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01:02:47 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 02:09:53 *** PeteH has quit IRC 02:10:39 *** PeteH has joined #openttd 02:25:53 *** PeteH has quit IRC 02:26:01 *** PeteH has joined #openttd 03:14:22 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 03:31:21 *** Kitrana1 has joined #openttd 03:33:30 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:34:15 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 03:38:04 *** glx has quit IRC 03:50:02 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:53:24 *** debdog has quit IRC 04:00:53 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 04:12:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #9043: Feature: ability to build overlapping bridges on different axes https://git.io/JOWU8 05:35:49 <supermop_Home> ok i got that to work. now i have cute little tropic houses 05:47:44 *** _aD has quit IRC 06:54:47 *** OsteHovel has joined #openttd 07:28:55 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 08:12:32 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 08:32:30 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 08:34:04 *** Xaroth has quit IRC 08:35:02 *** OsteHovel has quit IRC 08:38:39 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 08:42:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:01:15 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:06:44 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 09:12:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:15:21 <peter1138> oh 09:43:13 *** Xaroth has joined #openttd 10:02:45 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 10:44:07 *** quinibuzz has joined #openttd 10:47:10 <quinibuzz> I got an error "Unexpected end-of-file." when I was trying to upload a simple scenario in BaNaNaS. It´s a heightmap with real cities in the right place. Anyone can help me? 10:50:46 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:57:04 <LordAro> quinibuzz: what version have you used to create this? 11:03:00 <quinibuzz> last one 11:03:11 <quinibuzz> 12.1 11:03:12 <LordAro> that's not a version 11:03:16 <LordAro> hmm 11:03:18 <Wolf01> Classic 11:03:55 <LordAro> the file upload could've failed, i suppose 11:04:02 <LordAro> have you tried more than once? 11:04:08 <quinibuzz> yes 11:04:14 <quinibuzz> I changed the file name also 11:04:25 <LordAro> bananas scenario upload does some basic parsing of the file to make sure its valid 11:04:41 <LordAro> i suppose it's possible something's been missed somewhere 11:05:05 <FLHerne> quinibuzz: Can you upload the .scn somewhere else so we can look at it? 11:05:11 <quinibuzz> sure 11:06:30 <quinibuzz> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m1LtA7zJRf5tXNI0Dx0DwTg4CqCujmLK/view?usp=sharing 11:07:34 <quinibuzz> I just want to share with the commuty something I was missing for myself. It´s just a simple heightmap of Spain with the province capitals in it. 11:15:33 <quinibuzz> I have to leave. Thanks for the help. I will try again later. Have a nice day. 11:15:38 *** quinibuzz has quit IRC 11:16:40 <andythenorth> 4 million cargos when? 11:17:15 <SpComb> 24-bit cargo depth 11:22:55 *** roadt_ has quit IRC 11:23:08 *** roadt_ has joined #openttd 11:33:21 <andythenorth> meh 11:33:30 <andythenorth> weird cargo scaling is weird 12:08:09 <peter1138> new map array when? 12:10:46 <TrueBrain> I expect michi_cc to work on that next :p 12:11:28 <peter1138> templated magic everywhere :D 12:13:36 <TrueBrain> go big or go home, right? :D 12:13:37 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Bit outdated and not all I have somewhere, but... https://github.com/michicc/OpenTTD/commits/newmap 12:13:52 <TrueBrain> I rest my case ;) 12:14:12 <TrueBrain> I love the "Exterminate TileExtended" commit 12:14:15 <TrueBrain> sounds like a good start :P 12:16:39 <TrueBrain> I always wonder what these kind of changes do for the speed of the game 12:16:42 <TrueBrain> if it has any real impact or not 12:18:03 <andythenorth> profiling! 