Log for #openttd on 9th June 2021:
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07:20:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9338: Several code refactors of the SaveLoad code
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09:02:25  <peter1138> Amongst all those very old patches, and some more recent patches (only 10 years old...) I have nothing to do with ukwaypoints.
09:09:29  <TrueBrain> peter1138: too bad :) Tnx anyway :)
09:09:59  <peter1138> Might be in some other location... Why have I never deleted this stuff...
09:10:43  <peter1138> Cool, my custom Minecraft server from 2010 :D
09:14:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9341: Add: '-X' option to ignore global folders in the search path
09:15:21  <TrueBrain> lol :D
09:24:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9342: Change: allow pause/unpause console command in single player too
09:24:55  <Rubidium> should that also be used for the (build) regression tests? Or is that going to break the regression tests?
09:25:22  <TrueBrain> currently people often have OpenGFX in their global path
09:25:39  <TrueBrain> so no, regression should stay as it is for now :)
09:34:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9343: Add: execute "game_exit.scr" on closing the game
09:39:51  <peter1138> perlin3d.c
09:39:57  <peter1138> Gosh, I wrote some crap :D
09:44:38  <TrueBrain> hmm ... I am trying to do this: load an old savegame, save it, run it for N ticks, save it again
09:44:48  <TrueBrain> load the first savegame, run it for N ticks, save it
09:44:52  <TrueBrain> and compare the two end-savegames
09:45:01  <TrueBrain> they should be identical if nothing was going wrong with the save/load
09:45:11  <TrueBrain> but .. they differ with 4 bytes in size alone :P
09:45:22  <TrueBrain> that might be because of a tick difference
09:46:30  <TrueBrain> well, even compatible NewGRFs that are loaded can cause it, I guess
09:46:43  <TrueBrain> owh, and gamelog difference
09:46:44  <TrueBrain> bah
09:48:10  <TrueBrain> so, export-as-json and json compare might work .. but that is not 100% done yet :P
09:51:43  <TrueBrain> okay, without the gamelog the size of the savegame is the same .. just binary different still :D
09:52:33  <TrueBrain> very minimal difference .. just no clue what :D
09:58:07  <peter1138> You could try loading the old game on a server, then connecting a client, and see where that gets you :D
09:58:21  <peter1138> There's desync debugging stuff isn't there?
09:58:33  <peter1138> If it's different, then it would, indeed, be a desync issue.
10:02:55  <Rubidium> that amphibian's savegame dump tool might help ;)
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10:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> trunk/src/network/network.cpp:36:10: fatal error: charconv: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
10:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause>  #include <charconv>
10:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> what did i do wrong?
10:18:08  <LordAro> your compiler is too old
10:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 7.5.0?
10:18:38  <LordAro> apparently
10:18:55  <LordAro> i wouldn't be opposed to solutions that remove charconv usage anyway
10:34:22  <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: no terraforming with tools but you can load and unload dirt anywhere
10:36:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9343: Add: execute "game_exit.scr" on closing the game
10:37:27  <_dp_> funnily enough it's probably someewhat possible already with some "construction site" industry and a bit of gs
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11:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like horrible gameplay
11:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> keeping aside the user interface issues, the game isn't really designed for temporary routes
11:01:59  <LordAro> how about balanced terraforming?
11:02:07  <LordAro> can only raise land if you've lowered it somewhere else
11:02:14  <LordAro> might be fun
11:02:28  <LordAro> GS might be able to do it?
11:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that's essentially like the burst mechanics
11:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> just you have a signed value
11:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> should be fairly straightforward to adapt. plus you get a slow decay over time for free
11:09:27  <Xaroth> LordAro: lower too much land and the sea level rises, raise it too much and sea level lowers.
11:10:09  <Xaroth> remove a mountain and suddenly half your rail network floods.
11:12:38  <_dp_> yeah, gameplay is questionable
11:12:59  <_dp_> may work if somehow limited to large terraforming projects though
11:13:19  <_dp_> like if you want to build a dam across the lake you have to go through all the trouble
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11:51:11  <peter1138> 12:10 < Xaroth> remove a mountain and suddenly half your rail network floods.
