Log for #openttd on 14th September 2021:
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10:48:21  <Samu> omg, what are the odds of this happening?
10:48:37  <Samu> house growth on that tile made the ship become stuck
10:51:03  <Timberwolf> This has been happening to me a bit in my West Country 90201 game, where I have ships in the little channel between Bristol and Clifton and houses keep getting foundationed into the water.
10:51:33  <Timberwolf> It's obviously a lot more common in a channel, because the ship doesn't have to be on the tile to get blocked.
10:54:02  <LordAro> how is it blocked there? can't ships approach/leave from multiple directions?
10:56:10  <Samu> i think i had a patch to prevent this from happening, have to search for it
10:57:00  <Samu> but not sure if it would detect this edge case
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11:07:18  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I hope you have included the Clifton Rocks Railway
11:07:26  <andythenorth> oh we don't have 'underground funicular'
11:07:27  <andythenorth> hmm
11:23:35  <Samu> here it is, rebased to todays
11:23:45  <Samu> testing it
11:24:29  <Samu> it was so old it still had NULL's
11:39:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mwkaicz opened issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem
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11:53:56  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: yours is
11:54:18  <FLHerne> Samu's is a bit different, because it's not blocking access in general, just that particular ship
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12:25:39  <Samu> debug mode with ai running is slow :(
12:27:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem
12:30:54  <glx> debug mode is slow without any ai for me
12:31:25  <Samu> 10 more years
12:40:35  <Samu> 2 more years
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12:48:12  <Samu> it triggered! it works!
12:48:19  <Samu> house isn't built
12:57:31  <Samu> it's been rejected in the past
12:58:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mwkaicz commented on issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem
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14:55:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 opened issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
14:58:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
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15:04:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
15:04:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
15:13:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
15:14:04  <LordAro> i suppose it's not worth it to try to blacklist that driver?
15:25:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup
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16:09:40  <Samu> road to 5000's
16:10:14  <Samu> already 5000 aircraft in some companies
16:10:28  <Samu> ships are harder to mass though
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16:54:26  <andythenorth> yo
16:55:10  <andythenorth> so OpenGFX needs uploading to bananas
16:55:36  <andythenorth> seems I can do that on my bananas account
16:58:24  <LordAro>
16:58:31  <LordAro> "Between the 3 Sept and 10 Sept, secure env vars of *all* public @travisci repositories were injected into PR builds. Signing keys, access creds, API tokens."
16:58:34  <LordAro> oh dear.
16:59:03  <andythenorth> oh dear
17:00:22  <andythenorth> hmm I need the opengfx artefact
17:00:27  <andythenorth> to upload to bananas
17:02:01  <LordAro> andythenorth:
17:02:16  <LordAro> i'm not actually sure whether that's linked to from anywhere
17:02:48  <andythenorth> I was trying to guess urls :)
17:03:46  <andythenorth> hmm the zip isn't accepted by bananas
17:05:31  <andythenorth> maybe it needs tared
17:13:12  <andythenorth> oh dear :)
17:13:14  <LordAro> is there not a reasonable error message?
17:13:41  <andythenorth> Could not recognise this file; possibly the extension is wrong
17:13:48  <andythenorth> the zip contains a tar
17:14:04  <andythenorth> but if I unzip the tar on the mac, macos unpacks the tar then deletes it
17:14:13  <LordAro> lol.
17:14:14  <andythenorth> so I don't get the tar file to upload to bananas
17:14:26  <andythenorth> anyone got winzip? :P
17:14:38  <LordAro> `unzip`
17:14:45  <LordAro> from your nearest terminal
17:16:38  <andythenorth> "Something failed, sorry for the inconvenience"
17:16:42  <andythenorth> (bananas)
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17:17:31  <andythenorth> I am good at breaking bananas
17:18:52  <andythenorth> dare I ping TB? :P
17:19:18  <LordAro> if you've caused an exception, he already has been :p
17:21:44  <andythenorth> FIRS also wasn't bananas compatible for ages :P
17:21:53  <andythenorth> it's quite lol that opengfx isn't though :)
17:28:47  <glx> you're good at breaking anything ;)
17:29:28  <andythenorth> I could have had a career in QA
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17:36:36  <TrueBrain> lol, you broke configparser
17:36:37  <TrueBrain> that is impressive
17:36:50  <glx> haha
17:37:08  <glx> nothing unbreakable
17:37:08  <TrueBrain> One of the translations fails parsing
17:37:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] georgyel opened issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request
17:42:20  <TrueBrain> IT IS NOT ME! \o/
17:42:25  <TrueBrain> OpenGFX fucked up :P
17:42:36  <TrueBrain> I would guess the release doesn't even load in-game?
