Log for #openttd on 20th October 2021:
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02:42:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 opened issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
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03:27:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
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05:04:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 opened issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
05:12:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9629: Fix #9626, ddafc0d: Incorrect loading of script saved data
05:41:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames
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10:23:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9629: Fix #9626, ddafc0d: Incorrect loading of script saved data
10:23:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9626: [Bug]: Some gamescripts appear to be broken after loading 1.11.2 saves
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12:07:09  <andythenorth> yo
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12:18:00  <dP> hm, so far 4 people asked in server chat how to start a new company and only one how to enable block signals
12:18:09  <dP> coz
12:18:11  <dP> xDD
12:18:54  <glx> so they immediately closed the client window after joining ?
12:19:17  <dP> idk, but even if they didn't it's not that clear
12:20:29  <dP> usually goes like this:
12:21:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
12:38:22  <glx> so #9622 and #9630 are almost duplicates, and I still can't reproduce any
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12:51:10  <dP> hm, I was trying to repro some crash I had but found another issue
12:51:23  <dP> fullscreen doesn't seem to resize correcly on second monitor
12:52:18  <dP>
12:52:30  <dP> not sure if that's some gnome issue or openttd
12:53:58  <dP> window title is rendered but not functional...
12:55:03  <glx> window title is handled by the system usually
12:56:50  <dP> well, it may be caused by openttd as it seems to have ehm... "canvas" size more that screen size in fullscreen
12:57:28  <dP> it seems to resize to primary monitor dimensions
12:57:46  <dP> despite being fullscreened on the secondary one
12:58:05  <glx> would not be surprising
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13:03:14  <glx> dP: related to #9531 maybe
13:05:34  <dP> yeah, maybe
13:06:04  <dP> doesn't crash for me but I'm not plugging in monitors either
13:08:19  <LordAro> dP: i get that occasionally (resizes incorrectly) with i3
13:08:25  <LordAro> i've always assumed it was i3 related
13:13:13  <dP> lol, somehow after a bunch of fullscreening and resizing I ended up with 32767 wide window xD
13:33:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened issue #9632: [Crash]: Clicking any building buttons in the top menu crashes if game window hight is too small
13:34:24  <dP> not quite what I was looking for but I guess it's something...
13:43:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #9632: [Crash]: Clicking any building buttons in the top menu crashes the game if window hight is too small
13:55:25  <glx> likely duplicate of #8869 ;)
13:58:12  <LordAro> probably not quite a duplicate, but some sort of thing
13:59:21  <glx> same effect, too small window is prone to invert min and max
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14:12:52  <dP> well, known crashes are better than unknown crashes :p
14:13:49  <dP> also for some reason window sometimes resizes to min height when exiting fullscreen
14:13:56  <dP> so I'm not just nitpicking
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14:33:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] iTKerry commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
14:45:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8966: Feature: News/advice setting to warn if no depot order in vehicle schedule
14:49:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8966: Feature: News/advice setting to warn if no depot order in vehicle schedule
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14:56:32  <dP> wasn't there pr for #9631 already, what happened to it?
15:02:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
15:05:57  <dP> oh, guess it was never pr'ed huh
15:05:58  <dP>
15:09:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
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15:16:25  <glx> yeah I got the crash
15:16:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
15:18:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
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15:24:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
15:30:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ravage666 commented on issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
15:34:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] same-f commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
15:42:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9622: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup[Crash]:
15:43:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes wonder what statistics people have to determine what "most people" want or need
15:43:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LEB0VSKI commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
15:43:58  <glx> noisy thread
15:44:16  <Rubidium> egotistics?
15:44:29  <glx> ok I think I fixed the crash
15:45:33  <Rubidium> although asking in your social media bubble might yield similar results
15:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably true
15:47:21  <LordAro> why doesn't the train go into the depot there anyway?
15:47:35  <LordAro> path signal should route it into the right-hand depot, no?
15:47:48  <LordAro> oh, it'll be routed specifically to the left one
15:47:50  <LordAro> probably
15:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: probably last wagon still reserves the exit track, and entering train doesn't have a penalty for that, so chooses the blocked depot
15:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so we need a penalty for "crossing track has a reservation"
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15:54:01  <dP> why would double depots suddenly stop working?
15:54:11  <dP> for all we know it can have orders to go to the bottom one
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15:54:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #9633: Fix #9630, #9622: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings
15:55:29  <LordAro> aha
15:57:15  <glx> I though we fixed commit checker
16:04:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
16:11:20  <LordAro> going all in on the controversial changes, i see
16:13:16  <dP> oh god, I found their social bubble but starting to regret it already %)
16:14:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
16:15:30  <LordAro> dP: rau117 & friends?
16:15:38  <dP> yup
16:15:47  <LordAro> oh dear
16:20:27  <LordAro> glx: nope.
16:21:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LEB0VSKI commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
16:23:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
16:35:11  <dP> it's actually kinda sad, at some point someone was reviewing the changelog while massively misunderstanding most of the changes he highlighted
16:35:31  <dP> including #9280 that was basically made by another cooper
16:37:46  <LordAro> well, we dealt with the same last time round with all the mapgen changes
16:38:00  <LordAro> sorry, "mapgen", "changes"
16:38:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #9633: Fix #9630, #9622: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings
16:39:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
16:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> <dP> why would double depots suddenly stop working? <-- they didn't stop working. but they only work while at least one wagon is still inside the depot. there's this blind spot for half a tile, when the last wagon already exited
16:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> at least that's what i interpret into the picture. didn't actually test it myself
16:41:52  <dP> I think there is something else going on that picture
16:42:15  <dP> at least that's the first time I hear about blind spot
16:42:32  <dP> not that I play with breakdowns that much
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16:43:49  <dP> actually, that looks like an optional double depot, that is expected to not work
16:43:59  <dP> as it picks depot when it decides to service
16:44:08  <dP> double depots only work if forced iirc
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16:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> could be that, too
16:45:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
16:45:38  <TrueBrain> okay ... TURN is about 1 GB per day
16:45:43  <TrueBrain> which is ~9 dollarcent per day
16:45:46  <TrueBrain> that is far less than I expected
16:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> do we bother commenting on people using a phone to get a "screenshot"?
