Log for #openttd on 8th April 2021:
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00:07:05  <TheArcaneBrony> nvm thats in the console
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00:33:14  <riis> first time using irc :)
00:33:59  <riis> i saw a post on the subreddit where some dude was printing out their logs to a txt file, are there any hidden ways to only print data i want???
01:03:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Adsadafafas opened issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup
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01:44:16  <TheArcaneBrony> with the entire map too big thing
01:44:26  <TheArcaneBrony> what if openttd implemented some chunk thing?
01:57:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine opened issue #8970: Windows
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04:00:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
04:08:30  <TheArcaneBrony>
04:08:37  <TheArcaneBrony> is it jsut me or is this font extremely small?
04:21:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8971: "Save Game" text input can visibly appear truncated when font size increases
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05:10:15  <Elouin> Hi, is there a way to slow down game progression speed? I would like to have games running that run a bit slower and last a week or so.
05:12:07  <riis> i think jgrs patch pack has something like that, may be mistaken as i dont use it
05:21:31  <didac> I agree that the music stuff doesn´t seem proportiona to interface size
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05:39:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
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05:50:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
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06:28:35  <andythenorth> so did we stay up too late?
06:34:18  * andythenorth interprets silences as 'yes'
06:34:42  <nielsm> I think I went to bed at an acceptable time, but did not sleep well
06:34:54  <nielsm> woke up too early and don't feel rested
07:01:18  * andythenorth needs more clothes, cold here
07:02:05  <nielsm>  <-- can we just close this as "yes stop changing GUI sizes while other windows are open and expect everything to work"
07:02:28  <nielsm> or should we start just closing all open windows when you change one of those?
07:03:15  <nielsm> (probably special casing the options window, main menu, toolbar, statusbar, and main game viewport)
07:03:36  <andythenorth> well if we had a way to remember windows and reopen them...
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07:08:09  <andythenorth> hmm fingers too cold to type :)
07:08:14  <andythenorth> it's only April, so wtf :)
07:08:38  <nielsm> could also add it to known-bugs.txt
07:10:26  <andythenorth> plausible
07:10:39  <andythenorth> along with "FIRS breaks default vehicles" :)
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07:18:51  <LordAro> nielsm: true, but redrawing the text string after resizing the window should be feasible...
07:23:51  <nielsm> more problematic, it seems possibly a crash can occur when you change font size due to something with sprite cache
07:29:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
07:34:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup
07:36:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup
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07:38:07  <canadaj> I am running a Linux server using the -c option to specify a config file. Every time I modify the config and restart the service (systemd), it overwrites my changes. How do I get my server to accept a new config?
07:38:10  <TrueBrain> I see andythenorth learnt to be passive agressive :D
07:38:29  <andythenorth> it's just aggressive no?
07:38:30  <andythenorth> :P
07:38:31  <nielsm> canadaj: there is an -x option that prevents the game from writing back tot he config
07:39:06  * andythenorth always has to look up what 'passive aggressive' actually means
07:39:50  <LordAro> i'm wondering if these crashes are down to a broken opengl setup
07:40:30  <TrueBrain> it does look like bootstrap doesn't validate if there is a valid video driver :P
07:40:57  <TrueBrain> but that only explains 1 of the 2
07:41:08  <canadaj> @neilsm absolutely blessed thank you
07:41:44  <peter1138> Gah, cold fingers
07:42:11  <peter1138> nielsm, i do actually have a patch for scaling...
07:42:42  <andythenorth> why are my fingers cold though
07:42:44  <andythenorth> heating is on
07:42:49  <andythenorth> wearing many layers of clothers
07:42:57  <peter1138> Poor circulation
07:42:58  <andythenorth> clothers !  warmer than clothes
07:43:05  <TrueBrain> more sleep also helps
07:43:33  <andythenorth> screw sleep, it's for dead people
07:43:47  <TrueBrain> psst, dead people don't "sleep"
07:43:52  <andythenorth> I will live life to the fullest by....hitting refresh on YouTube
07:43:57  <andythenorth> until late at night
07:44:08  <TrueBrain> and regretting that in the morning?
07:44:26  <TrueBrain> why are you using a proprietary platform to watch videos?
07:44:27  <TrueBrain> tssk
07:44:45  <andythenorth> I have no words
07:44:49  <peter1138> Must ignore messages on Teams...
07:44:57  <andythenorth> Must ignore Teams
07:45:42  <andythenorth> My lovely wife, light of my life, late into the night: "Why do they keep messaging me so late?  [replies with message]"
07:46:32  <peter1138> apparently "fill in this field if different from field above" is too confusing
07:46:39  <andythenorth> this was extremely unexpected
07:46:47  <peter1138> I didn't ignore Teams :(
07:48:35  <peter1138> How does that even... they magically pop out... :/
07:48:55  <nielsm> the actual problem is that Windows::ReInit() does not actually re-init the window
07:49:08  <nielsm> it kind of assumes most things don't need to change size or position
07:49:24  <peter1138> Like I say, I have a patch :p
07:49:31  <nielsm> and the class is called Window
07:50:02  <nielsm> does it also fix that the landscape selection buttons on the main menu look bad after changing GUI scale?
07:50:14  <peter1138> Yes
07:50:24  <nielsm> well what are you waiting for then
07:50:45  <peter1138> Still working on it.
07:50:51  <TrueBrain> name any issue, and peter1138 has a patch for it .. patches he has plenty :D
07:51:04  <peter1138> This one is recent though :)
07:57:32  <andythenorth> I had a patch once
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07:59:48  <peter1138> Highly advanced patch, streaming on Discord
08:00:08  <peter1138> Oh, 9am. Never mind.
08:01:57  <TrueBrain> you now expect nielsm to look on your Discord stream to type over your patch? :P
08:01:59  <TrueBrain> :D
08:02:20  <peter1138> Collaborative development
08:02:25  <TrueBrain> wuth?! NO!
08:02:27  <TrueBrain> we don't do that here peter1138
08:02:29  <TrueBrain> :P
08:02:37  <TrueBrain> sorry, it is one of these days
08:02:50  <TrueBrain> I started with a passive aggressive forums post of andythenorth .. I cannot shake that feeling now :)
08:03:19  <andythenorth> I started with an LC post about Horse
08:03:24  <peter1138> Actually there is some collaborative plugin for VS Code. I wonder what it actually does.
08:03:32  <andythenorth> 'probably fine, everyone misunderstands each other'
08:03:33  <peter1138> forums post eh?
08:03:36  <peter1138> Dare I look?
08:03:46  <andythenorth> it's a nothing
08:03:47  <TrueBrain> peter1138: they work really well, just ... writing code with someone else has always been painful to me :P
08:03:52  <andythenorth> this is fun :)
08:04:00  <TrueBrain> had to train a lot of people with pair programming
08:04:01  <andythenorth> if anyone knows the answer, pls send me email
08:04:02  <TrueBrain> which is fine on its own
08:04:11  <TrueBrain> but ... you get bored REAL quick, looking at someone else typing :P
08:04:30  <peter1138> Is that what it actually is? Sheesh
08:04:43  <andythenorth> my attention span would never survive pair programming, it needs people who aren't me
08:05:17  <peter1138> What open streaming platforms are there, anyway?
08:05:38  <andythenorth> THERE ARE MANY VERY POPULAR ONES
08:05:55  <LordAro> i only know of jitsi, but that's a conferencing/video call thing, not streaming
08:06:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I replied!
08:06:04  <LordAro> and doesn't scale well
08:06:14  <andythenorth> TrueBrain nooooooo :(
08:06:20  <peter1138> Yes, that's video calling.
08:06:49  <peter1138> And sucks all the power out of my 3.2 GHz Quad Core Xeon handling 2 streams...
08:07:16  <peter1138> (I guess it may have been transcoding but I don't know why)
08:07:52  <andythenorth> oof these freedom + privacy people
08:08:11  <andythenorth> I mean...I don't like the modern web business model much
08:08:25  <andythenorth> but don't they know...the simulation we're living in already tracks everything about us anyway
08:08:45  <andythenorth> I suppose they're trying to stay ahead of the other simulated characters
08:08:49  <peter1138> nielsm, anyway, may patch has unintentional side effects that, er, actually improve things imho, but may not be expected. And other bits still don't work right.
08:09:49  <peter1138> (Improves things outside the scope of changing scale)
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08:10:48  <andythenorth> also this is one of the best short stories I've read ever ever
08:16:59  <TrueBrain> the network code has Close and CloseConnection .. and poorly documented how they differ
08:17:04  <TrueBrain> fun :D
08:18:06  <TrueBrain> Close calls CloseConnection, but Close is protected and CloseConnection is public
08:18:08  <TrueBrain> now I am really confused :P
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08:29:37  <Timberwolf> peter1138: One of the AIs in my game decided to convert its narrow gauge rails to 4th rail, happily stranding all its trains.
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08:34:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] adamcirillo commented on issue #8963: Black Bars during gameplay
08:38:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Vagooba opened issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request
08:45:31  <peter1138> Vsync = black bars... very strange.
08:46:04  <FLHerne> They're not even regular, across scan-lines or anything...
08:46:26  <FLHerne> Nor even solid black
08:46:32  <peter1138> Timberwolf, I don't remember if there's anything in the railtype spec or AI APIs for helping to choose which to use
08:48:06  <Timberwolf> A lot of the AIs seem to bias heavily to buying the cheapest engine, which gives weird results if you have a set full of jokers and strange options.
08:48:47  <Timberwolf> I've noticed a few figure out that giant horse stacks are the way forward at the start of the game.
08:49:22  <FLHerne> ISTR that UKRS2 removed the brake-van restriction for AI players
08:49:57  <FLHerne> otherwise they just couldn't work without special code
08:49:58  <Timberwolf> Yes, and then CivilAI builds them :)
08:50:40  <andythenorth> "CivilAI the best AI"
08:50:46  <andythenorth> only one I use anyway
08:50:47  <Timberwolf> RailwAI is really impressive, bar a couple of crashes in later play.
08:50:51  <andythenorth> not sure that means 'best'
08:51:14  <Timberwolf> I particularly like the way it petulantly reroutes its roads and builds bridges whenever you create a level crossing.