17:43:06  <glx> oh so nmlc accepted broken stuff ?
17:43:07  <TrueBrain> <- someone added cases
17:43:14  <TrueBrain> and .. that ... is processed weirdly
17:43:25  <TrueBrain>
17:43:30  <TrueBrain> creates that in the obg file
17:43:34  <TrueBrain> which is not a valid ini file anymore :)
17:44:02  <TrueBrain> (updated gist, removed "^M")
17:44:04  <glx> oh ^M is \n
17:44:15  <TrueBrain> ignore that, that is my bad
17:44:36  <TrueBrain> updated, to give more context to the file
17:44:38  <glx> ha it's not an nmlc bug
17:44:40  <TrueBrain> so you can easier spot what is wrong
17:44:44  <glx> (that's nice)
17:45:01  <TrueBrain> I am happy we all found who not to blame :D
17:45:30  <glx> guess it's Makefile or a script called by Makefile
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17:46:05  <TrueBrain> so I can fix the BaNaNaS bug, but the fix is to refuse the upload :)
17:46:43  <glx> <-- probably this one has a bug
17:47:15  <TrueBrain> I would also consider it a bug that eints allows to make cases for OpenGFX :P
17:47:19  <TrueBrain> doubt that is useful :)
17:48:20  <TrueBrain> "# make sure that we only write sensible stuff" <- how cute
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17:49:26  <andythenorth> did we decide it was my fault?
17:49:34  <glx> I wonder how STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION.kas can pass validation, it doesn't match the original string format I think
17:50:27  <glx> oh there's no "special" commands, only colors and newline, and they are ignored
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17:50:48  <glx> because they don't use any parameters
17:51:25  <TrueBrain> anyway, I guess nobody actually tested if OpenGFX works ingame? :D
17:51:49  <TrueBrain> found something to blame on andythenorth \o/ :P <3
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17:55:47  <andythenorth> I think I declared that recently :P
17:55:56  <andythenorth> compile works, must be ok right?
17:57:29  <glx> ok confirmed it's
17:57:35  <glx> will look into it later
18:01:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9553: Change: Add configurable docking tile occupied penalty for NPF and YAPF
18:02:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #9553: Change: Add configurable docking tile occupied penalty for NPF and YAPF
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18:03:56  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: In OpenTTD timescales, 18 months is pretty recent
18:04:14  <FLHerne> That's still "last release", isn't it?
18:04:17  <FLHerne> maybe n+1
18:04:27  <TrueBrain> "pretty recent" I would have accepted ;)
18:04:54  <FLHerne> Also, I don't get the objection
18:05:14  <FLHerne> pretty much every pathfinder cost for every transport mode is configurable
18:05:35  <FLHerne> including ones that no-one could ever want to change
18:05:42  <FLHerne> except that one, for some reason
18:05:49  <FLHerne> which someone _does_ want to change
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18:07:19  <FLHerne> It's a few lines of boilerplate code that Samu's already written, what's the cost?
18:07:32  <TrueBrain> round round we go
18:07:37  <TrueBrain> I sometimes wonder if we get dizzy ;)
18:07:47  <TrueBrain> but the general rule is: we do not add settings unless there is a good reason
18:07:53  <TrueBrain> 1 person wanting a setting, is not that reason :)
18:08:01  <TrueBrain> hence the last point, if someone can argue a good reason, we can look at it
18:08:31  <TrueBrain> and the cost is not zero, as the PR has some rough edges that needs fixing, etc etc
18:08:41  <TrueBrain> but by all means, pick it up, clean it up, give a good motivation, and lets goooooo
18:09:12  <FLHerne> How are you supposed to know if anyone else cares if you insta-close it?