16:46:38  <dwfreed> kids these days don't know what Print Screen does
16:46:47  <dwfreed> or even where it is on the keyboard
16:46:54  <TrueBrain> wait, you can make an image of this digital device without another digital device? Tssk
16:47:05  <dwfreed> fucking magic
16:47:18  <glx> I just use windows+shift+S
16:47:26  <LordAro> ^
16:47:43  <dwfreed> I have never actually used the snipping tool
16:48:16  <LordAro> it stopped being snipping tool some versions ago :p
16:48:19  <LordAro> snip & sketch now
16:48:29  <LordAro> and win+shift+s skips all the interface anyway
16:48:30  <TrueBrain> I still use snipping tool
16:49:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
16:50:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
16:50:46  <TrueBrain> Lol @ LordAro  .. I was about to reply I do not like it :P
16:50:49  <TrueBrain> what makes "100" special
16:50:55  <TrueBrain> it is such a weird special case :P
16:50:55  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:52:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
16:53:21  <TrueBrain> in my opinion, the only way to get out of this "I want my maps to be generated XXX" is to let go of climates completely
16:54:21  <TrueBrain> just bring power to the end-user, and be done with it once and for all :P
16:54:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
16:56:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
17:32:45  <TrueBrain> <- I might have gone insane :P
17:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and you realize that only just now? :p
17:38:25  <TrueBrain> on Discord I was wondering what would happen if we build new games in layers, that are put on top of each other .. heightmap .. climate .. towns .. bit like how they are currently generated
17:38:31  <TrueBrain> but allow configuring each layer as their own
17:38:34  <TrueBrain> (advanced users only, ofc)
17:39:01  <TrueBrain> to remove a lot of the complexity that is now called our settings
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17:39:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
17:44:31  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that's the rimworld gui... it's awful
17:45:56  <TrueBrain> never played Rimworld
17:46:09  <glx> only saw it in streams
17:46:15  <dP> aren't they already kind of layered? or do you mean just in the GUI?
17:46:20  <glx> buttons every where :)
17:46:23  <TrueBrain> better reflection of what I mean
17:46:45  <dP> because logically they may be relatively separate atm but more advanced generators may need more complex relations between layers
17:47:13  <dP> for example, realistic generator I'm working on generates river network first and uses that to generate terrain
17:47:45  <TrueBrain> one section can lock the other
17:47:55  <TrueBrain> but a GUI system like this would exactly allow these kind of custom generators
17:49:59  <TrueBrain> basically it is about bringing the settings close to what it configures, instead of global settings that might do what you expect .. but possibly don't :P
17:50:58  <dP> yeah, that sounds logical
17:51:09  <dP> also different generators will need their own sets of settings
17:51:15  <TrueBrain> would also allow Squirrel-generators :P :P
17:51:22  <dP> oh god
17:52:05  <frosch123> TrueBrain:
17:52:14  <frosch123> on the right is a scrollable list of setting and starting conditions
17:52:29  <frosch123> you add stuff via a dropdown at the button on the left
17:52:34  <dP> considering the most time-consuming part of my generator atm is done by fftw3 and it's still relatively slow I heavily doubt usefulness of squirrel there :p
17:52:34  <TrueBrain> that is fully on the other side of the spectrum, lol
17:53:11  <TrueBrain> I was going for a simplification
17:53:21  <TrueBrain> not a .. write a JSON blob in a GUI-like fashion :)
17:53:52  <glx> frosch123: and that's just the scenario settings, many ingame windows are as complex
17:54:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: sometimes people use groupboxes with a checkbox in the title to disable the groupbox / use defaults
17:54:40  <TrueBrain> something like that
17:54:51  <TrueBrain> just something where you define settings per layer
17:55:00  <TrueBrain> so you can say: run river from 0 to 255
17:55:06  <frosch123> glx: the issue with rimworld is, vanilla is unplayable, you have to add two dozen of mods to make it interesting, that's why you get the gui clutter
17:55:11  <TrueBrain> and not make it depend on snow, desert, ...
17:56:13  <TrueBrain> I am just so done with the endless amount of exceptions on exceptions we have .. the code is unreadable, and people keep finding "but I want this niche to be supported" :)
17:57:44  <frosch123> well, what can you do :) grass-tile-graphics, snow and desert are coupled
17:57:52  <frosch123> you cannot have snow and desert on the same map
17:58:03  <frosch123> and you cannot have topic grass with snow
17:58:10  <frosch123> and toyland is even more an exception
17:58:12  <TrueBrain> not saying one option doesn't rule out another option :) That is perfectly fine
17:58:24  <TrueBrain> (as long as it is clear why, ofc)
18:03:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #9633: Fix #9630: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings
18:03:33  <TrueBrain> I wish it was quicker to develop with our UI, just to try out some things :D
18:10:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
18:10:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler closed pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
18:10:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
18:11:03  <frosch123> aw, 2 seconds too late :p
18:11:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
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18:13:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9634: Change: Don't use special map gen for tropic
18:13:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames
18:13:53  <TrueBrain> I had to launch 1.11 to be absolutely sure it didn't remember signal types
18:13:54  <TrueBrain> it really doesn't :)
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18:16:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9612: Add: Draw rotor in cursor when dragging helicopters.
18:16:23  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there was a setting for default signal
18:16:29  <TrueBrain> yes
18:16:31  <TrueBrain> I wrote that :)
18:16:47  <TrueBrain> but he claims it remembered his last signal type used
18:16:50  <TrueBrain> that is simply not the case :P
18:17:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
18:17:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler closed pull request #9635: Change: Rivers may start in desert when no rainforest exists
18:17:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #9636: [Bug]: You can load a game script in the intro game.
18:18:12  <TrueBrain> eeuuhhh @ james ..
18:18:14  <TrueBrain> do we want to support that?
18:18:16  <TrueBrain> like, at all :P
18:19:28  <dP> TrueBrain, I think he's fine with either setting. Remembering last used will just allow that setting to be more hidden.
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18:20:11  <TrueBrain> I really have no opinion on it, I have to admit
18:20:46  <frosch123> TrueBrain: james uses negations correctly :) new-game settings should not affect the titlegame
18:20:56  <frosch123> but "saving the titlegame via console" is already pretty weird
18:21:33  <TrueBrain> owh, oaky, I totally misread what he wrote
18:21:33  <frosch123> it's actually funny... how often did we tell people to copy/rename opntitle.dat to look at the titlegame
18:21:37  <TrueBrain> as what he does is even worse :P
18:21:38  <TrueBrain> lol
18:21:39  <frosch123> when you can actually save it via console
18:22:16  <TrueBrain> opening the console in the main menu
18:22:17  <TrueBrain> tssk
18:22:21  <TrueBrain> why did we allow that? :P
18:23:00  <frosch123> to download all bananas content :p
18:23:46  <frosch123> i know i used console in main menu several times, though cannot give an example now
18:25:00  <TrueBrain> I do wonder if that means the GS is loaded during the intro game
18:25:03  <TrueBrain> that would be weird
18:42:02  <dP> STR_RAIL_TOOLBAR_TOOLTIP_BUILD_RAILROAD_SIGNALS                 :{BLACK}Build railway signals. Ctrl toggles semaphore/light signals
18:42:10  <dP> how does ctrl toggle semaphores?
