Log for #openttd on 27th June 2021:
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02:33:10  <openttdplayer> Is it possible to switch back to the old version of inflation on 1.11.2? I've realised that's why my loan amount and prices have all changed in a standard 1950 start, don't really like that
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04:30:50  <Kitrana> what changed with inflation?
04:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Kitrana: base year is always 1920 now, instead of game start year
04:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> this is meant to solve two game balance problems: if you start in 1700, the game becomes unplayable by the time you reach 1850, and if you start in 2050 everything is trivally cheap
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05:14:00  <LordAro> (also, the answer is no, you can't switch back)
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06:43:29  <andythenorth> yo
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08:28:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 updated pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave
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08:38:50  <TrueBrain> I got an email with the subject saying: ":SPAM: NOT SPAM REPLY IF YOU RE STILL ALIVE"
08:38:59  <TrueBrain> and guess what .. it is spam :P
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10:21:52  <andythenorth> TrueBrain going to play MP OpenTTD? o_O
10:22:03  <TrueBrain> what gave you that illusion?
10:22:13  <andythenorth> I smoked crack
10:22:22  <TrueBrain> can I have some?
10:22:29  <andythenorth> we are about to start a game :P
10:22:33  <andythenorth> 7 years
10:22:34  <andythenorth> goals
10:23:56  <TrueBrain> enjoy :D
10:25:44  <Samu> my code detecting ships going up or down in a lock considers it a jam
10:27:05  <Samu> moves at 0 km/h
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12:15:51  <Samu> arf.... go to nearest ship depot
12:19:45  <Samu> holy crap, i rebased through 1246 commits and no conflits found!
12:20:38  <Samu> very fishy...
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12:52:21  <Samu> i'd like this to be a reality
12:59:12  <Samu> it would save my AI a lot of code
13:00:40  <Samu> if the game actually found reachable ship depots
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13:41:15  <Samu> ships have an issue: they tend to stack on each other when not using full loading
13:42:34  <Samu> the way cargo is moved from stations to ships makes that a tendency
13:43:08  <Samu> if there's only 1 dock, there should be only 1 cargo movement at a time
13:43:12  <glx> if it was the only issue :)
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13:51:03  <Samu> wow, i tried founding a town, and game crashed
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13:56:55  <Samu>
13:57:00  <Samu> weird crash
14:00:32  <Samu> return __builtin_strlen(_First);
14:00:37  <Samu> _First is null
14:00:41  <Samu> and crashes
14:00:47  <Samu> access violation c05
14:05:32  <Samu> const char *name = nullptr;
14:05:35  <Samu> name is null
14:05:44  <Samu> std:string doesn't like nullptr?
14:15:31  <Samu> hmmm i can't submit a crash report
14:15:42  <Samu> requires crash files, which i dont have
14:16:03  <glx> std::string can't be null
14:16:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
14:19:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
14:19:55  <andythenorth> anybody want to? :)  Then I can add the docs for it
14:24:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
14:25:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
14:31:54  <Samu> name == nullptr ? "" : name
14:31:59  <Samu> good fix?
14:32:00  <glx> no
14:32:03  <Samu> :/
14:43:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Can't convert nullptr to std::string
14:44:18  <glx> and there maybe more hidden nullptr to string, but hard to check all DoCommand
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14:52:31  <Samu> I see
14:52:43  <glx> oh I found another one
14:53:05  <TrueBrain> glx: maybe change the commit message :D
14:53:12  <TrueBrain> that is not saying an awful lot :P
14:54:56  <glx> ah no false alarm, script DoCommand still uses const char * and it's safely converted
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15:04:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Can't convert nullptr to std::string
15:05:14  <glx> better ?
15:05:32  <glx> and I think I checked all calls
15:05:40  <TrueBrain> we said that 3 times already :P
15:06:08  <TrueBrain> anyway, commit message is better .. personally I like the style of: Fix: crash when funding town using default name
15:06:44  <TrueBrain> but at least now it is clear what was fixed :P
15:06:53  <TrueBrain> as sure you didn't fix that we now can convert nullptr to std::string :P
15:07:02  <TrueBrain> (which you originally commit message basically said :D)
15:07:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Don't pass nullptr to fund town using default name
15:08:09  <Samu> what should be the commit message for 9401?