18:09:27  <FLHerne> and no, clearly that hasn't been the policy for these config-only settings
18:09:39  <FLHerne> Why would anyone ever want to set the buoy penalty to not 2
18:09:48  <FLHerne> no-one has ever done that, nor will they ever
18:09:57  <TrueBrain> you are arguing with the wrong person. If you feel strongly about this, please comment in the PR, make a good motivation, clean it up, and everything is possible
18:10:04  <FLHerne> I didn't even know there *was* a buoy penalty
18:10:19  <TrueBrain> since I picked up OpenTTD in 2020 I have been told 10000 times not to add settings unless REALLY needed
18:10:40  <FLHerne> well, I only know about the PR because I was skimming the IRC log
18:10:57  <_dp_> it's hard to give any motivation for pathfinder settings as ideally no one should ever touch them
18:11:04  <_dp_> except mb for developing and debugging
18:11:24  <FLHerne> It's only been there 24 hours, and now it's closed which means no-one will ever see it again
18:11:30  <_dp_> otherwise it'll get pretty weird and confusing if everyone starts to run their own setitngs
18:11:51  <FLHerne> Yeah, I think the main purpose is to experiment with possible better defaults
18:12:06  <FLHerne> or people who want to really micromanage their trains as always
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18:13:30  <Xaroth> Messing with the PF is tricky even if you know what you're doing
18:14:02  <Xaroth> adding random settings to the PF is asking for tons of people making random suggestions on how to "fix" everything by tweaking settings that don't do what they think they do.
18:14:14  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I don't have a strong opinion about the value of the setting, but I have an opinion against making one thing arbitrarily different from the others
18:14:32  <FLHerne> all the equivalent PF costs are settings, so it's weird that this one isn't
18:14:48  <TrueBrain> I would agree with you if he made ALL penalties a setting
18:14:56  <FLHerne> and given the other recent changes added them, that seems more like an oversight than a deliberate choice
18:14:58  <TrueBrain> he picked this one for a reason, and it is not the one you think ;)
18:15:18  <FLHerne> Not everyone who supports something has to have the same reason :p
18:15:33  <TrueBrain> again, people are free to motivate why they want to have it :)
18:16:26  <TrueBrain> but "I do not understand how the pathfinder works, and changing this value 'fixes my issue'" is the real motivation here :)
18:16:56  <TrueBrain> (feel free to browse the IRC logs back the last few weeks to understand why :D)
18:17:10  <FLHerne> Playing with settings can improve one's knowledge of what they do
18:17:19  <TrueBrain> and he has been doing that a lot already :)
18:17:24  <TrueBrain> doesn't need to be a setting to toy with it!
18:17:27  <FLHerne> I know there's that silly maximum-cost bug
18:18:36  <TrueBrain> but in this specific case, we indeed have been looking into if/how we can remove all pf settings
18:18:37  <TrueBrain> as it is more pain than gain
18:21:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
18:21:25  <_aD> A closed issue doesn't disappear and doesn't necessarily mute any dissenting voices.
18:21:51  <FLHerne> ^ I love that one
18:21:56  <_aD> The number of options in the game already makes my head spin and I've been playing it for longer than I can remember.
18:22:15  <TrueBrain> there is a reason why we follow "do not add settings unless really needed" :P
18:22:28  <TrueBrain> during TTDp everything became a setting
18:22:28  <_aD> Amen.
18:22:58  <_aD> Presumably if one is that advanced a player, making changes to the code is a plausible alternative?
18:24:11  <TrueBrain> worded differently: "is there an audience for this setting?", is what I often wonder
18:24:32  <_aD> It's valid to take into account how well-informed the audience is, too.
18:24:46  <TrueBrain> but talking about PRs and opinions, as having PRs open for a long time doesn't mean anyone voices an opinion, how do we rate: ?
18:24:54  <_aD> If many of them want a change because of a misunderstanding, that diminishes the validity of their wishes.
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18:30:48  <TrueBrain> codewise I am fine with that PR, and I do not see a reason not to accept it. But I wish we could collect some opinions on these things easier
18:30:53  <TrueBrain> they now often sit for months, without input
18:31:17  <TrueBrain> we really need a monthly stream with "rate my PR" section :P
18:31:48  <_dp_> 9325 feels like it tries to make it look a bit more like routes without actually making routes
18:32:01  <TrueBrain> yup. It is a bit of a start towards that
18:32:03  <_dp_> but it's burried so deep in the ui that it's kinda irrelevant
18:32:07  <_dp_> I'd rather see actual routes
18:32:09  <TrueBrain> doesn't seem to hurt existing workflows
18:32:35  <TrueBrain> I rather see a lot of things; but sometimes we have to take what we have :D
18:32:43  <TrueBrain> it might motivate him to continue this line of work
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18:32:54  <TrueBrain> s/him/them/
18:33:01  <_dp_> well, yeah, I guess...
