Log for #openttd on 9th April 2021:
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00:27:05  <TheArcaneBrony> is it just me or is terrain gen slow?
00:27:46  <TheArcaneBrony>
00:27:49  <TheArcaneBrony> version: 1.11.0
01:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that's when there's no space for more industries (no flat land, weird newgrf restrictions, whatever)
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01:39:46  <TheArcaneBrony> ah
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05:18:24  <andythenorth> uuf
05:18:57  <andythenorth> peter1138 css :P
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06:32:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere updated pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
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06:58:11  <andythenorth> lol, but I play cdist with 0% distance-effect-on-demand
06:58:30  <andythenorth> that will affect transfer payments on my test network
07:03:39  <andythenorth> ha 80+ vars
07:05:20  <andythenorth> read 'profit last year', use cb 36 run cost to cap the maximum profit a vehicle can make?
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07:39:48  <peter1138> .toolbar-icon { min-width: 22px }
07:41:14  <nielsm> widgets need a flag for "must be square" imo to hint the layout system
07:41:15  <andythenorth> remember giving every element a unique DOM ID?
07:41:20  <andythenorth> and writing unique styles for it?
07:41:26  <andythenorth> that nearly sank my business at one point
07:41:44  <andythenorth> css 'best practice': considered harmful
07:42:11  <andythenorth> how about using 'classes' :P
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08:07:31  <peter1138> andythenorth, I never did that for css, no.
08:08:00  <andythenorth> someone wrote a blog post about it being the correct thing
08:08:05  <andythenorth> blogging: harmful
08:08:08  <andythenorth> GG WP
08:08:46  <peter1138> nielsm, the issue here is not that the widget isn't square, it's that the sprite is optimized for data size and isn't as large as the button it's meant to fill.
08:12:29  <peter1138> Drawing the sprite from the top-left of the button would actually fix it (and is how it was done originally)
08:17:43  <peter1138> Of course, we've added some sprites that rely on being centred since then.
08:18:03  <peter1138> Although as they are our own sprites they can be changed.
08:19:28  <LordAro> changing them all to be like the thing that can't be changed seems like the most appropriate fix
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08:26:26  <peter1138> OpenGFX is fine with it.
08:26:44  <peter1138> aBase is... "fine" with it. The missing sprites stand out clearer but they're missing anyway.
08:28:45  <peter1138> Oddly there are two places where the landscape type selection sprites are used, and the button sizes are different.
08:29:16  <peter1138> Ah, one place has SetMinimalSize, the other doesn't.
08:29:49  <peter1138> Actually SetMinimalSize isn't scaled in master anyway. Hmm.
08:30:15  <peter1138> Ah, whoops. Yes it is.
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08:40:47  <andythenorth> sprites could be moved around with PIL or imagemagick if we really wanted to fix a spritesheet
08:41:36  * andythenorth did it before a few times
08:41:58  <andythenorth> we have all the locations and bounding box sizes :P
08:59:56  <peter1138> We can't fix original data like that though.
09:00:27  <peter1138> Do I put LBC on, or some music... Hmm...
09:01:57  <peter1138> Ok, politics.
09:02:01  <peter1138> Music it is.
09:11:22  <andythenorth> I am listening to some Apple Music radio station thing
09:11:29  <andythenorth> it seems to mostly pick minor key songs
09:11:45  <andythenorth> or I need to adjust my mood :D
09:12:41  <peter1138> Well, I put Muse on. So, er, still politics.
09:14:00  <andythenorth> I briefly misread that as Moby
09:14:02  <andythenorth> oof
09:15:34  <Timberwolf> Weirldy hearing tracks from 'Play' feels like they were a lot longer ago than hearing tracks from 'Showbiz'.
09:16:16  <peter1138> Yeah, perception of time is fucked.
09:16:58  <andythenorth> Play was a bit...everywhere
09:17:09  <andythenorth> I read Moby's autobiography
09:17:16  <andythenorth> bit ... oof
09:20:24  <peter1138> I also find that early 90s feels ancient, and late 90s is a couple of years ago. Fecking age.
09:21:21  <LordAro> i only know Moby from having to study one of his tracks in my music GCSE
09:21:26  <LordAro> it's still ingrained into my brain
09:21:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
09:22:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
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09:22:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
09:23:05  <Timberwolf> There's some statistic like that being a 16 or 18 track album, and every single one eventually got sold for advertising.
09:24:44  <peter1138> Heh
09:25:33  <TrueBrain> peter1138: don't get me started about the content download window thingy ... but the solution is not threading
09:25:50  <TrueBrain> the solution is: why the fuck has nobody revised that window yet? It is impossible to find anything with that amount of downloads :P
09:26:09  <Timberwolf> Back when adverts licenced the original versions of songs, instead of doing ukelele and whistle covers of them.
09:26:11  <TrueBrain> "I want to download a Scenario, here, are AIs, NewGRFs, .... for you" :P
09:26:18  <peter1138> TrueBrain, yeah, when I remembered it was basically the sorting that is slowing it down, I realised :)
09:26:35  <TrueBrain> it was a nice GUI when we had 100 downloads to offer :P
09:26:38  <TrueBrain> fuck, I want back those days :D
09:27:04  <peter1138> Steam workshop instead ;)
09:27:31  <TrueBrain> sometimes I miss MSN .. I just want to pick up this big red circle with a diagonal line in between, and put it over your face now: BLOCKED :P
09:27:47  <TrueBrain> <3
09:28:58  <peter1138> I'd fake-ragequit, but I can't be bothered.
09:29:16  <peter1138> Meanwhile I'll rage at colleagues who ask for the stupidest things.
09:29:17  <TrueBrain> :)
09:29:25  <TrueBrain> I am so happy I don't have a job :P
09:29:38  <TrueBrain> yesterday I didn't feel like doing anything, so I sat on my couch all day watching stupid TV shows :P
09:29:40  <peter1138> Sorry, I mean "constructively respond in a reasoned manner"
09:30:01  <peter1138> Please change the text in this list from "foo" to "bar"
09:31:14  <peter1138> The list is internal to admins and refers to some theming selection, and I'd have to change everything that refers to it, just for a wording change.
09:32:56  <peter1138> My life is reduced to developing a web app. So much for changing the world. At least I get paid, I guess.
09:36:00  <Timberwolf> I'm fairly sure if you built a Slack bot to randomly interject, "keep it simple so you don't have to spend a lot of time on it", "what is the problem you are trying to solve, rather than a possible solution?" and "think about what everybody who uses this needs, not just what you need" it would have fairly decent performance as a manager.
09:37:33  <peter1138> We don't use Slack, we use old school email and Microsoft Teams. Basically anyone someone wants something it's an interruption.
09:37:53  <Timberwolf> Slack has kinda gone that way, although you can turn a lot of it off.
09:39:45  <dwfreed> peter1138: so an email autoreply instead (that doesn't loop if it gets replied to)
09:40:14  <peter1138> Or just email and Teams for a bit.
09:40:45  <dwfreed> I mean for Timberwolf's suggestion :)
09:41:26  <peter1138> I meant Close .. for a bit. Damn it.
09:41:49  <peter1138> Oh, shame, Thunderbird "crashed" again...
09:42:19  <peter1138> It's shit, but shit in different ways to Outlook. And Outlook REALLY pisses me off.
09:43:04  <LordAro> peter1138: teams has various "do not disturb" modes
09:43:34  <dwfreed> yeah, but if you say it crashed, then it's not your fault
09:44:17  <Timberwolf> The one that makes a lot of difference for me is being able to turn off the "x is typing..." message.
09:44:57  <Timberwolf> It was fun and exciting when you were talking 1:1 to a friend on MSN Messenger. It turns out to be annoying and somewhat anxiety-inducing in a work context.
