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10:39:36 <dP> LordAro, it's actually kinda tricky as I'm not sure it was "correct" even before the fix 10:39:41 <dP> *before the change 10:41:00 <dP> I even have it fixed in citymania server but for entirely different reason, but the whole logic is somewhat different there 10:41:16 <dP> as it grows towns to the certain amount of houses 10:41:49 <dP> so it knows the final town size and can set the correct radius directly 10:42:15 <dP> but that is probably not a good idea for vanilla as all towns generate exactly the same size 10:42:22 <dP> https://pastebin.com/6brkkkKw 10:43:32 <dP> would be nice to grow what the original algorithm actually was but dunno where to look it up 10:46:18 <dP> I guess simplest solution would be to check for _generating_world as in-game town funding already has a kludge that sets it 10:46:27 <dP> But I don't really want to add to that mess... 10:56:08 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:43:06 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 12:05:20 *** crem1 has quit IRC 12:57:00 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 13:35:53 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:35:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 14:01:38 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 14:18:27 *** crem1 has joined #openttd 14:44:52 <supermop_work> good morning 14:48:38 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:51:42 <FLHerne> good afternoon 15:05:55 <supermop_work> the bug is that the tropic buildings look bad? 15:12:06 <LordAro> supermop_work: yes 15:12:19 <LordAro> or rather, they look like temperate buildings 15:13:01 <supermop_work> its always been unclear to me where tropic is supposed to be 15:13:40 <supermop_work> some things look spanish mission, but the industry set doesn't really look like mexico? 15:15:05 <supermop_work> also i guess what a 'tropical' building looks like is pretty subjective 15:17:18 <supermop_work> should have more brise solei and less big panes of glass? 15:25:56 *** EER has joined #openttd 15:56:06 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 15:56:28 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 15:57:47 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 16:00:37 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 16:03:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:31:00 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:50:13 *** APTX has joined #openttd 17:05:45 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:39:48 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:57:07 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 17:59:22 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 18:20:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #9628: Feature: Wide rivers https://git.io/J60J7 18:29:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9628: Feature: Wide rivers https://git.io/J168F 18:35:52 <TrueBrain> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-11-19-allow-bypassing-required-pull-requests/ <- seems this means we can solve DorpsGek's permissions properly :) 18:36:44 <glx> oh removing DorpsGek from admins 18:41:41 <frosch123> poor dorpsgek getting demoted 18:45:33 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:58:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rob9283 commented on issue #9706: [Crash]: Repeated Out Of Memory crashes https://git.io/J10LG 19:02:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9706: [Crash]: Repeated Out Of Memory crashes https://git.io/J10LG 19:14:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9709: Feature: Build objects by area https://git.io/J1629 19:16:45 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 19:17:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rob9283 commented on issue #9706: [Crash]: Repeated Out Of Memory crashes https://git.io/J10LG 19:19:09 <frosch123> we need an example how to add settings without bumping savegame version 19:20:30 <frosch123> with the new savegame format, i think neither #9693 nor #9709 need a savegame bump 19:24:15 <TrueBrain> It's easy, just add it :p 19:24:46 <dP> nor #9457 ;) 19:45:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] davewthompson commented on issue #77: [Bug]: Sub-tropical landscape has incorrect shops and office buildings https://git.io/J1VG4 19:50:45 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 19:50:45 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 19:57:47 *** tokai has quit IRC 20:03:47 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 20:18:36 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 20:30:26 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 20:32:02 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:35:04 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:35:59 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 20:36:02 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 20:36:08 <andythenorth> yo 20:36:12 <andythenorth> what is 'karma' on reddit? 