18:34:06  <_dp_> it's just that I'm personally probably never going to use that feature so have no particular opinion
18:34:09  <_aD> For that one it seems that the submitter isn't grouping as they should. If I want to clone a train I am not immediately near I go Trains->Group->Clone one
18:35:54  <andythenorth> PR stream!
18:36:26  <TrueBrain> _aD: I think the motivation kinda explains that, that they are looking at a station window
18:36:58  <_aD> I guess so, but it's still only Trains->Group->Clone from there...
18:37:07  <TrueBrain> and finding back the station you are at :)
18:37:30  <TrueBrain> from what I understand, but please correct me if you see it differently, you are at a station with a surplus
18:37:33  <TrueBrain> and you want to scale up
18:37:44  <andythenorth> have we reached the limit yet of piling up things on sand? :)
18:38:07  <TrueBrain> going via Trains means you have to find the station back, I think?
18:38:13  <TrueBrain> (or the group you assigned to this line, ofc)
18:39:02  <_aD> Ah by Trains I mean the overall Trains window, not the one for a specific station.
18:39:09  <TrueBrain> exactly
18:39:14  <TrueBrain> sorry, I assumed you meant that :D
18:39:30  <_aD> so the station window stays as it is, one opens trains, clicks the group, clicks clone?
18:39:45  <TrueBrain> how do you quickly find the group?
18:40:04  <_aD> heh, I guess I play at a smaller scale, or more organised, than the OP.
18:40:20  <TrueBrain> :)
18:40:28  <_aD> I give my group names useful labels (albeit silly, because silly town is best town)
18:40:53  <TrueBrain> I find these PRs always a bit difficult .. fully aware only a small amount of players will discover the functionality on one hand
18:40:54  <_aD> Tanglewood Rapidfire Limes
18:41:06  <TrueBrain> on the other hand .. it might finally cause someone to tackle this issue :P
18:41:31  <_aD> Yeah, discovery is a big deal in a game without a walk-through.
18:41:56  <TrueBrain> but I do not like this PR has been open for this long .. and it gained 0 input in all those months .. hmm
18:41:58  <TrueBrain> toss-up?
18:42:23  <_aD> If no-one's even given it a +1 does that speak for itself?
18:42:40  <_aD> Or is that a poor metric for the audience?
18:42:44  <TrueBrain> if that was a KPI, I can close most PRs :)
18:42:48  <_aD> heh
18:42:54  <_aD> You're welcome!
18:43:02  <TrueBrain> there is a really low engagement on PRs :)
18:43:25  <_aD> Weird how some folk will write acres of arguments but the next day won't +1 something they like the look of.
18:44:03  <TrueBrain> GitHub is trying different things to get this done
18:44:09  <TrueBrain> but it is really difficult
18:44:09  <_dp_> _aD, wait, how do you even clone on a group? cloning needs a depot
18:44:13  <TrueBrain> even Discussions are .. so-so
18:44:27  <_aD> _dp_: I assumed the user has a depot open, since they weren't mentioned
18:44:38  <_dp_> ah
18:44:42  <TrueBrain> but yeah, we really need "routes" over orders
18:44:43  <_aD> TrueBrain: I guess that's the problem with decentralised communities.
18:44:48  <TrueBrain> as this becomes senseless ..
18:44:49  <_aD> Moar ActivityPub.
18:45:15  <TrueBrain> I still wonder if we can promote voting on PRs or something .. dunno
18:45:41  <_aD> OpenTTD seems to feature-complete to me, I wouldn't think to look at PRs.
18:45:45  <_aD> s/to/so/
18:45:52  <TrueBrain> it kinda is, but yet it isn't
18:46:11  <TrueBrain> I was hoping adding "Preview" would really help
18:46:13  <TrueBrain> but it really hasn't
18:46:39  <_aD> Also for something like that specific PR, I wouldn't -1 it because I'm aware that people play at different scales.
18:47:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:47:15  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:47:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9325: Feature: Ctrl-Click on vehicle list in GB_SHARED_ORDERS opens order window
18:47:39  <TrueBrain> so we have 2 ~0, basically
18:47:42  <TrueBrain> I myself am also ~0
18:47:45  <TrueBrain> so lets approve it
18:47:56  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: 9325 would be really useful for me
18:48:09  <FLHerne> [sorry, I went to the shop before it closes in 10mins]
18:48:13  <TrueBrain> owh, a +1, well, that settles it even more :)
18:48:23  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I appreciate the opinion :)
18:49:41  <FLHerne> Also, I kind of agree with _dp_ that (a) it's a step toward unifying groups and orders (b) actually doing that would be great
18:49:54  <FLHerne> but in the meantime this is better than the status quo
18:50:21  <TrueBrain> "Returns false when a buoy was placed on the tile." <- this is the wrong tense, not?