18:42:30  <frosch123> hold it while building the signal
18:42:52  <frosch123> i.e. build signal by ctrl+click on tile without signal
18:43:01  <frosch123> and without dragging
18:43:02  <dP> oh, so only for a single signal
18:43:15  <frosch123> well, you can drag later
18:43:41  <frosch123> actually, i guess you can also drag while building, just the starttile cannot have a signal
18:44:02  <dP> huh?
18:44:08  <dP> ctrl-drag is autofill
18:44:23  <frosch123> only when there is already signal on the tile
18:44:30  <dP> it seems it only build signal if you drag too little and don't leave the tile
18:44:53  <frosch123> there is a difference between "drag signal starting on tile without signal" and "drag signal starting on tile with signal"
18:46:06  <frosch123> but i guess that is what you get when early on people think semaphores are important, and later you find autofill is a way better feature :p
18:46:50  <dP> both do autofill with ctrl, difference is only what signal it picks
18:46:55  <dP> neither does semaphores
18:47:06  <dP> well, unless semaphore is on the tile ofc
18:47:59  <dP> anyway, I got it I guess
18:48:05  <dP> not gonna touch this shit xD
18:49:03  <frosch123> hmm, i guess the current behavior is unintentional
18:49:11  <frosch123> but i guess noone cares about semaphores :p
18:49:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:49:41  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:50:21  <dP> I only care about semparhores when I accidentally misclick to build one
18:50:36  <dP> actually, I guess that ctrl is the cause
18:50:37  <frosch123> hmm, since when can you no longer drag convert-signal type?
18:50:50  <dP> since if I drag too little it builds semaphore
18:51:13  <dP> just never remembered to investigate that
19:08:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals
19:09:23  <TrueBrain> <- cheesy solution
19:09:27  <frosch123> just merge the ctrl-lock button from the android port :p
19:09:31  <TrueBrain> but something like that as "advanced" button on terrain generation?
19:09:57  <TrueBrain> (missing tons of settings etc, but you get the idea)
19:10:32  <frosch123> i always wanted to add a "more mapgen settings" button to mapgen window, that show the settings window with some filter
19:10:42  <frosch123> i..e no new window, just a mapgen-specific filter for the tree
19:10:59  <TrueBrain> this is the settings-window, only modified to make more sense for mapgen :P
19:11:08  <TrueBrain> and a bunch of "hidden" settings
19:11:25  <glx> it should be possible to add a setting flag for that
19:11:44  <TrueBrain> so moving that to a single tree inside the settings is easy
19:11:45  <glx> we already have some no_save, no_network
19:12:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you mean to add "manual primary industry construction method"?
19:12:19  <TrueBrain> I just blindly added every setting in world_settings.ini
19:12:27  <TrueBrain> I just wanted to give an impression :)
19:12:42  <frosch123> why is that setting in world_Settings :p
19:12:55  <TrueBrain> do you really want to go in the mess we call settings?
19:13:11  <TrueBrain> town_layout turns out to be under economy
19:13:18  <TrueBrain> feels a bit odd too :)
19:13:45  <glx> maybe there was a logical explanation at that time
19:14:09  <TrueBrain> but an "advanced" window like this allows people like 2TallTyler to go nuts with extra settings to add, as far as I care :P
19:14:13  <frosch123> maybe i misunderstand the meaning of "world_settings"
19:14:29  <TrueBrain> if we can agree we all misunderstand the meaning, it is fine
19:15:14  <TrueBrain> but again, I was not showing the screenshot to look at the details of it :P
19:15:55  <frosch123> +1 to showing advanced mapgen settings in the tree window
19:15:58  <TrueBrain> but to tick you off more, added random ones I found too: :)
19:16:10  <frosch123> but i would not define a new tree
19:16:33  <frosch123> keep a signle global settings tree, just filter it differently
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19:16:33  <TrueBrain> the current setting-groups are just a bit weird for mapgen
19:16:47  <glx> only for mapgen ?
19:16:49  <TrueBrain> but maybe we should just clean that up instead
19:17:01  <frosch123> having settings in different positions does not help :)
19:17:14  <TrueBrain> no, we need 1 settings window
19:17:18  <TrueBrain> and filter for mapgen, on that I agree :D
19:17:28  <frosch123> if they do not fit, move them, but don't have different trees in the same game :p
19:17:40  <TrueBrain> I never even suggested that :P
19:17:47  <TrueBrain> my suggestion is to make a parent node "Map generation"
19:17:50  <TrueBrain> and put these categories under that
19:17:55  <TrueBrain> similar to interface etc
19:18:16  <frosch123> i don't think that works well
19:18:26  <TrueBrain> personally I find it very difficult to understand what settings are mapgen only
19:18:37  <TrueBrain> I can spot it because they are disabled, sometimes
19:19:20  <frosch123> i would expect the "type" dropdown to have a 4th value "set before map generation" or so
19:19:56  <TrueBrain> that is basically making a parent node ;)
19:20:00  <TrueBrain> just hidden in a dropdown :D
19:20:10  <frosch123> currently there is a "world generation" node, but i would rather move all those settings to other nodes
19:20:32  <glx> would be nice to have a filter for client only settings
19:20:32  <frosch123> "road vehicle driving side" just makes no sense as "mapgen setting"
19:20:39  <frosch123> but it is a "set at game start" setting
19:20:51  <TrueBrain> so "New game settings"
19:20:59  <frosch123> glx: there is already
19:21:24  <TrueBrain> but sometimes you can change things in-game which I did not expect
19:21:28  <TrueBrain> like road layout for new towns
19:21:35  <frosch123> maybe the window would be easier to use, if the "type" selection was no dropdown, but radiobuttons
19:21:40  <TrueBrain> I am sure there is some niche market for that, but .. shouldn't we just make it "new game only"?
19:22:03  <frosch123> you can found new towns in-game
19:22:11  <TrueBrain> yes, as I said: niche market :P
19:22:14  <frosch123> i can't remeber whether you can select the road layout for them
19:22:22  <LordAro> you cannot
19:22:39  <frosch123> anyway, what is the point of restricting settings to read-only?
19:22:57  <TrueBrain> because it is now often confusing
19:23:05  <frosch123> it only annoys people who would want to change them
19:23:08  <frosch123> why is it confusing?
19:23:14  <dP> wut? you can select layout when funding
19:23:35  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I have a hard time understand what settings influence what .. it is all so multidimensional
19:23:39  <TrueBrain> like we couldn't make up our mind
19:24:00  <dP> also dunno about town but industry density is quite confusing
19:24:02  <TrueBrain> but good filters also help .. current filters don't allow that :)
19:24:36  <dP> I remember posting link to LugnutsK video where he looked at it and thought it's mapgen only when it did exactly what he was looking for
19:25:21  <TrueBrain> well, industry density is another nice one
19:25:23  <glx> with good filters we could add a button in company window to get company settings
19:25:35  <TrueBrain> glx: that is a filter that already exists :P
19:25:50  <TrueBrain> ironically it doesn't open the only root left in the tree
19:25:52  <frosch123> but the button doesn't :p
19:26:42  <TrueBrain> lol, you can even change the side things drive on in-game?