20:36:24 <supermop_work> yo 20:36:25 <andythenorth> is it like whuffie? 20:36:34 <supermop_work> probably something you don't need? 20:36:49 <andythenorth> I seem to have gained some 20:36:51 <andythenorth> not sure why 20:36:56 <andythenorth> is it a game I can win? 20:37:07 <supermop_work> quit while you're ahead 20:38:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wrenger opened issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk 20:38:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: post cat pictures to increase it 20:40:05 <frosch123> oh right, the poll finished today 20:40:44 <glx> pff github is in unicorn mode 20:40:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk 20:41:27 <andythenorth> we had a poll? 20:41:33 <andythenorth> how do I vote? 20:41:39 <andythenorth> what am I angry about? 20:42:15 <andythenorth> I don't usually crosspost from discord, but this is nice 20:42:16 <andythenorth> " PatchByte: i don't know why, but when i play openttd i feel like home, i absolutely love this game, it is so cool that it is free thank you." 20:48:23 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 20:51:59 <frosch123> lol, i need some fake account to post on reddit... 20:52:18 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:52:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:53:04 <andythenorth> I used the 'register with Apple ID' thing 20:53:20 <andythenorth> avoids leaking data to reddit 20:54:46 <frosch123> https://dpaste.org/awXK :) 20:57:28 <andythenorth> oh a poll :o 20:57:31 <andythenorth> I see :) 20:58:26 <andythenorth> oh dear :) 21:02:07 <frosch123> it was a "the devs ignore the public, make a democratic vote to proof they are wrong"-poll, it concluded not the way they wanted, so they go "Haha this is how democracy works. The mass of morons has more "suffrage" than the minority of those who know how to think and criticize." 21:02:49 <andythenorth> oh brexit? 21:02:52 <andythenorth> I see 21:03:07 <frosch123> it applies to many things :) 21:04:55 <frosch123> people said, with modern technology, darwins selection no longer applies to humans, but anti-worming-agents win 21:06:04 <andythenorth> ivermectin? :P 21:07:47 <frosch123> something like that 21:10:11 * andythenorth seeks a long-reserve signal 21:10:25 <frosch123> try factorio 21:10:25 <andythenorth> so we can restore appropriate confusion for new players 21:10:52 <andythenorth> when V is allowed to make Factorio look like BRIX I will try it again :P 21:10:58 <andythenorth> the graphics gave me a twitch 21:11:19 <frosch123> they changed all graphics like 3 times, so you have some choice 21:12:09 * andythenorth watches a trailer 21:12:20 <andythenorth> oh I remember, the camera angle gives me vertigo :) 21:12:26 <andythenorth> like our scrolling intro does :) 21:22:50 <glx> move the mouse :) 21:27:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk 21:27:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk 21:30:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I was pleasantly surprised the button Aro added was appreciated, looking at that poll. Personally I did not expect that to be the case. So it was a useful poll :D 21:32:14 <dP> which option on that poll counts as appreciation? 21:34:01 <frosch123> the last one 21:34:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, i also was mostly "you do not need this option often, but when you do it must be easy to find" 21:34:59 <frosch123> dP: while the author probably added it as sarcasm, i don't think the participants did 21:35:10 <dP> idk, I feel like the last one is for people who didn't understand what it all was about 21:35:23 <dP> btw, funny fact some TG guys voted for last one at first xD 21:35:46 <frosch123> oh, they needed some beating to get in line? :p 21:37:56 <dP> beating is an awkward way to put it 21:38:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #9709: Feature: Build objects by area https://git.io/J16Nv 21:38:42 <dP> anyway, I kinda feel that that poll is somewhat useless for any meaningful conclusions 21:38:51 <dP> well, except that many use pbs only 21:39:29 <andythenorth> an accurate conclusion would be 'some people have their pants in a knot' 21:39:35 <andythenorth> poll shows that well 21:40:02 <frosch123> dP: i would claim that reddit is already dominated by non-newbie players. so if even they mostly use pbs, ... 