09:45:38  <LordAro> i purposefully ignore anyone who just messages me with "hello"
09:47:58  <nielsm>  <-- openttd is now no longer compatible with windows xp
09:48:13  <nielsm> that function is vista+
09:48:18  <TrueBrain> good :)
09:48:30  <Timberwolf> This reminds me of the compromise I brokered a couple of companies ago. Which was, "put 'hello', 'can i ask a question?' and 'why is the flight schedule returns correct flight test muted?' all in the same opening message"
09:50:30  <milek7> which function? GetUserDefaultUILanguage seems to be: Minimum supported client 	Windows 2000
09:50:46  <nielsm> hmm... I had the impression it was newer actually
09:50:52  <Timberwolf> Was quite an interesting discussion, strong division between "it's rude to waste my time and attention" and "it feels rude to start without the hello and request for permission, I feel uncomfortable doing it"
09:51:06  <nielsm> when I implemented something with it for aegisub a long time ago
09:51:13  <peter1138> GetUserDefaultUILanguage was already there
09:51:19  <peter1138> MAKELCID is some macro apparently.
09:51:57  <TrueBrain> "Before downloading this set, please search for Erato's "Industry Tracktype Set" to see if version 1.1 has released, and if it has then use that instead. This RTS addon was cobbled together from his work and you're probably better off with the official solution than this, but if it hasn't materialized then go ahead and use this instead!"
09:51:59  <TrueBrain> do I want to know?
09:52:03  <TrueBrain> or should I just keep on walking?
09:52:32  <peter1138> Oh it wasn't already ther, just in that link it was. Hmm.
09:54:45  <peter1138> niels, GetSystemDefaultUILanguage is Vista+
09:55:40  <nielsm> I was thinking of GetUserPreferredUILanguages
09:55:56  <peter1138> Anyway, we don't build for XP anymore :D
09:56:38  <peter1138> Even if it is good enough for SirkoZ
09:56:50  <TrueBrain> we dropped XP support a long time ago, yes :) If it works, it is by accident :)
10:02:11  <michi_cc> nielsm: says Windows 2000.
10:02:39  <michi_cc> Oh, note to self: read backlog first :)
10:04:24  <TrueBrain> nah, this is much more fun :D
10:04:40  <TrueBrain> now we wait for frosch123 to join and do the same :P :P
10:04:41  <TrueBrain> sorry :)
10:05:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
10:05:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
10:06:05  <TrueBrain> silly michi_cc , that commit message got really weird now :D
10:06:15  <TrueBrain> " Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973) (#8974)" :D
10:08:23  <TrueBrain> maybe for 1.11.1 we should try using the PR titles for the changelog?
10:08:29  <TrueBrain> see if that makes it a bit easier on us
10:08:47  <michi_cc> Oops, didn't notice the second brackets. I thought the first set was the GitHub squash addition :)
10:09:19  <TrueBrain> simply means that we  have to make sure the titles of PRs are Changelog-worthy after merging
10:09:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
10:09:44  <TrueBrain> and editing that is easy :D
10:10:49  <TrueBrain> the only tricky part might be to query which PRs are part of a release after branching
10:11:58  <TrueBrain> you can easily query which pull request caused which commit in GitHub
10:12:06  <TrueBrain> but as we use backport PRs, that is non-trivial :D
10:12:34  <nielsm> michi_cc: I'll test #8976 in a few minutes
10:13:24  <TrueBrain> well, it is scriptable, so we could try, I guess :P
10:18:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus.
10:18:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8943: Volume controls in Game Options window
10:19:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus.
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10:24:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus.
10:24:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #8930: Windows IME can cause duplicate text input
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10:43:39  <michi_cc> LordAro: Confirmation for stream tonight?
10:44:22  <michi_cc> Timberwolf: You've been talking in chat, so I assume all go?
10:45:04  <Timberwolf> Yep, all good.
10:45:25  <Timberwolf> We joining at 1745UTC to sound check again?
10:45:35  <LordAro> michi_cc: should be fine
10:45:55  <michi_cc> Time depends on TB, but I'd say yes.
10:46:03  <LordAro> i'll probably need reminding around 5, am in the office today
10:46:14  <michi_cc> LordAro: Agenda/introduction:
10:47:03  <michi_cc> Anything you specifically want to be known for in the introduction, or just I just make up whatever? :P
10:47:14  <LordAro> i'll have to remember to switch to my good internet too
10:47:23  <LordAro> uh
10:47:41  <LordAro> make up whatever :p
10:47:55  <michi_cc> Okay, release manager for the current 1.11 cycle :)
10:49:06  <michi_cc> Oh, pop quiz time: What are my two most *user-visible* OTTD additions? (Hint: one might not be what you think) :D
10:50:01  <LordAro> you've been around far too long for me to be able to answer that :p
10:50:15  <LordAro> mine is textfiles :p
10:50:23  <LordAro> (though alberth also did a lot of that)
10:50:47  <michi_cc> One is easy, path signals. But the other is a bit more obscure :)
10:51:19  <LordAro> signals was ringing a bell
10:55:46  <michi_cc> The more obscure but highly user visible thing is that I'm the sod that implemented the current 32bpp EZ NewGRF format.
10:56:11  <LordAro> i could've sworn that was peter1138
10:56:50  <michi_cc> peter I think did the zoom/32bpp stuff. But the NewGRF container stuff (instead of the old PNG overlay) was by me.
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11:09:02  <peter1138> sorry :(
11:10:35  <andythenorth> but how else could we have aBase? :)
11:10:39  <peter1138> I actually thought removing PNG was me
11:10:46  <peter1138> Because it was so damn slow.
11:11:19  <peter1138> Maybe we had both at that point.
11:12:00  <peter1138> Yeah, cos I'm fairly sure I didn't add the 32bpp GRF container.
11:12:21  <peter1138> I think changing how the overlays worked was me as well.
11:12:47  <peter1138> Basically everything I do makes this game worse
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11:14:14  <andythenorth> except the things that don't :D
11:14:41  <andythenorth> was it lunch?
11:16:31  <andythenorth> what if pax vehicles could set a maximum trip distance?
11:16:44  <andythenorth> so vehicles without toilets...passengers would get off at a station
11:16:59  * andythenorth adds extra un-needed narrative element to the gameplay idea
11:17:46  <andythenorth> hmm, what if there is no station? :o
11:17:52  <andythenorth> what if there is no spoon? :o
11:19:37  <michi_cc> peter1138: 32bpp GRF container was me. I didn't look into the commit history, but it is entirely possible that we removed the PNG loading only after the GRF stuff.
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11:20:24  <michi_cc> 32bpp CC overlays was you I think.
11:23:52  <TrueBrain> And did I do the 32bpp blitters? Can't remember.. remember I reworked them :p
11:25:48  <andythenorth> could we have the vehicle cargo aging factor affect only the aging of the packet on that leg, and use that for leg payment calculation?
11:26:02  <andythenorth> and just calculate entire route aging using 185 rate?
11:26:34  <andythenorth> TL;DR setting fast aging in a large cdist network is FAIL, because it leads to a lot of very old cargo packets on the network
11:26:55  <michi_cc> Oh, and sorry, vehicle cargo ageing factor was me I think (and aircraft range, so it's not only peter that makes the game worse :P)
11:27:30  <andythenorth> and refit at stations :)
11:27:36  <andythenorth> iirc
11:27:48  <andythenorth> and YACD!
11:27:50  <michi_cc> Ah yeah, all the bad features :)
11:27:55  <andythenorth> so awful, YACD ruined the game
11:28:13  <andythenorth> revert YACD!
