P
17:25:20  <peter1138> I thought there were hooks to prevent stuff like that. Guess not.
17:25:33  <TrueBrain> for subversion we had those, I think
17:25:51  <TrueBrain> but these days, the translation should be done by git transparently
17:26:12  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ coil cars? :)
17:26:14  <peter1138> It relies on the correct settings client-side though. And github doesn't show it.
17:26:15  <TrueBrain> but clearly, git failed here :)
17:26:37  <TrueBrain> and the editor shouldn't do these idiotic things either, tbfh :P
17:26:39  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: not in the narrow gauge set… they’re just simple flat cars with coils on top
17:26:53  <snail_UES_> I will have coil cars in the SG set
17:27:20  <snail_UES_> but if “someone” keeps creating new cargoes out of thin air, I’m never going to have the time to work on my SG set :D
17:27:24  <glx> I guess we could add EOL checks to commit checker
17:27:42  <TrueBrain> it is the only file in the whole repo that is wrong
17:28:09  <glx> yes, but to prevent error next time
17:28:24  <TrueBrain> personally, I would say: it went wrong once in 2018
17:28:31  <TrueBrain> maybe it is not really an issue :)
17:28:53  <glx> yeah probably during the switch to git
17:31:58  <TrueBrain> can't believe over 500 people took the effort to leave a review ..
17:32:28  <spnda> 638 even
17:32:53  <TrueBrain> the word "over" allows for higher numbers, ye
17:36:11  <peter1138> Would an editorconfig help?
17:40:24  <frosch123> iirc the commit-checker checks for \r
17:40:48  <frosch123> but it's entirely possible that the git diff filters out the \r before the checker sees them :p
17:43:52  * andythenorth considers CRLF cargo in FIRS
17:46:53  <peter1138> Maybe it was missed if the commit-checker wasn't set up from the start. Not sure any more.
17:53:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:53:03  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:54:11  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: what’s CRLF?
17:55:02  <_dp_> CuRsed Line Feed
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17:59:18  <peter1138> Hmm, possible tweaks... should zooming in/out a viewport affect already playing sounds.
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18:02:40  <peter1138> And also, should tile-based noises be capped.
18:02:59  <peter1138> With 640x480 screens, the viewport covers a lot les.
18:03:00  <peter1138> +s
18:03:27  <peter1138> At 2560x1440, wind noises are a bit constant...
18:04:09  <peter1138> "Let's increase the number of mixer channels!" sounded like a great idea, but...
18:04:32  <peter1138> Hmm, it's 8. Maybe we never did increase it.
18:04:51  <peter1138> tron, 15 years ago. Nice. We didn't.
18:06:19  <nielsm> add a flag/priority to "ambient" sounds and only play them when the zoom of the viewport would cause it to have at X tiles in width if it covered the full screen
18:06:41  * andythenorth adds sawmill sound to every FIRS industry
18:07:02  <nielsm> basically causing a relationship between screen resolution and zoom to control ambiernt noises
18:07:05  <peter1138> Our zoom volume scaling is also a bit whacky.
18:13:39  <peter1138> But it's noticable that zooming out stays loud for a while until the sounds stop playing.
18:14:03  <peter1138> Hardly a huge issue though
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18:23:07  <supermop_Home> yo
18:40:15  <_dp_> hm, apparently setting snow coverage high enough breaks farms :p
18:41:00  <_dp_> and "enough" is like 50% most of the time
18:42:15  <_dp_> oh, even default 40 is
18:42:53  <_dp_> and it doesn't give a warning
18:43:21  <andythenorth> so 1st and 2nd class pax cargos then?
18:43:32  <andythenorth> frosch123 left rather quickly when that was suggested :)
18:43:36  <_dp_> presumably because it still thinks you can bulldoze the sea
18:47:43  <frosch123> _dp_: farms spawn 2 heightlevels below snow line
18:47:50  <_dp_> oh, it looks like it actually succeeds in funding farms on the sea level sometimes so it thinks it's ok
18:48:02  <_dp_> yeah and default 40% coverage easily generates snow line 2
18:51:10  <_dp_> mapgen is cheating :p
18:59:22  <_dp_> huh?
