Log for #openttd on 25th September 2021:
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06:44:54  <andythenorth> yo
06:45:04  <andythenorth> is it breakfast?
06:54:18  <LordAro> yes
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08:22:59  <TrueBrain> so .. 0 entries for the title competition
08:23:08  <TrueBrain> guess we will have to make our own :P
08:24:40  <TrueBrain> I assume most of you already noticed, but just to be sure: :)
08:26:48  <TrueBrain> and now the question .. do we want an RC1 before release ..
08:28:55  <TrueBrain> I do not think that would be fruitful, looking over the changes
08:34:17  <nielsm> can we maybe go out asking for someone to "donate" a vanilla game, and then "film" that?
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08:38:55  <nielsm> maybe take the winner or runner-up from the 1.11 screenshot and film that
08:43:37  <nielsm> yeah I think EmperorJake's submission for 1.11 would be good for filming
08:44:02  <nielsm> the winner isn't great, it has a lot going on in the screen but it's mostly fake outside the screen
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08:50:09  <nielsm> looks like jake's given the go ahead, and he has a fixed version that solves some jamming
08:59:27  <nielsm> idea; maybe we can make a live streaming event out of doing the "filming"?
09:10:07  <TrueBrain> go for it!
09:10:27  <TrueBrain> I can help you set it up etc if you like
09:24:49  <Samu> i wonder if linkgraph ever uses INVALID_STATION
09:25:18  <Samu> STATION_INVALID
09:25:28  <Samu> whatever
09:28:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: inadvisable to go without any RCs, imo
09:29:22  <TrueBrain> what do you see as a problem?
09:29:37  <LordAro> well, trying to predict whether there aren't any problems, for one :p
09:29:49  <TrueBrain> our beta2 is not much different from master
09:29:56  <TrueBrain> the beta kinda is the RC :P
09:29:56  <LordAro> i've seen far too many "nah that can't possibly cause any issues" in the last week alone
09:30:22  <TrueBrain> that is even true with an RC honestly :)
09:30:56  <LordAro> yes, but the number of people using nightlies for MP is even lower than betas/RCs
09:31:43  <TrueBrain> personally I never have an issue making 12.1 if something turns out to be problemetic
09:31:46  <TrueBrain> that happens anyway :P
09:35:25  <TrueBrain> honestly, releasing an RC isn't the biggest issue .. all the administration around it is just ... ugh .. and doing that for the odd chance a user finds an issue .. just not appealing
09:36:04  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't mind as much as we just pushed RC1 without any news/socials etc :P
09:37:49  <LordAro> ensuring everything still works against a release branch rather than master is a good test to have too
09:41:05  <TrueBrain> well, I guess that is the balance .. I dont mind making an RC1, but I really do not feel like doing the socials etc .. so if you are up for that, we can team up :)
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09:46:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i get to sit on a train for the new few hours, so i conceivably do a bit
09:46:17  <LordAro> i could*
09:46:28  <TrueBrain> :D
09:47:07  <TrueBrain> I will make a branch etc in a bit .. maybe you can look at the changelog and website PR text?
09:47:25  <nielsm> TrueBrain: I do know how to work OBS in general, I'd just need to have a stream key if I am to go on the official channel. and it wouldn't be today, maybe tomorrow
09:47:55  <TrueBrain> nielsm: what ever works best for you. I can help you with the stream key; but if you need more help etc, I am here.