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08:52:33  * andythenorth tries RailwAI
08:53:05  <LordAro> trAIns has always been the most technically impressive, to me
08:53:05  <andythenorth> oh it's building a salt line
08:53:09  <LordAro> but it is real slow
08:53:13  <andythenorth> wonder how it knows where to start in Steeltown
08:53:19  <andythenorth> Salt is one of the starting chains
08:53:44  <andythenorth> it's chosen narrow gauge
08:53:56  <andythenorth> oh it builds alternate wagons, not just cloning trains blindly
08:56:09  <andythenorth> I like AIs, they don't offer unsolicited feedback on my grfs :)
08:56:22  <Timberwolf> I haven't played trAINs in a while, I remember it looking promising in the early versions.
08:56:32  <Timberwolf> That's the one which tries to network like a human player, isn't it?
08:57:17  <LordAro> yeah
08:57:24  <LordAro> some guy's masters project
08:57:25  <andythenorth> RailwAI likes boats
08:58:26  <andythenorth> hmm doesn't understand freight engines vs. express
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08:59:27  <andythenorth> this is fun
08:59:34  <andythenorth> AI has no concept of mainlines
08:59:48  <andythenorth> so it's replicating routes for an industry with 2 output cargos
09:00:25  <peter1138> That's how some people play
09:00:35  <andythenorth> very wise
09:00:39  <andythenorth> the best way
09:01:09  <andythenorth> supplies it doesn't understand, maybe I should deliver some for it
09:03:02  <andythenorth> it has won Train Whack! though :)
09:03:08  <andythenorth> excellent use of engines there
09:04:37  <andythenorth> this is also excellent, train choices for same route
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09:04:47  <andythenorth> AI likes pointy trains?
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09:06:29  <TrueBrain> I have another idea for NAT punching .. make a raw socket and send raw TCP packets ourselves, so we can avoid sending the FIN and RST :P
09:06:36  <TrueBrain> that might just be a bit .... too much :D
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09:08:32  <peter1138> user-space TCP eh?
09:08:49  <TrueBrain> won't be the first time I do that :D
09:08:52  <peter1138> Might as well just switch to UDP :-)
09:08:56  <TrueBrain> but yes, that
09:09:07  <TrueBrain> we really should switch to UDP honestly
09:09:12  <nielsm> I don't think most OS will allow that either, without being root/admin
09:09:15  <TrueBrain> makes a lot of things a lot easier
09:09:33  <TrueBrain> nielsm: you might be surprised how much you can do (on Linux anyway) from userspace
09:09:37  <LordAro> ew
09:09:38  <TrueBrain> there are some limits
09:09:43  <peter1138> Packet loss and out of order packets is not something the protocol would like, I think.
09:09:52  <TrueBrain> but really: UDP :)
09:10:12  <TrueBrain> well, there is this ValveSoftware network library
09:10:19  <TrueBrain> that uses UDP with a TCP-like behaviour
09:10:29  <TrueBrain> reordering, fragmentation, handles it all
09:10:33  <peter1138> Is it GPL?
09:10:41  <nielsm> MIT I think
09:10:50  <TrueBrain> BSD-3
09:10:54  <peter1138> GPL-compatible, rather.
09:10:54  <TrueBrain> so we can include it
09:10:57  <TrueBrain>
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09:11:23  <FLHerne> But then you're Making The Game Dependent On Steam or something :-/
09:11:52  <TrueBrain> please don't tell those people zstd is created by Facebook
09:11:57  <TrueBrain> it might be stealing our data (?!?!?!)
09:12:12  <andythenorth> it what now?
09:12:16  <andythenorth> also where is the forum reply
09:12:21  * andythenorth back to making trains
09:12:26  <FLHerne> Between that and GitHub/MS, OpenTTD is enslaved to all of the evil megacorps
09:12:37  <TrueBrain> I know right!!
09:12:43  <TrueBrain> and we also use AWS
09:12:45  <TrueBrain> omg
09:12:46  <TrueBrain> sellouts
09:12:59  <TrueBrain> where does Google impact us .. euuh  ...
09:13:06  <TrueBrain> there has to be a link
09:13:07  <TrueBrain> let me find it :D
09:13:18  <FLHerne> Does the forum still have Google ads?
09:13:20  <peter1138> proprietory platforms :(
09:14:04  <andythenorth> we tried to use google for wiki search
09:14:04  <TrueBrain> its funny how some people and organizations expect that everything should be free (as defined by FSF)
09:14:15  <TrueBrain> like how realistic is that in a world where you have to pay for your groceries
09:14:20  <andythenorth> or 'unrealistic lunatics'
09:14:22  <andythenorth> as I call them
09:14:46  <TrueBrain> I am sure I also once had the illusion that would be possible
09:15:02  <TrueBrain> then I grew up :P
09:15:05  <andythenorth> it's a view
09:15:19  <LordAro> it's cute
09:15:26  <LordAro> being that idealistic/optimistic about the world
09:15:36  <FLHerne> Well, people used to have that opinion of software
09:15:38  <andythenorth> a tycoon game about cut-throat capitalism should be free
09:15:43  <andythenorth> I guess that's fine
09:15:46  <TrueBrain> LordAro: cute is the right word, yes :)
09:15:58  <andythenorth> I mean I play Warcraft 1, but I don't believe in slaughtering villages
09:17:36  <TrueBrain> anyway, back to writing lobby code
09:19:51  * andythenorth back to trains
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09:34:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
09:40:48  <peter1138> How slow is slow?
09:41:34  <andythenorth> this one goes to 11
09:41:34  <peter1138> I'm down to 6.5 fps and don't appear to have this.
09:43:49  <andythenorth> oh it has now scrapped that train, disappointing
09:45:07  <nielsm> peter1138: I'm not sure, but it has to do with timing I think, and a low framerate only makes it more likely to hit the right timing
09:45:41  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Are they relatively cheap in respect to tractive effort and horsepower?
09:45:52  <andythenorth> probably yes
09:46:01  <nielsm> I can reproduce it just by starting 1.11.0, place my fingers on home row, and mash keys as fast as I can
09:46:05  <Timberwolf> I think RailwAI just looks for the most cost-effective way to achieve a certain TE and HP target for a given speed.
09:46:32  <andythenorth> hmm the maths would say they're not great for HP and TE over cost
09:46:41  <andythenorth> oh they're cheap to buy
09:46:50  <andythenorth> very cheap
09:47:37  <TrueBrain> nielsm: you might want to add what OS etc in your ticket btw; I assume Win10, but that is an assumption :D
09:47:48  <TrueBrain> and you say "Win32 video driver", do you mean win32 or win32-opengl ?
09:47:57  <andythenorth> oh the silent 1.11 crash on mac :)
09:48:00  <andythenorth> 'surprise'
09:48:07  <andythenorth> well that will be fixed soon eh
09:48:30  <TrueBrain> Win10 + Steam OpenTTD + win32-opengl works fine for me at least, no matter how hard I type :P
09:49:50  <TrueBrain> win32, still fine
09:50:57  <nielsm> also reproducing with win32 non-opengl
09:52:12  <glx> TrueBrain: C:\Users\Loïc> vcpkg search gamenetworkingsocket
09:52:13  <glx> gamenetworkingsoc... 2020-09-02       GameNetworkingSockets is a basic transport layer for games.
09:52:26  <TrueBrain> glx: nice :D
09:54:15  <glx> same here, can't reproduce duplicate input, even at 3fps
09:55:43  <LordAro> nielsm: something strange with the polling rate of your keyboard, perhaps?
09:56:20  <nielsm> ohhh I figured it out
09:56:25  <nielsm> it's the Japanese IME
09:56:40  <LordAro> lolwut
09:56:40  <nielsm> if I change to a different input it doesn't happen
09:57:04  <nielsm> other programs don't get this misinput from the IME either though
09:58:24  <LordAro> #7810 & #8138 appear in searches for IME
09:58:34  <LordAro> plausibly related?
09:58:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
09:59:38  <nielsm> 8138 could be, but 7810 seems to be about non-Windows platforms
09:59:52  <nielsm> the keyboard input is handled in video driver so it's probably a problem specific to win32_v
10:00:06  <LordAro> mm
10:10:01  <peter1138> Bread roll out of freezer is... not edible.
10:10:18  <peter1138> I'm on Windows too.
10:10:22  <glx> and very cold ;)
10:10:27  <TrueBrain> freshly baked bread with the right mixture of ingredients on the other hand ..
10:10:36  <TrueBrain> took a while to get the mixture right .. lot of wasted bread :P
10:11:00  <peter1138> glx, actually it wasn't that cold, which is telling. I think it means not a lot of water content left in it...
10:11:15  <peter1138> TrueBrain, okay, I'll be around in a moment.
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10:11:25  <TrueBrain> peter1138: would be scary if you really did :P
10:11:26  <peter1138> Ah shit, foiled by Brexit and pandemic :(
10:11:35  <TrueBrain> :D
10:11:41  <TrueBrain> both are an equally big problem, yes :P
10:11:46  <TrueBrain> which is kinda ironic
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10:25:13  <peter1138> Hmm, Karoo 2 looks nice but damn, expensive.
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10:26:40  <peter1138> Although I'm not sure running on Android is ideal for a specialized device.
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10:36:22  <Timberwolf> Some of the non-Android systems have the same kind of multitasking issues.
10:37:20  <Timberwolf> My car gets very laggy in responding to the menu controller if I plug a USB drive with a lot of music files into the centre console.
10:37:32  * andythenorth reading steam
10:37:41  <andythenorth> lol the cursor key behaviour in newgrf window :)
10:38:11  <andythenorth> 'yes you can scroll the list on up/down cursors'
10:38:21  <andythenorth> 'but you probably also wanted to move the map at the same time, right?'
10:38:52  <Timberwolf> I get that with station filters.
10:39:05  <Timberwolf> I have typed 'aaaaaaaa' or 'rrrrrr' into the station search many a time.
10:40:16  <andythenorth> hmm what am I supposed to be doing?
10:40:20  <andythenorth> something about pax coaches
10:40:25  * andythenorth lost all sense of purpose
10:53:02  <peter1138> Okay, should I order some lunch via Just-Eat?
10:53:27  <peter1138> Apparently I can order from Greggs.