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19:07:11  <TrueBrain> @calc 1128382/60/24/365
19:07:11  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 2.146845509893455
19:07:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail opened pull request #8948: Honor default soundfont for FluidSynth on Debian
19:13:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8948: Fix: Honor default soundfont for FluidSynth on Debian
19:16:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8947: [Feature Request] Key binds, changing all of them (also, WASD movement)
19:19:29  <FLHerne> _dp_: ...I thought that was 'fixed' after much acrimonious confusion
19:19:48  <_dp_> I think it went full circle :p
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19:21:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8947: [Feature Request] Key binds, changing all of them (also, WASD movement)
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19:24:17  <TrueBrain> "There are 694 clients, 481 IPv4 servers and 103 IPv6 servers in this list."
19:25:53  <FLHerne> what
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19:34:27  <glx> hmm there's a bug in DorpsGek auto reply "... is requesting access to language isocode." and of course link points to isocode too
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19:34:47  <glx> but it worked fine yesterday
19:35:13  <LordAro> glx: is that not correct?
19:35:31  <glx>
19:35:41  <glx> hmm seems he renamed the issue
19:35:58  <LordAro> oh
19:36:29  <LordAro> pretty sure that's on them
19:37:16  <FLHerne> Speaking vaguely of teams, have you considered giving Wuzzy2 rights to OpenSFX ("BaseSet Keepers"?) ?
19:37:28  <FLHerne> They seem to be doing a lot to it
19:38:34  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: This seems like the best proof that Steam actually got us new players and not just "switchers" :P
19:38:47  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: indeed
19:38:55  <LordAro> FLHerne: i think they're done doing stuff to it though
19:39:14  <michi_cc> Is there anything to see in general infrastructure load/bandwidth?
19:39:24  <peter1138> What was it before?
19:39:49  <michi_cc> Less clients that servers, the vast majority of time.
19:40:17  <peter1138> Hmm, 1.4.4 server running for 220227 years...
19:40:22  <peter1138> Not sure I believe that.
19:41:50  <glx> guess was used because we don't have hindi translation yet
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19:42:56  <Dwight> Is it that all good suppliers will gradually suffer irreversible productivity loss?
19:43:30  <glx> some primary industries only decrease yes
19:44:27  <FLHerne> LordAro: No more so than anyone else :p
19:44:35  <glx> oil wells are in this case, but offshore platforms will appear
19:45:43  <FLHerne> LordAro: this was 2 days ago and is still open
19:46:29  <FLHerne> Speaking for myself, being given commit access to NML fairly early (I'd only submitted a couple of patches at the time) was a motivating factor for spending more time on it
19:46:56  <FLHerne> It gives you a stake :p
19:49:32  <Dwight> hmm
19:49:48  <Dwight> what about good demands on large cities?
19:49:55  <FLHerne> Everything *but* oil wells should increase over time if transported% is high
19:50:08  <FLHerne> (assuming base industries, not grfs)
19:50:15  <Dwight> do those go away or will always be there as long as large building exists?
19:50:22  <Dwight> *buildings exist
19:50:29  <FLHerne> Always
19:50:35  <glx> as long as town is big enough it should not be an issue
19:50:41  <nielsm> towns generally grow as long as you have active transport in them
19:51:04  <nielsm> and it's mostly building in the center zones of large towns that accept goods
19:51:23  <nielsm> so a larger town has more buildings that accept goods
19:51:25  <FLHerne> You can use the info tool on buildings, it'll say something like '1/8 Goods'
19:51:34  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: giving rights doesn't help for getting an review, I am afraid :(
19:51:35  <FLHerne> You need 8/8 in the station catchment
19:51:40  <TrueBrain> it only helps if he was reviewing :(
19:51:59  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Sure, but it's a psychological thing :p
19:52:04  <glx> (but he likes to open management issues)
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19:53:52  <Dwight> when will those exhausted productions be gone and replaced by new ones?
19:55:59  <FLHerne> Which industries are you referring to?