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09:48:09  <TrueBrain> or you can stream under your own account and we can post that in Discord
09:48:12  <TrueBrain> also fine by me :P
09:49:52  <nielsm> personal account, I'd be streaming on youtube, I don't really use twitch
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09:50:09  <TrueBrain> whatever works best for you, honestly
09:50:17  <blindvt> hi
09:50:55  <Samu> i wonder if _station_kdtree needs to be updated
09:51:36  <FLHerne> blindvt: Good morning
09:53:23  <TrueBrain> wow, our release documentation is out of date :P
09:53:24  <TrueBrain> lets fix that
10:00:08  <Samu> Order::DestinationID is complicated to fix
10:00:31  <TrueBrain> lol, new branches are not announced here, cute
10:00:36  <TrueBrain> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain created new branch: release/12
10:07:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9573: Change: Heading for 13 now
10:07:30  <TrueBrain> I think I have everything .. but the docs were out-of-date, so I based this on the 12.0 bump :P
10:07:34  <TrueBrain> (and updated the docs)
10:09:33  <andythenorth> \o/
10:11:57  <TrueBrain> LordAro: <- start of a changelog
10:12:01  <TrueBrain> need to prune it etc
10:18:52  <TrueBrain> did the usual cleanup (added PR-numbers, capitals, removing useless lines, etc)
10:28:01  <TrueBrain> wow, many languages are (nearly) up-to-date
10:28:03  <TrueBrain> that surprises me
10:29:12  <TrueBrain> either way, poked the translators to take a look at translations
10:29:23  <TrueBrain> what else needs doing ... not much, I think?
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11:07:56  <Samu> nobody can build stations, lol this is really a headache
11:08:41  <Samu> not trivial at all
11:10:20  <Samu> i guess i understand now what maintainable code is
11:12:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9573: Change: Heading for 13 now
11:13:14  <Samu> what is [[maybe_unused]]
11:13:44  <Samu> i see it sometimes next to code that's being used
11:14:06  <blindvt> just silencing the warning i'd say
11:18:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9568: Add: allow gamescripts to build neutral objects
11:19:48  <blindvt> Samu, it's the modern (C++17) standardized form of silencing warnings about that variable being unused. The __attribute__((__unused__)) is non-standard. Likewise the hack to just do a dummy asm =r to fake a use.
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11:39:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9568: Add: allow gamescripts to build neutral objects
11:45:40  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I cleaned up the changelog as much as I can .. but your cleanups are most of the time a lot better, so I leave the rest to you :)
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11:48:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9573: Change: Heading for 13 now
11:50:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9574: Doc: Prepare for 12.0-RC1 release
11:51:06  <TrueBrain> PR to clear my stack :P
12:08:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm happy now
12:08:12  <TrueBrain> that was quick :)
12:08:30  <LordAro> well, i only reviewed what was there,not the entire list :p
12:08:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9574: Doc: Prepare for 12.0-RC1 release
12:09:26  <TrueBrain> now a news message, and we are good to rock and roll, I guess :)
12:09:37  <TrueBrain> together we make light work :)
12:09:51  <LordAro> :)
12:15:10  <LordAro> TrueBrain: put some potential news text at the bottom of the framapad
12:15:18  <TrueBrain> go for it!
12:19:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #223: Add: 12.0-RC1 announcement
12:22:42  <TrueBrain> do you have inspiration for socials ?
12:23:05  <TrueBrain> guess the Steam image is just the same as beta2, but with RC1 .. I can fix that
12:23:19  <LordAro> not really, no
12:25:04  <TrueBrain> your first and last line will have to do in that case :P
12:25:14  <TrueBrain> k, if you can approve the changelog PR, lets make this a reality :)
12:25:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain approved pull request #223: Add: 12.0-RC1 announcement
12:25:49  <TrueBrain> I really like your news post btw :)
12:28:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #223: Add: 12.0-RC1 announcement
12:40:23  <Samu> i can't quite get around this:
12:41:04  <Samu> what does this line do? swap what? first becomes second and second becomes first? doesn't look to be that
12:42:01  <nielsm> yes it changes the two objects so the first becomes the second and the second becomes the first
12:43:01  <Samu> problem I have is that pair.first is a StationID, and it's usually 65535, the old INVALID_STATION index. I need to convert it to the new INVALID_STATION value
12:43:15  <Samu> I'm not sure how to proceed here
12:44:51  <nielsm> if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(oldversion) && station_id == 0xFFFF) station_id = INVALID_STATION;
12:44:59  <nielsm> with pseudo names
12:45:10  <nielsm> of course put the right thing instead of oldversion and station_id
12:45:28  <nielsm> put that right in that loop
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12:55:07  <glx> Station::IsValidID() should also work to detect 0xFFFF as invalid
12:56:41  <nielsm> I think he's converting to have more station id's so need to convert savegames
12:57:00  <nielsm> meaning IsValidID() wouldn't detect the old INVALID_STATION constant any longer
12:57:00  <glx> yes but that works for conversion too
12:57:18  <glx> it won't find a station with this ID
12:57:18  <nielsm> oh, it checks if the ID exists?