15:08:20  <Samu> looks ugly
15:09:00  <glx> you don't have to change it Samu, it can be done on merge :)
15:09:12  <Samu> ok, thanks
15:11:31  <Samu> it's founding, not funding
15:16:33  <glx> nice, communication issues between runners and github it seems
15:18:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Don't pass nullptr to fund town using default name
15:18:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
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17:54:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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18:11:10  <LordAro> tempted to add "needs motivation" label to #9322 :p
18:11:18  <LordAro> i am massively -1 to sqlite saves
18:11:28  <LordAro> massively unnecessary
18:11:52  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I am also not sure about sqlite, but frosch really wants it :P
18:12:11  <TrueBrain> so I don't mind exploring it
18:12:13  <TrueBrain> sounds like a fun project
18:12:26  <TrueBrain> but don't say there is no motivation in 9322, as that is bullshit ;)
18:12:52  <LordAro> i see no advantages, other than "mildly more readable outside of OTTD"
18:12:52  <_dp_> to me 9322 looks very much like a solution looking for a problem
18:13:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: it uncouples savegame from internal ordering .. basically finally allowing some code cleanups to happen :D
18:15:07  <LordAro> well, that's another matter
18:15:26  <LordAro> be nice if you could mention some of them in the PR though
18:15:37  <TrueBrain> it is literally the first point?
18:15:44  <LordAro> (you may already have done, been a while since i actually looked at the PR text)
18:15:52  <TrueBrain> yeah .. please read first ;)
18:15:53  <LordAro> (i just looked at the email)
18:18:08  <TrueBrain> as it goes with these kind of emails, they are heavily biased towards some details of the whole :) Better make your own opinion first ;)
18:18:28  <Xaroth> I'm +1 for cleaning up the codebase
18:18:44  <Xaroth> pardon my french, but some parts are terrible to work with.
18:19:37  <_dp_> I wouldn't exactly call +3351 -775 "cleaning up the codebase" ;p
18:19:51  <Xaroth> how are +/- stats ever an indication for cleanliness?
18:19:53  <TrueBrain> taking things out of context is an art ;)
18:20:27  <_dp_> stats are whatever, point is, it's not just cleaning, it's an addition of stuff in the name of cleaning
18:20:55  <Xaroth> Is it?
18:20:58  <_dp_> if goal was just cleaning I'm pretty sure there are simpler solutions
18:21:13  <Xaroth> from what I can understand from the code it doesn't actually introduce anything that's not discussed in the PR.
18:23:22  <Xaroth> Code cleanliness has 0 to do with the LoC your codebase has, it's about creating maintainable code that's easy (in context) to work with
18:23:58  <Xaroth> Sometimes that means writing less code, sometimes it means writing a lot more code
18:28:00  <_dp_> without specificts it's just empty words
18:28:03  <_dp_> and I don't see any in the pr
18:29:13  <_dp_> I can probably guess some if it... like renaming settings doesn't seem to be a noop like it was before
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18:30:37  <Xaroth> At that point I'd say check the code, see what it does, and if that raises questions, ask them
18:30:40  <Xaroth> that's what I do
18:32:34  <_dp_> that's a lot of code to check...
18:32:45  <_dp_> which already says something about "cleanup"
18:33:12  <_dp_> anyway, simple question, if that's a "cleanup" why can't it all work without changing the format like it does with old savegame versions?
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18:33:23  <_dp_> just via "compat" tables that it already added?
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18:50:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:50:39  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:34:41  <glx> and we have a successful nightly build
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19:42:31  <TrueBrain> glx: \o/
19:42:32  <TrueBrain> finally :D
19:43:06  <andythenorth> yay
19:43:40  <glx> small issue, macos version is 10.4+
19:44:11  <TrueBrain> 10.14+ :P
19:44:23  <glx> ha yes
19:45:19  <glx> I wonder if we'll get bug reports about that :)
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19:48:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
19:48:29  <TrueBrain> glx: me too :)
19:49:23  <TrueBrain> LordAro: maybe this email helps you with some context :)
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21:21:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
21:29:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
21:32:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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22:04:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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22:26:43  <TrueBrain> what is the insanity about UFOs lately? I think I missed something somewhere ..
22:27:02  <glx> declassified data
22:27:04  <glx> IIR
22:27:05  <glx> C
22:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of nonsense
22:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of "well, we can't explain it. doesn't mean it's UFOs, but we can't say it's not UFOs"
22:28:28  <glx> lots of way too blury images
22:29:13  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: > "none of it can ever be undone" is a weird statement. It is as much true as saying that the feature which allows towns to build tunnels cannot be undone. That is just being scared of the future.