21:40:19 <andythenorth> some of the questions suggest a parallel very-newbie audience 21:40:23 <peter1138> TG? 21:40:30 <andythenorth> I suspect there are two columns on the graph 21:40:33 <andythenorth> at opposite ends 21:40:37 <dP> peter1138, TeamGame aka Rau and co 21:40:42 <glx> priority merge and similar stuff is a niche usecase 21:41:02 <andythenorth> reddit seems to be (a) people utterly clueless about everything up to and including life (b) deep nerds 21:41:25 <andythenorth> I never knew what a prio merge was until the reddit post 21:41:28 <andythenorth> quite interesting idea 21:41:34 <peter1138> "presignals exist specifically for complex logic" 21:41:47 <andythenorth> long reserve PBS :P 21:42:03 <andythenorth> would also fix green signals :P 21:42:15 <TrueBrain> PR when? 21:42:15 <andythenorth> probably has HORRIBLE side effects 21:42:16 <glx> we had no other choice in pre-PBS time than using presignals, but now we can avoid them :) 21:42:27 <andythenorth> like long reserve, but then the train breaks down 21:42:58 *** Tirili has quit IRC 21:43:21 <andythenorth> long reserve, but the train with the reservation is MUCH slower than a different train approaching on a merging line 21:43:38 <peter1138> I mean... complex "logic" was a side effect... 21:44:10 <andythenorth> long reserve, but someone missed one tile of elrail 21:44:18 <glx> it's mostly abusing the signal updater :) 21:44:27 <andythenorth> long reserve, but up a hill, and the train is under-powered 21:44:34 <dP> peter1138, times changed :p 21:44:44 * andythenorth plays an advanced version of 'whatabout' gatekeeping :P 21:44:51 <frosch123> glx: it's almost like having a pathfinder setting that changes the behavior of some signal type :p 21:44:55 <peter1138> https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/7/71/Terminal2.png < THIS is why presignals exist... 21:45:39 <glx> yes to solve an issue becaus PBS didn't exist yet 21:46:43 <glx> then people found inventive other usages 21:47:36 <dP> reasons they were created != reasons they're still useful :p 21:47:47 <peter1138> https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/qw26az/do_we_need_entrycomboexit_signals_or_would_a/ < First comment is what I'm reacting to :D 21:48:21 <dP> peter1138, yeah, and guess who wrote it? :p 21:48:39 <peter1138> No idea. 21:48:47 <peter1138> Well, citymaniac. 21:48:57 <frosch123> oh, i also learned from reddit, that TG apparently hates jgrpp for realism 21:49:39 <andythenorth> I lol-ed a bit at that 21:49:45 <glx> do they know they're free to fork ? 21:49:47 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 21:49:50 <andythenorth> I think that means JGR is winning 21:49:51 <frosch123> i did not know that jgrpp has a realism focus, not sure whether jgr knew that either 21:50:09 <andythenorth> if JGR is both too much realism, and too much advanced gameplay 21:50:11 <andythenorth> I think that's won 21:50:21 <dP> glx, they're not very good at c++ :p 21:51:17 <dP> to a point of being stuck on compiling stage 21:56:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #244: Add: support for stations https://git.io/JPXOt 21:58:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #244: Add: support for stations https://git.io/J16p3 22:03:38 *** _aD has joined #openttd 22:05:02 <andythenorth> :D 22:05:15 <glx> https://gist.github.com/glx22/301ac434df8bfd41e137bc219a5bf465 <-- my current test (inside chips src dir) 22:06:08 <andythenorth> how cool :D 22:06:14 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:06:21 <glx> of course using a big spriteset for ground tiles is not the best idea 22:06:24 <andythenorth> nice that yexo's original 'CHIPS is for making nml stations' came real 22:07:04 <glx> but it shows how things can work 22:08:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9709: Feature: Build objects by area https://git.io/J16jJ 22:09:44 <glx> NFO version is using different layouts and select the one to use via callback 14, I'm aiming at 1 layout (well 2 because X and Y) and selection via registers 22:10:21 <glx> multi layer with optional drawing 22:12:39 <frosch123> haha, you added a check for ottd 1.2.0 >=r22723 ? :) 22:12:56 <glx> I copy pasted some examples 22:14:55 