12:57:38  <glx> <-- already used there
12:59:23  <glx> <-- and that's the final check
12:59:55  <glx> 0xFFFF will definitly return false during the conversion :)
13:04:38  <Samu> so instead of pair.first == 0xFFFF, i use !Station.IsValidID()
13:04:45  <Samu> pair.first
13:04:49  <glx> yes
13:05:07  <Samu> seems i've been doing this all wrong
13:05:15  <glx> same effect, more readable
13:07:33  <glx> but doesn't work for all cases, here we are in cargo stuff, so only Station are valid, but in other place a stored StationID may also be a WaypointID, and Station::IsValidID() returns false in this case
13:12:21  <glx> DestinationID can store a StationID, a WaypointID or a DepotID
13:13:20  <Samu> that one is complicated
13:13:47  <Samu> i didn't increase depot indexes
13:13:49  <glx> checking OrderType will help to determine which test to run
13:15:04  <Samu> (IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_120) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_INCREASE_STATIONIDS_POOL)), is this a bit redundant?
13:15:44  <Samu> one implies the other
13:15:50  <glx> you can probably remove SLV_120 check yes
13:41:45  <TrueBrain> can anyone please approve Means I can continue with making the release ;)
13:42:43  <glx> skipping #9568 backport for now ?
13:43:09  <TrueBrain> huh?
13:43:12  <TrueBrain> Add: [Script] Allow GameScripts to build neutral objects (#9568)
13:43:23  <TrueBrain>
13:44:05  <glx> oh of course notifications don't show tags
13:44:27  <glx> well branch in this case
13:46:29  <TrueBrain> :)
13:46:51  <glx> and logs says branch happened before the merge ;)
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13:48:09  <glx> let's remove "backport request" tag then
13:48:18  <glx> for future us
13:48:28  <glx> (I did)
13:56:03  <TrueBrain> now you figured this out for yourself, can you approve #9574?
13:56:27  <glx> wondering if #9538 should be mentionned
13:56:51  <TrueBrain> nope
13:56:57  <TrueBrain> no user cares about that, really
13:57:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #9574: Doc: Prepare for 12.0-RC1 release
13:57:40  <glx> ok :)
13:57:49  <TrueBrain> I let out more of those :P
13:58:25  <TrueBrain> sometimes we are WAY too technical with our commit messages, I noticed :)
13:58:35  <TrueBrain> like ... not even describing what it fixes technical :P
13:58:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9574: Doc: Prepare for 12.0-RC1 release
13:59:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain created new tag: 12.0-RC1
13:59:29  <TrueBrain> lets see how it breaks
13:59:40  <TrueBrain> and tnx glx :)
14:03:15  <LordAro> \o/
14:05:41  <glx> <-- some testing with disabled
14:06:18  <glx> it seems to work fine (visally the pathfinder is doing what I would expect)
14:07:45  <TrueBrain> you mean disabling it is an improvement, or how do I need to read this? :)
14:08:08  <glx> disabling is an improvement because it then defaults to exitdir key
14:08:26  <TrueBrain> that reduces the complexity for sure :P
14:09:17  <glx> and as trackdir is still in the node (exitdir is derived from trackdir) curve penalty should work fine
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14:10:35  <Samu> i have to be extra careful when using Station::IsValidID
14:10:58  <glx> just need to be sure it's actually a Station
14:11:29  <Samu> DestinationID complicates stuff
14:11:48  <glx> but you have order type in this case
14:12:28  <Samu> I used it too, and it still failed for some reason in the pool
14:13:34  <Samu> maybe i need to use BaseStation?
