Log for #openttd on 17th December 2021:
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10:59:00  <basxto> mhm okay, I’ll just see what line lingths look good with the default window size, the readme gets opened with
11:00:26  <basxto> is theer a way other than having a custom openttd.cfg to start a game with just a given newGRF file?
11:04:33  <basxto> currently I have something in [newgrf] defined, but that seems to break when the version changes (probably because the folder structure inside the tar changes, but I don’t fully understand it)
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11:34:55  <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure what you're trying to achieve. but the game tends to be conservative with newgrf changes, as that tends to break savegames and other stuff
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11:38:20  <NGC3982> scott bacula
11:41:24  <LordAro> jason isaacs
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12:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> jason momoa (what exact game are we playing?)
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13:35:34  <dP> oh crap, new DoCommand is already merged
13:35:40  <dP> planned to review it this weekend :(
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15:06:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9725: Template DoCommand and friends
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15:16:18  <andythenorth> interesting
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16:13:04  <SpComb> ${jndi:ldap://}
16:16:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb commented on issue #9743: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashes on startup (MacBook Pro 2020, M1)
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16:30:32  <basxto> Eddi|zuHause: well, I tinker with a newGRF and want to launch a test game, but it seems to be enough when I just only set the grafid and leave the rest blank. I’m currently launch it with openttd -x -g -c run/openttd.cfg
16:31:00  <LordAro> SpComb: trying to take down the java-based irc loggers/clients?
16:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> basxto: you can try keeping the game open, and run "reload_newgrfs" (beware of crashes, depending what you change)
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16:37:25  <basxto> I’m changing a town names newgrf, but combined with `restart` that one could be interesting
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17:20:26  <andythenorth> yo
17:20:36  <andythenorth> please notify me when 2021 is over, I'm going to sleep
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17:57:48  <TrueBrain> Poor andy
18:07:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dimaspaf14 commented on issue #9723: [Bug]: Undetected GPU
18:07:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dimaspaf14 closed issue #9723: [Bug]: Undetected GPU
18:08:03  <frosch123> hmm, i guess i finally reached the dead end, when i need to migrate the coop hg stuff
18:08:35  <frosch123> i postponed distro update because i did want to resetup the hg-git magic afterwards
18:08:42  <frosch123> but now i need a new compiler to compile ottd :p
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18:11:37  <frosch123> wow, one of the bananas users has a 5-digit github-user-id
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18:13:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino
18:14:40  <glx> is that equivalent to 8-digit ICQ id ?
18:16:42  <frosch123> signed up in first 3 months
18:17:08  <frosch123> well, technically in the 4th
18:17:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino
18:17:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino
18:17:59  <TrueBrain> impressive frosch123
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18:19:11  <frosch123> though i have no idea how founding of the company correlates with startup of the website
18:19:17  <frosch123> maybe they worked at gh?
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18:20:22  <frosch123> ah, wiki knows the dates. so they signed up 1 month after beta ended
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19:28:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9725: Template DoCommand and friends
19:52:05  <michi_cc> ^ That's better than any answer I could think of.
19:54:55  <LordAro> mm, good answer :)
20:02:48  <dP> good answer for a wrong question :p
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20:03:04  <dP> I never doubted that it's a good refactoring
20:03:14  <LordAro> dP: there's very little actionable in your comment, as i read it
20:03:28  <LordAro> it very much read as "i don't like change"
20:03:32  <LordAro> and not much else
20:03:33  <dP> problem is that impact is way bigger
20:03:52  <dP> well, what actionable you expect when pr is already merged??
20:04:03  <dP> we'll get there I guess
20:04:08  <LordAro> well, vaguely specific issues would be a start
20:05:09  <dP> honestly my biggest issue is that is only being discussed after it's merged
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20:05:27  <dP> it's like noone even stopped for a second to think how this would impact community
20:06:28  <dP> encoding - check, decoding - check, approve, merge, done
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20:20:55  <frosch12> i should more often use the term "community" when i mean "I"
20:21:58  <frosch12> anyway, there is a list-commands api on the admin port
20:22:14  <frosch12> it can probably extended to give a list of (int, int, bool, string, ...)
