Log for #openttd on 7th December 2021:
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07:18:36  <peter1138> Judging by the MET office, today would not be a good day to cycle.
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08:12:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9726: Fix: Prevents crash when no industries are present
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09:56:04  <dP> certainly not a good day for cycling
09:56:12  <dP> not bad for skiing though ;)
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13:38:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots
13:38:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #9577: Feature: Multi-tile depots
13:40:06  <peter1138> Multi-tile docks!
13:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we had those already?
13:49:41  <J0anJosep> :P
13:53:04  <peter1138> Oh
13:53:12  <peter1138> Newgrf docks!
13:53:17  <peter1138> (I have a patch for that)
13:55:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots
13:56:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots
14:10:53  <Wolf01> andythenorth:
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14:32:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots
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15:12:42  <supermop_HNL> good morning
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16:30:10  <Andres_> Afternoon lads.
16:30:58  <Andres_> I have a quick question, case anyone could know; is there any way to make an industry pull resources from a station, or do they have to be 'looped' back in?
16:40:53  <nielsm> the latter
16:41:28  <nielsm> cargo is only delivered to accepting buildings/industries when a vehicle unloads, not when it's sitting on the station
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17:31:24  <Andres_> So two industries in the same chane who share a station will not auto-transfer, right?
17:31:31  <Andres_> chain*
17:31:39  <LordAro> correct
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17:58:48  <nielsm> that is a mechanic in the Train Fever and Transport Fever games though
17:59:42  <nielsm> I'm not sure if it changed in the later games, but at least originally, cargo would "walk" along roads from industry to station and station to industry, but could also "walk" industry to industry if they were close
18:00:39  <Andres_> I've just added some little ships to loop the stuff around
18:00:50  <Andres_> I am unsure of where it is going altogether now but I think it works
18:01:22  <nielsm> you can't deliver cargo to the station it originated from, by the way, has to be between two separate stations
18:02:07  <nielsm> and since payment is made for the distance between the originating and destination _stations_, it makes more sense financially to move cargo between stations further apart
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18:13:21  <andythenorth> le oof
18:16:27  <dP> you can force unload to the same station
18:16:35  <dP> not that it makes much sense to do so
18:17:18  <nielsm> oh does it deliver then, at zero income?
18:22:32  <dP> hm, no, looks like it transfers
18:22:43  <dP> I thought you ca deliver
18:22:53  <dP> or maybe something changed
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18:37:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kiptoke updated pull request #9726: Fix: Prevents crash when no industries are present
18:40:36  <frosch123> must be a sibling of samu
18:41:29  <TrueBrain> && false, nice
18:42:05  <nielsm> after writing that comment I noticed there is also an instance of that variable use in the other chunk, but skipped writing about it since it should be understood that the comment applies to all the code...
18:42:38  <frosch123> check out the comment at line 325 :)
18:42:58  <TrueBrain> haha :D
18:43:02  <TrueBrain> famous last words :P
18:43:21  <TrueBrain> for some reason that PR feels like ... patching up the problem, instead of fixing it :)
18:43:23  <LordAro> also seems to have made the files executable
18:43:26  <TrueBrain> that blob around 502 makes very little sense
18:44:21  <nielsm> the proper thing to do would be disallowing the Fund industry window from opening at all if there are none available, wouldn't it
18:44:33  <TrueBrain> or at least disable the buttons once you open it?
18:44:53  <frosch123> or make it handle selected_index = -1 correctly everywhere
18:45:08  <frosch123> but however you put it, you can fix it faster yourself, than teaching it to someone
18:45:08  <nielsm> although that doesn't handle the case when industries stop being available (due to year restrictions)
18:45:58  <glx> and the first version of the PR was just changing the assert
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18:52:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola
18:52:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola
18:53:23  <frosch123> it was a good idea to make the script put the usernames into the commit message
18:53:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola
18:53:49  <frosch123> the first time i failed at c&p and entered "speedball" twice, which would have been the wrong gh account :)
18:54:05  <TrueBrain> nice :D
18:54:13  <TrueBrain> I am also still really happy we moved the DB to GitHub
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18:55:12  <frosch123> yeah, and migration is still easier than implementing some ldap backend, esp since ldap no longer exists :)
18:55:23  <TrueBrain> :D
18:55:40  <frosch123> and i feel like half of them would have forgotten their pw anyway
18:55:54  <TrueBrain> so happy we no longer have to deal with account management
18:55:59  <TrueBrain> that was so .... "less fun"
18:56:19  <frosch123> and the GDPR that comes with it :)
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20:42:46  <andythenorth> hmm did we ever discuss BODMAS? (order of operations)
20:46:29  <milek7> what?
