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00:07:05 <TheArcaneBrony> nvm thats in the console 00:32:41 *** riis has joined #openttd 00:33:14 <riis> first time using irc :) 00:33:59 <riis> i saw a post on the subreddit where some dude was printing out their logs to a txt file, are there any hidden ways to only print data i want??? 01:03:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Adsadafafas opened issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup https://git.io/JYAbO 01:11:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 01:26:27 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:37:22 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 01:44:16 <TheArcaneBrony> with the entire map too big thing 01:44:26 <TheArcaneBrony> what if openttd implemented some chunk thing? 01:57:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine opened issue #8970: Windows https://git.io/JYxe3 02:34:31 *** didac has joined #openttd 02:45:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 02:50:54 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 04:00:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download https://git.io/JYxe3 04:08:30 <TheArcaneBrony> https://i.imgur.com/Sn1Zgoh.png 04:08:37 <TheArcaneBrony> is it jsut me or is this font extremely small? 04:21:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8971: "Save Game" text input can visibly appear truncated when font size increases https://git.io/JYxn2 04:26:29 *** Wuzzy has quit IRC 04:33:25 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:02:29 *** roadt_ has quit IRC 05:03:03 *** roadt_ has joined #openttd 05:10:15 <Elouin> Hi, is there a way to slow down game progression speed? I would like to have games running that run a bit slower and last a week or so. 05:12:07 <riis> i think jgrs patch pack has something like that, may be mistaken as i dont use it 05:21:31 <didac> I agree that the music stuff doesn´t seem proportiona to interface size 05:29:15 *** riis has quit IRC 05:39:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup https://git.io/JYAmd 05:44:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 05:45:04 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 05:50:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup https://git.io/JYAmd 05:57:49 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 05:58:02 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 06:10:09 *** didac has quit IRC 06:10:51 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:26:41 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 06:28:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:28:35 <andythenorth> so did we stay up too late? 06:34:18 * andythenorth interprets silences as 'yes' 06:34:42 <nielsm> I think I went to bed at an acceptable time, but did not sleep well 06:34:54 <nielsm> woke up too early and don't feel rested 07:01:18 * andythenorth needs more clothes, cold here 07:02:05 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8971 <-- can we just close this as "yes stop changing GUI sizes while other windows are open and expect everything to work" 07:02:28 <nielsm> or should we start just closing all open windows when you change one of those? 07:03:15 <nielsm> (probably special casing the options window, main menu, toolbar, statusbar, and main game viewport) 07:03:36 <andythenorth> well if we had a way to remember windows and reopen them... 07:07:56 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 07:08:09 <andythenorth> hmm fingers too cold to type :) 07:08:14 <andythenorth> it's only April, so wtf :) 07:08:38 <nielsm> could also add it to known-bugs.txt 07:10:26 <andythenorth> plausible 07:10:39 <andythenorth> along with "FIRS breaks default vehicles" :) 07:11:18 *** EER has joined #openttd 07:18:51 <LordAro> nielsm: true, but redrawing the text string after resizing the window should be feasible... 07:23:51 <nielsm> more problematic, it seems possibly a crash can occur when you change font size due to something with sprite cache 07:29:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup https://git.io/JYAmd 07:34:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup https://git.io/JYAbO 07:36:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup https://git.io/JYAbO 07:36:37 *** canadaj has joined #openttd 07:38:07 <canadaj> I am running a Linux server using the -c option to specify a config file. Every time I modify the config and restart the service (systemd), it overwrites my changes. How do I get my server to accept a new config? 07:38:10 <TrueBrain> I see andythenorth learnt to be passive agressive :D 07:38:29 <andythenorth> it's just aggressive no? 07:38:30 <andythenorth> :P 07:38:31 <nielsm> canadaj: there is an -x option that prevents the game from writing back tot he config 07:39:06 * andythenorth always has to look up what 'passive aggressive' actually means 07:39:50 <LordAro> i'm wondering if these crashes are down to a broken opengl setup 07:40:30 <TrueBrain> it does look like bootstrap doesn't validate if there is a valid video driver :P 07:40:57 <TrueBrain> but that only explains 1 of the 2 07:41:08 <canadaj> @neilsm absolutely blessed thank you 07:41:44 <peter1138> Gah, cold fingers 07:42:11 <peter1138> nielsm, i do actually have a patch for scaling... 07:42:42 <andythenorth> why are my fingers cold though 07:42:44 <andythenorth> heating is on 07:42:49 <andythenorth> wearing many layers of clothers 07:42:57 <peter1138> Poor circulation 07:42:58 <andythenorth> clothers ! warmer than clothes 07:43:05 <TrueBrain> more sleep also helps 07:43:33 <andythenorth> screw sleep, it's for dead people 07:43:47 <TrueBrain> psst, dead people don't "sleep" 07:43:52 <andythenorth> I will live life to the fullest by....hitting refresh on YouTube 07:43:57 <andythenorth> until late at night 07:44:08 <TrueBrain> and regretting that in the morning? 07:44:26 <TrueBrain> why are you using a proprietary platform to watch videos? 07:44:27 <TrueBrain> tssk 07:44:45 <andythenorth> I have no words 07:44:49 <peter1138> Must ignore messages on Teams... 07:44:57 <andythenorth> Must ignore Teams 07:45:42 <andythenorth> My lovely wife, light of my life, late into the night: "Why do they keep messaging me so late? [replies with message]" 07:46:32 <peter1138> apparently "fill in this field if different from field above" is too confusing 07:46:39 <andythenorth> this was extremely unexpected https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96yhdnhPxAw 07:46:47 <peter1138> I didn't ignore Teams :( 07:48:35 <peter1138> How does that even... they magically pop out... :/ 07:48:55 <nielsm> the actual problem is that Windows::ReInit() does not actually re-init the window 07:49:08 <nielsm> it kind of assumes most things don't need to change size or position 07:49:24 <peter1138> Like I say, I have a patch :p 07:49:31 <nielsm> and the class is called Window 07:50:02 <nielsm> does it also fix that the landscape selection buttons on the main menu look bad after changing GUI scale? 07:50:14 <peter1138> Yes 07:50:24 <nielsm> well what are you waiting for then 07:50:45 <peter1138> Still working on it. 07:50:51 <TrueBrain> name any issue, and peter1138 has a patch for it .. patches he has plenty :D 07:51:04 <peter1138> This one is recent though :) 07:57:32 <andythenorth> I had a patch once 07:57:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 07:59:48 <peter1138> Highly advanced patch, streaming on Discord 08:00:08 <peter1138> Oh, 9am. Never mind. 08:01:57 <TrueBrain> you now expect nielsm to look on your Discord stream to type over your patch? :P 08:01:59 <TrueBrain> :D 08:02:20 <peter1138> Collaborative development 08:02:25 <TrueBrain> wuth?! NO! 08:02:27 <TrueBrain> we don't do that here peter1138 08:02:29 <TrueBrain> :P 08:02:37 <TrueBrain> sorry, it is one of these days 08:02:50 <TrueBrain> I started with a passive aggressive forums post of andythenorth .. I cannot shake that feeling now :) 08:03:19 <andythenorth> I started with an LC post about Horse 08:03:24 <peter1138> Actually there is some collaborative plugin for VS Code. I wonder what it actually does. 08:03:32 <andythenorth> 'probably fine, everyone misunderstands each other' 08:03:33 <peter1138> forums post eh? 08:03:36 <peter1138> Dare I look? 08:03:46 <andythenorth> it's a nothing 08:03:47 <TrueBrain> peter1138: they work really well, just ... writing code with someone else has always been painful to me :P 08:03:52 <andythenorth> this is fun :) https://steamcommunity.com/app/1536610/discussions/0/3171072251342172865/ 08:04:00 <TrueBrain> had to train a lot of people with pair programming 08:04:01 <andythenorth> if anyone knows the answer, pls send me email 08:04:02 <TrueBrain> which is fine on its own 08:04:11 <TrueBrain> but ... you get bored REAL quick, looking at someone else typing :P 08:04:30 <peter1138> Is that what it actually is? Sheesh 08:04:43 <andythenorth> my attention span would never survive pair programming, it needs people who aren't me 08:05:17 <peter1138> What open streaming platforms are there, anyway? 08:05:38 <andythenorth> THERE ARE MANY VERY POPULAR ONES 08:05:55 <LordAro> i only know of jitsi, but that's a conferencing/video call thing, not streaming 08:06:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I replied! 08:06:04 <LordAro> and doesn't scale well 08:06:14 <andythenorth> TrueBrain nooooooo :( 08:06:20 <peter1138> Yes, that's video calling. 08:06:49 <peter1138> And sucks all the power out of my 3.2 GHz Quad Core Xeon handling 2 streams... 08:07:16 <peter1138> (I guess it may have been transcoding but I don't know why) 08:07:52 <andythenorth> oof these freedom + privacy people 08:08:11 <andythenorth> I mean...I don't like the modern web business model much 08:08:25 <andythenorth> but don't they know...the simulation we're living in already tracks everything about us anyway 08:08:45 <andythenorth> I suppose they're trying to stay ahead of the other simulated characters 08:08:49 <peter1138> nielsm, anyway, may patch has unintentional side effects that, er, actually improve things imho, but may not be expected. And other bits still don't work right. 08:09:49 <peter1138> (Improves things outside the scope of changing scale) 08:10:03 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 08:10:48 <andythenorth> also this is one of the best short stories I've read ever ever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Exactitude_in_Science 08:16:59 <TrueBrain> the network code has Close and CloseConnection .. and poorly documented how they differ 08:17:04 <TrueBrain> fun :D 08:18:06 <TrueBrain> Close calls CloseConnection, but Close is protected and CloseConnection is public 08:18:08 <TrueBrain> now I am really confused :P 08:20:53 *** glx has joined #openttd 08:20:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 08:29:37 <Timberwolf> peter1138: One of the AIs in my game decided to convert its narrow gauge rails to 4th rail, happily stranding all its trains. 