19:56:05  <Dwight> food ones rn
19:56:08  <Dwight> the farms
19:56:12  <Dwight> I've exhausted one
19:56:20  <FLHerne> Oil wells are never replaced, they decline after 1970 or something until they're all gone
19:56:37  <FLHerne> Farms shouldn't decline in production if the transported % is reasonably high
19:56:48  <Dwight> well they did somehow
19:56:53  <FLHerne> about 70% or above IIRC
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19:57:13  <Dwight> oh nvm
19:57:14  <Dwight> lol
19:57:17  <FLHerne> You can be unlucky if you start serving one with low production just before it was going to shut down anyway
19:57:23  <Dwight> that's kinda high(
19:57:25  <andythenorth> so cargo payment multiplier on vehicles? :)
19:58:32  <TrueBrain> michi_cc:
19:58:36  <TrueBrain> still clearly more activity :P
19:58:53  <TrueBrain> (all HTTP traffic except for BaNaNaS downloads)
19:59:08  <Dwight> bruh
19:59:10  <TrueBrain> 9 500 errors served in that time :D
19:59:19  <Dwight> the production just went down by 50% each again
19:59:27  <FLHerne>
19:59:50  <FLHerne> (quick check: 'Smooth Economy' is the default now, right? I think the wiki is outdated there)
20:00:05  <TrueBrain> right, network traffic per client seems to be around 100 bytes/sec on a server
20:00:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: what caused the 500s?
20:00:15  <TrueBrain> the reddit server with 20 clients is only 500 bytes/sec in total, which is a bit surprising
20:00:54  <glx> highly depends on the number of client actions I guess
20:00:56  <TrueBrain> LordAro: haven't checked it out in detail, but most often this is when a server rolls over into a new one
20:01:03  <TrueBrain> and ALB was just too early/late to pick it up
20:01:22  <TrueBrain> glx: yup, but it seems that the reddit server has more idling people than some of the others I checked out :D
20:01:33  <TrueBrain> but, on average, 100 bytes/sec per connected client, it seems
20:01:45  <TrueBrain> which is an hilarious low number :P
20:01:58  <Dwight> will it go up again if I ensure demand?
20:02:00  <FLHerne> Dwight: so the thresholds are 60% for production to increase on average, and 80% for production to increase nearly always
20:02:06  <FLHerne> Yes
20:02:07  <Dwight> oh k
20:02:17  <FLHerne> (unless it closes first)
20:02:35  <FLHerne> Having a train always waiting is often a good idea
20:02:38  <glx> once closure is announced it can't be prevented
20:02:42  <FLHerne> (wait for full load)
20:02:45  <TrueBrain> hmm .. assuming my measurement is correct, if we would do our own relay network, the cost would be (and this is a rough estimate):
20:03:04  <TrueBrain> @calc 100 * 1000 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 30 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024 * 0.015
20:03:04  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 3.6209821701049805
20:03:16  <TrueBrain> 4 dollar per month (with 1000 clients, at a cost of 0.015 dollar per GB)
20:04:31  <_dp_> TrueBrain, have you checked citymania? I'd expect quite a bit more there xD
20:04:44  <FLHerne> That sounds eminently reasonable :p
20:04:50  <TrueBrain> pretty sure you can give better estimates of that
20:05:32  <glx> TrueBrain: oh you changed game ;)
20:05:42  <glx> (steam notifications)
20:05:48  <TrueBrain> :P
20:06:36  <TrueBrain> _dp_: nope, also 100 bytes per connected client
20:06:43  <TrueBrain> well, my estimate is when 1 user is in 1 server, so it is more
20:06:57  <TrueBrain> I forgot to calculate that into it, oops
20:06:58  <_dp_> hm, interesting
20:07:18  <TrueBrain> 5 players on average, seems a high-value
20:07:24  <_dp_> well, I guess it's pointless anyway since it's not going to be relaying citymania's xD
20:07:41  <TrueBrain> that would mean it is 20 dollar per month, I would guess
20:07:45  <TrueBrain> still very rough estimates
20:07:49  <_dp_> and vanilla can't quite spam commands as much thanks to a handicapped gs :p
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20:08:48  <TrueBrain> and that would be with a full cloak relay network (so nobody ever sees anyones real IP)
20:09:01  <TrueBrain> and by using AWS POP network
20:09:15  <TrueBrain> we could also relay it all in 1 place, which is a lot cheaper
20:09:23  <TrueBrain> but that would suck for many players not close to that region :D
20:09:52  <peter1138> Hmm, 8192 samples is quite noticable when changing volume :D
20:10:20  <TrueBrain> I expected this to be a lot more expensive
20:11:18  <peter1138> What's this for?
