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00:35:13 *** Etua has quit IRC 00:45:48 *** glx has quit IRC 00:55:18 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 00:57:10 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 00:58:12 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 00:58:12 *** Gustavo6046_ is now known as Gustavo6046 01:16:45 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 01:20:20 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 01:20:20 *** Gustavo6046_ is now known as Gustavo6046 01:40:12 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 01:43:46 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 01:43:46 *** Gustavo6046_ is now known as Gustavo6046 01:53:05 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:42:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 opened issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 02:45:55 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:49:15 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:58:16 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 02:58:58 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 03:05:29 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:27:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 03:38:46 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 03:39:39 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 03:57:23 *** roadt__ has quit IRC 04:04:10 *** _aD has quit IRC 04:06:21 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:09:33 *** roadt has joined #openttd 05:04:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 opened issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 05:12:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9629: Fix #9626, ddafc0d: Incorrect loading of script saved data https://git.io/J666K 05:41:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames https://git.io/J6iGg 06:03:46 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 06:29:30 *** roadt has quit IRC 06:30:38 *** roadt has joined #openttd 06:42:48 *** roadt_ has joined #openttd 06:45:16 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 06:45:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 06:49:43 *** roadt has quit IRC 06:52:16 *** tokai has quit IRC 07:09:41 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:32:55 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:39:03 *** Samu has joined #openttd 09:51:37 *** tokai has joined #openttd 09:51:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 09:58:36 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 10:23:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9629: Fix #9626, ddafc0d: Incorrect loading of script saved data https://git.io/J6zET 10:23:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9626: [Bug]: Some gamescripts appear to be broken after loading 1.11.2 saves https://git.io/J64wa 10:55:57 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 10:56:02 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 10:56:23 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 12:07:09 <andythenorth> yo 12:14:07 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:14:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:18:00 <dP> hm, so far 4 people asked in server chat how to start a new company and only one how to enable block signals 12:18:09 <dP> coz https://i.imgur.com/mkomyMI.png 12:18:11 <dP> xDD 12:18:54 <glx> so they immediately closed the client window after joining ? 12:19:17 <dP> idk, but even if they didn't it's not that clear 12:20:29 <dP> usually goes like this: https://i.imgur.com/c5pJEv2.png 12:21:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 12:38:22 <glx> so #9622 and #9630 are almost duplicates, and I still can't reproduce any 12:45:31 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 12:51:10 <dP> hm, I was trying to repro some crash I had but found another issue 12:51:23 <dP> fullscreen doesn't seem to resize correcly on second monitor 12:52:18 <dP> https://i.imgur.com/qq6lLUX.png 12:52:30 <dP> not sure if that's some gnome issue or openttd 12:53:58 <dP> window title is rendered but not functional... 12:55:03 <glx> window title is handled by the system usually 12:56:50 <dP> well, it may be caused by openttd as it seems to have ehm... "canvas" size more that screen size in fullscreen 12:57:28 <dP> it seems to resize to primary monitor dimensions 12:57:46 <dP> despite being fullscreened on the secondary one 12:58:05 <glx> would not be surprising 12:58:32 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 13:03:14 <glx> dP: related to #9531 maybe 13:05:34 <dP> yeah, maybe 13:06:04 <dP> doesn't crash for me but I'm not plugging in monitors either 13:08:19 <LordAro> dP: i get that occasionally (resizes incorrectly) with i3 13:08:25 <LordAro> i've always assumed it was i3 related 13:13:13 <dP> lol, somehow after a bunch of fullscreening and resizing I ended up with 32767 wide window xD 13:33:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened issue #9632: [Crash]: Clicking any building buttons in the top menu crashes if game window hight is too small https://git.io/J6yxM 13:34:24 <dP> not quite what I was looking for but I guess it's something... 13:43:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #9632: [Crash]: Clicking any building buttons in the top menu crashes the game if window hight is too small https://git.io/J6yxM 13:55:25 <glx> likely duplicate of #8869 ;) 13:58:12 <LordAro> probably not quite a duplicate, but some sort of thing 13:59:21 <glx> same effect, too small window is prone to invert min and max 14:01:45 *** Montana has joined #openttd 14:12:52 <dP> well, known crashes are better than unknown crashes :p 14:13:49 <dP> also for some reason window sometimes resizes to min height when exiting fullscreen 14:13:56 <dP> so I'm not just nitpicking 14:28:32 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 14:33:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] iTKerry commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 14:45:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8966: Feature: News/advice setting to warn if no depot order in vehicle schedule https://git.io/JYNbo 14:49:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8966: Feature: News/advice setting to warn if no depot order in vehicle schedule https://git.io/JYNbo 14:51:21 *** Max has joined #openttd 14:51:56 *** Max is now known as Guest3546 14:56:32 <dP> wasn't there pr for #9631 already, what happened to it? 15:02:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 15:05:57 <dP> oh, guess it was never pr'ed huh 15:05:58 <dP> https://github.com/vituscze/OpenTTD/commit/ba7b0390bf62607cf59be918db12b2b17debafe3 15:09:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 15:14:02 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:16:25 <glx> yeah I got the crash 15:16:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 15:18:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 15:22:27 *** _aD has joined #openttd 15:24:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 15:30:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 15:34:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] same-f commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 15:42:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9622: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup[Crash]: https://git.io/JKPVe 15:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes wonder what statistics people have to determine what "most people" want or need 15:43:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LEB0VSKI commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 15:43:58 <glx> noisy thread 15:44:16 <Rubidium> egotistics? 15:44:29 <glx> ok I think I fixed the crash 15:45:33 <Rubidium> although asking in your social media bubble might yield similar results 15:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably true 15:47:21 <LordAro> why doesn't the train go into the depot there anyway? 