20:46:43  <frosch123> what is there to discuss? do you need to explain it to child #2?
20:47:23  <andythenorth> I seem to have grown up in a parallel universe
20:47:45  <andythenorth> throughout primary school, secondary school and university
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20:48:05  <andythenorth> all my teachers conspired to NEVER teach BODMAS, and to emphasise, 'always put in the brackets or the sum might fail'
20:48:16  <andythenorth> it seems I had the only 5 teachers in the world who believe that
20:48:27  <andythenorth> everybody else learns BODMAS like the weird cult that it is
20:48:29  <andythenorth> so
20:48:35  <andythenorth> 1 -2 + 4 = ?
20:49:16  <glx> order doesn't matter in this case :)
20:49:44  <frosch123> is that "1 - 2 + 4" or "1*(-2) + 4"?
20:50:19  <andythenorth> no it's 1 -2 + 4
20:50:21  <andythenorth> using BODMAS
20:50:26  <andythenorth> the 'rule'
20:51:15  <frosch123> now i understand why infix notation is considered inferior to prefix/postfix notation :)
20:51:41  * andythenorth googles
20:53:03  <andythenorth> I always avoided learning what RPN was
20:53:17  <glx> RPN is easy :)
20:53:20  <LordAro> you need something like "8 / 2(2 + 2)" to show the failings of BODMAS
20:53:31  <andythenorth> RPN looks brilliant
20:53:41  <andythenorth> LordAro 1 -2 + 4 won't do it?
20:53:45  <LordAro> not really
20:53:54  <andythenorth> I found it in an example from a UK maths teacher about why they won't teach BODMAS
20:54:00  <glx> the issue here is -
20:54:07  <glx> is it unary or binary ?
20:54:16  <andythenorth> well what's the answer, using actual maths?
20:54:24  <andythenorth> not some social convention used for dunces
20:54:41  <glx> if unary, the result is 2
20:54:52  <andythenorth> and if binary?
20:54:57  <glx> if binary it's 3
20:55:01  <frosch123> using actual math: always write a dot, if two numbers are involved, only ommit dots for variables
20:55:05  <andythenorth> but in neither case is it -5?
20:55:15  <frosch123> "2a" is okay "ab" is okay, "2 3" is not
20:55:20  <LordAro> it's a strange way of formatting it, but if there's no parens it's pretty weird to assume that there's a multiplication in there
20:55:30  <andythenorth> 1 - 6
20:55:49  <glx> can't be -6
20:55:58  <andythenorth> Addition before Subtraction
20:56:04  <andythenorth> so 1  - (2 + 4)
20:56:13  <andythenorth> it's a laughably wrong social convention
20:56:15  <LordAro> makes no difference which order you do add/sub in
20:56:26  <andythenorth> in maths it makes no difference
20:56:33  <andythenorth> in a weird cult, it makes a difference
20:56:53  <frosch123> if what place does BODMAS mean additon before subtraction?
20:57:27  <LordAro>
20:57:36  <frosch123> <- i did not know the abbreviation, and ducked that
20:57:40  <LordAro> though their example is weird too
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20:58:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, if your argument is that BODMAS is a terrible ambiguous abbreviation, i may agree :)
20:58:40  <glx> but div and mul have the same priority
20:58:52  <frosch123> in german it is "punkt vor strich": "dot before dash"
20:58:58  <glx> idem for add and sub (but lower taht div/mul)
20:59:18  <frosch123> refering to both · and : containing dots, and + and - containing dashes
20:59:55  <andythenorth> child #1 is taught that AS are equivalent, and performed left to right
21:00:03  <frosch123> that is correct :)
21:00:03  <andythenorth> but the school specifically teaches that
21:00:14  <andythenorth> it all seems so weird
21:00:36  <TrueBrain> for a moment I thought you read too much reddit
21:00:43  <andythenorth> this must be proof that I have fallen through a wormhole into a parallel universe
21:01:11  <frosch123> even the C author got the priorities of */ and +- correct :)
21:01:28  <frosch123> and that says a lot, considering they got the unary * wrong
21:01:38  <andythenorth> when I did civil engineering maths, the lecturer was basically like 'lol you can rely on order of operations, if you want to be the one explaining why the building fell down'
21:01:50  <andythenorth> 'real engineers put the parentheses in'
21:02:13  <TrueBrain> explicit before implicit, what a weird concept you present
21:02:21  <glx> of course parentheses simplify the reading
21:02:38  <andythenorth> RPN looks really neat, I might go in a rabbit hole
21:02:54  <frosch123> i have a hp calculator that uses rpn
21:03:10  <frosch123> it was pretty convenient when i used calculators
21:03:16  <glx> + + 1 1 1
21:03:27  <andythenorth> does it make operations over long sequences of numbers really trivial?