20:11:47  <TrueBrain> _dp_: it would be nice if you can check how much bandwidth your server has, just to cross-validate my finding
20:12:38  <_dp_> is there an easy way to check process bandwidth?
20:12:44  <TrueBrain> windows / linux?
20:12:47  <_dp_> linux ofc
20:12:56  <TrueBrain> no need to be offensive towards windows :P
20:13:01  <TrueBrain> the tool "iptraf" I find most useful
20:16:01  <milek7> if you have iptables rule it counts bytes also
20:16:05  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: The current number of multiplayers is not a representative example
20:16:19  <TrueBrain> that is why I doubled the current number
20:17:26  <FLHerne> Oh, I meant the opposite :p
20:17:32  <FLHerne> At least to date it's a worst- (best-?) case scenario in the last couple of days
20:17:37  <TrueBrain> I know :) But always overestimate, never underestimate :)
20:18:34  <peter1138> Then add in transfering a 4096x4096 map with tons of trees on it...
20:20:01  <TrueBrain> owh, AWS has a single line of text to indicate their table following is just the additional fee .. lol
20:20:06  <TrueBrain> okay, that is a bit more expensive
20:20:20  <TrueBrain> like a lot more :(
20:20:23  <TrueBrain> @calc 100 * 1000 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 30 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024 * 0.105
20:20:23  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 25.346875190734863
20:20:28  <TrueBrain> huh? Hmm
20:20:39  <TrueBrain> owh, yes, times 5
20:20:41  <TrueBrain> @calc 100 * 1000 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 30 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024 * 0.105 * 5
20:20:42  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 126.73437595367432
20:21:11  <TrueBrain> AWS pricing is so annoying to read correctly :P
20:21:57  <peter1138> Shame you can't just let Steam handle it ;(
20:22:10  <TrueBrain> I can, but someone told me he is a hard -2 on that :P
20:22:18  <peter1138> :(
20:23:01  <FLHerne> What happened to that 'free data' OVH instance you were planning to use for zBase?
20:23:06  <FLHerne> policy change?
20:23:10  <FLHerne> burned to the ground?
20:23:11  <TrueBrain> it is running for months now
20:23:22  <TrueBrain> assumptions are dangerous ;)
20:23:43  <milek7> STUN would work for most clients probably
20:23:49  <FLHerne> Why doesn't that help for this purpose, then?
20:24:09  <TrueBrain> those VPSes are cache mirrors
20:24:15  <TrueBrain> they only cache-proxy data, basically
20:24:19  <TrueBrain> to offload our bandwidth bill
20:24:41  <TrueBrain> one of the things you have to be careful with if you do relaying yourself, that you cannot relay someone from Singapore to France and back
20:24:45  <TrueBrain> his latency would be insane :P
20:24:52  <FLHerne> Well, not the specific instance, but the "buy one cheap-ish VPS and get unlimited data transfer"
20:24:56  <TrueBrain> so either we have to set up our own POP network, or we have to borrow a cloud
20:25:04  <FLHerne> Oh, I see, so you'd need lots
20:25:11  <TrueBrain> not lost, just enough
20:25:14  <TrueBrain> and that is a lot to maintain
20:25:17  <TrueBrain> which I am not going to :D
20:25:26  <TrueBrain> been there, done that, got the t-shirt :P
20:25:34  <TrueBrain> basically, the extra fee AWS charges is well worth it :D
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20:25:49  <FLHerne> That said, is OTTD multiplayer *really* that latency-sensitive?
20:25:59  <TrueBrain> (just as an example, if I work just over an hour I made more money than the AWS bill would be :P)
20:26:07  <peter1138> FLHerne, it's noticable, yes.
20:26:08  <FLHerne> The timeout is many seconds, no network is that slow :p
20:26:08  <TrueBrain> you have to think latencies of 300+ms
20:26:15  <milek7> I should finish my pubkey and connection encryption PR sometime..