10:54:17  <peter1138> But if I'm going to order, I might as well order from the local brewery, am I right?
10:54:22  <peter1138> Liquid lunches...
10:54:27  <andythenorth> delivered Greggs
10:54:30  <andythenorth> peak civilisation
10:54:56  <peter1138> I don't like Greggs at the best of times, let alone soggy greasy cold deliveries.
10:55:36  <peter1138> Footlong Subway?
10:56:00  <reldred> I've had dinner already but I'm still hungry
10:56:00  <peter1138> I have some part-baked petite-pains, I think that should suffice :)
11:00:17  <peter1138> Dessert time?
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11:04:32  <reldred> Mmmm. Desserts.
11:04:39  <reldred> Cheeseburger is a dessert?
11:06:21  <LordAro> there's probably enough sugar in it
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11:13:45  <peter1138> Okay, I found some bacon to go with my petit pains.
11:13:54  <andythenorth> profit
11:13:55  <andythenorth> cashback
11:14:01  <peter1138> There is one egg as well, but as it's BBE early March, I might give that a miss.
11:15:04  <peter1138> I'd completely forgotten the days of requesting cashback from shops.
11:26:50  <andythenorth> eggs float if they've gone wrong
11:27:00  <andythenorth> otherwise fine
11:27:27  <TrueBrain> or hatch a chicken
11:27:31  <TrueBrain> then it went wrong too
11:27:36  <andythenorth> hmm PassengerRailcarTrailerCarConsist and PassengerRailbusTrailerCarConsist
11:27:43  <andythenorth> that's not going to catch me out in future
11:27:48  <andythenorth> they are visually same length names
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11:43:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
11:45:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
11:49:24  <peter1138> andythenorth, I know, but depending on what you're doing with it a fresh egg can be preferable.
11:49:36  <andythenorth> fair
11:50:10  <peter1138> Worst part is when you think an egg is okay, test it by the floating method, and then it's gone off anyway. Into the bowl of ingredients you've already mixed up.
11:50:34  <peter1138> Only had that happen once, since then I always crack it into a separate jug first.
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11:51:16  <peter1138> I was doing egg-fried-rice. Has to bin all the rice, and the bacon bits and stuff that was in it. And it was the last rice I had.
11:52:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
11:52:44  <Xaroth> peter1138: the uncle roger style egg fry rice?
12:18:56  <andythenorth> ha I need to remember to close openttd train windows when the game is paused and in background
12:19:05  <andythenorth> uses 100% of one core
12:20:50  <andythenorth> or it's coincidence
12:32:18  <peter1138> I don't have an Uncle Roger, so...
12:32:43  <peter1138> 100% while paused seems like you're doing something wrong.
12:34:18  <andythenorth> I _think_ it causes the mac to have keep drawing the window
12:34:30  <andythenorth> openttd is running at about 1.5% of a core
12:34:33  <peter1138> Even a 1024x1024 map is too big, why do people ever want to play on 4069x4069. "Bigger is better"?
12:34:46  <andythenorth> but if I open some game windows (trains), mac windowserver process spikes to 100% of a core
12:35:30  <Timberwolf> Originally I thought it was to play with very sparse maps (extreme low density) or interesting geography like islands or impenetrable mountain ranges.
12:35:48  <peter1138> If the game is paused then there's no reason it'll be trying to redraw by itself.
12:36:10  <Timberwolf> But my impression is I'm the outlier there, and most people seem to generate their 4096*4096 maps at fairly standard density and terrain settings.
12:36:10  <peter1138> I was going for sparse with this 1024x1024 map, but it's still got too much in it.
12:36:18  <peter1138> Yeah
12:36:21  <andythenorth> this paused effect is actually reproducible, I hoped I was hallucinating
12:36:39  <andythenorth> or that it was just Chrome doing whatever Chrome does to use all my cores to render a simple webpage
12:37:32  <peter1138> Another problem with 1024x1024 sparse maps and using all-Timberwolf sets, there's no ships ;(
12:37:38  <andythenorth> there are no dirty blocks drawn, can't be OpenTTD
12:37:41  <andythenorth> let's blame Chrome
12:38:03  <peter1138> Yes. Let's.
12:38:22  <andythenorth> remember when Chrome was good?
12:38:28  <Timberwolf> Heh. I do wonder whether I should do boats.
12:38:31  <peter1138> When it first arrived, yes.
12:38:41  <andythenorth> please do boats
12:38:51  <andythenorth> if anything demands voxels, it's boats
12:38:51  <Timberwolf> It feels like the kind of thankless drudgery I'd enjoy.
12:38:57  <andythenorth> they're so frigging hard to do in pixels
12:39:16  <andythenorth> I have spent so long drawing bow and stern shapes :(
12:39:29  <peter1138> Just take someone else's GPL ships, do a little tweak and say it's yours.
12:39:52  <andythenorth> voxel-ise Unsinkable Sam
12:40:03  <peter1138> So the thing with 2x gui is that 2x sprites != 2x gui.
12:40:14  <andythenorth> or you could have 3 goes at figuring out capacity and speed and crap like I did :P
12:40:18  <peter1138> Proportions become all wonky.
12:40:26  <peter1138> Voxels!
12:40:31  <peter1138> What was it? Cubicles?
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12:40:37  <Timberwolf> I haven't tried Sam yet, what did you change from SQUID?
12:40:42  <andythenorth> threw it all away
12:40:44  <Timberwolf> (capacity and speed wise)
12:40:48  <supermop_Home_> 4 letters
12:40:58  <andythenorth> can't remember but Squid is just weird
12:41:10  <andythenorth> it fell in the "Pikka is bored of maximalism, let's try minimalism" hole
12:41:45  <Timberwolf> I like Squid, it makes ships unexpectedly powerful.
12:42:10  <andythenorth> Sam treats ships like Horse wagons
12:42:18  <andythenorth> gives a full set of sizes and types
12:42:23  <andythenorth> buy menu can go do one :P
12:42:53  <Timberwolf> First discovered this playing a multiplayer game with a relative newbie, who went "I'll build some ships, they look simple" and ended up one of the most profitable companies on the server.
12:43:26  <andythenorth> oh I standardised all the hulls as well, and composited the deck/hold stuff onto them
12:43:28  <andythenorth>
12:43:44  <andythenorth> there are more than those 5, but those are the ones with all angles drawn
12:44:55  <andythenorth> but voxel hull shapes!
12:45:34  <Timberwolf> They're just as annoying to do as pixels, although you do have options to scale and composite.
12:46:08  <andythenorth> no angles though?  just one model?
12:46:13  <Timberwolf> Yes, that helps.
12:46:19  <Timberwolf> You only have to get it right once.
12:46:36  <peter1138> Hmm, that explains a few things, TTD didn't move button images by +1+1 pixels when they are pressed...
12:47:14  <andythenorth> which looks better?
12:48:09  <Timberwolf> You forget how little TTD actually had.
12:48:33  <Timberwolf> I fired it up the other day for something and was like, "wait, Clone Vehicle is something we introduced?"
12:50:03  <Timberwolf> I think that's one of those Sawyerisms though, I get the feeling he considers the need to micromanage replacement, cloning and upgrading vehicles to be part of the game.
12:51:32  <peter1138> It is
12:51:46  <peter1138> Same with convert track, mentioned in the livestream.
12:52:10  <Timberwolf> Cht: railtype 0 2
12:52:14  <Timberwolf> Or whatever it was.
12:52:14  <peter1138> Let's add options to turn off these things!
12:52:28  <peter1138> Is there still the option to turn off building on slopes?
12:52:42  <peter1138> I never really played TTDPatch.
12:53:06  <peter1138> Only ever loaded it to compare how NewStations behaved, during my many rewrites.
12:53:16  <Timberwolf> There's the livestream holy grail, Chris Sawyer to explain what he does and doesn't like about the gameplay changes, followed by Simon Foster critiquing newgrfs and OpenGFX. :)
12:55:04  <peter1138> I think it best not to go there.
12:56:13  <reldred> From what I heard Chris Sawyer *hated* TTDPatch.
12:56:47  <reldred> Very oldschool kinda guy. A lot of people didn't like the modding scene back in the day.
12:57:16  <Timberwolf> I recall hearing something along the lines of, "a game as released represents a particular team's vision, and it's not for other people to go and reinterpret that vision in a way the original team never intended"
12:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been their opinion, but that was never how it worked.
12:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> art is generally in a bad shape if it's treated as "this is final, and never to be modified/reinterpreted/whatever again"
13:00:10  <Timberwolf> Quite.
13:00:35  <reldred> Yeah, he was apparently a bit of an odd cat
13:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i won't judge that, since it's all hearsay
13:01:35  <LordAro> there's never been a definitive statement, afaik
13:01:58  <LordAro> just summaries of spokespeople's statements
13:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause> also, pretty much everyone in here is an "odd cat" :)
13:05:39  <Timberwolf> I think some of it is rumours in the absence of lots of public statements, newsgroup posts, social media and whatever.
13:06:20  <Timberwolf> The few interviews and videos that have emerged over the years don't make him come across as particularly odd, within the bounds of "old school 1980s assembly developer"
13:12:30  <andythenorth> the video showing the prototype TTO is good
13:12:34  <andythenorth> Youtube
13:13:19  <andythenorth> reminds me of me somewhat
13:13:55  <andythenorth> I have no rollercoaster obsession
13:16:35  <andythenorth> meh can't find the video
13:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: exactly
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13:34:47  <peter1138> Hmm, so padding is always external to the widget. Internal padding might be useful to have.
13:34:56  <andythenorth> goes it hide block signals from Steam client?
13:34:57  <andythenorth> :P
13:35:21  <peter1138> Hide teaching people to learn block/pre-signals first because... why would you do that?
13:35:35  <andythenorth> isn't
13:35:36  <andythenorth> it
13:35:43  <andythenorth> also why do people tell so many lies on the internet?
13:35:47  <andythenorth> shocking :)
13:35:48  <andythenorth>
13:35:55  <andythenorth> this lie about distance
13:36:08  <andythenorth> what DP's graphs show is that you have to be playing a very big map for that to be true
13:36:27  <andythenorth> there is some thing about overhead on loading times
13:36:48  <peter1138> What are they not promising?>
13:36:59  <andythenorth> I don't know
13:37:01  <andythenorth> marriage?