21:03:30  <frosch123> glx: that is forward :)
21:03:37  <andythenorth> it looks like 'operator', 'stack'
21:03:41  <LordAro> andythenorth: yup
21:04:02  <glx> oh yeah that's lisp without the parentheses
21:04:03  <TrueBrain> glx: that would result in some stack corruption I think :P
21:04:19  <milek7> frosch123: does : is actually used?
21:04:35  <glx> 1 1 + 1 + seems better indeed
21:05:05  <frosch123> rpn is convenient if you have to sum many numbers, because you can just write all the numbers, and then you can recheck the numbers while your finger is on +
21:05:36  <LordAro> `1 2 / 3 4 + *` === `(3 + 4) * (2 / 1)`
21:05:41  <andythenorth> wonder if I'm capable of writing a python RPN calculator :P
21:05:43  <frosch123> milek7: ":" was used in elementary school, "/" is only used once you learn fractions
21:06:25  <LordAro> never heard of : being used before
21:06:29  <andythenorth> ok this person is from same parallel universe as me :D
21:06:41  <LordAro> some sort of hybrid of ÷ ?
21:06:42  <andythenorth> "Infix Notation ● Requires parentheses to remove ambiguity"
21:07:08  <TrueBrain> I really was thinking andythenorth read
21:07:12  <frosch123> LordAro: look on your keyboard, it has a ÷ key, which can be simplified to :
21:07:26  <glx> I only used ÷ I think
21:07:30  <LordAro> ^
21:07:40  <LordAro> my keyboard doesn't have a ÷ key :p
21:07:43  <andythenorth> TrueBrain child #1 showed me the YouTube video equivalent of that
21:07:51  <frosch123> i think : was used, because ÷ is too close to -
21:07:54  <frosch123> or +
21:08:27  <glx> but eh we also have é è and ê :)
21:08:30  <TrueBrain> I like how several people in that reddit thread go: IT IS OBVIOUSLY THIS
21:08:40  <TrueBrain> where there is nothing obvious about that sum, really :P
21:08:42  <glx> oh and ë of course
21:08:44  <andythenorth> 6 / 2(1+2) is nonsense
21:08:49  <andythenorth> let 1+2 = n
21:08:55  <TrueBrain> either use a dot or a x .. fuck off with nothingness
21:08:56  <andythenorth> 6 / 2n
21:09:09  <andythenorth> n = 3
21:09:12  <andythenorth> answer is 1
21:09:16  <andythenorth> not this '9' bollocks
21:09:19  <andythenorth> it's tragic
21:09:32  <andythenorth> never write the expression that way
21:09:39  <andythenorth> Apple tells me it's actually 9 but eh
21:09:52  <glx> clearly 1
21:10:02  <andythenorth> order of operations disagrees
21:10:17  <TrueBrain> depends on your background really :D
21:10:24  <andythenorth> but it unpicks everything I was taught about algebra and evaluating algebraic expressions
21:10:35  <andythenorth> oh well :)
21:10:36  <andythenorth> nvm
21:10:38  <glx> yeah left to right, but it's really not the best way to write it
21:10:57  <frosch123> glx: there was one book in my parents' shelve, where the authors' name had a "ë". it was the most exciting thing to young me :)
21:11:02  <andythenorth> 6 / 2n is apparently (6 / 2) * n
21:11:05  <andythenorth> which is weird as all fuck
21:11:11  <TrueBrain> also wrong :P
21:11:19  <andythenorth> Apple calculator disagrees
21:13:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: you are mixing two things.  "6 / 2 * n" is indeed "(6  / 2) * n". but omitting the * is only valid if you use horizonal fractions, not the / short hand
21:14:13  <frosch123> also, i can't write the horizontal fraction with unicode
21:14:16  <andythenorth> :)
21:14:17  <frosch123> that triggers a oftc bot
21:14:21  <frosch123> already tried that before :)
21:14:46  <LordAro> @calc 6 / 2(1+2)
21:14:46  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Error: 'float' object is not callable
21:14:56  <andythenorth> yeah that
21:14:56  <frosch123> so "6 / 2n" is "syntax error" :)
21:14:58  <LordAro> definitive.