12:18:45 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: do I get it right that in your idea you basically daisy chain structs on a single tile? 12:18:47 * andythenorth might rage quit FIRS for a bit :P 12:18:49 <andythenorth> oof 12:18:54 <andythenorth> cargo flow brain mess 12:20:47 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Yes, which is close to what Chris Sawyer did for RCT and Lomo. 12:21:35 <TrueBrain> its a nice idea 12:21:36 <michi_cc> When all the rearranging is done, the tile structure itself should become quite a bit smaller, which hopefully averages out to not more memory than now. 12:21:52 <TrueBrain> memory is not that relevant anymore 12:21:55 <TrueBrain> CPU however ... :P 12:26:04 <_dp_> memory is kinda important for servers that run multiple instances 12:26:31 <_dp_> but yeah, cpu is way more important in general, especially in the vehicle ticks 12:33:37 <nielsm> the reason for splitting the landscape up has originally been to make lookups faster, iirc: multiple of 8 instead of multiple of 12 per tile... but what that does for cache lines is another question 12:34:24 <nielsm> and is modern hardware really slower at multiplying by 12 for an address lookup than the loss of memory locality for the two parts of the tile structure? 12:34:38 <TrueBrain> we checked that pretty recently 12:34:43 <TrueBrain> performance dropped like a mofo :P 12:35:09 <nielsm> how bad would it be to just add another 4 bytes to the landscape instead? :D 12:35:51 <nielsm> it's just another 64 MB for a 4096 square map 12:35:52 <nielsm> !!!! 12:36:08 <TrueBrain> yeah, memory is nothing to really worry about ;) 12:36:44 <_dp_> unbitstuffing some stuff can probably also help the performance 12:37:34 <TrueBrain> but mainly I was wondering what michi_cc 's branch does performance wise .. better? worse? Lot better? Lot worse? :) Or do you first need to finish everything before you can say anything about that? 12:37:38 <_dp_> also adding some stuff that didn't fit like snow layer for objects and industries 12:40:15 <nielsm> how would it work if the landscape was changed to be an array of most basic things (height level, ???) and then a field denoting tile type followed by an index into an array chosen by the tile type 12:40:32 <Rubidium> it's not only the memory and CPU instructions that count, but cache locality probably counts even more 12:40:42 <nielsm> not quite stacked landscape, but having e.g. an array of clear land tiles, an array of farmland tiles, an array of road tiles, an array of rail station tiles, etc 12:41:21 <nielsm> and level crossings could possibly be done as a level crossing tile type that points to a road tile and a rail tile, to allow full data for each 12:42:05 <_dp_> not sure about farmland but separating infra would be nice 12:42:11 <_dp_> infra can even be 3d actually 12:43:41 <_dp_> may not even need pointers from the land array as there are plenty of structures that can do range queries 12:43:59 <_dp_> and it doesn't seem that frequently needed 12:44:43 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: In the state you can see (or the state I have locally) performance will definitely be worse. In the end it will probably still have a hit, but hopefully one that is not too large. 12:44:58 <TrueBrain> pretty nifty 12:45:14 <TrueBrain> its funny you recycle an idea of the original author of TT :P 12:45:17 <TrueBrain> that has some irony 12:55:28 <_dp_> michi_cc, your map structure looks very much like a hash table 12:55:35 <_dp_> and not the most effecient kind... 12:57:04 <michi_cc> _dp_: It's not a hash table. It's an array of arrays, and the order of the sub-tiles matters very much. 12:58:00 <TrueBrain> what do you need to actually finish that michi_cc ? And do you consider it viable? :) 12:58:04 <_dp_> michi_cc, array of arrays is one of the ways to make a hash table 12:58:25 <_dp_> michi_cc, only difference is that instead of somewhat random hash you have a sequential tile index 13:17:14 <peter1138> If performance is bad, maybe you'd have to remove 4096x size maps... ;) 13:17:31 <TrueBrain> yes! who added that again? 13:17:32 <TrueBrain> :D 13:19:28 <_dp_> 4k map by itself doesn't lag that much, only about the same as 1000 vehicles 13:19:33 <_dp_> 2000 if it's a full water map 13:19:38 <michi_cc> _dp_: Yes, but one of the defining things of a hash table is usually that it is unordered, which the map array isn't at all. 13:23:34 <_dp_> michi_cc, by order you mean random access vs sequential? 13:23:48 <_dp_> it's actually a good question what kind of operations openttd needs the most 13:27:25 <michi_cc> _dp_: I mean that at least for what I did, the order of tile structs in the sub-"arrays" has to follow certain rules. And of course the top-level array is also ordered in that it is indexed by a sequential number. 