Log for #openttd on 7th July 2021:
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07:31:29  <peter1138>
07:31:32  <peter1138> That first one...
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07:42:23  <SpComb> GET /super-secret?honest.gif
07:45:23  <SpComb> I don't believe that "milliseconds per attempt" graph is from the an actual real-world attack on that strcmp implementation, no way that one character can cause a 20ms delay
07:48:22  <andythenorth> interesting write up :)
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09:25:44  <Samu> hi
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10:31:27  <Samu> about the "too long to save", I found out why the issue is less likely to happen on 4096x4096 maps
10:32:03  <Samu> i have a "bestRoutesUsed" bool that affects how to iterate over town pairs
10:32:50  <Samu> while it is false, it will only iterate over the first town that finds (the best town to pair with)
10:33:07  <Samu> so the array doesn't get huge
10:33:27  <Samu> if it runs out of towns, then bestRoutesUsed becomes true
10:34:09  <Samu> and in this form, it will exaustively force finds a town to pair with
10:34:36  <Samu> this massively increases the array
10:36:18  <Samu> on 512x512, there are less towns to pair with when bestRoutesUsed is false, so the speed at which bestRoutesUsed becomes true is quicker than on a map sized 4096x4096
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10:47:03  <Samu> that explains why on a 4096x4096 map, the AI would easily reach 5000 road vehicles and wouldn't crash with a "too long to save", because bestRoutesUsed is unlikely to be true at that point.
10:55:19  <Samu>, I wonder if I should put a return; there
10:55:31  <Samu> after that line
11:05:37  <Samu> just looked over the original LuDiAI, and it doesn't have a return; there either
11:05:56  <Samu> I wonder what happens if I put a return there
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11:52:44  <Belu> Hi,
11:53:04  <Belu> anyone knows how to disable the industries imminent closures ?
11:53:25  <Belu> and reverting the original music soundtrack to the latest version ?
11:53:48  <LordAro> there's a setting for changing industry closure behaviour, i don't think it disables it entirely
11:53:53  <LordAro> not sure what you mean about music
11:54:11  <Belu> the original game music as it was from the beginning,
11:54:25  <Belu> he same original was used in v 0.4.7
11:54:51  <Belu> as I did not found any .mid files ini the old version
11:55:07  <Belu> to replace the new openTTD MSX .mids
11:55:08  <LordAro> the original is in .GM files
11:55:21  <LordAro> you shouldn't need to replace any files
11:55:28  <Belu> so i assume I cannot replace .mid with .gm
11:55:36  <LordAro> just put them in the correct (baseset) folder
11:55:50  <Belu> oh, so it doesn't matter if it's .mid or .gm ?
11:56:05  <LordAro> let me find the guide someone wrote...
11:56:13  <Belu> thanks
11:57:07  <LordAro>
11:57:41  <Belu> and there was another nice option in the old v0.4.7, trains or vehicles were starting to load passengers on the first arrival, does the latest ver have this setting ?
11:57:54  <LordAro> probably
11:58:02  <LordAro> the settings window has a search bar these days, try it out!
11:58:49  <Belu> i tried and set to expert features and did not found any related setting
11:59:33  <Belu> did not found any setting with the string industries, do you have ideea what tags could I try ?
11:59:49  <Belu> nor closure
12:00:36  <LordAro> ah, i'm thinking of the economy type - "smooth economy" changes industry closure behaviour
12:00:56  <LordAro> ah, and "Frozen" stops them entirely
12:01:39  <Belu> i'll try
12:02:09  <Belu> frozen to stay indefinitely (industries) ?
12:02:27  <LordAro> i'm not going to read the helptext for you
12:03:23  <LordAro> i do recall the station cargo loading behaviour changing, can't find any setting for it though
12:03:48  <Belu> yes, it was something like cargo behaviour i remember something like this in the old 0.4.7 vers
12:04:03  <Belu> I remember I instantly changed this
12:04:09  <LordAro> a lot has changed in the last 15 years, i'm afraid :p
12:04:28  <Belu> i'm afraid that option is eliminatesd
12:05:09  <Belu> any option for the online multiplayer to start a new company instead of joining my existent one ?
12:05:23  <Belu> when someone joins my server game
12:05:39  <Belu> so each user with it's own company ?