08:30:42 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:34:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] adamcirillo commented on issue #8963: Black Bars during gameplay https://git.io/JYFCT 08:38:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Vagooba opened issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request https://git.io/JYxdB 08:45:31 <peter1138> Vsync = black bars... very strange. 08:46:04 <FLHerne> They're not even regular, across scan-lines or anything... 08:46:26 <FLHerne> Nor even solid black 08:46:32 <peter1138> Timberwolf, I don't remember if there's anything in the railtype spec or AI APIs for helping to choose which to use 08:48:06 <Timberwolf> A lot of the AIs seem to bias heavily to buying the cheapest engine, which gives weird results if you have a set full of jokers and strange options. 08:48:47 <Timberwolf> I've noticed a few figure out that giant horse stacks are the way forward at the start of the game. 08:49:22 <FLHerne> ISTR that UKRS2 removed the brake-van restriction for AI players 08:49:57 <FLHerne> otherwise they just couldn't work without special code 08:49:58 <Timberwolf> Yes, and then CivilAI builds them :) 08:50:40 <andythenorth> "CivilAI the best AI" 08:50:46 <andythenorth> only one I use anyway 08:50:47 <Timberwolf> RailwAI is really impressive, bar a couple of crashes in later play. 08:50:51 <andythenorth> not sure that means 'best' 08:51:14 <Timberwolf> I particularly like the way it petulantly reroutes its roads and builds bridges whenever you create a level crossing. 08:52:16 *** roadt__ has joined #openttd 08:52:33 * andythenorth tries RailwAI 08:53:05 <LordAro> trAIns has always been the most technically impressive, to me 08:53:05 <andythenorth> oh it's building a salt line 08:53:09 <LordAro> but it is real slow 08:53:13 <andythenorth> wonder how it knows where to start in Steeltown 08:53:19 <andythenorth> Salt is one of the starting chains 08:53:44 <andythenorth> it's chosen narrow gauge 08:53:56 <andythenorth> oh it builds alternate wagons, not just cloning trains blindly 08:56:09 <andythenorth> I like AIs, they don't offer unsolicited feedback on my grfs :) 08:56:22 <Timberwolf> I haven't played trAINs in a while, I remember it looking promising in the early versions. 08:56:32 <Timberwolf> That's the one which tries to network like a human player, isn't it? 08:57:17 <LordAro> yeah 08:57:24 <LordAro> some guy's masters project 08:57:25 <andythenorth> RailwAI likes boats 08:58:26 <andythenorth> hmm doesn't understand freight engines vs. express 08:59:09 *** roadt_ has quit IRC 08:59:27 <andythenorth> this is fun 08:59:34 <andythenorth> AI has no concept of mainlines 08:59:48 <andythenorth> so it's replicating routes for an industry with 2 output cargos 09:00:25 <peter1138> That's how some people play 09:00:35 <andythenorth> very wise 09:00:39 <andythenorth> the best way 09:01:09 <andythenorth> supplies it doesn't understand, maybe I should deliver some for it 09:03:02 <andythenorth> it has won Train Whack! though :) https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1780327/113999040-8f5de380-9851-11eb-9343-7fb0e3630aae.png 09:03:08 <andythenorth> excellent use of engines there 09:04:37 <andythenorth> this is also excellent, train choices for same route https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1780327/113999243-c502cc80-9851-11eb-8c75-42d84de38ab9.png 09:04:43 *** jay has joined #openttd 09:04:47 <andythenorth> AI likes pointy trains? 09:05:38 *** jay has quit IRC 09:06:29 <TrueBrain> I have another idea for NAT punching .. make a raw socket and send raw TCP packets ourselves, so we can avoid sending the FIN and RST :P 09:06:36 <TrueBrain> that might just be a bit .... too much :D 09:06:49 *** Idk_a_good_name has joined #openttd 09:08:32 <peter1138> user-space TCP eh? 09:08:49 <TrueBrain> won't be the first time I do that :D 09:08:52 <peter1138> Might as well just switch to UDP :-) 09:08:56 <TrueBrain> but yes, that 09:09:07 <TrueBrain> we really should switch to UDP honestly 09:09:12 <nielsm> I don't think most OS will allow that either, without being root/admin 09:09:15 <TrueBrain> makes a lot of things a lot easier 09:09:33 <TrueBrain> nielsm: you might be surprised how much you can do (on Linux anyway) from userspace 09:09:37 <LordAro> ew 09:09:38 <TrueBrain> there are some limits 09:09:43 <peter1138> Packet loss and out of order packets is not something the protocol would like, I think. 09:09:52 <TrueBrain> but really: UDP :) 09:10:12 <TrueBrain> well, there is this ValveSoftware network library 09:10:19 <TrueBrain> that uses UDP with a TCP-like behaviour 09:10:29 <TrueBrain> reordering, fragmentation, handles it all 09:10:33 <peter1138> Is it GPL? 09:10:41 <nielsm> MIT I think 09:10:50 <TrueBrain> BSD-3 09:10:54 <peter1138> GPL-compatible, rather. 09:10:54 <TrueBrain> so we can include it 09:10:57 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets 09:11:02 *** Idk_a_good_name has left #openttd 09:11:23 <FLHerne> But then you're Making The Game Dependent On Steam or something :-/ 09:11:41 <TrueBrain> OMG VALVE MADE GOOD SOFTWARE IIEUWWWWWW 09:11:52 <TrueBrain> please don't tell those people zstd is created by Facebook 09:11:57 <TrueBrain> it might be stealing our data (?!?!?!) 09:12:12 <andythenorth> it what now? 09:12:16 <andythenorth> also where is the forum reply 09:12:21 * andythenorth back to making trains 09:12:26 <FLHerne> Between that and GitHub/MS, OpenTTD is enslaved to all of the evil megacorps 09:12:37 <TrueBrain> I know right!! 09:12:43 <TrueBrain> and we also use AWS 09:12:45 <TrueBrain> omg 09:12:46 <TrueBrain> sellouts 09:12:59 <TrueBrain> where does Google impact us .. euuh ... 09:13:06 <TrueBrain> there has to be a link 09:13:07 <TrueBrain> let me find it :D 09:13:18 <FLHerne> Does the forum still have Google ads? 09:13:20 <peter1138> proprietory platforms :( 09:14:04 <andythenorth> we tried to use google for wiki search 09:14:04 <TrueBrain> its funny how some people and organizations expect that everything should be free (as defined by FSF) 09:14:15 <TrueBrain> like how realistic is that in a world where you have to pay for your groceries 09:14:20 <andythenorth> or 'unrealistic lunatics' 09:14:22 <andythenorth> as I call them 09:14:46 <TrueBrain> I am sure I also once had the illusion that would be possible 09:15:02 <TrueBrain> then I grew up :P 09:15:05 <andythenorth> it's a view 09:15:19 <LordAro> it's cute 09:15:26 <LordAro> being that idealistic/optimistic about the world 09:15:36 <FLHerne> Well, people used to have that opinion of software 09:15:38 <andythenorth> a tycoon game about cut-throat capitalism should be free 09:15:43 <andythenorth> I guess that's fine 09:15:46 <TrueBrain> LordAro: cute is the right word, yes :) 09:15:58 <andythenorth> I mean I play Warcraft 1, but I don't believe in slaughtering villages 09:17:36 <TrueBrain> anyway, back to writing lobby code 09:19:51 * andythenorth back to trains 09:34:52 *** jjavaholic has joined #openttd 09:34:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates https://git.io/JYiif 09:40:48 <peter1138> How slow is slow? 09:41:34 <andythenorth> this one goes to 11 https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1780327/114004867-f6ca6200-9856-11eb-934f-0722bbb81d54.png 09:41:34 <peter1138> I'm down to 6.5 fps and don't appear to have this. 09:43:49 <andythenorth> oh it has now scrapped that train, disappointing 09:45:07 <nielsm> peter1138: I'm not sure, but it has to do with timing I think, and a low framerate only makes it more likely to hit the right timing 09:45:41 <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Are they relatively cheap in respect to tractive effort and horsepower? 09:45:52 <andythenorth> probably yes 09:46:01 <nielsm> I can reproduce it just by starting 1.11.0, place my fingers on home row, and mash keys as fast as I can 09:46:05 <Timberwolf> I think RailwAI just looks for the most cost-effective way to achieve a certain TE and HP target for a given speed. 09:46:32 <andythenorth> hmm the maths would say they're not great for HP and TE over cost 09:46:41 <andythenorth> oh they're cheap to buy 09:46:50 <andythenorth> very cheap 09:47:37 <TrueBrain> nielsm: you might want to add what OS etc in your ticket btw; I assume Win10, but that is an assumption :D 09:47:48 <TrueBrain> and you say "Win32 video driver", do you mean win32 or win32-opengl ? 09:47:57 <andythenorth> oh the silent 1.11 crash on mac :) 09:48:00 <andythenorth> 'surprise' 09:48:07 <andythenorth> well that will be fixed soon eh 09:48:30 <TrueBrain> Win10 + Steam OpenTTD + win32-opengl works fine for me at least, no matter how hard I type :P 09:49:50 <TrueBrain> win32, still fine 09:50:57 <nielsm> also reproducing with win32 non-opengl 09:52:12 <glx> TrueBrain: C:\Users\Loïc> vcpkg search gamenetworkingsocket 09:52:13 <glx> gamenetworkingsoc... 2020-09-02 GameNetworkingSockets is a basic transport layer for games. 09:52:26 <TrueBrain> glx: nice :D 09:54:15 <glx> same here, can't reproduce duplicate input, even at 3fps 09:55:43 <LordAro> nielsm: something strange with the polling rate of your keyboard, perhaps? 09:56:20 <nielsm> ohhh I figured it out 09:56:25 <nielsm> it's the Japanese IME 09:56:40 <LordAro> lolwut 09:56:40 <nielsm> if I change to a different input it doesn't happen 09:57:04 <nielsm> other programs don't get this misinput from the IME either though 09:58:24 <LordAro> #7810 & #8138 appear in searches for IME 09:58:34 <LordAro> plausibly related? 09:58:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates https://git.io/JYiif 09:59:38 <nielsm> 8138 could be, but 7810 seems to be about non-Windows platforms 09:59:52 <nielsm> the keyboard input is handled in video driver so it's probably a problem specific to win32_v 10:00:06 <LordAro> mm 10:10:01 <peter1138> Bread roll out of freezer is... not edible. 10:10:18 <peter1138> I'm on Windows too. 10:10:22 <glx> and very cold ;) 10:10:27 <TrueBrain> freshly baked bread with the right mixture of ingredients on the other hand .. 10:10:36 <TrueBrain> took a while to get the mixture right .. lot of wasted bread :P 10:11:00 <peter1138> glx, actually it wasn't that cold, which is telling. I think it means not a lot of water content left in it... 10:11:15 <peter1138> TrueBrain, okay, I'll be around in a moment. 10:11:16 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 10:11:16 *** glx is now known as Guest876 10:11:16 *** glx_ is now known as glx 10:11:25 <TrueBrain> peter1138: would be scary if you really did :P 10:11:26 <peter1138> Ah shit, foiled by Brexit and pandemic :( 10:11:35 <TrueBrain> :D 10:11:41 <TrueBrain> both are an equally big problem, yes :P 10:11:46 <TrueBrain> which is kinda ironic 10:18:23 *** Guest876 has quit IRC 10:25:13 <peter1138> Hmm, Karoo 2 looks nice but damn, expensive. 10:25:37 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 10:25:37 *** glx is now known as Guest877 10:25:37 *** glx_ is now known as glx 10:26:40 <peter1138> Although I'm not sure running on Android is ideal for a specialized device. 10:31:59 *** Guest877 has quit IRC 10:33:09 *** canadaj has quit IRC 10:36:22 <Timberwolf> Some of the non-Android systems have the same kind of multitasking issues. 