15:47:35 <LordAro> path signal should route it into the right-hand depot, no? 15:47:48 <LordAro> oh, it'll be routed specifically to the left one 15:47:50 <LordAro> probably 15:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: probably last wagon still reserves the exit track, and entering train doesn't have a penalty for that, so chooses the blocked depot 15:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so we need a penalty for "crossing track has a reservation" 15:53:30 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 15:53:41 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 15:53:41 *** Gustavo6046_ is now known as Gustavo6046 15:54:01 <dP> why would double depots suddenly stop working? 15:54:11 <dP> for all we know it can have orders to go to the bottom one 15:54:24 *** Montana has quit IRC 15:54:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #9633: Fix #9630, #9622: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings https://git.io/J6H5V 15:55:29 <LordAro> aha 15:57:15 <glx> I though we fixed commit checker 16:04:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J6QvI 16:11:20 <LordAro> going all in on the controversial changes, i see 16:13:16 <dP> oh god, I found their social bubble but starting to regret it already %) 16:14:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 16:15:30 <LordAro> dP: rau117 & friends? 16:15:38 <dP> yup 16:15:47 <LordAro> oh dear 16:20:27 <LordAro> glx: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/9 nope. 16:21:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LEB0VSKI commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 16:23:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 16:35:11 <dP> it's actually kinda sad, at some point someone was reviewing the changelog while massively misunderstanding most of the changes he highlighted 16:35:31 <dP> including #9280 that was basically made by another cooper 16:37:46 <LordAro> well, we dealt with the same last time round with all the mapgen changes 16:38:00 <LordAro> sorry, "mapgen", "changes" 16:38:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #9633: Fix #9630, #9622: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings https://git.io/J6H5V 16:39:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J6QXv 16:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <dP> why would double depots suddenly stop working? <-- they didn't stop working. but they only work while at least one wagon is still inside the depot. there's this blind spot for half a tile, when the last wagon already exited 16:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that's what i interpret into the picture. didn't actually test it myself 16:41:52 <dP> I think there is something else going on that picture 16:42:15 <dP> at least that's the first time I hear about blind spot 16:42:32 <dP> not that I play with breakdowns that much 16:42:38 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:43:49 <dP> actually, that looks like an optional double depot, that is expected to not work 16:43:59 <dP> as it picks depot when it decides to service 16:44:08 <dP> double depots only work if forced iirc 16:44:21 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> could be that, too 16:45:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J6Q9o 16:45:38 <TrueBrain> okay ... TURN is about 1 GB per day 16:45:43 <TrueBrain> which is ~9 dollarcent per day 16:45:46 <TrueBrain> that is far less than I expected 16:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> do we bother commenting on people using a phone to get a "screenshot"? 16:46:38 <dwfreed> kids these days don't know what Print Screen does 16:46:47 <dwfreed> or even where it is on the keyboard 16:46:54 <TrueBrain> wait, you can make an image of this digital device without another digital device? Tssk 16:47:05 <dwfreed> fucking magic 16:47:18 <glx> I just use windows+shift+S 16:47:26 <LordAro> ^ 16:47:43 <dwfreed> I have never actually used the snipping tool 16:48:16 <LordAro> it stopped being snipping tool some versions ago :p 16:48:19 <LordAro> snip & sketch now 16:48:29 <LordAro> and win+shift+s skips all the interface anyway 16:48:30 <TrueBrain> I still use snipping tool 16:48:33 <TrueBrain> YOU DONT PAY MY SUBSCRIPTION 16:49:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 16:50:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J6Qbu 16:50:46 <TrueBrain> Lol @ LordAro .. I was about to reply I do not like it :P 16:50:49 <TrueBrain> what makes "100" special 16:50:55 <TrueBrain> it is such a weird special case :P 16:50:55 <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:52:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J6QA7 16:53:21 <TrueBrain> in my opinion, the only way to get out of this "I want my maps to be generated XXX" is to let go of climates completely 16:54:21 <TrueBrain> just bring power to the end-user, and be done with it once and for all :P 16:54:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J6Qp1 16:56:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J6Qja 17:32:45 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/273533192601075712/900436343702839367/unknown.png <- I might have gone insane :P 17:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and you realize that only just now? :p 17:38:25 <TrueBrain> on Discord I was wondering what would happen if we build new games in layers, that are put on top of each other .. heightmap .. climate .. towns .. bit like how they are currently generated 17:38:31 <TrueBrain> but allow configuring each layer as their own 17:38:34 <TrueBrain> (advanced users only, ofc) 17:39:01 <TrueBrain> to remove a lot of the complexity that is now called our settings 17:39:45 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:39:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J67yw 17:44:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: that's the rimworld gui... it's awful 17:45:56 <TrueBrain> never played Rimworld 17:46:09 <glx> only saw it in streams 17:46:15 <dP> aren't they already kind of layered? or do you mean just in the GUI? 17:46:20 <glx> buttons every where :) 17:46:23 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/900439786551128105/unknown.png better reflection of what I mean 17:46:45 <dP> because logically they may be relatively separate atm but more advanced generators may need more complex relations between layers 17:47:13 <dP> for example, realistic generator I'm working on generates river network first and uses that to generate terrain 17:47:45 <TrueBrain> one section can lock the other 17:47:55 <TrueBrain> but a GUI system like this would exactly allow these kind of custom generators 17:49:59 <TrueBrain> basically it is about bringing the settings close to what it configures, instead of global settings that might do what you expect .. but possibly don't :P 17:50:58 <dP> yeah, that sounds logical 17:51:09 <dP> also different generators will need their own sets of settings 17:51:15 <TrueBrain> would also allow Squirrel-generators :P :P 17:51:22 <dP> oh god 17:52:05 <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/frosch123/889b6478a6d5d7b10f89d9b014845331/raw/9e785f3ccf0bc4b6a26e16967f0ce6065253ae6c/rimworld_newscenario2.png 17:52:14 <frosch123> on the right is a scrollable list of setting and starting conditions 17:52:29 <frosch123> you add stuff via a dropdown at the button on the left 17:52:34 <dP> considering the most time-consuming part of my generator atm is done by fftw3 and it's still relatively slow I heavily doubt usefulness of squirrel there :p 17:52:34 <TrueBrain> that is fully on the other side of the spectrum, lol 17:53:11 <TrueBrain> I was going for a simplification 17:53:21 <TrueBrain> not a .. write a JSON blob in a GUI-like fashion :) 17:53:52 <glx> frosch123: and that's just the scenario settings, many ingame windows are as complex 17:54:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: sometimes people use groupboxes with a checkbox in the title to disable the groupbox / use defaults 17:54:40 <TrueBrain> something like that 17:54:51 <TrueBrain> just something where you define settings per layer 17:55:00 <TrueBrain> so you can say: run river from 0 to 255 17:55:06 <frosch123> glx: the issue with rimworld is, vanilla is unplayable, you have to add two dozen of mods to make it interesting, that's why you get the gui clutter 17:55:11 <TrueBrain> and not make it depend on snow, desert, ... 