11:51:17  <peter1138> Sounds great in multiplayer
11:51:21  <Xaroth> I know right
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13:02:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
13:02:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
13:04:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
13:05:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
13:06:15  <TrueBrain> lol
13:08:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
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13:15:40  <peter1138>
13:15:44  <peter1138> I guess our UI isn't so bad...
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13:17:00  <TrueBrain> haha
13:18:34  <TrueBrain> hmmm .. the autosave-on-exit is not always done .. wth
13:21:11  <TrueBrain> okay ... I start the game, pause it, save, unpause .. but the null-videodriver counts the ticks no matter if it is paused or not
13:21:18  <TrueBrain> so it exits before the save is done
13:21:37  <TrueBrain> and as it cannot do 2 save-actions at once, the exit.sav is never created
13:21:37  <TrueBrain> right
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13:23:22  <peter1138> EFL powers Samsung Galaxy Watch smartwatches
13:23:24  <peter1138> Oh no
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13:45:06  <TrueBrain> okay, the JSON diff tells me, when I save/load the game, the AI blob can change
13:45:09  <TrueBrain> that somewhat makes sense
13:48:23  <peter1138> All that effort :-)
13:48:46  <TrueBrain> okay, when you do not have the right AI for a savegame
13:48:53  <TrueBrain> it changes the "is_random" from 0 to 1 :)
13:49:11  <glx> and discard previously saved data ?
13:49:34  <TrueBrain> dunno, not many AIs use that, so hard to tell :)
13:52:44  <TrueBrain> well, at least for the parts I can JSON-ify already, diffs on games are empty
13:52:48  <TrueBrain> so that at least is promising :D
13:53:15  <TrueBrain> crazy-slow, takes ~30 minutes to process 500 savegames
13:53:21  <TrueBrain> but okay :)
13:53:30  <TrueBrain> some savegames take a long time to simulate for 256 ticks :P
13:53:47  <peter1138> It's the trees.
13:54:03  <peter1138> Trees and path signals :)
13:54:22  <TrueBrain> but so what I am testing now is that the original game simulates the same as save/load that same game .. that means that my changes to the save/load do not influence the game-state
13:54:30  <TrueBrain> so it is more likely I didn't fuck anything up :D
13:54:45  <peter1138> Almost like, say, a unit test? :D
13:54:59  <TrueBrain> well, more like an integration test ;)
13:55:06  <TrueBrain> I am not doing this on unit level after all :P
13:55:11  <peter1138> True true
13:56:10  <TrueBrain> okay, I like being able to export to JSON :D
13:59:34  <TrueBrain> lol, I have 1 game that is like completely different
13:59:40  <TrueBrain> interesting .. and hard to tell if that is my work
13:59:43  <TrueBrain> or an existing bug :P
14:02:32  <peter1138>
14:02:33  <peter1138> Nice
14:04:01  <TrueBrain> owh boy :P
14:04:45  <TrueBrain> w00p, even ProZone games have no diff
14:04:55  <TrueBrain> okay, so the idea works :D
14:05:23  <TrueBrain> it just takes a lot longer than I expected .. ~2 hours for the full set, by the looks :P
14:06:23  <_dp_> dunno about your case but for network desyncs there are certain things that can differ between server and client saves
14:06:39  <TrueBrain> wait, really?
14:06:42  <TrueBrain> is that what desync means?
14:06:44  <TrueBrain> holy crap!
14:06:45  <TrueBrain> :P
14:07:05  <_dp_> I mean differ normally, without causing desynnc
14:08:52  <_dp_> desync means that random state changed, not 100% identical save or game state
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14:11:56  <peter1138> Desync is often detected by the random state not matching, but that isn't what defines a desync.