19:26:58  <TrueBrain> again, I am sure there is a niche market for that, but .... why? :)
19:27:10  <dP> also half of "company" settings are not company settings :p
19:27:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, you can only change as long as there are no road vehicles
19:27:36  <TrueBrain> "Automatically pause when starting a new game" I can change in-game ..
19:28:08  <glx> the only time I changed driving side was when testing my cargo dist arrows
19:28:25  <frosch123> ah yes, we should rename "company" node to something else
19:28:34  <frosch123> people keep thinking they are company settings
19:28:50  <dP> imo better split into company and smth, like client/gui
19:28:55  <TrueBrain> some are, some aren't :P
19:29:18  <TrueBrain> ironically, the "type" filter seems to do the right thing there
19:29:19  <frosch123> company settings is a "type" again, no node
19:29:43  <frosch123> the node "company" is "construction / company administration"
19:29:48  <TrueBrain> so "company" and "client" types make sense .. "game" I don't really understand
19:30:43  <glx> game mixes current running game and new game
19:30:44  <frosch123> "game" settings are the same for all players in a game
19:30:54  <frosch123> "company" settings are the same for all players in a company
19:31:02  <frosch123> "client" settings are different for everyone
19:31:14  <TrueBrain> okay .. I get where it comes from, but that was not clear to me :)
19:31:23  <TrueBrain> (and I can only postulate if that is the case, more people have similar issues :D)
19:31:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there is a description at the bottom
19:31:46  <frosch123> actually, also in the dropdown in (...)
19:31:47  <TrueBrain> which bottom?
19:32:06  <frosch123> when you select a setting, the panel at the bottom also shows the "setting type"
19:32:08  <frosch123> and what that means
19:32:15  <frosch123> it's the same text as in the dropdown
19:32:29  <TrueBrain>
19:32:33  <TrueBrain> still not helping me :P
19:32:40  <TrueBrain> your explanation is a lot more clear :)
19:33:00  <frosch123> the texts are different if you open in-game or in intro, i think
19:33:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals
19:33:17  <TrueBrain> same text
19:33:40  <frosch123> no, it's "affects only current game" vs "affect only new games"
19:33:52  <TrueBrain> .... right :P
19:34:02  <TrueBrain> still doesn't really explains to me the way you just worded it :)
19:34:13  <TrueBrain> but we can work on that :)
19:34:14  <frosch123> i only explained one axis of the matrix
19:34:53  <frosch123> the other axis is "changing affects current/new game", "changing effects all games"
19:35:00  <frosch123> and don't start with currency :p
19:35:14  <TrueBrain> yeah, but the important axis really isn't all that clear
19:35:20  <glx> the annoying part is when you change a setting in a running game, and forget to do it globally before starting a new game :)
19:35:52  <TrueBrain> hmm .. so the idea is to add "New game" to that, right?
19:35:59  <TrueBrain> as that means in-game those are all read-only, right?
19:36:18  <TrueBrain> New game, Current game, Company, Client, basically?
19:36:22  <frosch123> no, stuff like "industry density" are both :p
19:36:49  <frosch123> "set on new game", but also "changeable in-game"
19:37:04  <TrueBrain> I hope you understand that this is complex for players :P
19:37:34  <frosch123> i don't think so
19:37:39  <TrueBrain> I wonder what happens if we make them checkboxes instead of a dropdown, so you can multiselect
19:37:42  <glx> and we removed many settings from the gui ;)
19:37:51  <frosch123> i think a player does "i want to change X, search X, change it"
19:37:52  <TrueBrain> as in-game, the "new game" settings are not that interesting I guess
19:38:05  <frosch123> while you think "player studies settings tree, and wants to know everything"
19:38:19  <TrueBrain> frosch123: with the signal stuff we found out that the "search X" doesn't happen often .. they tend to navigate :P
19:38:42  <TrueBrain> for new-game, I fully assume people walk the tree
19:38:42  <glx> I remember searching "select goods" to find out it was removed from the gui
19:38:51  <frosch123> we need phone-home technology for such claims :p
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19:39:27  <frosch123> glx: searching for settings by their ttdp name is even worse :p
19:39:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: both ways, yes ;)
19:39:42  <frosch123> "select goods" and "autoslope" are just wtf
19:40:04  <TrueBrain> but okay, to just put this to rest for a bit .. splitting up world generation in topics like me screenshot, any issue with that?
19:40:18  <TrueBrain> (so "Terrain generation", "Water / River", ..)
19:40:54  <frosch123> TrueBrain: when i made my mockup, i made sure that you can set settings from top to bottom
19:41:15  <TrueBrain> like my screenshot?
19:41:17  <frosch123> i.e. settings at the top may restrict options for settings below them
19:41:21  <frosch123> but not the other way around
19:41:54  <TrueBrain> I love it when people point to a mockup I cannot see :D :D
19:42:00  <frosch123> "climate" and "land generator" are such settings, which disable other settings
19:42:08  <TrueBrain> yup
19:42:27  <frosch123> <- that's like the 10th time i linked it :p
19:42:56  <TrueBrain> sorry, my mind-reading-machine broke
19:43:02  <TrueBrain> I do apologize :P
19:43:27  <frosch123> oh, right, the other thing was to group the "generate map"/"load heightmap"/"flat map" into a groupbox
19:43:35  <frosch123> instead of reshuffling everything
19:44:15  <TrueBrain> but ... we were talking about the setting window ;)
19:44:48  <frosch123> sure, but isn't the harder part: what to keep in the main window, before clicking "moar settings"?
19:45:19  <TrueBrain> sometimes this channel is like pinball :)
19:45:24  <TrueBrain> we bounce around a lot :D
19:45:34  <TrueBrain> I was still at: so we want to split World generation
19:45:54  <TrueBrain> next from my screenshot, all the unnamed, are settings that are currently hidden
19:46:27  <frosch123> i can't tell from the name :p
19:46:28  <TrueBrain> if we go for an "advanced" button, do we just want to give the player everything we have?
19:46:32  <TrueBrain> and let them deal with it?