18:50:29  <FLHerne> *shared orders
18:50:37  <TrueBrain> (as in, it suggests it no longer has to be placed on the tile)
18:51:22  <FLHerne> Is that a function that places a buoy?
18:51:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
18:51:38  <TrueBrain> let me just add it to the PR, makes it easier for more-native-english-speakers to disagree with me :D
18:51:40  <FLHerne> I'd read it with its presumably-intended meaning, but I can see why it might be confusing
18:52:53  <FLHerne> Ah, that isn't what it is
18:52:58  <FLHerne> so yes I agree with you
18:53:10  <FLHerne> Also, that feels like a needless gotcha
18:53:30  <FLHerne> It's a brand-new function, can't it just not have a weird unintuitive special-case
18:53:31  <TrueBrain> it kinda is
18:53:34  <FLHerne> I should comment on the PR
18:53:40  <TrueBrain> it is not a brand new function
18:53:44  <TrueBrain> it is an existing one
18:54:02  <TrueBrain> the function should have been called: IsClearWaterTile, I guess :)
18:54:15  <TrueBrain> also returns false for docks, and .... :P
18:54:20  <TrueBrain> but I get why it can be weird
18:54:32  <TrueBrain> it is funny how we just flipped roles :D
18:56:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
18:56:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
18:57:34  <FLHerne> Oh, right, I just spotted that while trying to write a comment
18:58:00  <FLHerne> False for docks makes sense, you can't sail through them
18:58:04  <FLHerne> how about ship depots?
18:58:24  <TrueBrain> I would assume it is only True on clear tiles
18:58:30  <TrueBrain> which might be the better way to explain this
18:58:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
18:58:55  <TrueBrain> but we can spend hours on making the wording better .. maybe we should just do a pass some day over all the documentation
18:59:28  <TrueBrain> (I spotted many more issues .. for example the lack of "iff" :P)
18:59:43  <TrueBrain> sometimes I touch these things, look at it close, and go: step away now .. sllloooowwwwllllyyyyy
19:00:22  <andythenorth> most things everywhere are....awful
19:00:32  <andythenorth> and yet the world keeps singing along just fine
19:01:11  <_dp_> landscape stuff and water in particular is such a mess...
19:01:39  <_dp_> there is MP_WATER and there is ... not MP_WATER with hacked in water flags %)
19:01:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9531: [Crash]: Switching between monitors in fullscreen
19:01:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9531: [Crash]: Switching between monitors in fullscreen
19:04:43  <_aD> MP_DAMP
19:05:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
19:06:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
19:10:07  <Samu> heh, the problem with water tiles....
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19:11:05  <Samu> nothing is as obvious, needs to be tested out for sure
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19:11:58  <Samu> I added to regression tests for those cases where there's ship depots, buoys, etc
19:13:23  <Samu>
19:14:56  <Samu> regression tests IsWaterTile() IsRiverTile() IsCanalTile() IsCoastTile() in all those tiles in the screenshot
19:14:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on discussion #9551: Vehicle orders GUI: Learning from other games
19:15:26  <Samu> oh, IsSeaTile() too
19:17:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
19:18:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
19:19:39  <TrueBrain> Samu: not sure what others think, but I fully expected the icon to remain even after the route was fixed .. that is just how OpenTTD works :D
19:19:46  <TrueBrain> the news also remains despite the route being fixed
19:19:57  <TrueBrain> for me that really is not an issue .. but others might disagree :)
19:20:24  <TrueBrain> having some indication is already widely better than nothing, even if it can be there while the route is fixed :)
19:20:59  <TrueBrain> the only solution I can think of, is if we change to a type of pathfinder where we calculate the track "tree", so we know what is connected to where in a graph
19:21:04  <TrueBrain> and a change to a junction can update instant
19:21:13  <TrueBrain> but ... that is not something that will happen this year :P
19:23:57  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I think it's a bug that the news doesn't vanish too
19:24:07  <FLHerne> but yeah, even with this bug it's a big improvement
19:24:19  <TrueBrain> it is a missing feature, I agree :P
19:24:24  <TrueBrain> just a strong limitation of the pathfinder
19:24:51  <Timberwolf> Sanity check - - in PBS (pbs.cpp line 448) the train in red won't reserve a path to the signal unless that highlighted tile has no reservations. Am I correct in thinking this is because a train can unreserve the tile it's leaving while the last wagon is still partially in the tile, so to get a truly safe waiting place you need the tile *beyond* the one you want to stop
19:24:57  <Timberwolf> in to be free?