13:37:10  <peter1138> Doesn't everyone play on 4069x4096 because why not?
13:37:19  <andythenorth> for shame
13:37:24  <andythenorth> I use 32x32 only
13:37:29  <peter1138> Such gatekeeping by me here.
13:37:32  <peter1138> 2^32
13:37:35  <andythenorth> can we make a 1 tile map?
13:37:43  <peter1138> Yes, but it's a void tile.
13:37:48  <andythenorth> no
13:37:50  <andythenorth> transmitter
13:38:27  <peter1138> Go back to basics. Your map is 256x256 and you have no choice in the matter.
13:38:49  <andythenorth> was original 256?
13:38:57  <Timberwolf> Yep.
13:39:07  <LordAro> with coast edges
13:39:07  <peter1138> Or was it 255.
13:39:32  <peter1138> I think we have void tiles on all sides now, so a map is actually -2
13:40:14  <LordAro> there's some weird difference if you have the coast edges on
13:40:25  <LordAro> like the top edges aren't void, but sea
13:40:56  <andythenorth> Horse 100%
13:41:00  <andythenorth> so I should release it or something?
13:41:12  <andythenorth> oh a bit of yak-shaving first
13:41:26  <LordAro> paint the yak blue
13:41:30  <peter1138> I'm not sure that difference is there any more.
13:41:36  <peter1138> If it is, it shouldn't be.
13:41:57  <peter1138> I remember there were some... interesting interactions that changed depending on that settings.
13:42:03  <peter1138> Of course, old maps...
13:43:17  <LordAro> i think that was the problem
13:43:26  <LordAro> old maps are 255, new maps are 254
13:43:27  <LordAro> or something
13:43:46  <LordAro> 255, but with 253 usable*
13:44:04  <andythenorth> 3CC yak
13:44:08  <andythenorth> 3rd company colour when? :)
13:44:14  <andythenorth> 'not now andythenorth that's when'
13:44:18  <Timberwolf> Since tiles are the true economic unit, has the game been made easier or harder?
13:44:22  <andythenorth> be good though wouldn't it, 3CC
13:44:25  <andythenorth> or just wagon colours
13:44:47  <peter1138> Imagine choosing 3 different colours and it make barely a difference.
13:44:49  <peter1138> *making
13:44:59  <andythenorth> pink, cream, red
13:45:04  <andythenorth> blue, dark blue, light blue
13:45:28  <andythenorth> or if we had 'livery' sprite choosing crap for the realism crowd, I could abuse that for wagon colours
13:45:34  <andythenorth> or I could use cargo subtypes
13:45:39  <andythenorth> it's the fashionable solution
13:45:52  <andythenorth> Steel (Light Blue)
13:45:59  <peter1138> 1 engine-id per livery
13:46:01  <andythenorth> Cows (Green)
13:46:07  <andythenorth> peter1138 ^^ I tried that
13:46:12  <andythenorth> Horse branch for it
13:46:27  <andythenorth> it caused some seriously out of proportion reaction on Discord
13:46:34  <andythenorth> also looks weird, having repeated vehicle names
13:47:19  <andythenorth> 'tried that in newgrf' might be my version of 'got a patch for that'
13:48:58  <peter1138> "Hmm"
13:50:08  <andythenorth> all the liveries I drew :D
13:50:20  <andythenorth> but you get a choice of 2, by setting weird company colour combos
13:52:22  <dihedral> hey hey
13:56:06  <peter1138> I forgot you could show station coverage for a town.
13:58:07  <peter1138> < forgot about that work, too.
13:58:24  <peter1138> Multithreaded tick handler when?
13:58:52  <peter1138> Semi-joking.
13:59:16  <peter1138> I don't think it's all that common for games to have such a spread between vehicle types.
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14:07:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel
14:10:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel
14:16:38  <peter1138> Urgh, why am I so tired
14:16:45  <andythenorth> long covid
14:16:47  <andythenorth> lack of coffee
14:16:51  <andythenorth> lack of sleep
14:17:02  <andythenorth> lack of amphetamine sulphate
14:17:04  <andythenorth> all of the above?
14:17:16  <andythenorth>
14:17:32  * andythenorth "does not encourage drug use"
14:18:41  <reldred> I do!
14:18:44  <peter1138> Lack of sleep and exercise I think.
14:19:31  <peter1138> I wouldn't know where to get amphetamine.
14:19:39  <peter1138> Is it from an amphitheatre?
14:19:49  <andythenorth> well if you do find any, stay socially distanced when collecting
14:20:00  <andythenorth> meanwhile my trains with restaurant cars....make money
14:20:09  <peter1138> Good.
14:20:10  <andythenorth> so do the ones....without restaurant cars
14:20:12  <andythenorth> go figure
14:20:17  <peter1138> Ship it.
14:20:24  <andythenorth> should I do another half-day play-testing of tedious fake routes?
14:20:32  <andythenorth> guess how much that appeals?
14:20:46  <FLHerne> 'beta'
14:20:52  <peter1138> No, publish it and let your players do that.
14:20:56  <FLHerne> let other people do the playtesting, then sort by complaints
14:21:03  <andythenorth> I just do a bit more adding buy menu text
14:21:13  <peter1138> Sa.. can up with with some tideous graphs and results that don't mean anything.
14:21:18  <andythenorth> the 'if' statements for Horse buy menu are already lolz
14:21:25  <andythenorth> let's add to that
14:21:29  <andythenorth> maybe they'll implode
14:22:02  <peter1138> I might've had covid over xmas but I had two negative tests. But then the tests could easily be wrong...
14:22:07  <FLHerne> Yeah, you haven't caught up with CETS until it literally causes NMLC to crash through sheer size
14:22:09  <peter1138> So maybe it is long-covid.
14:22:51  <peter1138> Long-laziness more like.
14:23:18  <peter1138> Piss of Nest, I didn't ask for you to turn the heating off.
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14:34:34  <peter1138> +f
14:35:32  <peter1138> I also think I'm going a bit doolally. Making errors in sentences and not noticing until later.
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14:41:29  <andythenorth> I've been doing that for....years
14:41:38  <andythenorth> I look at old stuff I wrote, it's garbage
14:43:13  <andythenorth> so redstone for OpenTTD then?
14:43:16  <andythenorth> signals
14:43:18  <andythenorth> LED counters
14:43:33  <andythenorth> industry shenanigans
14:45:20  <peter1138> I wanted to at one point but realised that it's already there in JGR so why.
14:48:30  <andythenorth> fair point
14:57:30  <andythenorth> hmm
14:57:42  <andythenorth> goes it "Role: foo" text for all Horse vehicles?
14:57:48  <andythenorth> was just engines
14:57:50  <andythenorth> now coaches
14:57:56  <andythenorth> soon wagons?
14:58:10  <andythenorth> "Role: freight" seemed redundant TBH
14:58:18  <andythenorth> but now it seems inconsistent to not have it
14:58:47  <peter1138> Role: Swiss
15:00:18  <peter1138> Four whole pee ems and I've barely done anything. FS.
15:06:56  <andythenorth> Role: Cheese
15:07:16  <andythenorth> lol testing pax train profitability
15:07:21  <andythenorth> in a cdist game
15:07:26  <andythenorth> is silly andythenorth
15:12:04  <andythenorth> hmm
15:12:12  <andythenorth> well I spent 3 days redoing this
15:12:36  <andythenorth> but it's about the same or worse :)
15:12:36  <andythenorth> GG
15:12:37  <andythenorth> WP
15:19:17  <Wolf01> Bad back pain again :(
15:19:21  <andythenorth> ouch
15:19:24  <andythenorth> hmm
15:19:35  <andythenorth> so I am trying to get cargo aging period to do something
15:19:48  <Wolf01> I hope from monday I'll get better with the medication
15:20:21  <andythenorth> what does cargo aging do again? :P
15:20:24  * andythenorth looks it up
15:20:34  <Wolf01> Complicates stuff
15:21:02  <andythenorth> a tick is 2.5 days?
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15:36:11  <andythenorth> goes it set very aggressive payment decay on FIRS pax?
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15:48:53  <supermop_Home_> Wolf01 did you get vaccine?
15:49:06  <Wolf01> Not yet
15:50:05  <supermop_Home_> there has been some evidence here that some of the vaccines help clear up long-lingering symptoms in people who have long-lasting residual covid symptoms
15:50:14  <supermop_Home_> hopefully you can get it soon!
15:50:41  <supermop_Home_> my vaccine made me feel car sick for about a day though
15:53:25  <Wolf01> Not covid related, but covid may have helped to get worse, slipped discs and compressed nerves, that's because I sit down too much and didn't do enough physical activity
15:53:51  <Wolf01> Now I can't sit down at all :)
15:57:11  <_dp_> hi, is there any estimate on 1.11.1?
15:57:36  <Wolf01> Hmmmm interesting number
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16:01:28  <riis> is there a way to print console logs to a file on windows?
16:02:12  <riis> on the subreddit someone discussed a way to do it on linux, i have no idea if it works
16:04:58  <Wolf01> I think it's just standard output, you shoud be able to launch it with > yourfile.txt and get what you wna
16:05:01  <Wolf01> *want
16:06:11  <riis> do i still need to convert ottd to a console app?
16:06:28  <riis> the command i came across is openttd -d 1 >> .logfile.log 2>&1
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16:15:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
16:16:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere commented on issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
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16:20:16  <Wolf01> andythenorth forget flash, make games with css :D:D:D:D
16:28:05  <andythenorth> wow
16:28:42  <andythenorth> so I need some numbers
16:28:45  <andythenorth> send numbers
16:29:15  <Wolf01> 42
16:29:56  <michi_cc> 69
16:30:02  <LordAro> 5
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16:30:41  <andythenorth> ok
16:31:31  <andythenorth> I have vehicle A, with capacity 48, and default cargo age period 185
16:31:48  <andythenorth> I have vehicle B, with capacity 79, and cargo age period N
16:32:18  <andythenorth> what does N need to be, so that A profit > B profit on a travel time of 15 days
16:32:30  <andythenorth> [costs are levelled]
16:33:09  <andythenorth> oh we'd need the slope set by the cargo grf for the cargo
16:34:26  <andythenorth> curve is
16:35:45  <andythenorth> distance is 40
16:36:12  <andythenorth> so rates can double
16:36:22  <Wolf01> Did you try with imaginary numbers yet?