19:46:47  <TrueBrain> yeah, even I don't know what is behind them :D
19:46:59  <frosch123> yes, the goal of the settings tree was to contain everything. the settings that are missing were just difficult to add
19:47:15  <TrueBrain> really? As I read it was pruned
19:47:37  <frosch123> oh, different "hidden" :p
19:48:00  <TrueBrain> we now have multiple definitions of hidden? :o
19:48:06  <TrueBrain> this is such a sinkhole :P
19:48:26  <frosch123> ok, let's say there are "hidden from gui, because deprecated, and players are more likely to break something"
19:48:39  <glx> oh and the setting tree window is "manually" filled
19:48:47  <TrueBrain> so "backwards compatible only, deprecated, DO NOT USE", yeah, I can understand those :)
19:48:48  <frosch123> and there are "missing, because tree does not support the right widget"
19:49:32  <peter1138> Where's the setting to allow stations to fill with cargo without having any service?
19:49:38  <frosch123> "missing" is stuff like "town names" because comboboxes in tree have fixed content (no newgrf town names), same for basesets...
19:49:51  <glx> accessible via the console peter1138
19:49:56  <nielsm> peter1138: "selectcargo" is the name, I think
19:50:02  <TrueBrain> so for example "min_river_length" ?
19:50:18  <TrueBrain> it is just a number, but doesn't have a string
19:50:36  <glx> "list_settings select" should show it
19:50:54  <dP> there is a bunch of pf settigs btw that aren't in the gui
19:50:55  <LordAro> still have to know most of its name
19:51:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: okay, there is a 3rd category: pathfinder settings that are source code constants, but someone made them changeable for debugging/testing?
19:51:06  <LordAro> dP: almost all of which should be removed entirely
19:51:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: we ignore pf, no worries :)
19:51:20  <TrueBrain> that doesn't exist as far as I care :P
19:51:23  <frosch123> min_river_lengths is like yapf.pbs_penatly to me :p
19:51:26  <dP> LordAro, dunno about that
19:51:35  <dP> guess they can be compile constants
19:51:48  <TrueBrain> frosch123: shouldn't we just remove it from settings in that case?
19:52:11  <glx> most pf settings should have been constants once the code was finalised
19:52:32  <TrueBrain> "river_route_random" is similar, but I would have to check what they do to see what is going on there
19:52:40  <TrueBrain> but okay, we will have to take this setting at the time
19:52:42  <glx> I understand how having settings helps when debugging and fine tuning
19:53:05  <peter1138> glx, PR :)
19:53:10  <dP> glx, there are still rare cases when changing some pf constant is helpful
19:53:11  <glx> but some player tends to mess everything by touching pf settings
19:53:17  <dP> like search limit that saves ppls games
19:53:41  <TrueBrain> we could make a "breaking change" release, where we state: IF YOU MODIFIED PF SETTINGS DO NOT UPGRADE TO THIS VERSION
19:53:41  <TrueBrain> and be done with it once and for all :)
19:53:42  <glx> search limit was mostly affecting ships IIRC
19:54:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grenoult opened pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch
19:54:50  <TrueBrain> ha, that PR actually fixes something I find highly annoying :)
19:54:59  <dP> glx, not if you do mainline with 10 two-way tracks, 90 deg turns and crosses every 10 tiles xD
19:55:13  <dP> also towns can get quite loopy if they grow and connect
19:55:49  <TrueBrain> okay, I will have to play around with the settings a bit to see what works
19:55:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: but adds a setting!
19:56:11  <LordAro> should be a trinary setting like the others too
19:56:14  <LordAro> other than that, good!
19:56:15  <TrueBrain> seems one that is worthy of being added :)
19:57:03  <frosch123> can i derail that PR? why is it a bool setting when "first vehicle at player/competitor staton" are separate settings with full/summary/off? :p
19:57:21  <frosch123> similar for industry production changes
19:57:24  <TrueBrain> go for it
19:57:32  <LordAro> that's what i just said :p
19:57:32  <glx> anyway search limit is rarely the pf setting that breaks everything, messing with penalties/costs on the other hand
19:58:54  <dP> what's the problem with config-only settings though? sure, people change them haphazardly sometimes but it doesn't happen that often
19:59:08  <TrueBrain> okay, so basically if we add the category to the .ini files, and autogenerate the categories, we can mark settings as DEPRECATED, and not have an argument about them over and over :D
19:59:16  <dP> but at least that allows ppl who know what they're doing to fine-tune stuff, especially in mp
19:59:39  <TrueBrain> also makes it easier not to forget to add settings to the GUI :P
19:59:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch
20:00:07  <TrueBrain> wait, "tuning" pf settings in mp?
20:00:13  <TrueBrain> that sounds like a recipe for disaster :D
20:00:15  <glx> TrueBrain: would be a good starting point
20:00:18  <dP> TrueBrain, twoway_eol ;)
20:00:29  <TrueBrain> when we say "pf", we talk about penalties
20:00:30  <TrueBrain> at least, I am
20:00:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: let's say, there were people in irc multiple times, who were super annoying about the pf not understanding their broken track layouts, and we could get rid of them by making them mess with pf settings
20:00:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9638: Disable competitor accident news patch
20:01:07  <frosch123> "just find the right settings, and it will work" :p
20:01:23  <dP> TrueBrain, yeah, penalties would be a more niche case
20:01:24  <TrueBrain> pf.npf and pf.yapf
20:01:32  <TrueBrain> I still think they should die :P Despite those people frosch123  :P
20:01:34  <dP> still, I can imagine ppl testing alternative values together
20:01:54  <TrueBrain> most people I have seen toying with penalties, do not understand what kind of PF the NPF and YAPF are :P
20:02:02  <TrueBrain> and they find "good results" by doing really really stupid shit
20:02:11  <nielsm> also the term "penalty" makes it sound dangerous
20:02:25  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you can also argue that automatic servicing is still broken, because pf settings are weird, and noone uses it anyway :p
20:02:26  <nielsm> like as if a high value makes things bad
20:02:30  <TrueBrain> yeah .. A* normally talks about f/g/h values :)
20:02:47  <TrueBrain> and cost / score :P
20:03:15  <nielsm> seriously, "cost" is the term I've always seen used when talking about shortest path algorithms
20:03:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Laszlo65 commented on issue #9622: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup[Crash]:
20:03:27  <TrueBrain> YAPF has some weird picks for names
20:03:31  <dP> TrueBrain, people who know what they're doing with pf are not that visible ;)
20:03:37  <TrueBrain> also how open/closed list is used is slightly unusual
20:03:54  <TrueBrain> but "it works", so yeah, we have that going for us :D
20:05:13  <TrueBrain> so talking about settings
20:05:19  <TrueBrain> how are basic/advanced/expert picked
20:05:34  <TrueBrain> it feels rather random from a "I totally forgot anything about this game" perspective (read: me :D)
20:05:42  <TrueBrain> is it just "who-ever made the PR" kinda thing?