12:05:55  <LordAro> press the "create new company" button when joining
12:06:03  <LordAro> though this UI is getting a rework for 1.12 anyway
12:11:34  <Belu> thanks, have a great day
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12:12:27  <LordAro> should incorporate the TTD-media guide into the repo, imo
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12:16:22  <glx> Pff took to long to install a client and join
12:17:11  <glx> But the cargo setting still exist, only from the console (and cfg)
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12:34:10  <Samu> this townManager code still eludes me
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12:36:15  <Samu> why would I want to clear the Array when allRoutesBuild is true
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13:45:39  <Samu> so many tiny little bugs that were eluding me
13:46:07  <Samu> good thing I am revisiting my code
13:51:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis opened pull request #9416: Codechange: Simplify FormatString
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14:17:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9416: Codechange: Simplify FormatString
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15:09:05  <peter1138> Hahah
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15:09:19  <peter1138> Guess where goes...
15:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that
15:15:04  <TrueBrain> Do I dare to guess?
15:15:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis opened pull request #9417: CodeChange: Improve LineCache queries
15:15:55  <peter1138> TrueBrain, you probably wouldn't be surprised...
15:15:57  <peter1138> 105 changed files
15:15:57  <peter1138> with
15:15:57  <peter1138> 4790 additions
15:15:57  <peter1138> and
15:15:59  <peter1138> 129 deletions
15:16:02  <peter1138> Urgh
15:16:16  <peter1138> 1) Too many lines, sorry. 2) Too many lines...
15:16:55  <TrueBrain> Lpl
15:16:59  <TrueBrain> Lol even
15:18:02  <LordAro> peter1138: oh that's super dirty
15:19:10  <TrueBrain> You sound surprised :p
15:20:20  <glx> oh so surprising from current freenode
15:20:29  <Samu> I'm simulating construction of routes without actually running the code that does the construction, just so I can speed up things. I wanna see how big the m_nearCityPairArray becomes
15:20:50  <Samu> testing on a 4096x4096 map
15:21:15  <Samu> and yet, it's still slow
15:25:04  <glx> hu ugly stuff in #9417
15:25:51  <glx> I don't like if (auto x = ...; x != ...)
15:27:23  <peter1138> 4096x4096 isstill slow? Surprise!
15:28:15  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, that reads really difficult
15:29:02  <TrueBrain> peter1138: guess we should fix that ..
15:29:12  <TrueBrain> I will make the PR to remove it :p
15:29:17  <peter1138> \o/
15:29:23  <TrueBrain> :D
15:29:36  <TrueBrain> Owh, that will piss off so many people :p
15:31:45  <peter1138>
15:31:49  <peter1138> Nice
15:32:02  <peter1138>
15:32:05  <peter1138> Bad.
15:33:48  <TrueBrain> Yeah .. just because you can doesn't mean you have to ;)
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17:06:36  <Samu> damn my curiosity, this is gonna take a long time
17:07:25  <Samu> array length currently at 45k
17:07:52  <glx> that's a really big array
17:08:22  <Samu> @calc 12000 * 11999
17:08:22  <DorpsGek> Samu: 143988000
17:08:31  <Samu> heh,
17:09:22  <Samu> but the pairing of towns is taking into account a min_dist and max_dist between them, as well as how much pass it produces
17:10:07  <Samu> min of 20 for this test, max of 125
17:11:51  <Samu> on a 512x512, array becomes with about 1800 items
17:12:23  <Samu> multiply by 4
17:12:43  <Samu> for road/pass, road/mail, water/pass, water/mail
17:13:19  <Samu> the "too long to save" triggers at about 3200
17:14:54  <glx> means you are saving too much data
17:15:35  <glx> usually all data that can be gathered from analysing the map don't need to be saved
17:17:58  <Samu> the AI is too reliant on it
17:18:14  <Samu> not sure what I can do yet
17:19:24  <Samu> if i can store int64's now in a save, i'm gonna try saving townpairs in one single value
17:19:46  <Samu> make some m_preSave of that array
17:19:58  <Samu> so that when it saves, it just dumps it
17:21:12  <Samu> each town ID is 16 bits, i store 2 towns, that's 32 bits, then i also store the cargoclass
17:21:30  <Samu> no idea how many bits, but will be the remaining of a int64
17:22:44  <glx> why do you split pass and mail ? the pair itself is the same for both types I think
17:23:10  <Rubidium> tiny towns might not accept mail yet (or passengers)
17:24:05  <glx> it's still possible to use only one array for both types, with a marker
17:25:02  <glx> should reduce the global size as in many cases pair are in both arrays
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17:25:29  <Rubidium> that's definitely true
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17:28:28  <glx> and I guess stored distance depends on transport type, and again can be merged (like min_water_dist, max_water_dist, min_road_dist, max_road_dist), then all cargo production duplication is gone
17:31:54  <Samu>
17:32:12  <Samu> gonna take forever t.t, but i can already see it exceeds 3200 :p
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17:49:55  <andythenorth> yo
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18:20:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #105: Document procedures for switches and random switches
18:30:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #46: Update nml wiki docs for NotRoadTypes (NRT)
18:34:42  <andythenorth_> is this accurate for roadtypes and railtypes
18:34:52  <andythenorth_> "Road tile (pseudo-random, based on location)"
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18:39:24  <Timberwolf> I do enjoy how "if you don't do x when you're building a station it'll jam and have awful throughput" becomes "of course it's obvious the only thing that matters is signal gap" when you create a video testing it.