19:25:10  <_dp_> train stops being lost when it finds a path, not when tracks are "fixed", train may be on the other side of the map by that point
19:25:27  <_dp_> also would be very helpful if it also showed somewhere exact tile where it became lost
19:25:33  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: asking the real questions, aren't we
19:25:38  <_dp_> but, yeah, any indication is better than no idication
19:26:24  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: I think it's more that there's no distinction between different reservations
19:26:38  <FLHerne> a track bit is either reserved or not
19:27:17  <Timberwolf> Right, so you don't know if it's reserved because something is trying to enter that tile, and you might get a crash if you don't stop before it.
19:27:21  <FLHerne> so if it was allowed to reserve a path, they'd effectively merge into one long reservation and your trains would crash
19:27:33  <FLHerne> (this is a good way to crash things when doing build-while-paused)
19:27:56  <Timberwolf> Ah! So if I'm guessing correct, you need a break between reservations for a train to know this is "my" reservation?
19:28:05  <FLHerne> I think so?
19:28:11  <FLHerne> but maybe it's what you said :p
19:28:22  <FLHerne> ask someone competent
19:28:24  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: I think we all say the same here, but worded differently: that yellow train could be standing still, and reverse, and if the red train would wait for the highlighted tile, it can crash into each other, I think.
19:28:38  <FLHerne> maybe what we both said
19:29:01  <Timberwolf> Yep, I've definitely observed that if the trains are in certain positions when reversing if you change that check.
19:29:16  <TrueBrain> which is one of those quirks in OpenTTD
19:29:24  <TrueBrain> that even without leaving your tile, you can crash into a train on another tile
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19:29:48  <TrueBrain> many of those issues have been fixed over the years
19:29:51  <TrueBrain> doubt they all have been fixed :P
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19:30:15  <TrueBrain> so I -assume- the "needs to be an unreserved tile between" is because of that
19:30:33  <Timberwolf> That's consistent with what I've seen playing around.
19:30:34  <TrueBrain> huge assumption, mind you :)
19:30:47  <TrueBrain> it could have used a comment :P
19:31:19  <_dp_> there is also that thing with signals that they're placed on a tile, not between
19:31:24  <TrueBrain> I believe the issue is, a red light prevents a train from entering a tile. Ideal, you would stop it like 2 or 3 pixels before that
19:31:41  <_dp_> so there is no clear distiction when train actually passes the signal
19:31:53  <_dp_> makes reversing and stuff trickier
19:33:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
19:33:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
19:34:03  <TrueBrain> cheers Samu
19:35:15  <TrueBrain> just imagine if we change that trains stop a few pixels before signals .. how many savegames will just blow up :D
19:35:28  <TrueBrain> too bad these kind of changes are nearly impossible to make now after-the-fact :)
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19:36:01  <FLHerne> well, you could add a setting and apply it only to new games
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19:36:11  <TrueBrain> :P
19:36:13  <FLHerne> but then OTTD would have to implement the old behaviour forever
19:36:19  <TrueBrain> so much irony in that comment :D I love it :)
19:36:22  <_dp_> just switch to 3d map :p
19:36:28  <TrueBrain> and yeah, technical debt is a thing :)
19:36:38  <FLHerne> and you only *just* deleted the 1. from the version
19:36:42  <_dp_> not that it will fix anything but noone will notice these tiny bugs amid the huge ones xD
19:36:44  <TrueBrain> I really considered making TrueTTD (not with that name :P), which just removes a shitton of old code
19:36:52  <TrueBrain> which is NOT backwards compatible with ALL savegames
19:37:11  <TrueBrain> so removing NPF etc
19:37:20  <TrueBrain> just .. because ... it becomes so impossible to maintain all that crap :P
19:37:32  <FLHerne> You could probably do that now
19:37:56  <FLHerne> There have been 'game-breaking' changes before for people relying on particularly niche things
19:38:02  <_dp_> openttd 2.0, oh, wait... :p
19:38:21  <TrueBrain> I think I had enough people yelling at me for 1 year, thank you very much :)
19:39:08  <FLHerne> I mean, if you keep interpreting the version as semver, 7.0 is the first release in a decade that's allowed to break everything
19:39:18  <_dp_> I'd very much like to see all the old crap gone but not the one I'm still using xDD
19:39:25  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: lol
19:40:10  <TrueBrain> and seriously: fuck semver :P