22:29:51  <FLHerne> I think the distinction is that there's a precedent for changing [mis-]features
22:29:54  <TrueBrain> glx: ah! Yeah .. okay, that stuff :)
22:29:59  <FLHerne> e.g. the controversial inflation thing
22:30:17  <FLHerne> You can always delete the town-tunnel-building code again
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22:30:43  <glx> anything is revertable with more or less work
22:30:44  <FLHerne> but savegame back-compat is a hard requirement, so you can't really "get rid of" a chunk type ever
22:31:05  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: fair point. Still not an issue, but that slightly changes the argument indeed :)
22:31:07  <FLHerne> Once it's in, every future version has to support it
22:31:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why we have afterload.cpp
22:31:25  <TrueBrain> as "reverting" in this case means "skip the header", which is length-prefixed
22:31:38  <FLHerne> I think that's the root of glx's argument; see also "Yes, this PR creates 2 new chunk types, but this PR also removes the usage of 2 others."
22:31:40  <TrueBrain> so even if it comes to that, keeping that code around would be very minimal :P
22:31:44  <glx> but unification of chunk types themselves is not a bad change
22:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of stuff like shifting back and forth PBS bits is still buried in there
22:32:17  <FLHerne> It can't really remove them (and nor can any other tool that wants to parse OTTD savegames) because they still exist in all the old ones
22:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that code part is very contained.
22:33:39  <glx> worse case would be to have to skip headers on load
22:33:41  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: tnx, updated the comment :)
22:34:03  <glx> but the data chunk themselves will still be valid
22:34:07  <TrueBrain> I did not consider that comment in that light, so tnx :D
22:34:25  <TrueBrain> we really debate an addition of a header here :P Nothing is removed, reshuffled, etc .. just adding a header. That is it.
22:34:52  <TrueBrain> I wish I could convey the simplicity of this PR more :P
22:35:03  <glx> anyway changing chunk type is not a first in openttd history
22:35:06  <TrueBrain> the ones that came before this to make everything a CH_ARRAY on the other hand ... uuggggghhhhhhhh, that was shit to write :P
22:35:25  <TrueBrain> CH_RIFF has a lovely "old" issue ... where 4 bits of the type are part of the length ... that is ... shit :P
22:35:33  <glx> and I really think it's a nice improvement to unify that
22:35:37  <FLHerne> er, sorry, *of _dp_'s argument
22:35:44  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I understood :D
22:36:29  <TrueBrain> it is still an expression of "scared for the future" in my book btw
22:37:03  <TrueBrain> you have to consider the way back, sure, but it shouldn't hold you back going forward :)
22:37:19  <TrueBrain> but okay, it was just 7 words in a whole reply :)
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22:37:36  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: if there is anything I missed / misunderstood, let me know .. hard for me too to keep a fair view in this story :P
22:37:49  <glx> headers are just a little change on top of the unification
22:38:36  <TrueBrain> I am pretty proud on how simple it became :D
22:38:51  <TrueBrain> the settings-chunk-only change was ... shittier :P
22:39:05  <glx> and unification is already merged :)
22:39:13  <TrueBrain> yeah, but that was long overdue anyway
22:39:24  <TrueBrain> it was so random, how chunks did stuff ..
22:39:33  <TrueBrain> even those in the end only add length-fields in certain places
22:40:23  <glx> so the most breaking change is no longer part of that PR ;)
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22:40:34  <TrueBrain> haha, I guess that is a fair statement
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22:40:43  <TrueBrain> unintentional, but fair
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22:43:10  <TrueBrain> but yeah, those PRs reduces the 17 years of technical debt in saveload stuff every so slightly :D
22:43:21  <TrueBrain> two places that still need addressing .. AI and GS saveload blob
22:43:29  <TrueBrain> that is yet-another-hack
22:44:25  <_dp_> what's the "unification" pr you're talking about?
22:44:43  <glx> CH_RIFF to CH_ARRAY
22:45:33  <glx>
22:45:40  <TrueBrain> bah, you are quicker
22:45:42  <TrueBrain> :P
22:47:46  <TrueBrain> is a similar PR, in case you missed it :)
22:47:54  <TrueBrain> more cool: GitHub now tells the title of PRs inline
22:47:56  <TrueBrain> that looks awesome
22:48:46  <TrueBrain> I do wonder why it does it twice, but not thrice?