14:16:55  <_dp_> that's the only practical definition of desync I know of :p
14:17:39  <TrueBrain> I think JGRPP is a fine example for using much more information to detect desyncs
14:17:45  <TrueBrain> I still want to port that over to us
14:18:40  <TrueBrain> but desync means the client and server no longer agree on the game-state
14:18:47  <_dp_> it's mostly about detecting desyncs sooner, not defining it
14:18:54  <TrueBrain> which we, with a poor-mans-solution, detect by looking at the random-seed
14:19:22  <peter1138> < lol, that is not what a keepalived script is meant to do
14:19:26  <TrueBrain> but you seem to be confusing "detection of desyncs" with "desync"
14:19:28  <_dp_> and then you'll have to define what "agree on the game-state" means
14:19:40  <_dp_> are different states of vehicle flags a desync?
14:19:48  <TrueBrain> peter1138: it is not? Awh!
14:20:11  <TrueBrain> but, if it works .. it works, right? :D
14:20:13  <peter1138> A desync is when the state differs. Random state not matching usually happens after the initial desync, it's an effect of the desync, not the cause.
14:20:36  <peter1138> TrueBrain, it literally kills keepalived itself if postgres is not alive
14:20:52  <TrueBrain> do I want to know in what corner of the internet you ended up in?
14:21:01  <glx> hmm using ChunkHandlerTable = span<const ChunkHandler *>; doesn't work for static const ChunkHandler *map_chunk_handlers[] = {}; extern const ChunkHandlerTable _map_chunk_handlers(map_chunk_handlers);
14:21:09  <glx> no compatible constructor
14:21:11  <peter1138> It's meant to return a status which keepalived uses to do the thing keepalived is designed to do...
14:21:19  <peter1138> TrueBrain, this bit, apparently :/
14:21:29  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah .. I didn't add a way to allow span<> to be empty
14:21:35  <_dp_> peter1138, and now you have to define "the state"
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14:21:45  <glx> well it's not empty, there's 11 element ;)
14:21:57  <TrueBrain> glx: ah, your example showed it as empty :P
14:22:00  <glx> I just simplified copy/paste
14:22:12  <TrueBrain> well, for sure it doesn't work on empty :)
14:22:31  <_dp_> peter1138, and if you define it too vaguely you'll find out that openttd mp runs in a perpetual desync :p
14:22:32  <TrueBrain> otherwise your copy/paste "looks fine"
14:22:42  <glx> seems Container constructors don't work for this
14:22:53  <TrueBrain> if you can show a bit more code, I can give it a look
14:23:00  <TrueBrain> but know that I implemented the bare minimum for span<> :)
14:24:09  <JGR> Quite often, desyncs are due to cache issues. These caches are not actually stored in savegames and so comparing savegames after the fact is usually not useful.
14:24:45  <glx> TrueBrain: <-- nothing fancy, I'm just changing a type :)
14:25:01  <TrueBrain> JGR: be mindful that nobody was talking about comparing savegames to detect desyncs :)
14:26:21  <glx> guess we need our version of   gsl_api gsl_constexpr span( element_type (&arr)[N] ) gsl_noexcept
14:27:09  <TrueBrain> JGR: that is the so, _dp_ randomly started to talk about it, but we were not :D
14:27:13  <TrueBrain> so = say ;)
14:27:23  <TrueBrain> for some reason I didn't press enter as I clicked a link
14:27:25  <TrueBrain> now that is interesting :P
14:27:51  <JGR> I'm aware of that, however diffing client and server savegames seems to be the suggest method for debugging desync issues.
14:28:19  <JGR> That's fair enough.
14:28:48  <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, using savegames for desyncs is a rather limited scope to investigate :)
14:29:11  <TrueBrain> I think we have more code to investigate desyncs in OpenTTD than anything else (investigate-wise)
14:29:17  <_dp_> TrueBrain, you were not but now we're talking comparing savegames! :p
14:29:23  <TrueBrain> glx: that is odd, I would expect that to "just work"
14:29:32  <TrueBrain> glx: have you tried changing the "ChunkHandler" type to a pointer?