10:37:20 <Timberwolf> My car gets very laggy in responding to the menu controller if I plug a USB drive with a lot of music files into the centre console. 10:37:32 * andythenorth reading steam 10:37:41 <andythenorth> lol the cursor key behaviour in newgrf window :) 10:38:11 <andythenorth> 'yes you can scroll the list on up/down cursors' 10:38:21 <andythenorth> 'but you probably also wanted to move the map at the same time, right?' 10:38:52 <Timberwolf> I get that with station filters. 10:39:05 <Timberwolf> I have typed 'aaaaaaaa' or 'rrrrrr' into the station search many a time. 10:40:16 <andythenorth> hmm what am I supposed to be doing? 10:40:20 <andythenorth> something about pax coaches 10:40:25 * andythenorth lost all sense of purpose 10:53:02 <peter1138> Okay, should I order some lunch via Just-Eat? 10:53:27 <peter1138> Apparently I can order from Greggs. 10:54:17 <peter1138> But if I'm going to order, I might as well order from the local brewery, am I right? 10:54:22 <peter1138> Liquid lunches... 10:54:27 <andythenorth> delivered Greggs 10:54:30 <andythenorth> peak civilisation 10:54:56 <peter1138> I don't like Greggs at the best of times, let alone soggy greasy cold deliveries. 10:55:36 <peter1138> Footlong Subway? 10:56:00 <reldred> I've had dinner already but I'm still hungry 10:56:00 <peter1138> I have some part-baked petite-pains, I think that should suffice :) 11:00:17 <peter1138> Dessert time? 11:01:50 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 11:01:50 *** glx is now known as Guest880 11:01:51 *** glx_ is now known as glx 11:04:32 <reldred> Mmmm. Desserts. 11:04:39 <reldred> Cheeseburger is a dessert? 11:06:21 <LordAro> there's probably enough sugar in it 11:08:13 *** Guest880 has quit IRC 11:13:45 <peter1138> Okay, I found some bacon to go with my petit pains. 11:13:54 <andythenorth> profit 11:13:55 <andythenorth> cashback 11:14:01 <peter1138> There is one egg as well, but as it's BBE early March, I might give that a miss. 11:15:04 <peter1138> I'd completely forgotten the days of requesting cashback from shops. 11:26:50 <andythenorth> eggs float if they've gone wrong 11:27:00 <andythenorth> otherwise fine 11:27:27 <TrueBrain> or hatch a chicken 11:27:31 <TrueBrain> then it went wrong too 11:27:36 <andythenorth> hmm PassengerRailcarTrailerCarConsist and PassengerRailbusTrailerCarConsist 11:27:43 <andythenorth> that's not going to catch me out in future 11:27:48 <andythenorth> they are visually same length names 11:31:42 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 11:31:42 *** glx is now known as Guest882 11:31:42 *** glx_ is now known as glx 11:37:14 *** Venemo has joined #openttd 11:38:08 *** Guest882 has quit IRC 11:43:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another https://git.io/JtJxc 11:45:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another https://git.io/JYpZS 11:49:24 <peter1138> andythenorth, I know, but depending on what you're doing with it a fresh egg can be preferable. 11:49:36 <andythenorth> fair 11:50:10 <peter1138> Worst part is when you think an egg is okay, test it by the floating method, and then it's gone off anyway. Into the bowl of ingredients you've already mixed up. 11:50:34 <peter1138> Only had that happen once, since then I always crack it into a separate jug first. 11:51:11 *** jjavaholic has quit IRC 11:51:16 <peter1138> I was doing egg-fried-rice. Has to bin all the rice, and the bacon bits and stuff that was in it. And it was the last rice I had. 11:52:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another https://git.io/JtJxc 11:52:44 <Xaroth> peter1138: the uncle roger style egg fry rice? 12:18:56 <andythenorth> ha I need to remember to close openttd train windows when the game is paused and in background 12:19:05 <andythenorth> uses 100% of one core 12:20:50 <andythenorth> or it's coincidence 12:32:18 <peter1138> I don't have an Uncle Roger, so... 12:32:43 <peter1138> 100% while paused seems like you're doing something wrong. 12:34:18 <andythenorth> I _think_ it causes the mac to have keep drawing the window 12:34:30 <andythenorth> openttd is running at about 1.5% of a core 12:34:33 <peter1138> Even a 1024x1024 map is too big, why do people ever want to play on 4069x4069. "Bigger is better"? 12:34:46 <andythenorth> but if I open some game windows (trains), mac windowserver process spikes to 100% of a core 12:35:30 <Timberwolf> Originally I thought it was to play with very sparse maps (extreme low density) or interesting geography like islands or impenetrable mountain ranges. 12:35:48 <peter1138> If the game is paused then there's no reason it'll be trying to redraw by itself. 12:36:10 <Timberwolf> But my impression is I'm the outlier there, and most people seem to generate their 4096*4096 maps at fairly standard density and terrain settings. 12:36:10 <peter1138> I was going for sparse with this 1024x1024 map, but it's still got too much in it. 12:36:18 <peter1138> Yeah 12:36:21 <andythenorth> this paused effect is actually reproducible, I hoped I was hallucinating 12:36:39 <andythenorth> or that it was just Chrome doing whatever Chrome does to use all my cores to render a simple webpage 12:37:32 <peter1138> Another problem with 1024x1024 sparse maps and using all-Timberwolf sets, there's no ships ;( 12:37:38 <andythenorth> there are no dirty blocks drawn, can't be OpenTTD 12:37:41 <andythenorth> let's blame Chrome 12:38:03 <peter1138> Yes. Let's. 12:38:22 <andythenorth> remember when Chrome was good? 12:38:28 <Timberwolf> Heh. I do wonder whether I should do boats. 12:38:31 <peter1138> When it first arrived, yes. 12:38:41 <andythenorth> please do boats 12:38:51 <andythenorth> if anything demands voxels, it's boats 12:38:51 <Timberwolf> It feels like the kind of thankless drudgery I'd enjoy. 12:38:57 <andythenorth> they're so frigging hard to do in pixels 12:39:16 <andythenorth> I have spent so long drawing bow and stern shapes :( 12:39:29 <peter1138> Just take someone else's GPL ships, do a little tweak and say it's yours. 12:39:52 <andythenorth> voxel-ise Unsinkable Sam 12:40:03 <peter1138> So the thing with 2x gui is that 2x sprites != 2x gui. 12:40:14 <andythenorth> or you could have 3 goes at figuring out capacity and speed and crap like I did :P 12:40:18 <peter1138> Proportions become all wonky. 12:40:26 <peter1138> Voxels! 12:40:31 <peter1138> What was it? Cubicles? 12:40:34 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 12:40:37 <Timberwolf> I haven't tried Sam yet, what did you change from SQUID? 12:40:42 <andythenorth> threw it all away 12:40:44 <Timberwolf> (capacity and speed wise) 12:40:48 <supermop_Home_> 4 letters 12:40:58 <andythenorth> can't remember but Squid is just weird 12:41:10 <andythenorth> it fell in the "Pikka is bored of maximalism, let's try minimalism" hole 12:41:45 <Timberwolf> I like Squid, it makes ships unexpectedly powerful. 12:42:10 <andythenorth> Sam treats ships like Horse wagons 12:42:18 <andythenorth> gives a full set of sizes and types 12:42:23 <andythenorth> buy menu can go do one :P 12:42:53 <Timberwolf> First discovered this playing a multiplayer game with a relative newbie, who went "I'll build some ships, they look simple" and ended up one of the most profitable companies on the server. 12:43:26 <andythenorth> oh I standardised all the hulls as well, and composited the deck/hold stuff onto them 12:43:28 <andythenorth> https://grf.farm/unsinkable-sam/preview-5/html/ships.html 12:43:44 <andythenorth> there are more than those 5, but those are the ones with all angles drawn 12:44:55 <andythenorth> but voxel hull shapes! 12:45:34 <Timberwolf> They're just as annoying to do as pixels, although you do have options to scale and composite. 12:46:08 <andythenorth> no angles though? just one model? 12:46:13 <Timberwolf> Yes, that helps. 12:46:19 <Timberwolf> You only have to get it right once. 12:46:36 <peter1138> Hmm, that explains a few things, TTD didn't move button images by +1+1 pixels when they are pressed... 12:47:14 <andythenorth> which looks better? 12:48:09 <Timberwolf> You forget how little TTD actually had. 12:48:33 <Timberwolf> I fired it up the other day for something and was like, "wait, Clone Vehicle is something we introduced?" 12:50:03 <Timberwolf> I think that's one of those Sawyerisms though, I get the feeling he considers the need to micromanage replacement, cloning and upgrading vehicles to be part of the game. 12:51:32 <peter1138> It is 12:51:46 <peter1138> Same with convert track, mentioned in the livestream. 12:52:10 <Timberwolf> Cht: railtype 0 2 12:52:14 <Timberwolf> Or whatever it was. 12:52:14 <peter1138> Let's add options to turn off these things! 12:52:28 <peter1138> Is there still the option to turn off building on slopes? 12:52:42 <peter1138> I never really played TTDPatch. 12:53:06 <peter1138> Only ever loaded it to compare how NewStations behaved, during my many rewrites. 12:53:16 <Timberwolf> There's the livestream holy grail, Chris Sawyer to explain what he does and doesn't like about the gameplay changes, followed by Simon Foster critiquing newgrfs and OpenGFX. :) 12:55:04 <peter1138> I think it best not to go there. 12:56:13 <reldred> From what I heard Chris Sawyer *hated* TTDPatch. 12:56:47 <reldred> Very oldschool kinda guy. A lot of people didn't like the modding scene back in the day. 12:57:16 <Timberwolf> I recall hearing something along the lines of, "a game as released represents a particular team's vision, and it's not for other people to go and reinterpret that vision in a way the original team never intended" 12:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been their opinion, but that was never how it worked. 12:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> art is generally in a bad shape if it's treated as "this is final, and never to be modified/reinterpreted/whatever again" 13:00:10 <Timberwolf> Quite. 13:00:35 <reldred> Yeah, he was apparently a bit of an odd cat 13:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i won't judge that, since it's all hearsay 13:01:35 <LordAro> there's never been a definitive statement, afaik 13:01:58 <LordAro> just summaries of spokespeople's statements 13:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> also, pretty much everyone in here is an "odd cat" :) 13:05:39 <Timberwolf> I think some of it is rumours in the absence of lots of public statements, newsgroup posts, social media and whatever. 13:06:20 <Timberwolf> The few interviews and videos that have emerged over the years don't make him come across as particularly odd, within the bounds of "old school 1980s assembly developer" 13:12:30 <andythenorth> the video showing the prototype TTO is good 13:12:34 <andythenorth> Youtube 13:13:19 <andythenorth> reminds me of me somewhat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU73g72NTHc 13:13:55 <andythenorth> I have no rollercoaster obsession 13:16:35 <andythenorth> meh can't find the video 13:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: exactly 13:26:15 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:34:47 <peter1138> Hmm, so padding is always external to the widget. Internal padding might be useful to have. 13:34:56 <andythenorth> goes it hide block signals from Steam client? 