11:29:16  <andythenorth> oh UK news
11:32:47  <TrueBrain> Seems I did write 32bpp blitter .. so that means we are all to blame on this 32bpp bla? :D
11:33:08  <TrueBrain> So nobody has to feel bad or we can all feel equally bad? :p
11:33:37  <michi_cc> See, scientifically proven that we all just make the game worse :D
11:33:50  <TrueBrain> I agree :D
11:33:53  <TrueBrain> We are the worst
11:38:10  <andythenorth> I did NRT
11:38:24  <Wolf01> Me too
11:38:25  <andythenorth> are we worst equally?
11:38:30  <andythenorth> or are some more worst than others?
11:38:33  <andythenorth> worst among equals?
11:39:13  <TrueBrain> I wrote the initial code for 4kx4k .. :p
11:39:28  <Wolf01> I wrote transparency options
11:39:52  <TrueBrain> So many regrets :D
11:41:42  <Timberwolf> You all put the code for NRT and EZ in there, but it'd have been fine if someone hadn't come along and used it :p
11:42:28  <TrueBrain> Hahaha
11:42:35  <TrueBrain> So the users are to blame :D
11:42:48  <Wolf01> Yes
11:43:54  <LordAro> etc
11:50:34  <andythenorth> so...cargo packets are aged cumulatively across transfer legs
11:50:40  <andythenorth> but not on stations while waiting
11:58:46  <nielsm> posted a thing here:
11:59:17  <TrueBrain> Someone should review my DorpsGek patch so it announces that for you :)
12:00:04  <andythenorth> nielsm that would be cool eye candy :)
12:00:38  <nielsm> I really think having the title screen suddenly split into 4 viewports that follow each their vehicle would be cool
12:01:56  <andythenorth> have I understood correctly, cargo aging is cumulative across each transfer leg?
12:02:04  <andythenorth> days_in_transit seems to relevant var
12:02:08  <nielsm> yes
12:02:12  <nielsm> it just adds up
12:02:28  <nielsm> and actual payment calculation only happens when the cargo is delivered
12:02:43  <nielsm> all the transfer credits is smoke and mirrors
12:02:45  <andythenorth> but leg profit also uses days_in_transit
12:03:02  <andythenorth> oh wait, when are leg vehicles credited with profit?
12:03:42  <nielsm> they are given the fake profit when they drop off (transfer) the cargo
12:03:56  <nielsm> but they never have real income
12:04:38  <andythenorth> hmm
12:05:22  <andythenorth> I have a serious idea about aging per leg for the calculation (i.e a separate leg aging counter)
12:05:36  <andythenorth> and I have less serious but maybe better suggestion for throwing out vehicle profit
12:05:46  <andythenorth> could we just assign vehicle profit by some statistical means?
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12:06:23  <andythenorth> 'company earnt this much this year, utilisation of this vehicle was X of total cargo transported, so assign it profit X/N'
12:07:12  <andythenorth> one solution to 'pax vehicles cannot be levelled out into a sandbox' would be to throw out the profit factor that makes one vehicle OP
12:07:20  <peter1138> TrueBrain, 12:33 < TrueBrain> So nobody has to feel bad or we can all feel equally bad? :p
12:07:25  <nielsm> you mean like this?
12:07:31  <peter1138> TrueBrain, well technically I removed a bit of it, so... don't blame me :-)
12:07:35  <peter1138> It's just EZ... Shit.
12:07:48  <andythenorth> nielsm yes, I had seen that before and had it in mind :)
12:08:05  <andythenorth> peter1138 2x is quite nice TBH, just a lot of work
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12:09:21  <peter1138> 2x is good, yes.
12:09:33  <peter1138> But only because zooming into 4x makes it pixely ;)
12:10:14  <LordAro> smooth movement when?
12:11:03  <andythenorth>
12:11:05  <andythenorth> 2x
12:11:06  <peter1138> subpixels eh?
12:11:10  * andythenorth will not be doing 2x
12:11:16  <peter1138> I have looked before but...
12:11:17  <andythenorth> but if we lived 200 years I might
12:12:11  <peter1138> Can't you just use 3D models now? We have OpenGL after all.
12:12:12  <andythenorth> lunch!
12:12:27  <peter1138> I already had a mug of noodles.
12:12:35  <andythenorth> voxicles
12:14:39  <andythenorth> so (1) reset aging per leg or (2) let vehicles define a 'protected from aging' period separate to aging rate (3) redo current vehicle profit, using some other factor
12:14:45  <andythenorth> (4) do nothing
12:14:47  <andythenorth> options!
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12:15:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
12:16:42  <andythenorth> (5) mess about with vehicles affecting cargo rating in some fancy way that will go wrong
12:16:48  <andythenorth> (station rating)
12:18:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
12:18:40  <peter1138> andythenorth, move on to something more important!
12:19:53  <andythenorth> got stuck :)
12:20:25  <peter1138> Is it all about having a restaurant car and making it worth using?
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12:23:44  <nielsm> andythenorth: how about instead of making the first N days travel "free" on a vehicle, instead make the vehicle cap travel time, or have it be tiered?
12:23:58  <andythenorth> peter1138 nah restaurant car is sorted
12:24:12  <andythenorth> it's about e.g. metro vs. normal train
12:24:20  <andythenorth> or ferry vs. nice ship
12:25:02  <andythenorth> nielsm explain more? :)
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12:31:35  <andythenorth> profit per cargo linkgraph?
12:31:37  <nielsm> andythenorth: by having cargo age fast for the first N days on board, but slowly after that, you give the vehicle an advantage for longer journeys but none for short (or even a disadvantage for short)
12:32:11  <nielsm> which could e.g. also simulate the time taken to get seated and comfortable in a long distance coach but after that you can just half sleep
12:33:03  * andythenorth tries to envisage network effect of that
12:33:14  <andythenorth> so every leg would impose a steep amount of initial aging
12:33:31  <andythenorth> this would prioritise making direct connections without transfers?
12:34:03  <peter1138> Meh, what's the issue?
12:34:17  <nielsm> wow
12:34:24  <nielsm> wrong chat
12:34:25  <peter1138> If you mix different types in different legs, then the overall aging is all that matters anyway.
12:34:39  <peter1138> Sorry!
12:35:03  <andythenorth> it does what now? :)
12:35:19  <andythenorth> if the first leg has aged the cargo to say...255...the other legs aging is irrelevant?
12:36:34  <peter1138> Yes. but if it's 255 then it's been moving for a long time anyway.
12:37:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
12:37:56  <TrueBrain> sorry for the long reply :P
12:38:43  <andythenorth> the issue is that pax transport needs high capacity vehicles for cities, but they are then OP for every possible route
12:38:58  <andythenorth> for freight I levelled out the vehicles so you pick by colour or appearance or whatever
12:39:26  <andythenorth> the only factor I can level with is aging.  It works for point-to-point but is a shit show with complex cdist networks
12:39:35  <peter1138> TrueBrain, yes
12:40:45  <andythenorth> I could just patch out the display of 'profit per vehicle' and this issue would be...gone :P
12:40:55  <andythenorth> new setting!
12:40:57  <andythenorth> hide profit!
12:41:02  <TrueBrain> peter1138: yes I should be sorry? :P
12:41:19  <peter1138> I didn't mention threads there :/
12:41:26  <TrueBrain> nielsm did
12:41:33  <TrueBrain> that is why I replied to him?
12:41:34  <TrueBrain> :D
12:41:43  <peter1138> "for you all"
12:41:59  <TrueBrain> we say in Dutch: "wie de schoen past trekt hem aan"
12:42:11  <TrueBrain> it was mostly for the OP, as he has been dazzling in OpenTTD code lately
12:42:23  <TrueBrain> so I was hoping to stimulate him sufficiently that he want to take a crack at this :)
12:42:31  <TrueBrain> but feel free to feel including in the "you all" peter1138 :)
12:42:47  <peter1138> Also I was also thinking it's probably not impossible for this hang to occur while trying to read a sprite to display, in which case any threading would be moot.