16:36:42  <andythenorth> @calc 134 * 2 * (48/10)
16:36:42  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1286.3999999999999
16:36:52  <andythenorth> @calc 133 * 2 * (79/10)
16:36:52  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2101.4
16:37:26  <Wolf01> Probably the complex realm could really help you
16:37:37  <andythenorth> this is actually lame
16:37:55  <andythenorth> I should have checked this 3 days ago eh
16:38:21  <andythenorth> I never pay any attention to how long vehicles take to travel a route in game
16:38:51  <andythenorth> I have been working on the basis that other authors say the magic number for cargo aging to work is about 64 tiles
16:38:59  <andythenorth> but that doesn't account for speed
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16:44:33  <andythenorth> oops :)
16:44:48  <andythenorth> well I can't be arsed to revert it all
16:49:09  <Wolf01> What does speed has to do with cargo aging?
16:49:29  <andythenorth> it's related by ... maths? :P
16:49:32  <andythenorth> yes/no?
16:49:55  <andythenorth> uuf /me should be nicer
16:49:57  <andythenorth> sorry
16:50:15  <andythenorth> faster trains arrive sooner, cargo ages less
16:50:16  <Wolf01> Only if you can reach lightspeed or use whormholes?
16:50:44  <andythenorth> so the idea that aging is about distance is nonsense
16:50:49  <andythenorth> but that is what is written
16:50:52  <andythenorth> in the forums and so on
16:51:50  <andythenorth> and in my own code comments and advice
16:51:54  <andythenorth> 'oops'
16:52:21  <Wolf01> I think it was you that started this and now it's like a boomerang :P
16:53:51  <andythenorth> it's been around for a while, first posts about it are 2010-2013 or so
16:54:02  <andythenorth> but I have gamed myself yes
16:54:51  <andythenorth> this is interesting
16:55:04  <Wolf01> <- this should answer your questions
16:57:56  <andythenorth> ;0
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17:00:52  <andythenorth> this game looks awesome
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17:06:15  <andythenorth> so theory 1 was to increase cargo age period above 185, to give a bonus to some vehicles
17:06:28  <andythenorth> when that didn't work, some of us tried theory 2
17:06:47  <andythenorth> theory 2 is to set fast aging to give a malus to some vehicles instead
17:06:56  <andythenorth> but as that doesn't work either, how about theory 3?
17:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you could increase the size of the age counter
17:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> to make shorter age period reasonable
17:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you could completely rework the price calculation
17:12:35  <andythenorth> maybe I should make a spreadsheet with a chart
17:12:54  <andythenorth> I can't work out what the result of setting age period to 1 would be
17:12:59  <andythenorth> on a route that takes 15 days
17:13:45  <andythenorth> it won't age  185 times faster, right?
17:13:57  <andythenorth> 15 times faster?
17:15:09  <Wolf01> I still don't get it
17:17:43  <andythenorth> ok my test train has now lost £80k in a year with cargo age 1
17:17:51  <andythenorth> but running cost is £47k so that's lol
17:18:09  <andythenorth> must be residual transfer credits on the test route
17:18:12  <Wolf01> Negative income cargo
17:18:14  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:19:03  <Wolf01> Quak
17:20:11  <glx> <riis> do i still need to convert ottd to a console app? <-- yes still needed on windows
17:20:37  <glx> we do it for CI regression test
17:24:24  *** Synck has joined #openttd
17:25:10  <andythenorth> looks like setting cargo aging to 1 does have an effect on a 15 day route
17:25:37  <andythenorth> for FIRS pax at least
17:25:41  <andythenorth> dunno about other grfs
17:26:19  <andythenorth> the case in 2013 against a payment multiplier was that setting the cargo payment should be left to the cargo grf
17:26:21  * peter1138 grumbles about gui sprites with transparent areas
17:26:37  <andythenorth> and that a cargo aging period is the correct solution
17:26:45  <andythenorth> because that doesn't....mess with the payment curve at all
17:27:05  <andythenorth> peter1138 what have they done to you?
17:27:16  <andythenorth> can I help? :P
17:27:23  <andythenorth> this cargo shit got boring a week ago
17:27:25  <peter1138> They cause wrong window sizing.
17:27:31  <andythenorth> ouch
17:27:48  <peter1138> Known old problem
17:28:16  <peter1138> Back in the old days the widget size was specified in pixels, and the sprite drawn in the top left.
17:28:36  <peter1138> So if the sprite is smaller than the button it doesn't matter
17:28:49  <peter1138> Why would you waste time drawing transparent pixels?
17:29:06  <peter1138> But then we started using the sprite size to determine the button size, and...
17:29:33  <andythenorth> I see
17:29:35  <andythenorth> classic
17:29:51  <peter1138> And even if the button size is fixed, drawing the sprite in the centre is not correct.
17:31:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
17:32:11  *** Synck has quit IRC
17:32:32  <LordAro> sounds like a bug in ogfx :p
17:32:41  <Wolf01> Calculate total width considering transparent pixels but center alignment without the transparent pixels?
17:32:56  <peter1138> The transparent pixels don't exist.
17:33:01  <peter1138> LordAro, original graphics.
17:34:01  <michi_cc> Hmm, is there anything we really don't want to backport to 1.11.1? Looking at GitHub, almost all recent PRs are tagged for backport anyway.
17:34:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8951: Fix graphical issues with dragging measurement tooltips in the viewport
17:35:26  <andythenorth> do cargo packets age on stations?
17:35:28  <peter1138> Deep Oceans.
17:35:39  * andythenorth getting nonsensical results from testing
17:37:16  <glx> michi_cc: well the first backport batch will be easy, but once we add some features it will be another story
17:37:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request
17:37:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #186: [pt_BR] Translator access request
17:38:08  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
17:38:59  <peter1138> andythenorth, days_in_transit?
17:39:05  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
17:39:19  <andythenorth> 2.5 days / tick?
17:40:28  <peter1138> Well, it's increased 1 when your cargo_age_period lops
17:40:30  <peter1138> *loops
17:40:51  <peter1138> but it only goes up to 255
17:40:59  <andythenorth> got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1
17:41:12  <andythenorth> on a route of 15 tiles first vehicle earns about 6x more than second
17:41:14  <andythenorth> which looks about right
17:41:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #184: [zh_CN] Translator access request
17:42:36  <andythenorth> hmm, no the in-game cargo chart never shows the payment curve reaching 6x less than starting value
17:42:49  <peter1138> Maybe I could just Action 5 some replacement sprites to get rid of the offsets and stuff.
17:43:32  * andythenorth completely confused
17:43:37  <michi_cc> glx: There's a macOS crash-bug, 1.11.1 shouldn't wait that long.
17:43:51  <LordAro> ^
17:43:53  <andythenorth> really not sure what value I'm supposed to set :)
17:43:53  <glx> I know
17:44:00  <LordAro> be nice to fix the GL-related crashes as well though
17:44:06  <andythenorth> the empirical testing doesn't give me any useful number :)
17:44:12  <peter1138> Are there GL crashes?
17:44:19  <andythenorth> I need a number, then I need to factor in vehicle speed
17:44:20  <glx> at least 2 different
17:44:31  <andythenorth> then I need to factor in FIRS payment rate, and default game pax rate
17:44:39  <andythenorth> and detect all known FIRS versions
17:44:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request
17:44:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 closed issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request
17:45:10  <glx> but they are weird #8967 and #8969
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17:46:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: to extend your list: we support amazon by streaming on twitch, and we support google by uploading to youtube
17:46:44  *** jottyfan has quit IRC
17:48:17  <TrueBrain> ah, there is Google
17:48:18  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
17:49:31  <peter1138> LordAro, this offset + transparency issue is also why the buoy icon is in the wrong place on the waterways construction menu, and the place sign button the landscaping menu
17:49:47  <peter1138> There's probably some other locations
17:50:09  <LordAro> peter1138: is it actual original graphics, or our-original graphics ?
17:50:17  <frosch123> hmm, buoy used to use the same sprite on map and in gui
17:50:20  <frosch123> was that fixed somewhen?
17:50:46  <peter1138> It's a different sprite
17:51:38  <peter1138> LordAro, the music player sprites are definitely original, I think place sign is too, not sure about the buoy
17:52:24  <andythenorth> frosch123 can your cargo aging spreadsheet model setting age period to 1
17:52:25  <andythenorth> ?
17:53:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:53:17  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:53:25  <peter1138> I wonder if we should add back the "vu" meter :D
17:53:30  <frosch123> it can, but 1 is a pretty silly value, it will reach the age limit pretty fast
17:53:49  <andythenorth> I am curious what it predicts
17:54:05  <andythenorth> that only ages 6 times on a 15 day journey?
17:54:05  <frosch123> someone should write a blog about vehicle economy
17:54:21  <andythenorth> I don't think it can be me
17:54:31  <andythenorth> testing empirically, the results are non-understandable
17:54:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, 1 will max out aging after 3 days or so
17:55:57  <frosch123> and since age includes loading and unloading, it would require a rather short trip :p
17:56:16  <andythenorth> ok so I need to time from when first cargo is loaded?
17:56:25  <andythenorth> not departure :P
17:56:29  <andythenorth> that affects empiricism
17:56:31  <frosch123> cargo ages inside vehicles
17:57:00  <andythenorth> ok
17:57:20  <frosch123> if you have gradual loading (probably), the cargo will be of different age
17:57:36  <andythenorth> are cargo packets FIFO?
17:57:38  <andythenorth> or LIFO?