21:15:11  <frosch123> dorpsgek knew it all the time :)
21:15:23  <LordAro> @calc 6 / 2*(1+2)
21:15:23  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 9
21:15:32  <LordAro> the issue is of course that adding the '*' changes its meaning
21:15:58  <frosch123> and that you are messing with spaces, assuming they matter :p
21:16:04  <andythenorth> so the reddit post lacks column C, people going 'lolwut?'
21:16:04  <LordAro> so yeah, you run into arguments with people who never got to the 2n phase of learning maths
21:16:07  <glx> for me 2n is always (2 * n) so 6/ (2 * n)
21:16:27  <andythenorth> same thing went round facebook some while ago
21:16:30  <frosch123> so 2n != 2*n :)
21:16:38  <LordAro> "oh, parens, that just means multiply"
21:16:40  <frosch123> it's a different operator with different priority
21:16:53  <LordAro> i don't think anyone is disagreeing with anyone else here
21:17:15  <andythenorth> ok so I'm not just a visitor from a parallel universe?
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21:18:04  <glx> and there's a reason why it's recommended to use parentheses in some cases :)
21:19:08  <michi_cc> Parentheses help if you're in a medium that doesn't support the full normal maths notation.
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21:19:13  <milek7> seems like problem existing only in calculators with single line input
21:19:15  <frosch123> [21:42] <andythenorth> hmm did we ever discuss BODMAS? (order of operations) <- 36 minutes later now, happy?
21:19:17  <glx> on paper it's easy to see what 6 / 2 * n will be as usually the 2 is under the 6
21:19:26  <milek7> I have never seen division written in single line in real life
21:19:36  <milek7> and in C-like syntax you can't multiply without * anyway
21:19:38  <andythenorth> very happy :)
21:19:41  <andythenorth> men's shed
21:20:01  <andythenorth> reddit said "It’s not 1, not anywhere in the world. You either remember it wrong or never learned it correctly. It’s always been 9. Old, ways, new ways, it’s always worked out to 9 if it was solved correctly. It’s not both. Sorry if that offended anyone, just fact."
21:20:17  <andythenorth> which is, I guess, the problem of confusing 'social convention' with 'fact'
21:20:17  <frosch123> milek7: how did you write it in elementary school with integer-division only?
21:20:18  <TrueBrain> factually wrong \o/ :D
21:20:52  <andythenorth> there was a whole better answer about 'mathematicians just don't write this shit like this'
21:21:00  <andythenorth> someone else said 'python says lol'
21:23:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: python2 would say "7 / 2 * 3 == 9" :p
21:23:33  <andythenorth> yeah 'lol' seems to not be in standard library
21:23:36  <andythenorth> maybe it should be
21:24:18  <andythenorth> RPN has slightly blown my mind, I knew alternative notations existed, but never what they were
21:24:45  <andythenorth> it's so incredibly elegant
21:24:49  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Try writing your NewGRFs in Forth now :)
21:24:58  <LordAro>
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21:27:32  <milek7> frosch123: ok, good point. but this was before x(...) style was introduced, so dot was always used
21:27:55  <andythenorth> nml -> forth anyone? :P
21:28:30  <andythenorth> stack programming looks quite fun
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21:52:15  <andythenorth> hmm
21:53:05  <andythenorth> maths stack exchange says it's not BODMAS, it's  BO(D,M)(A,S)
21:53:16  <andythenorth> which I guess is a nice finale point
21:56:09  <andythenorth> or BOMA, because division is multiplication by 1 / x , and subtraction is just addition of negative numbers
21:56:13  <andythenorth> that makes a lot more sense
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22:28:59  * dP just learned that nibble is an actual technical term
22:29:05  <dP> wonders of newgrf specs
22:32:03  <Rubidium> you're just a few weeks too late for the 50 year anniversary of Intel's introduction of their nibble CPU
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