17:56:13 <TrueBrain> I am just so done with the endless amount of exceptions on exceptions we have .. the code is unreadable, and people keep finding "but I want this niche to be supported" :) 17:57:44 <frosch123> well, what can you do :) grass-tile-graphics, snow and desert are coupled 17:57:52 <frosch123> you cannot have snow and desert on the same map 17:58:03 <frosch123> and you cannot have topic grass with snow 17:58:10 <frosch123> and toyland is even more an exception 17:58:12 <TrueBrain> not saying one option doesn't rule out another option :) That is perfectly fine 17:58:24 <TrueBrain> (as long as it is clear why, ofc) 18:03:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #9633: Fix #9630: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings https://git.io/J65ki 18:03:33 <TrueBrain> I wish it was quicker to develop with our UI, just to try out some things :D 18:10:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J653f 18:10:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler closed pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J6QvI 18:10:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J653k 18:11:03 <frosch123> aw, 2 seconds too late :p 18:11:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 18:12:55 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:12:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:13:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic https://git.io/J65GB 18:13:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames https://git.io/J65GA 18:13:53 <TrueBrain> I had to launch 1.11 to be absolutely sure it didn't remember signal types 18:13:54 <TrueBrain> it really doesn't :) 18:14:06 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 18:14:30 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 18:14:30 *** Gustavo6046_ is now known as Gustavo6046 18:16:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9612: Add: Draw rotor in cursor when dragging helicopters. https://git.io/J65cr 18:16:23 <frosch123> TrueBrain: there was a setting for default signal 18:16:29 <TrueBrain> yes 18:16:31 <TrueBrain> I wrote that :) 18:16:47 <TrueBrain> but he claims it remembered his last signal type used 18:16:50 <TrueBrain> that is simply not the case :P 18:17:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J65C7 18:17:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler closed pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists https://git.io/J6Q9o 18:17:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #9636: [Bug]: You can load a game script in the intro game. https://git.io/J65WY 18:18:12 <TrueBrain> eeuuhhh @ james .. 18:18:14 <TrueBrain> do we want to support that? 18:18:16 <TrueBrain> like, at all :P 18:19:28 <dP> TrueBrain, I think he's fine with either setting. Remembering last used will just allow that setting to be more hidden. 18:19:56 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:20:11 <TrueBrain> I really have no opinion on it, I have to admit 18:20:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: james uses negations correctly :) new-game settings should not affect the titlegame 18:20:56 <frosch123> but "saving the titlegame via console" is already pretty weird 18:21:33 <TrueBrain> owh, oaky, I totally misread what he wrote 18:21:33 <frosch123> it's actually funny... how often did we tell people to copy/rename opntitle.dat to look at the titlegame 18:21:37 <TrueBrain> as what he does is even worse :P 18:21:38 <TrueBrain> lol 18:21:39 <frosch123> when you can actually save it via console 18:22:16 <TrueBrain> opening the console in the main menu 18:22:17 <TrueBrain> tssk 18:22:21 <TrueBrain> why did we allow that? :P 18:23:00 <frosch123> to download all bananas content :p 18:23:46 <frosch123> i know i used console in main menu several times, though cannot give an example now 18:25:00 <TrueBrain> I do wonder if that means the GS is loaded during the intro game 18:25:03 <TrueBrain> that would be weird 18:42:02 <dP> STR_RAIL_TOOLBAR_TOOLTIP_BUILD_RAILROAD_SIGNALS :{BLACK}Build railway signals. Ctrl toggles semaphore/light signals 18:42:10 <dP> how does ctrl toggle semaphores? 18:42:30 <frosch123> hold it while building the signal 18:42:52 <frosch123> i.e. build signal by ctrl+click on tile without signal 18:43:01 <frosch123> and without dragging 18:43:02 <dP> oh, so only for a single signal 18:43:15 <frosch123> well, you can drag later 18:43:41 <frosch123> actually, i guess you can also drag while building, just the starttile cannot have a signal 18:44:02 <dP> huh? 18:44:08 <dP> ctrl-drag is autofill 18:44:23 <frosch123> only when there is already signal on the tile 18:44:30 <dP> it seems it only build signal if you drag too little and don't leave the tile 18:44:53 <frosch123> there is a difference between "drag signal starting on tile without signal" and "drag signal starting on tile with signal" 18:46:06 <frosch123> but i guess that is what you get when early on people think semaphores are important, and later you find autofill is a way better feature :p 18:46:50 <dP> both do autofill with ctrl, difference is only what signal it picks 18:46:55 <dP> neither does semaphores 18:47:06 <dP> well, unless semaphore is on the tile ofc 18:47:59 <dP> anyway, I got it I guess 18:48:05 <dP> not gonna touch this shit xD 18:49:03 <frosch123> hmm, i guess the current behavior is unintentional 18:49:11 <frosch123> but i guess noone cares about semaphores :p 18:49:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/J65bk 18:49:41 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 18:50:21 <dP> I only care about semparhores when I accidentally misclick to build one 18:50:36 <dP> actually, I guess that ctrl is the cause 18:50:37 <frosch123> hmm, since when can you no longer drag convert-signal type? 18:50:50 <dP> since if I drag too little it builds semaphore 18:51:13 <dP> just never remembered to investigate that 19:08:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals https://git.io/J6dYB 19:09:23 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/900460602647011418/unknown.png <- cheesy solution 19:09:27 <frosch123> just merge the ctrl-lock button from the android port :p 19:09:31 <TrueBrain> but something like that as "advanced" button on terrain generation? 19:09:57 <TrueBrain> (missing tons of settings etc, but you get the idea) 19:10:32 <frosch123> i always wanted to add a "more mapgen settings" button to mapgen window, that show the settings window with some filter 19:10:42 <frosch123> i..e no new window, just a mapgen-specific filter for the tree 19:10:59 <TrueBrain> this is the settings-window, only modified to make more sense for mapgen :P 19:11:08 <TrueBrain> and a bunch of "hidden" settings 19:11:25 <glx> it should be possible to add a setting flag for that 19:11:44 <TrueBrain> so moving that to a single tree inside the settings is easy 19:11:45 <glx> we already have some no_save, no_network 19:12:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you mean to add "manual primary industry construction method"? 19:12:19 <TrueBrain> I just blindly added every setting in world_settings.ini 19:12:27 <TrueBrain> I just wanted to give an impression :) 19:12:42 <frosch123> why is that setting in world_Settings :p 19:12:55 <TrueBrain> do you really want to go in the mess we call settings? 