17:57:59  <frosch123> neither, vehicles have a blender installed on them
17:58:05  <andythenorth> super :)
17:58:13  <frosch123> they mix old and new cargo into a homogenous blend of middle-aged cargo
17:58:18  <andythenorth> probably only a marginal difference
17:58:40  <andythenorth> 17 day route, 6.76x profit difference, identical run costs
17:59:16  <andythenorth> I am trying to scale vehicle A and vehicle B so that vehicle A is more profitable on routes > 20 days
17:59:24  <andythenorth> I can't find a scaling factor
17:59:36  <frosch123> haha, factor 7 difference in income :p i heard newgrf authors say, cargo aging does nothing :p
17:59:45  <andythenorth> I can normalise it for vehicle speed later
17:59:57  <andythenorth> and then I can detect which grf is providing pax
18:00:16  <andythenorth> and find out the payment curve steepness
18:00:53  <andythenorth> I am going to ignore different playstyles, and route congestion and cdist transfer payment effect
18:01:48  <andythenorth> 1 is too fast, I'll try 2
18:02:02  <andythenorth> I wonder if there's enough granularity
18:05:01  <andythenorth> 2 hits the floor I think
18:05:14  <andythenorth> shall I increment in 1, or bisect? :P
18:06:37  <peter1138> printf
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18:06:41  <peter1138> Add lots of printfs :D
18:08:10  <andythenorth> the route takes 20 days and I want a 1/1.66 reduction of earnings
18:08:17  <andythenorth> number must be there to be found
18:11:11  <frosch123> <- do you want charts like that? but for vehicle profits?
18:11:53  <andythenorth> I don't know if I want it :)
18:12:03  <andythenorth> but this is what's in the spec
18:12:11  <andythenorth> the number is > 15
18:12:15  <andythenorth> this is exciting no?
18:12:21  <andythenorth> is the number 18?
18:12:26  <frosch123> it's a paper solution to a problem that is better solved with some interactive app
18:12:58  <andythenorth> well if we could make it interactive
18:13:04  <andythenorth> we'd have the formula? :)
18:13:10  <peter1138> So apparenly "4" corresponds to 10 days. Hmm.
18:13:17  <andythenorth> and if we have the formula, I could reverse it
18:13:27  <andythenorth> then we could just automate having a payment multiplier
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18:14:54  <peter1138> So 185 is 462 days?
18:16:01  <andythenorth> that matches what spec says
18:16:05  <andythenorth> in newgrf wiki
18:16:18  <peter1138> Ok. Graph doesn't show that value. heh.
18:17:25  <andythenorth> I don't really understand the graph
18:17:32  <andythenorth> cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks
18:17:41  <andythenorth> but the graph shows it aging immediately
18:18:08  <andythenorth> the chart x scale only goes to 200 days even
18:18:23  <peter1138> What does "cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks" mean?
18:19:05  <andythenorth> from the wiki " By default, cargo is aged every 185 ticks"
18:19:38  <andythenorth> which implies a flat line for first 462 days
18:19:48  <andythenorth> but chart shows immediate slope
18:20:22  <peter1138> Wrong way around.
18:20:28  <peter1138> 185 ticks is 10 game days
18:21:12  <andythenorth> makes more sense
18:21:46  * andythenorth re-reads wiki
18:21:50  <andythenorth> " 185 game ticks (roughly 2.5 game days)"
18:22:52  <LordAro> @calc 185/74
18:22:52  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 2.5
18:22:57  <LordAro> roughly.
18:23:22  <TrueBrain> @calc 2.5*74
18:23:22  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 185
18:23:26  <TrueBrain> shocker
18:24:11  <peter1138> Oh, right, I missed it too :p
18:24:28  <peter1138> Stupid brains
18:24:44  <peter1138> Anyway, graph on discord... I wonder what I've done wrong :p
18:25:02  <TrueBrain> I like that graph
18:25:15  <TrueBrain> challenging to not deliver it too quickly, but also not too late
18:27:56  <peter1138> Well, looking at it, I've not done anything to cause an overflow/rounding issue. So it's not impossible that cargo aging is broken.
18:28:48  <andythenorth> nice graph
18:29:05  <andythenorth> snail said in testing it was parabolic
18:29:06  <peter1138> Hmm, unless it is wrapping again.
18:29:07  <andythenorth> but eh
18:29:40  <peter1138> j = 0; j != 60; j++
18:29:42  <peter1138> j * 4 + 4
18:30:06  <peter1138> That... is still only up to 244, not wrapping past 255.
18:34:09  <andythenorth> wiki says timefactor is floored at 31
18:34:25  <peter1138> Yes, it is.
18:34:25  * andythenorth doesn't have src open
18:34:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8943: Volume controls in Game Options window
18:35:25  <andythenorth> dp's charts show route length not days, but eh
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18:37:44  * andythenorth is there a livestream soon, where we can ask questions? :P
18:38:06  <frosch123> right, i have to prepare my bingo card
18:38:06  <michi_cc> I will make sure we will ignore you all the time :P
18:38:43  <andythenorth> "how does cargo payment work?" :P
18:38:54  <peter1138> return 4;
18:39:58  <peter1138> Ok, I guess the drawing is wrong :D
18:41:17  <peter1138> Yeah, I confused MAX_DATASETS with NUM_MONTHS
18:41:27  <peter1138> (because days are months, amirite?)
18:41:47  <peter1138> Okay, looks better now
18:42:10  <peter1138> Passengers flatlines after 310 days
18:43:25  <peter1138> Somewhere between £11-£12.
18:43:39  <peter1138> 18:40 < andythenorth> got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1
18:44:55  * andythenorth tests some more
18:44:59  <andythenorth> maybe it's 20
18:45:02  <andythenorth> magic numbers
18:46:54  <frosch123> hmm, what are the rules for bingo? is it enough for a question to be asked in chat, or do the broadcasters have to acknowledge it also?
18:47:07  <frosch123> the latter is way harder to predict
18:48:02  <michi_cc> Depends how large you make your bingo field I guess. Unless only trivial questions are asked I don't think we'll manage that many questions.
18:49:43  <andythenorth> glad we made fast forward fast
18:49:51  <andythenorth> testing cargo age takes a long time
18:50:05  <peter1138> Didn't the first round of timing changes make it fast anyway?
18:50:29  <peter1138> (2 years? ago)
18:50:34  <andythenorth> not on a mac
18:50:38  <peter1138> Bloody macs.
18:50:48  <TrueBrain> there is fast, and insanely fast :P
18:51:14  <andythenorth> ok so 20 is the number for cargo age
18:51:16  <andythenorth> why though?
18:51:28  <peter1138> Whose number where?
18:51:29  <andythenorth> this is just for one type of train
18:51:41  <andythenorth> I need a formula to balance out arbitrary trains
18:52:07  <andythenorth> all the factors are available, vehicle speed, capacity
18:52:32  <andythenorth> grf payment curve I can get by decompiling all the cargo / industry grf
18:53:51  <andythenorth> I can add a parameter for player to select the balancing point
18:54:08  <andythenorth> well a few parameters TBH
18:54:58  <andythenorth> when I first suggested a formula last week I was trolling myself
18:55:08  <andythenorth> but now it looks like the best route
18:56:52  <peter1138> Action 5 "extend existing sprite" :/
18:57:33  <peter1138> VS Code doesn't seem to cache references. Takes ages to look them up.
19:01:40  <andythenorth> I probably can't use running costs to fake a cargo payment multiplier?
19:01:49  <andythenorth> CB36 doesn't run often enough
19:01:50  <andythenorth> ?
19:03:05  <frosch123> running cost is one of those cb that run all the time
19:03:25  <frosch123> people use it to set running cost to 0 at 0 speed
19:03:47  <frosch123> and to set it to a higher value when accelerating (0 < speed < max speed)
19:03:57  <frosch123> and a third value when idling at max speed
19:04:09  <andythenorth> sounds promising
19:04:30  <andythenorth> can we have signed running costs?
19:04:49  <andythenorth> might need some flag setting, in case existing grfs have running costs > 127?
19:04:54  <andythenorth> oh the cb goes higher
19:16:27  <andythenorth> or maybe a payment multiplier would be simpler dunno :|
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19:44:09  <frosch123> hmm, it's actually hard to come up with 25 unique questions
19:44:25  <frosch123> usually people ask the same thing 5 times with different words
19:46:40  <EER> I'd be interested to know about some behind the scenes stuff with the steam release, like anything noteworthy that had to change in the release process? Other than that just looking forward to some banter ;-)
19:47:43  <frosch123> he, that's cheating
19:47:51  <frosch123> you can't ask questions before the stream
19:48:13  <michi_cc> There will be some banter I guess, but otherwise we'll try to seriously answer questions.
19:49:06  <EER> I did press ctrl+shift+c before typing this, so I thought that should enable cheats :p
19:49:52  <frosch123> too bad the "overly dramatic message" was removed :p
19:50:22  <supermop_Home_> frosch123 i use different running costs for: in depot (no crew), stopped (crew but no operational cost), accelerating (heavy fuel use and mechanical wear), and cruising (minimal fuel and wear)
19:52:39  <supermop_Home_> and a bunch of switches, so that the labor part gets more expensive than the fuel part as time progresses
19:54:39  <supermop_Home_> i'd rather vehicles just had a property of "how many people staff this thing" and the cost of worker/month can be then set by newgrf or GS or NewInflation
19:55:45  <frosch123> then you need a setting "labor unions: on/off"
19:55:50  <supermop_Home_> ofc
19:56:15  <andythenorth> is there a var that will give me how many days the route will take?
19:56:17  <supermop_Home_> to be serious though, i feel there is value separating out labor vs fuel cost
19:56:20  <frosch123> are there still two drivers in uk trains?
19:56:33  <andythenorth> nah
19:56:36  <andythenorth> controversial that
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19:56:51  <Timberwolf> It would tie things right back to Chris Sawyer's PC conversion of Frontier, to have your train sit in depot 8 months because you upgraded from 7 crew to 12 crew and the RNG won't give you anyone to hire.
19:56:55  <frosch123> was it a thatcher thing?
19:57:00  <andythenorth> predates that
19:57:05  <andythenorth> it was driver + fireman
19:57:19  <andythenorth> and then driver + guard, but guard has to go in back cab
19:57:23  <supermop_Home_> steam engine cheaper to run than diesel in 1930 but much much more expensive in 1990
19:57:24  <andythenorth> unless there is no back cab
19:57:29  <andythenorth> then a brake van is needed
19:57:44  <andythenorth> also if there are certain types of brake system, the guard may not ride in the rear cab
19:57:49  <andythenorth> so then brake van
19:57:53  <andythenorth> Horse 3.0 models all this?