22:51:55  <TrueBrain> ah, only if it is used in a list
22:51:59  <TrueBrain> that is a weird condition
22:54:16  <TrueBrain> glx: btw, I did some simple greps on all AIs; I could find 4 that forgot "," in parameters
22:54:21  <TrueBrain> but it is really difficult to grep for it
22:54:31  <TrueBrain> so I know at least 4 AIs are affected .. :P
22:54:38  <TrueBrain> 3 of those only had it for 1 or 2 versions
22:54:44  <TrueBrain> only 1 had it consistent wrong in a single line
22:55:16  <glx> I think some ludiaiaftefix are concerned, as samu noticed the issue
22:55:46  <TrueBrain> too bad it is just not worth the effort to add compat code for it :P
22:55:54  <TrueBrain> it did make me wonder if we shouldn't just upgrade to squirrel3
22:56:00  <TrueBrain> but then I realised how much shit we changed to Squirrel
22:56:19  <TrueBrain> so I put that idea in a box, closed it, put some weights on it, dropped it in the ocean, and blew up the planet it was on
22:56:30  <TrueBrain> wasn't earth, as it turns out
22:56:31  <glx> would be worse, as a lot of squirrel 3 is not compatible with squirrel 2
22:56:46  <TrueBrain> yeah, but if we would have compat modes
22:56:48  <TrueBrain> that would be "okay"
22:56:54  <TrueBrain> would mean 2 squirrels embedded in OpenTTD :P
22:56:56  <TrueBrain> so maybe not :D
22:57:00  <FLHerne> But then you're not upgrading, you just have both
22:57:02  <FLHerne> yeah, that
22:58:00  <TrueBrain> as I said .. put it in a box ..... ;)
22:58:05  <TrueBrain> glx: for 9401, something like "Fix ea9715d: not all setting values were clamped properly" ?
22:58:36  <glx> seems better yes
22:58:46  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: this was one of those rare moments you realise you have a shit idea :P
22:58:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9401: Fix ea9715d: clamping was ignored for setting values
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23:00:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9397: Feature: Persistant rotation of numbered autosave after restart
23:04:23  <TrueBrain> glx: PR looks good, but I think we should allow the other to merge in first, to not make a new contributor's life more difficult then we have to :P
23:04:40  <glx> yeah that was my idea too
23:05:10  <TrueBrain> prefix is a nice addition in your function btw
23:05:21  <TrueBrain> could be useful to do similar stuff with 9395 .. but maybe after it is merged :)
23:06:02  <glx> yeah the prefix can remove the need for bool
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23:06:39  <glx> just unconditionally prefix all "keep" save too
23:06:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window
23:07:11  <TrueBrain> makes it cleaner, I think
23:07:21  <TrueBrain> but maybe something for your PR after the other one ;)
23:07:46  <TrueBrain> damn, #9376 is small
23:07:52  <TrueBrain> I expected more code for some reason
23:08:12  <TrueBrain> I like that peter1138 made alignment this easy .. that is nice :D
23:08:47  <_dp_> nah, 9322 is still the worst
23:08:57  <_dp_> 9374 is kinda annoying but at least I see the point
23:13:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9368: Codechange: Remove last FOR_XXX macros
23:15:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9105: Improve server logs for administration
23:19:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8845: Feature: zstandard compression for network games
23:19:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8845: Feature: zstandard compression for network games
23:24:12  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: <- what do you think .. I am tempted to close it, as I somehow doubt we get enough consensus on what is "proper English" here :P And just close this book for now :)
23:30:01  <glx> intellisense is annoying, just cause the function do disappear
23:30:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9191: Codechange: Disable pointer locking by default
23:31:37  <TrueBrain> really? I wouldn't expect that ..
23:31:59  <TrueBrain> use VSCode :P
23:32:01  <TrueBrain> :D :D :D
23:32:16  <glx> VSCode uses intellisense too IIRC
23:32:32  <TrueBrain> doesn't collapse stuff by default
23:32:36  <TrueBrain> and does those things correctly for me
23:32:42  <TrueBrain> it darkens one of the two branches
23:33:07  <glx> when I mean disappear, it's in the quick access function list
23:33:46  <glx> folding/unfolding works fine
23:33:51  <TrueBrain> <- I like this view :)
23:34:02  <TrueBrain> I still care about both lines, but I see what will be compiled in
23:34:25  <TrueBrain> I don't deal well with folding of code :P
23:34:42  <TrueBrain> bah, out of shit to close in terms of PRs
23:34:44  <TrueBrain> time for zzz
23:47:01  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: personally I really like that PR, at least in principle
23:47:30  <FLHerne> but I do have doubts if we can ever reach a consensus before everyone involved burns out

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