12:43:04  <TrueBrain> OpenGFX is already loaded at this point
12:43:11  <TrueBrain> it won't work for the baseset, no :)
12:43:13  <peter1138> But no, don't be sorry for the reply, it is correct.
12:43:20  <TrueBrain> \o/
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12:43:30  <TrueBrain> right, now I need to do social stuff in real life ... wish me luck!
12:43:38  <peter1138> This isn't real?
12:44:02  <andythenorth> wow
12:44:09  <andythenorth> TB is real :o
12:44:18  <andythenorth> what day is it again?
12:44:25  <peter1138> Friday. Already.
12:44:53  <LordAro> :o
12:44:55  <peter1138> Which means I have to pick up my partner from work, and then it's... more coding.
12:45:07  <peter1138> And forget about the bike.
12:45:22  <LordAro> :(
12:45:32  <peter1138> Okay, heavy rain at 6pm anyway.
12:45:52  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
12:45:52  <peter1138> And 5 degree C tomorrow. FML.
12:46:06  <peter1138> Sunday colder. F...
12:46:33  <andythenorth> livestream day!
12:46:33  <andythenorth> ?
12:50:13  *** Flygon__ has quit IRC
12:53:44  <peter1138> Lifrestream
12:54:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #47: Add: translate Discussion events into IRC messages
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13:10:25  <peter1138> Hmm, shall I just buy a new derailleur?
13:12:13  <peter1138> Although really that bike needs a teardown and rebuild.
13:13:07  <peter1138> £82, not too bad.
13:13:15  <peter1138> Out of stock. Hmm.
13:14:20  <peter1138> And PlanetX doesn't believe in stocking anything like a range of products.
13:14:58  *** APTX_ has quit IRC
13:15:32  <peter1138> Hmm, Merlin have the old version that I have.
13:15:42  <peter1138> List. But out of stock, dan.
13:15:43  <peter1138> *damn
13:16:05  <peter1138> Everything is out of stock. Is this Brexit?
13:16:12  <LordAro> nah, covid
13:16:21  <LordAro> there are still no bikes available anywhere
13:16:47  <peter1138> Oh well.
13:16:48  <LordAro> anything from the far east is extremely difficult to come by
13:16:54  <peter1138> I'll just have to carry on riding the touring bike.
13:17:03  <LordAro> it'll make you strong
13:17:12  <LordAro> think how fast you'll be when you switch back again :p
13:17:16  <peter1138> Basically the spring part of my Ultegra is not right, so the chain is slack and will come off.
13:17:41  <peter1138> And you can't really take them apart to clean up and grease inside.
13:17:47  <LordAro> worth seeing if a LBS can fix it?
13:17:55  <peter1138> Maybe, but I hate them.
13:18:02  <LordAro> or even if they have a (probably expensive) derailleur?
13:18:27  <peter1138> Because I ride my bikes instead of keeping them in immaculate perfect condition, they always berate me and tell me I'm doing it wrong.
13:18:47  <peter1138> You DARED to ride your bike in winter!?
13:19:07  <peter1138> Well that bits allowed
13:19:20  <peter1138> It's the fact I don't then immediately strip it down to bare components they don't like.
13:20:07  <peter1138> Mate, it's 3 deg C, raining, 7pm, and I need to use the bike tomorrow morning. Fuck off.
13:20:33  <peter1138> Of course, that is all no longer an issue :p
13:20:49  <Timberwolf> I remember a co-worker telling me that he had access to three vehicles: a Toyota Verso, a Nissan Leaf and a Brompton folding bicycle. Of the three, the Brompton had by far the highest annual maintenance cost.
13:21:17  <peter1138> Yes, bikes are stupid.
13:22:05  <Timberwolf> My hybrid seems happy enough, my mountain bike is a disaster area and spends its time sitting at the back of the garage until I have enough attention to book it in at the LBS.
13:22:17  <peter1138> I was considering a belt-drive bike with internal hub gears, but 1) expensive 2) it's still gonna get grotty and go wrong.
13:22:28  <LordAro> peter1138: yeah, i know the feeling
13:22:39  <LordAro> my bike has been in need of a clean for about a month now
13:22:55  <Timberwolf> The MTB is mostly because I used it lots, then didn't, and so everything is deflated and out of fluid.
13:24:04  <Timberwolf> And the gears have unadjusted themselves so of course the shifter detents now mean "1st", "also 1st", "2nd or 3rd, depends", "3.48th" and so on.
13:24:14  <peter1138> Always the way.
13:24:31  <peter1138> Yeah, I'll need to clean out the goop and refresh it when I finally get out on the MTB.
13:41:23  <andythenorth> FML so not only is Iron Horse completely flawed, and I need to learn from others
13:41:29  <andythenorth> now LC proves FIRS is fucked too
13:41:33  <andythenorth> I might give up
13:41:34  <andythenorth> TBH
13:42:18  <andythenorth> pls send lolz
13:42:25  <andythenorth> express delivery
13:42:52  <andythenorth> oops deleted my forum attachment, 'delete' is next to 'inline'
13:42:55  <andythenorth> sily
13:46:46  <FLHerne> lolz
13:55:56  <andythenorth> do I write a patch?
14:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> usually with letters a-z, some numbers, maybe a few whitespaces
14:07:39  <andythenorth> thanks
14:07:51  <andythenorth> unrelated, wondering if leg profit should be default 100% since
14:07:57  <andythenorth> what's the rationale for 75%?
14:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 100% is generally bad if you don't have a direct connection
14:10:46  <andythenorth> do we know why?
14:10:53  <andythenorth> or is it just an established fact?
14:11:03  <andythenorth> shall I ask on the livestream?
14:15:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: 100% assumes the combined route is perfectly straight, which it isn't
14:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> perfectly straight, and same speed
14:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause> any deviation from that will result in a negative penalty
14:16:27  <FLHerne> That incremental thing spreads the differences between the estimated profit % and the actual one across intermediate stops, so the discrepancy is smaller
14:16:30  <andythenorth> so 75% is the correct value?
14:16:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "correct" value
14:16:57  <FLHerne> "correct" depends on your network, I think it's about right
14:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it highly depends on how intricate your network connections are
14:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i frequently go as low as 30%
14:17:25  <andythenorth> so how would I determine the correct value?
14:17:57  <andythenorth> niels made this
14:18:10  <FLHerne> If your last-leg vehicles are losing money, it's too high
14:18:12  <andythenorth> to illustrate payment
14:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> since there is no "correct" value, the question how to find it is irrelevant
14:18:19  <FLHerne> Well, each subsequent leg
14:18:22  <FLHerne> now
14:18:25  <andythenorth> how can there not be a correct value?
14:18:32  <andythenorth> a value has to be chosen
14:18:40  <FLHerne> Well, there's a correct value for each journey
14:19:04  <FLHerne> But you can only set it for the entire game, so it's never the right value for any particular journey
14:19:14  <andythenorth> so why is it editable?
14:19:18  <andythenorth> legacy?
14:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no
14:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes sense to adjust it
14:19:47  <andythenorth> but to what?
14:19:51  <FLHerne> If all your routes are stupidly indirect, it should be lower
14:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> just the optimal value may be different for different parts of your network
14:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have to make compromises
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14:20:21  <FLHerne> It's only cosmetic anyway
14:20:58  <andythenorth> so this accounts for e.g. station A being away from the direct line on origin->source?