19:13:11 <TrueBrain> town_layout turns out to be under economy 19:13:18 <TrueBrain> feels a bit odd too :) 19:13:45 <glx> maybe there was a logical explanation at that time 19:14:09 <TrueBrain> but an "advanced" window like this allows people like 2TallTyler to go nuts with extra settings to add, as far as I care :P 19:14:13 <frosch123> maybe i misunderstand the meaning of "world_settings" 19:14:29 <TrueBrain> if we can agree we all misunderstand the meaning, it is fine 19:15:14 <TrueBrain> but again, I was not showing the screenshot to look at the details of it :P 19:15:55 <frosch123> +1 to showing advanced mapgen settings in the tree window 19:15:58 <TrueBrain> but to tick you off more, added random ones I found too: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/273533192601075712/900462320701042698/unknown.png :) 19:16:10 <frosch123> but i would not define a new tree 19:16:33 <frosch123> keep a signle global settings tree, just filter it differently 19:16:33 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:16:33 <TrueBrain> the current setting-groups are just a bit weird for mapgen 19:16:47 <glx> only for mapgen ? 19:16:49 <TrueBrain> but maybe we should just clean that up instead 19:17:01 <frosch123> having settings in different positions does not help :) 19:17:14 <TrueBrain> no, we need 1 settings window 19:17:18 <TrueBrain> and filter for mapgen, on that I agree :D 19:17:28 <frosch123> if they do not fit, move them, but don't have different trees in the same game :p 19:17:40 <TrueBrain> I never even suggested that :P 19:17:47 <TrueBrain> my suggestion is to make a parent node "Map generation" 19:17:50 <TrueBrain> and put these categories under that 19:17:55 <TrueBrain> similar to interface etc 19:18:16 <frosch123> i don't think that works well 19:18:26 <TrueBrain> personally I find it very difficult to understand what settings are mapgen only 19:18:37 <TrueBrain> I can spot it because they are disabled, sometimes 19:19:20 <frosch123> i would expect the "type" dropdown to have a 4th value "set before map generation" or so 19:19:56 <TrueBrain> that is basically making a parent node ;) 19:20:00 <TrueBrain> just hidden in a dropdown :D 19:20:10 <frosch123> currently there is a "world generation" node, but i would rather move all those settings to other nodes 19:20:32 <glx> would be nice to have a filter for client only settings 19:20:32 <frosch123> "road vehicle driving side" just makes no sense as "mapgen setting" 19:20:39 <frosch123> but it is a "set at game start" setting 19:20:51 <TrueBrain> so "New game settings" 19:20:59 <frosch123> glx: there is already 19:21:24 <TrueBrain> but sometimes you can change things in-game which I did not expect 19:21:28 <TrueBrain> like road layout for new towns 19:21:35 <frosch123> maybe the window would be easier to use, if the "type" selection was no dropdown, but radiobuttons 19:21:40 <TrueBrain> I am sure there is some niche market for that, but .. shouldn't we just make it "new game only"? 19:22:03 <frosch123> you can found new towns in-game 19:22:11 <TrueBrain> yes, as I said: niche market :P 19:22:14 <frosch123> i can't remeber whether you can select the road layout for them 19:22:22 <LordAro> you cannot 19:22:39 <frosch123> anyway, what is the point of restricting settings to read-only? 19:22:57 <TrueBrain> because it is now often confusing 19:23:05 <frosch123> it only annoys people who would want to change them 19:23:08 <frosch123> why is it confusing? 19:23:14 <dP> wut? you can select layout when funding 19:23:35 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I have a hard time understand what settings influence what .. it is all so multidimensional 19:23:39 <TrueBrain> like we couldn't make up our mind 19:24:00 <dP> also dunno about town but industry density is quite confusing 19:24:02 <TrueBrain> but good filters also help .. current filters don't allow that :) 19:24:36 <dP> I remember posting link to LugnutsK video where he looked at it and thought it's mapgen only when it did exactly what he was looking for 19:25:21 <TrueBrain> well, industry density is another nice one 19:25:23 <glx> with good filters we could add a button in company window to get company settings 19:25:35 <TrueBrain> glx: that is a filter that already exists :P 19:25:50 <TrueBrain> ironically it doesn't open the only root left in the tree 19:25:52 <frosch123> but the button doesn't :p 19:26:42 <TrueBrain> lol, you can even change the side things drive on in-game? 19:26:58 <TrueBrain> again, I am sure there is a niche market for that, but .... why? :) 19:27:10 <dP> also half of "company" settings are not company settings :p 19:27:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, you can only change as long as there are no road vehicles 19:27:36 <TrueBrain> "Automatically pause when starting a new game" I can change in-game .. 19:28:08 <glx> the only time I changed driving side was when testing my cargo dist arrows 19:28:25 <frosch123> ah yes, we should rename "company" node to something else 19:28:34 <frosch123> people keep thinking they are company settings 19:28:50 <dP> imo better split into company and smth, like client/gui 19:28:55 <TrueBrain> some are, some aren't :P 19:29:18 <TrueBrain> ironically, the "type" filter seems to do the right thing there 19:29:19 <frosch123> company settings is a "type" again, no node 19:29:43 <frosch123> the node "company" is "construction / company administration" 19:29:48 <TrueBrain> so "company" and "client" types make sense .. "game" I don't really understand 19:30:43 <glx> game mixes current running game and new game 19:30:44 <frosch123> "game" settings are the same for all players in a game 19:30:54 <frosch123> "company" settings are the same for all players in a company 19:31:02 <frosch123> "client" settings are different for everyone 19:31:14 <TrueBrain> okay .. I get where it comes from, but that was not clear to me :) 19:31:23 <TrueBrain> (and I can only postulate if that is the case, more people have similar issues :D) 19:31:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: there is a description at the bottom 19:31:46 <frosch123> actually, also in the dropdown in (...) 19:31:47 <TrueBrain> which bottom? 19:32:06 <frosch123> when you select a setting, the panel at the bottom also shows the "setting type" 19:32:08 <frosch123> and what that means 19:32:15 <frosch123> it's the same text as in the dropdown 19:32:29 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/273533192601075712/900466495564439552/unknown.png 19:32:33 <TrueBrain> still not helping me :P 19:32:40 <TrueBrain> your explanation is a lot more clear :) 19:33:00 <frosch123> the texts are different if you open in-game or in intro, i think 19:33:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals https://git.io/J6dYB 19:33:17 <TrueBrain> same text 19:33:40 <frosch123> no, it's "affects only current game" vs "affect only new games" 19:33:52 <TrueBrain> .... right :P 19:34:02 <TrueBrain> still doesn't really explains to me the way you just worded it :) 19:34:13 <TrueBrain> but we can work on that :) 19:34:14 <frosch123> i only explained one axis of the matrix 19:34:53 <frosch123> the other axis is "changing affects current/new game", "changing effects all games" 19:35:00 <frosch123> and don't start with currency :p 19:35:14 <TrueBrain> yeah, but the important axis really isn't all that clear 19:35:20 <glx> the annoying part is when you change a setting in a running game, and forget to do it globally before starting a new game :) 19:35:52 <TrueBrain> hmm .. so the idea is to add "New game" to that, right? 19:35:59 <TrueBrain> as that means in-game those are all read-only, right? 19:36:18 <TrueBrain> New game, Current game, Company, Client, basically? 