20:22:23  <frosch12> the template magic should allow that
20:24:32  <frosch12> at my old company some CS guy once joined a team mostly consisting of engineers
20:25:13  <frosch12> he started using templates a lot, until the engineers took out the pitchforks
20:25:26  <frosch12> i think it needed like 5 hours to explain them the advantages, and then it was fine :)
20:26:09  <frosch12> it's just too easy for people to try to burn stuff they are not used to
20:26:15  <dP> by "community" I mean, for example btpro
20:26:28  <dP> though by the looks of it you kinda murdered it already with 12.0
20:26:42  <dP> but command change would probably be a nice final nail in the coffin
20:27:15  <dP> as I suspect their whole "undo" system relies on that admin port thing
20:27:50  <glx> it may be easier to do with the new format
20:28:02  <frosch12> what does it change? if someone builds something which relies on any observable behavior, you cannot ever change anythign
20:28:21  <frosch12> so "your community" can just assume 11.1 was the last release ever
20:28:22  <dP> glx, maybe but it needs a complete rewrite and they have no coders
20:28:23  <frosch12> it's the same
20:29:00  <frosch12> if the only thing you accept is "nothing may change", just stick with the same version, tags don't change
20:29:36  <frosch12> and saying A must not change things, because B has noone to update stuff, what's even the point?
20:30:04  <dP> frosch12, it's one thing to say "we break a, b, c" because and onother is to not even bother documenting a braking change of supposedly stable api :p
20:30:31  <frosch12> what stable API was broken?
20:30:36  <dP> admin port?
20:30:45  <frosch12> contents of p1 and p2 were never stable
20:30:53  <michi_cc> The only stable thing on the admin port API was the number of bytes send. Contents was never stable.
20:30:56  <dP> yeah, but packet structure changed
20:31:08  <dP> anything that worked with that call is likely broken
20:31:24  <LordAro> regardless, this is only going into the next major version
20:31:29  <LordAro> we're allowed to break things in major versions
20:31:45  <LordAro> (perhaps it could be documented better, but we're a long way off that being necessary)
20:31:47  <michi_cc> Well, would have been exactly the same if we'd added a p3 because some number finally got too big.
20:32:31  <glx> true, the packet structure changed, but if any format of p1 or p2 would change while keeping the packet, it would also break but unnoticably
20:32:40  <dP> I know it's an inevitable change, I'm just talking about the way it's presented
20:33:28  <frosch12> what did you expect? a RFC and 6 months for parties to reply?
20:33:49  <glx> I like the idea of request for command list and data format from the admin client
20:34:16  <glx> something similar to savegame chunk headers
20:34:30  <TrueBrain> did you say JSON?
20:34:31  <TrueBrain> :P
20:34:33  <frosch12> glx: getting the "name" of the command parameters may be harder :)
20:34:44  <frosch12> the types you can probably get via the template magic
20:34:57  <dP> frosch12, doing at least something about it :p
20:34:59  <frosch12> TrueBrain: that was me :)
20:35:21  <michi_cc> Yeah, stringify is the one thing you still need the preprocessor for :)
20:35:23  <dP> yeah, sending some kind of schema would help admin port immensely and probably not only admin port
20:35:56  <glx> btw some doxygen comments require an update (mostly the tuple return ones)
20:36:18  <LordAro> would be a good use for some sort of doxygen group
20:38:59  <frosch12> it may also be possible to put the command-handler declaration into the DEF_CMD_TRAIT macro, so the macro gets the parameter names and expands into botht the trait stuff and the command-handler function declaration
20:39:00  <glx> oh cmake could probably populate a table with the names
20:40:31  <Xaroth> could always use some XML file with an XLS transformer to build the relevant source files /s
20:41:01  <frosch12> does XSLT support JDNI?