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/blob/5dd2173cf7b72678e1e84e546cc7954b42264349/examples/station/example_station.nml <-- this one is less complex 22:15:17 <glx> (and has blinking cows) 22:25:17 *** Tirili has quit IRC 22:26:39 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 22:33:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #9002: Change cargo age to have more effect on cargo payment. https://git.io/J1iJo 22:40:08 <andythenorth> hmm 22:40:33 <andythenorth> comment suggests there's a version of FIRS with a 1:3 input:output ratio 22:40:39 <andythenorth> must be another fork :P 22:42:17 <dP> I like how payment rates on his chart are higher than current ones xD 22:42:48 *** Tirili has quit IRC 22:43:28 <frosch123> inflation? 22:43:42 <dP> no, I mean his suggestion 22:43:48 <dP> as if it's not broken enough already xD 22:48:02 <andythenorth> funny how I caused all this by adding restaurant cars :P 22:48:08 <andythenorth> such lol 22:52:31 <dP> well, openttd economy has always been a sore spot 22:54:41 <frosch123> you can't fix an exponential economy :) 22:55:10 <frosch123> either the start is boring because you can't do anything, or you have too much money later 22:55:41 <frosch123> other games have multiple currencies, which do not grow 22:55:57 <dP> well, it's kinda fixed on citymania cb 22:55:59 <frosch123> starcraft has gas, eu4 has monarch points 22:56:12 <dP> there is always something to spend money on 22:56:18 <frosch123> both increase a bit during game, but not really much 22:57:04 <dP> multiple currencies/resources won't be a bad idea for openttd either 22:58:07 * andythenorth is experimenting with multiple currencies in FIRS 22:58:17 <andythenorth> early tests are inconclusive :P 22:58:28 <andythenorth> money, optimism, pollution 22:59:15 <frosch123> we could add signals as currency :p 22:59:37 <dP> I wouldn't mind rails as currency xD 22:59:48 <andythenorth> aren't signals the paid DLC? 23:00:10 <andythenorth> block signals, 3 euro / month 23:00:20 <andythenorth> we will make at least 300 euro 23:00:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: how about some new industry vars: total amount of cargo transported by player, number of rail pieces, total capacity of all player vehicles :p 23:00:40 <frosch123> then you can punish "lots of empty track" and "lots of empty wagons" 23:00:47 <andythenorth> or reward it 23:01:10 <andythenorth> is it too sensible to suggest they're town vars? 23:01:16 <andythenorth> and let station rating cb access town? 23:01:29 <andythenorth> we are supposed to be doing troll ideas? :) 23:01:55 <frosch123> rail pieces per town sounds difficult 23:02:12 <andythenorth> hmm stations can access town? 23:02:16 * andythenorth must explore 23:02:21 <dP> just let objects do everything :p 23:02:36 <frosch123> station rating cb is a cargo callback, isn't it? 23:02:36 <andythenorth> oh town vars are boring, don't do much 23:02:43 <andythenorth> yeah it's a cargo cb, I always forget 23:02:50 <andythenorth> that's why it has to be put back into FIRS 23:03:45 <andythenorth> can we have vars for type of signal used? 23:03:48 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/Design%20Drafts/NewGRF/Secondary%20Related%20Objects <- "TODO CB 39 (cargo profit) could make use of station (cargo delivery history) and town of station. possibly also destination industry?" 23:03:56 <andythenorth> ha ha 23:03:56 <frosch123> again nothing new :p 23:04:14 <andythenorth> hmm I could detect 'all PBS' and decide it's 'noob' mode 23:04:23 <andythenorth> and all block, must be super l33t 23:04:59 <andythenorth> one mode has industry closure and one does not 23:05:03 <andythenorth> you decide which :P 23:05:29 <dP> frosch123, can you do PR9002 in newgrf with those? :p 23:05:37 <frosch123> haha, tieing "pbs" to "industry closure" is cool 23:05:55 <dP> destination industry is useful though except by the time cb39 is called there is no single industry anymore 23:05:58 <andythenorth> can we also tie hovercraft availability to pbs or not? 23:06:16 <andythenorth> also can I tell yogscast you'll have land hovercraft for them to use in Jingle Jam? :P 23:07:13 <frosch123> dP: it'S cargo payment, not station rating 23:07:42 <frosch123> it's called on delivery, which knows both source tile and target industry 23:07:56 <frosch123> "source industry" is hard, because it may have closed 23:08:00 <dP> nope, it can be delivered to multiple industries 23:08:04 <dP> or no industries at all 23:08:16 <frosch123> then you would call the callback multiple times 23:08:39 <andythenorth> GS :P 23:08:44 <dP> then