20:05:42  <frosch123> "basic" is "don't confuse new players with a wall of text"
20:05:54  <frosch123> "advanced" is "regular players should use this"
20:06:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9622: [Crash]: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup
20:06:08  <dP> imo basic/advanced/expert should just be removed
20:06:11  <frosch123> "expert" is "candidates for removal from gui, but fanboys complain"
20:06:25  <frosch123> however, in practice it's too tedious, so everyone selects "expert"
20:06:38  <frosch123> so the intention was nice, but i think it failed :p
20:06:40  <LordAro> dP: i feel like you didn't see the settings window before there was such a divide
20:06:49  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is a fair answer :)
20:06:52  <nielsm> IMO it should be basic="most players would be interested in knowing this can be changed, and the change won't break your game", advanced="generally doesn't need to be changed, but can be useful in specific circumstances", expert="changing these is usually a bad idea"
20:07:09  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
20:07:11  <dP> LordAro, I always have it on expert anyway
20:07:15  <dP> ppl rarely look through settings just to see what they can change
20:07:32  <dP> usually they look for something and those categories are just extra noobtrap
20:08:05  <TrueBrain> mostly what I run into, that I put it on Expert, forget about it, and get no further feedback what settings I shouldn't really be touching
20:08:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9622: [Crash]: OpenTTD 12.0 crashes on startup
20:08:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9633: Fix #9630: intro game could zoom in/out more than allowed by settings
20:08:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9630: [Crash]: Main Menu
20:08:23  *** gelignite has quit IRC
20:08:31  <LordAro> what we want to avoid is the brand new player (i.e. from steam, never seen the game before) looking at the settings window and deciding "too complicated, won't play"
20:08:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it resulted in weirness like "select basic, enter search term, get no result, but a message 'consider selecting expert to see more search results'"
20:08:54  <TrueBrain> lol, never saw that :D
20:09:09  <frosch123> new players having "basic" selected, reading about a setting on the internet, search it, find nothing, complain
20:09:15  <frosch123> we had that a lot, then added that hint
20:09:31  <TrueBrain> so okay, we missed the mark there
20:09:34  <TrueBrain> that is fine .. live and learn
20:09:52  <dP> LordAro, somehow I feel most players don't look at settings ever, and brand new ones especially so
20:10:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: just wait till the open the order GUI :D
20:10:05  <dP> there was setting for block signals did that help? :p
20:10:56  <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh right, another reason from the past: the intention was to remove the "game options" window and move everything to the tree
20:11:15  <frosch123> but then defaulting it to "basic", so you can select your language without the wall of settings :p
20:11:20  <TrueBrain> and that is still a good idea :)
20:13:15  <dP> btw, it may be a good idea to replicate settings ui of browsers
20:13:22  <dP> or smth like android
20:13:36  <dP> it has some categories but is mostly centered around search
20:13:38  <TrueBrain> damn, "basic" still has a shitton of settings :D
20:14:09  <TrueBrain> FF limit .. guess that shouldn't be basic :D
20:14:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9627: Change: Don't store not to be activated newGRFs in savegames
20:14:34  <TrueBrain> inflation .. yeah, "expert" doesn't cover it
20:14:39  <dP> also browsers have semi-hidden settings lists where you can change anything
20:15:23  <TrueBrain> max-numbers-of-blabla .. basic?
20:16:00  <TrueBrain> what would happen if we make "type" like tabs?
20:16:18  <TrueBrain> also allows to add stuff like "Video" and "Audio" what people are used to from other games? Dunno if that is a good idea
20:16:25  <TrueBrain> also allows "NewGRF", "AI", ..
20:16:44  <TrueBrain> so basically radiobuttons frosch123 mentioned earlier, just more tab-like :D
20:17:46  <frosch123> well, in ottd-gui style it's mostly the same
20:18:01  <frosch123> but there is some overlap
20:18:14  <frosch123> "all" can be a separate button, or you could click multiple
20:18:24  <TrueBrain> or we can just drop "all"?
20:18:31  <frosch123> if you add "set at mapgen" then there is overlap between categories
20:18:34  <TrueBrain> and make "search" its own tab?
20:18:36  <TrueBrain> dunno
20:18:46  <TrueBrain> yeah, overlap is fine in my mind :P
20:19:24  <frosch123> "all" is very useful for the categories "settings with different value..."
20:19:37  <TrueBrain> true
20:19:39  <frosch123> though i guess it also works to click the tabs sequentially
20:20:01  <TrueBrain> this just requires experimentation :)
20:20:16  <TrueBrain> but the first step really would be to move categories inside the .ini file, I guess ..
20:20:30  <TrueBrain> and bitch about settings in general, to figure out which should go where :P
20:20:51  <frosch123> categories are already inside the ini file?
20:20:58  <frosch123> or do you mean the tree structure?
20:20:59  <TrueBrain> euhg
20:21:00  <TrueBrain> yupe
20:21:02  <TrueBrain> type
20:21:05  <TrueBrain> euh
20:21:06  <TrueBrain> no
20:21:07  <TrueBrain> ugh
20:21:11  <TrueBrain> sorry, we have too many categories
20:21:15  <TrueBrain> I mean the tree structure yes
20:21:23  <TrueBrain> "page" it is called in the code
20:21:26  <TrueBrain> to just add to the confusion
20:21:46  <frosch123> the problem is the order
20:21:55  <TrueBrain> order of ini-file? :)
20:21:56  <dP> ditch the tree btw, way too complex, absolutely pointless
20:21:59  <TrueBrain> we can now freely move them around :D
20:22:12  <dP> one level of categories
20:22:18  <frosch123> settings in the tree were once sorted to put settings into context
20:22:30  <frosch123> not alphabetically, and not in ini-order
20:22:44  <TrueBrain> but .. can't we make ini-order the same as in-context order? :)
20:22:44  <frosch123> though PRs often just append stuff at the end
20:23:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah right, but that is new in 12.0 :p
20:23:11  <frosch123> you couln'T change the order before
20:23:15  <TrueBrain> :D
20:23:16  <TrueBrain> nope
20:23:19  <TrueBrain> but we have the power now!! :D
20:23:22  <TrueBrain> order is really important
20:23:23  <TrueBrain> so yeah
20:23:27  <frosch123> but there are mutple .ini files now?
20:23:33  <TrueBrain> yes
20:23:43  <frosch123> well, you know better :p
20:23:54  <TrueBrain> I am very tempted to put settings in a file named after the root in the tree
20:23:55  <frosch123> i don't know how free the sorting into .ini files is
20:24:06  <TrueBrain> we are 100% free to reorder it any way we want :P
20:24:15  <TrueBrain> just not between files ;)
20:24:18  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the silly thing is, we have 3 different trees :p
20:24:26  <TrueBrain> exactly what I want to solve :P
20:24:28  <TrueBrain> but 3? I know of 2 ..
20:24:31  <TrueBrain> where is the 3rd hidden?