14:13:37  <Samu> will try
14:15:03  <glx> I think many OrderType expect a station
14:16:07  <Samu> nop, BaseStation didn't work, still says invalid station for a station with id 0
14:16:14  <Samu> it's a valid one
14:18:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #223: Add: 12.0-RC1 announcement
14:19:36  <Samu> return index < this->first_unused && this->Get(index) != nullptr;
14:19:40  <Samu> 0 < 0 is false
14:19:49  <TrueBrain> that is true
14:19:59  <Samu> first_unused is 0 why
14:20:12  <glx> if first_unused is 0 you don't have any station
14:20:25  <glx> so 0 is invalid
14:20:44  <glx> maybe some data are loaded before station chunk
14:20:56  <glx> so IsValidID can't work
14:20:58  <Samu> looks empty
14:21:02  <Samu> yah, seems to be it
14:22:05  <Samu> it looks like I'm gonna have to revert IsValidID back to what I had
14:22:12  <Samu> better be on the safe side
14:23:17  <glx> oh of course the order is waypoints, depots, orders, stations
14:24:10  <TrueBrain> hmm .. OpenGFX is still broken?
14:24:52  <Samu> im editing orders, so, i dont have stations yet
14:25:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #72: Add: [Actions] Make NML warnings more visible in pull requests
14:25:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 merged pull request #72: Add: [Actions] Make NML warnings more visible in pull requests
14:25:54  <glx> hmm now I need to do a release
14:26:05  <TrueBrain> would be sweet :D
14:28:11  <andythenorth> release early, release often :)
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14:31:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9513: Change: Use colourblind-friendly gradient for linkgraph
14:31:58  <Samu> where did you see the order stuff is loaded?
14:32:11  <TrueBrain> grrr, LordAro made a typo, and I was wondering why I didn't see the post :P
14:32:14  <Samu> need to find out if I already have stations when loading linkgraph
14:32:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #224: Fix: filename for the 12.0-RC1 post was missing an extension
14:33:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 opened pull request #75: Doc: Changelog for 7.1 release
14:35:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #75: Doc: Changelog for 7.1 release
14:37:30  <Samu> i dont quite understand linkgraph's business, do u have a savegame that makes use of it?
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14:37:53  <Samu> or, how do i see it in action
14:38:02  <peter1138> cargo dist
14:38:24  <TrueBrain> <- I love how all translators are checking in :)
14:38:53  <glx> and you can draw links as an overlay
14:39:19  <TrueBrain> <- quick approval plz? :)
14:39:29  <TrueBrain> I hate that these trivial changes even need approval .. lol
14:39:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 approved pull request #224: Fix: filename for the 12.0-RC1 post was missing an extension
14:40:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #224: Fix: filename for the 12.0-RC1 post was missing an extension
14:40:17  <glx> approval is "optional" for us ;)
14:40:21  <TrueBrain> lets see if it shows up on the website now ..
14:40:26  <glx> but we are nice people
14:40:41  <TrueBrain> yeah, and requires me to reconfigure the repo .. :P
14:41:10  <glx> you are not admin on this one ?
14:41:21  <TrueBrain> we have this checkbox that even admins cannot merge without approval
14:41:25  <TrueBrain> so it didn't do me any good
14:41:48  <TrueBrain> and it is one of those repos where normally it is a good idea to have that on :)
14:41:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 merged pull request #75: Doc: Changelog for 7.1 release
14:42:12  <TrueBrain> okay, Steam and GOG done ... now to wait for the website :P
14:42:31  <glx> yeah better to prevent mistakes appearing on the website too easily
14:43:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 created new tag: 7.1
14:43:36  <TrueBrain> now to find someone with BaNaNaS permissions to upload 7.1? :D
14:43:45  <TrueBrain> tnx btw glx :)
14:44:11  <TrueBrain> now to figure out how to get those files on GOG and Steam again .. I really forgot how I did that :P
14:44:29  <glx> they are in a different package
14:44:44  <glx> I think you do it manually
14:44:54  <TrueBrain> yeah, automating this was ... tricky
14:45:11  <TrueBrain> owh, for GOG it is just the tar file, so that is easy
14:46:01  <TrueBrain> same for Steam, good
14:46:14  <Samu> got another assert, again IsValidID ruining it
14:46:19  <Samu> :p
14:47:24  <glx> but the build is not published yet
14:47:40  <TrueBrain> I know :) Just preparing :)
14:47:52  <TrueBrain> I should stream what a release means some day ..