13:34:57 <andythenorth> :P 13:35:21 <peter1138> Hide teaching people to learn block/pre-signals first because... why would you do that? 13:35:35 <andythenorth> isn't 13:35:36 <andythenorth> it 13:35:43 <andythenorth> also why do people tell so many lies on the internet? 13:35:47 <andythenorth> shocking :) 13:35:48 <andythenorth> https://steamcommunity.com/app/1536610/discussions/0/3171072251343706956/#c3171072251343995306 13:35:55 <andythenorth> this lie about distance 13:36:08 <andythenorth> what DP's graphs show is that you have to be playing a very big map for that to be true 13:36:27 <andythenorth> there is some thing about overhead on loading times 13:36:48 <peter1138> What are they not promising?> 13:36:59 <andythenorth> I don't know 13:37:01 <andythenorth> marriage? 13:37:10 <peter1138> Doesn't everyone play on 4069x4096 because why not? 13:37:19 <andythenorth> for shame 13:37:24 <andythenorth> I use 32x32 only 13:37:29 <peter1138> Such gatekeeping by me here. 13:37:32 <peter1138> 2^32 13:37:35 <andythenorth> can we make a 1 tile map? 13:37:43 <peter1138> Yes, but it's a void tile. 13:37:48 <andythenorth> no 13:37:50 <andythenorth> transmitter 13:38:27 <peter1138> Go back to basics. Your map is 256x256 and you have no choice in the matter. 13:38:49 <andythenorth> was original 256? 13:38:57 <Timberwolf> Yep. 13:39:07 <LordAro> with coast edges 13:39:07 <peter1138> Or was it 255. 13:39:32 <peter1138> I think we have void tiles on all sides now, so a map is actually -2 13:40:14 <LordAro> there's some weird difference if you have the coast edges on 13:40:25 <LordAro> like the top edges aren't void, but sea 13:40:56 <andythenorth> Horse 100% 13:41:00 <andythenorth> so I should release it or something? 13:41:12 <andythenorth> oh a bit of yak-shaving first 13:41:26 <LordAro> paint the yak blue 13:41:30 <peter1138> I'm not sure that difference is there any more. 13:41:36 <peter1138> If it is, it shouldn't be. 13:41:57 <peter1138> I remember there were some... interesting interactions that changed depending on that settings. 13:42:03 <peter1138> Of course, old maps... 13:43:17 <LordAro> i think that was the problem 13:43:26 <LordAro> old maps are 255, new maps are 254 13:43:27 <LordAro> or something 13:43:46 <LordAro> 255, but with 253 usable* 13:44:04 <andythenorth> 3CC yak 13:44:08 <andythenorth> 3rd company colour when? :) 13:44:14 <andythenorth> 'not now andythenorth that's when' 13:44:18 <Timberwolf> Since tiles are the true economic unit, has the game been made easier or harder? 13:44:22 <andythenorth> be good though wouldn't it, 3CC 13:44:25 <andythenorth> or just wagon colours 13:44:47 <peter1138> Imagine choosing 3 different colours and it make barely a difference. 13:44:49 <peter1138> *making 13:44:59 <andythenorth> pink, cream, red 13:45:04 <andythenorth> blue, dark blue, light blue 13:45:28 <andythenorth> or if we had 'livery' sprite choosing crap for the realism crowd, I could abuse that for wagon colours 13:45:34 <andythenorth> or I could use cargo subtypes 13:45:39 <andythenorth> it's the fashionable solution 13:45:52 <andythenorth> Steel (Light Blue) 13:45:59 <peter1138> 1 engine-id per livery 13:46:01 <andythenorth> Cows (Green) 13:46:07 <andythenorth> peter1138 ^^ I tried that 13:46:12 <andythenorth> Horse branch for it 13:46:27 <andythenorth> it caused some seriously out of proportion reaction on Discord 13:46:34 <andythenorth> also looks weird, having repeated vehicle names 13:47:19 <andythenorth> 'tried that in newgrf' might be my version of 'got a patch for that' 13:48:58 <peter1138> "Hmm" 13:50:08 <andythenorth> all the liveries I drew :D https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/graphics/pony/resilient.png 13:50:20 <andythenorth> but you get a choice of 2, by setting weird company colour combos 13:52:22 <dihedral> hey hey 13:56:06 <peter1138> I forgot you could show station coverage for a town. 13:58:07 <peter1138> https://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/splitticks3.png < forgot about that work, too. 13:58:24 <peter1138> Multithreaded tick handler when? 13:58:52 <peter1138> Semi-joking. 13:59:16 <peter1138> I don't think it's all that common for games to have such a spread between vehicle types. 14:00:35 *** riis has joined #openttd 14:07:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel https://git.io/JYpXL 14:10:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel https://git.io/JYpXL 14:16:38 <peter1138> Urgh, why am I so tired 14:16:45 <andythenorth> long covid 14:16:47 <andythenorth> lack of coffee 14:16:51 <andythenorth> lack of sleep 14:17:02 <andythenorth> lack of amphetamine sulphate 14:17:04 <andythenorth> all of the above? 14:17:16 <andythenorth> https://theqwietmuse.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/img_0191.jpg 14:17:32 * andythenorth "does not encourage drug use" 14:18:41 <reldred> I do! 14:18:44 <peter1138> Lack of sleep and exercise I think. 14:19:31 <peter1138> I wouldn't know where to get amphetamine. 14:19:39 <peter1138> Is it from an amphitheatre? 14:19:49 <andythenorth> well if you do find any, stay socially distanced when collecting 14:20:00 <andythenorth> meanwhile my trains with restaurant cars....make money 14:20:09 <peter1138> Good. 14:20:10 <andythenorth> so do the ones....without restaurant cars 14:20:12 <andythenorth> go figure 14:20:17 <peter1138> Ship it. 14:20:24 <andythenorth> should I do another half-day play-testing of tedious fake routes? 14:20:32 <andythenorth> guess how much that appeals? 14:20:46 <FLHerne> 'beta' 14:20:52 <peter1138> No, publish it and let your players do that. 14:20:56 <FLHerne> let other people do the playtesting, then sort by complaints 14:21:03 <andythenorth> I just do a bit more adding buy menu text 14:21:13 <peter1138> Sa.. can up with with some tideous graphs and results that don't mean anything. 14:21:18 <andythenorth> the 'if' statements for Horse buy menu are already lolz 14:21:25 <andythenorth> let's add to that 14:21:29 <andythenorth> maybe they'll implode 14:22:02 <peter1138> I might've had covid over xmas but I had two negative tests. But then the tests could easily be wrong... 14:22:07 <FLHerne> Yeah, you haven't caught up with CETS until it literally causes NMLC to crash through sheer size 14:22:09 <peter1138> So maybe it is long-covid. 14:22:51 <peter1138> Long-laziness more like. 14:23:18 <peter1138> Piss of Nest, I didn't ask for you to turn the heating off. 14:28:15 *** Samu has joined #openttd 14:34:34 <peter1138> +f 14:35:32 <peter1138> I also think I'm going a bit doolally. Making errors in sentences and not noticing until later. 14:39:59 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:40:16 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 14:40:42 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 14:41:29 <andythenorth> I've been doing that for....years 14:41:38 <andythenorth> I look at old stuff I wrote, it's garbage 14:43:13 <andythenorth> so redstone for OpenTTD then? 14:43:16 <andythenorth> signals 14:43:18 <andythenorth> LED counters 14:43:33 <andythenorth> industry shenanigans 14:45:20 <peter1138> I wanted to at one point but realised that it's already there in JGR so why. 14:48:30 <andythenorth> fair point 14:57:30 <andythenorth> hmm 14:57:42 <andythenorth> goes it "Role: foo" text for all Horse vehicles? 14:57:48 <andythenorth> was just engines 14:57:50 <andythenorth> now coaches 14:57:56 <andythenorth> soon wagons? 14:58:10 <andythenorth> "Role: freight" seemed redundant TBH 14:58:18 <andythenorth> but now it seems inconsistent to not have it 14:58:47 <peter1138> Role: Swiss 15:00:18 <peter1138> Four whole pee ems and I've barely done anything. FS. 15:06:56 <andythenorth> Role: Cheese 15:07:16 <andythenorth> lol testing pax train profitability 15:07:21 <andythenorth> in a cdist game 15:07:26 <andythenorth> is silly andythenorth 15:12:04 <andythenorth> hmm 15:12:12 <andythenorth> well I spent 3 days redoing this 15:12:36 <andythenorth> but it's about the same or worse :) 15:12:36 <andythenorth> GG 15:12:37 <andythenorth> WP 15:19:17 <Wolf01> Bad back pain again :( 15:19:21 <andythenorth> ouch 15:19:24 <andythenorth> hmm 15:19:35 <andythenorth> so I am trying to get cargo aging period to do something 15:19:48 <Wolf01> I hope from monday I'll get better with the medication 15:20:21 <andythenorth> what does cargo aging do again? :P 15:20:24 * andythenorth looks it up 15:20:34 <Wolf01> Complicates stuff 15:21:02 <andythenorth> a tick is 2.5 days? 15:26:24 *** TheArcaneBrony has quit IRC 15:36:11 <andythenorth> goes it set very aggressive payment decay on FIRS pax? 15:39:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:48:53 <supermop_Home_> Wolf01 did you get vaccine? 15:49:06 <Wolf01> Not yet 15:50:05 <supermop_Home_> there has been some evidence here that some of the vaccines help clear up long-lingering symptoms in people who have long-lasting residual covid symptoms 15:50:14 <supermop_Home_> hopefully you can get it soon! 15:50:41 <supermop_Home_> my vaccine made me feel car sick for about a day though 15:53:25 <Wolf01> Not covid related, but covid may have helped to get worse, slipped discs and compressed nerves, that's because I sit down too much and didn't do enough physical activity 15:53:51 <Wolf01> Now I can't sit down at all :) 15:57:11 <_dp_> hi, is there any estimate on 1.11.1? 15:57:36 <Wolf01> Hmmmm interesting number 15:59:48 *** Synck has joined #openttd 16:01:28 <riis> is there a way to print console logs to a file on windows? 