19:36:22 <frosch123> no, stuff like "industry density" are both :p 19:36:49 <frosch123> "set on new game", but also "changeable in-game" 19:37:04 <TrueBrain> I hope you understand that this is complex for players :P 19:37:34 <frosch123> i don't think so 19:37:39 <TrueBrain> I wonder what happens if we make them checkboxes instead of a dropdown, so you can multiselect 19:37:42 <glx> and we removed many settings from the gui ;) 19:37:51 <frosch123> i think a player does "i want to change X, search X, change it" 19:37:52 <TrueBrain> as in-game, the "new game" settings are not that interesting I guess 19:38:05 <frosch123> while you think "player studies settings tree, and wants to know everything" 19:38:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: with the signal stuff we found out that the "search X" doesn't happen often .. they tend to navigate :P 19:38:42 <TrueBrain> for new-game, I fully assume people walk the tree 19:38:42 <glx> I remember searching "select goods" to find out it was removed from the gui 19:38:51 <frosch123> we need phone-home technology for such claims :p 19:39:07 *** Etua has joined #openttd 19:39:27 <frosch123> glx: searching for settings by their ttdp name is even worse :p 19:39:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: both ways, yes ;) 19:39:42 <frosch123> "select goods" and "autoslope" are just wtf 19:40:04 <TrueBrain> but okay, to just put this to rest for a bit .. splitting up world generation in topics like me screenshot, any issue with that? 19:40:18 <TrueBrain> (so "Terrain generation", "Water / River", ..) 19:40:54 <frosch123> TrueBrain: when i made my mockup, i made sure that you can set settings from top to bottom 19:41:15 <TrueBrain> like my screenshot? 19:41:17 <frosch123> i.e. settings at the top may restrict options for settings below them 19:41:21 <frosch123> but not the other way around 19:41:54 <TrueBrain> I love it when people point to a mockup I cannot see :D :D 19:42:00 <frosch123> "climate" and "land generator" are such settings, which disable other settings 19:42:08 <TrueBrain> yup 19:42:27 <frosch123> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/frosch123/889b6478a6d5d7b10f89d9b014845331/raw/9e785f3ccf0bc4b6a26e16967f0ce6065253ae6c/guiplan202012.png <- that's like the 10th time i linked it :p 19:42:56 <TrueBrain> sorry, my mind-reading-machine broke 19:43:02 <TrueBrain> I do apologize :P 19:43:27 <frosch123> oh, right, the other thing was to group the "generate map"/"load heightmap"/"flat map" into a groupbox 19:43:35 <frosch123> instead of reshuffling everything 19:44:15 <TrueBrain> but ... we were talking about the setting window ;) 19:44:48 <frosch123> sure, but isn't the harder part: what to keep in the main window, before clicking "moar settings"? 19:45:19 <TrueBrain> sometimes this channel is like pinball :) 19:45:24 <TrueBrain> we bounce around a lot :D 19:45:34 <TrueBrain> I was still at: so we want to split World generation 19:45:54 <TrueBrain> next from my screenshot, all the unnamed, are settings that are currently hidden 19:46:27 <frosch123> i can't tell from the name :p 19:46:28 <TrueBrain> if we go for an "advanced" button, do we just want to give the player everything we have? 19:46:32 <TrueBrain> and let them deal with it? 19:46:47 <TrueBrain> yeah, even I don't know what is behind them :D 19:46:59 <frosch123> yes, the goal of the settings tree was to contain everything. the settings that are missing were just difficult to add 19:47:15 <TrueBrain> really? As I read it was pruned 19:47:37 <frosch123> oh, different "hidden" :p 19:48:00 <TrueBrain> we now have multiple definitions of hidden? :o 19:48:06 <TrueBrain> this is such a sinkhole :P 19:48:26 <frosch123> ok, let's say there are "hidden from gui, because deprecated, and players are more likely to break something" 19:48:39 <glx> oh and the setting tree window is "manually" filled 19:48:47 <TrueBrain> so "backwards compatible only, deprecated, DO NOT USE", yeah, I can understand those :) 19:48:48 <frosch123> and there are "missing, because tree does not support the right widget" 19:49:32 <peter1138> Where's the setting to allow stations to fill with cargo without having any service? 19:49:38 <frosch123> "missing" is stuff like "town names" because comboboxes in tree have fixed content (no newgrf town names), same for basesets... 19:49:51 <glx> accessible via the console peter1138 19:49:56 <nielsm> peter1138: "selectcargo" is the name, I think 19:50:02 <TrueBrain> so for example "min_river_length" ? 19:50:18 <TrueBrain> it is just a number, but doesn't have a string 19:50:36 <glx> "list_settings select" should show it 19:50:54 <dP> there is a bunch of pf settigs btw that aren't in the gui 19:50:55 <LordAro> still have to know most of its name 19:51:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: okay, there is a 3rd category: pathfinder settings that are source code constants, but someone made them changeable for debugging/testing? 19:51:06 <LordAro> dP: almost all of which should be removed entirely 19:51:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: we ignore pf, no worries :) 19:51:20 <TrueBrain> that doesn't exist as far as I care :P 19:51:23 <frosch123> min_river_lengths is like yapf.pbs_penatly to me :p 19:51:26 <dP> LordAro, dunno about that 19:51:35 <dP> guess they can be compile constants 19:51:48 <TrueBrain> frosch123: shouldn't we just remove it from settings in that case? 19:52:11 <glx> most pf settings should have been constants once the code was finalised 19:52:32 <TrueBrain> "river_route_random" is similar, but I would have to check what they do to see what is going on there 19:52:40 <TrueBrain> but okay, we will have to take this setting at the time 19:52:42 <glx> I understand how having settings helps when debugging and fine tuning 19:53:05 <peter1138> glx, PR :) 19:53:10 <dP> glx, there are still rare cases when changing some pf constant is helpful 19:53:11 <glx> but some player tends to mess everything by touching pf settings 19:53:17 <dP> like search limit that saves ppls games 19:53:41 <TrueBrain> we could make a "breaking change" release, where we state: IF YOU MODIFIED PF SETTINGS DO NOT UPGRADE TO THIS VERSION 19:53:41 <TrueBrain> and be done with it once and for all :) 19:53:42 <glx> search limit was mostly affecting ships IIRC 19:54:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grenoult opened pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch https://git.io/J6FvV 19:54:50 <TrueBrain> ha, that PR actually fixes something I find highly annoying :) 19:54:59 <dP> glx, not if you do mainline with 10 two-way tracks, 90 deg turns and crosses every 10 tiles xD 19:55:13 <dP> also towns can get quite loopy if they grow and connect 19:55:49 <TrueBrain> okay, I will have to play around with the settings a bit to see what works 19:55:57 <LordAro> TrueBrain: but adds a setting! 19:56:11 <LordAro> should be a trinary setting like the others too 19:56:14 <LordAro> other than that, good! 19:56:15 <TrueBrain> seems one that is worthy of being added :) 19:57:03 <frosch123> can i derail that PR? why is it a bool setting when "first vehicle at player/competitor staton" are separate settings with full/summary/off? :p 19:57:21 <frosch123> similar for industry production changes 19:57:24 <TrueBrain> go for it 19:57:32 <LordAro> that's what i just said :p 19:57:32 <glx> anyway search limit is rarely the pf setting that breaks everything, messing with penalties/costs on the other hand 19:58:54 <dP> what's the problem with config-only settings though? sure, people change them haphazardly sometimes but it doesn't happen that often 19:59:08 <TrueBrain> okay, so basically if we add the category to the .ini files, and autogenerate the categories, we can mark settings as DEPRECATED, and not have an argument about them over and over :D 19:59:16 <dP> but at least that allows ppl who know what they're doing to fine-tune stuff, especially in mp 19:59:39 <TrueBrain> also makes it easier not to forget to add settings to the GUI :P 19:59:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch https://git.io/J6FIi 20:00:07 <TrueBrain> wait, "tuning" pf settings in mp? 20:00:13 <TrueBrain> that sounds like a recipe for disaster :D 20:00:15 <glx> TrueBrain: would be a good starting point 20:00:18 <dP> TrueBrain, twoway_eol ;) 20:00:29 <TrueBrain> when we say "pf", we talk about penalties 20:00:30 <TrueBrain> at least, I am 20:00:55 <frosch123> TrueBrain: let's say, there were people in irc multiple times, who were super annoying about the pf not understanding their broken track layouts, and we could get rid of them by making them mess with pf settings 20:00:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch https://git.io/J6FLb 20:01:07 <frosch123> "just find the right settings, and it will work" :p 20:01:23 <dP> TrueBrain, yeah, penalties would be a more niche case 20:01:24 <TrueBrain> pf.npf and pf.yapf 20:01:32 <TrueBrain> I still think they should die :P Despite those people frosch123 :P 20:01:34 <dP> still, I can imagine ppl testing alternative values together 20:01:54 <TrueBrain> most people I have seen toying with penalties, do not understand what kind of PF the NPF and YAPF are :P 20:02:02 <TrueBrain> and they find "good results" by doing really really stupid shit 20:02:11 <nielsm> also the term "penalty" makes it sound dangerous 20:02:25 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you can also argue that automatic servicing is still broken, because pf settings are weird, and noone uses it anyway :p 20:02:26 <nielsm> like as if a high value makes things bad 20:02:30 <TrueBrain> yeah .. A* normally talks about f/g/h values :) 20:02:47 <TrueBrain> and cost / score :P 20:03:15 <nielsm> seriously, "cost" is the term I've always seen used when talking about shortest path algorithms 20:03:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Laszlo65 commented on issue #9622: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup[Crash]: https://git.io/JKPVe 20:03:27 <TrueBrain> YAPF has some weird picks for names 20:03:31 <dP> TrueBrain, people who know what they're doing with pf are not that visible ;) 20:03:37 <TrueBrain> also how open/closed list is used is slightly unusual 20:03:54 <TrueBrain> but "it works", so yeah, we have that going for us :D 20:05:13 <TrueBrain> so talking about settings 20:05:19 <TrueBrain> how are basic/advanced/expert picked 20:05:34 <TrueBrain> it feels rather random from a "I totally forgot anything about this game" perspective (read: me :D) 20:05:42 <TrueBrain> is it just "who-ever made the PR" kinda thing? 20:05:42 <frosch123> "basic" is "don't confuse new players with a wall of text" 20:05:54 <frosch123> "advanced" is "regular players should use this" 20:06:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9622: [Crash]: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup https://git.io/JKPVe 20:06:08 <dP> imo basic/advanced/expert should just be removed 20:06:11 <frosch123> "expert" is "candidates for removal from gui, but fanboys complain" 20:06:25 <frosch123> however, in practice it's too tedious, so everyone selects "expert" 20:06:38 <frosch123> so the intention was nice, but i think it failed :p 20:06:40 <LordAro> dP: i feel like you didn't see the settings window before there was such a divide 20:06:49 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is a fair answer :) 20:06:52 <nielsm> IMO it should be basic="most players would be interested in knowing this can be changed, and the change won't break your game", advanced="generally doesn't need to be changed, but can be useful in specific circumstances", expert="changing these is usually a bad idea" 20:07:09 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 20:07:11 <dP> LordAro, I always have it on expert anyway 20:07:15 <dP> ppl rarely look through settings just to see what they can change 20:07:32 <dP> usually they look for something and those categories are just extra noobtrap 20:08:05 <TrueBrain> mostly what I run into, that I put it on Expert, forget about it, and get no further feedback what settings I shouldn't really be touching 20:08:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9622: [Crash]: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup https://git.io/JKPVe 20:08:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9633: Fix #9630: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings https://git.io/J6H5V 20:08:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu https://git.io/J6rle 20:08:23 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:08:31 <LordAro> what we want to avoid is the brand new player (i.e. from steam, never seen the game before) looking at the settings window and deciding "too complicated, won't play" 20:08:37 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it resulted in weirness like "select basic, enter search term, get no result, but a message 'consider selecting expert to see more search results'" 20:08:54 <TrueBrain> lol, never saw that :D 20:09:09 <frosch123> new players having "basic" selected, reading about a setting on the internet, search it, find nothing, complain 20:09:15 <frosch123> we had that a lot, then added that hint 20:09:31 <TrueBrain> so okay, we missed the mark there 20:09:34 <TrueBrain> that is fine .. live and learn 20:09:52 <dP> LordAro, somehow I feel most players don't look at settings ever, and brand new ones especially so 20:10:02 <TrueBrain> LordAro: just wait till the open the order GUI :D 20:10:05 <dP> there was setting for block signals did that help? :p 20:10:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh right, another reason from the past: the intention was to remove the "game options" window and move everything to the tree 20:11:15 <frosch123> but then defaulting it to "basic", so you can select your language without the wall of settings :p 20:11:20 <TrueBrain> and that is still a good idea :) 20:13:15 <dP> btw, it may be a good idea to replicate settings ui of browsers 20:13:22 <dP> or smth like android 20:13:36 <dP> it has some categories but is mostly centered around search 20:13:38 <TrueBrain> damn, "basic" still has a shitton of settings :D 20:14:09 <TrueBrain> FF limit .. guess that shouldn't be basic :D 20:14:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames https://git.io/J64Hy 20:14:34 <TrueBrain> inflation .. yeah, "expert" doesn't cover it 20:14:39 <dP> also browsers have semi-hidden settings lists where you can change anything 20:15:23 <TrueBrain> max-numbers-of-blabla .. basic? 20:16:00 <TrueBrain> what would happen if we make "type" like tabs? 20:16:18 <TrueBrain> also allows to add stuff like "Video" and "Audio" what people are used to from other games? Dunno if that is a good idea 20:16:25 <TrueBrain> also allows "NewGRF", "AI", .. 20:16:44 <TrueBrain> so basically radiobuttons frosch123 mentioned earlier, just more tab-like :D 20:17:46 <frosch123> well, in ottd-gui style it's mostly the same 20:18:01 <frosch123> but there is some overlap 20:18:14 <frosch123> "all" can be a separate button, or you could click multiple 20:18:24 <TrueBrain> or we can just drop "all"? 20:18:31 <frosch123> if you add "set at mapgen" then there is overlap between categories 20:18:34 <TrueBrain> and make "search" its own tab? 20:18:36 <TrueBrain> dunno 20:18:46 <TrueBrain> yeah, overlap is fine in my mind :P 20:19:24 <frosch123> "all" is very useful for the categories "settings with different value..." 20:19:37 <TrueBrain> true 20:19:39 <frosch123> though i guess it also works to click the tabs sequentially 20:20:01 <TrueBrain> this just requires experimentation :) 20:20:16 <TrueBrain> but the first step really would be to move categories inside the .ini file, I guess .. 20:20:30 <TrueBrain> and bitch about settings in general, to figure out which should go where :P 20:20:51 <frosch123> categories are already inside the ini file? 20:20:58 <frosch123> or do you mean the tree structure? 