19:40:13  <TrueBrain> the idea is nice for libraries
19:40:19  <TrueBrain> anything else ... I just don't understand it
19:40:23  <TrueBrain> I really do not
19:40:41  <TrueBrain> "I added this cool new feature .. wait, I cannot bump the major, as it is not a breaking change ... HOLD MY BEER"
19:43:20  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: How about you just delete everything, but bundle an OTTD 1.12.x executable with every build
19:43:28  <FLHerne> and swap between them when loading old saves
19:43:47  <FLHerne> There are definitely enterprise applications that do this :D
19:43:52  <_dp_> 2 games for same price! xD
19:44:12  <TrueBrain>
19:44:24  <TrueBrain> that could honestly solve that issue for sure :)
19:45:53  <TrueBrain> right, enough OpenTTD for one evening .. few things left for 12.0 milestone
19:47:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] georgyel closed issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request
19:47:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] georgyel commented on issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request
19:47:59  <TrueBrain> lol, that is a first :)
19:53:08  <FLHerne> I wonder why
19:55:11  <_dp_> hm, I just thought of an interesting idea - make core game mechanics modular and swappable, so one could use latest ui but keep old mechanics for an old save or game mode
19:55:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
19:55:25  <_dp_> may be more trouble than it's worth though
19:56:14  <TrueBrain> WASM plugin system? Wait, we are going in circles :P
19:56:54  <_dp_> who's going in circles? I never went anywhere from the WASM :p
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19:58:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9556: Fix: add back 'Spectate' option to company toolbar menu
19:58:53  <TrueBrain> I was browsing through JGRPP; so useful sometimes :)
19:59:36  <TrueBrain> wtf @ that table Samu
19:59:41  <TrueBrain> I understand your note even more now
19:59:53  <TrueBrain> like, seriously, wtf have we been smoking
20:00:20  <TrueBrain> tnx for doing that work!
20:01:45  <_dp_> that table seems to miss MP_INDUSTRY, MP_STATION and MP_OBJECT that can also have water class...
20:02:12  <TrueBrain> I think Samu showed sufficiently it is a mess :) Not sure we need to pile it further :P
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20:02:50  <_dp_> well, I knew that even without a table :p
20:03:13  <TrueBrain> the beauty of writing things down .. now lots of people can read up on it :)
20:04:22  <_dp_> it's actualy even more of a mess if you look at it from newgrf pov
20:04:35  <_dp_> there is stuff like OBJ_FLAG_DRAW_WATER that only works for full water tiles...
20:04:35  <TrueBrain> hmm .. is #8390 a Feature or an Add .. hmm
20:05:41  <TrueBrain> seems Add is most common for these changes
20:06:25  <TrueBrain> Samu: name a number between 1 and 2
20:06:43  <Samu> 2
20:06:57  <TrueBrain> Feature it is
20:06:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
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20:10:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost
20:10:19  <TrueBrain> that PR is just really cool, really happy we have that now
20:10:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9523: [Bug]: "ship is lost" is only reported via news
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20:13:22  <TrueBrain> hmm .. #9524 is very difficult to verify ..
20:13:22  <TrueBrain> would be nice to have for 12.0
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20:16:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls
20:19:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 opened pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations
20:20:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9011: Feature: make NewGRF active list react on key presses
20:21:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations
20:21:12  <TrueBrain> YOLO approve best approve, right?
20:21:55  <glx> at least I ran the script in wsl and output seems correct (better than before)
20:22:06  <TrueBrain> \o/
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20:23:08  <glx> I wonder if obg generation in openttd is also broken for cases
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20:27:26  <TrueBrain> OpenMSX, OpenSFX, ... :D
20:27:52  <TrueBrain> guess after release 7.1, we should pull 7.0 from the CDN? Don't know what OpenTTD actual does with a broken ini file honestly
20:29:30  <TrueBrain> right, poked discord for the title screen competition
20:30:17  <TrueBrain> "You got a thumbs up rating on the announcement simply by using the word 'thrice' Bravo!" <- I love Steam :)
20:31:00  <TrueBrain>
20:31:01  <TrueBrain> :D
20:31:29  <Samu> nice, I can finally get CANAL cost for my AI
20:31:51  <TrueBrain> \o/
20:31:57  <Samu> beta3 soon?