20:26:16  <TrueBrain> you will notice that like crazy
20:26:20  <nielsm> btw regarding HTTP library for doing downloads and stuff, obviously curl is an option everywhere, but I wonder if it would make sense to use WinHTTP on windows to avoid an extra dependency
20:26:44  <FLHerne> peter1138: Only if you're building around someone else, and now everyone plays on 4k^2 maps so they don't have to :p
20:26:44  <TrueBrain> well, we won't notice it, as in the EU everything will be fine
20:26:47  <TrueBrain> US will .. somewhat notice it
20:26:52  <TrueBrain> but APAC ...
20:26:54  <TrueBrain> Australia?
20:26:56  <TrueBrain> they would hate us :P
20:27:01  <peter1138> FLHerne, you notice it with any building.
20:27:12  <TrueBrain> you click rail, over 300ms later it is placed
20:27:14  <TrueBrain> that is ... not fun :D
20:27:23  <peter1138> OpenTTD doesn't predict that something could happen.
20:27:43  <TrueBrain> we are not Factorio (yet?)
20:27:59  <peter1138> You'd need an arbitrary undo buffer :D
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20:28:40  <peter1138> -2 is a lot of votes against something. A single -1 would've been sufficient.
20:29:05  <TrueBrain> not used to gerrit patch voting system? :)
20:29:23  <peter1138> Never heard of it.
20:29:33  <TrueBrain> gerrit is a rather popular alternative git workflow
20:29:36  <TrueBrain> really good system, honestly
20:29:46  <TrueBrain> just totally different from GitLab / GitHub / BitBucket :P
20:29:55  <TrueBrain> anyway, -1 means: you did something wrong, but you can fix it
20:30:03  <TrueBrain> -2 means: I have a problem with the idea behind this, so no
20:30:44  <peter1138> So, I guess we can dash all those wishes for Workshop and Rich Presence support. NIce.
20:30:51  <TrueBrain> huh?
20:30:57  <TrueBrain> what made you jump to that conclusion?
20:31:01  <Dwight> feels like playing factorio and seeing a helpless mess of a railroad lmao
20:31:20  <Dwight> *belts
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20:31:44  <_dp_> I don't see how to group by process in iptraf
20:31:58  <TrueBrain> _dp_: just follow a single connection; should give enough info
20:32:05  <_dp_> and by connection I'm getting smth like 4000 bytes/sec which feels wrong
20:32:05  <TrueBrain> as all connections should about the same
20:32:14  <peter1138> Oh, I assumed the -2 was related to that.
20:32:22  <TrueBrain> peter1138: always good to ask first, what the -2 is about :D
20:32:30  <TrueBrain> but the -2 is for: allowing Steam clients to do something non-Steam cannot
20:32:42  <_dp_> but connections don't show map loading
20:32:53  <TrueBrain> _dp_: nah, but there is a day/night cycle anyway
20:33:04  <TrueBrain> so considering 1000 players online day/night is silly
20:33:21  <TrueBrain> so a map download should average out just fine
20:33:50  <peter1138> Damn, I accidentally just ate 2 portions of popcorn. As it 32g is a lot of popcorn.
20:33:53  <_dp_> well, day/night you can kinda estimate
20:34:06  <_dp_> but I've no idea how much is map traffict compared to the rest
20:34:07  <TrueBrain> _dp_: if you like, I would be interested in the bandwidth of a server over a full day
20:34:11  <TrueBrain> with the average players that were online
20:35:00  <_dp_> atm I don't quite have time to figure out how to do that unfortunately
20:35:08  <TrueBrain> peter1138: so basically, using the Steam relay network without having our own, is just .. many people will have a hard time with that, let me put it that way :)
20:35:28  <_dp_> well, I can discuss with da and mb just give you the access to the server if you're interested
20:35:36  <TrueBrain> _dp_: traffic is easy, just do "ifconfig" now and in 24hours :)
20:35:43  <TrueBrain> the amount of average players is the tricky part :P
20:35:58  <_dp_> but that includes website and god knows what else
20:36:07  <peter1138> michael blunck is involved?