16:02:12 <riis> on the subreddit someone discussed a way to do it on linux, i have no idea if it works 16:04:58 <Wolf01> I think it's just standard output, you shoud be able to launch it with > yourfile.txt and get what you wna 16:05:01 <Wolf01> *want 16:06:11 <riis> do i still need to convert ottd to a console app? 16:06:28 <riis> the command i came across is openttd -d 1 >> .logfile.log 2>&1 16:09:58 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:11:48 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:15:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start https://git.io/JYhUq 16:16:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere commented on issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start https://git.io/JYhUq 16:18:08 *** Synck has quit IRC 16:20:16 <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B5rbsOoIUE andythenorth forget flash, make games with css :D:D:D:D 16:28:05 <andythenorth> wow 16:28:42 <andythenorth> so I need some numbers 16:28:45 <andythenorth> send numbers 16:29:15 <Wolf01> 42 16:29:56 <michi_cc> 69 16:30:02 <LordAro> 5 16:30:33 *** Venemo has quit IRC 16:30:41 <andythenorth> ok 16:31:31 <andythenorth> I have vehicle A, with capacity 48, and default cargo age period 185 16:31:48 <andythenorth> I have vehicle B, with capacity 79, and cargo age period N 16:32:18 <andythenorth> what does N need to be, so that A profit > B profit on a travel time of 15 days 16:32:30 <andythenorth> [costs are levelled] 16:33:09 <andythenorth> oh we'd need the slope set by the cargo grf for the cargo 16:34:26 <andythenorth> curve is https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1780327/114063545-a40d9c00-9890-11eb-8b9c-1cb29489fe1a.png 16:35:45 <andythenorth> distance is 40 16:36:12 <andythenorth> so rates can double 16:36:22 <Wolf01> Did you try with imaginary numbers yet? 16:36:42 <andythenorth> @calc 134 * 2 * (48/10) 16:36:42 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1286.3999999999999 16:36:52 <andythenorth> @calc 133 * 2 * (79/10) 16:36:52 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2101.4 16:37:26 <Wolf01> Probably the complex realm could really help you 16:37:37 <andythenorth> this is actually lame 16:37:55 <andythenorth> I should have checked this 3 days ago eh 16:38:21 <andythenorth> I never pay any attention to how long vehicles take to travel a route in game 16:38:51 <andythenorth> I have been working on the basis that other authors say the magic number for cargo aging to work is about 64 tiles 16:38:59 <andythenorth> but that doesn't account for speed 16:41:36 *** didac has joined #openttd 16:44:33 <andythenorth> oops :) 16:44:48 <andythenorth> well I can't be arsed to revert it all 16:49:09 <Wolf01> What does speed has to do with cargo aging? 16:49:29 <andythenorth> it's related by ... maths? :P 16:49:32 <andythenorth> yes/no? 16:49:55 <andythenorth> uuf /me should be nicer 16:49:57 <andythenorth> sorry 16:50:15 <andythenorth> faster trains arrive sooner, cargo ages less 16:50:16 <Wolf01> Only if you can reach lightspeed or use whormholes? 16:50:44 <andythenorth> so the idea that aging is about distance is nonsense 16:50:49 <andythenorth> but that is what is written 16:50:52 <andythenorth> in the forums and so on 16:51:50 <andythenorth> and in my own code comments and advice 16:51:54 <andythenorth> 'oops' 16:52:21 <Wolf01> I think it was you that started this and now it's like a boomerang :P 16:53:51 <andythenorth> it's been around for a while, first posts about it are 2010-2013 or so 16:54:02 <andythenorth> but I have gamed myself yes 16:54:51 <andythenorth> this is interesting https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/the-takeaway-is-that-we-dont-tend-to-take-things-away/ 16:55:04 <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmCtG88L_Io <- this should answer your questions 16:57:56 <andythenorth> ;0 17:00:52 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 17:00:52 <andythenorth> this game looks awesome 17:01:51 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 17:01:52 *** didac has quit IRC 17:06:15 <andythenorth> so theory 1 was to increase cargo age period above 185, to give a bonus to some vehicles 17:06:28 <andythenorth> when that didn't work, some of us tried theory 2 17:06:47 <andythenorth> theory 2 is to set fast aging to give a malus to some vehicles instead 17:06:56 <andythenorth> but as that doesn't work either, how about theory 3? 17:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you could increase the size of the age counter 17:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> to make shorter age period reasonable 17:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you could completely rework the price calculation 17:12:35 <andythenorth> maybe I should make a spreadsheet with a chart 17:12:54 <andythenorth> I can't work out what the result of setting age period to 1 would be 17:12:59 <andythenorth> on a route that takes 15 days 17:13:45 <andythenorth> it won't age 185 times faster, right? 17:13:57 <andythenorth> 15 times faster? 17:15:09 <Wolf01> I still don't get it 17:17:43 <andythenorth> ok my test train has now lost £80k in a year with cargo age 1 17:17:51 <andythenorth> but running cost is £47k so that's lol 17:18:09 <andythenorth> must be residual transfer credits on the test route 17:18:12 <Wolf01> Negative income cargo 17:18:14 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:19:03 <Wolf01> Quak 17:20:11 <glx> <riis> do i still need to convert ottd to a console app? <-- yes still needed on windows 17:20:37 <glx> we do it for CI regression test 17:24:24 *** Synck has joined #openttd 17:25:10 <andythenorth> looks like setting cargo aging to 1 does have an effect on a 15 day route 17:25:37 <andythenorth> for FIRS pax at least 17:25:41 <andythenorth> dunno about other grfs 17:26:19 <andythenorth> the case in 2013 against a payment multiplier was that setting the cargo payment should be left to the cargo grf 17:26:21 * peter1138 grumbles about gui sprites with transparent areas 17:26:37 <andythenorth> and that a cargo aging period is the correct solution 17:26:45 <andythenorth> because that doesn't....mess with the payment curve at all 17:27:05 <andythenorth> peter1138 what have they done to you? 17:27:16 <andythenorth> can I help? :P 17:27:23 <andythenorth> this cargo shit got boring a week ago 17:27:25 <peter1138> They cause wrong window sizing. 17:27:31 <andythenorth> ouch 17:27:48 <peter1138> Known old problem 17:28:16 <peter1138> Back in the old days the widget size was specified in pixels, and the sprite drawn in the top left. 17:28:36 <peter1138> So if the sprite is smaller than the button it doesn't matter 17:28:49 <peter1138> Why would you waste time drawing transparent pixels? 17:29:06 <peter1138> But then we started using the sprite size to determine the button size, and... 17:29:33 <andythenorth> I see 17:29:35 <andythenorth> classic 17:29:51 <peter1138> And even if the button size is fixed, drawing the sprite in the centre is not correct. 17:31:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973) https://git.io/JYhGt 17:32:11 *** Synck has quit IRC 17:32:32 <LordAro> sounds like a bug in ogfx :p 17:32:41 <Wolf01> Calculate total width considering transparent pixels but center alignment without the transparent pixels? 17:32:56 <peter1138> The transparent pixels don't exist. 17:33:01 <peter1138> LordAro, original graphics. 17:34:01 <michi_cc> Hmm, is there anything we really don't want to backport to 1.11.1? Looking at GitHub, almost all recent PRs are tagged for backport anyway. 17:34:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8951: Fix graphical issues with dragging measurement tooltips in the viewport https://git.io/JYHzN 17:35:26 <andythenorth> do cargo packets age on stations? 17:35:28 <peter1138> Deep Oceans. 17:35:39 * andythenorth getting nonsensical results from testing 17:37:16 <glx> michi_cc: well the first backport batch will be easy, but once we add some features it will be another story 17:37:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request https://git.io/JYxdB 17:37:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #186: [pt_BR] Translator access request https://git.io/JYNWY 17:38:08 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 17:38:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, days_in_transit? 17:39:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 17:39:19 <andythenorth> 2.5 days / tick? 17:40:28 <peter1138> Well, it's increased 1 when your cargo_age_period lops 17:40:30 <peter1138> *loops 17:40:51 <peter1138> but it only goes up to 255 17:40:59 <andythenorth> got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1 17:41:12 <andythenorth> on a route of 15 tiles first vehicle earns about 6x more than second 17:41:14 <andythenorth> which looks about right 17:41:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #184: [zh_CN] Translator access request https://git.io/JY76D 17:42:36 <andythenorth> hmm, no the in-game cargo chart never shows the payment curve reaching 6x less than starting value 17:42:49 <peter1138> Maybe I could just Action 5 some replacement sprites to get rid of the offsets and stuff. 17:43:32 * andythenorth completely confused 17:43:37 <michi_cc> glx: There's a macOS crash-bug, 1.11.1 shouldn't wait that long. 17:43:51 <LordAro> ^ 17:43:53 <andythenorth> really not sure what value I'm supposed to set :) 17:43:53 <glx> I know 17:44:00 <LordAro> be nice to fix the GL-related crashes as well though 17:44:06 <andythenorth> the empirical testing doesn't give me any useful number :) 17:44:12 <peter1138> Are there GL crashes? 17:44:19 <andythenorth> I need a number, then I need to factor in vehicle speed 17:44:20 <glx> at least 2 different 17:44:31 <andythenorth> then I need to factor in FIRS payment rate, and default game pax rate 17:44:39 <andythenorth> and detect all known FIRS versions 17:44:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request https://git.io/JtIiL 17:44:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 closed issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request https://git.io/JtIiL 17:45:10 <glx> but they are weird #8967 and #8969 17:45:26 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 17:46:37 <frosch123> TrueBrain: to extend your list: we support amazon by streaming on twitch, and we support google by uploading to youtube 17:46:44 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 17:48:17 <TrueBrain> ah, there is Google 17:48:18 <TrueBrain> tnx :) 17:49:31 <peter1138> LordAro, this offset + transparency issue is also why the buoy icon is in the wrong place on the waterways construction menu, and the place sign button the landscaping menu 17:49:47 <peter1138> There's probably some other locations 17:50:09 <LordAro> peter1138: is it actual original graphics, or our-original graphics ? 17:50:17 <frosch123> hmm, buoy used to use the same sprite on map and in gui 17:50:20 <frosch123> was that fixed somewhen? 17:50:46 <peter1138> It's a different sprite 17:51:38 <peter1138> LordAro, the music player sprites are definitely original, I think place sign is too, not sure about the buoy 17:52:24 <andythenorth> frosch123 can your cargo aging spreadsheet model setting age period to 1 17:52:25 <andythenorth> ? 17:53:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JYhcZ 17:53:17 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:53:25 <peter1138> I wonder if we should add back the "vu" meter :D 17:53:30 <frosch123> it can, but 1 is a pretty silly value, it will reach the age limit pretty fast 17:53:49 <andythenorth> I am curious what it predicts 17:54:05 <andythenorth> that only ages 6 times on a 15 day journey? 17:54:05 <frosch123> someone should write a blog about vehicle economy 17:54:21 <andythenorth> I don't think it can be me 17:54:31 <andythenorth> testing empirically, the results are non-understandable 17:54:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, 1 will max out aging after 3 days or so 17:55:57 <frosch123> and since age includes loading and unloading, it would require a rather short trip :p 17:56:16 <andythenorth> ok so I need to time from when first cargo is loaded? 