20:33:36  <TrueBrain> I think we go to RC soon
20:34:09  <TrueBrain> few more bugs to fix .. still hoping someone picks up the language one :)
20:34:42  <TrueBrain> and we need to look into the reservation bug and depots
20:35:16  <TrueBrain> and find a good way to validate #9524 and #9410 .. which is difficult, as that touches parts of the code that are scary
20:37:58  <glx> openttd doesn't mind the wrong obg
20:38:06  <glx> just tested
20:38:44  <_dp_> lol, what's so special about word 'thrice'?
20:38:49  <_dp_> I just used the first word that came to mind xD
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20:41:29  <Samu> down to 9
20:43:11  <Samu> #8514 is not missing intention btw
20:45:21  <Samu> #7918 was updated recently in august, I think it's now in a much saner state
20:46:12  <Samu> #8398 is meh... I can live without it, just me minor nitpicking at something
20:47:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
20:48:26  <_aD> Samu: 9461 permantent rivers is an intersting one. I always try to preserve them for aesthetic reasons and like the idea that one has to bomb them to remove them.
20:48:47  <_aD> (I do not advise putting tents on rivers, permanent or otherwise)
20:51:22  <_aD> TrueBrain: "An alternative I can imagine, is that we do some fluid-mechanics"
20:51:30  * andythenorth removes rivers as policy
20:51:30  <_aD> Oh boy, there be dragons.
20:51:40  * _aD removes policies with rivers
20:51:42  <andythenorth> they're just in the way
20:52:02  <_aD> I am a bit of a masochist and like them for the challenge.
20:52:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 merged pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations
20:54:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Of course they're in the way that's the point :p
20:54:48  <andythenorth> we what now?
20:54:55  <andythenorth> they're just there for boats no?
20:55:02  <_dp_> I don't like that 8461 makes them more annoying even with setting off
20:55:13  <andythenorth> such boats
20:55:35  <_dp_> othewise looks like an interesting feature I planned to try making rivers permanent myself
20:56:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: nah, they're a bit useless for boats IMO
20:56:15  <FLHerne> I keep trying with those little narrowboat things in squid
20:56:16  <_dp_> yeah, since boats can't climb them
20:56:18  <FLHerne> but they never go where I want
20:56:23  <andythenorth> you had me a "they're a bit useless" :)
20:56:26  <FLHerne> and adding locks is expensive
20:56:42  <FLHerne> so their main purpose is to make building railway lines more difficult
20:56:44  <andythenorth> and occupies too much space
20:56:50  <andythenorth> locks are 3 tiles
20:56:53  <andythenorth> such bad idea
20:56:58  <FLHerne> which is good, because I like having to build railway lines around things
20:57:14  <FLHerne> Perhaps boats should be able to set a "can climb slopes" flag?
20:57:19  <FLHerne> then little ones could have it
20:57:33  <FLHerne> but then players would be even more confused than they already are
20:57:55  <FLHerne> probably bad feature
20:58:33  <Samu> :)
20:58:56  <andythenorth> boats on rapids
20:59:00  <andythenorth> FTW
20:59:18  <andythenorth> patch for next livestream pls
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21:05:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 opened pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74
21:06:25  <_aD> how can Ubuntu make core dumping so difficult?
21:06:34  <_aD> It's all meant to be so simple!
21:07:33  <andythenorth> oof so sleep
21:07:38  <andythenorth> such needed
21:07:44  <andythenorth> much tired
21:07:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 updated pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74
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21:13:47  <michi_cc> Timberwolf: Bit late, but yes, reservations may not touch as e.g. trains driving at each other might otherwise cancel the reservation of the other train.
21:14:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74
21:16:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 commented on pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
21:16:42  <_dp_> michi_cc, can't that be fixed with just one extra bit marking final reservation tiles?
21:16:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 updated pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
21:17:33  <michi_cc> _dp_: PR's welcome, but making that fool-proof in all cases included mixed path/block signals and stuff is hard.
21:17:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
21:18:17  <_aD> I seem to be following a list of unhelpful guides to get a stacktrace, would anyone care to point me in the right direction?
21:19:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 merged pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
21:26:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] glx22 opened pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
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21:49:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls
21:49:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls
21:52:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] TrueBrain approved pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
21:53:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] glx22 merged pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74
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