20:41:05  <andythenorth> isn't that how we build grfs now?
20:41:19  <Xaroth> I'm sur ethat can be implemented.
20:41:27  <andythenorth> can we extend grf spec that way?
20:41:47  <andythenorth> if we convert to java, can grfs just inject new java classe?
20:41:50  <andythenorth> classes *
20:42:12  * andythenorth is aware that -vulns- features are not _caused_ by the language
20:42:27  <andythenorth> oh there was a java port of openttd on github?
20:42:38  <frosch12> andythenorth: i played ottd with the team@work this week. they commented on: we download a zip, when we start the binary it prompts us to download more stuff (baseset), and when we join the game it prompts again to download even more stuff
20:42:52  <andythenorth> never download anything
20:43:50  <frosch12> andythenorth: the ottd java port ported ottd 0.4.something, so they probably used log4j 1.x :p
20:44:12  <dP> frosch12, did you only realise this issue now when it's kinda fixed with steam? :p
20:44:46  <glx> hey at least openttd always ask before doing anything
20:44:59  <dP> glx, lies :p
20:45:14  <glx> same with TURN
20:45:15  <dP> it scans saved servers without asking anything
20:45:35  <glx> but the player added them to the list
20:45:42  <glx> his call :)
20:45:51  <dP> iirc they get added automatically
20:45:54  <frosch12> bananas list is also queried directly when opening the gui
20:45:55  <dP> like last joined
20:46:11  <frosch12> i had a similar idea for the multiplayer list, but then the tropic got zorged
20:46:17  <dP> btw, I'm not saying that's bad
20:46:22  <TrueBrain> tropic, lol
20:46:32  <dP> yeah, mp list should be auto queried imo
20:46:37  <dP> I even did that in cmclient
20:47:08  <frosch12> TrueBrain: want a cookie? i may be baking in the next 2 weeks
20:47:18  <TrueBrain> YES!
20:47:21  <TrueBrain> do you bring it over?
20:47:24  <glx> and zorg has a point about the LAN/internet split
20:47:40  <glx> it's not really user friendly
20:48:20  <frosch12> my idea for multiplayer list was to make it like a tab-box: 3 buttons at top "public", "private", "LAN"
20:48:35  <frosch12> "private" contains the saved servers + invite codes
20:48:41  <frosch12> the other two lists scan for servers
20:48:50  <frosch12> ottd remembers the tab selection
20:49:02  <TrueBrain> yes!
20:49:03  <TrueBrain> build it plz
20:49:04  <TrueBrain> :D
20:49:05  <frosch12> so, if people only use the public tab, they get scaned immediately
20:49:09  <dP> I was thinking of some favorite mark for servers
20:49:25  <frosch12> TrueBrain: i already have another holiday project
20:49:30  <TrueBrain> cookies?
20:49:42  <frosch12> cookies won't take that long :p
20:49:46  <TrueBrain> TrueGRF?
20:49:57  <frosch12> that's your project
20:50:13  <TrueBrain> fixing log4j correctly? (by doing it in Python)
20:50:17  <dP> while we're on the tropic, join button should download newgrfs if it can, at most just ask for confirmation
20:50:28  <frosch12> shall i become your manager and tell you what to do? i can do it on a "the computer should read the authors' mind" level
20:50:29  <glx> btw #9745 needs to be reviewed ;)
20:50:51  <TrueBrain> okay, I am out of guesses .. what will your holiday project be? :D
20:50:59  <frosch12> glx: did you ask the community?
20:51:19  <glx> no API changes, I'm safe ;)
20:51:20  <Xaroth> The community declares that they were not asked.