17:56:25 <andythenorth> not departure :P 17:56:29 <andythenorth> that affects empiricism 17:56:31 <frosch123> cargo ages inside vehicles 17:57:00 <andythenorth> ok 17:57:20 <frosch123> if you have gradual loading (probably), the cargo will be of different age 17:57:36 <andythenorth> are cargo packets FIFO? 17:57:38 <andythenorth> or LIFO? 17:57:59 <frosch123> neither, vehicles have a blender installed on them 17:58:05 <andythenorth> super :) 17:58:13 <frosch123> they mix old and new cargo into a homogenous blend of middle-aged cargo 17:58:18 <andythenorth> probably only a marginal difference 17:58:40 <andythenorth> 17 day route, 6.76x profit difference, identical run costs 17:59:16 <andythenorth> I am trying to scale vehicle A and vehicle B so that vehicle A is more profitable on routes > 20 days 17:59:24 <andythenorth> I can't find a scaling factor 17:59:36 <frosch123> haha, factor 7 difference in income :p i heard newgrf authors say, cargo aging does nothing :p 17:59:45 <andythenorth> I can normalise it for vehicle speed later 17:59:57 <andythenorth> and then I can detect which grf is providing pax 18:00:16 <andythenorth> and find out the payment curve steepness 18:00:53 <andythenorth> I am going to ignore different playstyles, and route congestion and cdist transfer payment effect 18:01:48 <andythenorth> 1 is too fast, I'll try 2 18:02:02 <andythenorth> I wonder if there's enough granularity 18:05:01 <andythenorth> 2 hits the floor I think 18:05:14 <andythenorth> shall I increment in 1, or bisect? :P 18:06:37 <peter1138> printf 18:06:38 *** Synck has joined #openttd 18:06:41 <peter1138> Add lots of printfs :D 18:08:10 <andythenorth> the route takes 20 days and I want a 1/1.66 reduction of earnings 18:08:17 <andythenorth> number must be there to be found 18:11:11 <frosch123> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fowenduffy.net%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F06%2FScreenshot-190602103448.png&f=1&nofb=1 <- do you want charts like that? but for vehicle profits? 18:11:53 <andythenorth> I don't know if I want it :) 18:12:03 <andythenorth> but this is what's in the spec 18:12:11 <andythenorth> the number is > 15 18:12:15 <andythenorth> this is exciting no? 18:12:21 <andythenorth> is the number 18? 18:12:26 <frosch123> it's a paper solution to a problem that is better solved with some interactive app 18:12:58 <andythenorth> well if we could make it interactive 18:13:04 <andythenorth> we'd have the formula? :) 18:13:10 <peter1138> So apparenly "4" corresponds to 10 days. Hmm. 18:13:17 <andythenorth> and if we have the formula, I could reverse it 18:13:27 <andythenorth> then we could just automate having a payment multiplier 18:13:58 *** otetede has joined #openttd 18:14:54 <peter1138> So 185 is 462 days? 18:16:01 <andythenorth> that matches what spec says 18:16:05 <andythenorth> in newgrf wiki 18:16:18 <peter1138> Ok. Graph doesn't show that value. heh. 18:17:25 <andythenorth> I don't really understand the graph 18:17:32 <andythenorth> cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks 18:17:41 <andythenorth> but the graph shows it aging immediately 18:18:08 <andythenorth> the chart x scale only goes to 200 days even 18:18:23 <peter1138> What does "cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks" mean? 18:19:05 <andythenorth> from the wiki " By default, cargo is aged every 185 ticks" 18:19:38 <andythenorth> which implies a flat line for first 462 days 18:19:48 <andythenorth> but chart shows immediate slope 18:20:22 <peter1138> Wrong way around. 18:20:28 <peter1138> 185 ticks is 10 game days 18:21:12 <andythenorth> makes more sense 18:21:46 * andythenorth re-reads wiki 18:21:50 <andythenorth> " 185 game ticks (roughly 2.5 game days)" 18:22:52 <LordAro> @calc 185/74 18:22:52 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 2.5 18:22:57 <LordAro> roughly. 18:23:22 <TrueBrain> @calc 2.5*74 18:23:22 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 185 18:23:26 <TrueBrain> shocker 18:24:11 <peter1138> Oh, right, I missed it too :p 18:24:28 <peter1138> Stupid brains 18:24:44 <peter1138> Anyway, graph on discord... I wonder what I've done wrong :p 18:25:02 <TrueBrain> I like that graph 18:25:15 <TrueBrain> challenging to not deliver it too quickly, but also not too late 18:27:56 <peter1138> Well, looking at it, I've not done anything to cause an overflow/rounding issue. So it's not impossible that cargo aging is broken. 18:28:48 <andythenorth> nice graph 18:29:05 <andythenorth> snail said in testing it was parabolic 18:29:06 <peter1138> Hmm, unless it is wrapping again. 18:29:07 <andythenorth> but eh 18:29:40 <peter1138> j = 0; j != 60; j++ 18:29:42 <peter1138> j * 4 + 4 18:30:06 <peter1138> That... is still only up to 244, not wrapping past 255. 18:34:09 <andythenorth> wiki says timefactor is floored at 31 18:34:25 <peter1138> Yes, it is. 18:34:25 * andythenorth doesn't have src open 18:34:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8943: Volume controls in Game Options window https://git.io/JYh4B 18:35:25 <andythenorth> dp's charts show route length not days, but eh https://citymania.org/tools/profit 18:36:12 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 18:37:44 * andythenorth is there a livestream soon, where we can ask questions? :P 18:38:06 <frosch123> right, i have to prepare my bingo card 18:38:06 <michi_cc> I will make sure we will ignore you all the time :P 18:38:43 <andythenorth> "how does cargo payment work?" :P 18:38:54 <peter1138> return 4; 18:39:58 <peter1138> Ok, I guess the drawing is wrong :D 18:41:17 <peter1138> Yeah, I confused MAX_DATASETS with NUM_MONTHS 18:41:27 <peter1138> (because days are months, amirite?) 18:41:47 <peter1138> Okay, looks better now 18:42:10 <peter1138> Passengers flatlines after 310 days 18:43:25 <peter1138> Somewhere between £11-£12. 18:43:39 <peter1138> 18:40 < andythenorth> got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1 18:44:55 * andythenorth tests some more 18:44:59 <andythenorth> maybe it's 20 18:45:02 <andythenorth> magic numbers 18:46:54 <frosch123> hmm, what are the rules for bingo? is it enough for a question to be asked in chat, or do the broadcasters have to acknowledge it also? 18:47:07 <frosch123> the latter is way harder to predict 18:48:02 <michi_cc> Depends how large you make your bingo field I guess. Unless only trivial questions are asked I don't think we'll manage that many questions. 18:49:43 <andythenorth> glad we made fast forward fast 18:49:51 <andythenorth> testing cargo age takes a long time 18:50:05 <peter1138> Didn't the first round of timing changes make it fast anyway? 18:50:29 <peter1138> (2 years? ago) 18:50:34 <andythenorth> not on a mac 18:50:38 <peter1138> Bloody macs. 18:50:48 <TrueBrain> there is fast, and insanely fast :P 18:51:14 <andythenorth> ok so 20 is the number for cargo age 18:51:16 <andythenorth> why though? 18:51:28 <peter1138> Whose number where? 18:51:29 <andythenorth> this is just for one type of train 18:51:41 <andythenorth> I need a formula to balance out arbitrary trains 18:52:07 <andythenorth> all the factors are available, vehicle speed, capacity 18:52:32 <andythenorth> grf payment curve I can get by decompiling all the cargo / industry grf 18:53:51 <andythenorth> I can add a parameter for player to select the balancing point 18:54:08 <andythenorth> well a few parameters TBH 18:54:58 <andythenorth> when I first suggested a formula last week I was trolling myself 18:55:08 <andythenorth> but now it looks like the best route 18:56:52 <peter1138> Action 5 "extend existing sprite" :/ 18:57:33 <peter1138> VS Code doesn't seem to cache references. Takes ages to look them up. 19:01:40 <andythenorth> I probably can't use running costs to fake a cargo payment multiplier? 19:01:49 <andythenorth> CB36 doesn't run often enough 19:01:50 <andythenorth> ? 19:03:05 <frosch123> running cost is one of those cb that run all the time 19:03:25 <frosch123> people use it to set running cost to 0 at 0 speed 19:03:47 <frosch123> and to set it to a higher value when accelerating (0 < speed < max speed) 19:03:57 <frosch123> and a third value when idling at max speed 19:04:09 <andythenorth> sounds promising 19:04:30 <andythenorth> can we have signed running costs? 19:04:49 <andythenorth> might need some flag setting, in case existing grfs have running costs > 127? 19:04:54 <andythenorth> oh the cb goes higher 19:16:27 <andythenorth> or maybe a payment multiplier would be simpler dunno :| 19:32:58 *** otetede has quit IRC 19:44:09 <frosch123> hmm, it's actually hard to come up with 25 unique questions 19:44:25 <frosch123> usually people ask the same thing 5 times with different words 19:46:40 <EER> I'd be interested to know about some behind the scenes stuff with the steam release, like anything noteworthy that had to change in the release process? Other than that just looking forward to some banter ;-) 19:47:43 <frosch123> he, that's cheating 19:47:51 <frosch123> you can't ask questions before the stream 19:48:13 <michi_cc> There will be some banter I guess, but otherwise we'll try to seriously answer questions. 19:49:06 <EER> I did press ctrl+shift+c before typing this, so I thought that should enable cheats :p 19:49:52 <frosch123> too bad the "overly dramatic message" was removed :p 19:50:22 <supermop_Home_> frosch123 i use different running costs for: in depot (no crew), stopped (crew but no operational cost), accelerating (heavy fuel use and mechanical wear), and cruising (minimal fuel and wear) 19:52:39 <supermop_Home_> and a bunch of switches, so that the labor part gets more expensive than the fuel part as time progresses 19:54:39 <supermop_Home_> i'd rather vehicles just had a property of "how many people staff this thing" and the cost of worker/month can be then set by newgrf or GS or NewInflation 19:55:45 <frosch123> then you need a setting "labor unions: on/off" 19:55:50 <supermop_Home_> ofc 19:56:15 <andythenorth> is there a var that will give me how many days the route will take? 19:56:17 <supermop_Home_> to be serious though, i feel there is value separating out labor vs fuel cost 19:56:20 <frosch123> are there still two drivers in uk trains? 19:56:33 <andythenorth> nah 19:56:36 <andythenorth> controversial that 19:56:46 *** keenriser has joined #openttd 19:56:51 <Timberwolf> It would tie things right back to Chris Sawyer's PC conversion of Frontier, to have your train sit in depot 8 months because you upgraded from 7 crew to 12 crew and the RNG won't give you anyone to hire. 19:56:55 <frosch123> was it a thatcher thing? 