14:21:03  <FLHerne> In theory, the game could keep statistics and determine a better estimate for each route, maybe stored in the linkgraph somehow
14:21:07  <FLHerne> But no-one cares
14:21:09  <FLHerne> Yes
14:21:24  <FLHerne> s/route/leg/
14:21:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, an adaptive value could be implemented
14:21:25  <andythenorth> can't be no-one cares :)
14:21:33  <andythenorth> otherwise we could eliminate the setting
14:21:39  <FLHerne> No-one cares enough to implement it :p
14:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if transfer credit is negative, lower it. or something
14:21:43  <andythenorth> there must be humans who know how to choose the correct value :)
14:21:46  <FLHerne> The setting kind of works
14:22:22  <FLHerne> enough to make people care too little to want to fix it properly
14:22:55  <andythenorth> fair
14:25:05  * andythenorth tests it
14:26:57  <andythenorth> for newgrf dev I need to leave it on 75% I think
14:27:20  <andythenorth> I just ran it on 100% and for a reasonable pax network topology that's better
14:28:16  <andythenorth> if the network is city bus/tram/metro <-> mainline train (100 tiles) <-> city bus/tram/metro
14:28:29  <andythenorth> the effect on mainline trains is quite substantial
14:28:38  <andythenorth> about 25% :P
14:29:15  <andythenorth> I am assuming it's all net the same though, summed across the network?
14:35:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> final payment is unaffected, just how it is distributed between the vehicles
14:35:38  <andythenorth> 'accounting'
14:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
14:40:08  * andythenorth now curious if 'profit per cargo graph' would be useful
14:40:23  <andythenorth> this idea that every vehicle has to be individually profitable is a bit blah blah
14:41:00  <andythenorth> cargo graph = connected linkgraph
14:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> why can't i find an 1.11.0 tag in git?
14:45:19  <LordAro> because you haven't updated recently?
14:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i just made a git fetch
14:45:37  <nielsm> git fetch --tags
14:45:45  <nielsm> I think you need?
14:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause>
14:46:38  <peter1138> Radio still boring
14:46:49  <andythenorth> upstream?
14:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> git fetch --tags says nothing
14:47:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "master" is upstream
14:47:14  <LordAro> peter1138: it'll be like this for at least a day, iirc
14:47:27  <andythenorth> 1.11.0
14:47:27  <andythenorth> 1.11.0-RC1
14:47:27  <andythenorth> 1.11.0-beta1
14:47:27  <andythenorth> 1.11.0-beta2
14:47:45  <andythenorth> maybe I have a different configuration
14:47:57  <andythenorth> I have openttd as upstream
14:48:11  <andythenorth> fetch and rebase got me 1.11.0
14:52:51  <EER> works for me (and my head is definitely very, very old):
14:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i'm fairly sure i'm using git fetch incorrectly
14:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> just i don't find anything how to do it correctly
14:53:49  * andythenorth wonders what the game is like if vehicle profit is hidden
14:53:52  <andythenorth> could patch for that eh
14:55:36  <andythenorth> I also now understand why one transfer route is negative on the final leg
14:55:38  <EER> git tag -l?
14:55:43  <andythenorth> as it heads back in the direction of the source
14:56:50  <peter1138> I found some old energy gels. They are expired. I wonder if they'll actually taste any worse...
14:56:56  <peter1138> (I think, actually, yes)
15:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause> EER: well, i said it's not there.
15:03:08  <michi_cc> Do you have more than one remote? If yes, try git fetch --all --tags
15:06:00  <EER> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, do you have the commits? Like: git log bd80ec7cff2f2186b133ea4bee431cb1a2f1fc95 (this is the tag 1.11.0)
15:07:05  <EER> For me it shows the tag in the log as well:
15:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i switched to master and made git pull, now i got this:
15:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but there must be a way to do that with git fetch
15:08:42  <michi_cc> --all
15:09:00  <michi_cc> I.e. fetch all remotes, not just upstream of the currently checkout out branch.
15:09:37  <peter1138> Yea
15:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same remote. it didn't fetch all the new branches
15:11:01  <Artea> hello
15:25:22  <peter1138> 100 changed files with 324 additions and 3422 deletions
15:25:28  <peter1138> Slightly scary PR, that
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15:43:55  <glx> but we like these
15:44:16  <glx> should be a hell to rebase a branch
15:44:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] OwXi opened issue #188: [th_TH] Translator access request
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15:46:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #188: [th_TH] Translator access request
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15:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what did i do wrong now?
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15:49:22  <andythenorth> more coffee?
15:49:39  *** EER has quit IRC
15:50:36  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: I remember seeing that in a PR comment
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15:52:26  <glx> <-- there
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15:53:30  <andythenorth> so...if I wanted to increase run costs if profit increases....
15:53:31  <glx> fixed by #8925
15:53:36  <andythenorth> what's a suitable formula?
15:54:05  <andythenorth> profit is an 80+ var
15:54:57  <andythenorth> dunno if it's available per vehicle, or per consist
15:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> new question: how the fuck do i download a standalone patch from github?
15:59:01  <andythenorth> there's usually a way to get the raw diff somewhere obscure
15:59:25  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly... but where?
15:59:34  <andythenorth> from a PR?
16:00:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause you can't just checkout the PR?
16:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i would have to rebase that and stuff
16:01:08  <michi_cc> LordAro: Your requested reminder is here :)
16:01:17  <andythenorth> livestream soon!
16:01:38  <andythenorth> hmm, is there any way to adjust how much a train earns depending on distance travelled?
16:01:55  <andythenorth> I have looked in 80+ vars but I can't find anything useful
16:02:32  <andythenorth> there are pointers to station orders, but I don't think I can do the manhattan distance of those in a vehicle grf?
16:03:23  <glx> <andythenorth> there are pointers to station orders <-- I'd say don't read that
16:03:28  * Timberwolf has started creative reversed versions of all his station buildings.
16:03:38  <Timberwolf> This upsets the sprite sorter less than I'd dreaded!
16:04:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] keyvanlp opened issue #8979: well my game cant start after i downloaded it
16:06:46  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf what am i looking at here
16:09:00  <andythenorth> I can't see much of use for this problem here
16:09:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8979: well my game cant start after i downloaded it
16:09:16  <andythenorth> I basically want to implement some kind of range
16:09:32  <glx> I fear it's yet another opengl issue
16:11:19  <glx> but the trace points to another area
16:17:27  <michi_cc> I tried to reproduce the bootstrap crash, but I failed to make it crash in any way :(
16:18:22  <Timberwolf> supermop_Home: The station sprite has a set of steps, which is hidden when behind a platform but overlaps the tile in front when it's standalone (so you don't have a weird door at platform height if you build it in that orientation)
16:20:04  <nielsm> random idea: try to detect if the game was trying to start up and crashed, and if it failed to start try to do some kind of fail safe settings (like opengl off)
16:22:45  <glx> could be laptop switching gpu on the fly ? (dunno if it's possible)
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16:27:35  <LordAro> glx: michi_cc: perhaps as a temporary workaround, just protect against such errors and switch back to non-gl? is that possible?
16:27:47  <LordAro> michi_cc: thanks :) leaving office now, should be back in good time
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16:29:40  <andythenorth> quak
16:29:55  <glx> but if I can get dmp from new crash it may help to track the issue
16:30:30  <frosch123> moo
16:31:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: says Windows 2000.
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16:32:57  <glx> 2000 means XP usually (but they stopped showing it)
16:33:17  <frosch123> isn't xp newer than 2000?
16:34:08  <glx> it is
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16:40:54  <andythenorth> so shall I just make a cargo aging parameter in Iron Horse, and let players tune it for themselves?
16:41:24  <glx> and handle bug reports ?
16:42:11  <andythenorth> well the bug report would be closed as 'change the parameter'
16:43:49  <supermop_Home> sounds fine
16:45:13  <andythenorth> the cargo aging is so counter intuitive :D
16:45:29  <andythenorth> it really seems to affect the 'next hop' vehicle more than it should
16:45:44  <andythenorth> possibly because of the 75% leg profit setting value
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16:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i once had a patch that pays each leg individually (no transfer credit)
16:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> opens up an exploit, though
16:48:51  <andythenorth> presumably that isn't a route we'd go down?  Due to the exploits?
16:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely
16:49:19  <andythenorth> the FIRS pax payment curve is relativel flat for first 45-50 days
16:49:21  <andythenorth> then steepens
16:49:35  <andythenorth> I think if a vehicle with high age rate is first leg
16:50:19  <andythenorth> (for the leg length in my test game)
16:50:30  <andythenorth> then the first vehicle is in the flatter part of the slope
16:50:43  <andythenorth> but the subsequent vehicles only have to age a bit more to be on the steep part of the slope
16:51:00  <andythenorth> also the first leg will get 75% of a good rate
16:51:25  <andythenorth> and the second leg will get 75% of a worse rate, and have the good first leg subtracted also
16:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> then you should set it lower
16:51:58  <andythenorth> the curve?
16:52:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the %
16:52:19  <andythenorth> I can't balance the grf against a specific client setting?
16:52:26  <andythenorth> I need to balance against default?
16:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:53:03  <andythenorth> also that might not help the last leg
16:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing you need to balance is the final payment
16:53:23  <andythenorth> hmm the last leg will be fine, ignore that comment
16:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the transfer % has no gameplay effect, other than making certain vehicle balances non-negative
16:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> everything should be balanced ignoring the %, and it should be the last thing to be changed
16:54:20  <andythenorth> I think I leave it at default 75%
16:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> like said, useful values for the % highly depend on HOW you build
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16:56:03  <andythenorth> I'm going to ignore it, it's just cosmetic
16:56:04  <frosch123> make it a per-orderlist setting :p
16:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said, right?
16:57:49  <andythenorth> wish I could think of a way to age on a per-leg basis, whilst still being able to do the final calculation on total trip time
16:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's "impossible"
16:59:01  <andythenorth> mathematically
16:59:05  <andythenorth> I mean we could just fake it
16:59:11  <andythenorth> the accounting is all cosmetic?
16:59:17  <andythenorth> we could make it a setting
16:59:22  <andythenorth> account: 'happy'
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17:03:15  <andythenorth> "train profit: yes"
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17:14:20  <andythenorth> well the blue train should be the least profitable
17:14:45  <andythenorth> I tried everything possible, except removing the split between 'fast, lower capacity' and 'slower, higher capacity'
17:15:03  <andythenorth> eliminating the difference is the only idea I can think of now
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17:20:45  <andythenorth> JOIN THE CLUB
17:20:54  <andythenorth> did I remember correctly?
17:22:19  <andythenorth> the / our /s
17:22:27  <peter1138> Yes one of them.
17:24:21  <andythenorth> hmm can newgrf read average age of vehicle cargo?
17:24:23  * andythenorth looks
17:26:12  <andythenorth> 80+ 3F ?
17:26:21  <andythenorth> 	Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units
17:26:53  <andythenorth> won't work with transfers, cargo will already be aged
17:27:10  <andythenorth> beer time?
17:29:05  <peter1138> Works fine with transfers, it won't necessarily be "fully aged"
17:30:15  <nielsm> here's a long video of not much:
17:30:26  <andythenorth> I like it!
17:30:31  * andythenorth watches it
17:30:57  <andythenorth> it's quite therapeutic
17:31:04  <andythenorth> it would be funny to make a map that can loop
17:31:29  <nielsm> make one timed to the title tune
17:31:36  <nielsm> (which one of them?)
17:32:55  <nielsm> also notice how in the panning section, the logo pans away
17:32:57  <andythenorth> 3F would work fine with transfers, but not for the idea I have, which is "increase running costs if cargo aged > 10 on this leg"
17:33:22  <andythenorth> I think vehicles should just leave the actual cargo aging alone, it has really really odd effects in big networks
17:33:48  <nielsm> I think I need takeout pizza today, something greasy
17:33:59  <andythenorth> but manipulating run costs could do gameplay stuff, player doesn't need to know that it's not the actual payment
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17:41:59  <andythenorth> hmm is custom profit cb called for transfers?
17:42:42  <LordAro> found LC's steam account
17:43:06  <andythenorth> we have to not bully LC :P
17:43:18  <andythenorth> they're well-intentioned contributions
17:44:29  <TrueBrain> LordAro: its the anti-LC, I would argue :P
17:44:55  <andythenorth> I think the cb is called for transfers
17:45:02  <andythenorth> it's in GetTransportedGoodsIncome
17:46:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:46:51  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:47:32  <andythenorth> scope of CB 39 is cargos?
17:47:45  <andythenorth>
17:49:27  * andythenorth thinks yes
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17:54:08  <andythenorth> would it be terribly expensive to store the age of the cargo when the current vehicle loaded it?
17:54:18  <andythenorth> then there could be a var 'amount cargo aged on this leg'
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17:56:08  <andythenorth> then above a threshold run costs could increase
17:56:13  <peter1138> I fixed all the scaling issues.
17:56:17  <andythenorth> simulating ... e.g toilets are full :P
17:56:18  <andythenorth> oof
17:56:30  <andythenorth> realism people could degrade their cargo sprites :P
17:56:36  <peter1138> Set OpenTTD to half my screen resolution, enabled full-screen, everything is FINE.
17:56:38  <andythenorth> melting snowman
17:56:45  <frosch123> <- it's live!
17:56:53  <andythenorth> \o/
17:57:19  <peter1138> Urgh, I have to load proprietory software
17:58:12  <andythenorth> I am doing it in my browser
17:58:23  <andythenorth> my proprietary browser
17:58:34  <peter1138> Where's the DING DING DING
17:58:40  <frosch123> on your proprietary cpu?
17:59:09  <andythenorth> proprietary CPU, proprietary keyboard
18:04:33  <peter1138> Proprietory monitor
18:05:19  <supermop_Home> new griff
18:14:09  <andythenorth> new brrrrrrrrr
18:23:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8977: Crash when increasing max zoom
18:25:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is an imposter of you in the hat
18:25:23  <frosch123> "do you plan to do something with timetables and cargo aging?" <- not andy
18:25:42  <andythenorth> I noticed :)
18:25:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: score is terrible, chat is actually asking good questions
18:25:52  <andythenorth> I don't have a sock puppet :|
18:26:50  <nielsm> can you pretend someone asked why path signals take so much cpu that they are really bad for multiplayer servers?
18:30:12  <frosch123> no cheating
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18:34:39  <andythenorth> most controversial feature :D
18:34:40  <andythenorth> lol
18:34:58  <frosch123> truebrain is smart, he knows left/right on a stream
18:35:27  <supermop_Home> andythenorth is the most controversial feature
18:35:42  <LordAro> ^
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18:42:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #8980: Feature: Multiple rotating views on title screen
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18:56:36  <Wolf01> Oh the stream... did I miss something?
18:57:38  <andythenorth>
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19:01:30  <Wolf01> It would be cool to have stream transcripts
19:06:04  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf what beer is that
19:06:13  <Wolf01> Lol
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19:15:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexander-novo opened issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
19:17:46  <Timberwolf> supermop_Home: Redchurch Bethnal Pale Ale.
19:18:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
19:22:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexander-novo commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
19:26:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
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19:38:34  <gelignite> i don't have a github account so i add my comments here regarding #8981: build a depot, buy two trains, add track (e.g. 8 tiles), place path signal on for example tile 5, start both trains, first one will leave the depot and second one will follow when first one passes the path signal. when first one reaches the end of the track it will reverse and then stop "waiting for free path". I guess thats what happened here, as he said he
19:38:34  <gelignite> changed the signals direction.