20:52:05  <frosch12> glx: the AIs can no longer read the new-game settings when started on a dedicated server
20:52:08  <frosch12> that is an API change
20:53:41  <TrueBrain> frosch12: now telllll mmmeeeeeeeeee
20:56:13  <frosch12> no :p
20:56:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: frosch is being mean
20:56:47  <frosch12> don't worry, i'll only make a prototype, and then ask the community whether to continue or burn it
20:57:39  <TrueBrain> lol .. now I am really curious :D
20:57:54  <TrueBrain> as long as it doesn't require a DHCP server to do basic math ...
20:59:07  <michi_cc> Isn't basic math nowadays done by getting apropriate operator classes via JNDI?
20:59:17  <glx> <-- ah yes that was a nice one, surpassed by JNDI
20:59:19  * andythenorth needs a holiday project
20:59:27  <andythenorth> currently it's 'the world is burning'
20:59:31  <andythenorth> which is getting boring
20:59:43  <TrueBrain> am I your holiday project? pretty eyes
20:59:58  <Xaroth> andythenorth: log4ottd.
21:00:28  <andythenorth> do we ship any exciting vulns?
21:00:34  <andythenorth> there must be one somewhere
21:00:49  <frosch12> TrueBrain: my project is in danger of being zorged when published, i may send them to truegrf for distraction
21:01:03  <TrueBrain> sounds fair
21:01:24  <frosch12> andythenorth: pretty sure you can find buffer-overruns exploitable by newgrf
21:04:52  <andythenorth> we've made a noun of it now?
21:05:00  <andythenorth> Horse got zorged
21:06:31  <TrueBrain> I liky
21:06:38  <frosch12> isn't it a verb?
21:07:11  <andythenorth> yes it's a verb
21:07:14  <andythenorth> I can't English
21:07:21  <andythenorth> oh lol, this just got more fun
21:07:36  <glx> it's endless
21:08:01  <frosch12> oh, i thought you were referring to that, when you asked about "next year" earlier today
21:09:10  <andythenorth> only just found it :P
21:09:41  <andythenorth> it's 2 days ago eh
21:09:43  * andythenorth behind the curve
21:10:11  <TrueBrain> so you just finished patching? GOI AGAIN! :)
21:11:45  <frosch12> depends whether you went for the "upgrade version" or "delete class in jar" route :)
21:11:49  <frosch12> (afaik)
21:12:56  <frosch12> aw, now i remember the information my company deployed to its customers...
21:13:39  <frosch12> it was basically a copy&paste from other sources with a friendly "patch it yourself" :p
21:14:34  <glx> log4j seems to contain very complex features many users don't even need
21:15:18  <glx> or use
21:15:35  <glx> but it still open the door
21:16:14  <frosch12> andythenorth: that article seems outdates as well. the *fun* part of the new CVE was: it was first classified with score 3, and then upgraded to 9 this morning
21:16:36  <TrueBrain> at least it is not a 10
21:16:49  <glx> first one was a 10 IIRC
21:17:02  <TrueBrain> I am happy you got the reference :P
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21:20:57  <andythenorth> we don't even have to patch
21:21:07  <andythenorth> we just have to contact every single vendor to find out if they've patched
21:21:23  <andythenorth> it's a real fucker, because in many cases the answers are really not good enough
21:21:38  <andythenorth> there was a real 'yolo christmas' attitude going on
21:23:00  <frosch12> well, at least 2.16 does the change that everyone thought would have been the correct fix for the first CVE, instead of the weird thing that was 2.15
21:27:12  <glx> the only valid options
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21:54:09  <SpComb> nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure
21:56:06  <frosch12> too late, it has already left the planet. it spread to mars vehicles
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21:56:56  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we're doing it wrong :)
21:57:01  <andythenorth> but probably all fine, right?
21:57:39  <SpComb> did they really go and delete their tweet...