19:57:00 <andythenorth> predates that 19:57:05 <andythenorth> it was driver + fireman 19:57:19 <andythenorth> and then driver + guard, but guard has to go in back cab 19:57:23 <supermop_Home_> steam engine cheaper to run than diesel in 1930 but much much more expensive in 1990 19:57:24 <andythenorth> unless there is no back cab 19:57:29 <andythenorth> then a brake van is needed 19:57:44 <andythenorth> also if there are certain types of brake system, the guard may not ride in the rear cab 19:57:49 <andythenorth> so then brake van 19:57:53 <andythenorth> Horse 3.0 models all this? 19:58:09 <supermop_Home_> i think that dynamic has real gameplay value beyond the rivet counting 19:58:19 <andythenorth> orly? 19:58:20 <andythenorth> :P 19:58:20 <frosch123> yes, start/stop callback: the labor union does not approve operation of this train in this configuration 19:58:25 <frosch123> no further explanation needed 19:58:57 <supermop_Home_> that the cost/benefit comparison of 2 different vehicle types can change over time 19:59:16 <frosch123> not enough politics in ottd 19:59:37 <supermop_Home_> i'm not even thinking of labor politics, just 19:59:37 <frosch123> anyway, i made it to 30 questions... time to drop 5, and put the rest on a 5x5 grid 19:59:58 <Timberwolf> Add complexity to the economic model, that gets political fast. 20:00:32 <supermop_Home_> simple but labor intensive machine is cheap early, complex but easy to use machine is cheap later 20:01:25 <Timberwolf> There's an interesting discussion somewhere of SimCity have an ultra-capitalist economic model, somewhat against the grain of what Will Wright talks about around the game. 20:01:56 <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf i just want a way to add another property to compare vehicles in game 20:02:08 <frosch123> when people talk "simcity" these days. what version do they refer to? 20:02:09 <Timberwolf> (Sims in game only care about land value. If it's going up they want to move to your city, if it's flat or decreasing they want to move away.) 20:02:30 <frosch123> iirc the last version (2013?) was so terrible, it killed the series 20:02:35 <Timberwolf> Heh. Original, 2000, 3000, 4 and Cities: Skylines :) 20:02:45 <frosch123> oh, right, cities:skylines it is 20:02:55 <Timberwolf> I don't know what model Skylines uses. 20:02:58 <supermop_Home_> of course if a new grf author sets every steam, electric, and maglev train to have 1 staff and 1 unit of fuel consumption that's up to them 20:03:21 <andythenorth> I am trying to find a way to have vehicles trade tile length and income 20:03:30 <andythenorth> but I have spectacularly failed so far 20:03:38 <Timberwolf> I realised this when I added the taxation-effects-town-growth mechanic to Villages Is Villages. 20:04:02 <andythenorth> more capacity / length = more income 20:04:03 <andythenorth> no trade 20:04:29 <andythenorth> arsing around counting how many days a route takes and then looking on the cargo payment chart isn't turning out to be fun 20:04:53 <Timberwolf> Maximum population in towns depends on tax, maximum size of city depends on total dividends paid, the city with your HQ in it grows immediately when you pay dividends. 20:04:57 <andythenorth> running costs would need to know the income in advance :( 20:05:03 <supermop_Home_> currently if you set steam train to 120 runcost and diesel to 130, they will have the same delta forever 20:05:07 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 20:05:21 <Timberwolf> I did this and then thought, "hang on, that's actually a series of quite strong political statements" 20:07:17 <supermop_Home_> some trainsets have electric trains with higher running cost than diesel 20:07:25 <supermop_Home_> consistently 20:07:32 <Timberwolf> Or rather, the net effect of them is. 20:08:21 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ that would be fixable within the spec though? 20:08:23 <andythenorth> Timberwolf is GS? 20:08:28 <supermop_Home_> so its like you pay more to build and maintain the tracks, pay more to buy and run the trains, totally linearly 20:08:35 <Timberwolf> YEah, that's my town growth and economy GS. 20:08:58 <supermop_Home_> in return you maybe get a little sportier performance, or maybe all the diesel trains become obsolete 20:09:28 <Timberwolf> The economy setup is that if companies pay a lot of money to their shareholders but little to the state, cities prosper at the expense of towns. 20:10:27 <Timberwolf> I do think it needs a way to influence things one way or the other so you actually have some agency in this. 20:10:37 <supermop_Home_> but there is no trade off of "this is a high traffic line, i should electrify it" vs "this line gets little traffic, it makes sense to pay a little more per mile in fuel for the one train than to hang up wires over it" 20:11:50 <supermop_Home_> like wise, at the steam/diesel/electric transition, basically steam trains are cheaper and have lower running cost than early electrics or the first diesels 20:12:16 <andythenorth> I pretty much levelled the steam and diesel 20:12:43 <supermop_Home_> so it comes down to just "its the 50s now, there are no more steam trains and all the next diesels will be better across the board" 20:13:25 <supermop_Home_> what i am getting at has 3 levels i guess: 20:14:06 *** Synck has quit IRC 20:15:39 <supermop_Home_> 1) tad more granularity to running cost, 2) some dynamic comparison between vehicle types, 3) most remotely, an inkling of a richer inflation/economy model (certain things can get more expensive faster than others) 20:20:38 <andythenorth> 1) is fine no? I don't have trouble with it 20:20:44 <andythenorth> 2) ... well 20:22:20 <andythenorth> hmm 20:22:34 <andythenorth> something is wrong about the idea of a cargo aging malus on some vehicles 20:22:45 <andythenorth> it doesn't work right on routes that are supposed to be above the threshold 20:23:52 <andythenorth> I think it's because the 'short route' train has already hit the decay limit 20:24:01 <andythenorth> and the 'long route' train continues to decay 20:24:13 <andythenorth> so the difference between them reduces as a ratio 20:30:37 <peter1138> Yes, it will. 20:31:14 <peter1138> Solution, get rid of the threshold. If it takes too long, no payment is made :p 20:31:25 <supermop_Home_> +1 20:31:54 <supermop_Home_> if it takes too long the passengers sue you for unlawful detainment 20:32:12 <andythenorth> I started with cargo aging 1 :P 20:32:26 <andythenorth> I should have set the other train to 0 20:32:36 <andythenorth> Vehicle A: ages immediately 20:32:41 <andythenorth> Vehicle B: ages never 20:32:46 <andythenorth> You decide! 20:33:04 <andythenorth> then there is no threshold :P 20:33:06 <andythenorth> just play 20:33:56 <andythenorth> where did I leave my payment multiplier patch? 20:34:21 <andythenorth> lol, so not a patch https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/1b3fa6c44d3b9a2790fae202e846d147 20:38:52 *** Wuzzy has joined #openttd 20:42:34 <andythenorth> ok the magic number doesn't work 20:42:41 <andythenorth> it's way too faffy 20:42:46 <andythenorth> 20 is too low, 32 is too high 20:43:11 <andythenorth> allowing for e.g. slopes, congestion, train speed, train power etc, it's going to be too fragile 20:43:21 * andythenorth abandons that 20:43:30 <peter1138> Vary it by something 20:43:49 <peter1138> Something random 20:43:57 <andythenorth> day of year? 20:44:02 <andythenorth> not exactly random :P 20:44:07 <peter1138> Hmm, 20:44:14 <andythenorth> cargo aging is just a dice roll? 20:55:54 <frosch123> make cargo aging depend on the year, and use that to compensate inflation :p 20:56:48 <andythenorth> I think you might need to stage an intervention soon 20:56:54 <andythenorth> and we never mention cargo aging again 20:57:01 <andythenorth> it's starting to traumatise me 20:57:12 <andythenorth> I took the idea of 'random per vehicle' seriously 20:57:29 <frosch123> are you on the stream? or do you want to ask questions yourself? 20:57:36 <andythenorth> I am not on the stream 20:57:39 <frosch123> i finished my bingo card, but i may need a second player 20:57:49 <andythenorth> GG 20:58:12 <andythenorth> hmm I tried using speed as a balance against capacity 20:58:20 <andythenorth> but moar pax = moar payment 20:58:26 <frosch123> i decided to count both "questions asked in chat" and "question acknowledged by streamers" 20:58:52 <andythenorth> I don't think I could keep up with questions in caht 20:58:53 <andythenorth> chat * 20:58:55 <frosch123> if the latter wins, it has precedencs. the former is a backup-rule, if noone wins otherwise 20:59:34 <frosch123> oh, quite sure it will be the same as on reddit or steam. every 5th line the same question by a different guy 21:00:25 <frosch123> we can play another game: take the first question that is answered. guess how often it is asked again during the stream :p 21:00:35 <andythenorth> so many games :) 21:00:52 <andythenorth> prize for best question also 21:04:24 * andythenorth adventures in C++ 21:04:36 <andythenorth> any way to get the vehicle from VehicleCargoList? 21:04:44 <andythenorth> or would a reference have to be store in VehicleCargoList? 21:05:14 <nielsm> too late to try looking anything like that up 21:05:30 <andythenorth> I can only face this late at night :) 21:05:35 <andythenorth> this is so...out of my depth 21:05:42 <andythenorth> ideally I would have drunk more 21:06:41 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:06:46 <andythenorth> they have this->Parent 21:06:54 <andythenorth> but I don't know what that would get me :) 21:06:59 * andythenorth should learn to printf 21:08:04 <andythenorth> typedef CargoList<VehicleCargoList, CargoPacketList> Parent; might be a thing 21:08:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why do all FIRS 4 industries have such enormous base production :-( 21:08:24 <andythenorth> they do? 21:08:24 <FLHerne> I'm trying to build my little 64^2 world 21:08:47 <andythenorth> I think it might be a valid case for a parameter 21:08:50 <FLHerne> But everything needs trains, because the number of 1920 road trucks to move 200 tons/mo is impractical 21:09:02 <FLHerne> I think it would be nice if it scaled up by date 21:09:05 <andythenorth> ctrl-alt-c? 21:09:13 <FLHerne> but of course that's another thing to tune 21:09:28 *** glx has quit IRC 21:09:30 <andythenorth> well I have been considering ways to allow production to increase 21:09:31 <FLHerne> Which cheat? 21:09:47 <FLHerne> Money is ok, it just looks really stupid 21:09:50 *** glx has joined #openttd 21:09:51 <andythenorth> Enable modifying production values? 