20:24:45  <frosch123> the gui tree, the [sections] in .cfg, and the
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20:25:03  <TrueBrain> owh, right
20:25:10  <TrueBrain> so yeah ... maybe slap that all in a single structure
20:25:18  <TrueBrain> means I don't search my ass off when searching for anything setting-related
20:25:18  <dP> aren't sections part of the dotted name?
20:25:28  <frosch123> no idea :)
20:25:48  <glx> I think it's section.setting yes
20:25:55  <dP> yep
20:26:04  <TrueBrain> as for the Newgame GUI, for now, I suggest to only add an "Advanced" button there; we can rework the rest of the GUIs at a later stage :)
20:26:17  <glx> except for pf options maybe
20:26:28  <TrueBrain> owh, we can even move settings over sections, as we now have the config-file versionized :D
20:26:31  <frosch123> TrueBrain: maybe you can also move the newgrf/ai/gs settings :p
20:26:41  <frosch123> 3 buttons may look nicer than 1
20:26:50  <frosch123> and newgrf/ai/gs are just wrong in main menu
20:26:54  <TrueBrain> yup
20:27:01  <TrueBrain> but, one thing at the time :P
20:27:06  <glx> ha no works for pf settings too, [pf] section and npf.blah is the setting name
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20:28:36  <TrueBrain> so this is how all these "projects" start .. cleanup some mess first
20:29:40  <dP> law of conservation of mess :p
20:30:05  <glx> many layers of mess added on top of each other
20:30:21  <dP> messception!
20:31:15  <TrueBrain> to come back to "town funding"
20:31:19  <TrueBrain> the answer is: depends on your setting
20:31:25  <TrueBrain> whether you can select town-layout or not
20:31:37  <TrueBrain> so that is a bit silly .. you can either select for all new towns what their town-layout is
20:31:41  <TrueBrain> or you can enable that you can select it per town
20:31:46  <TrueBrain> feels like double-dipping :D
20:32:33  <frosch123> one setting is controlled by server admin, the other by the founding company
20:32:34  <dP> well, pretty sure mp had a hand in that somewhere
20:32:58  <TrueBrain> context-wise they are miles apart btw
20:33:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: sure, but I keep wondering .. does the server-admin change the town-layout every 10 game-years
20:33:54  <TrueBrain> or what is the usecase here? :D
20:33:57  <TrueBrain> "Because we can"?
20:34:46  <dP> admin may want to change that setting mid-game
20:34:57  <dP> maybe not every 10 years but once can be useful
20:35:09  <glx> happens if it was wrong at start
20:35:21  <dP> though I know of gamescripts(-ish) that change settings during the game
20:35:23  <TrueBrain> but than all towns are "wrong"
20:35:25  <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah, you are still on the read-only track :) noone ever checked which settings make sense to change in-game. settings are only readonly, if changing them broke something somewhen
20:35:26  <dP> namely town growth speed
20:35:38  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah, that is good to know :)
20:35:56  <TrueBrain> okay, who is toying with the "version" addition in BaNaNaS ..
20:36:02  <TrueBrain> "1+0" is not an integer! :P
20:37:08  <TrueBrain> at least I found a bug in bananas-server :P
20:38:10  <TrueBrain> what to do in that case
20:38:13  <TrueBrain> it violates protocol
20:38:15  <TrueBrain> hmm
20:38:25  <glx> is it possible for BaNaNaS to check the external AI/GS version (set on submit) is the same as the internal one ?
20:38:50  <frosch123> ai/gs are maximum complicated :p
20:38:50  <TrueBrain> lot of these dep-checks are absolutely possible, especially since 12.0
20:38:55  <TrueBrain> but .. people have to write it :P
20:39:08  <TrueBrain> similar for NewGRF deps etc .. which might be more useful to start with :)
20:39:29  <frosch123> multiple ai/gs (esp. those from zuu) have the version in a vcs-generated file, which is imported into info.nut
20:39:41  <frosch123> so, you need to run a squirrel vm inside bananas to figure out the version
20:39:45  <frosch123> regex not enough :p
20:39:55  <glx> because I had to remove older downloaded AI/GS when downloading newer versions
20:40:27  <TrueBrain> owh, I thought you meant dep-checks
20:40:33  <TrueBrain> well, at least we can do the easy tests
20:40:36  <TrueBrain> as 90% will work
20:40:42  <TrueBrain> indeed, some people are an exception ;)
20:41:19  <TrueBrain> "string  release version (like "12.0")" <- guess we didn't specify each part of that should be an int
20:41:20  <TrueBrain> hmm
20:41:51  <glx> we don't expect int IIRC
20:41:59  <TrueBrain> we sure do
20:42:47  <TrueBrain>  * It should never contain things like "beta", but only the release version we are compatible with.
20:42:56  <TrueBrain> so that kinda covers it .. but yeah ..
20:43:42  <TrueBrain> 0.43.1+0 .. yeah .. sounds like a "git describe" at work :D
20:43:52  <TrueBrain> bad JGR :P
20:46:57  <TrueBrain> let's check what went wrong .. choices :D
20:47:59  <glx> as examples I think there's NotPerfectAI, internally it's version 1 for many packages
20:48:30  <TrueBrain> sorry, I did a context switch back to a bug someone triggered on bnanas-server :D
20:48:46  <TrueBrain> I want Discord threads :P
20:49:17  <TrueBrain> glx: for bananas-api validations, we kinda skipped it as: this takes a bit of effort, lets finish it first :)
20:49:45  <glx> perfectly fine
20:49:48  <TrueBrain> #24 and #25 for example are about similar stuff
20:50:08  <TrueBrain> and yeah, people tend to link the wrong one when uploading, so validation would be lovely :)
20:50:19  <TrueBrain> even if it doesn't work in 100% of the time, but the times it rejects it, should be 100% correct :D
20:51:24  <glx> can enter in #23
20:54:37  <TrueBrain> "0.43.1+1" :D
20:54:46  <TrueBrain> yeah, commits since 0.43.1 tag, seems most logic
20:55:13  <TrueBrain> owh, I also have "0.43.1+2" earlier
20:55:20  <glx> lol
20:55:21  <TrueBrain> in JGRPP I cannot find a reason why this + is there
20:56:15  <TrueBrain> this is the kind of thing ..... difficult to have a proper solution
20:56:21  <TrueBrain> either reject the client, and notify the developer something went wrong
20:56:27  <TrueBrain> or accept it, but degrade the result
20:56:31  <TrueBrain> with the chance it is wrong for years
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20:57:02  <LordAro> git describe with commits on top, no?
20:57:07  <LordAro> probably JGR doing dev work
20:57:11  <glx> ?
20:57:16  <TrueBrain> first I get +2, followed by +1, followed by +0 ..