14:48:14  <glx> press a button, fill a field, press a button
14:48:20  <glx> magic
14:48:32  <TrueBrain> 6 open browser windows, is where it starts :P
14:49:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.35
14:49:07  <glx> oh you mean the paperwork
14:49:14  <TrueBrain> yup
14:49:22  <TrueBrain> especially GOG and Steam .. parts are not possible to automate
14:49:22  <glx> the annoying part
14:49:29  <TrueBrain> it is REALLY boring
14:56:51  <Samu> can  LinkGraph::BaseNode::station ever be INVALID_STATION? How to figure out this chinese code
14:57:28  <TrueBrain> oops, I fucked up Steam .. lets fix that :)
14:57:42  <Samu> it can be during Init, but then other than that, I'm so lost, no idea what it does
14:58:19  <TrueBrain> there we go
14:58:28  <TrueBrain> guess andythenorth can upload OpenGFX 7.1 to BaNaNaS? :D
15:02:55  <TrueBrain> @topic set 1 1.11.2 / 12.0-RC1
15:02:55  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.11.2 / 12.0-RC1 | Website: * (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
15:03:02  <TrueBrain> I think that should be all
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15:20:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kevinfields777 commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
15:20:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #9433: [Bug]: World generation seed from openttd.cfg is ignored
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15:22:50  <TrueBrain> where we started off with TURN being used ~2 play-weeks a day .. we are currently at 2 play-hours a day .. with similar active users :)
15:22:59  <TrueBrain> very curious what this will do when we release 12.0 :)
15:25:04  <TrueBrain>
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15:25:53  <TrueBrain> and 82% of the servers didn't use port-forwarding :)
15:32:50  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i imagine we don't have good stats for older servers?
15:32:58  <LordAro> so can't predict how it will scale up
15:33:18  <TrueBrain> nope
15:33:20  <TrueBrain> time will tell :D
15:33:53  <glx> the only stat for old servers is 0% stun/turn :)
15:34:05  <TrueBrain> :D
15:34:20  <TrueBrain> guess I should write a news post tomorrow or so explaining what the new network stuff is about
15:34:23  <TrueBrain> explaining that TURN is expensive
15:34:35  <TrueBrain> and see if that triggers more donations :D
15:35:29  <TrueBrain> reminds me I should still look into putting the wiki behind Cloudflare
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15:45:38  <LordAro> TrueBrain: is the wiki expensive currently?
15:46:03  <LordAro> i thought that compared to bananas (and turn eventually, i suppose) it was negligible
15:46:27  <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is the #1 cost, yes
15:46:31  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is done via OVH VPSes
15:46:35  <TrueBrain> so that is almost nothing nowedays
16:15:56  <Samu> station_sl.cpp has been handled
16:16:06  <Samu> next is vehicle_sl.cpp, this one is big
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16:17:47  <Samu> there's also oldloader_sl.cpp, unsure how im gonna test that
16:19:10  <Samu> last_station_visited and targetairport for the oldloader_sl
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16:57:02  <spnda> do the default road types have any RoadTypeInfo?
17:04:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda updated pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
17:06:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda updated pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
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17:11:31  <spnda> did I break gh actions
17:12:33  <glx> they are queued
17:17:59  <Samu> I think vehicle_sl.cpp is done now
17:18:10  <Samu> effect vehicles get in the way too much
17:18:32  <Samu> disaster vehicle, have to test them
17:20:02  <Samu> now moving on to my next problem, which is... nobody can build stations!