19:58:09  <supermop_Home_> i think that dynamic has real gameplay value beyond the rivet counting
19:58:19  <andythenorth> orly?
19:58:20  <andythenorth>  :P
19:58:20  <frosch123> yes, start/stop callback: the labor union does not approve operation of this train in this configuration
19:58:25  <frosch123> no further explanation needed
19:58:57  <supermop_Home_> that the cost/benefit comparison of 2 different vehicle types can change over time
19:59:16  <frosch123> not enough politics in ottd
19:59:37  <supermop_Home_> i'm not even thinking of labor politics, just
19:59:37  <frosch123> anyway, i made it to 30 questions... time to drop 5, and put the rest on a 5x5 grid
19:59:58  <Timberwolf> Add complexity to the economic model, that gets political fast.
20:00:32  <supermop_Home_> simple but labor intensive machine is cheap early, complex but easy to use machine is cheap later
20:01:25  <Timberwolf> There's an interesting discussion somewhere of SimCity have an ultra-capitalist economic model, somewhat against the grain of what Will Wright talks about around the game.
20:01:56  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf i just want a way to add another property to compare vehicles in game
20:02:08  <frosch123> when people talk "simcity" these days. what version do they refer to?
20:02:09  <Timberwolf> (Sims in game only care about land value. If it's going up they want to move to your city, if it's flat or decreasing they want to move away.)
20:02:30  <frosch123> iirc the last version (2013?) was so terrible, it killed the series
20:02:35  <Timberwolf> Heh. Original, 2000, 3000, 4 and Cities: Skylines :)
20:02:45  <frosch123> oh, right, cities:skylines it is
20:02:55  <Timberwolf> I don't know what model Skylines uses.
20:02:58  <supermop_Home_> of course if a new grf author sets every steam, electric, and maglev train to have 1 staff and 1 unit of fuel consumption that's up to them
20:03:21  <andythenorth> I am trying to find a way to have vehicles trade tile length and income
20:03:30  <andythenorth> but I have spectacularly failed so far
20:03:38  <Timberwolf> I realised this when I added the taxation-effects-town-growth mechanic to Villages Is Villages.
20:04:02  <andythenorth> more capacity / length = more income
20:04:03  <andythenorth> no trade
20:04:29  <andythenorth> arsing around counting how many days a route takes and then looking on the cargo payment chart isn't turning out to be fun
20:04:53  <Timberwolf> Maximum population in towns depends on tax, maximum size of city depends on total dividends paid, the city with your HQ in it grows immediately when you pay dividends.
20:04:57  <andythenorth> running costs would need to know the income in advance :(
20:05:03  <supermop_Home_> currently if you set steam train to 120 runcost and diesel to 130, they will have the same delta forever
20:05:07  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
20:05:21  <Timberwolf> I did this and then thought, "hang on, that's actually a series of quite strong political statements"
20:07:17  <supermop_Home_> some trainsets have electric trains with higher running cost than diesel
20:07:25  <supermop_Home_> consistently
20:07:32  <Timberwolf> Or rather, the net effect of them is.
20:08:21  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ that would be fixable within the spec though?
20:08:23  <andythenorth> Timberwolf is GS?
20:08:28  <supermop_Home_> so its like you pay more to build and maintain the tracks, pay more to buy and run the trains, totally linearly
20:08:35  <Timberwolf> YEah, that's my town growth and economy GS.
20:08:58  <supermop_Home_> in return you maybe get a little sportier performance, or maybe all the diesel trains become obsolete
20:09:28  <Timberwolf> The economy setup is that if companies pay a lot of money to their shareholders but little to the state, cities prosper at the expense of towns.
20:10:27  <Timberwolf> I do think it needs a way to influence things one way or the other so you actually have some agency in this.
20:10:37  <supermop_Home_> but there is no trade off of "this is a high traffic line, i should electrify it" vs "this line gets little traffic, it makes sense to pay a little more per mile in fuel for the one train than to hang up wires over it"
20:11:50  <supermop_Home_> like wise, at the steam/diesel/electric transition, basically steam trains are cheaper and have lower running cost than early electrics or the first diesels
20:12:16  <andythenorth> I pretty much levelled the steam and diesel
20:12:43  <supermop_Home_> so it comes down to just "its the 50s now, there are no more steam trains and all the next diesels will be better across the board"
20:13:25  <supermop_Home_> what i am getting at has 3 levels i guess:
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20:15:39  <supermop_Home_> 1) tad more granularity to running cost, 2) some dynamic comparison between vehicle types, 3) most remotely, an inkling of a richer inflation/economy model (certain things can get more expensive faster than others)
20:20:38  <andythenorth> 1) is fine no?  I don't have trouble with it
20:20:44  <andythenorth> 2) ... well
20:22:20  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:34  <andythenorth> something is wrong about the idea of a cargo aging malus on some vehicles
20:22:45  <andythenorth> it doesn't work right on routes that are supposed to be above the threshold
20:23:52  <andythenorth> I think it's because the 'short route' train has already hit the decay limit
20:24:01  <andythenorth> and the 'long route' train continues to decay
20:24:13  <andythenorth> so the difference between them reduces as a ratio
20:30:37  <peter1138> Yes, it will.
20:31:14  <peter1138> Solution, get rid of the threshold. If it takes too long, no payment is made :p
20:31:25  <supermop_Home_> +1
20:31:54  <supermop_Home_> if it takes too long the passengers sue you for unlawful detainment
20:32:12  <andythenorth> I started with cargo aging 1 :P
20:32:26  <andythenorth> I should have set the other train to 0
20:32:36  <andythenorth> Vehicle A: ages immediately
20:32:41  <andythenorth> Vehicle B: ages never
20:32:46  <andythenorth> You decide!
20:33:04  <andythenorth> then there is no threshold :P
20:33:06  <andythenorth> just play
20:33:56  <andythenorth> where did I leave my payment multiplier patch?
20:34:21  <andythenorth> lol, so not a patch
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20:42:34  <andythenorth> ok the magic number doesn't work
20:42:41  <andythenorth> it's way too faffy
20:42:46  <andythenorth> 20 is too low, 32 is too high
20:43:11  <andythenorth> allowing for e.g. slopes, congestion, train speed, train power etc, it's going to be too fragile
20:43:21  * andythenorth abandons that
20:43:30  <peter1138> Vary it by something
20:43:49  <peter1138> Something random
20:43:57  <andythenorth> day of year?
20:44:02  <andythenorth> not exactly random :P
20:44:07  <peter1138> Hmm,
20:44:14  <andythenorth> cargo aging is just a dice roll?
20:55:54  <frosch123> make cargo aging depend on the year, and use that to compensate inflation :p
20:56:48  <andythenorth> I think you might need to stage an intervention soon
20:56:54  <andythenorth> and we never mention cargo aging again
20:57:01  <andythenorth> it's starting to traumatise me
20:57:12  <andythenorth> I took the idea of 'random per vehicle' seriously
20:57:29  <frosch123> are you on the stream? or do you want to ask questions yourself?
20:57:36  <andythenorth> I am not on the stream
20:57:39  <frosch123> i finished my bingo card, but i may need a second player
20:57:49  <andythenorth> GG
20:58:12  <andythenorth> hmm I tried using speed as a balance against capacity
20:58:20  <andythenorth> but moar pax = moar payment
20:58:26  <frosch123> i decided to count both "questions asked in chat" and "question acknowledged by streamers"
20:58:52  <andythenorth> I don't think I could keep up with questions in caht
20:58:53  <andythenorth> chat *
20:58:55  <frosch123> if the latter wins, it has precedencs. the former is a backup-rule, if noone wins otherwise
20:59:34  <frosch123> oh, quite sure it will be the same as on reddit or steam. every 5th line the same question by a different guy
21:00:25  <frosch123> we can play another game: take the first question that is answered. guess how often it is asked again during the stream :p
21:00:35  <andythenorth> so many games :)
21:00:52  <andythenorth> prize for best question also
21:04:24  * andythenorth adventures in C++
21:04:36  <andythenorth> any way to get the vehicle from VehicleCargoList?
21:04:44  <andythenorth> or would a reference have to be store in VehicleCargoList?
21:05:14  <nielsm> too late to try looking anything like that up
21:05:30  <andythenorth> I can only face this late at night :)
21:05:35  <andythenorth> this is so...out of my depth
21:05:42  <andythenorth> ideally I would have drunk more
21:06:41  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:06:46  <andythenorth> they have this->Parent
21:06:54  <andythenorth> but I don't know what that would get me :)
21:06:59  * andythenorth should learn to printf
21:08:04  <andythenorth> typedef CargoList<VehicleCargoList, CargoPacketList> Parent; might be a thing
21:08:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why do all FIRS 4 industries have such enormous base production :-(
21:08:24  <andythenorth> they do?
21:08:24  <FLHerne> I'm trying to build my little 64^2 world
21:08:47  <andythenorth> I think it might be a valid case for a parameter
21:08:50  <FLHerne> But everything needs trains, because the number of 1920 road trucks to move 200 tons/mo is impractical
21:09:02  <FLHerne> I think it would be nice if it scaled up by date
21:09:05  <andythenorth> ctrl-alt-c?
21:09:13  <FLHerne> but of course that's another thing to tune
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21:09:30  <andythenorth> well I have been considering ways to allow production to increase
21:09:31  <FLHerne> Which cheat?
21:09:47  <FLHerne> Money is ok, it just looks really stupid
21:09:50  *** glx has joined #openttd
21:09:51  <andythenorth> Enable modifying production values?