14:29:47  <TrueBrain> instead of adding a * everywhere :)
14:31:05  <_dp_> and limited it may be but it's the only scope most of the time
14:31:12  <TrueBrain> JGR: I also like that most often the solution to a desync is to save the cache :P
14:31:17  <TrueBrain> which is sort-of funny :)
14:31:36  <TrueBrain> why did we ever add so many caches in the game? :D
14:31:57  <JGR> Because otherwise performance would be atrocious
14:32:04  <JGR> Especially with GRFs
14:32:17  <TrueBrain> to present an andy solution: just remove GRFs :P
14:32:35  <TrueBrain> I am now working on reworking the linkgraph saveload part
14:32:39  <TrueBrain> boy ... that is some special code
14:32:43  <TrueBrain> it stores a lot of meta-data
14:32:49  <TrueBrain> just to be sure after loading it is still doing the same thing
14:32:51  <TrueBrain> pretty funny :)
14:33:58  <JGR> If you didn't save all that, you get another type of desync
14:34:04  <JGR> you'd*
14:34:29  <TrueBrain> yup
14:34:56  <TrueBrain> complexity of the game increased quiet a bit :)
14:35:14  <TrueBrain> quite
14:35:15  <TrueBrain> ugh
14:35:16  <TrueBrain> what-ever
14:35:18  <TrueBrain> fuck english :P
14:37:33  <TrueBrain> glx: godbolt tells me that fixes the issue, which is funny :)
14:39:07  <TrueBrain> as in:
14:39:23  <TrueBrain> I guess this is part of the wonderful world called templates? :D
14:39:44  <LordAro> of course!
14:39:58  <glx> haha it's magic
14:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> we could switch to german, if you don't like english :p
14:43:11  <TrueBrain> ah, const is the issue
14:43:28  <TrueBrain>
14:43:29  <TrueBrain> works too
14:44:06  <TrueBrain> and ofc too
14:44:28  <TrueBrain> but yeah, it is a limit of my implementation, as std::span<> does work fine :)
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14:49:21  <TrueBrain> glx: <- change that in your core/span_type.hpp
14:51:40  <TrueBrain> but, correctly me if I am wrong LordAro , "const char *a[]" makes the pointer a const, where "const char* const a[]" makes "a" a const
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14:53:17  <nielsm> the latter makes a a pointer that can't be changed, pointing at char's that can't be changed
14:53:51  <nielsm> or huh no wait, it's also an array so nm
14:54:13  <LordAro>" target="_blank">*a%5B%5D" target="_blank">*a%5B%5D
14:54:16  <LordAro> ;)
14:54:32  <TrueBrain> linking the same thing twice, nice
14:54:34  <TrueBrain> but yeah, good point
14:54:47  <LordAro> oh lol
14:54:53  <LordAro> damned clipboard
14:54:55  <TrueBrain> but so in this case we indeed want "const" twice :)
14:55:03  <TrueBrain> so you do not have to change span_type.hpp I think glx :)
14:55:16  <TrueBrain> as we really want the list itself to be a const, not only the pointers :)
14:55:25  <TrueBrain> explains why the "using ChunkHandler2" worked
14:55:28  <TrueBrain> sanity restored :)
15:01:05  <TrueBrain> its funny, as gsl-list writes everywhere "Container const" instead of "const Container"
15:01:13  <TrueBrain> (both being equal, ofc)
15:01:20  <TrueBrain> gsl-lite
15:01:24  <TrueBrain> damn, too hot for typing
15:22:41  <TrueBrain> owh yeah, my test-suite in fact did pick up on a bug Rb already told me about :D But that means it also finds things broken just fine :D
15:22:42  <TrueBrain> sweet!
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16:10:36  <peter1138> Has OpenTTD renamed master yet?
16:10:51  <glx> no
16:14:38  <peter1138> Okay, I am not missing any commits then :D
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16:53:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #9344: Change: Reduce real sprite groups if possible.
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17:38:32  <TrueBrain> glx: just so I have mentioned it, another example where chunk order really matters: Companies have to be loaded after EngineRenew
17:38:35  <TrueBrain> they are -not- in the same file
17:42:08  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, that is not true .. ugh, this code is difficult to read
17:42:46  <TrueBrain> fuck it, I am going to waste a few more bytes in memory during loading .. that should make things a lot easier
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17:51:24  <FLHerne> Out of curiosity, is the fancy bridge PR waiting on anything?