20:20:59 <TrueBrain> euhg 20:21:00 <TrueBrain> yupe 20:21:02 <TrueBrain> type 20:21:05 <TrueBrain> euh 20:21:06 <TrueBrain> no 20:21:07 <TrueBrain> ugh 20:21:11 <TrueBrain> sorry, we have too many categories 20:21:15 <TrueBrain> I mean the tree structure yes 20:21:23 <TrueBrain> "page" it is called in the code 20:21:26 <TrueBrain> to just add to the confusion 20:21:46 <frosch123> the problem is the order 20:21:55 <TrueBrain> order of ini-file? :) 20:21:56 <dP> ditch the tree btw, way too complex, absolutely pointless 20:21:59 <TrueBrain> we can now freely move them around :D 20:22:12 <dP> one level of categories 20:22:18 <frosch123> settings in the tree were once sorted to put settings into context 20:22:30 <frosch123> not alphabetically, and not in ini-order 20:22:44 <TrueBrain> but .. can't we make ini-order the same as in-context order? :) 20:22:44 <frosch123> though PRs often just append stuff at the end 20:23:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah right, but that is new in 12.0 :p 20:23:11 <frosch123> you couln'T change the order before 20:23:15 <TrueBrain> :D 20:23:16 <TrueBrain> nope 20:23:19 <TrueBrain> but we have the power now!! :D 20:23:22 <TrueBrain> order is really important 20:23:23 <TrueBrain> so yeah 20:23:27 <frosch123> but there are mutple .ini files now? 20:23:33 <TrueBrain> yes 20:23:43 <frosch123> well, you know better :p 20:23:54 <TrueBrain> I am very tempted to put settings in a file named after the root in the tree 20:23:55 <frosch123> i don't know how free the sorting into .ini files is 20:24:06 <TrueBrain> we are 100% free to reorder it any way we want :P 20:24:15 <TrueBrain> just not between files ;) 20:24:18 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the silly thing is, we have 3 different trees :p 20:24:26 <TrueBrain> exactly what I want to solve :P 20:24:28 <TrueBrain> but 3? I know of 2 .. 20:24:31 <TrueBrain> where is the 3rd hidden? 20:24:45 <frosch123> the gui tree, the [sections] in .cfg, and the dotted.name.in.the.console.and.savegame 20:24:50 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 20:25:03 <TrueBrain> owh, right 20:25:10 <TrueBrain> so yeah ... maybe slap that all in a single structure 20:25:18 <TrueBrain> means I don't search my ass off when searching for anything setting-related 20:25:18 <dP> aren't sections part of the dotted name? 20:25:28 <frosch123> no idea :) 20:25:48 <glx> I think it's section.setting yes 20:25:55 <dP> yep 20:26:04 <TrueBrain> as for the Newgame GUI, for now, I suggest to only add an "Advanced" button there; we can rework the rest of the GUIs at a later stage :) 20:26:17 <glx> except for pf options maybe 20:26:28 <TrueBrain> owh, we can even move settings over sections, as we now have the config-file versionized :D 20:26:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: maybe you can also move the newgrf/ai/gs settings :p 20:26:41 <frosch123> 3 buttons may look nicer than 1 20:26:50 <frosch123> and newgrf/ai/gs are just wrong in main menu 20:26:54 <TrueBrain> yup 20:27:01 <TrueBrain> but, one thing at the time :P 20:27:06 <glx> ha no works for pf settings too, [pf] section and npf.blah is the setting name 20:28:23 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:28:36 <TrueBrain> so this is how all these "projects" start .. cleanup some mess first 20:29:40 <dP> law of conservation of mess :p 20:30:05 <glx> many layers of mess added on top of each other 20:30:21 <dP> messception! 20:31:15 <TrueBrain> to come back to "town funding" 20:31:19 <TrueBrain> the answer is: depends on your setting 20:31:25 <TrueBrain> whether you can select town-layout or not 20:31:37 <TrueBrain> so that is a bit silly .. you can either select for all new towns what their town-layout is 20:31:41 <TrueBrain> or you can enable that you can select it per town 20:31:46 <TrueBrain> feels like double-dipping :D 20:32:33 <frosch123> one setting is controlled by server admin, the other by the founding company 20:32:34 <dP> well, pretty sure mp had a hand in that somewhere 20:32:58 <TrueBrain> context-wise they are miles apart btw 20:33:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: sure, but I keep wondering .. does the server-admin change the town-layout every 10 game-years 20:33:54 <TrueBrain> or what is the usecase here? :D 20:33:57 <TrueBrain> "Because we can"? 20:34:46 <dP> admin may want to change that setting mid-game 20:34:57 <dP> maybe not every 10 years but once can be useful 20:35:09 <glx> happens if it was wrong at start 20:35:21 <dP> though I know of gamescripts(-ish) that change settings during the game 20:35:23 <TrueBrain> but than all towns are "wrong" 20:35:25 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah, you are still on the read-only track :) noone ever checked which settings make sense to change in-game. settings are only readonly, if changing them broke something somewhen 20:35:26 <dP> namely town growth speed 20:35:38 <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah, that is good to know :) 20:35:56 <TrueBrain> okay, who is toying with the "version" addition in BaNaNaS .. 20:36:02 <TrueBrain> "1+0" is not an integer! :P 20:37:08 <TrueBrain> at least I found a bug in bananas-server :P 20:38:10 <TrueBrain> what to do in that case 20:38:13 <TrueBrain> it violates protocol 20:38:15 <TrueBrain> hmm 20:38:25 <glx> is it possible for BaNaNaS to check the external AI/GS version (set on submit) is the same as the internal one ? 20:38:50 <frosch123> ai/gs are maximum complicated :p 20:38:50 <TrueBrain> lot of these dep-checks are absolutely possible, especially since 12.0 20:38:55 <TrueBrain> but .. people have to write it :P 20:39:08 <TrueBrain> similar for NewGRF deps etc .. which might be more useful to start with :) 20:39:29 <frosch123> multiple ai/gs (esp. those from zuu) have the version in a vcs-generated file, which is imported into info.nut 20:39:41 <frosch123> so, you need to run a squirrel vm inside bananas to figure out the version 20:39:45 <frosch123> regex not enough :p 20:39:55 <glx> because I had to remove older downloaded AI/GS when downloading newer versions 20:40:27 <TrueBrain> owh, I thought you meant dep-checks 20:40:33 <TrueBrain> well, at least we can do the easy tests 20:40:36 <TrueBrain> as 90% will work 20:40:42 <TrueBrain> indeed, some people are an exception ;) 20:41:19 <TrueBrain> "string release version (like "12.0")" <- guess we didn't specify each part of that should be an int 20:41:20 <TrueBrain> hmm 20:41:51 <glx> we don't expect int IIRC 20:41:59 <TrueBrain> we sure do 20:42:47 <TrueBrain> * It should never contain things like "beta", but only the release version we are compatible with. 20:42:56 <TrueBrain> so that kinda covers it .. but yeah .. 20:43:42 <TrueBrain> 0.43.1+0 .. yeah .. sounds like a "git describe" at work :D 20:43:52 <TrueBrain> bad JGR :P 20:46:57 <TrueBrain> let's check what went wrong .. choices :D 20:47:59 <glx> as examples I think there's NotPerfectAI, internally it's version 1 for many packages 20:48:30 <TrueBrain> sorry, I did a context switch back to a bug someone triggered on bnanas-server :D 20:48:46 <TrueBrain> I want Discord threads :P 20:49:17 <TrueBrain> glx: for bananas-api validations, we kinda skipped it as: this takes a bit of effort, lets finish it first :) 20:49:45 <glx> perfectly fine 20:49:48 <TrueBrain> #24 and #25 for example are about similar stuff 20:50:08 <TrueBrain> and yeah, people tend to link the wrong one when uploading, so validation would be lovely :) 20:50:19 <TrueBrain> even if it doesn't work in 100% of the time, but the times it rejects it, should be 100% correct :D 20:51:24 <glx> can enter in #23 20:54:37 <TrueBrain> "0.43.1+1" :D 20:54:46 <TrueBrain> yeah, commits since 0.43.1 tag, seems most logic 20:55:13 <TrueBrain> owh, I also have "0.43.1+2" earlier 20:55:20 <glx> lol 20:55:21 <TrueBrain> in JGRPP I cannot find a reason why this + is there 20:56:15 <TrueBrain> this is the kind of thing ..... difficult to have a proper solution 20:56:21 <TrueBrain> either reject the client, and notify the developer something went wrong 20:56:27 <TrueBrain> or accept it, but degrade the result 20:56:31 <TrueBrain> with the chance it is wrong for years 20:56:57 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:57:02 <LordAro> git describe with commits on top, no? 20:57:07 <LordAro> probably JGR doing dev work 20:57:11 <glx> https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/a0cb27b73cc3290b45160aeab27e345f5ab2b504#diff-038b14d7c8863e82da52f1483ac99b2b2461e78280d26401267d0e25a64a1162 ? 