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20:36:16  <_dp_> peter1138, mb
20:36:22  <TrueBrain> _dp_: fair enough :)
20:41:25  <TrueBrain> <- orange is, green is
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20:43:10  <TrueBrain> who would have thought our wiki would be popular? :P
20:43:58  <TrueBrain> CPU wise, it is not noticeable that much more traffic is going on .. so happy I added the strong caching for the wiki :D (a page is rendered and cached till any edit to it happens .. which is a very rare event)
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20:57:07  <milek7> I'm trying to exploit saveload code
20:57:08  <milek7> but eh, that might be too hard for my first attempt ;P
20:57:11  <TrueBrain> another round of: how many people have OpenTTD installed via Steam .. any takers?
20:58:36  <michi_cc> SteamSpy was in range last time, and it currently says 100000 to 200000, so 150000?
20:58:46  <TrueBrain> Lifetime free licenses (?) 	162,062
20:58:47  <TrueBrain> :D
20:58:58  <TrueBrain> SteamSpy said that 2 days ago too btw :P
20:59:12  <peter1138> Hmm, suddenly cold.
20:59:20  <peter1138> Also piano annoying me :(
21:02:45  <TrueBrain> Recent avg daily active users 	28,844
21:02:47  <TrueBrain> also a fun number
21:04:18  <TrueBrain> most players still played < 10 minutes, but the amount of players playing between 10-20 minutes is the same as those player more than 200 minutes
21:04:49  <TrueBrain> Average time played 	1 hour 24 minutes
21:04:52  <TrueBrain> it is going up :P
21:05:03  <TrueBrain> okay, that are all the stats I have michi_cc :) I think .. :P
21:05:23  <TrueBrain> no, wait, I also have store page data
21:05:42  <TrueBrain> 1 million impressions on the cover image of the Store page
21:06:07  <TrueBrain> 1500 people read the Q&A Livestream announcement
21:10:59  <TrueBrain> I understand why some games release Steam only a lot more now :)
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21:11:28  <michi_cc> And why Epic tries damn hard to get exclusive titles...
21:11:44  <TrueBrain> Yup ..
21:15:41  <andythenorth> this strikes again
21:15:47  <andythenorth> this is like the 3rd time in 2 days
21:15:47  <andythenorth>
21:15:59  <andythenorth> 'provide a solution andythenorth don't just point it out'
21:15:59  <andythenorth> :P
21:17:05  <supermop_Home> hardcode base vehicles to be refitable?
21:17:24  <andythenorth> I've been told - a long time ago - that won't be done and can't be done
21:17:30  <andythenorth> purity + savegame compat.
21:17:30  <supermop_Home> I think there should also be at least 1 hardcoded tram
21:17:38  <andythenorth> but what's past is past
21:17:45  <andythenorth> many things were said to not be possible
21:17:55  <supermop_Home> i mean i also believe that base game should be base game
21:18:07  <supermop_Home> but language evolves as it were
21:18:34  <supermop_Home> at some point might make sense to give in rather than be pedantic
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21:18:53  <supermop_Home> fingertips still slightly numb
21:19:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on issue #8939: Object selection window button doesn't appear lowered after clicking on it
21:21:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8944: Fix #8935: [OSX] Crash when clicking 'Save' due to wrongly-threaded OS call.
21:21:51  <andythenorth> michi_cc ^
21:21:57  <andythenorth> (fixed)
21:22:36  <michi_cc> I guess 1.11.1 should not wait too long then.
21:24:25  <andythenorth> :)
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21:27:35  <supermop_Home> hi snail_UES_
21:28:25  <snail_UES_> supermop_Home: hey
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21:30:49  <supermop_Home> fingertips are a little numb here
21:31:06  <supermop_Home> i got moderna
21:31:22  <supermop_Home> otherwise not too bad
21:31:25  <snail_UES_> I’m happy for you :)
21:31:44  <snail_UES_> yeah, there are always side effects. I felt dizzy and feverish the whole day after my shot
21:31:51  <snail_UES_> when did you have yours? earlier today?