19:39:18  <gelignite> once "waiting for free path" is triggered the trains stall even if you remove the signal
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19:54:56  <nielsm> gelignite: I'm not sure I follow what you mean to do
19:55:22  <nielsm> the problem in the bug report is a train on the way into the depot somehow waiting on something
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19:57:55  <gelignite> his screenshot shows "waiting for free path" for the train entering/leaving the depot and he said he changed the (one-way) path signal's direction. i described a way to reproduce a similar "waiting indefinitely" scenario which probably has the same root cause.
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20:09:04  <andythenorth> michi_cc mysterious cargo aging idea? :)
20:10:20  <michi_cc> It's not really mysterious, but probably more like 'punch cargodist' :) Draft PR to throw away maybe later or tomorrow.
20:11:03  <andythenorth> I did hours of testing different trains and aging periods on the same cdist network now :)
20:11:09  <andythenorth> I stayed up way too late
20:11:22  <andythenorth> can't tell if the problem is me, Iron Horse, or cdist :)
20:12:41  <TrueBrain> <- some people are total twats
20:12:51  <TrueBrain> especially this "Steam" user that replied and I had to delete ...
20:12:53  <TrueBrain> you know who you are :P
20:13:15  <andythenorth> I didn't figure out how to change my username yet
20:13:36  <andythenorth> I am outraged you deleted my reply
20:13:41  <LordAro> looks like they don't understand the steam discussions
20:13:45  <LordAro> not that i do either
20:13:53  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it really was not okay :)
20:13:58  <andythenorth> steam discussion is 'rudimentary'
20:13:59  <TrueBrain> keep that toxic in tt-forums pretty please :)
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20:14:34  <andythenorth> ok
20:14:53  <TrueBrain> cheers :)
20:15:13  <andythenorth> I get a bit triggered by that kind of rudeness, I know how hard Kamnet is working
20:15:24  <andythenorth> and it's so the opposite of trying to astroturf everything
20:16:15  * andythenorth should be the bigger grownup again
20:16:56  <frosch123> i thought there was some automatism to only keep 100 open discussions, and move the rest to archive
20:17:05  <frosch123> but now you make me think someone does that manually :o
20:17:36  <TrueBrain> the latter :)
20:17:42  <TrueBrain> kamnet is moderating the discussions really well
20:18:40  <jellyknight> nielsm, my computer crashed. i just added a few screenshots here (as said, maybe that has the same root cause and may help you pinpoint the issue)
20:18:42  <frosch123> i would never dare to attempt :)
20:18:50  *** jellyknight is now known as gelignite
20:19:18  <TrueBrain> mostly they are really friendly
20:19:22  <TrueBrain> lot of people helping other people
20:19:26  <TrueBrain> I am somewhat surprised
20:19:31  <TrueBrain> the early days showed a different type of people
20:19:33  <TrueBrain> but .. yeah
20:19:49  <TrueBrain> just the one-off "they-did-me-a-wrong-I-will-tell-them" dude :)
20:19:50  <frosch123> i wanted to ask on the stream "what are your favorite kind of contributions", but firgured the answers would exclude people :)
20:20:18  <TrueBrain> I liked the question about gender .. I realised at that moment I don't know much about most of you :P
20:20:25  <TrueBrain> just that you exist when I have my computer on :D
20:20:38  <andythenorth> the simulation knows what gender we identify as
20:20:41  <andythenorth> nobody else needs to
20:20:43  <frosch123> there is an occasional "her" in irc
20:20:56  <frosch123> and always some samu to get ask for confirmation :)
20:21:12  <andythenorth> so could cargo packet also store cargo_age_when_loaded (alongside cargo_age_counter)?
20:21:23  * andythenorth has ideas
20:21:30  <andythenorth> does that bloat vehicles horribly?
20:21:53  * andythenorth assumes a lot of cargo packets
20:22:27  <LordAro> < Taneb> LordAro: going anti-clockwise from top-right you are sorted by paleness
20:23:04  <andythenorth> not beard cover?
20:23:06  <frosch123> is "paleness" are measure for "nerdyness"?
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20:24:47  <frosch123>
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20:26:07  <andythenorth> lol
20:26:41  <LordAro> i am mostly scuba diving
20:26:52  <LordAro> (because i actually have a shirt on when cycling)
20:27:05  <andythenorth> 80+ 3F is BF?
20:27:42  <frosch123> yes, but just write it in the code as expression, if it matters
20:29:34  <LordAro> glx: i think mingw build is broken from the std::wstring changes
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20:29:56  <LordAro> src/ini.cpp:56:36: error: no matching function for call to 'std::basic_ofstream<char>::basic_ofstream(std::wstring)'
20:30:12  <glx> I'll take a look
20:30:14  <LordAro> not quite sure what the solution is
20:30:47  <glx> I can build mingw from VS so it's easy to test
20:36:57  <peter1138> I am definitely Computer Programming right now.
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20:40:27  * andythenorth wonders how to add a newgrf var
20:40:33  <andythenorth> probably just some hex eh
20:41:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:41:44  <andythenorth> case 0x20: break; // not implemented
20:41:48  <andythenorth> are they reserved, or just unused?
20:41:58  <LordAro> TTDP thing, possibly?
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20:46:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- all variables are reserved, for specific purposes
20:49:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexander-novo commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
20:50:13  <andythenorth> so something like cargo_age_when_loaded would be 80+?
20:50:36  <frosch123> no, 40+
20:50:44  <andythenorth> ok
20:50:55  <frosch123> "80+" is essentially "never touch"
20:50:58  * andythenorth misunderstanding 'specially calculated' :)
20:51:05  <andythenorth> I should have guessed from other var numbers
20:51:08  <Artea> I miss all of you!
20:51:11  <Artea> missed
20:51:22  <frosch123> did you visit the ISS?
20:51:58  <michi_cc> Well, in TTDP, 80+x vars where basically raw memory access while 40+x vars had some kind of (minimal) logic to prepare the value.
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20:54:12  <andythenorth> if I do this properly it looks like it needs a savegame bump
20:54:19  <andythenorth> and probably it bloats cargo packets?
20:54:35  <andythenorth> this = adds cargo_age_when_loaded var
20:55:11  <andythenorth> or the VehicleCargoList does magic with cargo packet ages?
20:55:17  <frosch123> it sounds more like something you would store in the vehicle, not in the cargopacket
20:55:29  <frosch123> why does the cargopacket care about when it was loaded on the current vehicle?
20:55:39  <andythenorth> ok that clarifies :)
20:55:51  <andythenorth> the vehicle only needs to know one value once
20:55:59  <frosch123> but i am just randomly guessing, i have no idea what your goal is
20:56:13  <andythenorth> I want to try measuring how long cargo has been in transit on the current vehicle
20:56:22  <frosch123> do you want to draw "rotten cargo" sprites?
20:56:30  <andythenorth> no but I thought of it :)
20:56:42  <andythenorth> I want to increase running costs to account for the bar running out of beer
20:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is a fundamentally flawed approach (just my opinion)
20:56:47  <andythenorth> and the toilets being full
20:56:50  <frosch123> drop station rating because of the stink?
20:56:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause what approach isn't :)
20:57:24  <andythenorth> adjusting cargo aging has wildly unpredictable effects in complex cdist networks
20:57:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is "time since last service" :p
20:57:36  <andythenorth> a payment multiplier mathematically isn't possible
20:57:45  <andythenorth> adjusting aging per leg mathematically isn't possible
20:58:18  <andythenorth> frosch123 I could use it as a proxy for testing
20:58:44  <andythenorth> but this looks like something that could be tested in a patch, and quietly forgotten after we find out why it doesn't work
20:59:39  <andythenorth> if (cargo age - cargo age when loaded) > 20 { run cost = run cost * 5) or something
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21:10:55  <andythenorth> michi_cc sorry for complaining about cargo aging so much also :P
21:11:01  * andythenorth got a bit OCD
21:12:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexander-novo commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
21:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> andythenorth: there is "time since last service" :p <-- we should probably zero that if servicing is disabled?