21:09:57  <FLHerne> oooh
21:10:04  <FLHerne> I completely forgot that was a thing
21:10:05  <andythenorth> FIRS respects that setting
21:10:17  <andythenorth> I could do a parameter though
21:10:29  <FLHerne> I foresee abusing this to an absurd degree in future games
21:10:48  <andythenorth> "Base production" would be ok
21:10:50  <FLHerne> "damn this industry is producing too much for my aesthetic trainset" is a frequent annoyance
21:11:20  <andythenorth> I'd like to restore the option for OpenTTD to increase production
21:11:29  <andythenorth> in conjuction with supplies
21:11:43  <andythenorth> not sure I can control it enough
21:11:57  <andythenorth> also this Horse thing is my current unhealthy obsession
21:13:18  *** nielsm has quit IRC
21:14:51  <FLHerne> I like the lack of production increase of served industries
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21:15:05  <FLHerne> In base game it just gets unmanageable without huge unrealistic stations
21:15:54  <FLHerne> More variety in base production between instances would be nice IMO
21:16:11  <FLHerne> That way I could choose how 'big' a farm I want to serve
21:16:23  <FLHerne> Well, not on this tiny map because there's one farm :p
21:16:51  <FLHerne> oops, I just crashed ottd
21:22:41  <peter1138> Nice
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21:24:04  <andythenorth> I was thinking maybe a GS :P
21:24:06  <andythenorth> could do it
21:24:23  <andythenorth> I also considered the option to have 'lucky' and 'unlucky' industries
21:24:32  <andythenorth> lucky ones occasionally increase if given supplies
21:24:39  <andythenorth> (base increase)
21:26:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8975: Change: do not disable NewGRF window apply button if dev tools are enabled
21:26:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus.
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21:37:27  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: can you make GitHub accept .sav as an upload file type, or is that a hardcoded GH thing?
21:38:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne opened issue #8977: Crash when increasing max zoom
21:42:26  <FLHerne> bleh, GitHub is stupid
21:42:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
21:48:03  <peter1138> I love stupid dirty hacks.
21:48:28  <peter1138> if (id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; PadSingleSprite(s, ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X, 0, 0, 20 - s->width - s->x_offs, 20 - s->height - s->y_offs); }
21:48:32  <peter1138> :p
21:48:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
21:49:08  <didac> OK so the weirdest thing is happening:
21:49:17  <didac> thank you DorpsGek, so nice of you
21:52:09  <peter1138> Yeah, don't use Onedrive for stuff you don't want to sync...
21:52:54  <peter1138> All sorts of weird shit happens.
21:56:16  <andythenorth> peter1138 that looks like something I'd do :P
21:56:22  <andythenorth> it would work, and it would be ick
21:56:55  <andythenorth> condition="vehicle.is_lead_unit_of_consist and (consist.power > 0 or consist.buy_menu_hint_wagons_add_power) or consist._buy_menu_role_string is not None"
21:56:56  <andythenorth> oof
21:57:38  <peter1138> See, it works ;p
22:01:15  <peter1138> Possibly removing the offsets will work instead
22:01:43  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: zip the sav file and you can upload it
22:03:08  <FLHerne> I did that
22:03:31  <FLHerne> But it would be more convenient not to :p
22:04:47  <FLHerne> "bleh, GitHub is stupid" was when I realized it had parsed the #1, #2, #3, ... in the backtrace as issue numbers, and then helpfully put backlink comments "FLHerne mentioned in issue" on every one of those
22:06:11  <dwfreed> FLHerne: edit that section and wrap it with ```
22:06:25  <dwfreed> 1) it'll be easier to read; 2) it won't do issue references
22:06:46  <andythenorth> hmm is it bedtime?
22:07:00  <dwfreed> I mean, it's 11 PM for you, right?
22:07:06  <andythenorth> yair
22:07:18  <dwfreed> so, probably close :P
22:07:20  <andythenorth> I took a week off to work on grf :)
22:07:41  <andythenorth> 7 days in, all I've achieved is deleted a bunch of Iron Horse, then tried to restore it for 3 days, then failed :D
22:07:48  <andythenorth> I could cry if it wasn't so lolz
22:08:02  <dwfreed> oof
22:08:53  <FLHerne> dwfreed: From previous experience, editing doesn't remove the references
22:08:59  <FLHerne> So I'd need a time machine
22:09:12  <dwfreed> It won't remove the backlinks, but it will remove the forward links
22:09:32  <dwfreed> it will stop seeing #1 as an issue reference in your issue
22:09:35  <FLHerne> I don't really care about those
22:09:46  <dwfreed> point 1 is still valid, though
22:10:43  <andythenorth> let's see what cargo aging 0 does for lolz
22:10:49  <dwfreed> also it parsed some of the backtrace as emoji
22:10:59  <dwfreed> which is hilarious and annoying at the same time
22:13:38  <FLHerne> hah, now that's annoying enough to make me edit it
22:20:55  <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, removing the offsets also works. Hmm.
22:21:53  <FLHerne> peter1138: wtf is that code you quoted?!
22:22:06  <peter1138> Delightful isn't it?
22:22:31  <peter1138> if (id == SPR_IMG_BUY_LAND || id == SPR_IMG_BUOY || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; s->x_offs = 0; s->y_offs = 0; }
22:22:35  <peter1138> Also work s;)
22:25:09  <peter1138> Action 0x0A would be the correct way but would require... borrowing... sprite data.
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22:26:31  <andythenorth> if id in [list]
22:26:49  <andythenorth> { fixups[name] }
22:27:06  <peter1138> Of course it depends on the baseset too.
22:27:15  <andythenorth> what else are basesets for? :)
22:27:17  <peter1138> I assume OpenGFX doesn't have this issue.
22:27:49  <peter1138> Yeah, that's fine.
22:28:55  <peter1138> aBase has this issue, along with thousands of others
22:29:08  <andythenorth> ouch
22:29:11  <FLHerne> Which issue?
22:29:40  <peter1138>
22:29:43  <peter1138> ^
22:29:58  <peter1138>
22:30:05  <peter1138> ^ what that 1 line does
22:30:45  <peter1138> Eh, kinda. Some of the other padding changes are not that line.
22:31:41  <FLHerne> I see
22:32:40  <peter1138> I wonder if there's any other places...
22:33:23  <peter1138> Arguably the 4 landscape type selection buttons...
22:33:40  <andythenorth> fuck knows what messing with these payments will do to transfer legs
22:33:47  <peter1138> They have an offset to centre the sprites on the original buttons, but...
22:35:51  <peter1138> Ah yeah, that looks better
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22:37:21  <peter1138> TrueBrain, I heard you like multithreading... when you open the content window, there's a lot of *something* going on that causes everything to stutter for a bit, even if you close the window.
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22:37:57  <peter1138> I think it's might just be something silly like repeatedly sorting the list.
22:39:13  <peter1138> Transmitter icon, yeah
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22:42:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
22:43:42  <michi_cc> peter1138: Don't know where you arrived by now, but would it be an idea to "mirror" the offsets as padding on the other side?
22:44:27  <peter1138> michi_cc, that was actually my first attempt, and does work.
22:44:47  <peter1138> Setting offsets to 0 works for any size sprite though.
22:45:23  <peter1138> It may not be exactly the correct position though.
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22:48:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
22:49:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
22:50:11  <peter1138> Turn on security features. Get surprised by security features doing security things. ... Profit?
22:51:08  <FLHerne> peter1138: I think just close that?
22:51:17  <FLHerne> It's clearly not an OTTD problem
22:55:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
22:57:39  <andythenorth> this malus on suburban coaches is pretty evil
22:57:55  <andythenorth> 32 - 20, depending on train generation (accounts for speed)
22:58:01  <andythenorth> default is 185
22:58:10  <andythenorth> it's not mentioned in buy menu :D
22:58:40  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
23:00:55  <peter1138> That last point though
23:01:28  <peter1138> Why *doesn't* OpenTTD use %AppData%
23:01:53  <glx> because it's an old game
23:03:05  <dwfreed> hysterical raisins
23:03:08  <peter1138> Hmm, dates from Windows Vista.
23:03:08  <glx> but user not being able to write stuff in its document folder is weird
23:03:48  <glx> many games still use document folder for config and saves
23:04:10  <dwfreed> many games that post date even windows 10 use Documents instead of AppData
23:04:17  <andythenorth> since cargodist?
23:04:21  <andythenorth> should we?
23:04:26  <andythenorth> increase default cargo aging from 185?
23:04:35  <andythenorth> journeys are typically much longer
23:04:43  <andythenorth> we = me :P
23:04:51  <peter1138> Cargo doesn't age if it's sat on a platform.
23:05:00  <andythenorth> no
23:05:05  <andythenorth> but it might be on more legs
23:05:09  <peter1138> Maybe it should :p
23:05:10  <andythenorth> and stuff
23:05:13  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
23:05:24  <andythenorth> pls add newgrf property
23:05:27  <andythenorth> decay rate on platforms
23:05:31  <andythenorth> diamonds: 100%
23:05:34  <peter1138> newgrf puberty
23:05:39  <andythenorth> coming of age
23:05:44  <andythenorth> difficult teenage years
23:06:10  <peter1138> When was the first NewGRF?
23:06:14  <andythenorth> newships?
23:06:24  <peter1138> I'm assuming it predates OpenTTD.
23:06:27  <andythenorth> I have carefully tuned these cargo aging values to do _something_ for 6 generations of trains, but only point to point :P
23:06:30  <andythenorth> now I turn on cdist
23:06:35  <andythenorth> goes it throw out tuning?
23:07:42  <peter1138> Don't worry about it
23:09:40  <andythenorth> one train is losing money horribly :)
23:09:45  <andythenorth> the others profit profit
23:13:10  <peter1138> SPR_IMG_TRANSMITTER too
23:13:13  <peter1138> So
23:15:04  <peter1138> SPR_IMG_QUERY even. Hmm.
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23:25:02  <peter1138> Oof, list is getting longer.
23:27:50  <andythenorth> oof!
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23:27:53  <andythenorth> also lol
23:28:00  <andythenorth> in my cdist network test
23:28:48  <andythenorth> long leg of the route: the 'short route' coaches with aging malus outperform the long route coaches with standard aging
23:29:07  <andythenorth> short leg of the route: the long route coaches outperform the short route coaches
23:29:13  <andythenorth> "go figure"
23:29:23  <andythenorth> transfer stuff :P
23:37:40  <andythenorth> and if I change the trains on the long leg, the short route works as expected
23:37:58  <andythenorth> conclusion: I don't want 'andy tuned cargo aging for cdist' on any gravestone
23:41:40  <andythenorth> also sleeping
23:43:34  <peter1138> No.
23:44:27  <peter1138> So I need some way to pad or zero offsets only for these few sprites, and only for the original graphics (dos or windows I guess)
23:44:32  <peter1138> Hmmmm
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