21:32:29  <supermop_Home> yeah noon today
21:32:36  <supermop_Home> 2nd dose 5/2
21:33:00  <snail_UES_> wow, almost one month from now
21:33:16  <snail_UES_> but it’s good they already gave you the next appointment
21:33:23  <supermop_Home> yeah moderna is 28 days compared to 21 for pfizer
21:33:46  <supermop_Home> they actually wouldn't let you leave the site without setting it up
21:34:10  <snail_UES_> like, they’d ask you to sit down for like 15 mins?
21:34:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
21:34:41  <supermop_Home> yeah
21:35:06  <supermop_Home> and then they came around with an ipad to make the 2nd dose appt
21:35:12  <andythenorth> hmm time to start FIRS 5?
21:35:33  <supermop_Home> or FIRS 6
21:35:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
21:35:38  * _dp_ already included mac fix in cmclient :p
21:36:08  <_dp_> don't ask me where is cmclient... xD
21:36:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
21:37:40  <andythenorth> supermop_Home I already started FIRS 6
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21:40:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] perezdidac commented on pull request #43: Add: pass upload date to OpenTTD client
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21:44:25  <andythenorth> FIRS 99?
21:49:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8941: Fix: fix nullptr deletion in DeleteWindowById
21:52:31  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: my set now officially supports FIRS 4. Time for you to release FIRS 5 :p
21:55:09  <andythenorth> \o/
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22:21:42  <michi_cc> _dp_: I'm just waiting for PR approval now for macOS.
22:22:41  <_dp_> well, yeah, but then you need 1.11.1
22:23:03  <_dp_> and cmclient is already out
22:23:13  <_dp_> since like 10 mins ago xD
22:24:10  <_dp_> though I guess it wouldn't take long for 1.11.1 all things considered xD
22:42:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
22:43:18  <nielsm> yep I think we're looking at a relatively fast 1.11.1 this year
22:43:27  <nielsm> so many ones
22:44:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wlfbck opened issue #8949: Unable to abandon/quit
22:44:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8949: Unable to abandon/quit
22:47:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wlfbck commented on issue #8949: Unable to abandon/quit
22:50:16  <nielsm> uh I'm tempted to post this reply, but it's probably too passive-aggressive
22:50:19  <nielsm> > Actually that's how the UI was designed in Transport Tycoon in 1994, imitating how Apple Macintosh menu bar (mouse-controlled) functioned since 1984.
22:51:05  <nielsm> or
22:51:36  <nielsm> > Out of tens of thousands of players you are the first I see to question this interface.
22:51:45  <nielsm> I probably should just go to bed
22:55:54  <_dp_> by far not the first one
22:56:10  <_dp_> a lot of players don't get the submenus
22:56:24  <_dp_> mb showing them on hover would help
22:57:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8949: Unable to abandon/quit
22:59:03  <nielsm> maybe somehow show a semi-transparent version of the menu on hover, yes, indicating that there is a menu but you need to do something more to use it
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23:05:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wlfbck commented on issue #8949: Unable to abandon/quit
23:11:44  <_dp_> nielsm, well, as you can clearly see a tooltip indicating there is more didn't help him in the slightest :p
23:13:31  <_dp_> you'll just get "impossible to click sub-items" report or smth xD
23:17:04  <_dp_> another solution would be to make it two-click and add an option to get "smart" choice back.
23:21:49  <nielsm> doubleclick for "smart" choice (two slow clicks would open then close the dropdown)
23:22:16  <_dp_> ctrl-click xDD
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23:38:25  <Rainy> hey, I've been really dumb and got all my trains stuck in a junction, I want to find a way to 'teleport' all trains to a depot so I can fix everything I messed up, currently using version 1.10.3-2
23:38:56  *** Guest565 has quit IRC
23:42:30  <_dp_> there is no teleport, you'll have to carefully sort them out manually
23:42:51  <_dp_> or just click ignore and let them crash xd
23:43:06  <Rainy> I was about to say thats my plan B :p
23:43:41  <Rainy> thanks
23:44:07  <_dp_> it's kind of the same plan tbh
23:44:19  <_dp_> you do A until you mess up and it turns into B xD
23:48:59  *** nielsm has quit IRC
23:56:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8944: Fix #8935: [OSX] Crash when clicking 'Save' due to wrongly-threaded OS call.

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