21:16:03  <spnda> I know some of you are more experienced with git - would you say it's easy/possible to programmatically filter all commits that change files in a subfolder and discard all that don't? (Want to move it to another repo)
21:17:03  <frosch123> git log <dir> gives you the list of commits
21:17:24  <frosch123> then feed that list into "git rebase -i"
21:17:53  <frosch123> or just run a loop of cherry-picks
21:18:09  <frosch123> oh, cherry-pick even accepts a list
21:18:51  <frosch123> so it's just "git log <dir>", maybe with some fancy format-parameter to only print hashes, and then "xargs git cherry-pick"
21:19:29  <spnda> uh ok thanks, I'll try something based on that
21:19:57  <andythenorth> so the 40+ vars are all defined under VehicleGetVariable ?
21:20:34  <andythenorth> hmm that alt var 41 I wrote the loop unroll for :D
21:20:39  <andythenorth> nvm
21:20:47  * andythenorth flashbacks
21:21:00  <andythenorth> 0x4E looks unused
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21:21:52  <andythenorth> do we do convenience vars?
21:22:32  <andythenorth> like...this could be a word that returns cargo age when loaded in the first byte, and (cargo age - cargo when loaded) in the 2nd byte
21:22:41  <andythenorth> but then again...that's easy in nml
21:22:56  <frosch123> some people do. there are vars for "amount cargo transported" and "amount cargo produced". and some weirdos considered it necessary to add "percentage cargo transported"
21:23:24  <andythenorth> before nml it maybe made sense
21:23:31  <andythenorth> now it's easy inline?
21:23:45  <andythenorth> probably a bloated grf, but eh
21:25:00  <andythenorth> so when the vehicle loads, it would need to call DaysInTransit once, and cache that
21:25:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would definitely recommend to not limit "age" to a byte :p
21:25:21  <andythenorth> max value is 255 though?
21:25:24  <andythenorth> or we have plans?
21:25:59  <frosch123> it's not even 7 days ago, that we talked about extending it :p
21:26:18  <andythenorth> in COVID times, I can't remember past this morning :)
21:26:23  <frosch123> but then we learned that the cargopayment clamps the result in other places, so it made no sense
21:26:58  <andythenorth> a uint in the vehicle structure will be what in byte / word / dword terms?
21:27:03  <andythenorth> they don't relate like that?
21:27:17  <frosch123> i would consider "cargo age" and "time spent on this vehicle" more intuitive
21:27:17  <andythenorth> uint has no fixed size?
21:27:24  <frosch123> than "age when loaded"
21:27:37  <andythenorth> well it's more useful I guess
21:27:54  <andythenorth> more obvious
21:27:54  <Timberwolf> That's not how it's supposed to work.
21:27:57  <frosch123> don't use "uint" if you have a specific size in mind :)
21:28:06  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I like it!
21:29:18  <andythenorth> cargo refitting strikes again :)
21:29:26  <andythenorth> can we teach dorpsgek to count these?
21:30:00  <frosch123> make a PR to incomporate the cargoclasses from that pikka grf into ottd :)
21:31:15  <andythenorth> that's more of a direct solution than counting the issue occurence :P
21:32:15  <andythenorth> odd comment
21:32:20  <andythenorth> uint cargo_days_in_transit; ///< Cache for the sum of number of days in transit of each entity; comparable to man-hours.
21:32:29  <andythenorth> comparable to man-hours?
21:32:45  <andythenorth> comments :)
21:32:50  <frosch123> it's probably "amount * time"
21:33:09  <frosch123> you sum "amount * time" and "total time"
21:33:16  <frosch123> so you can compute "average age" in the end
21:33:19  <andythenorth> ok
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21:35:52  <andythenorth> would I need to do savegame conversion stuff if this was a proper patch?
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21:37:02  <andythenorth> can't think of a way to provide a meaningful value
21:37:10  <andythenorth> would have to just be 0 or -1 or something
21:37:29  * andythenorth trying to run before walking 
21:38:14  <TrueBrain> <- HD is still processing
21:38:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't make samuesque patches. no need to compute something that noone uses
21:39:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the titlegame does not move :p
21:39:46  <frosch123> is it still scanning for newgrf?
21:40:08  <TrueBrain> I know right :( Got too lazy :P
21:40:46  <frosch123> i wondered, i think there is a limited number of subjects for livestreams, so we need to rotate hosts more
21:40:59  <frosch123> maybe one stream with only PR authors, no devs :p
21:41:10  <TrueBrain> make it happen!
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21:42:23  <frosch123> i was looking for disagreement :)
21:42:42  <andythenorth> JGR is an obvious if JGR will do it
21:43:14  <andythenorth> we could also do one where we OpenTTD
21:43:35  <andythenorth> 👻
21:43:49  <frosch123> haha, i think there are people better at that than we
21:44:01  <andythenorth> that would be the funny part
21:44:57  <frosch123> no, i think the brand "dev stream" requires some "dev" subject. it's not an "ad" vehicle to give tb a job as full time streamer / influencer
21:45:15  <TrueBrain> no? Owh :(
21:45:21  <andythenorth> who gets the YT revenue anyway?
21:45:28  <andythenorth> or are we de-revenued?
21:45:55  <TrueBrain> the latter
21:46:30  <frosch123> ok, when it's hd, you can actually read tb's steam-integration blog
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21:47:51  <andythenorth> citymania stream
21:47:55  <andythenorth> live PR reviews
21:48:09  <spnda> its at 1080p60 now
21:48:24  <frosch123> stream: _dp_, pelya, cirdan: why do devs not accept our patches?
21:48:32  <frosch123> too mean?
21:49:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the blog is public :P
21:49:56  <frosch123> i doubt the average joe would find it
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21:50:10  <frosch123> though maybe you can find it by serarching for text snippets from it
21:50:32  <frosch123> "lifetime units returned: 0" <- i wonder, is that possible for free licenses?
21:50:43  <andythenorth> anyway it's nice getting nice comments in stream chat
21:50:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no clue wouldn't surprise me
21:50:57  <TrueBrain> some weirdo doing a refund :P
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21:51:46  <TrueBrain> lest check if I did a good job hiding some Steam details ..
21:51:49  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, I did :D Pfew :)
21:52:12  <TrueBrain> (login username etc)
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21:55:16  <TrueBrain> there was a drop in players during the Q&A
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21:55:22  <TrueBrain> it hurts our bottom line!!!
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22:02:43  <andythenorth> is sleep?
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22:12:14  <_dp_> I don't think I have even a single rejected pr actually...
22:12:33  <_dp_> zstdish stuff has a chance to be first I guess
22:14:21  <_dp_> I simply don't pr debatable stuff though
22:14:26  <frosch123> <- does twitch/yt go into "general" or into "development"?
22:20:59  <frosch123> TrueBrain: twitch page shows a countdown for next week :)
22:25:30  <TrueBrain> Oops .. already shut down my PC .. hope to remember it tomorrow :D
22:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: you're the opposite of me :)
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22:33:26  <glx> and my FTTH is fully dead now (installed less than a week ago)
22:35:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well. that can't happen in germany :p
22:36:32  <glx> I think it's the ONU but I'll call ISP tomorrow
22:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (as there's pretty much no FTTH anywhere)
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22:56:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8982: Feature: text filter for the industry directory
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22:57:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8982: Feature: text filter for the industry directory
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23:30:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #8981: Train never finishes entering depot, blocks itself from leaving depot.
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23:39:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel
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23:48:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel

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