18:42:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #46: Update nml wiki docs for NotRoadTypes (NRT)
18:42:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth closed issue #46: Update nml wiki docs for NotRoadTypes (NRT)
18:44:58  <andythenorth_> I think everything for 1.10 is now done here :D
18:44:59  <peter1138> Timberwolf?
18:45:01  <andythenorth_> so only 2 version behind
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18:51:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:51:30  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:00:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9416: Codechange: Simplify FormatString
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19:16:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9407: [Bug]: CmdFoundTown may cause multiplayer desyncs due to not initialising Town::stations_near
19:16:48  <glx> it's a nice bug
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19:23:38  <LordAro> nice find
19:23:50  <LordAro> now the question, *why* is it skipped?
19:24:43  <andythenorth_> hmm 2024 will be 30 years since TTO
19:24:53  <andythenorth_> stations in nml as a celebration?
19:28:01  <glx> introduced the Backup, but introduced FindStationsAroundTiles a long time later
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19:35:26  <Timberwolf> peter1138: I had so many times where people in the Reddit/Discord universe said "you shouldn't build like that, it's a bad design, do this instead" to the kinds of things I do in my game that I started testing them.
19:36:09  <Timberwolf> Usually with a result of "oh, wait, the one everyone says to build is 20% worse than the 'bad' design" and a big slice of, "well yeah, it's obvious if you think about the game mechanics"
19:37:11  <Samu> it finished!
19:38:54  <SpComb> sounds like we need a SotL for OpenTTD
19:40:27  <Timberwolf> That used to be openttdcoop, but a lot has been invalidated by path-based signals.
19:40:42  <Timberwolf> I think that's where a lot of the misconceptions come from, too.
19:41:15  <Timberwolf> OTTDC wiki says, "we use this in our games, it has 2x the throughput". Which is totally true, if the only thing you have access to is block signals.
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19:46:20  <peter1138> They still seem to hate path signals.
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20:09:21  <Samu> 63529 opcodes vs 33577 opcodes
20:09:46  <Samu> that was quite a save
20:10:31  <Samu> array length of 2305
20:12:38  <Samu> wondering how can I improve this further
20:17:11  <Samu> "you tried to save an unsupported type"
20:18:21  <Samu> i need to convert Class instance into array
20:18:51  <Samu> or just the only variable in the class, so
20:18:54  <Samu> class to integer
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20:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> they'll continue to do so...
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20:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> can we please hide block signals by default?
20:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> we'll get new fun threads where people confuse "change default setting" with "remove from game"
21:00:32  <andythenorth> block signals are best though?
21:00:37  <andythenorth> discord and reddit said so?
21:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> those are not the target audience.
21:03:29  <andythenorth> who is? :)
21:03:40  <andythenorth> steam maybe?
21:09:19  <LordAro> other devs, ofc
21:12:12  <Samu> from 63529 to 33577 to 3566 ops
21:12:16  <Samu> wow
21:12:32  <Samu> i must verify this is data is correct, sounds too good to be true
21:17:28  <Samu> holy crap, it is correct!
21:17:50  <Samu> omg so happy, this is the solution for the "too long to save"
21:19:02  <Samu> i did as nielsm suggested
21:20:05  <Samu> now all I need is the save int64 fix to be in the next openttd release
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21:46:28  <peter1138> Hmm, weird, 32" monitor + FPS gaming == motion sick :/
21:47:01  <andythenorth_> oof
21:47:05  <peter1138> Well, Bioshock, not quite an FPS.
21:47:39  <andythenorth_> hmm remember Descent?
21:47:47  <peter1138> Yes
21:48:00  <andythenorth_> not good for motion sickness
21:48:12  <peter1138> But in a different way.
21:48:13  <andythenorth_> especially when combined with certain chemicals of dubious legality
21:48:20  <glx> descent, doom, wolfeinstein
21:48:28  <glx> on a crt
21:48:35  <andythenorth_> a tiny CRT
21:48:41  <andythenorth_> and null-modem LAN
21:48:41  <peter1138> Never ever had any issues with Doom or Wolfenstein, nor Descent.
21:49:01  <peter1138> I did try the remake of Descent in VR, that was not fun.
21:49:03  <glx> it depends on the game for me
21:49:28  <andythenorth_> watch football on a 32" monitor
21:50:46  <glx> on "the witness" it's quite instant for me (weird FOV)
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