13:27:44 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I need more of the universal currency that is always in short supply: time :p 13:28:27 <TrueBrain> well, pretty sure several of us can donate some of that too :P 13:35:23 <_dp_> michi_cc, that's just an implementation detail, in the end all you do is associate some tile structs with a tile index, no? 13:36:06 <michi_cc> Yes, right now there is one tile struct for one tile index, in my branch there's an array of tile structs per tile index. 13:37:44 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:37:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:46:01 <_dp_> so what I mean is that you do an associative array, and typical solution for those is either a hash table or a tree 13:46:25 <_dp_> so question kinda is why did you do your own thing and can't it be improved by using standard solutions and tricks 13:53:39 <_dp_> like, for an obvious example yours seem to be pretty bad at adding elements 13:53:48 <_dp_> which I guess is kind of ok for openttd 13:54:34 <_dp_> but still having a complexity of O(dy * map_size_x) for each rail or road may be excessive 14:19:43 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 14:26:53 * andythenorth adds munitions and tanks 14:26:56 <michi_cc> Cache locality is quite important for map access. As a large map will obviously not fit in cache completely, random tile access is always likely to miss, but access is also often for adjacent tiles, which can benefit from contiguous memory. 14:26:57 <andythenorth> this may be regrettable 14:35:17 <_dp_> michi_cc, yeah, but that's just general thoughts, would be nice to analyze what operations openttd needs in more detail first 14:35:52 <_dp_> also I'd guess diferrent tile types are accessed together and need different operations, so it may be better to split them in several structures 14:36:06 <_dp_> like road/rail is mostly needed for pathfinding 14:36:41 <_dp_> so having it in the land array can decrease locality for land operations 14:37:15 <_dp_> though I guess there isn't that much infra compared to the total amount of tiles 14:40:30 <_dp_> but storing rail tiles together can increase locality for pathfinder actually 14:43:00 <supermop_Home> god morning 14:43:06 <supermop_Home> or good 14:47:41 <supermop_Home> so i guess most houses don't actually use CC to color bits 14:58:30 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:59:40 <andythenorth> what to label the nuclear chain cargos? 15:00:00 <andythenorth> nuclear fuel rods, spent waste, nuclear fuel? 15:00:07 * andythenorth vague 15:02:25 <supermop_Home> UOX? 15:02:43 <supermop_Home> UROD? 15:04:13 <supermop_Home> what's the convention on drawing swimming pools? 15:04:26 <Rubidium> SNM_? 15:04:35 <supermop_Home> dark blue ocean water with waves or a light turquoise? 15:04:51 <supermop_Home> U235? 15:05:13 <andythenorth> aren't there default flats with a rooftop pool? 15:06:10 <andythenorth> supermop_Home standard ocean blue 15:06:25 <andythenorth> temperate town hotel rooftop pool 15:06:43 * andythenorth wonders if the nuclear chain is deadly dull 15:20:35 <michi_cc> Include protesters cargo as alt pax :) 15:23:51 <supermop_Home> temperate hotel pool always looked a little too rough and frigid to be enjoyable 15:24:01 <supermop_Home> with like 6' waves 15:26:23 <supermop_Home> one of the worst parts of tropic base houses is that there are so few of them 15:30:55 <supermop_Home> andythenorth i think shipping the reactor vessels and turbines to the plant under construction is probably more interesting that the relatives small feul 15:30:57 <supermop_Home> fuel 15:31:07 <andythenorth> fuel can be heavy due to the casks :P 15:31:09 <andythenorth> but yes 15:31:21 * andythenorth just keeps running out of cargos 15:31:26 <andythenorth> 16 million cargos when? 15:31:26 <supermop_Home> it only goes maybe a couple times a year at most 15:32:01 <supermop_Home> of course the vessels only go once every 30 years 15:33:07 <supermop_Home> make the nuclear plant be 'under construction' for years, and you have to ship it enough concrete, equipment and pipes 15:33:18 <andythenorth> and money 15:33:32 <supermop_Home> and same for a coal plant 15:34:53 <supermop_Home> then once its done, boost production at any nearby aluminum plants 15:36:14 <andythenorth> we might want to add explicit power grid one day 15:36:22 <andythenorth> extensible with defined 'power types' 15:36:32 <andythenorth> it can be faked with town storage, but it's got no UI 15:36:36 <andythenorth> so player is 'wtf?' 15:57:04 <supermop_Home> sooo there are apartment buildings on the base set sprite sheet for tropic with blue bits... but they aren't CC? 16:14:16 <supermop_Home> can i add recoloring to a replace block? 