20:57:21  <TrueBrain> bit weird if that was commits on top :P
20:57:34  <LordAro> half way through a rebase? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
20:57:41  <TrueBrain> possible
20:58:00  <TrueBrain> glx: line 179 suggests this shouldn't be happening
20:58:58  <TrueBrain> ah, no, it doesn't
20:58:59  <TrueBrain> there is no $
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20:59:07  <TrueBrain> so it lets that through just fine
20:59:16  <TrueBrain> okay, so I just have to flatout refuse the connection
20:59:20  <TrueBrain> that should be hint enough
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21:12:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #64: Fix: crash with invalid version for a branch with CLIENT_INFO_LIST
21:14:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #64: Fix: crash with invalid version for a branch with CLIENT_INFO_LIST
21:15:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.4
21:16:51  <TrueBrain> lol, I could also have send over a dummy entry to say: YOU MADE A PROTOCOL BOOBOO
21:16:54  <TrueBrain> but that is just asking for trouble :D
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21:28:51  <TrueBrain> <- for those that are curious how the last few days went
21:30:29  <glx> hug difference between before and after 17th ;)
21:31:58  <TrueBrain> ;)
21:32:07  <TrueBrain> wow, 18 clients on a single server .. TG is doing well
21:33:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain opened pull request #39: Change: prioritize servers without password over ones with in server listing
21:35:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #39: Change: prioritize servers without password over ones with in server listing
21:35:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.2
21:39:28  <TrueBrain> <- that looks a lot more friendly now
21:40:27  <TrueBrain> funny enough is the amount of servers not going up .. I kinda expected it would
21:40:36  <TrueBrain> but it is still ~300
21:41:26  <LordAro> maybe they're learning to make them invite only
21:41:46  <TrueBrain> no, scroll a bit down, they really aren't :P
21:42:05  <LordAro> :p
21:42:37  <TrueBrain> but it seems for every public non-dedicated server we got, we also lost a public dedicated server or something :D
21:42:45  <TrueBrain> dunno .. seems pretty much in balance :)
21:42:58  <LordAro> purely going on server registrations on the grafana, there's about 1000  servers?
21:43:05  <LordAro> i suppose many of those won't be unique
21:43:12  <TrueBrain> server registrations
21:43:26  <TrueBrain> I don't track how many are unique .. mainly as that is a difficult statistic to track :D
21:43:32  <LordAro> quite
21:43:41  <TrueBrain> (I now just do an INCR to "server registration" upon registration :P)
21:43:45  <LordAro> source IP might be "enough"
21:43:53  <TrueBrain> requires tracking that somewhere :)
21:43:56  <LordAro> true
21:45:13  <TrueBrain> and the resolution is in days, so that is not helping either :P
21:45:13  <TrueBrain> I did my best to keep the stats truly anonymous :)
21:47:49  <TrueBrain> guess I could add stats like "invite-only" vs "public", and how long a server was online .. so we get a feel for how people use it
21:53:02  <TrueBrain> hmm .. seems not everyone can connect to a public IPv6 .. we can connect to it, but the client fails, despite it having IPv6
21:53:02  <TrueBrain> good thing we fall back to STUN for those connections too :)
21:53:02  <TrueBrain> but today alone 90 direct IPv6 which should have been possible failed .. out of the ~3000 connections, so it is a very small portion, but still ..
21:53:02  <TrueBrain> similar, 23 IPv4 direct connects failed, which is odd too .. the Internet is weird :P
21:54:49  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: maybe a lot of people were running a dedicated server just for them and their friends, because port forwarding is a hassle?
21:55:00  <glx> at least with STUN they still connect directly, just with an extra step
21:55:05  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: possible
21:55:10  <TrueBrain> glx: yup
21:55:34  <FLHerne> I mean, in practice all but the top 10 or so public servers *must* be "me and my friends"
21:55:52  <TrueBrain> or empty :P
21:55:55  <FLHerne> because they're about 0-1 players most of the time, and there's no reason a random person would pick that one
21:56:11  <TrueBrain> just funny to see that it found some balance
21:56:16  <FLHerne> so no-one would bother hosting it if they didn't want their own
21:56:22  <TrueBrain> or there is something else going on, but I do not think so
21:57:05  <TrueBrain> in the spike of the release, we had 1000 unique visitors per hour on our frontpage
21:57:13  <TrueBrain> normally this is like 150
21:57:48  <TrueBrain> wiki went from normal 500 to over 2000 unique visitors :)
21:58:32  <TrueBrain> <25% of the requests goes to our backend; the rest is served by Cloudflare; that is nice :)
21:58:48  <glx> mostly signal page ?
21:58:53  <TrueBrain> sadly, that is still 50% of the bandwidth :P
21:59:25  <TrueBrain> no, the flags are the most requested :P
21:59:51  <TrueBrain> but yeah, /en/ is called 6000 times of the last 24h, signals page 150 times
21:59:59  <TrueBrain> next up is Planes tutorial
22:00:23  <glx> funny
22:00:29  <TrueBrain> Tutorial pages in general are visited pretty frequent
22:00:41  <glx> planes is the most simple transport solution
22:00:44  <TrueBrain> Signals, NewGRF, Buses, Trains
22:00:46  <TrueBrain> they all show up
22:01:08  <TrueBrain> okay, this is surprising ... US is #1 in requests to wiki
22:01:11  <TrueBrain> fine, that is no surprise
22:01:13  <TrueBrain> but number 2 ..
22:01:15  <TrueBrain> is Singapore
22:01:28  <TrueBrain> Germany, France, UK, Russia, Canada are next
22:02:27  <TrueBrain> last 7 days our wiki + www pushed 50GB of data .. of which 40GB was done by Cloudflare
22:02:28  <TrueBrain> that is a huge money-saver :)
22:02:38  <TrueBrain> @calc 40 * 0.09
22:02:38  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 3.5999999999999996
22:02:50  <TrueBrain> 3.6 dollar, for free! :P
22:03:16  <LordAro> lovely
22:03:16  <glx> almost 2L of car fuel
22:03:28  <TrueBrain> haha, you had to go there didn't you glx :P
22:03:43  <glx> not yet
22:04:05  <TrueBrain> now if Cloudflare R2 drops .. we can move our CDN to there
22:04:09  <TrueBrain> now that will cut our bill even further :D
22:05:01  <TrueBrain> also means it can serve BaNaNaS files .. that would be a lot quicker for a lot of people :D
22:05:03  <TrueBrain> anyway, sleepy time
22:05:50  <LordAro> is speed of download an issue?
22:07:49  <TrueBrain> Always! Faster faster fassstttteeeeerrrrr
22:09:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 commented on issue #9631: [Bug]: The previously selected signal is not saved between games
22:10:17  <dP> server popularity is very random, they all become nearly empty at (european) night and then 1-2 players join and it snowballs from there
22:10:37  <dP> with just a few exceptions for very popular servers like reddit that always have some regular players online
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22:34:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9637: Invert the effect of Ctrl press when dragging signals
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