17:20:39  <Samu> because p1 and p2 bits in commands
17:20:45  <Samu> have to be updated too
17:22:11  <Samu> i made the new pool use 20 bits
17:22:15  <Samu> up from 16
17:22:36  <Samu> let's hope I don't find some limitation along
17:29:06  <Samu> wow... map array index is only 16 bits? :(
17:29:18  <Samu> so much work :/
17:30:31  <Samu> I didn't expect increasing stationids to be this giant of a task
17:31:18  <glx> and you're doing it only for your personal usage
17:36:03  <Samu> what's easier? increase m2 to 32 bits (or 20 if possible), or use m2 + me8 bits ?
17:36:27  <glx> don't increase m2
17:36:54  <glx> you don't want to increase map memory usage just for one thing
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17:38:03  <Samu> maybe m3, bits 3210  seem easier
17:38:56  <Samu> nah, im going with m8
17:40:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
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18:46:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:46:45  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:04:14  <TrueBrain> That moment you see 12.0-RC1 on front-page of hacker news .. why?! Lol
19:04:24  <TrueBrain> At least wait till 12.0
19:07:16  <glx> but it may help to get the network stuff tested
19:08:29  <TrueBrain> Just the news post is not all that clear that is what 12.0 is about :D
19:16:44  <Samu> I'm in the realm of GB, SB, >>, <<, &, |, ~
19:29:32  <blindvt> TrueBrain, test coverage never hurts i'd say ;) Remember freshmeat?
19:44:03  <Samu> is this readable enough? GetStationIndex() { return (StationID)(_m[t].m2 | (GB(_me[t].m8, 12, 4) << 16)); }
19:44:52  <Samu> in station_map.h
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19:53:32  <Samu> map array is prepared! now the boring part... fix all DoCommand that use p1/p2 for storing StationIDs
19:53:50  <Samu> is there a quick way to know which commands are they?
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19:58:13  <TrueBrain> lol :D
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20:00:05  <glx> should be easy to make it bigger :)
20:00:54  <andythenorth> funny how much bigger even 8bpp / 1x zoom grfs are
20:01:18  <andythenorth> Iron Horse is 25MB
20:04:58  <Samu> I need 4 bits, this is the biggest offender atm,
20:06:30  <Samu> i was considering bits 12-31 from p2, but railstations already use them
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20:19:46  <blindvt> so network is a bit less disentangled than i would have hoped.
20:20:23  <blindvt> I take it the server communication is a raw proto?
20:22:52  <TrueBrain> Lol, we are now top news on Hacker News .. lol
20:22:59  <blindvt> ISTR freeciv too has it's own raw protocol. But that was in C last time i looked and was rather cumbersome to extend albeit rather well thought out, admittedly
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20:24:57  <andythenorth> ha ha so we are :)
20:26:15  <blindvt> TrueBrain, eeck. It mentions some "TransportFewer2" whatever _that_ might be ;)
20:28:43  <blindvt> but this raises a valid point:
20:30:18  <blindvt> It would really help if there were some 2 "packs" one would find to bring the game up to snuff, graphics and game-wise for people (like /me, eventually) who just Want To Play (tm)
20:31:31  <blindvt> well, to be honest, i don't but the kids do, fwiw
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20:34:11  <blindvt> that'd be awesome. As it stands, i think openttd looses alot of attention because the default isn't really looking all that well and people have no one-click guidance on what to enable which really is a pity imho
20:37:11  <blindvt> (and there's no OSX support for an iMac from about 8 years ago. Although a pain to provide it really does loose users. Worse, kids, who are stuck what hardware their parents provide to them)
20:38:08  <blindvt> and every lost kid is a quatruple loss in terms of user-base, at least and obviously :-/
20:38:39  * blindvt &
20:40:20  <FLHerne> well, kids can install Linux on their 8-year-old iMacs so they can run OpenTTD
20:40:49  <LordAro> blindvt: most people here think that ogfx looks better than zbase
20:41:23  <LordAro> perhaps the fact that the default max zoom is 4x doesn't help