16:16:36 <supermop_Home> hmm 16:16:37 <supermop_Home> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_TTD_sprites 16:16:55 <supermop_Home> "A series of real (or recolour) sprites has to be specified between the curly braces " 16:24:34 <supermop_Home> too weird to replace the tropic church with a Shinto shrine? 16:27:12 <supermop_Home> this temple looks sort of church like and has the tropic art deco style i'd like: https://goo.gl/maps/soEK6XdYXhTB9sw78 16:27:29 <supermop_Home> but a shrine might fit in better with these little houses 16:29:25 <supermop_Home> this one is like shrine upstairs and office building downstairs: https://goo.gl/maps/QtUnY183aiBWXbnd9 16:40:30 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:48:40 <supermop_Home> well this project's aim was to make the houses and apartment buildings in the tropic base set look more like Hawaii and less like the vaguely Spanish mission style the houses are in ogfx 16:49:13 <supermop_Home> but as a baseset i need most of the building to look at home in 1930 and earlier 16:49:56 <supermop_Home> and from 1910-1930, it seems like the most common architectural style for major buildings in Honolulu was......Spanish Mission style 16:50:27 <supermop_Home> oops 17:10:18 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:22:10 *** gelignite has quit IRC 17:25:24 *** Flygon has quit IRC 18:30:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 18:36:08 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 18:37:06 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 18:53:32 *** Kitrana has joined #openttd 18:58:25 *** Kitrana1 has quit IRC 19:10:55 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 19:12:45 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 19:17:47 *** Kitrana1 has joined #openttd 19:21:05 *** Kitrana2 has joined #openttd 19:22:05 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 19:25:50 *** Kitrana1 has quit IRC 19:41:45 *** Tirili has quit IRC 19:46:10 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 19:48:21 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 19:53:23 *** tokai has joined #openttd 19:53:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 20:00:25 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 20:16:31 <andythenorth> so did we agree to increase to 128 cargos ? 20:16:46 *** dale has joined #openttd 20:20:16 <supermop_Home> first you need to tell me what early 20th century building i should use to replace the tall tropic apartments 20:24:11 <andythenorth> hmmm 20:24:32 <supermop_Home> https://sah-archipedia.org/buildings/HI-01-OA34 20:27:00 <supermop_Home> https://sah-archipedia.org/buildings/HI-01-OA125 20:27:50 <supermop_Home> https://sah-archipedia.org/buildings/HI-01-OA24 20:28:25 <supermop_Home> https://sah-archipedia.org/buildings/HI-01-OA49 20:29:18 <supermop_Home> https://sah-archipedia.org/buildings/HI-01-OA35 20:34:34 <supermop_Home> most of those aren't apartment buildings, but they would at least look sensible in a city core in 1930 or earlier 20:46:49 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 20:53:37 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 20:54:06 *** Tirili has quit IRC 20:59:13 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 21:10:54 <andythenorth> AWS bill again 21:10:57 <andythenorth> £0.70 21:10:59 <andythenorth> oof 21:14:50 <dwfreed> andythenorth: really gonna break the bank there 21:18:24 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd 21:18:33 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 21:28:57 *** Gustavo6046_ has quit IRC 21:29:02 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 21:34:13 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:40:33 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 22:34:37 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:38:33 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 22:52:18 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:33:02 <supermop_Home> it seems most of the train people here know each other 23:33:33 *** andythenorth has quit IRC