21:09:57 <FLHerne> oooh 21:10:04 <FLHerne> I completely forgot that was a thing 21:10:05 <andythenorth> FIRS respects that setting 21:10:17 <andythenorth> I could do a parameter though 21:10:29 <FLHerne> I foresee abusing this to an absurd degree in future games 21:10:48 <andythenorth> "Base production" would be ok 21:10:50 <FLHerne> "damn this industry is producing too much for my aesthetic trainset" is a frequent annoyance 21:11:20 <andythenorth> I'd like to restore the option for OpenTTD to increase production 21:11:29 <andythenorth> in conjuction with supplies 21:11:43 <andythenorth> not sure I can control it enough 21:11:57 <andythenorth> also this Horse thing is my current unhealthy obsession 21:13:18 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:14:51 <FLHerne> I like the lack of production increase of served industries 21:15:00 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:15:05 <FLHerne> In base game it just gets unmanageable without huge unrealistic stations 21:15:54 <FLHerne> More variety in base production between instances would be nice IMO 21:16:11 <FLHerne> That way I could choose how 'big' a farm I want to serve 21:16:23 <FLHerne> Well, not on this tiny map because there's one farm :p 21:16:51 <FLHerne> oops, I just crashed ottd 21:22:41 <peter1138> Nice 21:23:41 *** didac has joined #openttd 21:23:52 *** keenriser has quit IRC 21:24:04 <andythenorth> I was thinking maybe a GS :P 21:24:06 <andythenorth> could do it 21:24:23 <andythenorth> I also considered the option to have 'lucky' and 'unlucky' industries 21:24:32 <andythenorth> lucky ones occasionally increase if given supplies 21:24:39 <andythenorth> (base increase) 21:26:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8975: Change: do not disable NewGRF window apply button if dev tools are enabled https://git.io/JYhMY 21:26:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus. https://git.io/JYhM3 21:28:11 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 21:28:24 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 21:31:45 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:37:27 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: can you make GitHub accept .sav as an upload file type, or is that a hardcoded GH thing? 21:38:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne opened issue #8977: Crash when increasing max zoom https://git.io/JYhDx 21:42:26 <FLHerne> bleh, GitHub is stupid 21:42:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973) https://git.io/JYhy4 21:48:03 <peter1138> I love stupid dirty hacks. 21:48:28 <peter1138> if (id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; PadSingleSprite(s, ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X, 0, 0, 20 - s->width - s->x_offs, 20 - s->height - s->y_offs); } 21:48:32 <peter1138> :p 21:48:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup https://git.io/JYhyh 21:49:08 <didac> OK so the weirdest thing is happening: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8978 21:49:17 <didac> thank you DorpsGek, so nice of you 21:52:09 <peter1138> Yeah, don't use Onedrive for stuff you don't want to sync... 21:52:54 <peter1138> All sorts of weird shit happens. 21:56:16 <andythenorth> peter1138 that looks like something I'd do :P 21:56:22 <andythenorth> it would work, and it would be ick 21:56:55 <andythenorth> condition="vehicle.is_lead_unit_of_consist and (consist.power > 0 or consist.buy_menu_hint_wagons_add_power) or consist._buy_menu_role_string is not None" 21:56:56 <andythenorth> oof 21:57:38 <peter1138> See, it works ;p 22:01:15 <peter1138> Possibly removing the offsets will work instead 22:01:43 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: zip the sav file and you can upload it 22:03:08 <FLHerne> I did that 22:03:31 <FLHerne> But it would be more convenient not to :p 22:04:47 <FLHerne> "bleh, GitHub is stupid" was when I realized it had parsed the #1, #2, #3, ... in the backtrace as issue numbers, and then helpfully put backlink comments "FLHerne mentioned in issue" on every one of those 22:06:11 <dwfreed> FLHerne: edit that section and wrap it with ``` 22:06:25 <dwfreed> 1) it'll be easier to read; 2) it won't do issue references 22:06:46 <andythenorth> hmm is it bedtime? 22:07:00 <dwfreed> I mean, it's 11 PM for you, right? 22:07:06 <andythenorth> yair 22:07:18 <dwfreed> so, probably close :P 22:07:20 <andythenorth> I took a week off to work on grf :) 22:07:41 <andythenorth> 7 days in, all I've achieved is deleted a bunch of Iron Horse, then tried to restore it for 3 days, then failed :D 22:07:48 <andythenorth> I could cry if it wasn't so lolz 22:08:02 <dwfreed> oof 22:08:53 <FLHerne> dwfreed: From previous experience, editing doesn't remove the references 22:08:59 <FLHerne> So I'd need a time machine 22:09:12 <dwfreed> It won't remove the backlinks, but it will remove the forward links 22:09:32 <dwfreed> it will stop seeing #1 as an issue reference in your issue 22:09:35 <FLHerne> I don't really care about those 22:09:46 <dwfreed> point 1 is still valid, though 22:10:43 <andythenorth> let's see what cargo aging 0 does for lolz 22:10:49 <dwfreed> also it parsed some of the backtrace as emoji 22:10:59 <dwfreed> which is hilarious and annoying at the same time 22:13:38 <FLHerne> hah, now that's annoying enough to make me edit it 22:20:55 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, removing the offsets also works. Hmm. 22:21:53 <FLHerne> peter1138: wtf is that code you quoted?! 22:22:06 <peter1138> Delightful isn't it? 22:22:31 <peter1138> if (id == SPR_IMG_BUY_LAND || id == SPR_IMG_BUOY || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; s->x_offs = 0; s->y_offs = 0; } 22:22:35 <peter1138> Also work s;) 22:25:09 <peter1138> Action 0x0A would be the correct way but would require... borrowing... sprite data. 22:25:20 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 22:26:31 <andythenorth> if id in [list] 22:26:49 <andythenorth> { fixups[name] } 22:27:06 <peter1138> Of course it depends on the baseset too. 22:27:15 <andythenorth> what else are basesets for? :) 22:27:17 <peter1138> I assume OpenGFX doesn't have this issue. 22:27:49 <peter1138> Yeah, that's fine. 22:28:55 <peter1138> aBase has this issue, along with thousands of others 22:29:08 <andythenorth> ouch 22:29:11 <FLHerne> Which issue? 22:29:40 <peter1138> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/829837364997521459/1.11.png 22:29:43 <peter1138> ^ 22:29:58 <peter1138> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/829837386547855400/hack.png 22:30:05 <peter1138> ^ what that 1 line does 22:30:45 <peter1138> Eh, kinda. Some of the other padding changes are not that line. 22:31:41 <FLHerne> I see 22:32:40 <peter1138> I wonder if there's any other places... 22:33:23 <peter1138> Arguably the 4 landscape type selection buttons... 22:33:40 <andythenorth> fuck knows what messing with these payments will do to transfer legs 22:33:47 <peter1138> They have an offset to centre the sprites on the original buttons, but... 22:35:51 <peter1138> Ah yeah, that looks better 22:36:30 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:37:21 <peter1138> TrueBrain, I heard you like multithreading... when you open the content window, there's a lot of *something* going on that causes everything to stutter for a bit, even if you close the window. 22:37:39 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:37:57 <peter1138> I think it's might just be something silly like repeatedly sorting the list. 22:39:13 <peter1138> Transmitter icon, yeah 22:40:01 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 22:40:01 *** glx is now known as Guest931 22:40:01 *** glx_ is now known as glx 22:41:23 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 22:42:14 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 22:42:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download https://git.io/JYxe3 22:43:42 <michi_cc> peter1138: Don't know where you arrived by now, but would it be an idea to "mirror" the offsets as padding on the other side? 22:44:27 <peter1138> michi_cc, that was actually my first attempt, and does work. 22:44:47 <peter1138> Setting offsets to 0 works for any size sprite though. 22:45:23 <peter1138> It may not be exactly the correct position though. 22:46:26 *** Guest931 has quit IRC 22:48:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download https://git.io/JYxe3 22:49:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download https://git.io/JYxe3 22:50:11 <peter1138> Turn on security features. Get surprised by security features doing security things. ... Profit? 22:51:08 <FLHerne> peter1138: I think just close that? 22:51:17 <FLHerne> It's clearly not an OTTD problem 22:55:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download https://git.io/JYxe3 22:57:39 <andythenorth> this malus on suburban coaches is pretty evil 22:57:55 <andythenorth> 32 - 20, depending on train generation (accounts for speed) 22:58:01 <andythenorth> default is 185 22:58:10 <andythenorth> it's not mentioned in buy menu :D 22:58:40 <andythenorth> 'probably fine' 23:00:55 <peter1138> That last point though 23:01:28 <peter1138> Why *doesn't* OpenTTD use %AppData% 23:01:53 <glx> because it's an old game 23:03:05 <dwfreed> hysterical raisins 23:03:08 <peter1138> Hmm, dates from Windows Vista. 23:03:08 <glx> but user not being able to write stuff in its document folder is weird 23:03:48 <glx> many games still use document folder for config and saves 23:04:10 <dwfreed> many games that post date even windows 10 use Documents instead of AppData 23:04:17 <andythenorth> since cargodist? 23:04:21 <andythenorth> should we? 23:04:26 <andythenorth> increase default cargo aging from 185? 23:04:35 <andythenorth> journeys are typically much longer 23:04:43 <andythenorth> we = me :P 23:04:51 <peter1138> Cargo doesn't age if it's sat on a platform. 23:05:00 <andythenorth> no 23:05:05 <andythenorth> but it might be on more legs 23:05:09 <peter1138> Maybe it should :p 23:05:10 <andythenorth> and stuff 23:05:13 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:05:24 <andythenorth> pls add newgrf property 23:05:27 <andythenorth> decay rate on platforms 23:05:31 <andythenorth> diamonds: 100% 23:05:34 <peter1138> newgrf puberty 23:05:39 <andythenorth> coming of age 23:05:44 <andythenorth> difficult teenage years 23:06:10 <peter1138> When was the first NewGRF? 23:06:14 <andythenorth> newships? 23:06:24 <peter1138> I'm assuming it predates OpenTTD. 23:06:27 <andythenorth> I have carefully tuned these cargo aging values to do _something_ for 6 generations of trains, but only point to point :P 23:06:30 <andythenorth> now I turn on cdist 23:06:35 <andythenorth> goes it throw out tuning? 23:07:42 <peter1138> Don't worry about it 23:09:40 <andythenorth> one train is losing money horribly :) 23:09:45 <andythenorth> the others profit profit 23:13:10 <peter1138> SPR_IMG_TRANSMITTER too 23:13:13 <peter1138> So 23:15:04 <peter1138> SPR_IMG_QUERY even. Hmm. 23:15:26 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:23:31 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 23:25:02 <peter1138> Oof, list is getting longer. 23:27:50 <andythenorth> oof! 23:27:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:27:53 <andythenorth> also lol 23:28:00 <andythenorth> in my cdist network test 23:28:48 <andythenorth> long leg of the route: the 'short route' coaches with aging malus outperform the long route coaches with standard aging 23:29:07 <andythenorth> short leg of the route: the long route coaches outperform the short route coaches 23:29:13 <andythenorth> "go figure" 23:29:23 <andythenorth> transfer stuff :P 23:37:40 <andythenorth> and if I change the trains on the long leg, the short route works as expected 23:37:58 <andythenorth> conclusion: I don't want 'andy tuned cargo aging for cdist' on any gravestone 23:41:40 <andythenorth> also sleeping 23:43:34 <peter1138> No. 23:44:27 <peter1138> So I need some way to pad or zero offsets only for these few sprites, and only for the original graphics (dos or windows I guess) 23:44:32 <peter1138> Hmmmm 23:48:04 *** andythenorth has quit IRC