20:41:37  <FLHerne> It's not OTTD's fault that Apple is actively hostile to software development for their platform
20:41:49  <LordAro> ^
20:42:22  <FLHerne> [fwiw, I *was* the kid who installed Linux on his ancient Apple laptop so I could run OpenTTD on it]
20:42:50  <blindvt> FLHerne, 8 year old kids cannot install linux on their 8-year-old iMacs. They'd rely on tech-savvy parents to do it for them. As there are no tech-savvy parents who torture their kids with ancient apple stuff, those are of no help, in contrast, such parents forbid their kids to hack their apples. That's the sad truth
20:43:07  <FLHerne> er
20:43:13  <FLHerne> > there are no tech-savvy parents who torture their kids with ancient apple stuff
20:43:16  <FLHerne> that would be my dad
20:43:36  <glx> and making openttd run on recent apple is a pain too, usually implies a lot of change on perfectly good code
20:43:42  <blindvt> FLHerne, poor guy :)
20:43:53  <FLHerne> Taught me how to write C programs and install operating systems, gave me an ancient Powerbook that has never been supported by either OSX or any upstream Linux kernel
20:44:10  <FLHerne> it ran OpenTTD just fine, sort of :p
20:44:35  <glx> and often the forced changes break compatibility on older apple
20:44:59  <blindvt> yea apple always was hostile, from NeXT to Now. I'm very well aware of that. And it will never ever change
20:45:21  <blindvt> glx, i know. Just sayin'
20:46:19  <LordAro> nothing stopping you from using older versions of OTTD
20:46:31  <LordAro> other than being harder to use MP
20:46:45  <FLHerne> <- in fact, that was my second tt-forums thread
20:46:55  <FLHerne> the first one was begging the devs to support MacOS 9.x
20:48:06  <FLHerne> that clearly wasn't happening, so I learned to compile weird downstream-patched Linux kernels and install them on crazy hardware, and that's kind of how I became a programmer and occasional devops guy :D
20:48:08  <blindvt> LordAro, sure. The parents of that poor kid installed some other train simulator that they happend to find, which is a pity. But well
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20:48:38  <nielsm> oh, we have one confirmation on someone working on a 12.0 title screen
20:48:57  <nielsm> I'll still try my hand at filming EmperorJake's, and making that as my own submission then
20:50:23  <blindvt> FLHerne, then you're the lucky one! Dozends of others run windows now, maybe even hundreds of people worldwide *blink*
20:51:43  <blindvt> or MacOS or grashopper or whatever OS the world fancies today
20:51:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] r-a-sattarov opened pull request #9575: Feature: Add use of Intel Intrinsics & RDTSC on e2k (MCST Elbrus 2000)
20:53:15  <FLHerne> ...speaking of support for bizarre hardware...
20:53:20  <FLHerne> wtf is that
20:53:34  <nielsm> a russian arch I think
20:53:49  <LordAro> i have never heard of that compiler before
20:54:02  <FLHerne> in case you want to play OTTD while awaiting nuclear launch orders?
20:54:04  <LordAro> and a significant part of my job is working with strange compilers
20:54:22  <FLHerne> I can't imagine consumers buying such a machine, for obvious reasons
20:55:29  <LordAro>
20:55:31  <LordAro> bizarre.
20:55:59  <LordAro> but hey, if linux supports it...
20:56:16  <Samu> I found a discrepancy
20:56:31  <_aD> "it's another number added to Java's install statistic"
20:56:37  <nielsm> VLIW makes me think of Transmeta and Itanium
20:56:43  <nielsm> and we know how successful those were
20:57:13  <_aD> Hey, my Crusoe-based Sony Vaio laptop was successful!
20:57:19  <_aD> Until it meta watery death, while charging.
20:57:44  <glx> <-- if I put a buoy (so both pf types can find the path) no assert is triggered
20:58:24  <Samu> StationID NEW_STATION = 0xFFFE in station_type.h, but STATION_NEW = 0xFFFD in script_basestation.hpp
20:58:37  <Samu> it's different
20:58:40  <blindvt> i've heard of e2k support like that once or twice before. Doesn't hurt.
20:59:06  <nielsm> glx: I love the idea of vehicle names affecting pathfinder behavior, let's put that into production immediately!
20:59:25  <glx> well it's on top of drawpf so
20:59:27  <LordAro> nielsm: my undergrad thesis was a (very basic) 'reimplementation' of the crusoe
20:59:29  <nielsm> okay it's just some additional checks but...