17:52:02  <FLHerne> That's one feature I'm quite keen to see
17:52:10  <peter1138> NewGRF bridges?
17:52:30  <FLHerne> Yes, 9161
17:52:43  <peter1138> I don't think anyone has gone through it thoroughly apart from frosch
17:53:17  <peter1138> Adding a NewGRF spec is quite a task, and I haven't look to see if this does it right :p
17:53:45  <FLHerne> I thought about implementing NML support for it, but in that case it's guaranteed to be completely re-invented
17:54:02  <FLHerne> because sod's law
17:54:32  <peter1138> Implementing support is a good way to find out if there are any dum... bits missing.
18:00:41  <peter1138> I looked at my old NewGRF bridges patch and it has absolutely nothing involving sprite resolvers, so it must have been using a fixed offset, like the original NewGRF stations code did (before I got my fingers on it)
18:05:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9339: Codechange: add and use the ability to store (lists of) structs in savegames
18:05:49  <TrueBrain> right, companies saveload now uses SLE_STRUCT ..
18:05:52  <TrueBrain> 2 down, 2 to go
18:08:23  <TrueBrain> after this, it means every SaveChunk basically only calls SlObject once
18:08:42  <TrueBrain> which means everything is described by the SaveLoadTables :)
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18:39:35  <frosch123> FLHerne: for some weeks i wanted to split off the bridge-pool from thar PR, but I keep on finding other things to do :p
18:55:12  <peter1138> Hmm, apparently there are 3 regression tests now, but the new one does not exist. Huh.
19:13:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
19:13:56  <TrueBrain> lol @ peter1138 , you are doing what now? :D
19:13:56  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:14:05  <TrueBrain> wow, GitHub schedule is getting close and clsoe to sanity
19:17:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9339: Codechange: add and use the ability to store (lists of) structs in savegames
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19:58:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze opened pull request #9345: Fix: Crash when CTRL-clicking on a sign
20:01:01  <V453000> I always forget, how is a wagon recognized in NML? It doesn't have tractive effort?
20:01:06  <V453000> it's something else right
20:01:16  <V453000> maglev also doesn't have that
20:02:35  <andythenorth> no power isn't it?
20:02:47  <andythenorth> power in action 0 = engine
20:02:53  <andythenorth> no power in action 0 = wagon
20:03:01  <andythenorth> but cb 36 can give power to wagon when built
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20:07:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9345: Fix: Crash when CTRL-clicking on a sign
20:09:28  <glx> I think #9337 is for you peter1138
20:16:02  <V453000> ah yeah powered wagon is something else
20:16:04  <V453000> thanks
20:16:04  <V453000> :)
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20:58:00  <peter1138> 1/3 Testing: regression_Testing
20:58:04  <peter1138> CMake Error at I:/src/OpenTTD/cmake/scripts/Regression.cmake:15 (message): Regression test Testing does not exist (tip: check regression folder for the correct spelling)
20:58:11  <peter1138> o_O
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21:01:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze opened pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
21:07:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze commented on pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
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21:23:08  <glx> peter1138: weird
21:23:18  <glx> maybe clean build folder
21:23:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
21:24:51  <V453000> Feature request: ban andythenorth from github
21:24:52  <V453000> :>
21:25:02  <andythenorth> goes it kick V453000
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21:40:01  <andythenorth>  Andrey Andreyev
21:40:20  <peter1138> Wot
21:40:29  <andythenorth> sponsor of a silly train
21:40:55  <andythenorth> people named variants of Andrey can be odd
21:41:03  <andythenorth> double Andrey is double off
21:41:06  <andythenorth> odd *
21:41:18  <andythenorth> I was odd-by-one on the keyboard there
21:42:14  <glx> hey it survived 25 years before being scrapped
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21:45:22  <peter1138> Could it go around bends?
21:47:18  <glx> not really
21:47:39  <glx> even with sliding axles
21:49:43  <andythenorth> ideal for the new 9346 PR
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