21:57:44  <frosch12> lol, they actually deleted the tweet i quoted yesterday
21:58:04  <frosch12> SpComb: yeah, i was just searching for it, i linked it here two days ago
21:58:37  <frosch12> it was june or july this year, barely a half year ago
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22:00:06  <andythenorth> deleting tweets is the new in thing
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22:06:24  <SpComb> bad form IMO
22:07:03  <frosch12> back to memes: the new CVE is labeled "return of the JNDI"
22:09:01  <andythenorth> ha
22:09:10  <andythenorth> at least we still have lolz
22:10:05  <frosch12> i like that string that combines patterns of JNDI, bash, SQL, ... escaping tests :)
22:16:49  <frosch12> so many new memes \o/
22:18:21  <andythenorth> the iOS exploit I pasted this morning was quite interesting
22:18:30  <andythenorth> not nearly as funny, but really incredibly smart
22:18:50  <andythenorth> remember I used to joke about encoding nfo via bitmaps?
22:18:58  <andythenorth> and reading them with PIL
22:19:11  <andythenorth> pretty much that
22:19:31  <frosch12> for which agency are you working?
22:19:44  <frosch12> or do you sell to everyone?
22:20:09  <andythenorth> I can only offer bugs
22:20:11  <andythenorth> not exploits
22:20:17  <andythenorth> probably negative market value
22:21:28  <glx> andy is good at finding bugs
22:22:10  <glx> you really should try the nml station thing, if there are bugs you'll probably find them :)
22:22:31  <frosch12> andythenorth: <- first comment :)
22:22:48  <andythenorth> I really should try the nml station thing
22:22:54  <andythenorth> how much CHIPS did you convert? :D
22:23:16  <andythenorth> I started
22:23:17  <glx> it's not a real conversion, mostly a test of the implementatin
22:23:45  <andythenorth> ok so I'm not duplicating effort if I start converting
22:23:47  <glx> I converted cow pen as an example in nml source tree
22:23:50  <andythenorth> or reimplement from scratch
22:24:29  <glx> and magic tiles as an advanced testing
22:25:40  <glx> it works but may not be the best way to do it
22:27:49  <andythenorth> ok CHIPS soon :)
22:29:36  <glx> btw direct conversion of CHIPS is not possible, because nml only supports 2 different versions for callbacks, while CHIPS uses 3
22:30:41  <frosch12> what versions?
22:30:41  <glx> CHIPS does cargo, non-cargo and purchase, NML only has cargo and purchase
22:31:31  <frosch12> ah you mean the "sprite for unknown cargo"
22:31:46  <glx> yup
22:32:08  <glx> CHIPS has 3 different cb14 chains
22:32:37  <glx> while nml only supports cb14 and cb14_purchase
22:32:58  <glx> because for most features it's enough :)
22:33:00  <frosch12> but why 3? isn't it purchase+unknown+(any known cargo), so up to 256 cases?
22:33:37  <frosch12> oh, right... it also matters for the callback, not just the sprites
22:34:31  <frosch12> yeah, i think it's a good idea to not add that to nml :)
22:35:24  <glx> the "unknown" is easy to work around when coding in nml, just use an invisible cargo
22:36:18  <frosch12> the cargotype only matters for the little/lots stuff, it's weird that chips uses different layouts as well
22:36:58  <glx> one layout per different non cargo decoration yes
22:37:05  * andythenorth might just restart from scratch :)
22:37:11  <andythenorth> I'll never understand it properly otherwise
22:37:32  <glx> while it could use advanced feature of the advanced layout it already uses
22:38:06  <glx> in my test conversion I used only one layout
22:39:09  <glx> but doing that in pure NFO would have been a real pain
22:39:28  * andythenorth must to sleep :)
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22:40:15  <glx> managing all the var10 thing by "hand"
22:41:01  <glx> while being also templated
22:45:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9725: Template DoCommand and friends
22:51:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9745: Fix #9720: Delay start of GS/AI to after loading of savegame
22:53:55  <frosch12> sorry, mostly asking questions. to tired to look it up myself :)
23:07:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9745: Fix #9720: Delay start of GS/AI to after loading of savegame
23:08:00  <glx> good questions :)
23:11:10  <glx> oh indeed the enum can be enclosed in the ScriptInstance class
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