20:59:30  <LordAro> good stuff.
20:59:35  <_aD> nielsm: So my "Fiddlewick Rapidfire Limes" trains will be even quicker?
20:59:45  <_aD> Quicklime production increases 12% !
21:00:26  <Samu> is this worth of fixing, or too late for that?
21:00:36  <Samu> or is it not really an issue
21:01:35  <glx> at least in my small test save that somehow confirms forcing trackdir node is not required, but I should try more games and not filter on boat name
21:03:21  <LordAro> Samu: depends what they're used for
21:03:28  <LordAro> sounds suboptimal, for sure
21:05:36  <glx>     uint p2 = (ScriptStation::IsValidStation(station_id) ? station_id : INVALID_STATION) << 16;
21:06:03  <glx> so value doesn't really matter ;) (0XFFFE is for ajacent stations)
21:06:39  <glx> but that's probably another whole area of affected stuff
21:30:14  <Samu> gotta sleep, cyas good night
21:36:56  <andythenorth> lol
21:37:07  <andythenorth> given that Apple can't write software for their current supported platform
21:37:17  <andythenorth> and then some people also expect legacy support?
21:37:44  <andythenorth> I'd settle for 'not riddled with vulns and non-working software' :P
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21:38:32  <andythenorth> over 'can play open source train game on 10 year old hardware'
21:38:52  <andythenorth> currently neither is true so eh
21:41:05  <nielsm> I wonder if I could get current ottd to compile for windows nt 4 somehow... it'd mostly be a question of finding a compiler that will use a runtime library that doesn't (hard) depend on newer APIs
21:42:51  <nielsm> I'm still very annoyed by the fact that gcc/msys went the weird route of linking against microsoft's runtime library when that's total nonsense on the windows platform (the compiler provides the runtime library, not the os)
21:44:41  <glx> hmm we require WinXP as minimal API (ignoring compiler minimum)
21:45:46  <glx> and mingw produced exe requires at least vista IIRC
21:47:33  <nielsm> I think cygwin does provide its own base runtime, but it's weird in its own ways that makes it behave too little like a proper windows application
21:48:44  <glx> oh assert triggered (I'm running a test game with 3 shipAI and me using ships only)
21:48:57  <nielsm> and yeah there are a couple API uses in the game that require w2k or xp, and I think some runtime detected vista or 7+ API uses
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22:05:47  <michi_cc> We removed some dynamic linking in the last clean-up round, but I'm not sure off-hand if XP is indeed the baseline now.
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22:17:18  <LordAro> "As much as I like that we can now play open TTD via the internet, with this latest update it appears to have removed almost all of the signals and I don't know how to get these back"
22:17:24  <LordAro> well that was predictible
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22:20:53  <_aD> LordAro: Where were you when the OpenTTD Signal War began?
22:21:11  <_aD> what on Earth do they mean by "can now play via the Internet"?
22:21:58  <LordAro> presumably they've misunderstood the multiplayer changes
22:22:03  <glx> ok seems my assert only trigger when both pf can't find a path
22:22:20  <LordAro> or are only just now able to play multiplayer
22:23:07  <_aD> ooh there's multiplayer changes?
22:23:15  * _aD investigates changes.doc
22:23:29  <glx> minor changes, no need to open ports
22:23:47  <glx> and possibility to play private
22:24:29  <nielsm> so we should figure out discord and/or steam friends integration for v13 right
22:24:30  <glx> and invite codes
22:26:00  <_aD> aha, so you've unlocked multiplayer to the masses.
22:26:32  <glx> it was already possible for most to play on other servers
22:26:40  <glx> now anybody can host :)
22:27:55  <_aD> this is one heck of a changelog, lots of work put into this RC.
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22:33:08  <glx> let's change the test block to only assert when both have found a path
22:34:06  <glx> but I now know exitdir and trackdir can diverge when they can't find a path
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22:39:36  <glx> <-- poor pink AI blocked by blue AI
22:50:52  <_aD> TrollAI (TM)
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