you'll have to group by destination first 23:08:50 * andythenorth is aware that GS is not cb driven 23:08:54 <dP> as calling it for each cargo packet would be too much 23:09:09 <dP> hm, or, nvm 23:09:15 <andythenorth> maybe game script should be able to generate newgrf lambdas 23:09:18 <frosch123> anyway, pr9002: half can be done by newgrf. noone wanted to make a testgrf back then 23:09:25 <andythenorth> hmm 23:09:26 <frosch123> other half of PR can't be done. 23:09:43 <andythenorth> GS -> grf lambdas would be so evil, we should do it 23:10:01 <andythenorth> GS gets to cache a function which grf will use in cbs 23:10:47 <frosch123> does it specify the function in squirrel, or as nfo string? :p 23:11:01 <andythenorth> nfo string via an evil compiler we have to create 23:11:15 <andythenorth> I think it's called 'nml' 23:11:36 <andythenorth> it's such a horrible idea, I really like it 23:11:46 <andythenorth> April 1? 23:12:39 <frosch123> hmm, who would be triggered by a rumour of ottd 13.0 dropping support for grf in favour of directly loading nml? 23:12:55 <dP> me :p 23:12:55 <andythenorth> I suspect I could name names 23:13:04 <dP> I just wrote a grf generator xD 23:13:07 <andythenorth> I am not going to name names 23:13:39 <andythenorth> don't we have a PR for grf -> nml decompiling? 23:13:57 <glx> no 23:15:23 <glx> it's almost impossible to get nml from nfo or grf 23:15:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: when truepilot is added to truegrf, you can directly import sprites from other license-compatible grfs from bananas :) 23:16:01 <glx> even for nfo generated from nml 23:17:00 <frosch123> glx: probably not impossible, but just unreadable and thus useless 23:17:32 <andythenorth> will truepilot also suggest your grf design for you? 23:18:24 <frosch123> truepilot probably also gives a preview for "community reaction". you can choose between reddit and tt-forums. though the latter somehow always yields "none" 23:19:00 <andythenorth> I suspect it should lead to an OOM 23:19:22 <frosch123> depends whether you run truegrf in chrome 23:19:33 <andythenorth> do we have a return value in grf for 'crash the client'? 23:19:38 <andythenorth> that would be helpful 23:19:50 <andythenorth> 'you have used too much PBS, crash the client' 23:20:08 <frosch123> in older versions there were :) 23:20:38 <frosch123> now you have messages like "broken newgrf: industry production callback triggered an infinite loop" 23:20:44 <glx> old trusty asserts ? 23:21:34 <frosch123> there was some broken industry newgrf (pretty sure by some citybuilder), which returned an uniitialised register for "repeat production callback" 23:21:45 <frosch123> the grf did not use the register, so it worked if the newgrf was used alone 23:21:55 <frosch123> when some other grf used that register, it would trigger an infinite loop 23:22:17 <andythenorth> ideal 23:22:27 <andythenorth> I am going to start a poll on reddit 23:22:32 <andythenorth> demanding the return of that 23:22:49 <frosch123> (meanwhile newgrf registers are reset before every cb, esp since people relied on sidechannels to pass data between callbacks...) 23:23:42 <glx> desync hell ? 23:24:13 *** EER has quit IRC 23:24:23 <frosch123> compatibilty hell 23:24:59 <frosch123> ottd calls like 10 different callbacks to set train properties after refitting 23:25:18 <frosch123> some grf relied on the order in which ottd called them, to pass data in registers between them 23:25:19 <glx> never trust newgrf authors (especially if they coded in pure NFO) 23:25:35 <frosch123> so if ottd changed anything, the grf would be broken :p 23:25:54 <frosch123> i killed that hard, and a minority was pretty upset :p 23:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs are king, not the implementation 23:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, large parts of the specs are basically "this is how TTD happened to work" 23:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and large parts of TTDPatch were "this was the easiest way we could shim something in" 23:29:07 <glx> and same happened with NRT, specs mostly come from the initial implementation IIRC 23:29:41 <andythenorth> 'what is NRT?' 23:29:52 <andythenorth> didn't we agree it doesn't exist and we don't talk about it? 23:41:04 <andythenorth> also bedtime 23:41:06 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:41:47 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:42:40 <milek7> I'm somewhat surprised that ttdpatch didn't just implement callbacks as x86 code 23:53:10 *** frosch123 has quit IRC