20:57:16 <TrueBrain> first I get +2, followed by +1, followed by +0 .. 20:57:21 <TrueBrain> bit weird if that was commits on top :P 20:57:34 <LordAro> half way through a rebase? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 20:57:41 <TrueBrain> possible 20:58:00 <TrueBrain> glx: line 179 suggests this shouldn't be happening 20:58:58 <TrueBrain> ah, no, it doesn't 20:58:59 <TrueBrain> there is no $ 20:59:03 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:59:07 <TrueBrain> so it lets that through just fine 20:59:16 <TrueBrain> okay, so I just have to flatout refuse the connection 20:59:20 <TrueBrain> that should be hint enough 21:00:13 *** Etua has quit IRC 21:12:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #64: Fix: crash with invalid version for a branch with CLIENT_INFO_LIST https://git.io/J6btQ 21:14:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #64: Fix: crash with invalid version for a branch with CLIENT_INFO_LIST https://git.io/J6btQ 21:15:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.4 https://git.io/J6bmb 21:16:51 <TrueBrain> lol, I could also have send over a dummy entry to say: YOU MADE A PROTOCOL BOOBOO 21:16:54 <TrueBrain> but that is just asking for trouble :D 21:20:10 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:22:35 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:28:51 <TrueBrain> https://openttd.grafana.net/dashboard/snapshot/qCrMYmHZAvevtiz417esX7N34h5vndD5 <- for those that are curious how the last few days went 21:30:29 <glx> hug difference between before and after 17th ;) 21:31:58 <TrueBrain> ;) 21:32:07 <TrueBrain> wow, 18 clients on a single server .. TG is doing well 21:33:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain opened pull request #39: Change: prioritize servers without password over ones with in server listing https://git.io/J6bBr 21:35:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #39: Change: prioritize servers without password over ones with in server listing https://git.io/J6bBr 21:35:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.2 https://git.io/J6b0g 21:39:28 <TrueBrain> https://servers.openttd.org/listing <- that looks a lot more friendly now 21:40:27 <TrueBrain> funny enough is the amount of servers not going up .. I kinda expected it would 21:40:36 <TrueBrain> but it is still ~300 21:41:26 <LordAro> maybe they're learning to make them invite only 21:41:46 <TrueBrain> no, scroll a bit down, they really aren't :P 21:42:05 <LordAro> :p 21:42:37 <TrueBrain> but it seems for every public non-dedicated server we got, we also lost a public dedicated server or something :D 21:42:45 <TrueBrain> dunno .. seems pretty much in balance :) 21:42:58 <LordAro> purely going on server registrations on the grafana, there's about 1000 servers? 21:43:05 <LordAro> i suppose many of those won't be unique 21:43:12 <TrueBrain> server registrations 21:43:26 <TrueBrain> I don't track how many are unique .. mainly as that is a difficult statistic to track :D 21:43:32 <LordAro> quite 21:43:41 <TrueBrain> (I now just do an INCR to "server registration" upon registration :P) 21:43:45 <LordAro> source IP might be "enough" 21:43:53 <TrueBrain> requires tracking that somewhere :) 21:43:56 <LordAro> true 21:45:13 <TrueBrain> and the resolution is in days, so that is not helping either :P 21:45:13 <TrueBrain> I did my best to keep the stats truly anonymous :) 21:47:49 <TrueBrain> guess I could add stats like "invite-only" vs "public", and how long a server was online .. so we get a feel for how people use it 21:53:02 <TrueBrain> hmm .. seems not everyone can connect to a public IPv6 .. we can connect to it, but the client fails, despite it having IPv6 21:53:02 <TrueBrain> good thing we fall back to STUN for those connections too :) 21:53:02 <TrueBrain> but today alone 90 direct IPv6 which should have been possible failed .. out of the ~3000 connections, so it is a very small portion, but still .. 21:53:02 <TrueBrain> similar, 23 IPv4 direct connects failed, which is odd too .. the Internet is weird :P 21:54:49 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: maybe a lot of people were running a dedicated server just for them and their friends, because port forwarding is a hassle? 21:55:00 <glx> at least with STUN they still connect directly, just with an extra step 21:55:05 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: possible 21:55:10 <TrueBrain> glx: yup 21:55:34 <FLHerne> I mean, in practice all but the top 10 or so public servers *must* be "me and my friends" 21:55:52 <TrueBrain> or empty :P 21:55:55 <FLHerne> because they're about 0-1 players most of the time, and there's no reason a random person would pick that one 21:56:11 <TrueBrain> just funny to see that it found some balance 21:56:16 <FLHerne> so no-one would bother hosting it if they didn't want their own 21:56:22 <TrueBrain> or there is something else going on, but I do not think so 21:57:05 <TrueBrain> in the spike of the release, we had 1000 unique visitors per hour on our frontpage 21:57:13 <TrueBrain> normally this is like 150 21:57:48 <TrueBrain> wiki went from normal 500 to over 2000 unique visitors :) 21:58:32 <TrueBrain> <25% of the requests goes to our backend; the rest is served by Cloudflare; that is nice :) 21:58:48 <glx> mostly signal page ? 21:58:53 <TrueBrain> sadly, that is still 50% of the bandwidth :P 21:59:25 <TrueBrain> no, the flags are the most requested :P 21:59:51 <TrueBrain> but yeah, /en/ is called 6000 times of the last 24h, signals page 150 times 21:59:59 <TrueBrain> next up is Planes tutorial 22:00:23 <glx> funny 22:00:29 <TrueBrain> Tutorial pages in general are visited pretty frequent 22:00:41 <glx> planes is the most simple transport solution 22:00:44 <TrueBrain> Signals, NewGRF, Buses, Trains 22:00:46 <TrueBrain> they all show up 22:01:08 <TrueBrain> okay, this is surprising ... US is #1 in requests to wiki 22:01:11 <TrueBrain> fine, that is no surprise 22:01:13 <TrueBrain> but number 2 .. 22:01:15 <TrueBrain> is Singapore 22:01:28 <TrueBrain> Germany, France, UK, Russia, Canada are next 22:02:27 <TrueBrain> last 7 days our wiki + www pushed 50GB of data .. of which 40GB was done by Cloudflare 22:02:28 <TrueBrain> that is a huge money-saver :) 22:02:38 <TrueBrain> @calc 40 * 0.09 22:02:38 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 3.5999999999999996 22:02:50 <TrueBrain> 3.6 dollar, for free! :P 22:03:16 <LordAro> lovely 22:03:16 <glx> almost 2L of car fuel 22:03:28 <TrueBrain> haha, you had to go there didn't you glx :P 22:03:43 <glx> not yet 22:04:05 <TrueBrain> now if Cloudflare R2 drops .. we can move our CDN to there 22:04:09 <TrueBrain> now that will cut our bill even further :D 22:05:01 <TrueBrain> also means it can serve BaNaNaS files .. that would be a lot quicker for a lot of people :D 22:05:03 <TrueBrain> anyway, sleepy time 22:05:50 <LordAro> is speed of download an issue? 22:07:49 <TrueBrain> Always! Faster faster fassstttteeeeerrrrr 22:09:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games https://git.io/J66uT 22:10:17 <dP> server popularity is very random, they all become nearly empty at (european) night and then 1-2 players join and it snowballs from there 22:10:37 <dP> with just a few exceptions for very popular servers like reddit that always have some regular players online 22:18:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:34:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals https://git.io/J6Nqy 23:22:29 *** tokai has joined #openttd 23:22:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 23:29:21 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 23:33:08 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:38:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 23:39:44 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:58:33 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd